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MK True Crime
Charlie Kirk Assassin Charged, Investigation Into Injured Freshman, Luigi Terror Charge Dropped
00:57:13
MK True Crime contributors Arthur Aidala, Jonna Spilbor and Mark Geragos join the show to discuss a tragic story out of Alabama where freshman August Borden was severely injured while he was at school. August survived but doesn’t remember what happened due to his injuries. Conflicting reports on how August was injured have now led to a criminal investigation. The contributors also discuss Utah’s formal charges against Charlie Kirk murderer Tyler Robinson, the dismissal of terrorism charges in the Luigi Mangione New York state case, an OnlyFans model will stand trial for the murder of a client during a bizarre fetish encounter, and more. Arthur Aidala: https://aidalalaw.com Jonna Spilbor: https://jonnaspilbor.com Mark Geragos: https://geragos.com Riverbend Ranch: Visit https://riverbendranch.com/ | Use promo code MEGYN for $20 off your first order. All Family Pharmacy: Order now at https://allfamilypharmacy.com/MEGYN and save 10% with code MEGYN10 Herald Grou...
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- [00:01]
Arthur Idalla
Before there are leaders, there are learners. Before progress, there's potential. Students are showing up ready to grow, but they need fully stocked classrooms to thrive. Donate now@donorschoose.org backtoschool coming at you live from Autotrader.
- [00:18]
Mark Garagos
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- [00:19]
Arthur (Host)
They're searching inventory. You can make a budget for your wallet to help you succeed. It's smarter car shopping. Just find your next ride@autotrader.com powered by Auto Intelligence Foreign True Crime I'm Arthur Idalla. I'm your host today. I am a New York based trial attorney and managing partner of the law firm Idalla, Bertuna and Cammons. And here is what's on today's document.
- [00:49]
August's Father/Stepfather
August did technically die that day.
- [00:52]
Mark Garagos
Count one aggravated murder, a capital offense for intentionally or knowingly causing the death of Charlie Kirk under circumstances that created a great risk of death to others.
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Detective Chris Zach
And he also asked her to pour pools of gorilla glue into his eyes to glue them shut so that she was the last girl that he would ever see.
- [01:24]
Arthur Idalla
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- [02:21]
Arthur (Host)
Well, well, well. We certainly have a lot to discuss and a lot of different types of cases. A freshman was severely injured at school and can't remember what happened. A criminal investigation is now underway. We'll give you the details. Tyler Robinson and Luigi Mangioni were both in court this week. We'll bring you the updates. And an only fans model will stand trial for the bizarre murder of a client. Well, I have an expert who could talk about all of that stuff. First and foremost I am joined today by fellow MK True Crime contributors, Jonas Spilboer. She's a criminal defense attorney, founding attorney of John Spillboard Attorney at Law. She is my frenemy. She is brilliant, gorgeous, and a fashion icon. And Mark Garagos, anyone who's been practicing law for more than five minutes, who doesn't know Mark Garagos does not know about the law. He is a criminal defense attorney. He's tried civil cases in New York, in California. He's a sparkling water connoisseur, a real estate magnet, and a very proud father. Let's start with this weird and tragic story. And this one's upsetting, very upsetting because I have a 9 year old son and a 19 year old son and this kid is 15 right in the middle. It comes out of Alabama where a teenager landed in the hospital days after starting freshman year of high school. And it is one of these stories where it's like there before the grace of God go I. Mom is home and she's about to go pick up her son and everything's fine. And it's the beginning of the school year and she lives a couple of minutes away from school. She gets a text message from another mom. Hey, are you at the school yet? No, I haven't left to pick him up. Get there right now. And she gets there and there's her handsome son who was totally fine that morning, who's a football player and a student, and he's a mess. The kid winds up in icu. Mom freaks out so badly that they have to call her husband over there. Not for the kid initially, but for the mom. Understandably so. Mark Garagos, what happens? You get a phone call now from a mom who says, my kid is in the icu. He's severely, severely injured. He's got broken orbital bones, his face is all swollen, he's unconscious. I mean, look at these pictures. Those of you who are listening, I mean, the kid has more tubes in him than you can imagine. So now as lawyers like what, what, what do we do? Boy, I.
- [04:47]
Mark Garagos
You don't even know where to begin. I mean, as you said, it's a par, it's everybody's worst nightmare. The first thing you want to do, obviously, is try to get the, the mother situated and calm and try to get her focused on his recovery, obviously. But that, that is, it's just betwixt in between. I don't know that it's actually a lawyer function at that point as much as a human function.
- [05:16]
Arthur (Host)
Jona, how do you get law enforcement involved and how do you make sure that they're doing everything that they can do and that they're not in cahoots with the school in any way for covering up how these injuries actually took place?
- [05:29]
Jona Spilboer
Well, so that's the $64,000 question because you would think that the school, who is. Has custody and care and control over everyone's kid between the hour of. I don't even know when school starts now. Seven o' clock in the morning and three o' clock in the afternoon. Why didn't they bring in law enforcement? Why doesn't the school know what happened to this young man who apparently, according to reports, literally died and came back to life and nobody said a word to the parents. And the school can't adequately explain. There are cameras that are not in that area of the building. So miraculously they don't pick up on anything. The kid himself, as you can understand, since he literally looks like somebody ran him over on his face, can't remember a darn thing because of the injuries he sustained. There's a lot of explaining that needs to happen and, and the school seems to be, just my opinion, perhaps covering up some very damning details.
- [06:37]
Arthur (Host)
Johnny, you just talked about the young man, his name is August, died. Let's play SAT one. I think this is from his. Either his father or his stepfather.
- [06:48]
August's Father/Stepfather
August did technically die that day. We didn't know. No one ever told us until about a week ago that August lost pulse and had to be resuscitated, that he had no heartbeat. It was never made clear to us. And that's a hard thing to. Hard pill to swallow.
- [07:07]
Arthur (Host)
So Mark Garrett goes, obviously the parents want to know what's going on. Do you as a lawyer insist on the head of that school bringing each and every student in who was anywhere in that vicinity or anywhere in the time frame that this happened and so that you can question them now there's all explain to the people, Mark, the rights that children have who are under a certain age, who you know, this is a high school and whether they could be questioned without their parents being there, etc.
- [07:37]
Mark Garagos
Right there. That's one of the big problems in a case like this is that when you, whenever you have minors, minors have certain rights and in order to question them, in order to bring them in, in order to engage with them, I don't know that I would at this point if I were representing the, the family want to have the school involved in anything. I think I would probably want to engage law enforcement if I believed that law enforcement had not been Co opted in any way. It's ironic. I'm sitting here in St. Louis arguing a case tomorrow where a young kid was, was suicidal at his school and his mom had had to go there that she called the police and he, the police ended up executing him. So it's, it's a horrible situation for a parent to be in and it's almost a, a, an unbelievable dilemma in terms of who do you reach out to and how do you follow up. The. One of the things that you would want to know if you're the lawyer is you would want to know. I would work backwards. How did he get to the hospital? I would figure out who transported him the hospital. I would find out what they found when, when they picked him up, who called them in the first place and just reverse engineer the investigation. And you would get, as I'm sure both of you know, I don't have to tell you anything. You would have whoever is your best investigator on this immediately because you always want to do a parallel investigation in these cases, no matter what because you want to make sure that nothing gets left out. You want to make sure also that if there are any cameras anywhere, if there's any witnesses anywhere that people that don't disappear and that the video doesn't disappear. We live in an age where virtually everything is on camera, on phone or on some kind, especially at a high school.
- [09:35]
Arthur (Host)
You would, you would think, let me just talk about the only lead that they have. Let's play sock two. This is again, August, the 15 year old was speaking of his dad.
- [09:44]
August's Father/Stepfather
This remembers being in the weight room, which you know, if you look back at, at the original report, what we were told is that August was in the weight room, they were lifting weights and then they had left to go to their actual football practice down on the field. And the event happened somewhere halfway between the weight room and, and the actual football field. The last thing August remembers is being in that weight room. Several people have reached out and said that this event didn't happen on those stairs, that it actually happened somewhere around the weight room. Whether it was the entrance, the exit, somewhere around that area. And that several football players picked August's body up and carried him to that area where they laid him down and then called 91 1.
- [10:26]
Arthur (Host)
Wow. You know, you're a parent and you hear that. So John, that's the information you have. You're, you're representing the mom and the dad and the stepdad who's very involved here and they're totally bugging out. And so tell People, what legal actions can be taken? Can you go into a courtroom? Could you start civil procedures? Do you walk into the district attorney's office or the local prosecutor's office and insist that they start an investigation, which I believe is what took place here. But just tell us, you know, educate us a little bit. Jonna Spielberg.
- [11:00]
Jona Spilboer
So you're, I think as a parent, you're going to do both, a civil lawsuit, obviously, and you're going to, going to knock on the DA's door and insist that they do a criminal investigation. And I love Mark's idea about shooting sort of doing your own investigation into both because, look, the witnesses in this case, and we know there are some are going to be other teenage kids. Now teenage kids typically aren't hardened criminals. They'll talk. They might not talk truthfully, they might not remember much. But you can get information out of another teenage kid, whether they share it with their parents. I guarantee you it's not a secret already. It's just a matter of finding the right people.
- [11:43]
Mark Garagos
By the way, Johnny, you're going to, I'm going to bet you you're going to have social media just lit up all over this. I would actually assign one of my people also to do a deep dive on social media. I mean, there might be rumors, there might be all kinds of other chatter, but you're going to have somebody do a deep dive there as well.
- [12:03]
Jona Spilboer
Yeah, another, another great point. And nothing will help a situation more than if you file a civil lawsuit, say against the school. When you get into the discovery process, sometimes things that are covered up can be revealed and people will find the information that they right now don't have to put forth. So they're being very, very cagey about it. And look at the injuries, that's another thing. You're gonna have expert medical testimony. Let's look at this kid's injuries. What could possibly cause that kind of, I don't know if he suffered fractures as well, what caused his heart to stop?
- [12:40]
Arthur (Host)
You're going to need that kind of expert testimony. Eyeballs, his orbital fractures. Yeah, he's. I mean, for those who are just listening and not watching, if you were looking at a picture of this kid, he's an icu, he was unconscious, intubated. Intubated like that doesn't happen to a healthy 15 year old who's rough housing.
- [12:58]
Mark Garagos
Right. And one of the things, one of the things you're going to want to do also, Arthur, is you're going to want to try to figure out, if you can, from the doctors, you're going to be asking questions, obviously. What's the prognosis? Was this caused by fist? Was this caused by some other kind of an object? Can you tell whether these are blunt force, in what type and angles and things of that nature? You're going to do all of that in order to try to get to.
- [13:23]
Arthur (Host)
The bottom of this. The doctors. And to your point, Mark, there goes the doctors were the ones who really told the parents, like, this is not a couple of kids roughhousing. You know, Johnny, you're too young to know this, but Mark and I, back in the days in high school, especially for a freshman like you get your butt kicked. I mean, I literally, I'm not exaggerating like the. I don't even know if it was a senior. I think it was a junior. Like, he put me in my locker and he closed the door that was locked in my locker, banging on the locker. Let me out. Let me out.
- [13:56]
Mark Garagos
By the way, that Arthur, I had the same experience. You get stuffed in lockers. We also had something called swirlies where people put your head in the toilet and flushed. I mean, there was.
- [14:08]
Arthur (Host)
I mean, I don't want to make light of what happened to August because this is much. What happened to me is a much easier situation. But I mean, I could give you everyone's name. I'm standing in the hallway. I'm gonna make you laugh, John, I promise you. I'm standing in the hallway and I'm wearing shorts because I was about to go to gym. It was like the end of school. And I'm talking to two very pretty girls who I'm still friends with 45 years later. Elise Lombardo and Jim Rayner. And you know, I'm having a good time. And Billy Kazadente, the senior Running back, number 44 on the football team, without any effort, ripped my shorts right off of me. And there I was because my mom hadn't done the laundry with, with no jock.
- [14:48]
Mark Garagos
They were Hulk.
- [14:49]
Arthur (Host)
Hulk Underoos. Green Hulk Underoos. And I'm standing there looking at these two girls who are my classmates and I'm a freshman, so I got to live with them for the next four years with my Hulk Underoos on. So that's a light hearted situation. But what happened to this kid is, is just horrific. And they need the school and law enforcement and I know the DA's office or their, their version of the district attorney's office is involved and our heart goes out. Before we change topics, let's just talk, listen to his mom and his stepdad sat number three about what he's going through. Now. He is missing his freshman year.
- [15:29]
Jona Spilboer
He missed homecoming. He missed a lot of pivotal things. And I think it's hitting him. Yeah.
- [15:35]
Arthur (Host)
I feel it's not only the physical anguish he's having to deal with, but as a 15 year older, it's also the mental anguish. And he's, he's experiencing, you know, loneliness.
- [15:45]
Mark Garagos
People that he thought were his friends.
- [15:47]
Arthur (Host)
Are not reaching out. Well, it's, you know, it. Geraldo Rivera, my good friend, our good friend, I should say, always taught me an expression a long time ago. You're only as happy as you're happiest child. And to see your child going through something like that is absolutely heartbreaking. And we hope for a fast recovery for this young man. He has his whole life ahead of him, and hopefully this does not derail it too far. I do find it interesting that the mom's first husband has got a lot of hair on his face and the second husband is, looks like me, as old as a cue ball. But everyone has a different choices in life, right, John? Is that accurate? I mean, you choose your glasses differently depending on the occasion.
- [16:32]
Jona Spilboer
I do. I do. So, yeah. Taste change.
- [16:36]
Arthur (Host)
Yes. Let's go from one crazy, serious, heartbreaking story to yet another tragedy that the whole world is basically talking about. And Tyler Robinson was in or is in court Tuesday. And let's hear, let's go to Sat 4 and hear what the Utah Governor Cox said.
- [17:01]
Utah Governor Cox
He has not confessed to authorities. He is not cooperating, but all the people around him are cooperating. And I think that's very important. There were reports yesterday that we can confirm that his roommate was indeed a boyfriend who is transitioning male to female. That's, that's information that the FBI had, had mentioned yesterday. We can confirm that as well. And that, that, that he is cooperating with, with authorities as well.
- [17:38]
Arthur (Host)
Well, Mark Garagos, what do you make of that so far?
- [17:41]
Mark Garagos
Well, look, he's not cooperating and I think what they're saying is, is that his family cooperated. That's how they got to him in the first place. And obviously the confirming of the trans would be. I know that that's kind of a hot button, so to speak. But remember, they have to go there as law enforcement because if you believe what's being reported, there are slack messages there that appear to indicate that the roommate knew at least a location of one of the weapon. If that's the case, they clearly law enforcement is going to run that Down. Clearly they're going to want to know how much they knew, roommate knew before, during, and whether or not this young man is cooperating or not. It appears that they've got quite a case already, just based on the family members statements and some of the pictures and other things. So this is quite an uphill battle for the person who's defending.
- [18:47]
Arthur (Host)
Donna. And we'll talk about who's defending in a minute. Johnny, you've represented thousands of people at this point in your career. Give people a little insight on what it's like dealing with the parents or the significant others of someone who clearly did bad thing or a horrible thing, maybe took someone's life away in a DWI accident or all the kinds of crazy cases you handle. Just give folks who are watching or listening what it's like for you. And being in March when you're sitting there with the family and they're dealing with, with what did my kid do or what did my husband do or what did my wife do first?
- [19:31]
Jona Spilboer
Let me just get this off my chest. Tyler Robinson is a piece of shit, number one. Number two, I in my career, which is 32 years long at this point, there are two types of parents that I have started.
- [19:46]
Arthur (Host)
She started practicing law at 10, folks.
- [19:48]
Jona Spilboer
I did. That's right, I was nine. So there are two types of parents. More often than not, the parents that I have experienced are those that do not turn their child in. Those who actually are, for lack of a better word, enablers. Those who will find excuses. Those who will pull out every stop to make sure that little Susie Cream Cheese does not get in a hole. Host of trouble. Whether it's something big or small, I have not had the privilege as often to work with parents who are just the opposite. I mean these parents turned this piece of shit in and to that I have to give them credit where credit is due. While I think it's terrible that they did not see this happening, why they did not see this coming to a boil, why they didn't couldn't do anything to stop it. I mean, I'm making a lot of supposition here, but I will give them credit for turning this person in. And can I just also a little.
- [20:51]
Mark Garagos
Sidebar, by the way, John, I was just going to say the one problem here to Arthur's question. If you're sitting with the family, the problem you would have as a defense lawyer. I'm not telling you to anything you don't know. You're not going to be sitting with the family. You're not Going to be talking to them about this case.
- [21:08]
Arthur (Host)
You have?
- [21:09]
Mark Garagos
Yeah, they're done. They are walled off from you in terms of anything discussing this case because there is the most enormous obvious conflict you will ever have.
- [21:21]
Jona Spilboer
Absolutely. And that's another great point. And can I just ask that, like, I've represented some. And you guys, even more than me, have represented some hardened criminals, some unlikable people over the course of our career, and this is a case I want to tell you right now that I would turn down faster than you could say don't. I would turn it down. I would not, no matter what. And look, his attorneys is going to have some. And they're going to have a tough. A tough job. But I would say absolutely not. What would you guys do?
- [21:59]
Arthur (Host)
I don't know. You know, I don't have your reaction. I've been, believe me, I've been in those situations and, and for the most part, I've taken them. I've taken it on the challenge and all of that. Look, my. Well, now I'm going to start participating. But my job, my role is to make sure everyone's playing by the rules. If this kid did it, and there's DNA, and there's DNA, and there's this. If it was the DNA was recovered properly, if the search warrants were done properly, if everything was done the right way, no one's breaking any laws to get this guy because of who the victim, then the truth is you can only play with the hand that you're dealt. So if there's all of these things proving his guilt, you don't say, okay, kid, let's go to trial. And, you know, it'll be a long plea. Sometimes they make you do that. Or let's work out some kind of disposition like the, the case we covered where the kid, Cronenberg, you know, he just, all right, let's just plead a life and, you know, you'll live the rest of your life in prison. But I don't know if I would be jumping. I'm not. Put it this way, I'm not putting any feelers out there to represent Tyler Robinson. Mark, I'd like to hear your answer to the question.
- [23:07]
Mark Garagos
You know, I saw, I, I became a fan during the Ken Paxton impeachment of a lawyer down in Texas, Dan Cogdell, who's now, somebody has got him doing tiktoks and I. Apparently it's in my, my feed and I watch them. And he commented that he would absolutely represent and, and, and I have heard both that extreme and I remember rather fondly Scalia talking about, well, of course, criminal defense lawyers make choices. They make choices all the time on whether or not the client has money. And so I mean, and I used to chuckle when I would hear the late great Scalia say that. And I think in our system, I will tell John, because I know a lot of lawyers, criminal defense lawyers, who have kind of verboten red flag areas they won't defend. And I respect that and I get that because they feel so strongly, I feel strongly about the system. I think I tilt more towards the Cogdale sort that you need defense lawyers who are not going to play judge and jury, who are going to zealously defend, because otherwise prosecutors, if you don't defend the worst of the worst and if you don't do it zealously, then that's the. To my mind, I always laugh when people talk about tyranny or fascism or things like that. I always say it starts in the criminal justice system. If you have people who are, to quote the Brandon Sullivan, the potted plants or window dressing or whatever you want to call it, who's just there to kind of go through the motions or as I say to jurors, we're going to take them, we're going to give them a fair trial, then take them out back and shoot them. I, I, I don't go, I don't subscribe to that. I think you need people who are going to defend the worst of the worst and do it zealously.
- [25:12]
Jona Spilboer
I agree. You need people who will defend the worst of the worst.
- [25:15]
Arthur (Host)
And it's not going to be her.
- [25:17]
Mark Garagos
And it's not going to be, it's not going to be our 32 year old Johnna.
- [25:21]
Jona Spilboer
No, it's not going to be me. In this particular case, I don't, nothing really is off limits. This case though, I would be doing this asshole a disservice because just in my soul there's not enough money in the world that would allow me to do my job the way I normally would do my job. I would say, no, I'm going to.
- [25:39]
Mark Garagos
Make it even tougher for you. What if the court called you up and appointed you and said we can't.
- [25:44]
Arthur (Host)
Which is what is good, just to fill people in. Because I was going to bring that up because my people in the office here who aren't lawyers said, you know, who's going to represent them? I said, the court is going to call. Look, I'll tell you the truth. It happened to my dad. I don't know, 20 some OD years ago when the 1993. The first word, World Trade center bombing. And they caught the guys and the chief judge called my dad and said, look, Luke, when he complimented me, he goes, I want to make sure there's no reversal here. And you know, after these guys are convicted and I know you'll cross every T and dot every I and I want you to rep. And my dad had to stand there and represent a guy who blew up try to topple the World Trade center in 1993. And he did it zealously, with all his heart. And this guy got sentenced to 280 years. I think it was in prison.
- [26:27]
Mark Garagos
But.
- [26:29]
Arthur (Host)
That'S what's gonna. Sorry.
- [26:31]
Mark Garagos
It's amazing, our parallel lives. I, I remember in high school, my father getting appointed on a guy on a serial killer and my mother being just literally appalled in high school and my friends being appalled. And he did it because he was court appointed. And it's, you know, they, they back that generation believed that in their heart and soul.
- [26:54]
Arthur (Host)
Yeah, I'll just before we move on, I was running for city council at the time in New York and my dad didn't think it was a good idea to let me know he was doing the opening statement that was all over the place. So I'm ringing the bell going, I'm Arthur Idell. I'm ringing. Are you related to that asshole who's in court right now? Representative, what are you talking about? I have no idea what you're talking about. That's not what happened. Well, to put a little bow on all of this. Robinson is going to face the death penalty in Utah. The prosecutor has determined that he caused a grave risk to those around when he shot Charlie Kirk. And that is one of the requirements to get the, to get the death penalty. You know, he only fired one shot, so the defense attorneys can at least put in a motion asking to throw that out. Had he fired multiple shots, I think the prosecutor would be in a much better posture. And we're going to talk about that because it's a topic that we're going to fold into our next segment. Next, we're going to talk to Janna about a fatal fetish. It's a case out of California. And then we'll talk about the case. I was just referring to Luigi Mangioni because he was in court yesterday. And we'll bring you the updates. If you have any questions or comments for us about any of these cases or Johnna's dress or eyeglasses, you can email us at mk true crimeevilmaycare media.com MK True Crimeagan thank you MK True Crimeevilmaycare media.com We would really, really love to hear from you, especially about how great Janice Billboard.
- [28:39]
Arthur Idalla
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- [29:52]
Arthur (Host)
All right, folks, now let's talk about a case right here, right, right down the block from where I am, Luigi Mangione. I was actually in court yesterday on the same exact floor. I was representing Harvey Weinstein in one courtroom and the Luigi case was going on in the other courtroom. And, and Mark and John, maybe you could explain this to me. But regarding my Harvey Weinstein case, there were people outside, not yesterday, but in the past, you know, protesting that Harvey should go to jail and Harvey should die. And you know, there's no pro Harvey folks there. My mother is like the pro Arthur folk, but that's about it. Luigi has, he's got all these fans out there. They're wearing shirts, they got, I mean these are people who don't really look like they have a lot of money. So they go in to get custom made shirts with free Luigi just justice, justice for Luigi. And they're chanting and they're yelling. And security around the courthouse is enormous because of the, the people in Luigi's corner. Not people saying, this guy seems to, there seems to be a lot of evidence that he executed Brian, who's a married husband of two, father of two, I should say, like I Missed the boat on what the justice for Luigi is all about.
- [31:19]
Mark Garagos
You want me to respond? I mean in full disclosure. His law firm as you mentioned, I'm a proud father. My daughter works at that firm. Jacob Kaplan and Karen Agnifolo who used to work be at my firm or defending him. And they. Not to answer your question, but to change what today's news is. They won today. A motion that I thought I probably wouldn't have given you great odds that they would have won. Arthur, you're you practicing?
- [31:47]
Arthur (Host)
We're definitely going to talk about. I read, I read the judge's 12 page decision. But John, Mark, either one. I mean why are people rooting for this alleged murderer? Like why this case as opposed to, you know, I mean all these other cases?
- [32:06]
Jona Spilboer
Two. Two reasons, Arthur. Number one, look at him. He happens to be a good looking murderer. Okay. Which is, you know, a little bit uncommon. And number two, the people who think he's good looking, the people who are buying the Luigi Merchant, the people who are out there cheering for him also disgustingly think that the victim deserved to die. So you mash those two things up together. There's your fan club sitting outside of the courthouse every time this jack off has a court appearance. And frankly, I think it's disgusting.
- [32:43]
Arthur (Host)
Johnny, just give me one more minute on why people think Brian Thompson deserved to die.
- [32:49]
Jona Spilboer
Well, okay, so he was the CEO. It might be the biggest healthcare company, UnitedHealth in the industry. And I am certain. Look, that's my healthcare company. People do not love the healthcare industry these days. It has gone far downhill. People are not getting the services they need. They're not getting the care they need. The expense has gone through the roof. Look, we all have complaints about that. Just like people have complaints about lawyers. But we don't deserve a bullet in the back of our head. Neither did he. On his way into a conference, this guy was waiting for him. He plotted, he planned, he had a manifesto. And then when it was all said and done, he got a little hungry. So let's go to Pennsylvania and get a Big Mac and a large fry. Like it's just so infuriating. No. And the people who support him are almost as bad.
- [33:42]
Arthur (Host)
I thank you, Jona. I will. Before I throw to you Mark, let me set it up real quick. The prosecutor of Manhattan, Alvin Bragg, in my opinion overcharged the case. Probably purely for publicity reasons. He came up with a reg rather unique terrorist way of viewing this execution and charge him with murder in the first degree. Here in New York, typically we're used to hearing that when you kill a police officer, I mean, that's the way we kind of grew up. The sentence there would be life, the possibility of life without parole. Now he's facing 25 years to life. But Mark Garagos, tell us, you know, what happened regarding the judge in the courthouse yesterday.
- [34:32]
Mark Garagos
So shout out, as I said before, to Jacob Kaplan, who I, I think I've got it on pretty good authority, is kind of the. The architect of the motion here. And what he argued and what the judge adopted is they took the grand jury minutes, the there that the. That was done in order to bring the charges here and said to the judge that what was shown to the grand jury did not rise to the level of terrorism. And the judge agreed. And the judge dism. What are the I, I guess in the hierarchy of the New York charges, the most serious. And for those who are worried or complaining or anything else, remember this gentleman, Mr. Manioni, is being prosecuted, duly prosecuted, by both the feds and the state. This is a decision that applies in the state only, although I think there are probably ripple effects, depending on how creative one wants to get.
- [35:39]
Arthur (Host)
Well, the judge here is Gregory Caro. He was. He's a real veteran judge. His father was a judge here that rose to the level of the appellate court here in New York. He's a very serious man on and off the bench. And basically what he wrote in the opinion was the Court of Appeals, which is the highest court in the state of New York, has said that terrorism should be defined by using your common sense. There is no exact definition of terrorism. It's the way an act makes people feel. And he cited a bunch of court of appeals cases, and then he used some examples like September 11th. He said that was clearly an act of terrorism, like blowing up a plane with a whole bunch of people on it. That was clearly an act of terrorism. One person shooting another person in the back, no matter who that person is and what time of day and where it is, does not rise to the level of terrorism. So he dismissed the top count, which is being played out as a tremendous blow to the prosecution and a tremendous victory for the defense. And yes, it is a victory for the defense attorneys for doing such a great job. But now Luigi Mangione goes from facing possibility of life without parole to, if he gets convicted, 25 to life. And if he got 25 to life. I don't say this lightly. I don't think his parole officer has even been born yet, because this is not the kind of case with this notoriety that is going to allow him to get out anytime sooner. Gary goes the best of luck defending Arthur.
- [37:18]
Jona Spilboer
Wait, I gotta say something. Mark. I'm only complaining about the Luigi fans. I think. I think the judge got this decision. Decision right. We actually talked about it on last Wednesday's show on the 10th. That we thought the terrorism charge shouldn't be there. I applaud your daughter and her firm for doing great work on that. I'm. I'm just critical of the fan club. Just the fan club. Make no mistake.
- [37:43]
Mark Garagos
We. We live in a different era. I will tell you. I mean it is. I'll. I guess I'll just leave it at that. I agree. I think the judge got it right. It's a. It's not a terribly long decision, as Arthur mentioned, to read. And if you read it, it makes complete sense to me logically and analytically and legally. So I mean, you got it right. I sometimes worry that in cases like this that are high profile, the judges will shy away from that. But clearly this to adopt. I don't know this judge, but according to Arthur, he's a serious man and apparently was not ripping Arthur's shorts off in high school.
- [38:27]
Arthur (Host)
So he was not. He's. He's on the other side of the spectrum. I believe they're back in court Dec. 1. That he also has to go to federal court Luigi Mangione and deal with the death penalty charges there. And then he's got to go down to Pennsylvania where he went and got that famous hamburger that John I was talking about. Because when they grabbed him in the state of Pennsylvania, he had a gun on him and he wasn't supposed to have a gun on him. So Luigi's got a long, long road ahead of him in California. And only fans model is going to stand trial for murder after extreme X ray videos with a plastic bag went wrong. John, do you want me to set this up or would you like to do.
- [39:15]
Jona Spilboer
I'll set it up for you, Arthur. To the. Okay. Because this. This one. This one is really weird.
- [39:22]
Arthur Idalla
And.
- [39:23]
Jona Spilboer
And. And I don't like it. So. Okay. Apparently the defendant here was an only fans model who got paid a lot of money. I want to say it's somewhere around 11 grand to perform a little S and M with a willing participant. Right. A willing rich guy who had some odd fetishes, if that's not an oxymoron. So apparently on this day, her. Her client, I guess what we call her client.
- [39:56]
Arthur (Host)
Her client. He's paying her a lot of money to Basically beat him up.
- [40:01]
Jona Spilboer
Well, in this case, he wanted to be, I guess, wrapped head to toe in saran wrap. He wanted a pair of women's boots. Boots, gorilla glued to his feet. But more importantly, he wanted her to gorilla glue his eyelids shut. I don't know what they're calling this. A fetish. I don't know how he would be aroused by it, but I'm not going to. Hey, I ain't going to judge. But, but so she.
- [40:30]
Arthur (Host)
Hold on. You've judged every other case here.
- [40:32]
Jona Spilboer
Yes.
- [40:32]
Arthur (Host)
This is. When are you getting.
- [40:35]
Mark Garagos
Are you saying you're not waiting in on this, Johnna? I mean, that's because apparently there is no There. There's no filter when it comes to your opinions.
- [40:44]
Jona Spilboer
Oh, you think I'm unfiltered? Okay, well, occasionally I might lose a filter every now and then. But this case, and we. We have to remember the victim died because she by asphyxiation. So she went a little nuts with either the gorilla glue and. Or the Saran wrap. And this person could not breathe and lost his life. And then there's some question, Arthur, about when the police were called or what like did. I think there was several hours.
- [41:14]
Arthur (Host)
Let's hear what would the detective as say? Detective Chris Zach. That's sight number seven.
- [41:20]
Detective Chris Zach
The nature of it was Mr. Dale asking his rilers dam to do certain things for him. He was asking her to buy boots and galactic them on his feet with gorilla glue. He was asking her to buy dildos and glue them in his mouth. And he also asked her to pour pools of gorilla glue into his eyes to glue them shut so that she was the last girl that he would ever see. And based on these text messages, were you able to tell which. Whether Mr. Dale was offering money in.
- [42:01]
Utah Governor Cox
Exchange for these acts?
- [42:04]
Detective Chris Zach
Yes, I believe he was going to offer some money. I don't remember how much it was done.
- [42:11]
Arthur (Host)
And you know what? Let's just play what his roommate, the deceased roommate, Andrew Smith, remembers hearing that night. Let's play side eight. I could just hear him say, can we. We stop.
- [42:27]
Andrew Smith
I'll pay you certain amount more money to stop. And that's when I realized that it wasn't a friend, it was.
- [42:38]
Arthur (Host)
A prostitute. Or whatever you want to say now. You know, there's a lot to unravel there. Johnna, isn't there supposed to be like a safe word that they use, like, you know, when things go too far?
- [42:55]
Jona Spilboer
Yeah, I think the safe word is hulk underwear. That's what the safe word probably is most often.
- [43:01]
Arthur (Host)
Arthur, I thought you told me it was chocolate. Didn't you tell me if it's chocolate.
- [43:06]
Jona Spilboer
I'm, I am not the expert.
- [43:11]
Mark Garagos
I thought he was qualifying you, John, as an expert.
- [43:15]
Jona Spilboer
But listen, don't you. So this is even weirder now. So he's getting wrapped up like a mummy in Saran wrap, saying audibly, loud enough for this roommate to hear, like, this is what you do when you got a roommate there. And the roommate is listening to this man say, stop, I'm going to pay you to stop. But. But what is he doing? Like, watching his butt head and jerking off in his bedroom. Like, what was he doing when this was, this murder was being committed?
- [43:42]
Mark Garagos
I'm wondering the same thing. I was like, wait for you. Up until that moment, you thought that this was a friend and not somebody who's getting paid. I mean, none of this, this, none of this. I mean, I've had cases where I've represented the. Unfortunately, the women on the receiving end who get hired out to get beat up. It's awful. And. But you know, there are fetishes out there and that's why this is called.
- [44:09]
Arthur (Host)
But, you know, I will tell you, Mark, the judge. So this, what we heard was testimony from a preliminary hearing where the judge has to determine here to go forward to a trial or not. It's the AR equivalent to a grand jury here in New York. And the judge said, yes, there is. But he was hesitant. He goes, you know, I don't know what, what a jury is really going to find. I mean, this guy is paying for it and is there the intent? Right? I mean, you both can.
- [44:38]
Mark Garagos
Well, Arthur, in California, my joke, I say it jokingly about the preliminary hearings which you're talking about, what this was, that's a probable cause proceeding. We use those as often as you use the grand jury in New York. But I always say the standard now is client breathing. That's probable cause in California. So even the judge was articulating. When somebody says, the glue my eyes shut because you're the last woman I ever want to see. That's a pretty hard statement to get over. When the roommate thought you were friends. And it was consensual up until that moment when the guy utters something about, I'll pay you extra. So it's hard to believe that this is a murder case.
- [45:27]
Arthur (Host)
Well, this is a case that I think MK True Crime should follow. Seriously. Because it is one of those cases that's like on the cutting edge. It's on the knife's edge. Is it murder? Is it an accident. His law, you know, his lawyer. Her lawyer, I should say, is saying, look, she had no intent to kill anybody. She was doing exactly what he wanted. Actually, she can argue I didn't go as far as as he wanted me to go. I was using due diligence. This will be an interesting one to keep our eyes on. Boy, the time is going so quickly with these two wonderful guests, Mark and Jonna. Next, your emails, our closing arguments, which I'm holding onto my seat with, and an unconventional way a man got his buddy out on bond. They tones.
- [46:16]
Arthur Idalla
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- [46:57]
Arthur (Host)
All right, welcome back to MK True Crime. Well, here's a good one. A guy was able to successfully impersonate a judge to get an inmate's bond reduced, his bail reduced, enabling the release, the release from jail. So he, he duped everyone saying he was the judge, and I'm lowering his bond. Usually that's done at a police station. And then the guy gets, gets to walk out. And they did catch him. He's facing a whole slew of charges, including false impersonation, assisting impersonation, assisting escape, attempted simple escape, injuring public records, etc, Mark. John, I ever have anyone try to scoot out of the system or get out of the system or jump out of a window or something?
- [47:39]
Jona Spilboer
Don't they do it all the time? Are you guys, are you guys old enough to remember? What was that? Welcome Back Cotter. Do you remember that show? Welcome Back Carter?
- [47:47]
Arthur (Host)
It's from Brooklyn. It's set in Brooklyn. Are you nuts? Of course.
- [47:51]
Jona Spilboer
Do you remember, you remember Epstein? Like he would always try to get out of something by saying, by writing a note from Epstein's mother. Epstein's mother. Well, this is like the jail equivalent. Somebody called the jail, like Epstein's mother said, let this guy out. What kind of idiot would fall for that? Although I will say north or you know this. Although in my neck of the woods, you can have judges in these Small little courts, they're not even lawyers. You don't have to be a lawyer to be a judge in the town and village courts in New York. So, you know, maybe, maybe it could happen.
- [48:21]
Mark Garagos
We used to have, we used to have in LA a bail review line where you could call the line, there was signs in custody, you would dial the number. I still remember the, it was three five one something or other. And I had people who tried to do it, but nobody was ever successful. This, this person is at a new, whole new level.
- [48:44]
Arthur (Host)
I did have a guy when I was prosecutor and the judge was about to, he was at liberty, was about to send him to jail. He hopped right over the rail and he ran to the door. But the great New York state court was just grabbed him before he got too far. Now, before we wrap up this whole show and get to our clothing arguments, I want to talk about a email that we got from Melanie where she says, I'm wondering if you all could cover the point of view regarding legal implications for parents of school shooter perpetrators whose parents were negligent in reporting guns the perpetrators acquired while experiencing mental breaks. Donna?
- [49:25]
Jona Spilboer
Yeah, well, so I think we're going to see more of it. And the case in point, the one of the, I don't even think it's the most recent, but it's the most notable. The Crumbley case where the parents, James and Jennifer Crumbley, their son was Ethan Crumbley. They were tried separately. They were both convicted because they in essence did not do enough to stop their son from going on this rampage. When the claim is that they knew, so they, they knew that he had mental instability. They knew that he had access to a gun. So they were convicted of involuntary manslaughter back in 2021. And the name of the case is escaping me, but I think, you guys, that there's even a more recent case where either parents have been charged or they may be charged.
- [50:04]
Arthur (Host)
And in fact, everyone's thinking about this because of the Tyler Robinson case and regarding Charlie Kirk and was anyone there, anyone around it and anyone could have prevented it. So without further ado, thank you, Melanie, for your email. I want to go to Mark Aragos and you got a minute to tell us what's on your mind, your closing argument, counselor?
- [50:28]
Mark Garagos
Well, it was interesting that somebody, we talked about the idea of whether or not you would represent somebody like Tyler Robinson. And it makes me think about a question I often get, and I know Johnna, and you, Arthur, have gotten this a million times is how do you sleep at night, if you're defending somebody who guilty. And I, I know that it's somewhat facile, but I will tell you that if you don't defend the worst of the worst, what ends up happening is when you really get sleepless nights, which is when you're defending somebody that you think is innocent. And the idea that somehow the defense lawyer will make the decision of factual guilt or innocence as a prerequisite to whether or not you're going to represent them, I think that's, that's the first kind of erosion of the system. And that is, I think John is absolutely right that if you believe you can't give your heart and soul to a client, you have no business representing them. And I'll invoke Scalia again where he says lawyers all the time make decisions based on money as to who they're going to defend. But if it is somebody that is charged and is the worst of the worst, so to speak, and trust me, all of us have represented at various times people who are characterized as the most hated man or woman around. I've certainly done my share. At the same time, I think the system falls apart and you end up having a very, very horrible, horrible kind of parade of consequences if you don't have people who are willing to defend the, what is commonly at one moment in time thought of as the worst. The worst.
- [52:22]
Arthur (Host)
All right. Defending the Constitution by Mark Garagos.
- [52:26]
Jona Spilboer
I appreciate it.
- [52:26]
Arthur (Host)
John Spilbar, let us, let us hear your closing argument. Counselor.
- [52:30]
Jona Spilboer
You want my, my seven minute, one minute closing argument?
- [52:34]
Arthur (Host)
Okay, thank you.
- [52:35]
Jona Spilboer
Okay. Charlie Kirk had a gift. He would look someone in the eye and without raising his voice, ask them to define what they believed. He didn't need to shout them down, he just let them talk. And in that space their gibberish would often collapse under its own weight. We have learned in the gut wrenching aftermath of his assassination that a swath, a disgusting, despicable swath of society actually celebrated the death of this 31 year old, God fearing father of two, whose mission was to get people, most especially our dumbed down youth, talking and thinking critically and intelligently. In his honor, I will address the vile pieces of actual shit who continue to smile, cheer or smugly celebrate the horrific, culturally significant loss of Charlie Kirk in a way that might make Charlie a smidge proud. Save the foul language I'm about to let fly because I gotta be me. Let me help you define exactly what you believe because you deserve to be called out for what you are. First, celebrating the death of A good human makes you an irredeemable moron. Definition. An irredeemable moron is one who does not simply lack intelligence, but rejects wisdom. You aren't confused. You're committed to stupidity. You clap at violence. Pooh, pooh the truth and convince yourself that cruelty is somehow virtuous. You are wrong. Then we have the uncivilized degenerates. These are people who enjoy every blessing of a civilized society. Freedom, currency, comfort, safety. And yet behave like they earned the free TV pulled from a big box store they themselves set on fire. You cheer barbarism. You revel in bloodshed. You degrade the very society that made your voice possible. You are scum. And finally, the sick fucks. Adjective, noun, definition. You're the worst of the worst. The twisted ones who enjoy violence and sexual sorrow. Who see assassination not as a national tragedy, but as entertainment. Those who treat death as a joke to be laughed at and depravity as some sort of right. This isn't politics. This isn't free speech. This is pathology. The sickness of a soul that takes pleasure in other people's pain and responsibility for none of it. That's who you are deserving of the karmic leprosy you create. And in Charlie's spirit, I'll end the same way he so often did by handing the floor back to you with one simple phrase. Prove me wrong.
- [55:34]
Arthur (Host)
Thank you, Johnna. And I'm not going to prove you wrong. But I am going to try to stick by the rules and keep my remarks. My closing argument to one minute. That's what the judge told me along the lines of the conversation we're having. The lack of respect in our society at this time point in time. And I don't just mean around Charlie Kirk. The lack of respect for the country, the lack of respect for the American flag, a lack of respect for our own parents. You know, I made a joke earlier that my dad's 87 years old and I still. I fear him. I mean, I know. I know he can't physically hurt me, but if he's upset with me, it upsets me. And we've lost a lot of that. The lack of respect for a dress code. You walk into courtrooms now, folks and people, lawyers who used to dress the best they could, dress like they're going to a baseball game. We need some of that back. My wife brilliantly made the decision to send my two little children to a school where they start the day with the Pledge of Allegiance. They say the star, they sing this the Star Spangled Banner. And then in our culture they say the Our Father prayer. I think we could all use a little bit of that. Charlie Kirk was all about that. And I think if we got that respect and that dignity and that discipline back into all of our lives, we'd be more tolerant and acceptance of other people's point of views. And we would step in if we saw someone going off the rails and prevent, maybe prevent some of these horrible tragedies from taking place. God bless America. Thanks to my fellow contributors, Donna and Mark. They really are the creme de la creme. Thank you for joining us today at MK True Crime. Send us your story, suggestions, questions and comments@mk true crimeevilmaycaremedia.com show drops on Friday. Have a great rest of your week.
- [57:45]
Mark Garagos
Welcome back to Listen to YOUR Heart. I'm Jerry.
- [57:47]
Andrew Smith
And I'm Jerry's Heart.
- [57:49]
Mark Garagos
Today's topic, Repatha evoloimab Heart. Why'd you pick this one?
- [57:53]
Andrew Smith
Well, Jerry, for people who have had a heart attack like us, diet and exercise might not be enough to lower the risk of another one.
- [58:00]
Mark Garagos
Okay.
- [58:01]
Andrew Smith
To help know if we're at risk, we should be getting our ldlc, our bad cholesterol checked and talking to our doctor.
- [58:06]
Mark Garagos
I'm listening.
- [58:07]
Andrew Smith
And if it's still too high, Repatha can be added to a statin to lower our LDL C and our heart attack risk.
- [58:13]
Mark Garagos
Hmm. Guess it's time to ask about Repatha.
- [58:16]
I
Do not take Repatha if you are allergic to it. Serious allergic reactions can occur. Get medical help right away if you have trouble breathing or swallowing, swelling of the face, lips, tongue, throat or arms. Common side effects include runny nose, sore throat, common cold symptoms, flu or flu like symptoms, back pain, high blood sugar and redness, pain or bruising at the injection site.
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Mark Garagos
Listen to your heart.
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Andrew Smith
Ask your doctor about Repatha. Learn more at repatha.com or call 1-844-repatha@designer Shoe Warehouse. We believe that shoes are an important part of, well, everything.
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