Blake Lively, Nancy Guthrie, Diddy - Memorable True Crime Moments with Megyn, Mark, and Matt

Summary

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MK True Crime – Episode Summary

Podcast: MK True Crime
Host: MK Media (Megyn Kelly)
Episode: Blake Lively, Nancy Guthrie, Diddy - Memorable True Crime Moments with Megyn, Mark, and Matt
Date: May 29, 2026

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Episode Overview

This lively and hard-hitting episode assembles Megyn Kelly with legal experts Mark Murphy and Matt Garagos to dissect several high-profile true crime stories dominating headlines: the botched Nancy Guthrie kidnapping investigation, updates on Blake Lively’s contentious legal settlement, shocking Diddy (Sean Combs) trial developments, and pivotal moments in infamous celebrity cases including Michael Jackson. The hosts blend sharp legal insight, war stories, and candid commentary on the media’s evolving role in shaping true crime narratives.

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Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. The Nancy Guthrie Kidnapping: Law Enforcement, Media, and Misinformation

Main theme: Analysis of law enforcement missteps and the impact of media coverage in the ongoing Nancy Guthrie missing persons case.

• Takedown of Local Sheriff:

  • Mark Murphy and Matt Garagos both zero in on the Pima County Sheriff, sharply critiquing his handling of the case.
    • Mark: “This may be kind of a blueprint for how you don’t investigate a case … this sheriff has just been atrocious, in my opinion.” (01:39)
    • Matt: “This has been a clown show from day one … They’re being misserved, I think the family’s being miss-served.” (04:28)

• Role of Media and Online Evidence:

  • Megyn reveals her team uncovered an old 2013 Today Show segment showing Nancy’s bedroom, casting doubt on supposed “insider” ransom note details.
    • “If we wanted to … write a demand for ransom in bitcoin and send it in and sound credible, we might take a detail from the outside of the house … couple it with a few details from the inside of Nancy’s bedroom, which we had seen thanks to a little bit of research … and convince somebody that we were the kidnappers.” (03:06)

• Media Coverage: Blessing or Curse?

  • Debate over whether the relentless media attention aids or hinders investigations:
    • Megyn: “Every missing person, their family in this nation would give anything to have the kind of media coverage of the case that Nancy Guthrie has received. The media is a blessing, not a curse.” (08:48)

Notable Quote

“There are hardworking, you know, women and men in law enforcement on the ground level … and they're being misserved. I think the family's being miss-served.”
— Matt Garagos (06:07)

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2. Blake Lively’s Legal Battle: Attorney’s Fees, Lawsuit Spin, and “Anti-SLAPP”

Main theme: Dissection of the legal technicalities and media spin following Blake Lively’s disputed defamation settlement.

• Breakdown of Settlement Spin:

  • Discussion centers on Blake Lively’s legal team promoting a victory regarding attorney’s fees, which panelists say is a misleading narrative.
    • Matt: “Let me tell you why our client is happy, ecstatic with this settlement … it gives her the power and the opportunity to pursue what we believe is her most potent and powerful claim …” (11:13)
    • Megyn: “What a revisionist history, Garagos.” (12:18)
    • Mark: “Blake Lively’s claims were just gutted like a rainbow trout.” (13:04)

• Legal Nuance: Anti-SLAPP Statutes

  • Mark and Matt explain California’s Anti-SLAPP law and how it applies to attorney’s fees in dismissed defamation cross-claims.
    • Mark: “This is what's called anti-SLAPP … if you prevail, you can get your attorney’s fees if somebody comes after you. … But it's always gonna come out of the insurance company pockets.” (12:30, 14:13)

Notable Quotes

“This in fact was her most potent and powerful claim all along for the attorney’s fees expended defending his defamation claim.”
— Megan (13:04)

“[If] you cross complain … that’s basically what it is, stripping you of your rights.”
— Mark Murphy (14:13)

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3. Celeste Rivas Homicide: Grand Juries, Evidence, and Prosecution Doubts

Main theme: A deep dive into the successful arrest in the Celeste Rivas murder, the use of a grand jury, and the intricacies of proving motive and guilt.

• Prosecutorial Strategy:

  • Matt explains the DA leveraged a grand jury to subpoena reluctant witnesses and force cooperation.
    • “There’s two functions for a grand jury — one, you can seek an indictment. The other is … bring in reluctant witnesses …” (17:02)
  • DA Beth Silverman praised for her tenacity, but Mark speculates LAPD’s arrest was a strategic move to force the DA’s hand (19:12).

• Complicated Evidence Chain:

  • Medical examiner evidence (sharps instrument, severed fingers, toxicology).
  • Child pornography found on suspect’s phone strengthens the prosecution’s case.
    • “You are … basically on third base … because the jury will hate him so much for just such as the child pornography.” (25:51)

• Lawyer Banter and Legal Tactics:

  • Explains nuances of California preliminary hearings (Prop 115, Penal Code 866) and strategic moves by defense and prosecution.
    • Mark: “If they try to bare bones what we call 115 prelim … the only way we’re going to say that that gives you due process is if the defense can … call witnesses.” (24:01)

Notable Moment

The co-hosts indulge in playful trash talk about “slut-shaming” each other for appearing on rival podcasts, underscoring their camaraderie amid heavy topics. (22:11–23:04)

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4. The Michael Jackson “Bashir” Moment: Media, Prosecution & Public Perception

Main theme: Re-examination of the infamous Martin Bashir interview and its role in the downfall of Michael Jackson.

• Media’s Power to Shift Public Perception:

  • The panel revisits the moment Jackson said, “It’s very loving. That’s what the world needs now, more Love, Mark.” (27:54)
  • Mark: “At the time … every sane person recoils … was an insurmountable … thing to get over.” (28:00)

• Prosecutorial Perspective:

  • Matt: “As a prosecutor, you always want as many statements to the defendant as possible … It doesn’t take much to shift the public perception.” (30:15)
  • Comparison made to the Prince Andrew disaster interview, demonstrating how media can upend legal defenses.

Notable Quotes

“Always remember, never forget: the way these people think doesn't stop simply because they've gotten into trouble …”
— Matt Garagos (30:15)

“It’s very right. It's very loving. That’s what the world needs now, more Love, Mark.”
— Michael Jackson, via archival clip (27:54)

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5. Diddy (Sean Combs) Legal Saga: Sentencing, Acquitted Conduct, and Federal Court Realities

Main theme: The hosts dissect the latest courtroom action in the Diddy prosecution, focusing on federal sentencing guidelines and the controversial use of “acquitted conduct.”

• Federal Sentencing:

  • Mark: “In federal court, you can be acquitted. … you got nicked on one count and they’re still coming after you for the stuff that the jury said you didn’t do. … I think I’ve lost my bet already.” (35:23)
  • The judge’s intent to consider acquitted conduct is highlighted as both permissible and problematic.
    • Matt: “That acquitted conduct thing was a … big deal in federal sentencing circles … The judge had no problem today coming in and saying, yeah, I’m going to consider this conduct.” (36:45)

• Prison Time Calculations:

  • Mark explains the realities of federal time versus state (44:51).
    • “If he gets 60 or 70 months, he’s going to do real time and … because of the pending … what kinds of findings does the judge make?”
  • Discussion of the impact of probation, judge’s discretion, and the effect of conduct within jail (e.g., booking speaking engagements while incarcerated).

Notable Quotes

“There’s the only thing more powerful than a federal judge on the planet Earth is God himself. Right. Or herself, I guess, in the modern era.”
— Matt Garagos (40:02)

“It's the difference between going to summer camp and then having to watch yourself at all times.”
— Mark Murphy, on types of federal facilities (44:51)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Law Enforcement Failures:
  “This may be kind of a blueprint for how you don’t investigate a case … this sheriff has just been atrocious.”
  — Mark Murphy (01:39)

• On Media’s Role:
  “The media is a blessing, not a curse. There’s some downside. I don’t deny that. But it’s way more upside …”
  — Megyn Kelly (08:48)

• On Case Spin:
  “What a revisionist history, Garagos.”
  — Megyn Kelly (12:18)

• On Public Perception:
  “It doesn’t take much to shift the public perception or another … As a prosecutor, you always want them talking …”
  — Matt Garagos (30:15)

• On Federal Sentencing:
  “In federal court, you can be acquitted … and they’re still coming after you for the stuff that the jury said you didn’t do.”
  — Mark Murphy (35:23)

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Important Timestamps

| Segment | Timestamp | |--------------------------------------------------------------|---------------| | Mark Murphy on Pima County Sheriff & Nancy Guthrie | 01:39–03:06 | | Megyn explains the impact of online “evidence” in kidnapping | 03:06–04:28 | | Matt Garagos on fake ransom notes and media manipulation | 04:28–06:07 | | The media’s role in missing person cases | 08:48 | | Blake Lively settlement audio and analysis | 11:13–15:26 | | Celeste Rivas case: Grand jury, evidence, medical examiner | 17:02–19:12 | | Legal banter and lawyer “slut-shaming” | 22:11–23:04 | | Michael Jackson’s Bashir interview & fallout | 27:17–28:54 | | Prosecutorial strategies in celebrity and abuse cases | 30:15 onward | | Diddy legal update: acquitted conduct & sentencing | 35:03–41:07 | | Federal time served explanation | 44:51–46:20 |

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Tone and Style

• The conversation is fast-moving, lively, and blends pop culture with sharp legal critique.
• Frequent humor, especially in “slut-shaming” banter and sly references to famous clients.
• Very candid assessments: not afraid to call out law enforcement, the media, or lawyers for questionable actions.
• Both technical (legal explanations) and accessible (practical examples and analogies).

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Conclusion

The episode offers a rich, incisive, and entertaining look across several current and iconic true crime cases, skillfully blending legal expertise with media analysis and memorable soundbites. Both legal professionals and general listeners will gain insight into police practices, legal “spin,” and critical court strategies that play out both in high-profile cases and everyday courtrooms.

Transcript

[Megan]

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[Mark Murphy]

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[Megan]

So Garagos, I haven't heard your take on the Nancy Guthrie case. What is it?

[Mark Murphy]

Not that, not that different from my friend and partner, Matt Murphy, this sheriff. I think all roads lead to this sheriff. And I think that, you know, it's not a surprise that I have some criticism of law enforcement. But in this particular case, this may be kind of a blueprint for how you don't investigate a case, how you don't handle the messaging around a case. And it's a tragedy anyway. Everybody has their heart goes out to it. But this sheriff has just been atrocious, in my opinion.

[Megan]

Do you have any theory, Garrigas? Just that given your lifetime and, you know, criminal defense work on whether this was a likely kidnapping, a likely murder, you know, and then of the body,

[Mark Murphy]

I always thought that the focus on the family first, which I understand and I get. But I thought that being a bicoastal elite and living between LA and New York, I missed what people were saying initially who were on the ground there that, look, this is you're very close to the border. These things happen. I think there was another, I will call it Similar case, but something that had kind of the earmarks of a. Of an abduction and that it probably was a stranger abduction for money at a certain point. And it spiraled out of control because of the super sizing of the case itself.

[Megan]

Interesting. Okay, so, Matt Murphy, you have been covering this from the beginning. And yesterday here on our show, we dropped a bit of a bombshell ourselves where we found video of Nancy Guthrie's back, which aired on the Today show in 2013. I mean, we were stunned to see it ourselves. We're putting together this Nancy Guthrie bit, and we were doing some deep research, and there it was in 2013. There's Nancy, look at this, standing in her bedroom. This is in the house from which she was taken back in 2013, though. And it shows her bed. It shows the nightside table. It shows the window right next to the bed. Very tight quarters there. And in this long back and forth she did with the Today show anchors on the set of the Today. And to me, I wondered whether law enforcement even knew this existed, because you and I, after having looked at this, could credibly convince law enforcement that we knew what Nancy bedrooms, what Nancy's bedroom looked like, how it was set up. And if we wanted to write, let's say, a demand for ransom in bitcoin and send it in and sound credible, we might take a detail from the outside of the house that was readily identifiable to anybody, like the floodlight that was dangling, and couple it with a few details from the inside of Nancy's bedroom, which we had seen thanks to a little bit of research prior to sending our notes. And convince somebody that we were the kidnappers.

[Matt Garagos]

Well, that's right. I mean, there's, as they say, the Internet lives forever. Right. And, you know, I think that, number one, I totally agree with Mark that all roads lead back to this sheriff and in. Look, I want to be fair, Meghan, but this has been a clown show from day one. You've got really good law enforcement on the ground, especially in the FBI. But I've dealt with Pima county on a big murder case out of Orange county, and they were top notch. They were absolutely professional. I don't know what has happened to Pima county since.

[Megan]

Well, reportedly a bunch of cops fled and did not like working for him and that he's lost a lot of his more experience.

[Matt Garagos]

Yeah. Who could have ever guessed that based on the performance that we've seen? I mean, it's just. I mean, I think Mark put it perfectly. It's just. It's so sad. But you know, yeah, all. So many of these, I think all of them. But if not every single one of them, most all of these ransom notes were all fake. All the stuff to Mark Stern, Harvey Levin, I think those were all fake.

[Megan]

And the Nancy Guthrie home video adds to that possibility. That's my point is like, did they know, did the sheriff know that? Because they were like, oh, they had a detail like where her watch was. I mean, I could easily say her watch was on the small bedside table right next to her bed with the old style sort of lantern looking lamp feet away from a window that was over a bookshelf that had electronics on it. I mean, I guarantee you Chef Nanos did not know about that video and could easily have bought the whole thing as credible evidence that this guy had been in her room.

[Matt Garagos]

Well, Chris Nonos demonstrated to the entire nation that he didn't know what a DNA mixture was in one of his interviews, which when he said the lab is having problems with the mixture in Florida, which is there's some lab director who's pulling his hair out or her hair out when he heard, when they heard that, which is just, it's absurd. So this guy's, you know, I don't know how old he is. I don't know, I don't know what the deal is. But it just, there are hardworking, you know, women and men in law enforcement on the ground level on this that probably haven't slept a full eight hours since this thing started. And they're being misserved. I think the family's being missserved. And you call in the media, you got to expect the loonies are going to come out and say the vampires abducted her. You got a lot of well meaning people that are going to come in with tips, trying to help that almost never go anywhere. And Mark and I have dealt with a million of those where it's like I heard noises down the street and it turns out it's the raccoons in the trash can again. Or I heard a lady screaming, but it could be my neighbor's wife. You deal with all those, you got to devote resources to those. And now in the modern era, we have scammers who attempt to take advantage and profit from the apoplectic grief of families that are going through the worst thing that a family can go through. And at the helm of this sinking ship is this guy that keeps taking to the microphones, although I think he stopped doing that a little bit. He's doing one on one interviews and now he's Coming back blasting the media on stuff. He brought the media in at the very beginning of this, and I've got no criticism of that. But it's like, dude, you gotta, gotta be prepared to answer some questions, know your evidence, and take a little bit of heat and criticism. That goes with the job.

[Megan]

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[Megan]

Mm. I mean, honestly, every missing person, their family in this nation would give anything to have the kind of media coverage of the case that Nancy Guthrie has received. The media is a blessing, not a curse. There's some downside. I don't deny that. But it's way more upside in having this much media attention on the case because they. They require 400 officers. That's how we got 400 officers on Nancy Guthrie. It wasn't just because Savannah was the daughter. It's because the media was constantly out there, constantly peppering them with demands for more information. So please spare me on the media blame. And I don't love the media, even just because I'm a part of it. I wouldn't say this if I didn't actually believe it. What we teased was the Blake Lively settlement, and her lawyers are already making a bunch of noise and also trying to spin the pre existing understanding that they were going to recover some attorney's fees because he. He sued her. He countersued her for defamation and that claim was thrown out. And there's a California statute that protects alleged victims of sexual harassment from getting sued for defamation because this is something that a lot of defendants will do, saying if you do that. And the person who was claiming to have been sexually harassed has any sort of good faith basis for saying she was sexually harassed. And your defamation lawsuit against her then gets thrown out, as it was here you are going to be able to recover your lawyer's fees against that defendant who's who filed a counterclaim for defamation. So she did get his defamation claim thrown out. She is entitled to some measure of fees. We knew that a year ago when that happened. And now that she's willingly settled all the rest of her claims, whatever existed of them, because most of her case got thrown out too. She's willingly walked away from all of them. And she's trying to spin the remainder of those fees as her big victory. She's won, you see? She's won. Meanwhile, we all knew you were getting some measure of fees. Here's her lawyer on a podcast just the other day. Hold on a second. It's what's the name of this show? The Town. And it was on May 8th on a little spin. Okay, let's listen to Sut. Is it? Well, you guys play it. You've been looking at it. I don't know which one. It's 19A.

[Matt Garagos]

So let me tell you why our client is happy, ecstatic with this settlement. The reason that our client is happy with this settlement is because it gives her the power and the opportunity to pursue what we believe is her most potent and powerful claim in a way that is efficient, in a way that is final, in a way that the defendants have no appeal rights over, and in a way that cuts off most

[Mark Murphy]

of the noise that would be surrounding this case.

[Matt Garagos]

And lets us get straight to the core issue of how the defendants retaliated against her, specifically the retaliatory lawsuit that

[Mark Murphy]

they filed that called her a liar,

[Matt Garagos]

that branded her a liar. And it's not one of these statutes where there's discretion for awarding the damages once the conditions are met. And we believe the conditions have essentially already been met.

[Mark Murphy]

And what's important about that, Matt, is

[Matt Garagos]

that they filed a $400 million defamation lawsuit against our client against Ryan Reynolds, against Leslie Sloan. They claimed that all of this was a lie. It was all made up and they

[Mark Murphy]

were going to prove it in court. They lost that. Well.

[Megan]

Oh my God. Can I just to say that this was the best claim that they had all along for attorneys fees on the thrown out defamation cross claim. That's what a. What a revisionist history, Garrett.

[Mark Murphy]

Well, first of all, this is what's called anti slap and there is this peculiar section 47.1, whatever it is that says if you prevail, you can get your attorney's fees if somebody comes after you. There's one problem with that. As you pointed out, Judge Lyman has had this on his docket, so to speak, since last year. Number one. Number two, Blake Livesley Lively's claims were just gutted like a rainbow trout.

[Megan]

No, no, you see, you don't know what you're talking about, Mark. This in fact was her most potent and powerful claim all along for the attorney's fees expended defending his defamation claim.

[Mark Murphy]

And by the way, I think if somebody were to check pacer, which is the federal electronic docket, I believe that that gentleman who was interviewed just there by the. I think that was by the Puck outlet. I think he filed a request or the. One of his brethren filed a request to augment the briefing of what has been pending since last September, asked for, I believe, a five page brief to supplement their arguments. That was.

[Megan]

And he said no.

[Mark Murphy]

Summarily denied in record time for federal court number one. Number two, remember Judge Lyman, I've said this before, I don't know him, but I knew his father. And his father, Arthur Lyman was a lion of the bar and first amendment. I mean he was one of the go to lawyers.

[Megan]

He.

[Mark Murphy]

I, I don't know that the son falls too far from the father, but his father would have been appalled by the idea of this section 47, that somehow if you cross complain that you are eliminated from the ability to pet in court, to vindicate your rights, because that's basically what it is, stripping you of your rights. I just don't think, number one, that there's going to be anything of great note, number one. Number two, remember all of this is speaking of noise. There are probably 10 insurance companies behind all of this, fighting for who's gotta pay. Reservation of rights, subrogation, indemnification. This is never gonna come out of their pockets. It's always gonna come out of the insurance company pockets.

[Megan]

Mm. So this is what I mean. I'm gonna have to look it up in black's law dictionary, Matt, but I believe this is what we call lies. What this lawyer is saying. This has been their, their purest and most potent claim all along. Most potent and most powerful. Those are lies. Take the next 22 seconds and weigh in and then we'll come back right after this break.

[Matt Garagos]

Well, the funny thing for me is watching Mark's face as we're both listening to that clip because I can see it and it's like we're both literally laughing out loud. Albert Einstein had a great. Had an great quote that applies to the practice of law. He said, if you can't explain something simply you don't understand it well enough. And I can add or it's just pure spin. And that's what we're watching.

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[Megan]

So this is big. They finally arrested this guy. We've been waiting for it since her body was in the trunk of his car. But Matt, up until now, they hadn't been able to link him to the crime, at least not in a way that they felt was sufficient for charges to be brought. Do we know what changed?

[Matt Garagos]

Well, what they did is they conducted an investigative grand jury, Megan, which is really interesting. Mark and I were talking a little bit about this yesterday. Essentially, there's two functions for a grand jury. One, you can seek an indictment. The other is you can actually use grand jury subpoenas to bring in reluctant witnesses that don't want to speak to the police and. And essentially force immunity on them and make them talk. And mark knows the D.A. involved in this? I don't know her, but apparently she's a heavy hitter, according to Mark. And they've been working this case up for a long time. This is advanced prosecutorial work. And. Yeah, and they apparently have put together this case. The complaint itself tells quite a story with lying in wait and the stabbing and killing a witness. And it makes it appear as if they got the goods here to show that he killed her because he was engaged in a sexual relationship with her. They knew each other or began seeing each other when she was only 13 years old, which is 288 under the California penal code. And it all kind of fits. I know Mark has some different theories on it. Mark probably has a better inside track on the case than I do. But this is very, very interesting, and he's in kind of an understatement. He's in a lot of trouble.

[Megan]

He's 21 currently, so by any measure, you know, having sexual relations with a 13 year old would be illegal. So, yeah, that's the alleged motive. But what we. What we last heard, Mark, was it was April 23, 2025, that he invited her to his home in the Hollywood Hills. Celeste was her name. Celeste Rivas. And she arrived there. She was never seen again. But then on September of 2025, that's when her remains were found in the trunk of a car that was registered to him. And so we kind of knew that they were having an affair. That's. That there wasn't, like, proof positive of it, but it seemed very clear from their little videos together. They were definitely friends. They were with a lot. With each other a lot. But, you know, getting from that to he's the one who put her in the trunk of that car is. That's. That's where cases are made or fall apart.

[Mark Murphy]

Well, Matt's right, as usual, about a lot of things. And in this case, he's right about the fact that the DA involved Beth Silverman is a. To say she's tenacious is an understatement. Think, though, that there is a lot more going on here. And let me kind of set the stage for it, because I don't know that I've ever seen this all before. Not only did they have a medical examiner, we know today or yesterday when the published reports were that the exam was released, and there was information as of December of last year that the medical examiner had come to the conclusion that the cause of death was use of a sharp instrument, that there were fingers that were severed and they had a toxicology that at least showed the presence of drugs. You combine that with the fact that what's being reported today also, if true, is that there was child porn, meaning images of females who were under 18 on David's phone. All of that would have been known to the DA last year. Which leads you to why was the. Why did the LAPD go in months ago, get rebuffed first and then successfully later muzzle the medical examiner to the point where the medical examiner, something I've never seen before, came out publicly and pushed back against that, put on his website a statement saying, you know, that this is not transparent, that this shouldn't happen. Not once, but twice did he do that. And then yesterday, after the DA asked that the medical report be Released. He thanked his partner. Agenc going to wildly speculate here that what happened was they arrested him on Thursday so that. I think the LAPD did that so that they could force the DA to file this case. They did not have a criminal complaint. They did not have an indictment when they arrested him. There's this weird violation, I think, constitutional violation, where you can arrest somebody on a Thursday and not put them before a magistrate until a Monday, which is beyond what the supreme court says for 48 hours. That forced the DA to come in heavy and file this case on Monday. The defense did something, I think, very astute. They said, that's fine. You can dump terabytes of information on us. We're ready for trial. Which was in contrast to what happened in the Reiner case, where they dumped terabytes of information and the public defender said, hey, I need two or three months. I don't have enough time. I think that this. The ball's back in the DA's court, and the DA may go get an indictment at this point.

[Megan]

Matt, what do you make of that? That she was dragged to a kicking and screaming by cops who were like, it's time, you know.

[Matt Garagos]

I had a conversation with Harvey Levin on TMZ about this. And of course, that's Mark's. Mark's partner on another podcast, which is sort of.

[Mark Murphy]

He called me.

[Megan]

Well, Mark is always right. You're always right, and Harvey's always wrong.

[Mark Murphy]

And by the way, Harvey even called me a slut to his words for doing Megyn Kelly True Crime with Matt. I told him, yeah, I call him a slut.

[Matt Garagos]

I told him in the miracle's cheating

[Megan]

on him is one to talk. I have another resume. How many 50,000 podcasts can I tease it on?

[Matt Garagos]

Yeah, please.

[Mark Murphy]

I was slut Shame, so I'll leave it at that.

[Matt Garagos]

Yeah, well, yeah, I'm honored that you're slutting it off. I will be doing all I can to lure you away from that, man, just so we can set the record straight. So.

[Megan]

Yes, man.

[Mark Murphy]

So we.

[Matt Garagos]

Yeah, we. We. Harvey and I went back and forth a little bit on that, and he was actually very pleasant. Megan. I'd never been on the show before, but I took sort of the day I took a counter position, and he agrees with Mark on this. You know, I. I think I had some dealings with Nathan Hockman, and it's. All of mine have been very positive. This is. It is unusual. I've never seen it done quite that way, but I think you can, and they've got you know they've been working on this thing for months and months and I think that one move certainly is refusing to waive time. But on the other hand, there's a thing in California called Prop 115 where you can just throw on, you can put on hearsay statement to establish probable cause. All the, all the DA needs to do here is basically call the lead and maybe one or two other witnesses regarding what happened in front of the grand jury and they get the ball over the net on that and then they're just in the discovery phase. That's what I would do if I was them. You kind of, you want to know

[Mark Murphy]

what I would do back, Matt, and you and I discuss this. There's this little known provision in the penal code called 866. California Supreme Court said if you're going to go and try and just put on a bare bones prelim, the only way we're going to say that that gives you due process is if the defense can make an offer to the court and say we're going to call witnesses because we don't think you're telling the whole truth. And that's what I would do. If they try to bare bones what we call 115 prelim which by the way Murphy pioneered down in Orange County. I can't tell you how many times he hoisted on a 115 of a prelim. But 866 is if you can convince the judge then your witness, you can put the witness on. I don't think the DA is ready to put these witnesses on in and subject them to the cross examination. We'll see soon enough.

[Megan]

Yeah, I, I mean maybe it's just me, but it doesn't seem like that confusing or complicated a case. If she's got child sexual abuse materials on his phone, Matt, and he's not getting out, he's going to have additional charges filed against him and I don't know if they can prove murder. But it's very, very bad that he was having sex with a 13 year old girl who is now dead and dismembered in the back of his car. That alone would be pretty circumstantial. But I'll bet you there's more.

[Matt Garagos]

So. Yeah, well, I read the coroner's reports yesterday and one of the interesting things about this is that she was essentially the decomp was very advanced and so she was basically a skeleton inside the car. But they, they left her tube top on and there were cuts in the tube top indicating and I'll Bet you anything that there's going to be when we get the full report, there's going to be nicks on the ribs underneath that. So I think they're going to be

[Mark Murphy]

able to prove a murder.

[Matt Garagos]

I don't know if they're going to be able to prove that he was the killer or not. But he certainly under the theory that they're advancing was the one that stood to gain. But and Mark has had this experience and I have to juries, if you get in child pornography, that case, you are, you're basically on third base and all you need is a base hit prosecution wise because the jury will hate him so much for just such as the child pornography. And it fits, look, that's corroborative to this idea that they were having a sexual relationship. And also if that's true, and of course we haven't seen it yet, I think that the vast majority of public sympathy for this guy is gonna evaporate overnight. If that's true, hopefully we'll never see those images.

[Megan]

If anybody has it. Yeah, there's a reason I brought in Matt now because the worst soundbite I mean it's to me it's worse than anything we heard from Wade, from James Safechuck, from the Maid. It's from Michael himself and Mark Garagos mentioned it at the beginning of our discussion as the thing from the Martin Bashir sit down that would change the trajectory of Michael's life, would get the authorities interested in him. He would get charged. There was a possibility of losing custody of his children. The drugs, the ultimately early untimely death. And it was this crazy ass exchange I'm going to show here in.

[Matt Garagos]

Can you understand why people would worry about that?

[Megan]

Because they're ignorant.

[Mark Murphy]

But is it really appropriate for a

[Matt Garagos]

44 year old man to share a bedroom with a child who is not related to him at all?

[Megan]

That's a beautiful thing.

[Matt Garagos]

That's. That's not a worrying thing. Why should they be worrying?

[Megan]

Who's the criminal? Who's. Who's Jack the Ripper in the room? Did you ever sleep in the bed with them? No, but I have slipped in a bit. With many children, I sleep in bed with all of them. When Macaulay Culkin were little, Kieran Culkin

[Mark Murphy]

would sleep on this side, Macaulay Cook

[Megan]

is on this side.

[Mark Murphy]

His sister's in there.

[Megan]

We're all just jamming the bed.

[Matt Garagos]

Isn't that right, Michael?

[Megan]

It's very right. It's very loving. That's what the world needs now, more Love, Mark.

[Mark Murphy]

I will tell you at the time,

[Megan]

every sane person recoils.

[Mark Murphy]

Yes. And I will tell you at the time that that was one of the reasons that the calculation was made to do that two part 60 minutes inter. Because that was, to my mind at least, was an insurmountable or close to insurmountable thing to get over. By the way, why is it always in my cases that it's ABC who does the interview that ends up I have to deal with later? I don't know what it is, whether it's Martin Bashir or Diane Sawyer, but it's always, it's always.

[Megan]

I'll tell you why. I know the answer. I know the answer because ABC does a lot of crime. It to its credit. I mean, I think all three of us are very into crime and ABC does way more of that than CBS or NBC even, which has Dateline. But abc, that's kind of one of their main beats. So I think that's why all this.

[Mark Murphy]

I was this many years old before I understood that. Thank you. Because it always seems, it always seems like I'm fighting ABC to get the outtakes from the interview that the client did before I met the client.

[Megan]

I think that's why, Matt, I've got to ask you in, in the course of your lifelong career as a prosecutor, you did a lot of sex crimes. We've talked about that. And I'm sure you've got a thought, you're a Californian as well. On the Michael Jackson situation. I mean, there's been. Now we, we talked about him being accused in 1993 for an eight figure settlement. That plaintiff went away. Then there was an actual criminal trial trial by another accuser. In 2003, he was found not guilty in that case by a jury. That was the one in which he moonwalked on the van the day of his indictment. Now we have at least these two other accusers coming forward in leaving Neverland, Wade and James, who we just went through. Now we have this family of four kids who we discussed with Mark, who had been like his second family, the Casios, saying it happened to all four of them, even though they've all, all these people had been denying that it had ever happened and had been great witnesses for Michael not wanting to admit what they say is the truth. So as a prosecutor, how does all this grab you?

[Matt Garagos]

Well, as a prosecutor, you always want as many statements to the defendant as possible. And you know what? This, the Michael Jackson thing, I think we were all shocked back in those days when we saw that Interview. And much, much credit to Martin Beshears because he asked him the tough questions. And he kind of. He kind of asked exactly what we were all thinking in the middle of that. Like, is that really appropriate? And we saw the answer. My boss, he's like a mentor of mine, Lou Rosenblum. When I left the DA's office and he'd been in private practice for six or seven years, he hit me with a real gem that I know Mark is going to appreciate here. He said, always remember, never forget. The way these people think doesn't stop simply because they've gotten into trouble. And now you've decided to represent them. You know, it's. And you see these interviews by people whose currency has been the media, like Michael Jackson or like Prince Andrew. I'm sure you saw that the Guthrie interview, that was the biggest. It was. He's still suffering the consequences of that absolute meltdown. Kind of like we saw with the. The Michael Jackson clip. We just. We just watched. It doesn't take much to shift the public perception or another. Another case that's out there right now that I was talking to Harvey Levin about yesterday, Mark, and that's this David case. As soon as Nathan Hockman came out and said, we've got child pornography on the phone, everybody ran for the exits. So it doesn't take much, especially in cases like this. As a prosecutor, you always want them talking, and you want them talking for as long as possible, because if they say something like that, you've got a real weapon in your arsenal when it comes to prosecuting them.

[Megan]

I'm thinking about Alex Murdoch, who insisted on taking the stand at his family annihilation trial in South Carolina. It was a disaster for him. He thought he could outwit the prosecutors just like they all do and none can. You know, it's like. It's like my old pal from Jones Day used to say. He had a great story of being across from the CEO of a company who was suing a Jones Day client. So he was with that CEO who was suing his client and the CEO's lawyer. And it was like the eve of trial, are we going to settle this or aren't we? And he looked at that CEO and who was refusing to settle. And my friend knew the guy ought to settle and said to him, look, is it possible that when I get you on the stand, you will have a very, very good day and I will have a very, very bad day? No, it's not possible. It's not possible. Like, you're not Going to outwit me. And sure enough, that guy settled, as they all should. It's like if you have a really talented civil attorney crossing you or if you have a lifelong prosecutor who knows his stuff, you're going down. You're not going to outsmart the Matt.

[Matt Garagos]

There's probably nobody in the world right now, Megan, more than the guy that's sitting, sitting there with us right now, Mark Ergos, who's probably had that hard conversation again and again. And as he sits there, he can't talk about it because it's all probably clients who we all know or heard of, and he can't reveal any attorney client. And I know he's just jumping out of his skin right now because he's got so many examples of that that he can't share, but. Yeah, that's Scott Peterson. Oh, so many.

[Mark Murphy]

She was going to go there. Well, my father, who was my hero mentor, used to say it's a rare case for the defense that gets better after the prosecution rests. And, boy, isn't that the truth.

[Matt Garagos]

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[Megan]

I thought it was safe.

[Matt Garagos]

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[Megan]

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[Mark Murphy]

You didn't find another defense lawyer for me today? You had to bring prosecutorial backup. As we're talking about Diddy, I mean, talk about a wingman having Murphy here to talk Diddy with you.

[Megan]

It's got to be fair. And ballast, Mark. We can't just give you a pass. We got to make you sing for your supper. Am I right?

[Mark Murphy]

Yeah, I was just gonna say, Megan, you. You hit it on the head. I'm obviously not in the courtroom. I'm sitting right here with you. But if I'm sitting in the courtroom and my poor daughter who's sitting there cooking up my next grandchild, I can't, I cannot tell you how bad that decision is by the judge. Bad meaning for Sean, because he has now adopted the sentencing guidelines that probation said he should, which you said 70, 87 months. What that also tells you when he says, I'm also going to consider the acquitted conduct, for people who don't understand, it seems counterintuitive. But in federal court, you can be acquitted. You could be found not guilty on something. I can't tell you the number of times I've had that with clients and then have to sit and explain to the client, sorry, we won that, but you got nicked on one count and they're still coming after you for the stuff that the jury said you didn't do. And that's. He's going to get my prediction yesterday on MK True Crime of an over under of 39 months. And taking the under, I think I've lost my bet already.

[Megan]

Now you go for the over. What do you think, Matt, of what's happening in that courtroom this morning?

[Matt Garagos]

Well, I was a little surprised, Megan, actually, when the, when the judge came in because that, that acquitted conduct thing was a kind of a big deal in federal sentencing circles. If you practice law in, in federal court, that was, that was something that pretty much every lawyer who practices criminal law in that arena was talking about. And the judge had no problem today coming in and saying, yeah, I'm going to consider this conduct. Now. He didn't, he didn't come out and say that it was acquitted contact per se. I don't think, Mark, it was. I'm going to consider these others acts of violence that were related to these things. Right. But I know Mark thought the same thing I did. That, that is, that's going to be fodder for appeal for sure.

[Mark Murphy]

Yeah.

[Megan]

For anybody who's made this point when they were pushing for no bail, when Diddy's lawyers wanted no bail, sorry, wanted bail for him, the judge said to them, you argued in your closing that he committed abuse of these women and he used that against them to say, I'm not bailing this guy out. Like he's going to have to sit there. So the so called acquitted conduct, I mean, he was acquitted on legal charges, but he wasn't. The jury didn't say he didn't abuse these women. Even the defense admitted he Abused the women. So is the judge on solid ground saying, yeah, so I'm going to consider that. What do you think, Mark?

[Mark Murphy]

Well, what he did in the bail hearing, I was sitting in there when he did it. The government made a very clever point. They said that the man act, even though there were no allegations necessarily of violence, to transport these male escorts across state lines. It's grouped in the code under a section that is violence. So anything that is in that section of the guidelines is violence. And therefore he said, I'm not going to release them on bail. Made the point at that time and I remember hearing it and saying, well, there's a lifeline, so to speak. He said, this doesn't mean I'm going to ham. He didn't say hammer him at sentencing, but this is with no prejudice basically to sentencing. What he did today, though, Matt, was spot on. He says, I'm not going to. And it's a fine distinction. I'm not going to say that I'm going to consider it for the factors, but I am going to see. I am going to consider it for the 3553 factors. I'm. It's going to inform my decision. It's going to make me not the way I read it, it's going to make me not go down and I'm certainly not going to give you. Cut you a break is the bottom line.

[Megan]

Go ahead, Matt, what do you think?

[Matt Garagos]

Yeah, it's, you know, it's hard to draw the line, Meghan, on a case like this, because we all saw that tape, right? And Cassie Ventura was involved in, in the man act. She was one of the people that was participating in the acts of prostitution. And we violence that. I mean, we've all watched the video and it's horrific. So where is the court obligated to draw that line? He was acquitted of the. Of the rico. He's acquitted of the sex trafficking. But he sure wailed on her. And look, did he.

[Megan]

I know, didn't try to deny it, like totally admitted that this was him assaulting Cassie in the video we're watching right now.

[Matt Garagos]

Oh, right. And look, he, you know, he has, I read his letter to the court and he's, you know, Mark could have written that letter himself. In fact, his daughter probably did. It's, it's predictable given all the sentencing factors that go into that. And I know Mark's got a relationship with Diddy and I and I totally respect that. Mark's on him for a long time. I've never met him objectively I think it is at the end of all this, Diddy is a horrible human being, or at least he comes off that way. And this is. There's an old adage, Megan, you probably remember from law school, it's. There's the only thing more powerful than a federal judge on the planet Earth is God himself. Right. Or herself, I guess, in the modern era. So this judge came out and said some, some very affirmative things like Mark just said regarding the sensing of what he's going to consider. And Mark, I watched the segment on MK True Crime yesterday. I would have taken the over on your, your 39 months, but I thought that was. That was in the ballpark yesterday and now that is out the window.

[Mark Murphy]

Yeah, I agree.

[Matt Garagos]

It looks like 70 month minimum here.

[Mark Murphy]

You know what, you know what the government said, And I haven't been complimentary of the government in this prosecution at all. But she got up today, Slavic got up today, and she said, you, Honor, you want to talk about the height of hubris? He booked speaking engagements for Miami next week. If that is true, and I have not talked to anybody on the defense to ask about that or whoever did that, that should be. I'm walking a line as to what I would do, but I. That would be. You wouldn't just be fired. If you were in my office and you allowed that to happen, I'd take a baseball bat to you. Speaking of violence, I mean, can you believe that? I don't. Because I don't even want to go there. I'm so concerned.

[Megan]

They monitor the jailhouse calls, right? Is that like everything you say in the jail is recorded? So if he booked that while in jail, they'd know?

[Mark Murphy]

Exactly. That's exactly right, Megan. I mean, you're so smart. Jesus. And then if you knew how many times that things were said on those jailhouse calls that you just want to take somebody and get violent yourself, I mean, it's just right. It's unbelievable. There's giant signs. There are giant signs in the jail. I mean, it's not like, you know, I mean, these signs say you are being recorded. I mean, it's unbelievable to me.

[Megan]

To me, it's the same thing as like those huge signs on the beaches that say shark attacks here on this beach, that people still go in. And it's like, you know, you can't say you weren't warned. So that's bad. The judge will probably consider that. Matt. The other thing is, this is a relatively young judge in terms of his experience on the bench. So for him to Come in first thing and say, I am going to consider this stuff. To me, telegraphs. He's been consulting with the other judges on exactly what he can and cannot do. I don't think he'd be such a like gunslinger if he hadn't checked it out and felt very confident that he'll be upheld on appeal for, you know, when it gets challenged, no doubt.

[Matt Garagos]

And going back to the phone call thing, Megan, this is something that we've talked about before that, that nobody is really addressing or that is, remember when he was in jail, the reason why he's felt so confident or at least in the past on some of these jailhouse conversations is he was other inmates calling codes and he was calling witnesses. And Mark and I both gone through this before. When you have a, a client or somebody that is, that is misbehaving in that way, that's a personal affront to a, to a judge a lot of times. And that is when that, when he got busted for that. That was right at the very beginning. Right. Is one of the reasons why the court kept denying the repeated bill motions was this guy can't even follow the rules in jail. That's the type of thing that will stick with judges a lot of times. And you're right. I mean, this judge, I guarantee he was very, very careful in researching the parameters because no judge wants to get reversed on a high profile case. And he worded it exactly right, I think so that he would limit the amount of appellate challenge or scrutiny that, that call regarding the sentencing guidelines and consideration of acts of violence is going to affect, is going to impact the sentencing because, you know, it's going to go up. They're going to spend the resources to do that. And I guarantee he had a lot of conversations with more experienced sentencing judges in federal court.

[Megan]

So that's 70 months to 84 months. Whatever we just said, that's around seven years. Six. Six and change to seven and change. What happens with that, Mark, if he gets that, how much of that does he serve in a federal sentencing?

[Mark Murphy]

You know, somebody that. I just had a sentencing last week in Matt's backyard and down in the Santa Ana courthouse and the client got 24 months. Somebody, somebody when I came back to the office and I was complaining about the 24 months, said forget about it, they'll be out in five months. 24 months is the new year in a day. That's the, you know, used to be a year and a day was the way you get out of. There are programs now the RDAP first step things of that nature that greatly reduce your time. But it is not so that people understand in the federal system it's starting to get more like the state. But it's not like the state where you get set good time, work time on a five year sentence. If you're halftime, you'll be out in halftime. Federal doesn't work that way. If he gets 60 or 70 months, he's going to do real time and he's going to do and because of the pending, one of the other things you have to keep in mind is where does he get designated? What kinds of findings does the judge make? He can. You know. The difference between a satellite camp in Lompoc and someplace that is a level or two levels above is a monumental difference. It's the difference between going to summer camp and then having to watch yourself at all times.

[Matt Garagos]

You're great at protecting your data, but lots of places could still expose you to identity theft.

[Megan]

I thought it was safe.

[Matt Garagos]

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[Mark Murphy]

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