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Donna Adelson’s Children Testify Against Her, Plus Disturbing Kohberger Crime Scene Bodycam Footage
00:55:44
MK True Crime contributors Ashleigh Merchant, Arthur Aidala, and Dave Aronberg join the show to discuss the beginning of the Donna Adelson trial, why opening statements matter, the defense taking jabs at Wendi Adelson, Donna’s estranged son Robert taking the stand for the first time, the arrest of Rebecca and Jake Haro for the murder of baby Emmanuel Haro, newly released bodycam footage of the day police found Bryan Kohberger’s victims, and more. Ashleigh Merchant: https://www.criminaldefenseattorneysmarietta.com Arthur Aidala: https://aidalalaw.com Dave Aronberg: https://davearonberglaw.com Lean: Visit https://brickhousenutrition.com use code LABORDAY25 for 25% off! BAU: Go to https://BAUmovie.com to watch the Artist of war trailer and learn more. Riverbend Ranch: Visit https://riverbendranch.com/ | Use promo code MEGYN for $20 off your first order. Follow MK True Crime on all social platforms: YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/@MKTrueCrime X - https://x....
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Transcript154 lines
- [00:01]
Arthur Adala
If you could hear love, what would it sound like?
- [00:11]
Ashleigh Merchant
Son, can we talk about your drinking?
- [00:16]
Dave Aronberg
Yeah, Dad, I think we should.
- [00:19]
Arthur Adala
Helping those closest to you think about their excessive drinking. Maybe that's what love sounds like. More@rethinkthedrink.com an OHA initiative.
- [00:35]
Ashleigh Merchant
Welcome to MK True Crime. I'm Ashleigh Merchant, your host today. I'm a criminal defense attorney out of Atlanta, Georgia. Here's what we have on today's docket. The Donna Adelson trial is fully underway as of this taping. We've heard a lot from Wendy Adelson, estranged brother Robert Adelson and more. We'll bring you the highlights. Rebecca and Jake Harrow, parents of missing baby Emmanuel Harrow, were just arrested for murder. Emanuel remains missing. And new body cam footage from the Coburger crime scene has been released. And more. I'm joined by fellow MK True Crime contributors Arthur Adala, New York City trial attorney, and Dave Aronberg, former state attorney for Palm Beach County, Florida, and managing partner at Dave Aronberg Law. Good to see you both. Hello. Hello. We begin with Donna Adelson. The trial kicked off Friday with opening statements from the prosecution and defense teams. Just in case you missed it, here are some highlights to get you up to speed and then we'll come back with more on the murder for hire mother in law trial. Watch and listen. Tragically, on July 18th of 2014, Dan Markell was shot in the head in broad daylight like something out of a horror movie. When he pulled into his driveway, the killers pulled in right behind him. The defendant acted in furtherance of this murder plot that went beyond just thinking about it or just talking about it. And these acts make her guilty as a principal to first degree murder just as if she was the one pulling the trigger in the garage herself. You heard an awful lot about what other people did in this case, but not a single piece of evidence was discussed that shows that Donna Adelson planned this, hired anybody to do this or intended that this happen. These kids are not deprived of their father. Their father was brutally taken from them. They lost the opportunity because someone took it from them. You've heard a lot about how she hated him. She said some ugly things during the divorce, foul things. Actually end of the case because there's not going to be evidence that she did this. Keep an open mind. Listen to all of it. We're going to ask you to find her not guilty of every single count. Listen to this. Brick House Nutrition's Labor Day sale just went live for a few days only. You can save 25% on everything with code Labor Day 25 start fall off strong, reboot your health and save big. And this massive sale includes their best selling weight loss formula Lean. Brickhouse Nutrition says Dr. Formulated Lean helps turn excess fat into energy, reduces appetite and curbs cravings. Lean could help you reach your weight loss goals without needles or prescriptions. Plus you can also find field of greens there, a super fruit and veggie drink that promises your doctor will notice your improved health or they'll give you your money back. Plus favorites like Radiance, their super collagen booster and even the new Brickhouse whey protein. It's all on sale 25% off, but only for a few days. Kickoff fall Feeling stronger and more confident than ever, head to brickhouse nutrition.com use code labor day25 for 25% off brickhouse nutrition.com code labor day25 all right, so now we're going to dig into the Adelen trial and just to sort of catch everyone up. This has been ongoing since last week. They picked a jury and we heard opening statements on Friday. You just heard a little bit from those opening statements, first from the state and then from the defense. And we've been hearing back to back witnesses Monday and Tuesday. So I just want to catch everyone up. Just in case you haven't been following that. Donna Adelson is the mother. She's accused of orchestrating the murder of her son in law, FSU law professor Danny Markell in Tallahassee, Florida. And that trial that you just saw is in Tallahassee, Florida. Donna is mother to Wendy Adelen. She was the one that was married to Danny Markell. They were going through a bitter divorce and Donna wanted the grandkids. She did not want to go to Tallahassee where Markle lived. She wanted them down in south Florida. The state has already lined up a lot of convictions in this case against Donna's son, against Wendy's brother, the friend who connected them, the hitmen who are serving time in prison for actually committing this crime. And the list is long. But now they're coming after the mom who apparently they think is the mastermind. I want to talk about these opening statements. What we thought about them we heard first from the state's attorney and then we heard from Donna Adelson's one of her defense attorneys, former judge Jackie Fullard. She revealed in my opinion, very little about the defense's theory other than the state can't prove this in her mind. What do you all think? Think, Dave, let's start with you. You're from Florida. What do you think about this as a. As a opening for the defense?
- [05:30]
Dave Aronberg
Well, it's good to be with you, Ashley. This is the A team. You've got Ashley, Arthur, Idalla and Ehrenberg. So we are the A team. AAA quadruple. A quadruple times two. This case is personal for me because I knew the victim, Danny Markel. He was a great guy. He was a brilliant law professor, Harvard law graduate. Someone who could have made a lot of money in the private sector but wanted to teach. And he loved being in Tallahassee. And he loved his two sons. And it was that love for his sons that led to his demise because his in laws concocted a plot to kill him. And it's proven because the son Charlie has been found guilty already. Now it's Donna's day of reckoning. And as far as the opening arguments, I thought that the prosecution set out their case. And yes, it was very thick on motive and thin on evidence, but that evidence is to come. And Jackie Fulford, the defense lawyer, didn't really have a theory of the case other than the prosecution has approved the case beyond a reasonable doubt and there's not enough evidence to do so. I suspect that Georgia Kaplan will make the defense lawyer eat her words because there is evidence. Yes, it's circumstantial, but as you and Arthur know, circumstantial evidence can be just as powerful as direct evidence, and there's plenty of it. So, yes, I think it's going well for the prosecution. I'm looking forward to justice for Dan.
- [06:56]
Ashleigh Merchant
You know, it's crazy that you say that, because I literally wrote down my notes that they didn't have a theory of defense, and all they said really was no evidence. So great minds think alike. What about you, Arthur? What'd you think about the defense? Defense opening, for example?
- [07:08]
Arthur Adala
Well, first I want to express my condolences to Dave. I mean, I didn't realize it was that personal. I just thought maybe you had something to do with the case. And obviously this is a tragedy any way you look at it. So I'm sorry for your loss. It's hard, horrible under any view of the evidence. So I just tried a pretty heavy case. And years ago, when I was in the Brooklyn District Attorney's office, I believe it was the New York Times that came out with a study that said 80% of witness of jurors, 80% of jurors polled after a verdict said that after the opening statements, the verdict that they had in their mind, even though they're keeping an open mind. The verdict they had in their mind after the opening statements turned out to be the verdict that they rendered at the end of the case. So I was taught back in the day, in the crime ridden days of Brooklyn, New York, it's a lot better now to be as passionate and as forceful in your opening statement as you are in any other part of the trial. Many people talk about, oh, the summation. The summation, summation is more or less, in my opinion, like a show. There are certain cases where it connects the dots, but a lot of times it's a ego filling event. The opening statement is where you set the stage and the case. I just tried after the verdict I had the opportunity to speak with the jurors in a very calm setting even days after the verdict. And I was pleasantly surprised that the theory I've been functioning under for all these years is accurate. They were talking about things I said in my opening statement almost two months later in the jury deliberation. So I think the defense here lost a tremendous opportunity to really attack in their opening statement and plant seeds in the jurors heads about what the reasonable doubt is going to be. You also have to have that passion that you believe what you're saying and you believe in the innocence or the lack of evidence. And you know, we saw a little bit of that. The prosecutor typically gives a little bit more of a dry presentation because they usually have the facts on their side. So they don't have to be as reeling them in with their performance because they usually have pretty salacious facts. Whereas the defense attorney has to make those jurors believe that they believe and that should be true in their defense. And then you have to articulate to those reasonable people using their common sense, why the government is going to fail to prove their case beyond a reasonable doubt. And I don't think that happened here.
- [09:52]
Ashleigh Merchant
Yeah, I couldn't agree more. I mean I've read those studies as well. I think you lose the jury quickly after opening statements and they've made up their mind. It's crazy. A lot of studies say they've made up their mind after voir, which is difficult. The more we're limited in what we can talk about with jury selection, but definitely think with voidier real quick old.
- [10:10]
Arthur Adala
School guys like I'm talking about in like the 60s and 70s, a lot of defense attorneys would waive their opening statement. You know, you don't have to give an opening statement and they would stand up and their Whole stick would be, well, your honor, since I don't have anything to prove and I'm not obligated to prove anything or give an opening statement, we're waiving our opening statement. And let's see what the evidence presents. And then they sit back down.
- [10:33]
Ashleigh Merchant
I've seen a lot of lawyers here in Georgia who waive it until the defense gets to go, and I'm not a fan of that. I think that we need to speak as early and as often as we can. But a lot of folks will wait until after the state has presented their case and then present it. So there's a lot of different options. I wanted to talk a little bit about the different players in this case because, you know, I always like to kind of set the stage and see. See who's involved in the case, you know, the prosecution. Georgia Kaplan is. Everyone's a big fan. Dave probably has some information about her, but she, you know, she went to FSU law school, which is where Danny Markell was a teacher. But I think it's interesting that the defense attorney, Josh, also went. So you've got two FSU grads and then the other two lawyers, they went to other schools in. In Florida. You know, I'm a Florida grad, so I think that that's the only school in Florida. But I thought it was interesting that, that, you know, Danny Markel was beloved at Florida State, and you've got a prosecution and a defense lawyer from fsu. So. You know what? I did want to ask you, Dave, though. Jackie Fuller, the one who did. Or Fulford. I'm sorry, the one who did the opening statement for the defense. So she's a former judge. She was removed from office. What happened there?
- [11:41]
Dave Aronberg
Well, there was a controversy and she resigned from office. And she is now the lawyer here. She wasn't the first choice for Donna Adelson. That was Dan Rashbom, who was Charlie's lawyer. You can just see the conflict, especially because Donna's defense now is pointing the finger at Charlie and Wendy. Everyone in the family but her and her husband, I guess.
- [12:05]
Ashleigh Merchant
Yeah.
- [12:06]
Dave Aronberg
So the judge at the last minute, the eleventh hour, noted that Charlie had not waived the conflict and so forced Donna to get rid of Rashbomb and to find her own new lawyer. And Jackie Fulford was available along with her co counsel. And, you know, they're not doing a bad job. It's just they don't seem to have a coherent theory of the case. And it's important that everything you do is geared around that theory at some Points. She's kind to Wendy on the stand and it looks like they're in cahoots. And then she goes after Wendy. It's just like snaps at the very end and pretty much says, you know, everyone in the family should be responsible for the crime, including you. I mean, that kind of stuff. Like, whoa. So, you know, it's hard to tell where they're going all this. If they think that the jury is going to believe somehow that everyone else in the family was involved in this, except for the controlling, domineering mother who pulled all the strings. That is a bridge that no one is crossing.
- [13:07]
Ashleigh Merchant
Right, right. Well, and she does seem domineering. We've had a couple emotional outbursts. I want to talk about that. She's been cautioned several times by the judge. I think we have one at SOT2 where she was emotional over the injuries that Mr. Markell had. How did you take this photograph for the darkened area on his forearm? Why was that of significance? That is consistent with stippling. What is stippling? Stippling is being close contact to a firearm that was discharged. And it's going to be the unburnt gunpowder and gases that leave the barrel of a gun at a high velocity and it will tattoo or stain the skin, states Exhibit 24. Please, is this another effort to capture that stippling that you observed? Yes. No further questions. All right, so those that aren't watching, you can definitely see that Donna Adelson is extremely distraught over that testimony. And you know, I'm curious because when I see that, I think, you know, she's mad and upset because she saw the jurors faces when they're hearing about this and they're hearing about the damage that she put in play. What do you all think? Arthur, what do you think?
- [14:19]
Arthur Adala
I mean, look, it could be a couple things. First of all, for people who aren't watching the, the injury that was. I thought they were going to show something a little bit more graphic like the gunshot wound. The injury is basically for folks who can't see. It's like a black blue. It just looks like a black and blue on his arm. I, I know it's, it's a burn, but that's not what it would appear to be in that courtroom. Look, she can be crying because number one, she's supposed to be crying. Right, right. It. It is her son in law. It is the mother, the father of, of her grandchildren. This is all about. So even though they're divorced and, and there's a lot of animosity so, you know, she's supposed to be upset to play that part. And who knows, maybe the reality of if she really is guilty, the reality of her actions are setting in. You know, reading the transcript about the judge admonishing her, I thought you are. Her reactions were going to be a little more dramatic than that. I mean, again, for those who aren't watching, she's just sitting there crying. I mean, she's not screaming or yelling or saying, oh, my God or. Or anything like that. When I've had defendants done a lot, do a lot, show a lot more a negative emotion than her doing that right there. I mean, you know, it's all part of the role that if you're faking it, you know, she's supposed to play.
- [15:35]
Ashleigh Merchant
I know. I mean, that's ridiculous to draw that out in front of the. You know, in front of the jury. The judge keeps admonishing her for doing that. I want to listen.
- [15:43]
Dave Aronberg
Actually, it was not in front of the jury when the judge admonished her. Was outside the presence of the jury. He threatened to do it next time in front of the jury.
- [15:51]
Arthur Adala
Mrs. Adelson, when the testimony is occurring or the evidence, I know you may have a natural reaction, but as best possible, you need to control your reactions concerning any head movements, any expressions of disagreement, or any emotional outburst. The jury must decide this matter on the merits, on the evidence.
- [16:12]
Ashleigh Merchant
Do you understand this?
- [16:14]
Arthur Adala
Very well. I do not wish to do this in front of the jurors at all, but it's very important that you are.
- [16:20]
Dave Aronberg
Able to control your emotions.
- [16:21]
Arthur Adala
Do you understand what I'm saying?
- [16:25]
Dave Aronberg
And these are crocodile tears. She despised Danny. And it was so clear when Rob testified. And Rob recounted the conversation after Danny was murdered with his mom. And his mom said, yeah, you know, I don't care. I mean, she didn't care. And. And. And you could see her peeking over to the jury while she's shedding her crocodile tears to make sure they're paying attention. It's really not fair. Because if you want to cry on the stand and show and express yourself to the jury, take the stand. But you can't have it both ways. You can't do it from your seat at the table. Go on the stand and see that C.C.
- [16:59]
Arthur Adala
Okay, hold on there, Mr. Prosecutor. Those of us who are defense attorneys, you know, you're not throwing your client on the stand so quickly and often. You want to show as much humanity of your defendant as possible without them taking the stand. So you're putting your arm on their arm. You're making sometimes a lighthearted time, you're making a joke and showing that they could laugh. And other times you show that they could cry. So, you know, I'm not faulting anyone for. She didn't do anything so outrageous. I mean, she. Again, she was just sitting there sobbing. And I don't even know why the judge admonished her. I don't think it was anything.
- [17:39]
Ashleigh Merchant
I know it wasn't disruptive. It didn't disrupt the court case.
- [17:41]
Arthur Adala
Right, Exactly.
- [17:42]
Dave Aronberg
Exactly. Well, it was the two of them. It was also Jackie Fulford who was calling him Danny. And she was nearly in tears talking about how this awful murder took him away from. From his kids. You mean your client. What your client did and to call him Danny. The client despised him. They called him Gibbers, which is a pejorative nickname for him. So now to like change history and to solve a sudden. To make this. This woman in a cardigan with her gray hair into this sweet victim, this granny who could never do this because she loved her son in law. No, she hated him. And she worked with her son to have him killed. Allegedly.
- [18:20]
Ashleigh Merchant
Well, let's. Let's move to another witness. That seems very prosecuted, Dave.
- [18:25]
Dave Aronberg
I'm a very proud now. I bet. I guess I'm still have the prosecutor.
- [18:29]
Arthur Adala
You're a recovering prosecutor. How about that?
- [18:31]
Dave Aronberg
Fair enough.
- [18:33]
Ashleigh Merchant
I mean, sometimes you can't help what your client does, you know, Sometimes you just can't. But luckily she didn't really disrupt the proceedings. So let's talk about another witness, Louis Rivera. He took the stand and I think we have sought four where he is. The defense actually was asking him who wanted Danny killed. Then I said if you would put the number five next to the lady that wanted man killed. And did you do that?
- [18:57]
Dave Aronberg
Yes, I did.
- [18:58]
Ashleigh Merchant
And was that with Wendy Adelson? Yes, I did. Then I asked you if the two people on the top of the page who have their pictures there and the names, Donald, I mean Donna Adelson and Harvey Adelson. You see those on the top?
- [19:11]
Dave Aronberg
Yes, ma'. Am.
- [19:12]
Ashleigh Merchant
I asked you as far as you know, were they involved in any of this? And you said no, correct? Yes, ma'. Am. So I asked you to put X's next to the people who on that page were not involved in this. Yes, ma'. Am. And you did that. So did. Thank you. All right, tell me, does it not sound like they're blaming Wendy the defense? Dave?
- [19:32]
Dave Aronberg
Oh, yeah. I actually thought that was a score for the defense because up to that moment, Rivera had Testified in previous trials that it was the lady who wanted this done. The lady. And we all assumed it was Donna. And now here we are at Donna's trial, and he clarifies for the first time, there was Wendy. And that was shocking. I gotta tell you. I've been following this case closely. That was shocking. And I think it does put pressure on the state to go after Wendy next. And I do think that her day is coming. But as far as that was a win for Donna, because now you have the killer who is cooperating, the. The accomplice who is saying that this was ordered by Wendy and allows Donna to point the finger at the daughter. And it is interesting because I thought there was no way that Donna would turn on Wendy. After all, Donna only has a few years left. And she did this for Wendy and allegedly and her children because Donna loves the grandkids, doesn't want to leave the grandkids without a mother. But Wendy refused to agree to Donna's subpoena Before trial. Wendy fought Donna subpoena so that Wendy would not testify for her mother. And I think this is a bit of payback.
- [20:46]
Ashleigh Merchant
Oh, it's. It's intense. I mean, and. And we'll talk about it in a minute. Her reaction. But the last time she testified, the last time that she spoke with her mother was November 2023. So just imagine walking in that courtroom and, you know, seeing a daughter testifying against her mother, essentially. But let's. Before we talk about that, let's see. SOT 5. I want to get into wend actually testifying because that is by far the best witness.
- [21:09]
Dave Aronberg
Once again, Ms. Adelson, I'm going. Mrs. Adelson, I'm going to reiterate the.
- [21:13]
Arthur Adala
Instruction that I gave to you last Friday concerning any reactions that you may.
- [21:18]
Dave Aronberg
Have to either the testimony or the evidence in the case.
- [21:21]
Arthur Adala
I understand this may be a distressing thing for your child to be offering testimony and your trial.
- [21:28]
Dave Aronberg
However you are to control your expressions and your emotions.
- [21:31]
Arthur Adala
Do you understand those?
- [21:34]
Dave Aronberg
Everyone can take their break. If you need to step down until it's time to testify, you may do so as well.
- [21:44]
Ashleigh Merchant
All right, I know your opinion on this, Dave, but Arthur, when I saw this, all I thought about as a mother is I can't imagine. Obviously, I didn't have my son in law, you know, hitman, try to kill my son in law. But just think about the emotion. And I mean, we deal with these emotions in court every day. Just think about this. I mean, what did you. When you saw this? What did you feel?
- [22:03]
Arthur Adala
Well, you know, let's start with the underlying fact is that you got one son who's in prison for this for life. You got another son. I'm sure we're going to talk about who she hadn't spoken to in basically a decade, and now her daughter is going to try to put her in jail for the rest of her life. Yeah, I don't think she's going to be winning any mother of the year awards, but, you know, she's doing the same thing. Right. I mean, what we just spoke about moments ago is you have the defense attorney saying it wasn't the mom, it was the daughter who ordered the hit. Now, truth be told, it's really not what the mother is doing to the daughter probably is not going to hurt the daughter. In other words, if the jury comes back and in their minds, they're like, yeah, Wendy probably did it, I don't see the prosecution and Dave could step in and correct me if I'm wrong, say, okay, but we tried to go after the mom. That didn't work. Now let's go after the daughter. That's. That's usually not how it works. Whereas if Wendy is successful, she's going to send her mom to jail for the rest of her life. Dave, am I incorrect about that? Would you think if the jury felt, you know, that it was Wendy, do you think that they now they would charge Wendy, or doesn't she have some sort of immunity agreement?
- [23:18]
Dave Aronberg
She has the limited use and derivative use immunity. So what she said at the trial, as long as she didn't lie, will not be used against her. But the state has developed evidence against her separately, and they can use that against her. I do think they're going to charge Wendy next if and when Donna is convicted. If Donna walks, this case is over. They're not going because Wendy is a tougher one to get than Donna. Donna's easier, and Charlie was easier than Donna. So as they go one by one, it gets tougher. I do. I do actually agree with you guys. And I actually think that Donna's emotions there were real because she's seeing this daughter that she would die for turn against her, essentially. And this is what this whole thing has become, what a family. And I will disagree. One thing with Ashley is Ashley said the best witness of the day was Wendy. I think the best witness has been Rob, who is the black sheep of the family, who actually is the good guy of the family. He went a different direction than Wendy and Charlie, and it shows.
- [24:17]
Ashleigh Merchant
He was. Let's get to him in a minute. I have one more thing I want to talk about with Wendy. I want to have a SOT played. But when we get done with that, I want to know what you thought was the most important part of Wendy's testimony. If we could play SOT7. This is what I think is the most important part of her testimony. Was part of the plot to kill your ex for you to have plausible deniability or to know very little about it. I was not involved in any plot to kill Danny. Were you shielded from the plot?
- [24:48]
Dave Aronberg
Because.
- [24:50]
Arthur Adala
I don't know.
- [24:50]
Ashleigh Merchant
You couldn't be trusted to keep a secret. I was not involved in any plot to kill Danny. I feel like we could have played a game. A drinking game. How many times did she say that you could tell her lawyer had prepped her? That's your fallback statement. When in doubt, say that. She just kept saying it over and over, and I think that's powerful. What do you. What do you think? No, Arthur, you go ahead.
- [25:12]
Dave Aronberg
Arthur.
- [25:12]
Arthur Adala
I mean. I mean, of course you're going to prep. If you're her lawyer, of course you're going to keep prepping her to say that. Now, the counter could be like, well, isn't it interesting that the cable guy just happened to be at your house at the exact same time? So now you have a witness that shows you were home when. When this all went down. So that's what, that's going to be the state's argument or. I don't even know. Or the defense. I don't know who's trying to put Wendy in the mix here. I think both sides are at this point. But, yes, of course you're going to have her trained and pardon that term, but it really is. I mean, you take them in your office until, you know, 10 o' clock at night, 11 o' clock at night, and you prep them and you practice with them. And what are you going to say then? And what are you going to say then? I am not involved with any plot to kill them. Not in plavo. All work and no play makes dull boy. Whatever that line was.
- [26:05]
Dave Aronberg
Wow, A shining reference. Didn't expect that one. Well done, sir.
- [26:08]
Arthur Adala
Thank you.
- [26:09]
Dave Aronberg
I. I think the flaw in the defense's theory here is that they think that by tarring Wendy, it somehow won't reflect upon Donna. Like, if you convince a jury that Wendy is guilty, I don't see how the jury and say, okay, she did it on her own. There's no way her mother was involved in that. Her Mother controlled her life from the point of establishing her dating profile to writing her legal briefs. She was doing everything. She was pulling the strings. And if you believe Wendy's doing this on her own without her mom's involvement, then I got a bridge in the Everglades to sell you. So I don't think it works. And one thing to Arthur, Arthur said that how convenient that the cable guy was over is actually. Yes, it was a TV repairman. And TV is important because that was the word that the family use as code for the murder. That's right. And it is so interesting that of all people to come over the house. It was a TV that was smashed and the ex boyfriend said that looked like a person smashed it. So how convenient. And one more thing about TV. Are TV repairmen a thing? I know this happened like 11 years ago, right? When you have a break in your tv, don't just buy a new tv. Is that a thing you bring over the geeks?
- [27:17]
Ashleigh Merchant
That.
- [27:17]
Arthur Adala
That's a great point because yes, you are correct. You are correct. They do vacuum cleaner repair people anymore. Either way, we live in a disposable society. A very, very well founded point.
- [27:29]
Ashleigh Merchant
All right, before we run out of time on Don, I want to talk about Robert Adelen. You've already alluded to it, Dave. Robert is is definitely interesting. Next we're going to talk about his testimony. This is the first time he's ever testified. He moved out at 18. He kept in touch but bar estranged from his mom. The last time they spoke was in 2016. So when we come back from the break, we'll have Robert Adelen's testimony. But if you have any questions or comments for us, you can now email us. The email address is mk true crimevil may care media.com we would love to hear from you. Thanks. You know those movies that tell the stories of real life heroes with the courage to stand up in the face of indescribable evil and hatred to protect and save others. They're important, especially now when the world seems to need heroes more than ever. Artist at War is a film about how art and love can save lives, literally and spiritually. It's the remarkable true story of Joseph Bao, a gifted artist and master forger who risked his life to save others during the Holocaust. There he not only found the strength to survive, but also an unexpected love with Rebecca, a woman whose courage matched his own. Their secret wedding, held inside a concentration camp, was later immortalized in the film Schindler's List. Artist at War opens only in Theaters for a limited run beginning September 26th. Go to baumovie.comb a u movie.com to watch the trailer, read about Joseph's real life journey and find showtimes near you. Visit visit baobau movie.com to watch the trailer and learn more. And you can also sign your organization up for group screenings. Again, that's b a u movie dot com. All right, welcome back. Now, as promised, Robert Adelen testified. And I think it's really interesting because we've never heard from Robert before. So this was something new in this trial. He finally broke his silence and testified. You know, he moved out at 18, which I think is very telling. He kept in touch with his family, but not a lot. He was estranged from his mother. The last time they spoke was 2016. So. And he testified we're going to hear in SOT 10 that she was controlling and involved. Who is the leader in the family who tends to.
- [29:53]
Dave Aronberg
To run the show? I think my mom.
- [29:55]
Ashleigh Merchant
Okay, so Donna Adelen.
- [29:57]
Dave Aronberg
Yes.
- [29:58]
Ashleigh Merchant
Would you describe Donna Adelen's personality as being more controlling or more laid back?
- [30:05]
Dave Aronberg
I think more on the controlling side.
- [30:09]
Ashleigh Merchant
All right, so Dave, you think he was the most important witness? I mean, I was excited about him because we hadn't heard from him. But tell me why you think he was so important to this case.
- [30:17]
Dave Aronberg
Well, we had never heard from before. I thought he was the most interesting witness because you see how different he is from his brother Charlie. Charlie fashioned himself as the maestro. He lived in south Florida. He dated shotgirls. He was high on cocaine a lot. He was jacked up on steroids. He was living the fast life, going to Thailand to do God knows what. And he was the one on his Ferrari with the license plate maestro who thought he was the maestro, who thought he was like his mom pulling the strings, who could arrange for a murder. Meanwhile, Rob goes in a different direction. Rob actually was involved with a woman of Indian descent and his mother did not approve and so they had a bad breakup about it. But then he agreed to move on from his Indian girlfriend and he found someone else with his mother's approval that fizzled and he went back and married the Indian woman and they're happily ever after. And they didn't speak to his mom much. But what was reeling, and that was not allowed in evidence, by the way, but that tells you the backstory, but was really powerful was his conversations with his mom when he tried to bring up the murders, the murder of the son in law, someone like they knew so well, part of the family. And the mother never wanted to talk about it. In fact said, it's not my business. I don't care, really. I mean, this is the woman who was crying when she saw the photos of Dani. This exposed her for whom she is.
- [31:39]
Ashleigh Merchant
Yeah. And you know, we've got those clips to play. I think that one that you were talking about. But also when Donna told him that someone had knocked on Danny's door and shot him. How would she know that? So if we can listen to. Yeah, I think we've got that SOT11.
- [31:53]
Dave Aronberg
One of the things that she told me is, you know, it bothered me, but I didn't have any other details about. But she said that, you know, someone went to the front door and said, are you Dan Markel? And then shot him. And then I said, well, how, how could you know that? Who's telling you that? And she said, well, that's just what they're telling us.
- [32:15]
Ashleigh Merchant
So she said someone told her that someone knocked on Danny's door, said, are you Dan Markell? He said, yes, and the shooter shot him.
- [32:22]
Dave Aronberg
That's the story I heard. And you know, later we found out that wasn't what happened. But that story bothered me a lot because there's only one way you could hear that story.
- [32:33]
Arthur Adala
Okay, look, this guy though, could be cross examined up the hilt right from the very beginning. So your mother's very controlling. Correct? Correct. How old are you now? Oh, you're 30, 38 years old. So. And you haven't spoken to your mom in a decade. Right. So you were 28 year old. Right. And your mom has lived 10 years. Correct? Correct. And you haven't been around at all. Correct. Correct. And you don't know anything about. About Wendy and her marriage and her divorce and all of that stuff? Correct. Correct. And you don't know what role your mother played whatsoever. Correct. Because you don't call your mother. Right? Right. You didn't call it for Mother's Day. Right? Right. You didn't call her for her birthday. Right? Right. So therefore you think you don't really know the jury what your mother is like 10 years after you've spoken to her. So she was 68 years old and now she's 78 years old. Do you think people change over the time? Yes. Yes. So when you tell these people that your mother was controlling, you're talking about when you were to able 18 years old and you left the house, that's 20 years ago. Correct? Correct. And in fact, when she told you he got shot and someone came to the door and knocked on the door. She said, that's what they're telling us, Right? You don't know if a detective told her that. You don't know if she read that in a newspaper. In fact, it turned out not to be the truth. So she didn't know what actually happened. She just blurted something out that she heard. Correct? Correct. Thank you. I have nothing further.
- [33:49]
Ashleigh Merchant
Bam. That's going on Arthur's website.
- [33:51]
Dave Aronberg
That's not what the defense lawyer did. I think they asked two questions on cross.
- [33:55]
Arthur Adala
Well, they should have called me.
- [33:56]
Ashleigh Merchant
Yeah, exactly. And then that's, you know, that's what a good cross does. But. Sorry, Dave. No.
- [34:03]
Dave Aronberg
Arthur's a great lawyer, and you can see why. There were definitely some money left on the table by the defense here. But I think that Robert did a great job. He came across so credible, so sincere. With the pain in his eyes, you can just see it. That he didn't want to be there to testify against his mother. But he did it. David.
- [34:24]
Arthur Adala
What did. I don't know the answer to this question. What did he offer in terms of real evidence? Okay, his mom's a jerk. No, what did he give in terms of something? You can. Hold on.
- [34:34]
Dave Aronberg
His mother knew details about the crime that no one else knew.
- [34:37]
Ashleigh Merchant
She was wrong.
- [34:38]
Arthur Adala
But she's wrong. In other words, she doesn't know details. He said they came to the door and asked. He didn't die in the house. Right. He dies in the car, doesn't he?
- [34:46]
Dave Aronberg
No. Well. And we don't know if he actually said, are you Danny Markell or Dan Markell? So that. That's true, but the fact that the mother said it and what she said later about I don't care, and she refused to talk about it. He kept trying to bring it up and she would never want to talk about it just is bizarre.
- [35:03]
Arthur Adala
I don't know what kind of evidence that is that, you know, she's refusing to discuss it.
- [35:07]
Dave Aronberg
You know, I don't care.
- [35:09]
Arthur Adala
You're asking the jury to send someone to jail for life. Is that really evidence? Look, I don't want to talk about it. I didn't like the guy. We went through a horrible situation with this divorce. He tried to take my grandchildren away from me and from your sister. I don't wanna deal with it. It happened. And let's move on.
- [35:25]
Ashleigh Merchant
Well, also, I didn't think it was relevant at all.
- [35:27]
Dave Aronberg
Well, also, remember, her defense is that I had nothing to do with it. Wendy did it all on her own. Charlie did it all on his own. And here he is saying she is the most dominant, controlling person in the household. She's involved in every part of their lives. Who knows better than her own?
- [35:42]
Arthur Adala
20 years ago, your honor, 20 years ago, that's the last time he lived with this woman. Maybe more.
- [35:48]
Ashleigh Merchant
And I can't believe that they. That Robert was allowed to testify that he thought it was strange that Donna wasn't curious about who killed Markle. How is that relevant? How is that not objectionable? How was that allowed? We've got that at slot 12 if you can play that.
- [36:00]
Dave Aronberg
After the murder of Dan Markell.
- [36:04]
Ashleigh Merchant
Did Donna Adelson seem curious about who killed Dan Markell? No.
- [36:09]
Arthur Adala
Objection.
- [36:10]
Ashleigh Merchant
Objection. Speculation. Was there a complete lack of curiosity?
- [36:14]
Dave Aronberg
Yeah, nobody seemed curious.
- [36:18]
Ashleigh Merchant
Did you actually ever ask her, like after the murder, like, hey, like, what.
- [36:23]
Dave Aronberg
Do you think happened?
- [36:24]
Ashleigh Merchant
What do you. Objection.
- [36:26]
Dave Aronberg
Yeah, you know, the conversations were kind of rerouted or that was certainly discouraged. And it was probably like maybe sometime like mid August, you know, when I finally had a chance to ask and say, you know, what is going on? This was not a small event. This was getting a lot of notoriety. And I said, you know, what do you guys think happened? And she had said, you know, I don't know and I don't care. It doesn't concern me. Oh, come on.
- [36:54]
Ashleigh Merchant
Out of character for her to not be curious and I'll be asking some questions.
- [36:58]
Dave Aronberg
Yeah, I mean, it was, it was an unfortunate unsolved murder of, you know, my former brother in law, like someone that we, we all know very well. I mean, if it was like some neighborhood gossip, people would be interested. This was like national interest. And nobody had any curiosity about, you know, who did this to Danny.
- [37:17]
Ashleigh Merchant
That sounds like family gossip. I can tell. Arthur and I would have been jumping out of our seats.
- [37:21]
Arthur Adala
Objection. I'd be moving for a mistrial. I would. I'd be moving for a mistrial. Like relevance. It's speculation. What does it matter?
- [37:31]
Ashleigh Merchant
Right?
- [37:31]
Arthur Adala
And she's so controlling. You haven't lived with your mother in 20 years. How do you know how controlling she is? You know, I mean, this is stuff that should not be coming into evidence. It's not circle, it's not circumstantial evidence. Who. Who murdered somebody else by the fact that the defendant is not curious about who murdered somebody else based on who.
- [37:49]
Dave Aronberg
She is and how domineering and how much of a gossip and involved in everyone's life. The fact that she clams up and is not interested at all after the son in law is murdered, after she dedicated her life to writing the briefs to getting the kids back in South Florida. And then once the son in law is killed and the problem is solved, I don't care. And that's it, really. I just think it's very relevant. Maybe you want to object because it's too relevant, too powerful and too damaging to your client. Maybe that's why it's just speculation.
- [38:18]
Ashleigh Merchant
I mean, it can be damaging, but the jury's going to mistake that for something else. Something actual, real evidence, which they just haven't shown at this point point, especially with that witness. So there's one other SOT that I want to talk about. It is with Charlie. And Charlie hated Mr. Markell. There was testimony about how much of an overprotective brother he was. And I think this was from a boyfriend, ex boyfriend, of Wendy Jeffrey lacosse. He testified and he knew Charlie and testified a little bit about Charlie. And it gave us some insight into what Charlie was like. If we could play SOT 14.
- [38:53]
Dave Aronberg
She said, Can I tell you something in confidence?
- [38:54]
Arthur Adala
Yeah.
- [38:55]
Dave Aronberg
Can I tell you something after I challenge her? Can I tell you. Well, can I tell you something in confidence? Sure. Well, last summer, my brother looked into all options possible to take care of the Danny Markell problem, including hiring a hitman. And it would cost about $15,000.
- [39:13]
Ashleigh Merchant
Okay.
- [39:13]
Dave Aronberg
And when she referred to her brother.
- [39:16]
Ashleigh Merchant
She'S got two of those, right.
- [39:18]
Dave Aronberg
She said Charlie.
- [39:19]
Ashleigh Merchant
Okay. And when she said Charlie looked into hiring a hitman. Are you familiar with Charlie's joke? I looked into hiring a hitman, but got you a TV as a divorce present because it was cheaper.
- [39:34]
Dave Aronberg
Yeah, Wendy told me that joke a couple of times. This was not that joke.
- [39:38]
Ashleigh Merchant
Okay, so this was something different.
- [39:41]
Dave Aronberg
Yeah. The joke was said with levity.
- [39:44]
Arthur Adala
It's a dark joke, but this I found chilling.
- [39:49]
Dave Aronberg
I found disturbing. It made my stomach flip.
- [39:51]
Ashleigh Merchant
It kind of took me aback. It was.
- [39:54]
Dave Aronberg
She was dead serious when she said this and she'd asked to tell me in confidence, which you don't do before.
- [39:59]
Arthur Adala
You tell a joke.
- [40:01]
Dave Aronberg
Okay.
- [40:03]
Ashleigh Merchant
All right. I feel comfortable that Arthur agrees with me on this question. Dave, I'm going to ask you a question. Two more witnesses testified. One was June. It was Charlie Adelson's ex girlfriend was allowed to testify that Charlie was depressed and anxious when investigated. And then there was a friend, Ryan Fitzpatrick, that was able to testify that his demeanor. Charlie's demeanor changed post investigation. What is going on in Florida that these witnesses are able to say that someone is anxious because the police are asking questions?
- [40:32]
Dave Aronberg
No, it's relevant evidence. I mean, this is not hearsay. It's not what he said. For the truth of the matter, asserted the guy who's this cocky maestro all of a sudden now is. Is going crazy because the walls are closing in on him. And this is not the first time we've heard this from Ryan Fitzpatrick. And the other girlfriend, clearly Charlie has a type. This other woman reminds us a lot of Katie McBanowa. And it's been, it's been provided as evidence in other trials too. So this is nothing new. And the court allowed it and there wasn't even an objection to it.
- [41:07]
Ashleigh Merchant
I know there wasn't an objection. Doesn't mean it was right. And.
- [41:13]
Arthur Adala
Been a lot of objections. But yeah, as Ashley said, it doesn't mean it was right.
- [41:17]
Ashleigh Merchant
Doesn't mean it was right. I might rant on that a little bit later, but I want to talk about baby Emanuel. This is a case where there's a seven month old baby who is missing and believed to be dead, but they have not found a body yet. They arrested the parents on suspicion of murder. And we just learned that they've actually now charged the parents with murder. The police did not believe the the version of events. Essentially the parents had called the police and said that the baby was kidnapped. And police just said that doesn't make sense. We actually think something else happened. I think we've got some video. Video one. Oh, great. It's being ruled. Yeah. Where they're arrested. So they were arrested, which is interesting because there's no body. But they're still continuing to do the search. What we learned was that the parents have been married since 2021, but there's prior instance of child cruelty. The wife is still standing by her man. She's sticking to her story. But apparently there's been other abuse allegations. Arthur, what do you think? Whenever there's there's prior abuse allegations, what's going on in this case?
- [42:16]
Arthur Adala
Well, it also has to do with the cooperation aspect of it. Anytime someone is missing. Right. The first suspect is the significant other. Now, when you're talking about an infant, significant other is the parents, right?
- [42:31]
Ashleigh Merchant
Yeah.
- [42:31]
Arthur Adala
So as a defense attorney, if you're there with the mom, you know, you have to. If the mother is truly innocent, she's just going to spill her guts, which she started doing. And then when she got asked some tough questions, her lawyer told her to stop talking. That raises eye.
- [42:47]
Ashleigh Merchant
Lawyer?
- [42:49]
Arthur Adala
Yeah. Well, yes, but as a parent, I mean, I know that if something happened. I don't even want to talk about it. Something happened to one of my kids. But you know, I don't need a lawyer. Right. I'm just going to tell you everything. So they haven't really told us what the evidence is. They sadly, we don't have the child at this point the way we didn't have Casey Anthony when our mom was charged. Wait, Casey Anthony was the mom and.
- [43:11]
Ashleigh Merchant
Casey was the mom.
- [43:13]
Arthur Adala
Kaylee was right. Kaylee was the baby. So they charged Casey with before they found the baby. So it's the same thing here. But we don't know what the evidence is that they're charging him with murder. From a prosecutor's point of view, you better have some decent evidence before you're charging parents with, with killing or murdering your child.
- [43:29]
Ashleigh Merchant
Yeah, definitely. And it does sound like it was just inconsistent statements. So next we're going to get to your emails. We've allowed viewers to write in, so please email us. You can email us at mktruecrimelmaycare media.com email us anything you want us to talk about, any questions you have for us. And we're going to try to get to all of those questions after the break. I've been talking a lot about Riverbed Ranch lately because I love their steaks. Those Riverbend Ranch steaks are something else. Riverbend Ranch has taken Black Angus beef to a whole new level. Did you recently hear rfkj, head of the Maha movement, saying, really, all he eats is red meat and fermented products? Hello? Riverbed Ranch has got you covered. For the last 35 years, Riverbend Ranch has been creating a very elite Angus herd by using ultrasound to select genetically superior cattle with a focus on flavor and tenderness. When you buy from Riverbend Ranch, you're not only supporting the 64 Cowboys and Cowgirls and their families who work on the ranch, but you're also supporting over 260 other US ranches and the hundreds of American families who work on them. It is born in the USA, raised in the USA and processed in the USA. It is aged to perfection for 21 days and shipped directly from the ranch to your home. This is not your average Black Angus beef, so order from Riverbendranch.com use the promo code Megan for 20 bucks off your first order and let me know what you think. Riverbendranch.com promo code Megan. All right, we're going to get to some questions in a minute, but first we've got new body cam footage from Coburger from the police when they were interviewing one of the the survivors. She tearfully recalled Hearing when her roommate was actually screaming and she came face to face with a mask killer. If we could play the, the body cam that shows her talking with the other officer about what she heard. Pretty much. They were in the main room. I forgot the dancing and laughing. Kaylee went upstairs and she screamed as someone's in the room and she ran downstairs and I kept calling her name and she wouldn't answer. But I saw the guy. I swapped the door and I ran outside. We don't know what's going on. I heard her scream and she ran.
- [45:45]
Dave Aronberg
Upstairs because she saw someone.
- [45:48]
Arthur Adala
That's what I'm pretty sure she said.
- [45:49]
Ashleigh Merchant
She's someone's here. And she screamed and just ran downstairs. And I called for her name, but I jumped up and locked my door because I was so scared. And then I heard someone in the bathroom and I heard her crying and I heard some guys say that, you're gonna be okay. I'm gonna help you. And I kept calling her name, but she wasn't answering. And then I opened the door for a second and I saw this guy. And he was not insanely tall, but.
- [46:13]
Dave Aronberg
He was wearing all black and like.
- [46:14]
Ashleigh Merchant
This mask which is covering his forehead and his mouth. Footage like that is telling me why Brian Coburger took a plea and didn't go to trial. Because if you hear that, I mean, you just can't listen to that and not feel something in your gut. You know, that's the type of testimony that you need to plea. You need to admit to what you did.
- [46:34]
Arthur Adala
You can't overcome it. You shouldn't overcome it. It, you should plead guilty, you are guilty, and, you know, that's it. He's now going to live the life of the rest of his life behind bars. And I'm sure it's not going to be a very pleasant experience.
- [46:49]
Ashleigh Merchant
No, it has not been a pleasant experience. I mean, how do you explain this? You know, you can't overcome something like this at a, at a trial. You've got to tell your client that, you know, own up to what you did. I mean, this is just haunting. But you know, as a parent, I know you all are parents, it's listening to a kid. And that's what these are. These are kids listening to a kid. And the horror and the trauma that they went through, it's just, just, it's a lot. Dave, what do you think when you, when you hear that?
- [47:12]
Dave Aronberg
I, I, I'm thinking, I wonder if it should have been made public. I just to see this young woman just in so Such distress and trauma. I don't know the value of providing that video to the public at this point so that maybe throw it back to you guys. Should they have released this to the public?
- [47:28]
Ashleigh Merchant
You know, I'm a fan of face. Yeah. Without her face. I mean, I think one of the reasons that they don't release things like this is because it is hard to get a fair trial. And you know, the one thing that we always say is we don't want to try it. I know that's one of the things that the state and the defense can usually agree on. You don't want to have to try a case twice. And what I mean by that is you don't want prejudice infecting a jury because, you know, if you do have to put everybody through that, you don't want them to have to go through it twice. And so, you know, when they play their cards close to the vest on things like this, I think it's probably to avoid some type of prejudice. But anybody who, you know, if a jury heard this, I mean, you can't overcome that. I mean, that's just. That's raw. Yeah.
- [48:06]
Arthur Adala
Besides it being raw, it's like accurate. I mean, you're seeing like detail accounts of what took place and, and you know, unlike Robert in the segment before, who hadn't seen his mom in years and hadn't lived with. I mean, this is real time, real, real evidence.
- [48:23]
Dave Aronberg
Well, when I hear that, I just think this guy got off easy. He should have gotten the death penalty. Because if the death penalty isn't made for a sociopath murder, quadruple murder, like that guy, who is it made for? Why even have it then? And they let him off the hook by doing the plea deal early on without all the victims families in agreement, by the way. And now he's going to be in prison the rest of his life without parole. And we'll see. We'll see what happens. He's not pleased in prison right now. He's not getting the mental health counseling or, you know, people are yelling mean things at him. So he's not going to do well in prison. So this whole life in prison thing for him may actually not be very long.
- [49:03]
Ashleigh Merchant
Oh, I see. All those things about how he's having such a tough time in prison. And I just want to say, oh, come to Georgia. Have you read the reports about Georgia prisons? They are. They have nice prisons out in Idaho. This is a little bit different story, and I don't think anybody's really feeling that bad, especially after you Hear video like that and you just know what that poor girl is going to go through the rest of her life. I want to talk about one of our emails that we got. We are accepting emails. I'll read it again at the end of the show. But we'd love to hear from you if you do have things you want to talk to us about or you want us to talk about. We got from Aaron, we got an email about some work that he does, some volunteer work. And I just want to talk about it for a minute and encourage people to do this type of work. It's called casa and it's a child, a special advocate court appointed child advocate. Some states call them guardian med litems, some states, all different terms, but essentially it's the same thing. It's a person in the community that volunteers their time to help children who are involved in the court system. And how it works is you, you just, you take a class, they teach you how to do it and you are there to listen to what the kids want. Because, you know, if I'm going into, to court for a juvenile, I may not necessarily be looking out. I'm looking out for what my client wants, which is kind of hard to. But that's not always in the best interest of my client. And so these people are someone who actually talks to the kids who are involved in court. And it's not a lawyer, but it's, you know, we've got a lot of people listening to this show that are interested in true crime. This is a way to really make a difference. So I encourage you to Google casa, Court appointed special assistance, you know, guardian ad litems, things like that so that you can maybe help. And I think it's a great, great chance for people to really, really, really merge their interest with helping out from others. All right, so we've got our closing rants. One minute. Everybody gets to talk about whatever they want to talk about. Dave, you want to go first? Sure.
- [50:53]
Dave Aronberg
I want to talk about consciousness of guilt. So we saw this in the Don Adelson trial. Yes. It's a circumstantial case. Yes. There are things you didn't like that were admitted into evidence. But conscious of guilt is really powerful because we saw this with Charlie because after the arrest started coming down and Katie, his girlfriend, got arrested, he started freaking out. And why did he freak out? Because he knew he was going to be arrested because he knew he did something wrong. That's conscious of guilt. That's why it's relevant. And that's why it's so powerful in this case and you have these people who thought they were above the law, this family who didn't think the rules applied to them and each of them started to melt down through consciousness of guilt. You saw that with Donna. Donna decided to buy one way plane tickets to a non extraditable country, Vietnam. That's gonna be some of the most powerful evidence used against her. They caught her on the jetway climbing aboard the plane, but they arrested her before she could flee. Why do you buy one way tickets to Vietnam after your son has been convicted? Consciousness of guilt. So to me the consciousness of guilt is a powerful thing and sometimes you can be your own worst enemy. Not only is it powerful though, it's also an admissible thing, especially in Florida.
- [52:11]
Ashleigh Merchant
I know you talk about Adelson.
- [52:15]
Arthur Adala
That'S compelling. So for my one minute I want to change topics altogether. Something we didn't talk about today, but that's been very topical and it has to do with the American flag, the United States of American flag. It's something we all love. And I grew up in a household. My dad was a captain in the army I believe in front of his home right now he has three different American flags. He has the American flag, the bicentennial American flag and a 911 memorial American flag. And President Trump announced yesterday that he is, he signed an executive order saying that burning the American flag is he wants it to be a crime or he's signing an order that it should be a crime. And you know, I get what he's doing. It's near and dear to people's heart and we're about to celebrate the anniversary of this country. But I was very close with Justice Scalia and this was one of the decisions, Texas v. Johnson, where he joined the liberal majority, the likes of William Brennan and Thurgood Marshall, who were two lions of the left left saying that if it's your American flag, you have a right to express your feelings and burn that American flag. And he said it was the only case that his wife chimed in. The morning after he signed on to that decision, he came down for breakfast and his wife was humming the tune. You're a grand old flag, you're a high flying flag and forever in peace may you wave. So I hope the United States Supreme Court precedent stands for true.
- [53:49]
Dave Aronberg
That was really well said, Arthur. Those liberal act like Anthony Scalia. Well done sir.
- [53:54]
Ashleigh Merchant
Such a liberal activist. So my rant is based on some of the stuff we talked about today. I want to talk about demeanor and demeanor Being used in the court system, being used by law enforcement officers, being used in front of juries. And, you know, I know we don't like Donna Adelson. I get that. You know, nobody does. Nobody likes a lot of people that are accused of crime. But in this country, we're innocent until proven guilty. And what we do a lot of times. And you can see that in the baby Emanuel case. And again, we don't like people that harm children, obviously, but arrests based on demeanor and way people are responding and way people are reacting and using that evidence to convict people in court. I am so sick of that. Because after doing this for 20 years, everybody responds differently. Everybody responds to trauma differently. If you have a death in a family and you have five family members, some of them are going to be bald, some are going to have inappropriate laughing, Some are going to be throwing things, some are going to be punching things, some are going to be eating, some are not going to be eating. Everybody acts different. And we allow demeanor to be used in courtrooms every day. And it just was top of my mind because I saw this coming out in Adelson, the fact that she's emotional. We're reading into whether, you know why she's emotional. And, you know, I get that. But the jury sees it. Why do we need to highlight it? Someone is emotional. Everybody acts different. We heard from multiple witnesses, you know, oh, Charlie got anxious when the police were talking to him. Well, hell, who wouldn't get anxious when the police are looking at you? That's not evidence of guilt. That's normal. And, you know, we look at all of these people and how they react and their demeanor. It all comes down to demeanor. And every single one of us has a different trauma response. It is not evidence of guilt. And so my rant is just please stop relying on demeanor. And if you're on a jury, please ignore if the prosecution argues while they're acting guilty. That is not evidence. Thank you so much for joining us today and listening to all of our rants and all of our talk about all these exciting and interesting cases. Sad cases, interesting cases. But thank you for joining us. Tell us what you think of the show. Tell us if there's any stories you want us to cover. We would love to hear from you. You can email us at m mk truecrimevilmakehairmedia.com and our next show drops Friday. I hope you will listen. Your skin should never come second. That's why pact makes everyday essentials from the purest organic cotton. No toxins, no harsh chemicals, just softness you can feel good in. Because wellness isn't just what you put in, your body is what you put on it too. From the first layer to the last, getting dressed should feel like self care. Visit wearpacked.com and use code dresswell for 15% off your first order packed. Dress yourself well.