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MK True Crime
Britney Spears Takes Plea, D4vd's Chainsaw, and Quadruple Murder Suspect Waives Right to Counsel, with Dr. Kendall Crowns
00:59:47
The MK True Crime Show hosts Dave Aronberg and Ashleigh Merchant join the program to discuss the case of Austin Drummond, accused quadruple murderer, his bad behavior in prison, his handwritten motion to represent himself, if the State will allow him to argue in his own capital murder trial, Britney Spears’s recent “wet reckless” plea, how it differs from a DUI, why the deal was offered to the struggling popstar, Chief Medical Examiner Dr. Kendall Crowns joins Dave and Ashleigh from Texas to break down the autopsy report of alleged D4vd victim Celeste Rivas Hernandez, what a chainsaw does to human remains, reasons why a death certificate would be updated, what toxicology findings reveal about Celeste’s possible alcohol and drug use, why it may be “unclear” if the 14-year-old was pregnant in the year before her death, and more. Dave Aronberg: https://davearonberglaw.com Ashleigh Merchant: https://www.criminaldefenseattorneysmarietta.com Dr. Kendall Crowns: https://www.yo...
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- [00:00]
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Dave Aronberg
Welcome to MK True Crime. I'm Dave Aronberg, former state attorney for Palm Beach County, AKA the Florida lawman here, also managing partner of Dave Aronberg Law. I'm joined today by my co host Ashley Merchant, criminal defense attorney from Atlanta, Ga, Formerly of the great state of Florida. Hello, Ashley.
- [01:25]
Ashley Merchant
Hey, Dave. Good to see you.
- [01:26]
Dave Aronberg
Good to see you. May the fourth be with you. Let's go over what we have on the docket today. Tennessee man Austin Drummond is charged with quadruple murder and kidnapping. According to a handwritten motion, Drummond wants to represent himself. Never a good move in this capital case. But will Tennessee courts allow it?
- [01:48]
Ashley Merchant
We will discuss and troubled pop star Britney Spears just avoided a DUI charge in California. When will discuss how her wet reckless plea, what it means and her unexpected tie to the killer. David.
- [02:02]
Dave Aronberg
Later, Chief Medical Examiner Dr. Kendall Crowns, host of podcast Mayhem in the Morgue, will join the show to break down what the autopsy of Celeste Rivas Hernandez, the teen allegedly killed by singer David, reveals. But first we'll get started with accused quadruple murder Austin Drummond. This is a 29 year old career criminal, was relatively close to the family that he allegedly murdered. Allegedly was dating one of the members of the family. This is, this is all so horrific. And it's been the talk of the true crime community. He filed a handwritten motion to fire his attorney recently. Do you see that, Ashley?
- [02:45]
Ashley Merchant
There's so much to talk about. Can't wait to talk about that.
- [02:48]
Dave Aronberg
Yeah, I mean, I mean, I'm sure you've seen that where your client wants to fire you and they scribble some scratch like they could do it better, like they're upset with you and it's like, hey, look who this person is, it's like, all right, you don't wanna do me any favors, Take the case on your own, but let's just go give an overview. Ashley, give us your general thoughts about this case.
- [03:07]
Ashley Merchant
Yeah, well, this case, I mean, it's really interesting because he does wanna represent himself now, and he's filed this handwritten letter. And when I read the handwritten letter, it kind of gave me deja vu back to when I was a public defender, because public def. Tend to get these types of letters. But let's just give a little bit of background on this. So Austin Drummond, he's 29. He's charged with four counts of first degree murder. And they're actually. The state of Tennessee is seeking the death penalty. He's pled not guilty to all the charges. He allegedly shot and killed four people back in July. So it was July 29th of 2025 outside of Memphis. He shot. And I was trying to figure out the family tree here. So he shot Adriana, who was Matthew's girlfriend. He shot Matthew. And Adriana's mom is someone named Courtney Rose. Now, he was dating Courtney's sister. So he basically shot his girlfriend's niece, her boyfriend, and the sister, and then also a son who was there. So four different people. Nobody really knows the motive. Nobody really knows what happened. It sounds like the police put a lot of things together. Different cell phone data, different witnesses in the area. And so it's sort of a wrong place type of case. But he's allegedly k kidnapped them. And then he abandoned a toddler, unarmed, unharmed. I'm sorry. Unharmed. In a yard about 45 minutes away. The police discovered all of their bodies and the abandoned baby girl, who was luckily okay, but now they've tied him with cell phone data and things like that to this area and to this murder. And so he's actually facing capital murder charges. And recently he filed a handwritten letter asking to represent himself. And I think we actually have a picture of that letter, which I thought was really interesting. Yeah.
- [04:49]
Dave Aronberg
Show a picture of that letter if we can. There it is. All right. I mean, look. Yeah. All right. That's pretty much par for the course for pro se defendants. Those who represent themselves have an ass for a client. I'm glad you correct yourself and made it clear that the toddler was unharmed rather than unarmed.
- [05:08]
Ashley Merchant
I know.
- [05:09]
Dave Aronberg
Nothing's worse than an armed toddler.
- [05:12]
Ashley Merchant
That can be very dangerous. An armed toddler, definitely. Well, thank God that the toddler was unharmed, but, you know, so they had this manhunt they arrested him and now he's actually on trial. Some interesting tidbits, though, that I wanted to share and get your thoughts on Dave. So apparently he previously served time for a convenience store robbery back when he was 16. And this is the south, so we love to treat 16 year olds as adults. So he went to big person prison. And this was interesting, too. He got extra three years. So originally he served 10 years as a 16 year old on this armed robbery, and then he got an extra three years because apparently he threatened the victim over the phone. Lovely.
- [05:49]
Dave Aronberg
He also threatened the jurors.
- [05:50]
Ashley Merchant
He threatened a juror? Yeah, yeah, Davey threatened a juror. And he threatened a victim on a jailhouse phone call with his father. So he got that extra time and it sounds like he didn't really stop his prison behavior because he was also charged with attempted murder of a prison guard. And since the arrest in this case for the murders, he's been moved to a state prison. Now, that's abnormal. You know, normally you're in a local jail, but he's been moved for bad behavior. And his bad behavior was reportedly covering his cell door in feces and also having drugs. Suboxone. Specifically Suboxone strips. Now, I wanted to ask you warm welcome, and I know it's your birthday today, so, you know, for your birthday, have you ever had a client bless you with the infamous covering their cell door and feces?
- [06:38]
Dave Aronberg
Is that a thing or is that just for someone's birthday? Because I got to say, I've been a prosecutor for four years and I've only recently become a criminal defense lawyer. And I have not had the pleasure since I become a criminal defense lawyer to go visit a client where their cell is draped with feces. Maybe you should pick some better clients, Ashley, if this has happened to you, because that is nasty.
- [07:01]
Ashley Merchant
You know, I honestly had not thought about that in a good 20 years. So I'll tell you about my instance with that, because yes, yes, in fact, that did happen to me once. I was fresh out of law school and I was a public defender in the infamous. And everyone's favorite, Fulton County, Fulton County, Georgia. And we would. I like to call that jail like Grand Central Station. So in Atlanta, it sort of is. Everybody is in the basement. Everybody goes in. You meet with different people. You know, you meet with medical, you meet with your lawyer, you meet with bonding. You know, you do all that stuff. So you go to different little kiosks. And some people just don't really want to meet with their lawyer, and they don't want to meet with all these people, they're just not really, you know, happy to be removed from their cell. They want to kind of be left alone. So it became a thing where you could actually take feces and line your door with it. And the reason is. And if you think about it, you know, I'm sure it's something you've thought about. Often if you open that cell door, you don't want to go in because stuff falls on you. You don't want to, you know, like, manipulate the door. I mean, it's. It's kind of a thing. So, you know, it's acting out. But it also. I've got to say, it also signals some type of mental illness because I think most people are not just painting their cell doors with feces. So immediately when I read that, I thought, oh, no, this guy suffers from something. He suffers from some type of mental illness. Because even though it's a jail extreme, I don't think that most people who are of their right minds are decorating their cell doors with feces to get locked in. I don't know about you, but, yeah,
- [08:28]
Dave Aronberg
this is one reason, another reason why I don't commit crimes because I don't think I'd last too long in prison. It's that stories like that and like, TV shows like Oz. I don't know if you remember that one where I was like, yeah, I don't want to be there. So, yeah, so when it comes to this guy, he's a. Yeah, you can say he's a little cray, but he just seems like a really bad dude, too. His. His long rap sheet. And here he wipes out, like, nearly an entire family. Thank God that he had at least a modicum of compassion to leave the toddler alone and not execute the baby. But this is a guy who's just committing some horrific crimes. I can see why he's facing the death penalty. I mean, if you're not going to charge someone or at least seek the death penalty for someone who killed four people, then who gets a death penalty?
- [09:15]
Ashley Merchant
Right, Right. It's got to be the worst of the worst. But what's happening now, you know, what kind of happened recently is he's actually filed this handwritten motion, and we've got. We put it up on. And we have it on our YouTube channel. But it's interesting. I want to kind of break down the motion, and I don't know if you've ever enjoyed one of these, but a motion to represent himself. So the state initially, they filed Their motion to seek the death penalty. And it's really what it is, is it's called a notice of intent, their intent to seek the death penalty. And so then he, in response, filed this motion on April 21st asking to represent himself and some of the grounds that he alleged. It sounds to me mostly like he's just mad with what his lawyer is doing, not doing. And, you know, maybe this is a breakdown in the lawyer, attorney client relationship. It kind of sounds like. I don't know. But you know what? Essentially for our viewers, people have a right to represent themselves. It's called a Feretta, right? Feretta versus California. It's a case where a person who was charged with a crime wanted to represent themselves. And the United States Supreme Court said, hey, guess what? You actually have a constitutional right to do that. And so we now call them a Forretta hearing. So if you want to represent yourself, you have to let the court know. And then you get this thing called our Forretta hearing, which is. It's. It's an interesting thing to watch if you've ever had an opportunity. It's basically the court saying, are you sure you want to do this? You're, you know, really stupid for doing Bad idea. It's a bad idea. It does.
- [10:39]
Dave Aronberg
That's what the Friday hearing is. It's the court telling you, you know, it's a bad idea. We're going to cover our own buts by making you agree to represent yourself so that you can't come back later and say, oh, I didn't really want to do that, or. And appellate court says, you know, you should never have been allowed to represent yourself. So this is a CYA hearing.
- [10:58]
Ashley Merchant
Oh, yeah, it's definitely a CYA hearing. And did you have to deal with those when you were a prosecutor? Probably, yes.
- [11:04]
Dave Aronberg
Now that we dealt with, that is something I didn't deal with the feces, but I dealt with far out of hearings, because you had these, these pro se defendants, people who just wanted to defend themselves. And it's never a good idea. Never. And. And they have, at least in Florida, you have standby counsel. And I don't know how they have it in Georgia, but you have lawyers from the public defender's office who are required to be there just in case. And it's really difficult because here's the guy who thinks he knows everything, doesn't want any help, and fired, usually that office. And here they are standing there in case, you know, you need a helping hand. And it's a really awkward situation there. And it's always a guilty verdict.
- [11:44]
Ashley Merchant
Yeah, it is. It is definitely an awkward situation. I was curious because I know prosecutors usually cringe when they see these types of motions. You know, I just want to dissect for a minute though, what he actually said in this motion. So I was looking at it and the things that he's griping about, to me, it doesn't seem like he actually wants to represent himself. It seems like he's just mad about what's happening with his lawyer. And he starts off by saying he wants to move the court to remove Brian Huffman as his counsel and allow him to proceed pro se. But what he says after that is that during the hearing, his lawyer, he said he asked that this thing called a 14 day rule not be waived and that his lawyer did it anyway. He waived this 14 day rule. Then he says during, during the preliminary hearing, the lawyer failed to object to hearsay and didn't ask questions requested by the defendant concerning motive. Thought that was interesting because, you know, it can kind of cut both ways. I mean, hearsay is admissible at preliminary hearings, right? So, yeah, so it's like you can't object to something that's allowed. And I've had that conversation.
- [12:45]
Dave Aronberg
They don't know the laws, so they're like, oh, hearsay is not objecting. No, it's allowed. It's not a trial. It'd be different if it was a trial. But yes, please. Also, I must say this, the one thing I'll say in his favor, his chicken scratch is much nicer than most other pro se defendants. Chicken scratch. Like his handwriting is actually readable and he has the all caps and the where forward. I mean, not the worst that I've seen.
- [13:07]
Ashley Merchant
Well, you know what they do with these, with the handwriting. You know, there's someone in jail that writes all of these. So it's eerie when you start comparing them for each jail because usually the handwriting matches people. I mean, there's different jobs in jails and prisons, and one of them is to write legal things. Whoever has the neatest handwriting gets the job of writing these types of motions. So I think it's interesting. I wonder if it's really his handwriting or not. But it is. It's pretty neat. I can read it. I don't have any problem. So he's mad, you know, that his lawyer didn't ask certain questions. That's pretty typical. But it sounds like that's really a lawyer dispute. You know, he says his lawyer agreed to a gag order without his consent. Sounds like the lawyer, again, is doing things that he thinks is in the best interest of this client, and the client just disagrees with legal strategy. So it's not really that he wants to represent himself so much as he doesn't really like what his lawyer's doing, which, that kind of sounds common. The next ground he said was he wanted his phone record subpoena, and the lawyer did not subpoena them until 2026. When I saw that, I thought, oh, well, he probably didn't have a way to subpoena them until then. You have to wait for a court date to subpoena records. So that's not really shocking. But a lot of these grounds, I think it's just really attorney client disputes. And so it'll be interesting to see if he's able to actually represent himself.
- [14:22]
Dave Aronberg
Not. But he has the constitutional right to do so. So it really is not one of those, like, you have to show a huge burden beyond a reasonable doubt that you can represent yourself. Here it's pretty much okay, you really want to. You sure you really want to? You're really, really sure you want to. And then you do. And it's like I said, not a good move, but. And the judge will try to talk them out of it. But once these folks get their mindset on something, they're pot committed. I mean, like, here's a guy who allegedly murdered four people after having a long rap sheet. So once they get their brain fixed on something, for whatever reason, we don't know his motive, but then he carries through on it. So I suspect he will represent himself. And, and although I can tell you from a prosecutor standpoint, it sounds great when you have a pro se defendant, someone doesn't have a lawyer. It's not good. We prosecutors hate circuses because no one wants to go to court and have just a clown show in front of you. We'd rather have a professional on the other side that knows rules of evidence that can actually handle questions that the judges throw at them. Instead of just talking for an hour about something, then you have to indulge that person. Because the judge always bends over backwards to make sure that a defendant has a fair trial, especially when that defendant is his own lawyer. So it's not anything that we prosecutors want. And it's funny how I still call myself a prosecutor even though I've been out for almost two years.
- [15:45]
Ashley Merchant
That's okay. It's good to hear that perspective though. And I assumed that most prosecutors did not want pro se defendants. Plus, I mean, it takes A lot longer to actually try the case because the judge is constantly trying to educate the person. One thing though that I did want to point out is in Tennessee there's a rule, there's a specific rule that says there's guidelines for appointing counsel in capital cases. So the court has to actually appoint two attorneys. So it's going to be interesting to see how this rule conflicts with his desire to actually represent himself. It says they've got to have two lawyers. The lawyers have to be licensed and have significant experience in Tennessee criminal trial practice. And then there's one lead counsel and that person has to have had a jury trial in at least one prior capital case and then has served as co counsel in at least two capital cases. So I mean, they're making these lawyers have specific histories, you know, and pedigrees before they're able to represent him. So, you know, he definitely is not going to meet that standard. It's going to be interesting to see if he's going to be able to bypass that rule. I mean, it's just a rule and he's got a constitutional right to represent himself. And so perhaps what we'll see is we'll see two standby councils being actually appointed to represent him. Perhaps that's where we'll go with this.
- [16:56]
Dave Aronberg
Yeah, I think that's it. That's it. But yeah, this trial is gross, it's disturbing and it's only going to get weirder from this point, especially if he's allowed to represent himself, which I think he will.
- [17:09]
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- [17:40]
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- [19:20]
Ashley Merchant
well, so did you see Britney Spears took a plea? She just took a plea actually earlier today. So we're recording this on Monday, May 4, and Britney Spears was in court so recently and this just happened, I mean, in April 30, you know, very recently, she was formally charged with a DUI out in California. She was arrested and appeared in court for this misdemeanor dui. She was taken to the hospital after being arrested. They took a blood sample, but they haven't told us the results of that blood sample, but they did take it and apparently they said that she was under the influence of alcohol and drugs. But she took a plea today to what we call really a wet reckless here. I'm not sure what you call it in Florida.
- [19:58]
Dave Aronberg
We call it the same thing. Yep.
- [19:59]
Ashley Merchant
I think most states have this wet reckless and you know, a wet reckless is really a plea bargain where someone pleas to a DUI that's reduced down to what we call reckless driving. So non dui, it's reckless driving. They get the same punishments roughly, loosely as a dui, except it's not a dui. And the big catch for that is you don't lose your license, you don't have as many issues administratively with license suspensions. And you know, that interlocker breath device thing that I don't know if, I don't know if our viewers have ever seen that, but you know, it's this Device that goes on your driving, you know, on your wheel and you actually have to blow into it. And it's kind of funny if you ever have been on the road and see, I don't know if you've ever seen anybody Dave driving around with it and they're car see the movie.
- [20:41]
Dave Aronberg
You ever see the movie a 40 year old virgin that was.
- [20:44]
Ashley Merchant
Yes, yes.
- [20:46]
Dave Aronberg
And then she throws up all over him in the car, right?
- [20:48]
Ashley Merchant
Oh my God.
- [20:49]
Dave Aronberg
It's something when you pick up someone at a bar and then you go to her car and she has to blow into. That's when you have to run. That's when you get out of the car now.
- [20:56]
Ashley Merchant
Oh my God, yes, yes. Or you're like driving, you're like why did that car just suddenly stall next to me? And then you see someone, you know, blow into it. Now the modern ones actually take your picture because it used to be I had, I mean I've had cases over the years where someone's leaning over trying to blow into it. Now you know, they take your photo when you blow. So but anyway, you know why they take your.
- [21:15]
Dave Aronberg
And you know why they take your photo? Because you have circumstances where they get your friend to blow into instead or. Right. I mean it's, it's that this is one way they can be assured that it's really you whose breath is on the machine. This is something that in our DUI first offender program which Tiger woods entered into when I was state attorney, he by pleading guilty to reckless driving, you have to have the breath. Now it was different because he didn't, he wasn't on alcohol. That was, he had prescription drugs. But, but for everyone else who enters into the program, if you have an alcohol issue you have to blow into that machine. And this is very common throughout. Britney Spears is not getting special treatment. She's eligible for this because when you're a first time offender now the second time you wouldn't get a wet reckless, you wouldn't be able to go to a diversion program. But the thinking is, is that you have a bunch of conditions and requirements and then hopefully you learn your lesson and you never do this again. Once you do it again, then all bets are off. Then it's where you're facing jail time. Look at Tiger now he's not eligible for another program. He's probably going to go to trial. So yeah, this is a big thing for celebrities these days. You know, you think that they would learn from past mistakes. But you know, oops, she did it again. Sorry, I've Been, I was dying.
- [22:32]
Ashley Merchant
Couldn't resist it. You couldn't resist.
- [22:33]
Dave Aronberg
I mean, yeah, I know. My, my, my humor can be toxic at times.
- [22:37]
Ashley Merchant
So yeah.
- [22:38]
Dave Aronberg
Oh, two again.
- [22:40]
Ashley Merchant
Two. You got two. She did it again. Well, hopefully if she says she's not going to do it again, I mean one of her representatives has said she's oopsie, not going to do it again. That it was an unfortunate incident, it was inexcusable and she's going to take the right steps now to comply with the law and that this is a first step in long overdue change that needs to occur in Britney's life. So apparently this has made a big change for her.
- [23:04]
Dave Aronberg
So yeah, I'm rooting for her. I really, I really am. I mean she's been through a lot. Yes. Went to conservancy and I'm sorry, what's a conservationist? There was a conservatorship.
- [23:17]
Ashley Merchant
She was. Conservatorship. I know, I like that word too. It's such a funky word.
- [23:21]
Dave Aronberg
It's. Yes, thank you. She had her issues with her father and you know, she's like, it's a cry for help. She's out there on social media like half naked dancing around with knives. It's a weird thing. So I'm hopeful she'll get help and, and maybe this is the wake up call she needs.
- [23:37]
Ashley Merchant
So Dave, did you see the connection she has to David?
- [23:41]
Dave Aronberg
And if you're wondering, David, that's David, not this David. David D Vohr Vid who is now being charged with murder. I didn't know that she had a connection. Like all these celebrities, it's like, don't they hang out with real people? Are they all just in the same little cabal? Apparently Blair Burke, who's representing David in his murder trial previously represented Britney in the late 2000s during her custody battle with Kevin Federline.
- [24:11]
Ashley Merchant
K Fed and then was also involved in that conservatorship.
- [24:17]
Dave Aronberg
Yes. She reportedly sat with and smiled at and embraced Spears's parents at the hearing in which the conservatorship was granted. We're talking to about Blair Burke. So that is interesting. It's all full circle here.
- [24:36]
Ashley Merchant
It is all full circle. So we'll see. We talked about that last week on the show. Whether or not Blair Burke is going to stick it out with David but for now, apparently representing him. But yeah, had quite a bit of a relationship with Brittany, you know, and this is unfortunately not Brittany's first run in with the law. She has been cited. She was cited back in 2023 for driving without a license. And she didn't have insurance. When she was pulled over in 2024, there was an ambulance called to a scene when she got in a public argument with her boyfriend. And then back last year in 2025, there was another allegation of driving home from a restaurant while intoxicated. Of course, she says she was not intoxicated, but let's.
- [25:14]
Dave Aronberg
But she wasn't charged with that, right?
- [25:15]
Ashley Merchant
She wasn't. Nope, she was not charged.
- [25:17]
Dave Aronberg
That's why she's eligible for the reckless now, because she wasn't charged with these things. But this time she is also. We forget. Remember she had that very bizarre incident in Las Vegas when. And she was there during the NBA draft. And Wemby, the number one draft pick for San Antonio, just enormous guy, so tall. And he was walking through the lobby and she chased after him like she was a fan girl.
- [25:40]
Ashley Merchant
Oh, my gosh.
- [25:41]
Dave Aronberg
Right. And they asked her afterwards, why. Why'd you do that? Oh, I wanted to congratulate him on being a number one traffic. This is Britney Spears. You don't have an entourage. You're just chasing after someone. And so one of the security guys for this NBA player who's a rookie stepped in and she said, hit her on her head. And. And she just. It's like, why are you putting yourself in this situation?
- [26:02]
Ashley Merchant
I know. Bless her heart.
- [26:04]
Dave Aronberg
You're definitely from the south, the bless your heart thing. Yes. Yeah, I. Like I said, I do wish her well. I mean, but she has. She has issues and at some point it's going to either end up really badly or if she can break this cycle and just get some help, maybe then there's a real future for her, right?
- [26:24]
Ashley Merchant
Yeah, I hope so. Well, I'm excited about talking more about David.
- [26:28]
Dave Aronberg
Oh, yeah, let's talk about David. Sorry. That's a tragedy too. You know, they. Did you see the video, by the way, that they posted on social media with David where he was trying to explain why he had a house party and why there was that rancid smell coming from a room in his house?
- [26:44]
Ashley Merchant
No, but he's. Some of the things he's done are just extremely ill advised. But what I think is really cool is we have a special guest coming up next. Next it's the chief medical examiner and a host also of Mayhem in the morgue. It's Dr. Kendall Crowns. So I'm super excited to talk about all things medical examiner with. With Dr. Crowns is joining us though, to discuss the David case and specifically this recently revised autopsy report and what it might tell us about her final days. So stay tuned.
- [27:16]
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- [29:53]
Ashley Merchant
Welcome back to the MK True Crime Show. Joining us now is Chief Medical examiner of Tarrant County, Texas, Dr. Kendall Crowns. Welcome to the show, Dr. Crowns. How are you?
- [30:03]
Dr. Kendall Crowns
I'm doing well. How are you today?
- [30:05]
Ashley Merchant
I'm doing great, thank You. Well, so before we talk about the David case, which I really am excited to talk to you about, I think our viewers may not even really understand what a medical examiner is. Is. And what a forensic pathologist is. I mean, you're a doctor. You do autopsies for a living, right?
- [30:20]
Dr. Kendall Crowns
That's correct. So a medical examiner is actually a forensic pathologist. It's kind of interchangeable. We are trained medical doctors. We went to medical school with the surgeons and the internal medicine doctors, and then we went into a residency in pathology and then subspecialized in forensic pathology. So we're just like your average doctor, except instead of seeing live patients, we see dead patients.
- [30:45]
Dave Aronberg
Yeah, that. I gotta ask you, I mean, how do you. How do you get into that? Like, I don't think I could ever do that. I mean, deal with dead bodies all the time. You must have a very strong stomach. And I just. I think you're probably the most interesting person to sit next to on an airplane because I bet you everyone has questions for you.
- [31:03]
Dr. Kendall Crowns
Yeah, well, people do have questions. I often don't talk to people because I'm not a people person. But how I got into it is
- [31:11]
Dave Aronberg
a live people person. Maybe not.
- [31:13]
Dr. Kendall Crowns
Yes, a live people person. Right. Because, you know, the dead, they're always pleasant and they don't ask a lot of questions, but alive, how I got into it is. My dad was a criminologist. I kind of grew up around it. It was always in my life. Instead of reading Dr. Seuss, we would go through crime scenes and Helter Skelter and things of that nature. So it was just kind of part of my upbringing. And then when I was in college, I got a job as an autopsy technician. And then I got into medical school, and the rest is history.
- [31:43]
Dave Aronberg
That's pretty cool. Could you do his job?
- [31:46]
Ashley Merchant
You know, I can tell you the first autopsy I ever saw was a lot. And I think it's because nobody really preps you for what, you know, as a lawyer. I mean, they don't really prep you for what you're about to see. But as it's gone on, I love finding out what happened. And you all are integral to finding out what happened. You. You're probably the most important person to actually finding out what happened. But I share what you shared with your dad as a criminologist, because we always laugh at things that my kids say because I'm a criminal defense lawyer. My kids. Actually, speaking of the David case, I texted my kids last week. Oh, they announced the David Autopsies out. And my husband said things that you never thought your mom would be texting your two teenage daughters. So I kind of grew up with that. But. So let's talk a little bit, doctor, about the David case. So we've got this updated autopsy. So tell us, why would an autopsy biopsy be updated?
- [32:41]
Dr. Kendall Crowns
So the problem with a case of this nature is because she's markedly decomposed, she's an advanced state of decomposition, she's skeletonized, skin slippage, maggot infestation, all that stuff. Plus she's been dismembered. So they have to look at the whole body, make decisions about what's post mortem injuries, what's anti mortem injuries, or before death, and then also do toxicologic analysis to make sure she didn't die of a drug overdose. And then people panicked and cut her up, which is odd, but it can happen. So they have to weigh in all these factors before they make the final decision, because you can't, with an advanced decomposed body just to make a knee jerk decision to say, oh, that's obviously a homicide, because you have to weigh in all the factors before you make that decision so you don't make a mistake.
- [33:30]
Ashley Merchant
Yeah, I can imagine it's got to be that much more difficult with this, this level of decomposition. And so what they've said essentially on this autopsy, they've said the manner of death, it was homicide, and they said it's multiple penetrating injuries. Those are essentially stab, right?
- [33:43]
Dr. Kendall Crowns
Dr. Well, so correct. Penetrating injuries means an injury, of course, it's penetrated into the chest cavity or abdominal cavity. But the thing is, is the way they described them as wounds with smooth edges, which is a stab wound. But I feel they feel the decomposition makes it difficult to officially classify it as that because they don't want to rule out something else like a screwdriver or a thing of that nature. Just calling it a stab wound can change the idea of what weapon may have been used. And of course, the case keeps unfolding. So we may find out they didn't just use a knife.
- [34:20]
Ashley Merchant
Wow. So the next thing we see is bilaterally dismembered. And so that, I mean, essentially the top from the bottom right is cut.
- [34:30]
Dr. Kendall Crowns
Correct. She had both arms removed and then both legs dismembered as well. Legs cut in two places, arms right above the elbow.
- [34:41]
Ashley Merchant
Oh, my gosh. So are you able to tell from the autopsy how that happened?
- [34:47]
Dr. Kendall Crowns
So based on the information we have so far right now, the fact that he ordered two chainsaws, the assumption can Be made that he used a chainsaw to dismember her arms and legs from her body. Also, her left ring finger and pinky finger are missing as well. One finger had a D4VD tattoo on it. And of course, ring finger. I believe she had an engagement ring or something like that as well. Those two fingers have yet to be found, so who knows if they've been kept as a trophy.
- [35:19]
Ashley Merchant
Well, speaking of that Amazon delivery, I literally was looking at it and I wrote what the fuck on it. I mean, there's no other way to say it, really. I apologize for my language, but he ordered on May 1, two chainsaws, and then May 5, a body bag, a heavy duty laundry bag, and a blue inflatable pool, which I want to talk about in a minute.
- [35:38]
Dave Aronberg
And then this is under his own name.
- [35:39]
Ashley Merchant
Yes. And then on July 7, a burn.
- [35:42]
Dr. Kendall Crowns
It's under Victoria Menendez. He ordered it under an assumed name, Victoria Menendez. Yeah.
- [35:48]
Ashley Merchant
To his rental home.
- [35:50]
Dr. Kendall Crowns
Sorry to interrupt.
- [35:51]
Dave Aronberg
No, that's important for the facts. Right, but it was to his own rental home. Right. And does he have an ostensible. Right. Does he have an ostensible explanation? I mean, how is he going to get out of that? I don't know. Even Ashley Merchant, I don't know how you explain that. What? He has a benign use of body bags and, and these chainsaws. Crazy stuff.
- [36:10]
Ashley Merchant
Well, doctor, tell us about the blue inflatable pool, too.
- [36:14]
Dr. Kendall Crowns
Well, it's fascinating. In these dismemberment cases or in homicide cases, people go to Home Depot and they buy bleach, trash bags, duct tape and a hacksaw. And I always wonder, are these cashiers going, going, oh, what the heck's going on at that house? But it is, it's. They essentially order the things that make them guilty, which I find fascinating. Blue plastic pool. Supposedly he's using that to put her body in as it. It's being dismembered to decrease the amount of blood and soft tissue that's being flung around. Thing is about a chainsaw is that the, the blade itself spins. I have my chainsaw here if you'd like to see it.
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- [36:53]
Ashley Merchant
If you could show us and kind of explain to us, because I'm fascinated by this because as a non pathologist and non dismembering member of society, I don't really. I mean, I think, I don't know. I mean, we cut limbs in our. Oh, my goodness, there it is. So tell me how this would not work for a human body.
- [37:11]
Dr. Kendall Crowns
So it works For a human body. But the problem is the chainsaw spins on the sprocket that's housed in here, and the chain is spinning. And when the teeth that you can kind of see catch the bone, soft tissue, they don't actually cut through it. They plane it. So they rip this kind of chunk out. And that's how a chainsaw works. And the problem is, when you put this in a person, it grabs that tissue and then flings it, and it comes off the front and the sides and the back and comes out the chute that the waste comes out of. So it goes everywhere. And a blue plastic pool isn't going to prevent you from shooting the tissue all over the garage that he dismembered or in. So really, a chainsaw was. Was a poor choice.
- [37:57]
Dave Aronberg
Ashley, we're going to get so flagged by YouTube. I hope that anyone out there can watch this, because this is definitely adult.
- [38:07]
Ashley Merchant
Fascinating.
- [38:07]
Dave Aronberg
Fascinating, though.
- [38:09]
Ashley Merchant
Okay, so tell me. I want to know more about this chainsaw. So, doctor, you think. I mean, obviously he bought one, but it sounds like it would be a really big mess. And do you think, based on the autopsy and based on everything you know about the crime scene, or, I mean, where we think the crime scene was, his house, all of that, that he actually did use a chainsaw to dismember her?
- [38:26]
Dr. Kendall Crowns
Yeah, more than likely than not. Especially the fact that in the autopsy report, there's these blue plastic chips that are mixed into the body. And what I think happened is a chainsaw is a little hard to control, especially if you don't have a lot of experience with it. And so when they sawed through the leg, I think what happened is they hit the edge of that plastic pool, and then the teeth from the chainsaw ripped the plastic and then pulled it back into the body. So you get an admix of this plastic with the tissue as well. So it really, to me, sounds like a chainsaw, Just based on how the plastic bits are there and how the legs are torn up and that and things of that nature.
- [39:03]
Ashley Merchant
So what. I mean, talking about how the body would just sort of sling everywhere, I mean, what would the cleanup be for something like this? Like, I can't imagine that the police would not have found parts of a body on the walls everywhere.
- [39:15]
Dr. Kendall Crowns
So the cleanup would be quite a bit. I mean, you'd have to really work at getting every little aspect of tissue and blood and DNA off the walls. I don't actually think, unless he h someone, that he could have thoroughly cleaned it perfectly. I mean, there's still probably DNA at the scene that they've been able to find. Plus, don't forget, he ordered two. So he did. He probably had help.
- [39:38]
Ashley Merchant
Oh, he did. Yeah. He ordered two chainsaws. So they did find. So what? What we've allegedly discovered in his garage. There was a search warrant to the home, and apparently they found evidence consistent with the dismemberment of her body. They tested samples, and the blood matched. And also they found the inflatable pool, and the officers noted that it had multiple linear cuts. So that sounds super consistent with what you're explaining might have happened to this poor girl in this garage.
- [40:09]
Dr. Kendall Crowns
Correct. I highly doubt Mr. Burke had ever experienced using a chainsaw before in his life. And he probably just sawed too far and cut into that pool as he was dismembering Ms. Hernandez.
- [40:21]
Dave Aronberg
Wow.
- [40:22]
Ashley Merchant
So. So this. Tell me about this burn cage. Have you ever had a case where someone had ordered a burn cage for home use?
- [40:30]
Dr. Kendall Crowns
That one's a new one. But burning. People try to burn bodies, burn evidence. The problem is with a human body is we're at, like, 95, 98% water. So it's really difficult to burn a body completely to ash, and that only really happens in a crematorium where they can get the temperature up to a thousand degrees. So really, this. This burn unit that he bought, he would have had to cut the body into smaller pie and then really kept it burning for a long time. And that's going to generate a smell of its own that people are going to notice. So I don't think that was a good plan if he was trying to get rid of the body. But I do think if he's just trying to get rid of evidence like clothing and paper and things of that nature. Yeah, it worked for that, but not for disposing of the body.
- [41:14]
Ashley Merchant
I mean, it sounds like it wasn't. He didn't really know what he was doing that well, so, I mean, perhaps he tried and it smelled too much. I mean, it was in his garage, you know, a neighborhood where I'm sure the neighbors didn't really enjoy the smell. So who knows? Maybe we'll be hearing more about that when we actually do have the preliminary hearing and get some more. Some more information. So I have some other questions for you about. So this death certificate says that it's unclear whether or not Celeste was actually pregnant sometime in the year leading up to her death. So how often does something like that happen in an autopsy where you're unclear if someone's been pregnant? Within a year.
- [41:50]
Dr. Kendall Crowns
The problem in this case is because of the advanced decomposition, they're probably not sure how to evaluate the uterus and the ovaries because. Because they've changed from the decomposition state. So they're not able to give a definitive of whether she's been pregnant or not recently. Now, if she had been a fresh cadaver, they might have been able to evaluate the endometrium or the inside of the uterus, looking for signs of pregnancies as well as the ovaries as well, to see if there were changes that are usually seen with a recent pregnancy. But I feel because of the decomposition, that's probably why they put unknown own.
- [42:26]
Ashley Merchant
Okay. And so that's probably why they updated it. They. They just weren't sure.
- [42:30]
Dr. Kendall Crowns
Correct.
- [42:32]
Dave Aronberg
Okay, so so much for. For. If you see something, say something. I mean, here you have a guy who's ordering a burn cage, who's buying chainsaws, multiple ones and things that normal people don't buy. And yet nothing seems to attract any attention until after the Tesla is found. It's just really unbelievable. I guess there is still celebrity privilege. I guess you just allow people cover for you, they look the other way and just the whole thing is disturbing. Actually. I'm sorry for digression, but it's just.
- [43:03]
Ashley Merchant
No, there really is. I mean, it's, you know, talking about a human body like this, it's. It's really insane. But while we have you, doctor, I want to continue on this autopsy. We've got the toxicology reports also. And I know you talked about that a little bit earlier, but I want to kind of just get some more information. So the investigators said that they found some low levels of ethanol, but that, you know, they didn't think that was really significant. Significant. But apparently she did have a presumptive positive for benzos, methamphetamines and MDMA in her initial drug screening, but they needed some further testing to confirm is there. We've. We've heard that, we think, we all think that the defense is likely going to be that she accidentally died from an overdose and that, you know, David or whoever it is, his, you know, friends, family, whoever helped in cutting her out up to hide the body afterwards, and that, you know, it's more mutilation of corpse. I mean, that's, that really is what it seems like would be the defense. So what does this tell you now? That she had, you know, a presumptive positive for benzos, methamphetamines. I mean, how can you know you as A pathologist. How could you refute a defense like that, that she died from overdose? Are you able to tell if it. If it contributed to the death? Can you kind of walk me through that?
- [44:14]
Dr. Kendall Crowns
Sure, sure. So let's start with the ethanol or alcohol. As the body decomposes, the bacteria consume the body tissues. And one of the byproducts of this consumption is the generation of alcohol. So in advanced decomposed bodies, an alcohol positivity is actually just probably from the decomposition. So we can rule that out. Then the presumptive positive for methamphetamine, benzodiazepines, and mdma, presumptive positive means they found it. But the problem is, is in a decomposition or a decomposed case that they don't usually have the blood or other things that we look at for toxicology. And they have to take the liver. So they do this test by crushing up the liver and kind of turning it into a slurry and then running it through the machines. And when they do that, they get a presumptive positive, but they have to then do more specific testing to make sure that it isn't just an aberrant result or a false result result. And then they do the further testing with more specific machines to make sure it's real. And then they quantify it. And when they quantify it, they get a level, and then you can look at that level and then say, okay, that methamphetamine level is high enough for her to have died, or that meth with the. Combined with the benzodiazepine and the MDMA would have all worked together for her to die. But again, we're still dealing with injuries to the chest and abdomen and then a dismemberment. That's a really odd thing to do when you're freaking out about someone ODing. I mean, why not just roll her up in a carpet and dump her in the city dump, right?
- [45:48]
Ashley Merchant
No, it is exactly. Yeah, you're definitely right. It seems like a lot. And, well, we've been finding out a lot more about. About this case and about, you know, David and his relationship. Apparently, she was just 11 when they started dating, and David off and on, apparently up until the time she was 13. But this was one thing that really struck out to me. They traveled together a lot, including trips to London and Las Vegas and then one trip to Texas to meet her family. You know, I just can't help but wonder, where are her parents? Where are police? Where are, you know, child services? All this time? I mean, if she's traveling abroad, like she's flashing a passport. I mean, why is she not being flagged, you know, as a missing child? It's just that I just can't get past that. I just don't understand that. That at all.
- [46:32]
Dr. Kendall Crowns
Yeah, that's a fascinating question that I would like to know an answer to as well. I have daughters and boy, I would not let them Travel alone at 11 years old with some 18 year old guy. It's. It's really creepy.
- [46:44]
Ashley Merchant
This goes back to celebrity known. Yeah, my kids would be on every list known to man if they were, you know, I mean, shoot, they're 16 and 18 and I can't even imagine, you know, all the authorities I would be notifying.
- [46:56]
Dave Aronberg
Yeah, but you had little, little boys traveling with Michael Jackson sleeping in his bed. And his parents often KN least some of it. And now as his punishment, he gets a whole positive biopic about him which totally cuts out all of that other stuff.
- [47:13]
Dr. Kendall Crowns
So it deletes the child molestation. I mean, fame blinds people of the problems.
- [47:19]
Dave Aronberg
Exactly. Yeah, exactly. Yeah.
- [47:21]
Ashley Merchant
Well, he's also apparently David, this is crazy too. So this, this crime happened allegedly the morning. Morning after he allegedly killed her on, on April 23, the day after he appeared on a podcast called the Zach Sang show. The morning after. And he discussed his new album and reflected how he was emotional at the time of the interview and talking about his songs being prophetic. This is apparently right after he did all this stuff. We're talking about Dr. And I think we have that at SOT1 where we can actually play the clip of his thoughts of this album, which he recorded literally the next day after doing all of this.
- [48:02]
Dave Aronberg
What does it mean to be withered?
- [48:04]
David (Music Artist)
So the entire aesthetic of this project is returning to the dust. A rose grows from the dirt and then it also decays back into the dirt. So with this project, the way I made it, the way I'm talking about the themes on this project, the way I'm talking about my emotions and my feelings, it's all returning to the dirt with this. It's like a entire life cycle. I didn't have nothing to talk about like that. And people were asking me, how'd you write all these beautiful songs when you have no relationship? Relationship? I was like, man, I'm a prophet, bro. I just spoke it into my own life. Like, you know, it was a prophetic thing that I was speaking about heartbreak and love and all these things I never experienced before, but then I actually experienced them and it's like, yo, I really said this about myself two years ago. What's happening? Because I'm always looking for writing material in these types of things. So instead of taking it to. To the chin and being like, oh, my God, like, I'm heartbroken, like, I go straight to my. My phone or band lab, go straight to the studio and write about it. And the irony of it was that person that was saying, I love you, I love you, she's not in my life anymore. So it's like, people say that the string can't be cut and the connection cannot be severed. But I feel like it can sometimes. And that's why I wanted to put, you know, afterlife and all these songs that feel like endings and conclusions and goodbyes on the project.
- [49:13]
Ashley Merchant
I mean, so this is apparently Dr. The day after he's done all of this stuff that we're talking about to a human body. And he looks, you know, he looks fine. He didn't seem tired, he didn't seem distressed. Smiling throughout the interview, talking about how he's an artist. I mean, does this seem like someone who had just done all these atrocious, awful things to this child?
- [49:35]
Dr. Kendall Crowns
Well, I mean, it seems like a remorseless individual who's done all these things, who maybe had planned it for quite a while and has no respect or feelings of empathy for the person he just murdered. I do think you have to. I'm not a psychiatrist, but you have to start thinking of, is he a sociopath? Is he a psychopath? It's really hard to say. But his activity the day after she's dead is very disturbing. You gotta wonder what's going on in his head.
- [50:05]
Ashley Merchant
Yeah, that's exactly what I was thinking. You know, someone who can act like that the day after committing something like this, if you're okay, you've gotta be. You've gotta have something significant going on to be able to act that way. And talking about his lyrics, I mean, he says one of the most disturbing things to me is that, you know, he talks about a lyric from his song Romantic Homicide in the back of my mind, I killed you, and I didn't even regret it. And then he talks about that romantic connection, which we all know as Celeste. And then saying, that person that I was saying, I love you, I love you. She's not in my life anymore. This is literally the next day after he did this to her. The next day. I mean, that's just. That is sick. That is sick. That is a sick living.
- [50:45]
Dr. Kendall Crowns
He's living out his fantasy. So, I mean, he writes about it and now he's living it out. It's, it is deeply disturbing. You got to wonder what's going on.
- [50:53]
Ashley Merchant
Yeah. Oh my goodness. So, so Doctor, what do you think is next in this case with the, you know, we've got, luckily we've got some, some preliminary hearings come up. I mean, is there anything that you're interested to, to know about that's going to be coming out, you think next?
- [51:09]
Dr. Kendall Crowns
Well, I'll be interested to see what happens with the toxicology and then I'm interested to see with his social group, his type of knit friends, as any of them come forward and say, hey, I was there and I helped but I want to be, you know, I don't want to go to prison for the rest of my life. So I'm welcome to say what all I saw. So I think part of his inner circle really knows what happened and we're going to see how good his friends are and how well they can keep their mouth shut.
- [51:36]
Ashley Merchant
So that's interesting. I want to ask you a follow up before we move on and I really appreciate your time. Doctor. So, so, you know, I mean you were holding your chainsaw. You know how hard it is to manipulate a human body like this. Do you think there's any way that he did all of this by himself?
- [51:52]
Dr. Kendall Crowns
I mean, with no training, no experience, it would be difficult. But I think a single individual could saw up a body by themselves with a chainsaw. I do think it's possible. But again, he would have to have help because I don't think he's ever done something like this before. If you know what you're doing doing, sure, you could do it by yourself. If you're new to it, you probably needed help.
- [52:16]
Ashley Merchant
Terrifying. Well, Doctor, thank you so much. Dr. Crowns, can you tell us where our listeners can find you?
- [52:26]
Dr. Kendall Crowns
So I have a podcast called Mayhem in the Morgue that's on all your media outlets. I also have an Instagram page, TikTok page and YouTube channel under those names as well. Well, and you can find me in Fort Worth, Texas.
- [52:42]
Ashley Merchant
Fort Worth, Texas. Great.
- [52:43]
Dr. Kendall Crowns
Yeah.
- [52:44]
Ashley Merchant
Well, hopefully everyone can check you out online on all the socials. I know, I'm going to. It was very interesting. Thank you so much for being with us. And up next we've got your questions and our closing arguments, so please stay tuned.
- [52:56]
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- [55:23]
Dave Aronberg
Welcome back to the MK True Crime Show. It's almost time for our closing arguments, but not so fast. We've got a listener question. Jeremy, thank you. Jeremy asks, if you are a witness or have evidence that will exonerate or prove guilt for a defendant, are you legally required to tell the police or defense attorney in the case, especially if you are not questioned by the investigators. So let me pipe in first. I'm going to turn over to you, Ashley, it's different when it comes to prosecutors versus defense lawyers. But when it comes to witnesses, there's no universal legal duty for a bystander or a witness to come forward and provide evidence to the authorities on their own. Now, if you have a duty, like if you're a police officer, if there's a. If you're a mandatory reporter, like, for example, if you're a healthcare worker and you're required to report, report when you see evidence of child abuse, that's different. But when you're a bystander, there's generally no Good Samaritan law in the books, despite what you saw in the final episode of Seinfeld. There are some exceptions that I mentioned when witnesses must provide evidence, like court orders and subpoenas, you know, if you're subpoenaed for it. But as far as an affirmative duty to come forward and to say what you know, no, there is not. Ashley, what's your take?
- [56:40]
Ashley Merchant
Yeah, you know, as a defense lawyer, if you've got evidence, that helps, I certainly would encourage you to give that evidence, because the whole point of the system is we want the truth. But I always tell witnesses because, surprisingly, witnesses do call, often for legal advice. And I have represented a number of witnesses over the years. And the general rule if you're not a mandatory reporter is that you don't have to tell the police something. If you do tell them something, it's gotta be the truth. So if you're gonna talk, you gotta be honest, but you don't have to talk. So, you know, there's. There's different methods. I mean, obviously, they can try and make it as hard as possible, putting you on the stand and things like that. But absent a court order or absent you actually being under a court order to testify, you do not have a duty to disclose thing. But I will tell you, if you were sitting in the defendant's chair and someone had information that could help you, you certainly want them to help you. So do unto others, and hopefully you can help someone.
- [57:33]
Dave Aronberg
Great. Great point, Ashley. And while we're at it, why don't you start with the closing statement?
- [57:38]
Ashley Merchant
All right? Sure thing, Dave. Well, we talked about Feretta earlier today, so I wanted to put my professor cap back on and talk a little bit more about the right to represent yourself. And what we call it is a Feretta hearing. Because as I mentioned earlier in the show, Feretta vs. California is the case, the Supreme Court case. You know, we have these terms in criminal law, Miranda Feretta, things like that, they're just the case names. That's all they are, are. But what is a Ferretta hearing? Well, I think the best quote from that case is, you have a constitutional right to represent yourself, even if it's a terrible idea. And that's really what it stands for. So you've got a right to represent yourself. But before a judge can let you do that, they have to make sure you understand just how stupid it is to do that. So what happens is a court is making sure that a defendant understands that they are actively choosing to give up a lawyer and all of the consequences that come with with that before they're actually allowed to represent themselves. So when you're in court and you hear a far out of hearing, it's basically watching a disaster unfold in real time and knowing that it's a disaster, knowing it's going to continue to be a disaster and nothing you can do to stop it. The judge says, you know, do you understand this is a terrible idea, defendant? Yes, of course. Are you sure you want to do this? Yes. And the judge basically saying, well, good luck, sucker, see you after Congress. Conviction. And that's really what happens. It's a safeguard, really, so that the court can say, you know what, you lost and you knew what you were doing, because I asked you if you knew what you were doing. So don't come back later and say, I didn't know what I was doing. Because we all know how it ends. It ends with someone getting convicted because they missed objections, they opened doors to evidence that was harmful, they didn't know the rules, they weren't able to present their evidence because they didn't know how to present evidence. Things like that. And then later on coming in and arguing, well, you know what? I didn't know what I was doing. And the court is going to say, oh, you know what? You told the judge you knew what you were doing. So sorry, too bad. But why am I ranting on this? That's the real question. Because nobody wakes up and says, I choose to fight the power of the government alone. I choose not to have a lawyer. I actually want to do this alone. That choice comes from somewhere. And maybe it says more about the system than one defendant. Themselves. Themselves. Maybe the real question is not why someone would represent themselves, but why they trust the system so little that they would choose to go it alone as the better option. Thank you, Dave.
- [60:04]
Dave Aronberg
Wow. Spoken like a top tier criminal defense lawyer.
- [60:09]
Ashley Merchant
A true defense lawyer, right?
- [60:11]
Dave Aronberg
True defense lawyer, without a doubt. But you know, we love your perspective, Ashley, and I want to give a perspective on a totally different topic. 1500. That's the number of tails finally wagging for a reason. Tonight, after years of living as Nothing more than ID codes and windowless crates, 1500 beagles are finally leaving the Ridgeland facility for good. We owe a massive debt of gratitude to the legends at Big Dog Ranch Rescue, where I adopted my beloved basset hound cookie, and the center for Humane Economy for funding this operation and making the legal magic happen. Honestly though, it's 2026 we have AI that can pass the bar exam and rovers wandering around Mars, yet we're still testing toxins on a creature whose only biological instinct is to love us.
- [61:13]
Ashley Merchant
Us.
- [61:14]
Dave Aronberg
It's not just archaic and inhumane, it's a total failure of human imagination. What is particularly upsetting is that the reason Beagles are targeted for testing is precisely because they are inherently gentle and trusting. We exploit the best traits of one of God's creatures just to abuse them for it. It's sickening, it's unnecessary, and it needs to stop. I'm a proud Beagle parent. Three years ago, I adopted Getty from a county rescue facility in rural Tennessee. He is just the sweetest little fur baby. Today, as Ashley said earlier, is my speed limit birthday. Although I'm not slowing down this year, I'm skipping the traditional gifts and my only wish is to cede my. These survivors find the couches, the grass, and the sunbeams they've been denied their entire lives. So please check out the Beagle Freedom Project or Big Dog Ranch Rescue or any rescue that adopted these tested Beagles. These incredible creatures like Tri County Rescue here in Palm beach county. Help me celebrate 555 by giving one of these sweet, trusting dogs their very first best day ever and a real forever home. In return, you'll have years of unconditional love and great happiness. And there can be no better gift than that. That's my closing statement. Adopt, don't shop. Ashley, it's been a pleasure to be on with you today. I want to to thank you and to our guest, Dr. Kendall Crowns, and to my co host, Ashley. You want the final word before we leave?
- [63:09]
Ashley Merchant
Well, now you make me want to get yet another dog and I already have five.
- [63:12]
Dave Aronberg
So you have five of the same kind I think too, right?
- [63:15]
Ashley Merchant
Well, I have four of the same kind and then one that's a little bit different.
- [63:19]
Dave Aronberg
So yes, the viewers want to know. The four of the same kind are what kind of dog they are?
- [63:25]
Ashley Merchant
Pomeranians and so anyone who knows Pomeranians knows that's a lot of fur and that's a lot of barking. But I will say we're curbing the barking. But they are amazing. Amazing. And it's a long story how we ended up with five. But anyway, I love animals just like you do. And thank you everyone for joining us today. Happy Birthday Dave. I hope everyone has a great week.
- [63:44]
Dave Aronberg
See you next time.
- [63:48]
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