D4vd Now Seen as Suspect in Teen’s Death, Kaylee Goncalves’ Family’s Next Move, and Fetish Murder in FL

Summary

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MK True Crime – Episode Summary

Podcast: MK True Crime
Host: Dave Aronberg
Contributors: Johnna Spilbor (Criminal Defense Attorney), Arthur Aidala (NY Trial Attorney)
Date: November 21, 2025
Episode: "D4vd Now Seen as Suspect in Teen’s Death, Kaylee Goncalves' Family’s Next Move, and Fetish Murder in FL"

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Overview

In this rich, lively episode of MK True Crime, host Dave Aronberg and contributors Johnna Spilbor and Arthur Aidala analyze and debate three headline-grabbing cases currently dominating the true crime landscape:

1. Singer D4vd (David) emerging as a suspect in the death of Celeste Rivas Hernandez
2. Kaylee Goncalves’ family planning to sue Washington State University over their daughter’s murder by Bryan Kohberger
3. A Florida ‘fetish murder’ case involving a man accused of killing and dismembering a UK woman he met online

The hosts provide nuanced legal analysis, probe the limits of circumstantial evidence, explore the ethics of institutional responsibility, and discuss the challenges of prosecuting and defending in high-profile cases, all with banter and memorable personality.

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Detailed Breakdown & Key Discussion Points

1. The D4vd/Celeste Rivas Hernandez Case

Segment Start: [00:48]

• Background: Singer D4vd (David) is now formally considered a suspect after the dismembered body of teenage girlfriend Celeste Rivas Hernandez was found in the trunk of his Tesla.
• Key Evidence: Police traced David’s cell phone to a remote location two and a half hours from his residence, close to the body’s discovery site ([00:48]).
• Legal Panel Perspective:
  • Johnna: “Is anybody surprised that he’s finally considered a suspect in this case? I mean, anytime you have a dead body that’s found in the trunk of your car, you should be a suspect.” ([02:44])
  • Arthur plays 'defense': Argues the car was used by handlers; no confirmed cause of death; the dismemberment likely required more than one person; stresses David’s innocence and career ([03:50]).
  • Johnna points out the ‘unused Tesla’ is still registered to David and posits, “Would you put it in your favorite [car]? ... By expressing the fact that he didn’t like the Tesla, you just sunk your client, Mr. Idella.” ([05:11])
  • Cell phone records can be decisive, even with attempts to go off-grid.
• Cause of Death Delay: Discussion on why the Medical Examiner hasn’t released cause of death—possibly due to missing body parts or complexity of dismemberment ([07:52]–[08:12]).
• Memorable/Eloquent Moments:
  • Jonna: “Of course, he’s a suspect—the dead body in his car, and they had a relationship. There are texting issues. So of course, he’s a suspect. But there’s a lot more hoops to jump through before a prosecutor says, okay, let’s go into a grand jury...” ([09:09])
  • Arthur: “We would actually make the ultimate decision only on homicides, but whether the case should go forward, whether we would authorize an arrest. We would kind of one up the law enforcement arm of it, because we’re the ones ultimately who have to stand in front of the jury...” ([10:31])
• Prosecutorial Ethics:
  • Dave: “As a prosecutor, you’re under an ethical duty… only to get an indictment when you have a good faith belief you can get a conviction beyond a reasonable doubt, that is a much higher burden than police who only need probable cause...” ([09:52])

Notable Quote:

“People forget. He probably turned [his phone] off, had it in airplane mode. It doesn’t matter. They always ping your cell phone and they can find where you are.”
— Johnna Spilbor [03:00]

2. Goncalves Family’s Notice to Sue WSU (Bryan Kohberger Case)

Segment Start: [15:14]

• Story: Family of Kaylee Goncalves (victim of Idaho quadruple murder) plans a civil suit against Washington State University, claiming prior complaints about Kohberger's ‘creepy’ behavior were ignored.
• Civil vs. Criminal Burden:
  • Dave: “You only need a preponderance of the evidence... and they’re going to… is it more likely than not that the university breached its duty of care?” ([15:14])
• Plaintiffs’ Theory: WSU should have acted on warnings; could share blame for not preventing Kohberger’s crimes.
• Legal Skepticism:
  • Arthur: Explains that in civil law, lawyers have more leeway than prosecutors to go on “fishing expeditions.” Notices rather than lawsuits allow for deeper inquiries ([16:17]).
  • Johnna: “Don’t you think that’s a bridge too far? Slippery slope. I mean, how is it foreseeable that a guy who’s a creep... is going to end up murdering four people...?” ([17:58])
  • Arthur: “The sympathy factor here is on another scale.... Can you see the insurance company from the university saying, okay, why don’t we sit down quietly, and we’ll give each family [an] amount of dollars?” ([18:48])
• Foreseeability & Causation:
  • Hosts agree defenses will likely argue the murders were not foreseeable from campus conduct, especially with events happening in another state ([19:21]).

Notable Quote:

“If you have the facts on your side, you pound the facts. If you have the law on your side, you pound the law. And you’ve got neither on your side, you pound the table. Or if you’re Arthur Idalla, you jump on the table.”
— Dave Aronberg [21:33]

3. Texas Flood Tragedy – Camp Mystic Lawsuit

Segment Start: [24:39]

• Incident: Parents suing Camp Mystic after catastrophic July 4 floods killed 25 girls and two counselors.
• Legal Framing: Unlike the Kohberger suit, this case features clear causation and substantial precedent for liability—floods have happened there before ([24:39]–[25:41]).
• Moral/Ethical Debate:
  • Dave: “Is it right or wrong to even reopen? I do think that they should not reopen. I think ... It is not doing a service to the memory of those lost.” ([28:17])
  • Johnna: “They should have closed their doors. ... They should turn that campground into some sort of memorial and...move on. It’s disgusting. It’s worse than a plane crash, you guys.” ([29:04])
• Insurance & Protocols:
  • Arthur: Insurance companies would require major new protocols to even consider reinsuring; historic flooding record suggests risk should have been recognized ([27:03], [32:11])

4. Florida Fetish Murder Case

Segment Start: [34:31]

• Incident: Dwayne Hall, 53, accused of luring Sonia Exelby (UK) to Florida for violent sexual fantasies, then murdering and dismembering her, hiding the weapon, sending incriminating messages ([34:31]).
• Defense’s Likely Approach: Claims the victim consented to ‘risky’ acts or wanted to die—roundly dismissed.
  • Johnna: “It wouldn’t be a defense anyway because you cannot contract to have somebody kill you. ... It’s really a crappy defense. I don’t think it’s going to fly.” ([36:34])
  • Arthur: “This is...one of these cases when you go in [and] talk about a plea bargain and say, how about, you know, we figure out a way for my client...maybe he gets out at 78 years old. Give him a flat 25 [years].” ([36:54])
• Banter: Extended joke about ‘vanilla sex’ and ‘pistachio’ (Johnna’s new nickname) add comic relief to a grim segment ([38:05], [39:31]).
• Consensus: Overwhelming evidence and disturbing motives mean a strong case for prosecution.

5. Audience Q&A: Does True Crime Podcast Listening Disqualify a Juror?

Segment Start: [46:27]

• Arthur (on juror disclosure): "It is absolutely wrong to lie during jury selection about anything, but especially about your knowledge of that particular case." ([47:50])
• Johnna: “If you’re not lying and you don’t have an agenda but you know about a case, you can respectfully serve on a jury.” ([48:41])

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Memorable Quotes & Moments

• On Prosecutorial Ethics:
  “As a prosecutor, you’re under an ethical duty only to file charges ... when you have a good faith belief you can get a conviction beyond a reasonable doubt.” — Dave Aronberg ([09:52])

• On Legal Responsibility and Sympathy:
  "The sympathy factor here is on another scale ... Very few cases ... are this disturbing. ... God bless that judge for doing the right thing." — Arthur Aidala ([18:48])

• On Institutional Accountability:
  “They should have apologized profusely... turn that campground into some sort of memorial and ... move on. It’s disgusting. It’s worse than a plane crash, you guys.” — Johnna Spilbor ([29:04])

• On Legal Practice:
  "If you have the facts on your side, you pound the facts. If you have the law on your side, you pound the law. And you’ve got neither on your side, you pound the table. Or if you’re Arthur Idalla, you jump on the table." — Dave Aronberg ([21:33])

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Closing Rants

Segment Start: [48:59]

• Johnna's Legendary Rant ([49:10]):
  Delivers a comedic, pointed PSA on “How Not To Drive Like a Situationally Unaware Jerk” for the Thanksgiving holiday, covering right turns, traffic circles, and school bus etiquette.

  “Let’s be clear, however, I am strongly against the extended mama Bear to bus driver pep talk or gossip sesh or book club update... Can we confine the conversation...to a quick hi, bye...or do we need a whole new enforcement system similar to the pitch clock in baseball?” ([49:10])

• Arthur's Rant ([52:26]):
  Offers an impassioned and controversial critique of the Ghislaine Maxwell prosecution and the media/political circus surrounding Jeffrey Epstein, questioning the allocation of resources and highlighting the constitutional violations and media hysteria:

  “Anybody who thinks [the Epstein case] is not about politics and it’s about justice for the women...that’s just not how our system works...We should be ashamed the way this whole thing has been handled.” ([52:26])

• Dave's Rant ([57:09]):
  Reflects on the difficulties of being a prosecutor and cautions against political prosecutions, invoking Blackstone’s Ratio and constitutional priorities, using a recent prosecutorial misstep as illustration:

  “It may look easy to play prosecutor, but if you don’t have the law or the facts on your side, that Lemon is headed for the junkyard of history.” ([59:46])

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• D4vd Murder Investigation: [00:48] – [13:10]
• Bryan Kohberger Lawsuit Discussion: [15:14] – [21:33]
• Texas Camp Mystic Flood Lawsuits: [24:39] – [34:31]
• Florida Fetish Murder Case: [34:31] – [42:49]
• Live Show Recap / Mailbag: [42:49] – [48:59]
• Closing Rants: [48:59] – [60:33]

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Episode Tone

The episode mixes serious, meticulous legal analysis with witty banter and unfiltered opinions. The personalities of the hosts shine, and debates are passionate yet collegial. Johnna’s humor delights (earning her the moniker “Pistachio”), while Arthur provides animated, sometimes polarizing, defenses and critiques. Dave acts as moderator but also injects wry, experienced commentary.

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For New Listeners

This episode is a quintessential example of the MK True Crime podcast’s blend of legal expertise, current events insight, and charismatic discussion. It deftly covers the intricacies of high-profile cases, the challenges of prosecution and defense, and ethical questions of institutional liability, all without shying away from controversy or levity. Even without prior knowledge of the headline cases, listeners will walk away informed, entertained, and ready to debate the issues themselves.

Transcript

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[A]

Welcome to MK True Crime. I'm Dave Aronberg, your host today. I'm the former state attorney for Palm beach county and AKA the Florida lawman and current managing partner of Dave Harenberg Law. Here's what's on the docket. Singer David is now being considered a suspect in the death of the dismembered teenage girl found in his trunk. We'll bring you the latest. The family of one of Bryan Kohberger's victims intends to sue Washington State University, claiming the school had many complaints about his creepy behavior. A Florida man. There's always a Florida connection to everything. Was arrested for murder after connecting with a young woman on a fetish website who he claims wanted to die. We'll bring you the bizarre story and more. I'm joined today by fellow MK True Crime contributors John Espilbor, criminal defense attorney and founding attorney of John Espilbore Law, and Arthur Adala, New York trial attorney. Two New Yorkers here in the house. And I'm coming to you live from the 6th borough in South Florida. We start with the news about the singer David. Multiple news outlets are reporting that sources close to the investigation are saying that David is now considered a suspect in the murder of teenager Celeste Rivas Hernandez, who was found dead in the trunk of David's Tesla in September. Now, here's the crazy thing about this case, and I'll start with you, Jonna, is that they have now identified that David was two and a half hours away from where he lives, in the boonies, away from Los Angeles, in the Boones where the body was found. So somehow they traced him there, perhaps through his cell phone, and they found that he was somehow in that very rural area, that area that is not populated. Why would he be there? And why was he there late at night? It sure looks suspicious.

[D]

Doesn't sure does. But can I just Say, is anybody surprised that he's finally considered a suspect in this case? I mean, anytime you have a dead body that's found in the trunk of your car, you should be a suspect.

[E]

But.

[D]

Yeah, and it's always the cell phone, you guys. People forget. He probably turned it off, had it in airplane mode. It doesn't matter. They always ping your cell phone and they can find where you are.

[B]

And.

[D]

And this is going to be a beautiful circumstantial fact when and if he does get actually indicted, because you're right. Does being in an area where a dead body was found make you the murderer? No, but it will likely be one of many circumstantial facts that will come to pass and could add up to his guilt.

[A]

Well, if there's anyone who can get him off these charges, it's Arthur Idalla. Now, John, you're a pretty damn good lawyer yourself. Arthur Dala would do a press conference, would yell at the prosecutors, make us feel bad about ourselves.

[B]

Yep.

[A]

And then crush us in court. What do you think about this?

[B]

Just because the guy happened to be in Santa Barbara and the body happens to be in his car. He is a celebrity. He's got people all around him. He's got handlers, by the way, ladies and gentlemen, jury. He has three cars. And, you know, many people had access to his cars, and he didn't actually like the Tesla. He's not a real electric car kind of guy. So he wasn't even using that car. We don't even know which one of the people around him was using that car. Yes, it was registered in his name, but you know what? A lot of businesses have a lot of cars registered in the business name, and we don't know who are you? Who's using them. There has been no cause of death. The medical examiner doesn't know how this individual died. The individual was dismembered. And the likelihood. Likelihood is that took at least two people to do that. And my client is absolutely innocent. He's got a brilliant career. He had no reason to go after this woman whatsoever. And I think that the medical examiner and the LAPD and the detective squad there have to do their job and find out who the real killer is.

[A]

Well, the medical examiner and the police aren't getting along right now. I guess they've been delaying the cause of death. It's sort of a crimp in the plans of law enforcement. Jona, you said that this was a good circumstantial case. So how would you take on Mr. Idalla? In this one.

[D]

Well, first of all, I would challenge Mr. Idalla because, for example, Mr. Adala, if you are going to dismember a body and put it in the trunk of one of your many cars, because, like David, you have a few. Would you put it in your favorite? Would you put it in your Bentley? No, you would put it in your Subaru. You know that I don't have one of those either. You just sunk your client, Mr. Idella, by expressing the fact that he didn't like the Tesla.

[B]

It's a car that he doesn't use, ladies and gentlemen. It's a car he doesn't use. He gives it to one of his schleppers when they have to go run an errand. Here, just take this car. I don't use this car. The bottom line is there's this huge gap of time for. From when this poor woman is deceased until they find her body. And my client is not so stupid to dismember a body, put it in his own car, and then leave it in LA in a very high density traffic area. If he was, he would have left it in a hole with some lime on it out in the woods of Santa Barbara.

[A]

Why was he in this remote area? And I know I called it a. I called it a rural area. It's a remote area. Was he doing there? No one goes there.

[B]

No people go there to fool around. It's like Inspiration Point in Happy Days. That's.

[D]

Oh, that's what he needed to do around. Yes, he has it. I'm sure he has a posh.

[B]

It's not as romantic. It is not as romantic as the woods. The. The Santa Barbara is one of the most beautiful places on the planet. Or watch the sunset and let. Let Mother nature take its course through. During our love affair. That's.

[D]

What time of day was he? What time was he there? Wasn't it in the wee hours? I mean.

[B]

Oh, well, you know, the sun eventually sets and it gets dark.

[D]

You. You guys are forgetting a fact from a previous show. This guy, they used to text.

[E]

He.

[D]

David and this. And his girlfriend, the victim used to text. And then there was a big gap in that text correspondence in that relationship. And why. I challenge you, Mr. Idella. Would there be such a gap if he didn't know that she was dead? Why did he know? Because he killed her.

[B]

Right now, all they really have, lawman, is, you know, sadly, a tragic dismembered body. They have it in my client's car. And I get it. That's not a Great place for it to be. But short of that, what do they really have? I mean, you cannot find him guilty. You don't even have a cause of death. You don't know if she died from cancer or, or. Or if she died from strangulation or. I mean, they, they don't have a. Obviously, I guess there's no bullet holes. Well, that would be a pretty. Or knife wounds. That would be a pretty obvious cause of death.

[A]

Jonna, it is a question of what's taken the medical examiner so long. Is it because she was dismembered? I mean, they've had experience with dismembered bodies before. Why the delay?

[D]

That's my guess. Here's the one fact. I don't know. Maybe you guys do. Did they find all the parts? I don't mean to sound gross. Do they have all the parts? Like. Or are they missing some parts? Because that could delay things too.

[B]

And I'm not read anything about them missing anything. It just said a dismembered body and that it would be rather difficult, despite what you see in Goodfellas and these other movies, for one person to dismember a body. It's just. It's not an easy task to dismember.

[D]

But we just had a case where somebody used a special saw to dismember a body.

[B]

Well, now you got electricity involved, usually if you're talking about some sort of an electrical saw. So if you're talking about you're in the woods of Santa Barbara and you're in a trunk of a car and you're in a very crowded area in la, where are you getting an extension cord to go plug in a jigsaw to, to cut somebody up. But if you have somebody else there, you know, there's two people soaring away or hacking away. Disgusting thing. But it's the truth.

[D]

Dave, here's Arthur's defense. He's going to tell the jury that Sasquatch assisted. Sasquatch did it.

[B]

We don't mean to make light about this. We're not making light of others at all. But the, the facts right now, I mean, John has started off absolutely correct. Of course he's a suspect. The dead body in his car and they had a relationship. It's not like it's a stranger in his car. So it's a dead body in his car. They had a relationship. There are texting issues. So of course he's a suspect. But there's a lot more, a lot more hoops to jump through before a prosecutor says, okay, let's go into a grand jury and see if we get an indictment on this guy and be able to stand in front of a judge and say we will be able to prove the charges against this defendant beyond a reasonable doubt. And, you know, let the games begin. There's a lot of real estate that we have and not accomplished at this point.

[D]

I agree with that.

[A]

Well, that is true, because as a prosecutor, you're under an ethical duty only to file charges, only to get an indictment. When you have a good faith belief, you can get a conviction beyond a reasonable doubt, that is a much higher burden than police who only need probable cause to charge with a crime. Grand juries only need probable cause to move forward and indict. But as a prosecutor, you can't just go in there thinking, all right, I got probable cause, but I don't think I can get a conviction beyond a reasonable doubt yet, then it's unethical to file those charges or seek an indictment. So I think you've got a point, Arthur. Especially if the lawyer is on is like you now, have you been called yet by David to join his team?

[B]

But just to tell folks a little bit also how the sausage is made, at least in my experience, when I was a prosecutor in Brooklyn during the heyday of crime here, we wouldn't allow the police to make the arrest unless we felt confident. We, meaning the prosecutor's office, felt confident that we could go into the grand jury and get an indictment and prove the case beyond reasonable doubt. And the detectives often would be pissed at us. They'd be like, come on, there's enough there. There's enough there. And I remember one particular occasion, I'm like, there's not, man. There's not. I could do my best, but it's. There's just too many what ifs. What is. Any decent lawyer is going to be able to shred this like a piece of Swiss cheese. But we would actually make the ultimate decision only on homicides, but whether the case should go forward, whether we would authorize an arrest. We would kind of one up the law enforcement arm of it, because we're the ones ultimately who have to stand in front of the jury and present all the evidence, hoping to get a conviction.

[A]

When I was state attorney, I used to like saying that the cops want us to file every case, the defense lawyers want us to drop every case, and the judges want us to settle every case. So those are the competing considerations as a prosecutor. John, I'll give you the last word before we move on to talk about Co Burger.

[D]

Well, I do agree with my co counsel, Mr. Idella, that there are, there are a lot more facts that I think prosecutor police are going to have to uncover before they're going to comfortably get an indictment, even though it is easy to get an indictment. And I am curious as to why it is taking certain things so long because this didn't happen yesterday. And they do have a dead body, even though it's dismembered and they've got some pings on a cell phone. There's probably more that that they already have that we don't know about. So we have to stay tuned for this.

[A]

Yes. All right. I, I said we'd move on. But I have one final question. How many of us have heard of David before this incident? Have you ever heard of him as a.

[B]

By show of hands?

[A]

Yeah, show of hands. How many of us have heard of him? None.

[D]

Not me.

[A]

We're not his target audience. But yeah, but I am gonna go see Rush on their reunion tour. Two out of the three members, so that's.

[B]

I've heard of David Ayerberg, but not David. David with a four. You can think about changing your name there. Aaron Burton.

[A]

I was thinking about putting a number in my name. Yes. Yes.

[B]

All right, go for it and enjoy Rush.

[A]

Thank you. They're the best. My favorite band of all time. But that's for another day. Maybe I'll dedicate my rant in the future to the Holy Trinity. Geddy Lee, Alex Lice and Neil Peart. Leave a comment if you're a fellow Rush fan.

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[A]

Let's talk about Bryan Kohberger, another gruesome case and a creepy gruesome individual. So now the families, at least one family is planning to sue Washington State University because remember he was a teacher there and he was acting in a weird way towards students, towards others and people are creeped out by him. And so it's Steven Chrissy Gonzalez, that's the parents of victim Kaylee Gonzalez. They intend to file a tort claim. So we're not talking about criminal law here, talking about civil law, much easier to prove. You only need a preponderance of the evidence and they're going to, which is just is it more likely than not that the university breached its duty of care? And I don't know, do they have a duty of care here that if they see some weirdo on campus that they have to what, banish him from campus? And if they even did banish him from campus, he could have still done this atrocity anyway. So I don't know about this lawsuit. What do you guys think? How about you, Arthur? What do you think about this tort.

[B]

Claim, you know, to tie in what we what you just said and as a story prosecutor yourself about your ethical obligations before you bring a case. And a prosecutor has those ethical obligations. A lawyer filing a civil lawsuit does not have the same obligations. Right. You're not trying to put someone in jail, take away somebody's liberty.

[D]

You have to be ethical, though.

[B]

You have to. But you're allowed to go on a fishing expedition. And if you notice they haven't filed in this particular case a full lawsuit. They put a notice like, we're, we're, we're, we're thinking about it and it gives them some ability, I think, to use a subpoena power. And the lawyer is saying, we, look, we just need to know more about what happened and figure out if this could have been prevented. And there's some stuff there, David, that does raise an eyebrow. He was more than just a creep walking around campus. In civil law, there's a notice provision in certain circumstances. Did you know there was a pothole there before the woman fell and broke her leg? Those kinds of. Was it. Was, was the government on notice that that was a problem? Well, here it seems like there were a couple of very specific complaints about this guy scaring people. A woman said, you know, I, I refused to go on a date with him and he cornered me several times and I was afraid to walk home alone. And a neighbor said they saw someone lurking outside my window. There were like two or three different complaints against him that may have put. And I bet you now, because of this case, other campuses would be a little bit more proactive in guys investigating and taking a look at who this creep was.

[D]

Don't you think that's a bridge too far? Slippery slope. I mean, how is it foreseeable that a guy who's a creep on a college campus is going to end up murdering four people off campus? I think that the force, I think they, the plaintiffs, potential plaintiffs, would lose based on the foreseeability element because it's just simply not there. But having said that, I agree with you. They probably had to put the campus, the university on notice. Maybe there's a statute of limitations coming up. Maybe they just had to preserve that in some regard. Or maybe it's strategy where they say, look, we're going to come after you. We're going to try to dig as far as the court will let us dig. Maybe the university will quietly sit, settle.

[B]

The sympathy factor here.

[D]

Right.

[B]

Is on another scale. Right. I mean, there are very few cases that are this disturbing. I will compliment whatever judge prevented the crime scene photos from being released because they were. After he took the plea and he was sentenced, there was some application to have the crime scene photos released. The judge said no, on behalf of the families. God bless that judge for doing the right thing. But in a case like this, can you see the insurance company from the university saying, okay, why don't we sit down quietly, and we'll give each family amount of dollars?

[A]

Yep, I get all that. But if these were students who were murdered on campus at washington state by this creep, I get a lawsuit. But the students who were murdered didn't come from Washington state. They were in another state altogether. University of idaho and Moscow, Idaho. And so what does, as John said, how is it foreseeable? Or where's the causation that anything he did by creeping out women on washington state's campus led to the tragic quadruple homicide in Moscow, Idaho?

[B]

Fantastic point that the defense will make.

[D]

And here's the problem with this case, as you both pointed out, it garners so much sympathy or empathy from the world that it's going to be difficult to challenge. For that reason, you can't come in. You can't be, you know, Arthur idalla jumping on the table, arguing against paying the parents of these victims money because people are gonna, you know, fire a brimstone. I think because.

[B]

No, John, I. I really did jump on the table one when I was a prosecutor.

[D]

I have no doubt.

[B]

And it was. David, you'd appreciate it. It was a prosecutor. It was a one witness ID Case of a robbery. And the one witness who identified the defendant, he was pretty far away. However, he was a construction worker, and he was on one of those big asphalt rollers. So I went out to the scene. I found an asphalt roller. I saw how high it was, and I saw, like, where his line of sight would have been. No eyewitnesses. In my summation, he said. And I told the judge ahead of time, and he was like, all right, do whatever you got to do, Artie. The judge, John delorey, God bless him. I was like, folks, he didn't just see him right from here, from street level. I go, look where he was. And I. At that time, I was 25, 26. I just jumped up onto the table and I go, look at me. For the top of the world. I was doing a Leonardo dicaprio thing. And then Titanic. I was like, I can see everything from up here. And sure enough, after they convicted him, when I saw the jury in the hallway, I remember two of the jurors were like, you know, Mr. Idalla, I definitely had reasonable doubt. Then you jumped on that table, and you're like, yeah, he did have a different point of view. He could see things differently. He did have a positive id. And there you go.

[A]

Well, you know what they say, right? If you have the facts on your side, you pound the facts. If you have the law on your side, you pound the law. And you've got neither on your side, you pound the table. Or if you're Arthur Idalla, you jump on the table. And it works. Well done, sir. So we're going to take a break because we're going to go to our next block and talk about a bizarre fetish murder and the families of the children lost earlier this year in the Texas floods suing Camp Mystic. Remember, you can email us. We love to read your comments and story suggestions. Email us at mktruecrimelmakecaremedia.com that's mktruecrimelmaycaremedia.com holiday.

[F]

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[A]

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[B]

A.

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[A]

The parents of flood victims are now suing Camp mystic for gross negligence. On July 4, 25 little girls and two teenage counselors died in catastrophic flooding. Flooding at the camp in Texas. Now this is different than the situation at the University of Idaho and Washington State University where we have questions of causation, questions of foreseeability here. There are legitimate allegations that because of the actions of the counselors and administration of Camp Mistick, they put these kids in a situation where it led to their demise. And they were just sitting ducks when there were floods, floods that could have easily be foreseen because they've happened before. And here's some images and just heartbreaking. I mean this, this is to me a preventable tragedy. And that's why I think the lawsuits would be really strong here, really powerful. And yeah, this is just these images are tough to see. Jonna, what are your thoughts about this?

[D]

This case is really hard to fathom. I just. Your hearts go out to all the parents. And part of what is driving them other than obviously the tragic loss of their children, is somehow some way, you guys, this camp remains in operation. Like they're, they're going to be open for the next season. And I don't know if there's been any subsequent remedial measure to make sure that the little camp goers are going to be safe. Like that's just really slapping the parents in the face. But here again, similarly, I think the insurance company is going to already has their checkbook out, in my opinion, and going to start writing checks for this. But that's, that only solves part of the problem. How is this camp going to keep future attendees safe? And even if they could assure what parent is going to allow their children to go there, it seems like they should really just close their doors.

[A]

Well, do you remember in Idaho, remember they tore down the house, the Coburger house right here.

[B]

The.

[A]

They're planning on reopening the camp in 2026.

[B]

It's the 100th anniversary, David. Hey, that's why they're opening. It's the 100th anniversary.

[A]

What are you. You're gonna ignore, you're gonna ignore reality? Hey, happy anniversary. Just ignore the elephant in the room.

[B]

But Jonna mentioned the insurance company and typically an insurance company under these circumstances would only reinsure. Or any insurance company who would come in to insure it would only do that if now new protocols were put into place. And I mean even structural protocols. Right. New buildings, new water safety systems, new alarm systems, new exit systems. You know, a whole. Not one. Apparently here there was like a one sheet. If there's a flood, this is what you do. It would be a three ring binder. There'd have to be training. Any legitimate insurance company would absolutely insist on all of those things. They would do cycles.

[D]

Unless they're self insured.

[B]

They would.

[D]

Maybe they're self insured.

[B]

I. You. It's in the realm of possibilities. But there'd have to be a lot of insurance here. It's. Look, this is another absolute tragedy. A lot of this stuff is on video. I, I would never want to see any of it. But you know, it's. You know, lawyers, we get blamed for a lot of stuff. Right. And a lot of it is absolutely deserved. But lawsuits like this, what changes safety standards to make sure that the history doesn't repeat itself in this most negative way.

[A]

Yeah. You know, the lawsuit that was filed by the family of nine year old Ellen Getten said that even as families were learning to live with an empty bed, that the camp was promoting its reopening, soliciting donations and preparing to return to business as usual. And the filing here said that it is not only unthinkable, it is offensive to the memories of the deceased and the families and loved ones they left behind. So aside from being a lawyer, and we all agree that any lawsuit has a really strong chance here and it will result in a large settlement. What about from a moralistic, ethical point of view? I mean, isn't it, is it, is it right or wrong to even reopen? I do think that they should not reopen. I think it's. It is not doing a service to the memory of those laws. What do you guys think?

[D]

They, they should have closed their doors. There's no. They should have apologized profusely.

[B]

Yeah.

[D]

They should turn that campground into some sort of memorial and, and they should move on. It's disgusting. It's worse than, than a plane crash, you guys.

[B]

Right?

[D]

Plane crashes. If everything's. They can happen. This was totally foreseeable, preventable. And they just completely failed these families and these children. And when you think about what the children went through in their last moments, like, I can't, I can't really even talk about it because I feel it and I can't.

[B]

It's in the, it's. Look, it's in the lawsuit. And you know, if you reading it, it's. Yeah, it's devastating. You know, the flip side of the coin is they wouldn't be reopening if there wasn't. You know, it's a supply and demand. So they obviously have some indication that people want to go back to that camp. It's been there a hundred years. So there's some history there. I'm sure there's some lineage there. There's some generational things that, oh, my grandmother went to this camp, that I went to this camp, my kids went to this camp. Who knows how many people they employ at that camp. And if the camp goes belly up, those people are now unemployed. There's, you know, there's always two sides to, to a story. Just by raising it and making it a memorial. I don't really know who that helps. I mean, of the lawsuit and insurance company giving those families money to start foundations in the honor. Honor of their children and helping children with disabilities. That's fantastic. Just taking the camp and wiping it off the face of the earth. I'm not exactly sure what that accomplishes.

[A]

Well, maybe renaming it When Value Jet Crash in the Everglades. They came back as a tr. Remember that? And that was their attempt. It didn't survive, but once you get that reputation of doing things the wrong way and cutting corners and being a hazard, I'm surprised anyone wants to return.

[B]

I mean, but there was. David, There was an act of God aspect to this. I mean, I forget what the numbers are, but it rains like 30 days of rain happened in like 14 minutes or hours or something. I mean, it was. Look, I was in Boca Raton a month ago for a wedding. The wedding was Saturday night. Sunday at 3 o' clock, it started raining. And by 9pm where we had the wedding, literally it floated away. The, the couches floated away. It's a Boca Raton result. It's a gorgeous thing. Within five hours, it was about $50 million worth of damage done. They had no idea it was coming. They had no idea it was happening. And as we know as lawyers, you learn in like first year law school and courts, there's the whole act of God aspect of things that Most insurance companies, by the way, don't cover. That's like an extra rider you have to get, you know, if something happens by an act of God. So it's just not as cut and dry as we're trying to make it seem here on MK True Crime.

[D]

Wait, can I ask you guys a question? Do you think this will come up on behalf of the, of the, of the camp? Do these parents sign any sort of waiver when little, when their little children go to this camp that they're going to, I don't know, wave an opportunity to sue if something were to come up, I think that would be a little untrue.

[A]

They might have a force majeure clause in there, you know, but I can't imagine that, that they're going to be protected by some fine print and some boilerplate contract here. And by the way, to Arthur's point about this is an act of God, but there is a history of flooding there, apparently in 1932-1978-1984-1987, all major floods, but not since 1987. So perhaps they let their guard down there, the people who operate the camp. But it is tragic and we'll go on to another crazy, tragic case. One more thing, Arthur. I saw, I saw images of that Boca Raton hotel getting flooded. It was on social media. It was pretty shocking. It's a very upscale hotel.

[B]

Oh, it was crazy, David. I mean it was, we had, we had. My wife and I were sitting in the exact couches waiting for our Uber to take us to the airport. And like 30 hours later, I'm on the same social media site and I'm, I could see the couch and it's floating, it's floating through the lobby, the main lobby. And, and the cars were not mine, but it was all Bentleys and Lamborghinis and Ferraris and they all got flooded. It was an absolute devastation in, in hours. It was. That is an act of God.

[D]

Well, Dave, doesn't it rain in Florida at 3 o' clock every day? I mean, I haven't been there in a while, but it pretty much three o' clock every day. The sky has opened up for why.

[B]

Are you still banned? Is like some, like, why aren't you in Florida? Like why has it been a while?

[D]

Right from that spring break.

[B]

Yeah. Years ago, from the 80s, from the Reagan administration.

[A]

Yeah. I want to. Arthur, when it flooded, that's a fancy five star hotel there. Did they still charge you for the valet? It's like 50 bucks to valet your car.

[B]

There was, although if you want to go off topic for a second, I just got back from Disney World. Bottle of Dasani water, like, regular water was like $6.82.

[A]

This is the affordability crisis.

[B]

Yeah, this is the affordability crisis. But yes, the Boca. It was a beautiful wedding, and God blessed this young girl who I know her whole life. If it was 24 hours later, the wedding would have definitely been canceled. I mean, the whole place was flooded out.

[A]

Yeah, well, next time you're down in Palm beach county, give me a call.

[B]

Don't arrest me, all right?

[A]

I am the Florida lawman, after all. That is my hood.

[B]

I know. That's what I mean. Don't arrest.

[A]

Yeah, okay. My previous life. Let's talk about the fetish death case. This is ugly. It is the Florida case, of course. A man is facing serious charges after police say that he kidnapped a woman from the uk he murdered her and buried her body in the woods. Dwayne Hall, 53 years old. Oh, that's a brutal mug shot.

[B]

That's like scary, man. That is scary.

[A]

Yeah. I wouldn't take his retainer fee. He's charged with. He's only 50.

[B]

If it's green, it would too. Is if the check. Yeah, I know he's getting into this private practice thing, but you'll get that.

[A]

Yeah, well, I want.

[D]

Money's not ugly, Dave, no matter what.

[A]

Well, I mean, I. I want to put the face of 53. This is hard living. If you want to put that up again. Dwayne Hall, 53, is charged with first degree murder and kidnapping of the death of Sonia Exelby, who is first reported missing from her home in Portsmouth, England on October 13th. And here's what happened. Investigators of the Florida Department of Law Enforcement say that hall and Exelby met online via fetish website, had communicated for approximately two years before she bought a plane ticket and came to the United States. This is one of those fetish and you have role play and it can get violent. But here, apparently she started to realize that this guy was not all there and put her at risk. She was talking to a friend about it, and then the next thing you know, he. He's killing, allegedly murdering her. And then he's trying to mail the knife, the murder weapon to a friend of his, and he alerts his wife to look for the package. I guess that's about to go out. That's when they catch him. And so they got the murder weapon. They got incriminating messages back and forth. They got her comments. I don't know about you're getting this guy out of this. First off, John, before Arthur gives us a defense of this guy, what's your take of this crazy case?

[D]

Well, didn't this case also include a defense based on the fact that she wanted him to do all this crazy stuff?

[A]

That's what he's going to say. Because this is a fetish website, you know, but it doesn't mean you want to die. And she made comments saying he's taking it too far.

[D]

Yeah. And it wouldn't be a defense anyway because you cannot contract to have somebody kill you. You cannot contract to have somebody rape you. You can't contract to do that. So his defense might change. I don't know if he's lawyered up, his defense might change, but it's really a crappy defense. I don't think. I don't think it's going to fly.

[B]

Yeah. This is what you call one of these cases when you go in and you talk about a plea bargain and say, how about, you know, we figure out a way for my client, not the giant die angelic 53, 53, 63, 73. How about he gets out at 78 years old. Give him a flat 25. Not a 25 to life, a flat 25. So probably have to do 22 years. And, you know, I'd like to think I'm going to be healthy at 90, but, you know, base reality. So he gets out at 78, maybe has a couple of years. Maybe also what people have to take into consideration when you're incarcerated, you're not exactly in the healthiest situation. You're not taking your supplements. Right. You're not getting your sunlight. You're not going for your walks and.

[D]

All of that stuff, drinking your pruno.

[B]

So your, your. Your life expectancy is not what. What it would be on the outside, but this is a. Another tragic case. There was something in there about vanilla sex that I didn't know what it was. John, do you know what that is? What. What that means? If someone talks about vanillas, he said they met up and they had vanilla sex. Is it different between chocolate, strawberry. I'm a pistachio guy, John. Can you tell me. Oh, you pistachio.

[A]

You know what this is?

[D]

You're a pistachio kind of sex guy.

[B]

Ice cream kind of guy is a Sicilian. But, you know, I don't know what vanilla sex is. That means it's bamoni, right? David, you stay out of this right now.

[D]

I don't want to get you. No, David, please don't. Say no. But here's the other problem that flies in the face of his whole defense. If he's trying to say she was a vanilla sex kind of girl, but yet she wanted to be raped and murdered because that was the fetish site that they were on. Come on.

[B]

This.

[D]

This guy's a whack job. And. And he's going to try to sell her and say that she was a whack job and she was suicidal and she liked all this. But he is a whack job.

[A]

Yeah. And this guy is not a true Floridian. This guy is just. Is bizarre. And. And I know Arthur's like, well, let's give him, what, 20 years, 25 years? You already have a release date for this guy. How about he gets released on the 31st of February because this guy's a danger to the community.

[B]

I told you. That's what I'm going to try to get as his lawyer. I'm. See, I'm. I'm the one who zealously advocates for the client. You're the guy who just throws them away. Lock. You know, and throws. Locks them up and throws away the key. And Johnna is the pistachio lady.

[D]

Are there. Do you. I have to know this. When you have. You can tell. You can tell. When you don't. When you know you don't have a defense to any case, do you charge more or less for those clients? Right.

[B]

That's an acc. That's a great question. I don't have a. An obvious answer to.

[D]

Right, and that's your payback for the vanilla sex? We can move on. Oh, we can move on.

[B]

I'm thinking about it. I'm thinking about it.

[A]

Let's get.

[B]

It actually depends more on. Honestly, it depends more on the. The ramifications. So when someone comes to me and they're a doctor and they're a lawyer, they have a license needs to be protected versus someone who's a businessman or woman. But, you know, they don't need to, you know, get approval from the government to get bonded. So the ramifications for their life are much more drastic. So if I get a DWI and the guy is a commercial driver's license, that's how he supports himself. Big problem. I'm going to charge him a little bit more because there's more pressure on me. There's more. I have to dig deeper and look harder as opposed to if it's a guy who's like, well, I lost my license. It stinks. But I got. I got enough money to take Ubers all over the place, then I'm probably not going to charge as much because I'm going to be able to get him a lower plea and he's going to live with it. Whereas the commercial driver's license, I got to fight like heck to make sure he gets something where he can keep.

[D]

That commercial driver's license because he has, he has fewer options than just you somebody without a commercial.

[B]

So that's the pistachio for you. All right, Dan, Spill bar.

[D]

Thank you.

[B]

For Tony, vanilla, chocolate, strawberry. David, he's like, what is going on right now?

[A]

Well, yeah, he's being held without bond and his next hearing is later in December. So next we're going to get to your questions and our closing arguments.

[G]

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[E]

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[A]

We'Ll get to our closing arguments and your mail. But first, Megyn Kelly's tour ends on the west coast this week with our friends Mark Garagos and Matt Murphy. That's Going to be a good one. And we all had a great time at the show. Arthur and Jonna, you were in White Plains, New York. I saw some video. It looked really hot.

[B]

Well, every time John is around, it's really hot. Right, John, isn't that true or no. Arthur, you're taking the fifth.

[D]

Were we the first. Were we the first MK True Crimers to appear alive?

[B]

Yes. And we were the ones who told everyone. We got five minutes. And we spoke to. That's a great picture. And we spoke to Mark Iglosh. And who was he going on with? Phil? No, he wasn't.

[A]

It was me.

[B]

Oh, he's real. Yeah, right. And he was like. He goes, we got 10 minutes. Well, this is before you want. He goes, well, we got 15 minutes and we're going to break down these cases. No, you're not. Like, no, you're not. You're going to say hello, you're going to promo the website, you're going to wave a little bit and you're done.

[A]

Yeah, you know, I had a great time. No one booed me. I was concerned.

[D]

But you never get booed.

[A]

No, they were a very. They were a very nice crowd and they loved Megyn Kelly and the guests she had with her. And it was just very lively. I mean, it was a lot of high energy. Jona, what was your take?

[D]

I absolutely loved it. We were on with Tucker, and I hadn't seen Tucker in a long time, but I used to see him when he was on Fox, and it was just a great show. I will say he's been a little controversial lately, and there was some reaction from the audience, but other than that, it was. Megan knows how to interview like nobody else.

[B]

It was really interesting for me. You know, John and I were there. We were, you know, after, as, you know, David, after our five minutes, you know, we then were spectators. So, you know, I watched a hunk of it. I had a big case on the next day, so I was studying and watching and watching and studying while we were there. But the next night they asked me to be on CNN on this Abby Phillips show, the panel, and what do you think? They started talking about the fight. It was. It may have been the lead topic, like Tucker Carlson was there last night talking to Megyn Kelly, and I'm like, oh, this will be at least a ground ball. I don't need to prep for. And so I got a little extra airtime by saying I was there last night. I didn't tell anyone before we were on air. They're like, Wait, you were there? I was like, oh, yeah, I announced everybody. And I'm.

[D]

They should have known.

[B]

But it did garner a lot of news, that interview. So that's what Megyn Kelly is. She's a newsmaker, so. And we're here to help make some news. I mean, we. We stay on the legal side of the news and let her deal with everything, all the more complicated stuff in the news.

[D]

We gotta do it again, though. Wouldn't. I would do it again and again and again.

[A]

Yeah, I appreciate the freedom.

[B]

I talk too much.

[A]

Well, yeah, it's true. But we do get. We do get the freedom of expressing ourselves here in our closing statements, which are coming. Our rants. In the last one I did, I actually took Tucker to task, and they aired it, and it was great. That's. That's who we are here. You know, we support free speech, so. Okay, well, we have a question from a listener at DINETTO 034 on the subject of tainting a jury pool. Is it disqualifying if it's found out that a juror has watched many, many hours of true crime podcasts on the particular trial? Can one admit that they know a lot about the case, but still feel as though they can make a decision based on the facts provided during the case? I wonder if it would make a difference on who the podcaster was. Just thinking out loud. Good question. Arthur, you start.

[B]

Well, I mean, we've. You know, I've been up against this specifically regarding the first Harvey Weinstein case. I won't bore you with all of the details, but basically, we were blatantly lied to. You know, it's one thing the way they ask the question. It's one thing if during jury selection, they would say, you know, oh, I know we've been preparing for this. There's been a lot of news about it. And yes, I've watched MK True Crime, and I've heard Johnny Spielberg talk all about it, and I heard Mark Garrigos talk all about it. So I know a lot about the case, but I can be fair and impartial. And then the lawyers make a decision to keep them on or not on. That goes in one column, and that's fine. The other column is when the case is over and that person said, oh, I didn't know anything about the case. And then you find out from another juror or someone else that they had watched every podcast, they had done everything, and they basically blatantly lied. Then you file a motion after the verdict, assuming it's a guilty verdict, and you try to see if the judge will conduct a hearing and have that juror called onto the stand and ask them why they lied. Well, first if they lied and then why they lied and then the judge has to make a decision. Usually the judges are very hell bent on maintaining the verdict and not doing a whole do over. But it is absolutely wrong to lie during jury selection about anything, but especially about your knowledge of that particular case.

[D]

But that wasn't really. The question is can you have knowledge of a case and still serve on a jury? And in this day and age, guys, every. If you don't live under a rock and you don't want a juror, potential juror that lives under a rock, you, most people are going to know about the big like Arthur's cases. All those high profile cases in my neck of the woods, they're not going to know so much, but they will be asked if they can be fair and impartial and that's the part that they can't lie about. And when you have a big celebrity client, right, like, like Arthur, he announced that on stage. Right. You went down your whole long list of celebrity clients. Jurors might want to stay on that jury not to get at the truth, but because they have an agenda, they want to write a book or they don't like that particular crime or whatever. They, that's what you really have to be careful of. But if you're not lying and you don't have an agenda but you know about a case, you can respectfully serve on a jury.

[A]

Well said. And now the closing comments. Our rants are the most popular parts of our show and there is no one who gets more acclaim for her rants than you, Jonna. So I'm going to start with you. I know it's tough, Arthur, that we have to follow Jona, who's legendary at this, but the floor is yours.

[D]

He hates my rants.

[B]

I don't mind. Just gonna go get a drink and.

[D]

Sit back and enjoy it for my 9 minute, 1 minute rant. Are you ready?

[A]

Ready.

[D]

With the holidays almost here, many of us will be hopping in our cars to grandmother's house. We go. Which means no time like the present for my annual PSA on how not to drive like an idiot. This year I won't state the obvious like don't drink and drive, do drugs and drive or text and drive because you know this already. Instead, I will give you a page from my very own handbook entitled how not to Drive like a Situationally Unaware Jerk for which I Seem to pen a new chapter each time I'm behind the wheel. Chapter one. The right hand turn. Sounds simple enough, but apparently not. If you are driving a regular passenger vehicle on a public roadway and you need to make a right hand turn, I promise it will never ever be necessary to commence your right hand turn by first veering left. You're in a Subaru, lady, not a semi. When you want to go over there, don't start by going in the exact opposite direction. Come to think of it, this not only applies to the rules of the road, but also to the rules of life. Keep your eye on the prize. Chapter two. The dreaded Traffic Circle. Let me make this easy. A traffic circle is like a normal intersection that's shaped a little differently, that's all. You cannot thumb and Louise your way onto a traffic circle without giving a single shit about the 2 ton killing machines already in it. Have you ever seen a stop sign inside a traffic circle? While I do break for a lot of things, your stupidity is not one of them. Wait your damn turn, Mario. And finally, chapter three. Not exactly a vehicle in traffic law, but related specifically the school bus. I'm not talking about stopping in all directions to let little kiddos get on and off the bus. I'm all for not mowing down third graders under any circumstances. Let's be clear, however, I am strongly against the extended mama Bear to bus driver pep talk or gossip sesh or book club update or whatever the hell you do that prevents the bus from moving forward long after little Susie Cream Cheese is safely in her seat. Can we confine the conversation with the hippie driving said bus to a quick hi, buyer. Hey, is that a new tattoo and just leave it at that, or do we need a whole new enforcement system similar to the pitch clock in baseball where you have a total of, say, three seconds until the door automatically slams in your face and the surrounding motorists get to jump out of their idling cars and kick sand at your sweatpants? Works for me. I hope you've enjoyed these sample chapters from my very own how not to Drive Like a Situationally Unaware Jerk Handbook. Happy motoring. And more importantly, Happy Thanksgiving.

[A]

That was a tour de force, John. Well done.

[D]

Thank you, lawman.

[B]

Sir.

[A]

Oh, great art. That's a tough act to follow. The floor is yours, my friend.

[B]

Can't make a right on red where I live. Number one. And what's. What is your infatuation with Subarus?

[A]

That's true.

[D]

My mother drives a Subaru.

[B]

All right, whatever.

[A]

The bike on top of the hood.

[B]

So I don't know how many appearances I've made on, on MK True Crime, but it's, you know, we're getting up there and I've never really had a rant that I felt like genuine about it, saying it was always something I come up with. But this one is a little personal because it's about a case that I'm peripherally involved in. You know, my office represented Ghislaine Maxwell in her appeal from her trial. And so I've met with her, I've spoken with her. I did not represent her when she was debriefed by the Department of Justice. But what's going on right now with Jeffrey Epstein, anybody who thinks it is not about politics and it's about justice for the women is they got to get their head examined. That's just not how our system works. The way our system works is there's a criminal case and there's a civil case. And here in the criminal case, they went after Jeffrey Epstein. He's no longer with us in that original indictment. Again, Jeffrey Epstein they'll name Galaine Maxwell is nowhere to be found. That's not typical if you're really so involved, but so be it. He's dead. They've spent millions of dollars to go after him, so now they have to find someone else to go after. They don't go after another man. They go after a woman. Ghisain Maxwell. She went to trial. I didn't try the case, but we've read the transcripts. We know how she was treated. Every American should be embarrassed by the torturous way she was treated. Sleep deprivation, which is a CIA torture tactic. Food deprivation, which is also a CIA torture tactic. They did that to this woman while she was on trial. And despite the fact that her lawyers put it on the record and begged the judge to give her a granola bar that they bought. Offices of the court. Can we just give court. Can we just give her some food? Because she's so hungry and so tired, he can't help in her own defense, and that's a constitutional right. And the judge said, I'll leave it up to the marshals. And the marshal said, no, we can't give her any unauthorized food. The reason why she wasn't eating is by the time she got back to prison, dinner was over. And by the time they woke her up to bring him to court, they hadn't served breakfast yet. So this woman really suffered. She was found guilty, she sent to jail for 20 years. She's been in for six I believe the people who said they were abused by Jeffrey Epstein, I believe there's 150 of them, they have divided up at this point $110 million. There's more money there. But whoever's in charge of this fund has given them what they, what they think they've deserved, by the way, without being cross examined, without their stories being challenged. They basically had to fill out some forms about what happened and they got a big check. So from a criminal point of view, justice has been done to a degree. From a civil point of view, justice has been done. To say this whole Jeffrey Epstein thing is not about politics is insane in the membrane, insane in the brain. Just look at the timing of it. Look at the timing of it. The government shutdown, how did Trump is doing well in a lot of aspects. How do we shut Trump down? How do we create chaos? Jeffrey Epstein. I wish there were so many problems in the United States of America. A million kids in this country go to sleep with food insecurity. If we spent the billions of dollars between the media and Congress and investigators that we've spent on Jeffrey Epstein, on feeding children and making sure the kids. And that's just one aspect of American life that needs to be dealt with. If we put that effort there, maybe we'd solve some of these problems. And last thing I know, it became a big topic. Guess what, folks? Look up. Open a law book, go to Google, go to ChatGPT. Jeffrey Epstein is not a pedophile. He's not. Sorry he abused young. Well, he abused minors. But the definition of a pedophile is someone who's having sex or desires to have sex with a prepubescent person. Someone who's 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, not someone who has been fully developed and is now a woman. So we could get caught up in the words. We could get caught up in justice for these women, these Congress people, they're not so concerned about just plenty of causes out there that we need justice for. This is all about politics and Americans should be ashamed the way this whole thing has been handled. Thank you.

[A]

Wow. One of the great things about this channel is that we have a diversion of viewpoints. And since they're rants, we don't get to debate it. But we should debate these topics, especially the Epstein case more, I think, on future episodes. But thank you, Arthur. And thank you, Jonna. I'm going to finish by giving my rant, and that is that even though I am now a defense Lawyer, it was 12 years of state attorney and Let me tell you, being a prosecutor is not as easy as it looks. Our system is based on Blackstone's ratio, named after the 18th century English jurist Sir William Blackstone, who wrote, it is better that 10 guilty persons escape than that one innocent suffer. Indeed, our US Constitution says nothing about victims of crime, but sure says a lot about suspects and defendants. Fourth Amendment. The Fifth Amendment. The Sixth Amendment. The Eighth Amendment. Yes, a grand jury can indict a ham sandwich, but getting a conviction is another matter. Lindsey Halligan appointed acting U.S. attorney for the Eastern District of Virginia to go after Trump's enemies, James Comey. And Letitia James. Well, she learned fast that it's not so easy being a brand new prosecutor. But in her defense, the White House gave her a clunker from the used car lot and asked her to create a Rolls out of it. But the evidence is so weak, so many mistakes. She didn't show the grand jurors the revised indictment like you're supposed to. When the revised document was shown to the jurors, only two of the grand jurors were left, and that could tank the whole case. She also allegedly told the grand jury that Comey didn't have the Fifth Amendment right not to testify. That's a no no. She also allegedly told jurors that if they weren't sold on Comey's guilt, that the prosecutors have a lot more evidence at trial. Perhaps better evidence. Can't say that either. Now, combined with real evidence of a vindictive prosecution and an improper appointment, where her appointment was piggybacking on a prior acting U.S. attorney that had overstayed his welcome. Well, this case, in my mind, will be dismissed before Thanksgiving. It may look easy to play prosecutor, but if you don't have the law or the facts on your side, that Lemon is headed for the junkyard of history. And that's my rant.

[D]

Dave, that was great. That was great. Can I just say one thing real quick? We made a segment on here called, like, Chomping at the Bit, because I want to challenge you and. And fight with you so bad right now. I know your rent. I'll just put something. I'll put something bad in the comments.

[A]

Please do. Well, I think that's the beauty of the rants is that Arthur can. Can talk passion about Ghislaine Maxwell, and I could talk passionate about the Code Me case. And. And you can't respond.

[D]

No, no, it's killing me. It's killing me.

[A]

But, John, that's the beauty of the show. We may disagree on some things, but we have spirited debate and this is one of the places we can talk. We need more of that. So I want to say thank you to my fellow contributors John Espilbor and Arthur Idalla. Thank you for joining us at 8Mk true crime.

[B]

My new nickname for Johnna is Pistachio.

[A]

We'll leave it at that. Send us your story, suggestions, questions and comments and MK true crime@devil may caremedia.com com have a great weekend.