Commercial Narrator (4:05)

One question is, shouldn't the state be represented by somebody else in the course of this court resolving whether the those decisions were right? Because to quote the law and to quote the ethics, the Utah county Attorney's office is now serving two masters.

Joel Waldman (4:24)

I don't like that word, but that's.

Commercial Narrator (4:25)

The word in the, in the doctrine. They're representing themselves and they're representing the state of Utah. And that's why.

Dave Aronberg (4:36)

The attorney general or.

Joel Waldman (4:37)

Somebody else designated by the attorney general.

Commercial Narrator (4:39)

Should be representing them in this matter.

Ashley Merchant (4:44)

Yeah. So Dave, before we talk about the prosecution take on this, even as a defense lawyer, I can't help but think that this is a delay tactic. And you know, I really think about it from a death penalty defense type case. You know, I had a death penalty attorney tell me once that we are oncologists when we have death penalty cases. We're just trying to keep the patient alive as long as possible. And so delay is a strategy in death penalty cases. I hate to say it, but it is, it's one of the effective strategies. So, you know, but I know the prosecution's pretty upset about this.

Dave Aronberg (5:16)

They are, they called an ambush. In fact, we have a clip. Clip two, let's roll that. I just think this is ambush and.

Commercial Narrator (5:25)

Another stalling tactic to delay these proceedings. There's no reason that they could not have at least filed the motion and asked for, asked for time to brief it.

Dave Aronberg (5:38)

Yeah, I mean it looks like this is the defense grasping at straws. They find this little detail that an 18 year old child from one of the prosecutors in the office and may not be someone who's even involved in the case, but was not even a witness, as you said, but was there and that should mean that the entire prosecutor's office needs to be disqualified.

Ashley Merchant (6:05)

Yeah, it definitely seems like a stretch, Dave. I mean it's seems like delay tactic. You know, the one thing though on the other hand is death is different. And so if you're going to scrutinize every little thing, you kind of have to do that in a death penalty case. So, you know, what's the harm really of bringing in the attorney general maybe to review it, but I just don't think it's necessary. I think it's a delay tactic, you know, and the judge, the judge has not ruled, so we'll be watching it. But there's a preliminary hearing scheduled to begin on May 18th. That that's the next time we're going to get to hear really the state lay out their evidence. I would imagine the judge would rule on this before. But we also, you know, in court last week we had an interesting, I don't know if you saw this, we had kind of an interesting motion or argument that was made about lip reading concerns. Did you see that?

Dave Aronberg (6:49)

I did. Now I saw actually you had this expert, they were shin shining the camera on Tyler Robinson and you can see him talking to his lawyer and they had a lip reading expert saying what he said, which was very revealing. And the defense lawyers, as you could expect, were just apoplectic about it. They went to the judge and the judge said, yeah, you're right, we're going to stop the camera from focusing on the defendant here. In fact, we have a clip on that. Clip number three, let's roll. That this court does not wish to.

Commercial Narrator (7:19)

Make a disproportionate decision on, on the actions. And it does not, it does not minimize the violation. Therefore, this court will, will take up the suggestion by Mr. Burt that during the remainder of this hearing that the camera shall not photograph Mr. Robinson at all.

Dave Aronberg (7:40)

Okay. Well, the videographer was lucky because he could have been held in contempt, could have been fined. The judge said, we're just going to tell you no more of this. Now as a 12 year state attorney, I can get it. I mean, I'm mostly pro prosecution. But you don't want to jeopardize a case by jeopardizing the defendant's right to a fair trial under the sixth Amendment. Why make that an appellate issue? So not good that that was done. The judge acted properly. I think this cures it. Or do you think, Ashley, that this sets up yet another argument on appeal that, that they did this? Do you think the judge cured the problem?

Ashley Merchant (8:20)

I think the judge cured the problem. But this is always. These types of issues always come up on appeal. You know, especially in a death penalty case when you're seeking death, every single issue is going to be just litigated over and over again. You know, I kind of relate it to whenever I have a client taking notes, I've had different camera angles looking and you know, possibly looking towards the notepad. And we certainly don't like that as defense lawyers. We don't want any of our notes or any of our thoughts or our process being known when we certainly don't want lip reading. But I think the judge handled it. You know, at this point in the case, I doubt that there was a lot of significant strategy discussions that they were having in open court, hopefully. But this is one of those things that we have to balance when we have courtroom cameras, which I welcome, I think are great. But you gotta kind of balance because you've got the defendant's right to have conversations that are privileged with their attorney. And if they're mouthing, lipping thing, you know, lip reading, those conversations that can invade the attorney client privilege. So I'm glad the judge put a stop to it, but I don't really think we'll, we'll see a big deal about it. But I also thought it was interesting that Lance Twiggs and that was the roommate of Mr. Robinson. So Charlie Kirk's killer, Mr. Robinson, his roommate Lance Twiggs has actually been in FBI protection, but he's no longer protected by the FBI. So it sounds like he sort of got fed up. I don't know if you saw that is on News Nation and we've got a clip from that. We've got I think SOT4 about a family member of Lance Twiggs talking out about that.

Ad Read Host (9:46)

When I first found out about how he was taken in and talked to by the police, you know, I know.

Ashley Merchant (9:55)

That they said that he was very.

Ad Read Host (9:56)

Cooperative, but they had to go get.

Ashley Merchant (9:58)

Him and bring him in.

Ad Read Host (9:59)

He didn't voluntarily go in and say, hey, I heard about this, and I have some knowledge, you know, he had.

Ashley Merchant (10:07)

To go in, then he had to. He handed things over when they asked for him, but he wasn't. He didn't give up any information until he had to. I'm so curious, Dave, how you've dealt with witnesses like that. Sounds like Mr. Twigg's may be a little bit of a reluctant witness. I know we get calls all the time in our office about people who the police contacted me, but they're not a suspect. They're just a witness. But they just don't like how it's being handled. I'm sure you got a lot of those calls, too.

Dave Aronberg (10:32)

Yeah. I'm just wondering. Normally you'd want to brag about the fact that your son is saying everything that he knows. He's doing it because it's the right thing to do. Here. She's like, well, he didn't say anything unless he had to. Like, who. Who's the audience for that? Like, who is she appealing to? Is there someone out there that's going to be happy about that? Charlie Tyler Robinson, maybe. But why would you appeal to him? I don't. I don't get why she was seemingly so careful to tell the world that Lance Twiggs was only going to speak when he absolutely had to speak. I don't get that.

Ashley Merchant (11:05)

Well, and she also said some things about. What she had heard was that Tyler was just so smart. So. So, I mean, she's saying positive things about the killer, which, you know, maybe she's confused. I don't know. It just seemed odd. But talking about how he was so talented and how Lance was so talented in both of those, I can't help but think maybe she feels some type of guilt for her room. You know, her loved one being a roommate, not doing something to stop this. Maybe instead of trying to minimize it. I'm not sure how you would minimize this, but that's the only thing I can imagine for why she's sort of acting that way. But she did say that she is convinced that the police have the right person in custody. So I guess she. She's not saying he's innocent.

Dave Aronberg (11:42)

Well, as we all are, anyone with common sense knows that this is the right person. I mean, he has a confession. I mean, this was. This was the guy. And I know there's certain people out there who want to make this into some international conspiracy, but enough. We know who it is, and it's going to be proven a court of law. Of course, this is the Internet, where you can say anything, and once your conspiracy theory gets disproven, you just create another conspiracy theory. So good luck with that. But this trial will be interesting. I do see that Erica Kirk, the widow of Charlie Kirk, has requested a speedy trial, which to me was. Was very unusual because in Florida, you don't. The victim doesn't get to invoke speedy. Speedy is something invoked by the defendant. But in Utah, apparently the defendant get the victim's survivor. Like here, the spouse gets to have speedy trial rights. Is that something in Georgia, too?

Ashley Merchant (12:32)

No, it is definitely not in Georgia. And when I read about that, I thought, that is such a grand idea. You know, and I gotta be honest, I wasn't a huge fan of the victim's bill of rights. You know, Marcy's Law, it's gone across the states for multiple reasons. Cases are hard enough to resolve as is. And sometimes, you know, I'm sure I'll get a lot of hate mail for not loving the victim's crime bill, but it makes cases really difficult. As, you know, prosecutors a lot of times have a unique perspective, and it may be different than the victim's perspective, and it may be guided by comparison, it may be guided by resources. I mean, different things like that. And so I've never been a huge fan, but I love the fact that when they do have a crime victim's bill of rights, they can ask for speedy trial. And it sounds like Erica Kirk is doing that in this case. And I think that's amazing. I am one of those lawyers that think that everything should pretty much be a speedy trial. I don't know where that's gotten lost in our system, but, you know, these five, six year delays for trials is kind of insane to me.

Dave Aronberg (13:27)

Well, delays, as we said, help the defense generally. So it's interesting to hear it from you. A very prominent defense lawyer saying, we don't like delays. As a former prosecutor. Yeah, we want to get these cases going as soon as possible. You know why delays help the defense? Well, because evidence spoils, witnesses die, memories fade. So it usually always helps the defense. So that's good. Maybe that's a good thing. In Utah, they have this law that gives victims and their survivors the ability to get this thing rolling so they don't get victimized a second time.

Ashley Merchant (14:02)

I know. I'm just curious what the. What the outcome is, you know, like, I know for a defendant, if we say we want a speedy trial in Georgia, and we don't Get a speedy trial in a certain amount of time, the case actually gets dismissed. So I wonder what the remedy is for someone like Erica Kirk who's saying, I want a speedy trial. You know, I don't envy a judge who's having to make that decision. Let's just put it that way.

Dave Aronberg (14:24)

That is a really good point. And you know, when Marcy's law gets proposed around the country, generally the group. When there is opposition, the group that oppose it the most often, prosecutors. Because definitely. Yeah. Because it does in some ways put just another burden for prosecutors. Now your discretion is somewhat lessened and you have another player here. But it's a good thing because, you know, victims are not mentioned not once in our US Constitution. Right. Whereas defendants and suspects are mentioned constantly. You've got the fourth Amendment, the fifth Amendment, the sixth Amendment, the eighth Amendment. Not once in the Constitution. That's why state constitutions, state laws need to have some sort of victims rights in my mind.

Ashley Merchant (15:04)

No, I agree. I love that, though. I think that's the best argument. I mean, it's not mentioned anywhere in the United States Constitution. We're not worried about protecting the rights of victims. There's just. I mean, honestly, I think we could do a whole show on the crime victims bill of rights. I mean, in Erica Kirk's case, it's clear she's a victim. But one of my, my beefs with it always is who decides that someone's a victim. I mean, a judge is essentially having to prejudge a case by determining that someone's actually a victim. Because just because you called the police and say you're a victim doesn't necessarily mean you are a victim. So, I mean, there's a lot of issues we could talk about, but I'm glad Erica Kirk has it to use in this situation.

Dave Aronberg (15:38)

You know, it's nice that we can agree on something. We should stop the show here because it's a high note, but we still have a lot more.

Ashley Merchant (15:45)

Tommy.

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Dave Aronberg (19:06)

The Tepe case, you know? Oh.

Ashley Merchant (19:08)

Oh, my gosh.

Dave Aronberg (19:10)

Last time we were on together, we were wondering, like, who committed these murders. It had to be someone that the victims knew. Right, right, right. Because there was no. There was no broken door. There was no force entry. In fact, there was nothing stolen, and the children were there, left alive. So who did this? Well, you know what? I didn't know that one of the victims here had been married before. So had I known that, I tell you, I would have said, maybe we should look at that person. I didn't know that. And now it does seem obvious. Did you know that? And would you have thought the same way?

Ashley Merchant (19:41)

You know, I didn't know that, but as soon as I found out that they were divorced, I thought, there's gotta be some link there.

Commercial Narrator (19:47)

But.

Ashley Merchant (19:47)

But the thing that kind of got me was the time, you know, their divorce was what I think it was in 2017. I mean, years, years ago. So typically, you would see some type of violence like this after the divorce was recent, you know, raw, something like that. And so the. The amount of time was sort of surprising to me. I'll be interested. Interested to see what the evidence shows when they get phones, when they get some records like that, to see if there was some recent contact. Because why out of. Out of the blue, you know, this. This lady, Monique had. She was remarried, she had two kids. Why out of the blue, are. Is he now coming and stalking her and, you know, shooting her in her home? It just seemed odd to me. I also. I don't know if you saw the report. They found out that he allegedly used a silencer, which, you know, on one hand, I'm thinking, oh, well, he had some compassion for the children. I mean, I know when you hear silencer, you think, okay, well, he doesn't want to get caught. But then I'm thinking, well, maybe he had compassion for the children so they wouldn't hear, or maybe he was only trying to kill one of them, because I know the husband had the majority of the gunshots, so maybe he was trying to kill the husband and thought, I don't know, Monique's gonna take him back or something, and then she was an accidental shot. I don't know.

Dave Aronberg (20:57)

Oh. I think generally when people use silencers is to avoid getting caught. You don't want to make noise. Right. And so he's thinking about himself. But, yeah, as far as the motive, it's interesting because you asked the right question, like, why now? Like, why is this a guy who was at a slow boil, and yet that may be the case because it was this very interesting interview with the defendant's ex girlfriend. Well, it really wasn't an interview. It was her TikTok where she. Remember back in the day, everything was an interview. Now you go on TikTok and you put an article in the background, you talk to the screen. In fact, we have that sot that clip, but I think it's clip 5, right? Clip 5, let's check it out.

TikTok Ex-Girlfriend (21:37)

I get a text message from an old co worker that linked this article about a Michael David McKee and my heart dropped because that's one of my ex boyfriends. So I dated him around the end of 2017 through a good chunk of 2018, I think. Did tell me a little bit about his divorce at the time. So. And again, I want to preface this with this is his side of the story. And what he's saying spoke to me. This is not truth. This is obviously very biased. But what he told me was that one day he came home from residency and that Monique had vanished. Like she took everything. He left the house completely empty and also took their dog. He was just left very stunned because he didn't see this coming. And he was like completely devastated. So again, this is his side of the story, his thing. Not even sure if it's truth. But I do remember him saying that to me.

Ashley Merchant (22:24)

Yeah. And he's been indicted, so I thought that was interesting. They've already got an indictment, so clearly they've got enough evidence. They've got to have some type of a motive, something else that they think has this, you know, tied up with a bow. But I thought it was interesting. He's been indicted and I just want to talk to our viewers about it. Four counts of aggravated murder.

Dave Aronberg (22:40)

So there's only two people, two people dead. Why four counts of murder?

Ashley Merchant (22:45)

Right. That was what I was thinking, you know, and it's gotta be that they think that this crime was committed in a different manner or potentially a different manner. So what happens when prosecutors indict multiple different ways is maybe they're saying we're not sure that the bulletin killed. Maybe we think that it was premeditated. So anytime you think that there's options, you're going to indict all that. So one of those counts, for example, could be premeditation, and the other one could be that he actually had the intent to fire the weapon and the death resulted. I know that sounds like the same thing, but it's actually charged differently and it's usually different code sections. So prosecutors are going to Include all of that so that they can make sure that they've got all their grounds covered.

Dave Aronberg (23:25)

Right. And he's not gonna face a death penalty. Right. Because in Ohio, you have to have some special circumstances, like if you kill a law enforcement officer in that county, it's very rare that they get the death penalty. I don't think they've sought one in a while there.

Ashley Merchant (23:39)

Yeah, not since, what, since 2019, they haven't. And they've got to. I feel like they could potentially, if they had, depending on what they find in the phones. I feel like they could, but they didn't raise it at the indictment. And so it's very unlikely. But they could, because one of the aggravating factors is pursuing a death with prior calculation and design, often called premeditation. So I thought that was interesting also.

Dave Aronberg (24:03)

And multiple people, too, since.

Ashley Merchant (24:05)

Yeah, multiple people.

Dave Aronberg (24:06)

So, yeah, I guess they could conceivably, even though they haven't even sought one since 2019, so. And they haven't sought it yet. They haven't provided the notice of death penalty yet in this case.

Ashley Merchant (24:16)

Right, they haven't. And since they haven't sought it since 2019, that tells me that their juries there probably aren't huge in favor of the death penalty. And so, you know, as a prosecutor, as a former prosecutor, you know, if you're not going to be able to secure a death penalty conviction, why are you going to spend the money going through that? Because it is extremely, extremely burdensome financially on a local community.

Dave Aronberg (24:37)

Correct. And one more part I would like to mention, that we're talking about this simmering guy with simmering boil, and he acts like in a delayed way, years later, he's a guy, according to the girlfriend, apparently he. He rarely talked about his parents. He said he. His parents were older and they were good parents, but he just doesn't talk to them.

Ashley Merchant (24:59)

I know that almost fits the profile, though. You know, a loner. I mean, I think one of the reasons that we're so fascinated with this case is this guy's a surgeon. You know, like, why does someone who doesn't really have a criminal past, as far as we know, who's a surgeon, years later, up and kill their ex? It's bizarre, and I think that's why we're all so fascinated, but.

Dave Aronberg (25:22)

Exactly.

Ashley Merchant (25:23)

Well, we will continue to follow.

Joel Waldman (25:25)

Yeah.

Ashley Merchant (25:25)

But up next, we're going to talk about Nick Reiner again, which is one of my favorite cases to talk about, and whether or not his mental health conservatorship could play into his defense. We'll discuss that and the latest in the Timothy Timothy Busfield case with the host of Surviving the Survivor podcast, Joel Waldman. So stay tuned.

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Dave Aronberg (27:52)

Welcome back to MK True Crime. Could reports of Nick Reiner's childlike behavior in prison and his short lived mental health conservatorship play directly into his defense strategy? Joel Waldman, Emmy Award winning journalist and host of the hit True Crime podcast Surviving the Survivor, joins us to discuss. Welcome, Joel.

Joel Waldman (28:13)

Dave, awesome to be here. Thank you for having me. And Ashley, great to meet you.

Ashley Merchant (28:16)

It's good to meet you, Joel.

Dave Aronberg (28:19)

I've been on your show many times. You're a great host, awesome dude. And you're also a Florida man. You're in South Florida. So we hit the trifecta today. So I'm going to ask you about Busfield and Nick Reiner first off though, because you are like the expert on the Danny Markell murder. Wendy Adelson, everyone wants to know is Wendy Adelson going to be indicted? I still say yes. Can you give us your quick answer on that?

Joel Waldman (28:48)

Dave Aronberg, the short answer is I don't really know. And what do I do every time? I don't really know anything? I asked my co host of my show who is my 86 year old mother. She's been a licensed therapist for 40 years and the show's called Surviving the Survivor because she is a child Holocaust survivor and she likes to scream and yell at me. And when I just asked her on our show, she said the word Savla nut, which means patience in Hebrew. She says it is happening, but I have no idea. It has gone awfully quiet. And Dave, I don't want to bring back any fond memories, but when you were on our show in November, you said it was coming by Thanksgiving. I think across the board everyone is a little nervous right now, but I think we all have to take a breath and realize the way Georgia Kaplan operates out of Leon county, she's a former prosecutor of the year and recently last year. And she is very deliberate, as is Jack Campbell, the state attorney there. Of course, Dave, Aaron Burke used to have the similar position in Palm beach. But I think they're going to get her. I think they're just working out whatever they need to work out behind the scenes. And it is, it is going to happen in due time.

Ashley Merchant (30:05)

I think Dave just wanted it by Thanksgiving. That's what he had asked for for the holidays.

Joel Waldman (30:08)

Wishful thinking.

Dave Aronberg (30:09)

It's true. But no, I said by Thanksgiving. I just didn't say which Thanksgiving.

Ashley Merchant (30:15)

Spoken like a true lawyer.

Dave Aronberg (30:17)

Thanksgiving 2028. You know, there's no statute of limitations for murder. So let's talk about Nick Reiner first off. All right, so Nick Reiner found it humiliating apparently to be stripped of his control when he was put into a conservatorship. So you've been following this one, Joel, Tell us your take about Nick Reiner and where you think this case is going because it doesn't look like the family is helping him or protecting him any longer. They cut off his funding is what I gather. That's why his high powered lawyer, Alan Jackson said, see ya. Bye, Felicia. So what's going on there?

Joel Waldman (30:55)

Yeah, well, listen, we covered that court hearing, which obviously wasn't streamed live, but afterwards you heard from then former counsel Alan Jackson, who at the last hearing essentially said, I'm ducking out. We were all wondering, you know, what is this about? And I've got some sources in Los Angeles. So I texted them and they say, bottom line, it's about money. But there was some debate, you know, is he just too difficult a client? And listen, I don't rely on them too heavily for news and I don't want to overly plug them here, but they get a lot of good information, especially with celebrity cases. And TMZ is reporting that obviously, you know, he's an incredibly difficult client. They're saying right now that he is in, quote, unquote, like a childlike state. And so the issue of, you know, insanity versus competency is going to really come into play here. And I think it's going to be an absolutely major factor. But the bottom line with Alan Jackson, I think he ducked out like you said, because he's a big money lawyer and the family is essentially cutting off Nick Reiner and he didn't have the means to pay Alan Jackson. And it's sad, but it is true. Money sometimes is the bottom line.

Dave Aronberg (32:07)

Ashley, your take on the motive here. Because if it is shown that he was truly angered at his parents for putting him in this conservatorship, which was not renewed, by the way, and that he resented him, they got in a fight that night at the party. That sort of detracts from an insanity defense. Right. Because then it showed that he knew what he was doing. It wasn't just he was just wandering like a crazy man, not knowing the difference between right and wrong. He was angry. He killed his parents. And maybe his best defense is not insanity because that's really, really hard to get, especially with these four facts. Maybe it's just diminished capacity that it's not murder, but manslaughter.

Ashley Merchant (32:46)

Right. This is one of the most complex cases I think we're ever going to see on these types of issues. Just there's so much interplaying. You know, you've got. You've got a man who. It's not a whodunit. We know he did it. We know it was awful. We know it was violent. I think the real Question is, what's going to happen next? Where is he going to end up? Who's his lawyer going to be? Sounds like the public defender, because. Run out of money. I agree, Joel. I think money was the root of that. And, you know, these are difficult cases. So while you might be able to lower your fee on some cases, cases with mental health defense are by far the most exhausting. Mentally, physically, emotionally, everything. And the law, it. It sucks. I mean, it's just not good when you have mental health issues. And that's one of the reasons that I think it's going to be such a complex case to follow. You know, if he's incompetent, he's gonna be in a mental health facility. If he is competent. But, Ngri, he's going to be in a mental health facility. If he is diminished capacity, he's going to be in prison. If he doesn't have diminished capacity, he's going to be in prison. So, you know, all of these options are all custody. He's not getting out. So, I mean, that's at the bottom of the, you know, end of the day, he's not going home. He's not walking free. I think the question is going to be, was he competent now? Is he competent now? Is he going to be competent for trial? What exactly was going on mentally?

Joel Waldman (34:02)

And.

Ashley Merchant (34:02)

And, you know, these cases, unfortunately, this is just so classic. They are so convoluted by all these different mental health things going on. Conventional medicine. You know, he's taking his conventional medicine, and they're saying he doesn't want to take it because. Weight gain. Okay. Yeah. I mean, there's a ton of different side effects. Weight gain is one of them. So they just add another drug on. I mean, that's. That's not a big deal, you know, but you've got. So you've got the voluntary medication that. That they're prescribing for. For him. You probably have drugs that are altering his, you know, his state of mind. I mean, there's lots of rumors of Matthews. You know, that was one of the reasons he didn't want this conservatorship. You've got him going in and out of, you know, being lucid, not being lucid. I mean, this is a lot of stuff to figure out. So this is just a really complex case. But I think when you come down to it, at the bottom of the, you know, bottom of it, he's not going home.

Dave Aronberg (34:51)

Well, Joel, all these points are really valid, and he's not going home. I'm Just wondering, because your audience is. Is active. They're real true crime devotees and they will write in live on the show. You have that capability. I'm glad we don't see that in our show because I'd be afraid to see what our people say. But they will tell you how they think. How do they think about this case? Which side are they on a Nick.

Joel Waldman (35:13)

Reiner's case, You know, our viewers, there's actually a lot of, you know, victims in the community, and we're really a safe space for a lot of people. And some of these people have gone through drug use and issues of abandonment and all sorts of things, but for the most part, they've taken a very hard stance against Nick Reiner here. Because whether it is mental illness or not, their belief, you know, for the vast majority of them, is that you've gotta distinguish between right and wrong. So that just brings us back to the question of competency here. But, you know, I go back to what Alan Jackson said at that press conference at the last hearing, which was, you know, Alan Jackson, a little bombastic, gets up there and says, mark my words, Nick Reiner will be found not guilty in a court of law. Print that. Print that. He says it twice. So I think there are things that Alan Jackson already dug up with his investigation that we might not know about. We're already, you know, one of the things we're learning is that he switched medications just a few weeks prior to the murder. And now there are reports out there that, you know, and again, I don't want to stir up the rumor mill, but there are multiple reports from multiple media outlets that he was perhaps on meth, which caused a meth fueled rage. And if that's the case, I think he's in a lot of trouble in terms of, you know, legal liability and criminal liability. But I got to tell you, of all the cases that we've covered, you know, this is the mega case. And it's got all the ingredients. It happened a few blocks from O.J. you've got a huge celebrity, the grandson of a celebrity, the son of a celebrity. And then I think everyone, the same way, they can relate to knowing someone who has cancer. We all, sadly know someone with cancer. Almost everyone knows somebody with mental illness or drug addiction. And so this has really, really hit home for a lot of people.

Dave Aronberg (37:07)

This is the mega case. Not the Wendy Adelson, Dan Markel case.

Joel Waldman (37:12)

That too. But this is, I think, nationally, globally, this is a real, real, real big attention getter.

Ashley Merchant (37:19)

No, I agree. And I think it's going to be. It's going to shine a huge light on how our criminal legal system handles mental health cases, whether it's good or bad. And, you know, I mean, if we look back, Hinckley kind of got rid of all of the, you know, community health centers when he shot Ronald Reagan and he was found, you know, to be criminally insane. That, I mean, our, the way that our system treated mental illness really took. Took a different turn based on that. And so I wonder if this case is going to really highlight good or bad how the system handles folks who are suffering from mental illness.

Joel Waldman (37:51)

Dave? Thank you, Ashley. I think that's an awesome point. Either Ashley or Dave. I'm just curious. You know what, I'll ask Ashley, since I'm not the host. But Ashley, what do you think of the fact that Alan Jackson got up there and said he's going to be found not guilty? And then a few moments later, Nathan Hockman, the da he had to get up there and say he will be found guilty. What about doing that in the court of public opinion?

Ashley Merchant (38:11)

Right. Well, you know, my opinion is that once the police sort of announce the case and the case is out there in the public, it's all free game, you know. And as defense lawyers, we sort of have a duty almost to get our version of the facts out there. I do think that Alan Jackson was very, very cautious with the words that he chose. And I think, you know, knowing what, how cautious we are with our words, it told me that he has some mental health to defense because he said, you know, that he is legally not guilty. He didn't say he's factually not guilty. And that's a big difference to me. So when he said that legally not guilty, you know, or not guilty under the laws of our state, that to me said it's an insanity defense. He 100% thinks it's an insanity defense. But the problem is with an insanity defense, when you're taking drugs, you kill it. I mean, you really kill it. So he could, as the lawyer, have a great insanity defense, but the doctors are going to have a really hard time figuring out where the drug use, you know, the psychosis from the drug use, because, I mean, people take drugs to alter their mental state. That's kind of the whole point. So where did that end and his actual real mental illness begin, and how did that interplay with the medicine that he was being prescribed? I mean, there's just, there's a lot.

Dave Aronberg (39:21)

There, not a lot of sympathy for meth users even if they have dual diagnoses. And so I think you may be right, Joel, that this could be the mega case, because look at all the attention paid to it now. And it's not even close to going to trial. This may not go to trial for years because he has to get brought back to competency first and ruled to be competent to stand trial. So, you know, we'll be following it here. We got another case I want to discuss with you. Timothy Busfield. You're following this one, too. Famous actor from the West Wing. And he's married to, what, Melissa Gilbert, right?

Joel Waldman (39:57)

Yeah.

Dave Aronberg (39:57)

And she's standing up for him. It does look like after he was charged with two counts of criminal sexual assault of a minor, one count of child abuse, that he's pushing back now. And his lawyers are saying that a studio investigation is undermining the state charges, showing that there was an interview, for example, with the. With the twins at the beginning where they denied that there was any inappropriate activities. And so there's stuff that they're finally pushing back on. Wondering what your take is all this, because generally, when you hear an allegation, this series of inappropriate conduct with a child that, I mean, in the court of public opinion, you're done. I mean, there's really no going back. How many movies does Kevin Spacey have under his name since he was allegedly cleared? Right. So, yeah, this is a tough one.

Joel Waldman (40:45)

Yeah. I mean, in the court of public opinion, he is cooked. They've already. NBC canceled an episode that he was in, of Law and Order, I believe, and are editing around another piece, another show that he's in. So from that standpoint, I think he's done. But from a legal standpoint, I think you've got to go through the judicial process. And you mentioned that latest report, and that is that when police, I guess, initially, their initial questioning of these two twins, and that is redundant. So just twins. When they investigated SL and Vladimir, they said that Timothy Busfield did not touch them. However, I've spoken with quite a few experts in this area of grooming and child abuse, and that is not uncommon at all. And that's already an argument that the government is making in New Mexico. So I think we're gonna have to unravel what police found. And it's important. This is not a civil case. This is a criminal case where police investigated for quite a while. And they've got expert feedback and opinion from medical doctors here. But, Dave, also that Warner Brothers, that separate investigation, when you kind of read it a little bit more closely, the issue there is most people didn't want to speak publicly for fear of retaliation from the quote unquote big actor and director. Someone is even said to have some photos of things that should not be happening. But they did not want to release the photos that might happen. They might be forced to under subpoena. But people are scared of big bosses and big actors. And you know, we've all seen that firsthand, I think, in the workplace. And so this is gonna be a matter of unpeeling the investigation like an onion to see what really happened here. But there have also been other allegations.

Dave Aronberg (42:37)

Well, Joel, we do have a clip of the police audio of the boys doing the interview with them before the charges were brought down the line, where law enforcement then said, then they then came clean after therapy and said what happened. But this is original audio from a previous police interview. Sat 6. We can play that. You know what's right and wrong, right?

Ad Read Host (43:00)

Yeah.

Dave Aronberg (43:01)

You know, no one could touch your private areas.

Ashley Merchant (43:04)

Yeah, but he doesn't touch them.

Dave Aronberg (43:06)

Doesn't touch your private parts.

Ashley Merchant (43:08)

Okay.

Dave Aronberg (43:11)

And you know what's right and wrong?

Joel Waldman (43:13)

Right.

Dave Aronberg (43:14)

You know, where people can't touch, where people can't do. Yeah. You know that, right? Does Tim ever do that?

Ashley Merchant (43:20)

No, he's never touched me.

Dave Aronberg (43:22)

Never touched you?

Ashley Merchant (43:23)

Yeah.

Dave Aronberg (43:29)

In the, in like, you know, your private areas. Right. Never did that.

Ashley Merchant (43:33)

Never.

Dave Aronberg (43:35)

You know, juries and prosecutors will give a lot more grace to children who change their story than. Than adults because of this kind of trauma. But it is evidence that they're using out there to say, you see, not guilty. Of course, here's another piece of evidence that the jury may not see. Actually, actually, Ashley, I'd like you to address this one. Busfield has was accused in two previous sexual assault allegations in 1994 and 2012. He wasn't charged in those cases. One involved a 17 year old girl, another is 20 year old woman. But he did make a payout of $150,000 in the former matter over legal fees in an unsuccessful countersuit. So my question to you, will any of that stuff come in his past if it goes to trial?

Ashley Merchant (44:20)

Yeah, that's a really good question. I can tell you the state's going to try to get that into evidence. And what I would argue as the defense lawyer is that's women, they are of age and there's a significant difference if you do this type of work. And I know it's not a popular opinion, but there's a significant difference between someone who's a predator against prepubescence. And someone who is accused of sexual assault against someone who's of age. And both of these, these girls, whether they were of age or not, they were actually, you know, post puberty. And so 17 and 20 years years old, if he was accused of sexual assault against them, I would argue those aren't similar. And so they shouldn't come in against a case where they're trying, a case where it's young boys that are being, you know, alleged to have been molested. And you know, these, these cases are also really difficult because memories are repressed, memories are incorrect. I mean, anybody who has kids, if you talk to your kids about different vacations you've taken, they're going to have different, you know, memories. Sometimes my kids don't remember certain vacations, they remember other things. And so children's memories are very difficult. And how the police officers asking those questions, I mean, that was leading, you know, I don't know if we're going to be able to get a straight answer out of these kids at this point. God knows how many people have interviewed them and tainted them at this point. Point.

Dave Aronberg (45:31)

Well, and Joel, that wasn't the only one because after the allegations came out, as you know, in just January 13th, another victim's father reported to law enforcement that there was alleged sexual abuse of their daughter several years ago by Mr. Busfield. And this was a 16 year old. So how is this plan, I mean, is this something you guys, your, your audience is just is, is consumed by or how does this all play in your court of public opinion?

Joel Waldman (46:01)

Well, the podcast, my show is called Surviving the Survivor and we actually have a lot of survivors other than my mother who's a child Holocaust survivor, but we've got a lot of survivors of sexual assault. And that disclosure about this other 16 year old girl really elicited the ire of our viewers. They were incredulous that a father who by the way, is a therapist did not report Timothy Busfield at the time. There's obligatory reporting, especially for licensed therapists, but for some professionals. And they were really, really upset about it.

Dave Aronberg (46:37)

Yeah, that is so interesting because I was asking this question to think how they feel towards Buzzfield, but you're saying they're more upset to the father who's a therapist for not reporting it.

Joel Waldman (46:45)

Yeah, very upset with him and obviously upset with, with Timothy Busfield. But I would say more upset with the father because again, he is a licensed therapist and there is, I believe it was in Sacramento, so there is obligatory reporting there. And he did not report it because Timothy Busfield apparently threw a ton of money at him and according to reports, begged the father not to report it. So now, if that comes into evidence, and obviously Ashley is the lawyer here, as you are, Dave, and you're going to know about this much better than I, if that does not come, come in, I think it bodes really well for Timothy Busfield. If it does come in, I think he's in a lot more trouble. But I had not heard the audio you played earlier. And I think that's very powerful in terms of helping Timothy Busfield in a court of law. I think when jurors hear kids say, no, he didn't do it, it's powerful. Yet it's what you were talking about. Naturally, we're talking about children are not the most, I guess, dependent when it comes to their recollections. Right. You can't, they're not so consistent. So I think there will be some sort of leeway and jurors would understand that. But if you bring in the 16 year old girl, it could be game over for Timothy Busfield.

Dave Aronberg (48:01)

Yeah. Ashley, in Florida it's called Williams Rule evidence. I know Georgia has a law like that. But even if it's not a conviction, if it's something really similar, like a stamp, like an movie, a pattern, you can say, aha.

Ashley Merchant (48:12)

Yeah. I mean, pretty much every state has it, the federal government has it. You know, a lot of criminal defendants who are charged certainly don't like it, but it's very powerful. And I can tell you what the law says is generally in sex cases and DUIs, what we call similar transactions or prior bad act pretty much admissible. So the rules are really different. When you're talking about sex cases and you're talking about DUIs, those are the two that they allow it in just about all the time. I think there's a strong argument to keep it out. You know, I think there's some other things in this case that, you know, I thought were interesting. I mean, if Mr. Busfield is wrongly, wrongly accused, he's gotten what's called a sexual assault. It's an exam. And that sounds misleading because it sounds like he's being examined like the victims would be examined. But essentially it's an assessment where they try to determine if he has tendencies towards pedophilia. Towards things like that. And so he had one of those, it's like called the able assessment. And apparently he had good findings on it. He had a polygraph, which are commonly done in cases like this. Polyglots, they're not Admissible in court. But they're oftentimes done to measure interest in young girls and young children. He passed that ABL assessment and that's one of those assessments. It's actually interesting what they do. It's a gentleman here in Atlanta, Dr. Abel, who developed it, but they show images of, you know, essentially pornography, I mean, for lack of a better term, different areas. And they measure the excitement level in your body. They actually measure physiological biophysical markers. You know, it used to be Google this term, a plasma graph. Don't do that anymore, thank God. But they measure like, I think, dynamics in your eye to see if you're excited by pictures, to see if you have an interest in certain groups. And so they always will measure like prepubescent boys, prepubescent girls, and then, you know, age appropriate and different things like that. So he, he had one of those assessments, and those are actually admitt municipal in court. And he passed one of those. So, you know, tough case.

Dave Aronberg (50:05)

This is a tough case. And Joel, I'll give you a last word, but before I turn over to you, you know, there's one more thing. There's the mother of the twins who apparently got pissed at Busfield because she wanted the twins to be back on the show for the next season, and they were not brought back. And she said that she would get Timothy Busfield. According to a TMZ reporter, Christopher Ford said that she would get Timothy Busfield and have his ass if her boys were not brought back for the next season. And they were not brought back. So, Joel, a lot to unpack here. You get the last word.

Joel Waldman (50:42)

Yeah, I mean, I think the veracity of that statement, whether or not the mother really said that is going to be key here. But this is a really, really difficult case. And maybe this case comes down to the competency of these attorneys. And we've got a lawyer on Surviving the Survivor all the time who is a criminal defense attorney out of Santa Fe, New Mexico, and he knows the Albuquerque attorneys. And he says that Timothy Busfield's attorneys on this particular case are the best in the state. And they've come prepared, I mean, with short notice, with a, you know, a hearing about custody. They're coming with, you know, boatloads of evidence to try to get Timothy Busfield out of here. So maybe at the end of the day, it'll be a battle of the attorneys here to see whether or not he gets off on these charges.

Dave Aronberg (51:29)

Yes, the best attorneys in New Mexico. Even better than Saul Goodman.

Joel Waldman (51:33)

Yeah, possibly. By the way, Dave, my condolences about your canes. I was in pain as well watching that. So.

Dave Aronberg (51:39)

Okay, well first Dave's struggling. Well first, first you sort of stepped over my Better Call Saul joke. So and then, and then, and then you bring up trauma to me from the game at the national championship. But I will be discussing it in my closing rant. So I don't think you'll be around your chest. Yes, I will get the last word. Say Joel Waldman, really appreciate your being here. You have an amazing show. Can you please tell our our viewers how they can find you where they can see you?

Joel Waldman (52:11)

100 our biggest platform and we're almost at 200,000 subs just shy it is called Surviving the Survivor. We do a live panel show with three guests every night. Monday through Thursday, Friday afternoons 1pm it's me and my mom. It's a little wacky on Fridays. People who come in for the first time on Fridays are like what the hell did I just walk into? But it is fun. And I've got a book by the same title Surviving Survivor which is like 10% my mom's Holocaust story and 90% her yelling at me and giving me life advice. So check it out. And we're also anywhere you listen to podcasts. I love being here. I hope I get invited to back you will be.

Dave Aronberg (52:46)

Thank you Joel Walman. And next your mail and our closing arguments. Remember, we want to hear from you. Email your comments and story ideas to mk true crimevilmayercaremedia.com mk true crimeevilmaycare media.com.

Joel Waldman (53:02)

We'Ll be right back.

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Dave Aronberg (55:26)

Welcome back to MK True Crime. We'll get to our closing arguments, but first we have a question from a listener. We'll call Stacy. She wants to remain anonymous. I absolutely love listening to the podcast. My question is about any advice that you have for law school students who are doing well but aren't at the top of their class. My son is in Miami Go Canes and he's doing very well, but it seems like the jobs go to those students who are at the top or they have connections due to family members. He's had a few internships where the people thought he was terrific, but there was no full time job available. He graduates in May so I thought I'd reach out and see if you have any ideas. Thank you for any advice you could share. Ashley, what do you think?

Ashley Merchant (56:08)

Yeah, so I actually have some, I think good advice. Maybe a little unconventional, but tell them to go hang out at the courthouse. You would be surprised at how many young lawyers go to the courthouse who maybe don't have a job and start learning things. Watch trials, talk to different lawyers, see if maybe they need help on cases. See if they have a place that you can hang a shingle, stuff like that. You would be surprised but courthouse is where the lawyers hang out. And so if you can't, you know, if you haven't followed the traditional path of getting a job at a big firm, you know, I didn't do that. There's nothing wrong with not following that, that big firm traditional path. Go hang out at the courthouse. You're going to have fun. You're going to learn. You're going to meet all the great lawyers. You're going to know what to do, what not to do. Bring your computer. Maybe you can look up some cases and get a job.

Dave Aronberg (56:51)

It's great advice. I like to take it a step further. It's all about connections in this world. You mentioned family connections. Well, you don't have to just get family connections. You can make your own connections. Go to a bar event. I mean, the after hours, not the physical bar, but okay, sure, if you're old enough to drink, sure. Yeah. And you are, if you're in law school. So that's okay. But even if you don't drink, you can go to events for the legal society. There's so many events, charitable events, civic events. It's really about showing up. And that's how, as a small business person now with my own law firm, I get most of my clients just by being around people, knowing my name from showing up to places. Ashley, I assume that's the same thing, although you're more of a national figure from your big cases in Georgia. But, you know, just knowing people.

Ashley Merchant (57:36)

No, it is. It's all connections, knowing people. And, you know, the bar events are great because not everybody practices every type of law. And so you're going to get referrals, you're going to hear firsthand when jobs are open and things like that. So I would definitely get out there just like Dave's saying.

Dave Aronberg (57:49)

Great. All right, let's go to closing arguments. This is our favorite part of the show. Ashley, ladies first. You start.

Ashley Merchant (57:56)

All right, well, thank you so much. So I'm gonna talk a little bit about a topic we were talking about earlier, Nick Reiner. Not necessarily him and his case, although I'm gonna use it as an example. But I wanna talk about the criminal justice system, the criminal legal system, as we like to call it, and how it interplays with mental health defenses. And I think it's gonna be really instructive as we sort of listen to what's going on with Nick R. Reiner. I mentioned it earlier, you know, we're not really talking about. Nick is going to get out of jail or get out of custody or something. Like that. You know, I hear a lot of folks saying, oh, well, this is just a defense tactic. You know, that we think up these mental health defenses and we come up with a not competent defense, or we come up with a not guilty by reason of insanity. I can tell you 100%, I would trade any possible defense for an insanity defense. I would not want an insanity defense is what I'm saying. It is so difficult. Jurors just, they think your client's lying. Nobody believes you. They're difficult. And as the lawyer, you're dealing with a client that's suffering from something that you can't fix. It's like they've got a disorder that you can't really fix, and you're having to try to figure out how to negotiate it. So I really wish that people would sort of reframe it and not think that we're trying to get out of something. You know, if you have a mental health defense, you're not going to get out of custody. You're going to go into custody. You're just going to go to a treatment facility. And instead of. It's still a jail. It's still locked down. You don't get to roam the halls and go free. You're still. You're just in a jail for those who are suffering from mental illness. So I think it's really important for people to think that when they're talking about, oh, you're just asserting a defense to insanity or saying he's not competent because it's such a great thing. It's not. If you're incompetent, you go to jail, a psychiatric jail, and the state tries to make you competent. It's not fun. It's not a get out of jail free card. Nick Reiner is not going to go free. He's never going to walk free. That's not what we're talking about here. We're just talking about the most appropriate placement. Because I got to tell you, prison is not the place for people who are suffering from mental illness. It's just not.

Dave Aronberg (60:00)

Ashley, it's very well said. You know, here in Palm beach county, the number one health mental health provider is the jail.

Ashley Merchant (60:06)

Yep.

Dave Aronberg (60:06)

And that shouldn't be. But well said. And for my closing argument, I'm going to be positive. And if you're not a football fan, don't worry. This is not necessarily a football closing argument. It's about the success of something new, which is the college football playoffs. This is a national championship game. Because it used to be bad in the old days. Back in the old days where we all think, oh, everything was great back then. We all lionized the good old days. Well, back in the old days in college football, the winner would be decided for the national championship by the sports writers. Yes, you'd have the Associated Press, some local journalists who would decide who the best team was and they would vote for them and that would be the champion, really. So in the last few years we have a playoff which is the way it should be. And yes, there have always been these bowl games, but in the end you leave it up to sports writers. No, we don't do that. In like any other sport, we certainly don't do it the NFL. So now we have this national football playoff system which has become a big success. So congratulations to the city of Miami for being a great host for this huge game that was like the super bowl for college football. I was there and it was really exciting and it featured Indiana University. So the Hoosiers have like the largest alumni base in the country and they were in big numbers last night at the game University Miami, which is my team. Go Kane's lifelong fan. They were the underdog. They were the last thing to be picked to go into the playoffs and they earned their right to be in the national championship game. And they fought and played their guts out and they lost on one of the last plays on a terrible interception. But this is not a football rant. I'm here just to tell you that we should appreciate that sometimes we get it right that maybe we're doing things better now than in the so called good old days. I mean this game was played before a sellout crowd of 67,000 plus fans. The executive director of the championship series is called. His name is Rich Clark. Richard Clark, someone I know, I was a White House fellow with him. Great guy. He described this as the most watched postseason ever. It's a 12 team bracket. It's going to expand to 16 teams and the committee got it right in allowing Miami to be in there because they proved themselves and just. I want to give some credit to Richard Clark, my friend who is the chair of the college football playoffs. He's the called the executive director. He's a retired Air Force lieutenant general. Previously he was the head of the Air Force Academy. He had a 38 year military career. He flew 400 combat hours in the B1 Lancer. He's won the destination distinguished service medal, Legion of merit bronze star, Distinguished flying cross for extraordinary achievement in combat. He represents the best of us and college football despite all its flaws and big money in college football and transfer portals, it's never been a more interesting, more exciting and more relevant sport. And I told my wife that that would be my dream job to be his job. But then she reminded me that Rich isn't allowed to cheer for any team in his position. Because if I had Rich's job, I would have been terminated as soon as I screamed for joy at a hurricane's touchdown or hung my head during the final interception. She's right that the price of objectivity would have been too high for a passionate fan like me. So they say neutrality is a virtue, but in the final two minutes of a title game, I'd rather be a biased wreck than a composed executive. So I'll leave the stoicism to the generals like General Rich Clark. Congrats to him. Congrats to the CFP committee into Indiana University.

Ashley Merchant (63:50)

All right, Dave, dying to ask, dying to ask. What do you think about the transfer portal?

Dave Aronberg (63:55)

I didn't love it because it means that a lot of these players are mercenaries. But it has helped the you because players now, they have taken the power over the administration and now they want to come to Miami because now you can sort of pay your players through the nil. And yeah, the new system, I do agree it should be changed for everyone, but it has helped Miami and brought us back to prominence after 24 years in the wilderness.

Ashley Merchant (64:25)

We could do a whole show on the transfer portal.

Dave Aronberg (64:27)

I love that you know about the transfer portal. You know sports. Is there anything you don't know, Ashley Merchant?

Ashley Merchant (64:32)

Oh, no. I appreciate that. I know that Carson Beck did not take classes at the University of Miami. And that's my beef with the transfer portal. Think I miss the days when you actually went to the school that you play for. And it happens at Florida. It happens at all the schools. I miss those days.

Dave Aronberg (64:45)

But Carzen Beck was a six year senior and he had already graduated from the University of Georgia where you are, and then transferred to Miami to play for his final year of eligibility. And it would have been great if he had not thrown that final interception that just. That was bad. He had a great game otherwise. Yeah, well, so that was me trying to get through that trauma of the big game. I want to thank our guest Joel Waldman and to my co host, Ashley Merchant. And thank you, dear audience members, for joining us. Have a wonderful week.