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MK True Crime
High Profile Lawyer Quits Nick Reiner Case, with Maureen Callahan, Plus Motive Questions in Dentist Double Murder and Uvalde Massacre Trial
01:15:10
MK True Crime hosts Mark Eiglarsh and Jonna Spilbor join the show to discuss the trial of Adrian Gonzales, the former Uvalde, Texas School District Police Officer, who is charged with 29 counts of child endangerment and abandonment after 19 children and two teachers were killed in a mass shooting at Robb Elementary in 2022, the many parallels to Mark’s time representing Scot Peterson, the officer charged in the Parkland, Florida school shooting in 2018, why horrific autopsy photos were admitted to be used by the prosecution in this case, the ongoing mystery of the murdered Tepe couple in Columbus, Ohio, the strange domestic dispute 911 call traced back to the Tepe home in April, speculation about possible motives for the double murder, Maureen Callahan, journalist, author, and host of the MK Media show “The Nerve” joins the lawyers to discuss Alan Jackson’s shocking withdrawal from the Nick Reiner case, where the case stands now, a judge’s decision to limit expert testimony in Kour...
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- [00:00]
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- [00:35]
Mark Eiglars
Hello, everyone, and welcome to MK True Crime. I'm Mark Eiglars, your host for today and I am a former prosecutor, a veteran criminal defense attorney, adjunct law professor, an author, and most significantly and most relevant, an avid pickleball player. Here's what we're going to be talking about today. Adrian Gonzalez, who's a former Uvalde, Texas school district police officer, is charged criminally, not civilly criminally. He's charged with 29 counts of child endangerment after 19 children and two teachers were tragically killed during a mass shooting at Robb elementary back on May 24th of 2022. We're going to bring you up to speed and talk about whether charges should ever have been brought against him. Also, an Ohio couple, they were executed with their children in the other room, their young children. We don't know why, but we're going to talk about it and try to figure that out. So far, there's been no arrests. We don't know about any motives, no forced entry. This is a really intriguing case and we're going to bring you the latest on that. And also Maureen Callahan. We're very lucky to have this journalist, author and host of MK Media, the nerve. She's gonna join us and give us insight and hopefully she will finally give us a definitive answer as to why Alan Jackson left the Nick Reiner case. Maybe she knows. She's an investigative journalist. She should know. I don't know. Anyway, I'm really excited about this show. Not just because that sounds good, but I really am excited about this show because my dear friend, veteran criminal defense attorney Jonna Spilber, she is the founding attorney of Jonna Spilbore Law, and we're always bantering about. She's here with me. Jonna, hello.
- [02:31]
Jonna Spilbert
Hello, Mr. Iglarsh. Happy New Year.
- [02:34]
Mark Eiglars
Oh, to you, too. Yes, it really is nice to spend time with you and hear your thoughts on some of these major cases. So thank you.
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Jonna Spilbert
No, happy to be here. As sad as some of these cases are.
- [02:47]
Mark Eiglars
I was going to say, let's start with a sad one. Nothing like a school shooting to start off the show. So, Adrian Gonzalez, we're going to talk about that case. Okay. As I said in the intro, he's charged criminally. People need to understand that. He's not charged with just violations of police procedure or policies. He's not even just in civil court, where the preponderance of the evidence must be met. And then he's gonna have to pay money for being negligent. He's being charged with being criminally negligent. Criminally negligent for his inactivity. Now, we've heard about similar cases, actually, one in particular when the state of Florida went after a guy named Scott Peterson. The other one, not the one who killed his wife, an unborn child, but Scott Peterson with one T. And he was represented by this attorney named Mark. Oh, holy cow, that's me.
- [03:47]
Jonna Spilbert
There he is.
- [03:48]
Mark Eiglars
That's right, the man. Well, thank you very much. Listen, I make light. But this was an unbelievably challenging experience where I lost sleep for four years zealously defending someone that to my core, not only do I believe is innocent, the jury found him not guilty of all 11 counts, including child endangerment and crazy stuff. Like it was crazy that he was ever charged. And candidly, this is how delusional I was. Every time we were in trial and the prosecutor would approach me, I'm going, he's finally going to drop charges. I really actually believe that. But politics played such a role. And we're going to talk, Jona, about how politics might have played a role. I'm not going to try to influence you in this case against Gonzalez. He's not the only one charged, as you know. There's the chief there, Pete Arredondo. He was charged by a grand jury in June of 2024. They're the only ones indicted. And I know a lot of people are asking why. We'll start with that. Why weren't all the other officers charged? We'll start with that. If these two should have been charged, and that should have been in quotes. Go ahead, John.
- [04:56]
Jonna Spilbert
Mark, can we peel back the layers a little bit? And I don't. I do definitely want to talk about the Gonzalez case, but I actually want to spend a little bit of time on the Scott Peterson case that you successfully represented the defendant in that case, because, you know, school shooting, school shootings, we've seen far too many of them in our lifetimes. But what strikes me is and it. I feel as though it pretty much started with. With your client, Scott Peterson. We know that when some nutjob goes into a school and shoots the place up and kills students and teachers and etcetera, we know that the actual guilty party, the mass murderer, is the person who goes in with the gun. And we also know that inevitably, on the civil side of things, the school and others will be sued civilly for the horrific damages caused to the children and families, etc. I get all of that. What was a bit new, in my opinion, was the fact that you had resource school officers, police officers, now being charged criminally because of someone else's crime. And in the case of your client, Scott Peterson, that to me, is something that I would love to know. The inside scoop on the conversations you had with the prosecutors, why they came to that charging decision and why they didn't come off that charging decision.
- [06:27]
Mark Eiglars
Okay, so first, to keep it fair, completely fair, I'm going to do something that I don't even know that I can do, but I think that I can. Right? And that is to play the role of the prosecutor for a second. All right, first, we have to believe erroneously that the facts are, and they weren't, that Peterson knowing precisely where the shooter was. And again, the same analogy to the Gonzalez case. That's what they're alleging. Knew where the shooter was and then didn't go in to confront the shooter. He cowarded behind a pillar, the alleged coward of Broward. And there is an obligation, again, I'm playing the role of the prosecutor, as much as I disdain this, that there's an obligation as a school resource officer to protect those people at the school. I could sign up for that if I had kids in that school. I would want a school resource officer to protect my kid. I'll tell you this. I'd be extremely vocal if that officer knew where the gunman was going, knowing that that gunman was going to harm children and failed to intervene because he's the only one with a gun that can stop that gunman. So just to keep it fair, then, that was the argument. The problem is both in the Gonzalez case and in the Peterson case, those were not the facts. They weren't the facts. We were all led to believe by the police chiefs, both of them. Because again, the shit's hitting the fan with the police chief. So he goes, okay, I need someone to sacrifice. I'm going to politically sacrifice Peterson. Or in the case of Vivaldi, I'll politically sacrifice Gonzalez. I give you Gonzalez. Don't look over here at my failings. Look over there. And people love to sacrifice people. So Peterson was sacrificed, and so was Gonzalez. But the facts. We don't get to the inactivity. The facts were different. Tremendous confusion on the scene. I called dozens of witnesses who heard the same shots that Peterson did and couldn't tell because of the pronounced echo and reverberation where the shots were coming from. Precisely. You know when you hear that. That siren in traffic, and you're like, should I pull over?
- [08:27]
Jonna Spilbert
Where's do I stop? Right.
- [08:29]
Mark Eiglars
Exactly what it was. So there were people who were closer to the shooting who said with certainty the shots were coming from outside, not inside a building. And worse, all the calls that the kids made from inside the building went to the Coral Springs Police Department. My client worked for the Broward Sheriff's Office. Coral Springs never called the Broward Sheriff's Office to tell him precisely where the shots are coming. Hey, dude, right in front of you is a 1200 building. Get in there. There's kids in there. Go protect them. He never knew. So you hear him saying in real time, where. Where's the shooter? Where are the shooters? He doesn't. He doesn't know. Look, we could talk for hours on that case. All I'm saying is that the similarities are with Gonzalez. It appears from his testimony, he also couldn't tell where the shooter was. He was on the south side of the building. Shooter went in, I think, on the west side. So he never saw the guy. He never saw the shooter. He had one minute. And he's not charged with not going after the shooter. He. He's charged with not shooting the shooter before he got into the building. That's it. For one minute, he didn't do that. That's because he didn't see the shooter. So wrong case, wrong politics, wrong everything. And, yes, I feel for the families, but you don't do justice for the victims by doing an injustice against decent, honorable officers.
- [09:46]
Jonna Spilbert
Yeah, no truer words have ever been spoken. And in such a crazy scene where you can't tell where this. Look, the shooter doesn't walk into a school and go, hey, here I am. Come get me, fellas. Right? They're busy doing the. The heinous acts of shooting innocent people and children. So I don't understand. And maybe you have a little insight to this, too, from your defense of Scott Peterson. You know darn well if we can talk a little bit about how the sausage is made when you're defending somebody. You had to have conversations with the prosecutors Perhaps you got grand jury minutes when you sit down with them, do you get an opportunity to say, whose decision was this to criminalize the officer's conduct? When you know there has to be recordings of them Every time a police officer does anything, they're typically being recorded, either voice or their body, whatever they're being recorded. They would know ahead of time. They, the prosecutors would know ahead of time who knew what and what they did. What happened to that evidence prior to coming to the grand jury?
- [10:52]
Mark Eiglars
You know, I didn't ask, Jona, because I know the answer. You know the answer. It's politics. There were prosecutors who covered. Who covered depositions during the four years that I was litigating this case. And they would tell me, yeah, just between you and I, I don't know why they're bringing this case. I never would have brought this case. So there were many prosecutors in that same office who thought it was ridiculous. But you have, again, parents. Who I still love. I do. I love them because they are living my nightmare. They lost their children. I feel for them. Do you know how difficult it was to this day? My heart goes out to them. I had to go to court and block them from getting what they consider to be justice because I wasn't going to let them sacrifice my client. I feel for them. And with that powerful force, they've made a lot of changes. They've done a lot of good. I've tried to donate to those charities. Some of those checks were sent back. I don't know why they wouldn't take my money. But I believe in the causes. I understand that. But what I did not believe in is pushing an agenda of prosecuting my client and. Or other officers who are on the scene who. Who just were set up for failure. The radios weren't working like in Uvalde. The radios start to fail. There's something called auditory exclusion. When your heart's pounding, you don't hear certain things. There's. It'll come to me another term where you don't see certain things. You get tunnel vision, you know, to sit back and Monday morning quarterback these decent officers who are putting their lives on the line every day. Who. Who didn't say, by the way, oh, there's an armed shooter about to harm children. I can do something about it, but I really could use a donut right now. You know, that would be great. I'm gonna go do that. And if that starts to happen, Jonna, we can have a discussion about whether you should bring criminal charges.
- [12:44]
Jonna Spilbert
Right? It would be a different it would be a different talk. But this is also why we have a civil side of things, because when you have situations where the radios aren't working or somebody didn't, you know, the two police departments didn't communicate with each other, that's negligent and that's actionable, and that can lead to liability. It doesn't necessarily mean it's criminal. And this case, the Gonzalez case, Mark, is almost like wash, rinse, repeat of, of what happened in Florida.
- [13:15]
Mark Eiglars
Let's hear. Let's hear a little bit. Let's see. All right, so SOT1 is, is just a piece of the prosecutor's opening. And by the way, here's the problem, and we're part of the problem. We can't play the hours of opening and testimony. So everybody then, unless you're watching it live, you have to rely upon little snippets of stuff. And then you hear from the talking heads who spin it. So you don't really know unless you're in the trenches, really looking at the evidence, as I was with Peterson. But again, here's a snippet of an opening statement, a portion of the prosecutor's opening. Let's listen to that. Was this his first day on the job? Was he a rookie? Adrian Gonzales was a veteran of 10 years. He'd been with the Uvalde Police Department for 10 years. He'd been in the school district for a year. He had thousands of hours of training. He went to compel training, which was active shooter training, which is pretty straightforward. When you hear gunshots, you go to the gunfight. He has been trained to go to the corner of a building and distract, delay and impede the gunman while help is arriving. But Adrian Gonzalez does nothing more than mic his microphone and tell other officers what's going on. So why are we here? When a child is in danger and calls 911, we have the right to expect a response. Well, he's right. Let's start with that. He's right on one point, and that is, yeah, somebody calls 911, an officer generally signs up to serve and protect and should go in. Got it. Unless. And then, yada, yada, yada, what are the facts? But two things that he. Two things that he did and or said truly bother me. First, I want to get your opinion on this is you. You saw him, like, sniffling up.
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Jonna Spilbert
Yeah.
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Mark Eiglars
And the tears. He did that for almost all his opening. How does that make you feel, Jonna?
- [15:27]
Jonna Spilbert
This is really tough because, you know, I've been as you have we go against seasoned prosecutors all the time. And some really rough cases, right? Child abuse, murder, all that. Really rough cases. I don't think in my entire career I've seen a prosecutor cry in opening statement. So my first thought, Mark, is this guy's full of crazy. He's acting, he's acting.
- [15:50]
Mark Eiglars
Although, hold on, hold on. I didn't even think that for a second. Hold on. You may be right. He may be turning on the tears because his whole strategy is sympathy, sympathy, sympathy. We'll get to that. But. But wow. I didn't even think that he might be faking it. No, I believe that the guy probably has a good heart. He probably believes that in his mission. He feels, I mean, like, like I did. Kids lost their lives. So he's wrapped up in this and he's, he's there with the victims and he's fighting for them. My question is, would you go sidebar and say, hey, judge, maybe he needs a tissue? Can we, I mean, he's, he's prejudicing this jury with a motion. Can he, can he pull his stuff together? You know, if a witness was crying, the judge would say, do you need a moment, ma'? Am? I'm just asking you, how does that make you feel as a trial lawyer?
- [16:32]
Jonna Spilbert
Yeah, I wouldn't like it. If I were sitting at the defense table, would I make even more of it by saying, judge, we need to take a break? Probably not.
- [16:39]
Mark Eiglars
Okay. But I just live with it. Right? You suck it up.
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Jonna Spilbert
I would, I would mention it and maybe use it to my clients advantage.
- [16:48]
Mark Eiglars
Got it.
- [16:48]
Jonna Spilbert
You cannot, you cannot litigate this case. I could tear up right now. When we think about all the children that lost their lives and the fact that they're going to show autopsy photos in connection with this case. Are you kidding me right now?
- [17:02]
Mark Eiglars
We'll get to that. Hold on. A couple other things I want to talk about. The other thing he says is, where I completely disagree is all he did was get on his radio and alert them. First of all, that is the first thing they're supposed to do. If he heard shots fired and didn't get on his radio, then I would say, well, hold on one second. You're not doing what you're supposed to be doing. But he did, to his credit. So you check that off again, you're going after him criminally for doing nothing. He didn't do nothing. His alerting that there were shots fired, then set in motion other responders, other things, lockdowns, things that should happen to protect the children. So that's number one. But what he left out, conveniently, was there's video, body cam video of this guy helping kids out of the window. He's in the hot zone. He didn't run away. He's helping kids out of the window, so he's saving their lives. He also made sure to get the master keys from the janitor so they could have access, whatever help that would be. He got the map of the school. He. He did things. So the prosecutor saying all he did was get on his radio is factually not accurate. Let's go to what the defense argued again. This is just a teeny bit of it. Defense attorney Jason Gross. See, there's. There's two lawyers on the. On the defense team. And it was very interesting to hear both of them go. Nick went second. Jason Goss, or whatever his name is, went first. Let's hear a little bit about what he had to say. From the time he first contacts Melody Flores to the time the shooter goes in the building. On the side is about one minute. That's what we're talking about. It's about one minute. This isn't a man waiting around. This isn't a man failing to act. They're not going to prove that. But what they are going to do, I'll tell you, they'll talk about it, too. What they are going to do is. They're going to show you the worst things that you've ever seen. You will not come out of this trial the same person in your heart. But what the prosecution wants you to do is see that. See those horrible things and get so mad at Adrian that you convict. So mad at Adrian that you say, convict him because of this horrible thing that's happened. And I. I can't even describe it. What they're going to do, they're going to try to play on your emotions. They're going to try to do that. Brilliant, right? Brilliant.
- [19:19]
Jonna Spilbert
Yeah.
- [19:19]
Mark Eiglars
So let them know, guys, I'm going to tell you what they're going to do. Here's what they're going to do. And you know what? First of all, and speaking to the lawyers, I was telling them, you know, be prepared for that. They're going to do that. How about. What do you think about the argument? I watched the whole thing where the judge was saying, in response to the defense's motion in limine. That's what it's called before trial. We don't want autopsy photos of dead kids being shown to the jury. But that's relevant, isn't it? Not if the defense is going to stipulate that they died. What's the relevance?
- [19:52]
Jonna Spilbert
So none when there's value.
- [19:54]
Mark Eiglars
Right?
- [19:55]
Jonna Spilbert
Right.
- [19:55]
Mark Eiglars
You weighed against the prejudicial effect. We all agree there's a big prejudicial effect. What is the probative value? And the judge. What about the judge's ruling? Jona?
- [20:04]
Jonna Spilbert
So I don't, I disagree with the judge's ruling. Which was, which was he's going to allow them in. But here's the other thing that I hope the defense will be able to convey at some point in the trial. And that is, if you ask me, prosecution knows it has a weak ish case. Why do I say that? You don't need to play on that level of emotion by showing autopsy photos of friggin children when it's stipulated by the defense. Unless you don't have additional facts on your side. And I hope to God that they during voir thoroughly and properly warned these jurors. And he mentioned, the defense attorney mentioned in his opening statement, you are not going to be the same. And I hope they warn them that they are going to see things that they will never unsee. And I'm furious that these, these people have to see it for no good reason other than to bolster a case that tells me is not strong enough without having to have that kind of histrionic, dramatic, horrible, life changing viewing by this jury.
- [21:15]
Mark Eiglars
Okay, let's flip it around, Devil's advocate. You're the prosecutor. Be honest with me. You're the prosecutor. You got this case, you believe in it. You have blinders on. You believe this guy didn't go in, he's a coward. You believe that criminal charges are appropriate. You got victims, families who are banging on your door every day wanting to move this case along. They're hoping for justice, pressure. The world is watching. Really, Jonah, you wouldn't try to get those photos in?
- [21:40]
Jonna Spilbert
No. No. Because every single one of those parents, brothers, sisters, grandmothers, best friends are going to be in that gallery. They're going to see them too. They're going to hear that kind of testimony. We know that these children perished. We know that it was a horrible situation. We know that somebody other than this officer did the actual killing. We do not need that kind of vivid imagery to get a conviction. And I would have a lot more class and compassion than this prosecutor seems to be showing in this case. And that you're never changing my mind on that.
- [22:15]
Mark Eiglars
No. And I feel the same way. You know, it brought me back to the Scott Peterson case. I remember when we were arguing, the very same thing. They had photos. Graphic, clear photos of kids in the stairwell, blood everywhere. It was horrific. I didn't think for a second the judge would allow that in. And most of the photos he did, because the prosecutors. And again, there is a distinction between them being in the, you know, in the laboratory, you know, being analyzed versus in a stairwell on the scene to show where they were positioned. And the prosecutors somehow, you know, bootstrapped to the argument of how they had to show the scene and all that crap. But it was all about sympathy. And you can say all you want, right? Judges, always instructors. Sympathy plays no role here. It should not make any room in your decision. Bullshit. Bullshit.
- [23:06]
Jonna Spilbert
With a prosecutor crying during opening statement.
- [23:11]
Mark Eiglars
The most difficult case. Listen, you and I both have tried cases with victims, okay? It's really rough. There's nothing like these victims. There's nothing. There's no more pressure than this. If I'm in that courtroom, I'm doing everything in my power. If I lost my kid, I'm doing everything to influence those jurors. I get it. I never held it against them. I have nothing to this day but love for what happened to them and the work that they did to make a negative into a positive. But, oh, my God, I don't wish that type of trial on anyone. So if he's convicted, this Gonzalez, right away I went, oh, well, wait, he's only looking at six months to two, up to two years, which is the case. But then it's like, per count.
- [23:58]
Jonna Spilbert
Yeah. Times 19 or 29. 29.
- [24:02]
Mark Eiglars
So all of a sudden, the stakes are high, Right? Like, really high. And, you know, this judge who doesn't throw out autopsy photos can imagine what he does at sentencing. So this is for real? This is for real. And what do you think would happen if he's found guilty? What do you think, if anything, that's going to do to future prosecutors and what impact that might have on law enforcement?
- [24:25]
Jonna Spilbert
Well, it will set a horrible precedent. But let me also say we need to do better, however that's possible, to not have these mass school shootings, whether it's, you know, two people or 29 people, we need to get better there. And it's hard to prepare for such an unexpected chaos. It is hard to prepare. And these police officers, I believe in my heart, most police officers are very good. And this man, Mr. Gonzalez, who's standing trial, he took an oath to protect and serve. You don't think he's dying on the inside, too, that. That he has to face these charges. You don't think he's dying on the inside? The 29 people died. You don't think that's killing him as a police officer? I'm sure it is.
- [25:07]
Mark Eiglars
Yeah.
- [25:07]
Jonna Spilbert
And so.
- [25:08]
Mark Eiglars
And how about this, Jonna? How about this? Getting it. Getting it wrong, meaning making mistakes doesn't mean that you committed a criminal act.
- [25:16]
Jonna Spilbert
Right?
- [25:16]
Mark Eiglars
Cops cannot be held up to perfection. They're gonna make mistakes. And if there's, if there's a doubt about something, it should error in the side of these officers. But again, I am not objective. Obviously I thought that I was. I still think that I am. And looking at the Gonzalez case, I said, all right, Peterson is Peterson. Those are those facts.
- [25:39]
Maureen Callahan
I.
- [25:39]
Mark Eiglars
But I looked at the Gonzalez case. I can't believe that they brought charges against him. But we'll leave it at that. It'll be interesting. Aside extremely interesting.
- [25:49]
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- [26:04]
Maureen Callahan
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- [27:33]
Mark Eiglars
All right, let's move on to the Tepe murders. All right, Spencer, and am I pronouncing that right? Tepe, by the way, you like Tepe.
- [27:39]
Jonna Spilbert
That's how I've been pronouncing it.
- [27:41]
Mark Eiglars
We'll go with that. All right, Spencer and Monique, Tepe. Let's see. So he, a respected dentist, 37 years old, and his wife stay at home. 39 year old wife, stay at home, mother. They were found dead in their upscale Columbus, Ohio home. Now, Spencer's employers and friends, they made a welfare check because he wasn't around and he didn't show up for work. That was on December 30th. They were found inside their home, shot dead multiple times. Monique at least once, apparently. And him multiple times. They happened. The murders happened sometime between 2am and 5am on Dec. 30. There's no forced entry that police observed, so suggesting that maybe the killer was let in. There were nine millimeter shell casings were found, but there was no murder weapon recovered. And what really makes this like, scary to me is that there was a one and a four year old child. Children there in the house unharmed, thank God. Unharmed, thank God. But they were right there when this happened. Okay, can we get the prepaid therapy program for those two? Because, oh my goodness, feel for them. Police are requesting surveillance footage from the public. So if you see this and you know anything about it, please call police. We need to figure this out. Tell me, Jonna, your initial thoughts on this?
- [29:03]
Jonna Spilbert
More importantly, so initial thoughts before I dove in was, well, this has to be a murder suicide, right? Children unharmed, no forced entry, middle of the night. We know that sometimes when couples are having a fight, maybe after they've had a little too much drink, that's a prime time to have those arguments when the kids are in bed. But no murder weapon. So it can't be a murder suicide without a murder weapon. Unless somebody else came in after the murder suicide and took the murder weapon, which makes absolutely no sense right now. Here's another interesting wrinkle. When you dive into this case, I want to say months earlier, there was a 9.
- [29:46]
Mark Eiglars
April 15, 2025. And we're going to listen to that call in a moment. I'll let you finish your thought, but April 15, 2020. Yeah, yeah. Yep, there we go. Tax. So maybe that's a link. Oh, you just discovered something at 2:45am.
- [30:00]
Jonna Spilbert
Again, middle of the night. There's a 911 call? Yeah, that so. And you know sometimes when people call 911 when couples are having a fight, they'll hang up before they actually say what's going on. And then the cops have to call back or they trace call and they figure out where you are. Something similar to that happened with the cops called back this 911 caller and all they got was this 911 caller, female, saying oh sorry, I was just having a little argument with my man.
- [30:26]
Mark Eiglars
Let's listen to it. Let's listen to it. We got it, we got it. Sat 3. Let's listen to it and we'll talk about it and analyze and see if it has anything to do with this. Go. Hi, this is 91 1.
- [30:40]
Jonna Spilbert
We just got a hang up call.
- [30:41]
Mark Eiglars
Is everything okay? Yeah, I'm sorry, I'm okay. Are you sure? Yeah, yeah.
- [30:50]
Jonna Spilbert
Okay.
- [30:51]
Mark Eiglars
Sorry. Okay. Well it sounds like you're crying. Do you need police, paramedics or anything?
- [30:55]
Jonna Spilbert
No, no, no, I'm okay, I promise.
- [30:59]
Mark Eiglars
I'm just emotional. Okay. I don't mean nothing. Well can, can I ask why had you called 911 in the first place? Like were you having an argument with somebody?
- [31:10]
Jonna Spilbert
It might be a got into it, but I'm okay, I promise.
- [31:14]
Mark Eiglars
Did anything ever get physical? No. You guys were just arguing. Nobody hit each other. Yeah. Okay. All right ma'. Am. Well I have the information here. I can go ahead and tell the officers to cancel. Heading over to your address. There's. Yes, if anything changes call us back.
- [31:39]
Jonna Spilbert
Okay. All right, sorry.
- [31:43]
Mark Eiglars
Wow, what a weird, weird call. Right Jona? Weird.
- [31:47]
Jonna Spilbert
What's weirder is that dispatch 911 didn't send a cop to the, to the, to the location.
- [31:53]
Mark Eiglars
Was it, was it though? I, I, I was debating. You think?
- [31:57]
Jonna Spilbert
Mark, she's crying, right? Sounds strange. She's hesitating in her. Oh. Is everything okay? Big silence.
- [32:04]
Mark Eiglars
Yeah, you're right. In the abundance of caution, you send someone, right?
- [32:06]
Jonna Spilbert
You send someone to do a welfare check, you send someone there. But the other wrinkle is that apparently the brother, the brother in law, wife is saying that that wasn't her.
- [32:19]
Mark Eiglars
Yeah, Rob, Rob. Ms. Le says 100%. I know her voice, not her. Right.
- [32:25]
Jonna Spilbert
Not her.
- [32:26]
Mark Eiglars
Okay, so what is this, right? No, I need you to answer me, tell me. We got to figure this out together.
- [32:32]
Jonna Spilbert
Well, okay, so I mean, all right, here's one scenario.
- [32:36]
Mark Eiglars
Yeah.
- [32:37]
Jonna Spilbert
The now late husband was having some sort of affair. Wife is not around.
- [32:42]
Mark Eiglars
Maybe I shouldn't have asked you. All right, go on. Yeah.
- [32:44]
Jonna Spilbert
Where do you get that from scenario number two.
- [32:46]
Mark Eiglars
Right.
- [32:47]
Jonna Spilbert
They have house guests that are having some sort of argument that night. And the house guest calls nine one one. Right.
- [32:54]
Mark Eiglars
Okay, I got a third one.
- [32:56]
Jonna Spilbert
Go on number three. It is her and the brother in law is wrong. Right, but we don't know because they didn't send cops to the house. Tell me your theory.
- [33:04]
Mark Eiglars
That's it? Those are the only three you got?
- [33:06]
Jonna Spilbert
Well, those are the three I got. For now. I want to hear yours.
- [33:08]
Mark Eiglars
How about number four? It didn't really come from the house, but maybe like close by. So it pinged maybe to the house, indicating that it was from the house, but it wasn't from the house. What do you make of that?
- [33:21]
Jonna Spilbert
91 1. When they called back, they got the wrong, the wrong house.
- [33:27]
Mark Eiglars
I, I don't know how all that works, but they. Right. Like a cell phone pinged right near there and it got attributed to the house, but it's not really from inside that house.
- [33:39]
Jonna Spilbert
Well then it would have made a whole lot of sense to send a car. Right? Would have made a whole lot of sense to send a car and find out if they had the right house, the wrong house, what this person's name was. You know, me and my man. And that's another thing. Not, not for nothing, do you, do you call your husband or my man? No, my husband and I were just having a disagreement. Not my man. My man is not a husband. And I could be, you know, look, I could be wrong, but you know, he's a dentist, they've got kids. My man, the father of my children, my spouse. Something other than my man.
- [34:15]
Mark Eiglars
All right, so gun to your head. Sorry for the pun, but gun to your head. You have to decide what happened here. I need to know. I trust you. I like you. You're smart, you're intuitive. You know, what the hell happened here? Okay, final answer. This is it. This is. And then we're going to compare the tape and we'll see.
- [34:36]
Jonna Spilbert
All right, here's what could have happened.
- [34:37]
Mark Eiglars
We find out, we're going to. We're going to hear what you have to say. What's your prediction?
- [34:40]
Jonna Spilbert
This is my total supposition. No additional facts. Just have to make it up. Pull it out of thin air.
- [34:46]
Mark Eiglars
Let's go.
- [34:47]
Jonna Spilbert
There had to be some sort of love triangle. Oh, with the three of them. The husband, the wife and another person who got upset. Very upset with the husband. That's why there are more bullet holes in the husband than in the wife. Couldn't leave any witnesses. Shoot the wife, don't want to harm the kids. Out I go. That's it. Take my weapon and that's it.
- [35:11]
Mark Eiglars
Wow.
- [35:11]
Jonna Spilbert
You explain it.
- [35:12]
Mark Eiglars
No, no, I don't feel like it. I just want to ask you.
- [35:15]
Jonna Spilbert
All right.
- [35:16]
Mark Eiglars
And not get sued for coming up with.
- [35:18]
Jonna Spilbert
And I said this is all. Well, you know what? We have a great guest coming on and I love when she says just my opinion.
- [35:24]
Mark Eiglars
Right.
- [35:25]
Jonna Spilbert
I'm going to pull that from Maureen. Count just my opinion.
- [35:28]
Mark Eiglars
Okay. Okay. We. Okay. And I thank you for that. All right, listen, next we have a very special guest. I'm excited to meet her, Maureen Callahan. She's going to talk about Nick Reiner's delayed arraignment. Why didn't that happen on Wednesday? Why did Alan Jackson leave the case? Why Corey Richards, the woman who allegedly murdered her husband with fentanyl, who wrote a children's book about grief? Why was she in court this week? I'm excited. Come back, we'll talk about it.
- [36:02]
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- [36:47]
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- [37:45]
Mark Eiglars
Welcome back to MK True Crime. So we all waited for the big announcement at the arraignment of Nick Reiner and it didn't happen. The big announcement was that Alan Jackson, the high profile attorney, said, I'm out of here. And we didn't expect that. We're going to talk about that in detail. And we're very fortunate today to be joined by Maureen Callahan. She's a journalist, she's an author, super cool gal, host of the MK Media show the Nerve, which I hear is fabulous. And I'm going to watch right after this. Welcome. Thanks for being with us.
- [38:24]
Maureen Callahan
Thanks so much for having me. I'm thrilled to be here. True crime has always been a really big fascination and obsession of mine. So I'm super excited to be on the MK True Crime Channel.
- [38:37]
Mark Eiglars
Yes. I can't wait for your insight. I'm going to put you on the spot at times and I'm going to just demand, like I did with Jonna, to know what happened, like, why did Alan Jackson leave the case? But again, know that that's coming. Let's talk about it. We waited for the arraignment. Right. Those are so uneventful. Not guilty. All right, let's move along. But it didn't happen. It got postponed. So Reiner did not enter his pleas. 32 years old, as you know, he's accused of killing his parents, famous Rob Reiner and Michelle Reiner. And the arraignment was rescheduled for February 23, and a public defender took over the case. Hmm. Let's listen first to some SOTs, some quotes from Alan Jackson on Wednesday, what he said right when he left the courtroom, that's SOT number four. Let's listen to that and we'll discuss it. This morning. I had to withdraw as Nick Reiner's counsel. Circumstances beyond our control, but more importantly, circumstances beyond Nick's control have dictated that. Sadly, it's made it impossible for us to continue our representation of Nick. I'm legally, and I'm ethically prohibited from explaining all the reasons why. I know that's a question on everybody's mind. We expect the public defender to step in. They've already been appointed and very capably protect Nick Reiner's interests as he moves forward through the system. But be clear, be very, very clear about this. My Team. And I remain deeply, deeply committed to Nick Reiner and to his best interests. Okay, Maureen, I've been eager to hear your thoughts. First of all, what are you hearing? We're all hearing the words, but what are you really hearing?
- [40:36]
Maureen Callahan
I'm hearing that Nick's siblings, Jake and Romy have emerged from the shock and trauma. Trauma of the slayings. And that's all been wearing off. And they've decided there's no way in hell their parents trust is going to fund their murderous brother's defense. Alan Jackson, by all reports, requires like a million dollar retainer. He charges up to reportedly $1,000 an hour. He just got Karen read off on her second trial. Karen Reed, by all accounts, is broke. Broke. And she had the, the public funding her. Her with like a GoFundMe and all of that. So I think that Alan Jackson, I think that Nick Reiner just simply cannot afford him. If it were anything other than that, he would have rolled right over into hiring another high profile criminal defense attorney who is not only well versed in cases like this, but who, unlike the public defender who we saw speak after that, knows how to talk to the media and likes engaging with the media. If you notice even his cadence at that presser, I mean, he's dragging it out. He loves it. He loves the attention.
- [41:52]
Mark Eiglars
Okay. Guilty is charged too. I'm just saying, you know, it's his moment. Right. All right, Jonna, I'm guessing that you think it has something to do with Mr. Green not showing up. And that's code for, you know, we'll go sidebar and tell the judge I need a continuance because Mr. Green is not available. And we all know what that means. That's the cashola. It was the money.
- [42:11]
Jonna Spilbert
It wasn't something to do with it was everything to do with it. Maureen is exactly right. And by the way, for those who don't know, Maureen Callahan's bullshit meter is like, bar none, you hold the trophy for that. So you got it, right? And you're a self proclaimed prosecutor. You're a true crime writer. You got that. You. You called it. You called it. And, and, and I'm calling it too, because this, I'm. I'm gonna say this. I'm embarrassed for Alan Jackson. I'm embarrassed that he came out, you know, with his swinging, you know, member. And he was gonna, he was gonna do all these great things for Nick Reiner. Doesn't matter that Nick Reiner's. Oh, he's sick. He's got this. He's Got schizophrenia. Oh, you know, terrible. And then all of a sudden, when the money doesn't arrive, it's like, oh, wait, we. We had. We can't. We can no longer do the bullshit. You didn't get paid and you don't know how to say eloquently.
- [43:07]
Mark Eiglars
And now on, excuse me, Mother Teresa, Spielberg want to get paid on your cases?
- [43:14]
Jonna Spilbert
No, I do.
- [43:15]
Mark Eiglars
Needs to be paid. He's not even from there.
- [43:17]
Jonna Spilbert
I guess. What. Guess what, Mark? I handle that before I get in front of a microphone. Before, not after.
- [43:26]
Mark Eiglars
But Maureen, there are times, as you probably know, where with the best of intentions, you move towards a case, you expect certain things to happen and things change. Didn't you suggest that maybe things were a certain way and he believed he would get paid, but then things changed. It's a fluid situation. And then now he has to back out, right?
- [43:46]
Maureen Callahan
Yes, that's what I think. And, you know, listening to Jona talk, it reminds me of that scene in Gone Girl where Ben Affleck sister is like, you need to hire Tanner Bolt, played by the attorney, played by Tyler Perry. So Ben Affleck goes to New York City and meets with Tanner Bolton. Tanner's like, oh, I've been waiting for you. You're the case I want to handle. And he's like, listen, man, I don't have a million dollar retainer. And Tanner's like, don't worry, we'll work it out. Because I know on the back end of this, I'm gonna get paid. I think that Alan Jackson also just sees that this is a loser. This is a loser trial. The best they can hope for is a plea of insanity.
- [44:24]
Mark Eiglars
He would have known that beforehand. Maureen, you think that.
- [44:27]
Maureen Callahan
I don't know. I don't know. I mean, maybe. But I think, you know, the lore for an Alan Jackson, you know, like you were saying, I think like some of the best, the best lawyers are partly like really great actors. You know, they really know how to deliver a soliloquy, a closing argument. They know how to, you know, banter with someone on the witness stand and, and really read a room. And I think he just. I think the lore of this trial was maybe too seductive in the beginning.
- [44:53]
Mark Eiglars
Well, wait, do you think that that's an interesting point, that somehow between the time that he signed up on the case, took the media coverage, then went to visit him, investigated the case thoroughly? Because that's what he claimed he did, right? He. He. Within days, he's already now investigated the case. How thoroughly? And now he's saying Hmm. I need out of the case. And Maureen just brought something up I didn't even think about. He then maybe thought this was a loser. And that's part of it. Jona, you buy that?
- [45:22]
Jonna Spilbert
I think he would have been okay losing if he were getting paid properly to lose. Here's the other thing. You can't even be an Alan Jackson and go start a. Go fund me for a case like this because everybody loved Rob Reiner so much that nobody's going to fund a schizophrenic, psycho pathic kids defense for this high profile attorney that way. Like it was either you get paid from the trust or you don't get paid. And then you either do it pro bono because you believe in this client so much and you don't need the money, Al, or you don't. And we. He just showed his true colors. And I'm sorry. I'm sure he's a great lawyer. I love the Karen retrial. He did a fantastic job. But I'm embarrassed for him right now, the way he.
- [46:04]
Mark Eiglars
All right, then, let's get to Sat 5 and I'll get both of your thoughts on this one. We have devoted literally every waking hour to protecting Nick and his interests. We've investigated this matter top to bottom, back to front. What we've learned, and you could take this to the bank, is that pursuant to the laws of this state, pursuant to the law in California, Nick Reiner is not guilty of murder. Print that. Print that. Right. Okay. You know. You know what? You can't take to the bank that retainer fee.
- [46:53]
Jonna Spilbert
You didn't right?
- [46:53]
Mark Eiglars
That.
- [46:54]
Jonna Spilbert
You can't take that.
- [46:56]
Mark Eiglars
Maureen's laughing. I want to know why you're laughing, Maureen.
- [46:59]
Maureen Callahan
Because he's such a drama queen.
- [47:02]
PureTalk Advertiser
Oh.
- [47:03]
Maureen Callahan
You know, pursuant to the laws of this state. Let me rephrase that. Pursuant to the laws of California, I want to make sure that the white hot lights of the cameras are on me for as long as possible. And then he goes, you could take this to the bank. Print that. Like, yeah, like we all want the hot doss from the Reiner. You know, like. But he said he's. When he says, oh, he will not be found guilty of murder, it's like, we're not as dumb as he thinks we are. We know you're speaking legalese. He probably won't be found guilty of murder. He will be found guilty of some form of homicide. It's just under whatever legal bucket they can get him into.
- [47:40]
Mark Eiglars
Well, I have my thoughts on it, but I want to hear Yours first, John. When he said. Listen to the words that he said, right? He says he's not guilty under the law. Like he didn't. Innocent. He didn't use the I word. You know what I'm saying? He's not guilty. I don't want to tell you what. Well, tell me what you think and I'm going to jump in and tell you what I think.
- [47:58]
Jonna Spilbert
So. Okay, two things. Number one, you're quitting the case, therefore I don't give a shit what you think he's guilty of or not. Number one. Number two, he used. I agree with Maureen, use that word carefully. Not guilty of murder. Because maybe he's already had a conversation with the prosecutors that ah, they're probably going to do something. Voluntary manslaughter. Cuz the guy's a psycho who was in between medications. And the third thing, and Maureen's going to appreciate this, Maureen, you need a celebrity lawyer portion of your program where you send them to the wood chipper. Not just actual celebrity, interesting celebrity lawyers who do this kind of crap in front of a camera. Wood chipper.
- [48:37]
Maureen Callahan
I love it. I love this as a new. A new target for we troublemakers over at the Nerve. You know, some people go directly from the woodshed to the wood chipper. And John, you shall be happy to know we're now going to institute a stump grinder for those remains which will then go in a burn pile.
- [48:56]
Mark Eiglars
Oh, I'm nervous I may wind up on her show in some quote. Because I've been there.
- [49:02]
Jonna Spilbert
You have to be exempt.
- [49:03]
Mark Eiglars
All right, but listen, I'm eager to share my thoughts. Okay? I've done it because I know I've been in his shoes. I've worn the fancy suit, I've stood there. I know what he's doing. Not guilty doesn't mean that someone's innocent. It means not proven. Every defendant is not guilty. There's the ones with the busload of nuns who saw him do it. With the confession and the DNA, they're not guilty too until it's proven. So to me as a lawyer, I'm like, nice trick. I mean it plays well to the court of public opinion, but not guilty means nothing. Secondly though, maybe there's some truth to it. He believes that he was not that. Nick. That. Yeah, Nick, Nick, Nick. Nick was not in his right frame of mind that, you know, he was absolutely sick. He's analyzed it. He doesn't even know that he did it. He was suffering from mental illness. It's not manufactured. He's not malingering it's real. And he doesn't believe that under the law he should be found criminally responsible. So that could also be murder. And third, it could just mean, you know what, guys? I want to look like I'm really still defending him, you know, and so let me just give you a. I'm tough on the way out. So it could be one of those three.
- [50:16]
Jonna Spilbert
He doesn't want his departure to look bad in the defense of his client. Like, I'm leaving because I only, I only represent innocent people. He doesn't want it to appear that way. So he's grandstanding in that regard.
- [50:27]
Mark Eiglars
All right, well, let's, let's get the prosecutor's response. SOT 6. Let's hear what they say. Are they confident in their case? We are fully confident that a jury will convict Nick Reiner beyond a reasonable doubt of the brutal murders of his parents, Rob Reiner and Michelle Singer Reiner, and do so unanimously. Thank you very much. Well, they can't both be right, Maureen. Somebody's not right here.
- [51:00]
Maureen Callahan
Yeah, somebody's not right. To your earlier point about Alan Jackson maybe working out. Oh, I really believe Jona, you know, he's, he was, he was having a schizophrenic psychotic break at the time. You know, we've all seen the video of him before the murders. Sorry. Walking away from the house after the murders very calmly going and buying a beverage at like a 7 11. Very calmly.
- [51:26]
Mark Eiglars
Right.
- [51:27]
Maureen Callahan
You know, he went to this hotel on Santa Monica Beach, I think, and put up, put up sheets to black out the windows. You know, the plan was apparently he was going to do a ton of drugs and maybe take himself out. The arrest. He didn't seem surprised to be arrested. I mean, it, it speaks of premeditation and trying to run and hide. So I just don't buy that he was having some sort of psychotic break at the time. As to the prosecutors now in this case, I am fascinated with the, the DA who's taking this on, who looked petrified before that bank of media and microphones. Like, she, her name is. Oh, we just, we just talked about this on the show. Her name is Kimberly Green. I think the aptly named Kimberly Green, who it seems has never dealt with the media before. Like, the, the reporters had to say to her, lady, like, you need to get closer to the mic. Like, we can't hear you. There's traffic sounds that are washing you out. And she just looked so timid and timorous and like, yeah, we're going to get, you know, it doesn't it does. It's not a good table setting moment. I think so.
- [52:36]
Mark Eiglars
So, John, we've heard of, of a number of cases where people are so guilty and then they say, well, I was mentally ill and they manufacture this stuff. But, but you would concede that he suffers from mental illness. This goes back to 2020. He was diagnosed back then with schizoaffective disorder. He had schizophrenic symptoms, including delusions and hallucinations and disorganized thinking. You're gonna have experts talk about that. So why is this completely bull? Why don't you think he's got a shot?
- [53:12]
Jonna Spilbert
No, it's not completely bullshit. He is going to be found guilty of the killing of his parents. The question in my mind is what level will it be mitigated because of his, his mental illness? And it probably will. And if you can mitigate it, perhaps he even ends up taking some sort of deal. If they can show, and maybe they will, that his medication. I think one of the defense floated that he was in between medications. They were trying to dial it in. They didn't get the right dose. That's legit. But that doesn't save you from all responsibility. That might just save him from two first degree murder charges.
- [53:52]
Mark Eiglars
But maybe. But what about Maureen? What about some jurors, if not all, I mean, they all have to agree to it, believe that he was so mentally ill, assuming doctors can prove this, so mentally ill at the time, that he just didn't know right from wrong, he did not legally appreciate what he was doing. I mean, look, it works in a fraction of 1%. So you're not alone. If you were to say you don't think that the jurors are going to go for it, but Alan Jackson certainly thinks it's viable.
- [54:20]
Maureen Callahan
Both things can be true. He could be suffering from schizophrenia and on medication and between medications. And he also could have had an inciting incident, which was a freeze out at the Conan o' Brien holiday party. Um, a, a major fight that was witnessed by the partygoers, at least one of whom by all accounts urged Conan and said, I want to call 91 1. This is terrifying. A party at which Rob Reiner reportedly told at least one person. I cannot believe I'm saying this, but I am afraid of my son. I think he could hurt me. And piece together all the video evidence we've seen of Nick Reiner that night calmly walking away and trying to evade capture and make the argument that in that night, that moment, he knew right from Wrong. He was filled with rage and he vicious. He waited for his parents to go to bed and go to sleep.
- [55:18]
Jonna Spilbert
He waited.
- [55:20]
Maureen Callahan
It wasn't even like a crime of passion.
- [55:23]
Mark Eiglars
You just said it. If it comes down to the details you show me that he tried to evade capture then well, why, why are you evading capture if you know that, you know, if you think that what you did was innocuous, it didn't mean anything. It's not illegal. They just need to show one little morsel. And most jurors are not going to excuse a homicide. Right Jonael?
- [55:45]
Jonna Spilbert
No, exactly right. And Maureen, you are a self proclaimed prosecutor, but you are also a juror. That is exactly the kind of calculus a juror would do in a case like this. And let's we have to add in the fact that in that jurisdiction, Rob Reiner was beloved and not many, I mean other jurors won't be as familiar with his wife, but that doesn't matter. So he was well respected and beloved and that's going to count for a lot in the prosecution and or defense of this case as well.
- [56:16]
Mark Eiglars
Okay, so let's. Maureen, had. You had your mouth.
- [56:19]
Maureen Callahan
I wanted to ask you guys a question. Do you. What, what are the chances you think this, this results in a plea. Plea deal. What are the chances that you think that this never goes before a jury?
- [56:30]
Jonna Spilbert
99%.
- [56:32]
Maureen Callahan
Really?
- [56:32]
Jonna Spilbert
99. Because here's why. Rob Reiner's kids are going to say we don't want, we don't want our brother to go to trial. We don't. We take a deal. Take a deal. He's sick. He's been sick for a long time.
- [56:44]
Mark Eiglars
But it's not going to be a good deal. I mean society. No, it's going to be. Let me explain. No, there's no way. When you say deal, it's not going to be like, you know, 10 years in and 10 years of probation. No, this guy is dangerous.
- [56:56]
Jonna Spilbert
Yeah.
- [56:57]
Mark Eiglars
So.
- [56:57]
Maureen Callahan
Oh no, I completely agree.
- [56:58]
Mark Eiglars
You would have to agree to something close to a life sentence.
- [57:01]
Maureen Callahan
To John's point, I also think that the Reiners would probably want a deal because a trial means family secrets come out. That was a very sick house. Yeah, that was a very, very sick house. That revolved around the needs, demands, tantrums and addictions of Nick Reiner. And they are not going to want to sully their parents reput with a trial.
- [57:23]
Mark Eiglars
That's a good point. And, and even if that stuff weren't true, that stuff gets manufactured by the defendant, giving his own perspective to the attorney. And then in good faith, the attorney spews all this stuff that, you know, it's his perspective. He's a sick dude. But they're going to say, oh, and. And the father did this to me and the mom did this to me, and all of a sudden, meathead ain't looking so good, you know, so.
- [57:45]
Jonna Spilbert
Exactly.
- [57:46]
Mark Eiglars
Yeah. All right, let's move on to Corey Richards. Wow. Tried to kill her husband with fentanyl and succeeded, apparently. Anyway, she was in court this week. There was a two day evidentiary hearing. She. What's a Moscow Mule, by the way? What is a Moscow? She disguised it as a. You're a drinker, Shawna. You're an expert drinker. Come on, be honest.
- [58:13]
Jonna Spilbert
It's the drink that they make in the copper cup, okay? It's made with honey and I can't remember. Yeah.
- [58:19]
Mark Eiglars
So she disguised this fentanyl drink as a Moscow Mule. She also then wrote a children's book about grief. Oh, my goodness. So there were motions in court today. She is charged with a bunch of counts. Insurance fraud, second degree felony, forgery, third degree felony, and the most serious ones are aggravated murder, an attempted aggravated murder, all first degree felonies. Okay, so she allegedly killed her husband, Eric Richards. So why were we in court this week? Let's start. General John, Why were we in court?
- [58:51]
Jonna Spilbert
Because, as we usually are ahead of a criminal trial, they were in court trying to get a judge to make some pretrial rulings, including what experts could come in, what other evidence could come in. This was a big sort of what expert testimony can we keep out? And the prosecution apparently wants to bring in quite a few experts. Again, a little bit odd.
- [59:14]
Mark Eiglars
Mark, let's talk about those. All right, there's three experts. I want to take them one at a time. Maureen, first of all, have you. Because I have never in 33 years of practicing law. I know. He's so youthful looking. No, 33 years. Tell me, have you ever heard of a pathway to violence? Model expert? What the hell is that? Do you know what that is?
- [59:34]
Maureen Callahan
Oh, that's incredible. New language. What an addition to the lexicon. So we've got an on ramp of gradual. I mean, my understanding is she's going for domestic violence as her defense, though. I guess that's their flowery way of saying there was this escalation and escalation that was normalized in the house until this poor woman, her only recourse was to poison her husband. By the way, she tried to poison him two weeks before on Valentine's day with a sandwich and it didn't work.
- [60:06]
Mark Eiglars
Oh. Oh. So the lesson there is. All right. No, don't do that. Have you ever heard of John? What is this pathway to violence model? What?
- [60:15]
Jonna Spilbert
What the hell is that, you guys? I had to look it up because in my almost 33 years of practice and thank you, Botox. I never had heard of that before, but it is. And Maureen got it right. It's like this, you know, you have the stages of grief. Apparently there's some sort of stages leading up to somebody who wants to kill someone, starting with grievance, and then going all the way down to the fifth one is the attack.
- [60:40]
Mark Eiglars
And doesn't it start with leaving the toilet seat up too much? Because I think that's happened right now in my household.
- [60:45]
Jonna Spilbert
And leaving the socks on the floor. Right. And the dishes in the sink. That all is part of it, Mark.
- [60:49]
Mark Eiglars
Clipping the nails. Someone defend me on that. You have to clip your nails at some point.
- [60:53]
Jonna Spilbert
Oh, God. Not in front of anybody, please.
- [60:55]
Mark Eiglars
Okay. All right.
- [60:56]
Maureen Callahan
So.
- [60:57]
Mark Eiglars
So the judge granted the defendant's request in part and said that this witness cannot testify as to evidence of guilt or to rebut the case, specific assertions as to why Richards did or did not commit the act she was accused of. What the hell does that mean, Jonna?
- [61:14]
Jonna Spilbert
That's not a win, Mark. That's what we always. You can't have an expert testified to the actual legal conclusion in case.
- [61:20]
Mark Eiglars
Correct.
- [61:20]
Jonna Spilbert
That's what a jury dance around the issue. So that's not even a win. That's normal.
- [61:25]
Mark Eiglars
Okay. All right, next one. A handwriting analysis expert for the forgery charge. Right?
- [61:33]
Jonna Spilbert
No, that's not even fun. That's not even fun.
- [61:35]
Mark Eiglars
It's not. Maureen. Anything about.
- [61:38]
Maureen Callahan
No, that just goes to whether she forged his name. Right. On insurance documents. Yeah.
- [61:43]
Mark Eiglars
Do you believe in that? Do you. If you. If you heard Maureen from an expert who said that she forged a signature, that is not his signature. And I know that because I'm an expert.
- [61:53]
Maureen Callahan
Yeah, I do. I give that a lot of credence. I give experts credence.
- [61:56]
Mark Eiglars
Really?
- [61:57]
Maureen Callahan
Yeah. I do.
- [61:58]
Mark Eiglars
You too, Johnna. You believe in that?
- [62:01]
Jonna Spilbert
I believe in that, but I also believe there are a lot of married couples who sign for each other all the time to the point where. How do you know? Like, their signatures kind of turn into one. You don't know who's signing what when. So who cares, though? It's the check. Who cares? They're going to show motive anyway without that, so they shouldn't have Wasted taxpayer dollars on that expert, in my opinion.
- [62:19]
Mark Eiglars
So this guy Throckmorton, his methods apparently are reliable and he is going to be able to testify. Okay.
- [62:27]
Maureen Callahan
That's how they got Robert Durst in that dock. Remember the doc where they, they found the Beverly letters addressed to Beverly Drive. That's how they got him.
- [62:39]
Jonna Spilbert
Right? Now there, it makes sense. There an expert makes sense. Here, not so much.
- [62:44]
Mark Eiglars
Okay. And then the final person was a domestic violence in the relationship expert, Sherry Vanino. And John, what do you make of this?
- [62:56]
Jonna Spilbert
I mean, I guess they're going to try to counter some burning bed argument, right? If she's going to claim. I don't know if she is. She claimed she's not even admitting that she killed him. So that doesn't, that doesn't fly. Like, she's not saying I killed him because I was a victim of domestic violence. She's saying I didn't do it. He was a drug addict. He did it himself accidentally.
- [63:14]
Mark Eiglars
Anything on that? Maureen, what do you think about the domestic violence relationship expert?
- [63:20]
Maureen Callahan
I think it's smart that it's a woman. And I think that. John, I didn't, I didn't realize this, and I find it fascinating that she's going to plead, not plead, but claim both that she was a victim of domestic violence, but that domestic violence. She's such a saint that she didn't even want to kill her drug addict husband who was beating her up and threatening their kids. He just did it himself. You know, it like strains like, don't insult our intelligence, please.
- [63:47]
Jonna Spilbert
That's going to backfire. That could really. That's where she's going to jump the shark, probably, if she tries that.
- [63:53]
Mark Eiglars
This case is going to be very interesting. Jury selection, where I think cases are one or one or lost. No one, no one talks about jury selection enough. It's everything. It's, you know who the people are who are going to be buying what you're selling. That starts February 10th to the 13th and then 17th to the 18th in 2026. So I can't wait to be there. Trial will start February 23rd. Okay. I can't wait to check out your show, everybody. Check out the Nerve.
- [64:20]
Jonna Spilbert
Maureen, you're awesome. You have to check out the Nerve. If you're listening to us and you haven't.
- [64:24]
Mark Eiglars
Please, please, not just because it makes you feel good. I really do want to check it out because Jonna, my dear friend, says I must.
- [64:30]
Jonna Spilbert
It's addicting and the nerve. You have great guests.
- [64:33]
Maureen Callahan
Exquisite.
- [64:33]
Mark Eiglars
Tastes good and it sounds light. It Sounds like you're not talking about heavy hardcore blood and guts and kids being killed like we were talking about. Sounds like it could be a little light and I can watch it around the wife.
- [64:46]
Maureen Callahan
It's, it's lighter stuff. We're pop culture. We do dive in sometimes to true crime, but we're really, we're really a cultural criminal prosecutor over here taking the likes of, you know, those needed, the Alec Baldwins of the world, the Meghan.
- [65:03]
Jonna Spilbert
Markles of the world and best selling author. Best selling author. So great.
- [65:08]
Mark Eiglars
So check her out again. Maureen, thank, thank you for joining us. We really appreciate it.
- [65:10]
Jonna Spilbert
Thanks, Maureen.
- [65:11]
Mark Eiglars
So nice to meet you. All right, next up, it's your mail. It's your mail and it's your closing arguments. I love that segment. Remember, we want to hear from you. We really do read everything you send and we design our show based around the feedback that you give to us. So email your comments and your story suggestions to mktruechrimel@caremedia. We'll be right back.
- [65:39]
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- [67:30]
Mark Eiglars
Welcome back to MK True Crime. We love getting your emails. We read them all and we definitely design the show around it. And we've got a wonderful one from Mary over the holiday break. And John, I want you to read that one.
- [67:45]
Jonna Spilbert
You got a wonderful one from Mary over the break. So okay, just tell me, what is your grandmother's name?
- [67:53]
Maureen Callahan
Mary.
- [67:53]
Jonna Spilbert
I just want. Okay, listen, Mary said. And thank you Mary, from all of us. I'm only teasing. She said. I love listening to the show. Every personality brings their own knowledge and humor, making the law approachable and understandable to us non lawyers out there. I especially like Mark Iglarch's closing arguments of positivity. I'm rather negative. I'm a regular. I'm a regular negative Nancy overall. But 2026, I will choose to be happy and practice mindfulness.
- [68:27]
Mark Eiglars
I love, I love that. I love it. I do. Because isn't that what it's about? I'm going to make my closing argument about that again, just happiness. Let's do that. We need more of it. All right, let's. We got a question from Arlen. Hello MK True Crime hosts. I'm fascinated with your show and the legal analysis you provide. My question for you is when you're defending someone who has confessed to you their guilt or you have every reason to believe that they are guilty and could be a threat to society, which I've definitely encountered, would you consider it a win to get a not guilty verdict? I understand the importance of defense attorneys and making sure the law is followed properly by the prosecutors. But is your objective always to get a not guilty verdict or is the objective simply to keep the prosecution on the straight and narrow and excellent question. I love it. Jonna, you start and then I'll go.
- [69:20]
Jonna Spilbert
Short answer is it's actually both because sometimes when you are doing your job and making sure that the prosecutors are doing their job, it could result in a not guilty verdict even if your client is actually guilty. So it's sort of hand in glove sometimes, not all the time. And the thing is, what we defense attorneys cannot do is if we know a client is guilty, we can't blow a case or not do our job because we think we're going to be doing society a favor. That's not what we are here for. We are here to make sure the police and the prosecutors act appropriately. And we're here to give the best defense we possibly can to our clients, bar none.
- [70:05]
Mark Eiglars
Agree. And I'll add something to that. A lot of the conduct of my clients repulses me. I'm being real. I represent all types of clients in state and federal court, and some of their conduct disgusts me. I look at those cases as a challenge for me to divorce myself from what they did and focus on what my job is, and that is to get them the best possible outcome under challenging circumstances.
- [70:35]
Jonna Spilbert
True.
- [70:35]
Mark Eiglars
So, again, it's very different than. And listen, I don't have to take certain cases. Some I might pass on, but it is a challenge to me to do everything I can, for my cherished clients are putting their trust in me. And if somehow I'm going to take a dive, that's not a case for me, and I would never do that. So I'm human. I'm a father. And, yeah, there's some clients whose conduct is so repulsive. But again, you're doing the job that you're signed up for. And that means if not guilty is what your client wants, then that's what you go for. Okay. All right. Great question.
- [71:10]
Jonna Spilbert
Well said.
- [71:11]
Mark Eiglars
All right, so closing arguments. I'll start. So people ask me, hey, Mark, how you doing? And my response is always the same. I'm choosing to be wonderful. And a lot of times, people laugh. They snicker. Really, what I'm doing is I'm reminding myself that in every single moment, I have a choice. I can choose to be miserable. Oh, boy. I've done that before. Or I can choose to be happy. Aristotle said, take charge of your thoughts. You can do what you will with them. I believe in that saying that came way before all these iPhones and all this modern technology. And that is, at any given moment, we can choose what thoughts to embrace. Ones that serve us well or ones that don't. I don't take every bit of food on the buffet line. I take what I like, and I leave the rest. Similarly, when my brain, who I call Biff, is sending me thoughts that do not serve me well, I take only the ones that work for me. And the rest I let go. That's happiness. It doesn't always work for me, I assure you. I embrace sometimes thoughts. Oh, Mark, you're not going to win this trial. Oh, my God. That guy just cut you off in traffic. You need to give him what he deserves. Oh my goodness. My wife is doing this. Oh my God. That judge, that prosecutor. And then I step back and go, hold on. Change your thoughts to change how you feel. We all have very limited time on this earth. I'm not being a Debbie Downer, it's just true. Even if you're blessed to live to 100, 110, 120, time goes like this. I don't have the luxury of choosing thoughts that don't serve me well because that's going to put me in a stinking thinking mentality. It's not always easy. It's a practice. Which is why every night I make sure I write my gratefuls. Throughout the day, I'm writing down my gratefuls. I try to get into an attitude of gratitude to change my thoughts, to change how I feel. So for those who this resonates with, that's wonderful. I hope you choose to be happy. For all those this doesn't resonate with, that's okay. You can have your misery back.
- [73:24]
Jonna Spilbert
Mark, can I add something to that? Because I did. You wrote a book on this very subject which I read interviewed you years ago on it. It's a fabulous book. So even though Mark is being all froofy and barefoot right now, it's a good concept and a great book and I appreciate you for that.
- [73:41]
Mark Eiglars
Thank you very much. It's behappybychoice.com and yeah, it's a short read and you'll love it. All right.
- [73:47]
Jonna Spilbert
I'm not here to plug the book.
- [73:49]
Mark Eiglars
I always love your closing arguments. Can't wait to hear what you have to say, John. I do it.
- [73:53]
Jonna Spilbert
Okay, so no tank tops, no shorts, no flip flops. These three phrases strike fear in the hearts of nearly every single defendant, litigant, party or petitioner who enters the hallowed halls of court. At what point in our nation's jurisprudence did we need to remind the public that they are entering a court of law, not a cruise ship, and and need therefore to lose the sweatpants. I'm in court every single day and some of the outfits I have witnessed on the parties, defendants and litigants are real head scratchers. It's very frustrating for a self proclaimed shoe whore like me to sit idly by watching fashion faux pas after fashion faux pas parade up to the bench, each one a fresh kick in the eyeballs. I've even considered lobbying to make leggings unlawful everywhere except yoga establishments, but then figured I'd have a lot of social media mom groups putting a bounty on my head but today I'm not here to complain about that. I mean, look, if you want to wear a windsock over a onesie to your traffic ticket trial, go right ahead. Instead, I'm here to complain about what my fellow lawyers of late have been showing up to court wearing on their backs and feet, for that matter. Now look, I practice in New York. We have seasons. It gets wet, it gets cold, it gets snowy. I get it. But for fuck's sake, please do not show up in court looking like you just finished shoveling your driveway, mukluk, snow pants, the whole nine, just because the temperature is hovering around 33 degrees. Okay, I'm not saying we need to revert to the white wig era of the 17th century. I. I've never been a fan of that either. But as an officer of the court, can you at least try not to pull a pair of khakis out of the dryer, pair them with an elbow patch sport coat, and think no one will notice or care that you look like you practice law out of a van down by the river? The number of young male attorneys who buy an off the rack suit and forget to unstitch the flap of their jacket, forcing me to obsessively stare at their backside while resisting the urge to jump up and rip it apart, is another pet peeve. But at least they're trying to look as if the pesky court appearance is slightly more important than the mucking of their chicken coop. Kudos to them. Look, our clients pay us big bucks to assist them in making decision decisions. Sometimes huge, life changing decisions. They deserve legal counsel who has his or her shit together. The very least we can do is look the part. It's been said, dress for the job you want. As I gaze upon a gallery full of tiredly dressed attorneys, it appears the job they want is doordash driver. Nothing wrong with that if you are a doordash driver. But when you're an attorney in court representing clients in serious situations, here's a better idea. Dressed for the job you already have.
- [77:04]
Mark Eiglars
Love it. So needed to be said.
- [77:07]
Jonna Spilbert
I knew you would appreciate that.
- [77:08]
Mark Eiglars
Totally. And I'm thinking both the lawyers and the defendants who are wearing the pot leaves and the the pink flamingo with one leg lifted up and who farted on the T shirt like what are you doing? I know. Anyway, that was wonderful. Maybe some attorneys will see that and throw a little tie around my neck or something.
- [77:28]
Jonna Spilbert
I hope so.
- [77:29]
Mark Eiglars
Anyway, that was wonderful, John, as always, thanks to Maureen Callahan and my co host today, Jona Spilbert. Who is just extraordinary. I just love you. Thank you so much for your thoughts and I hope all of you choose to have a wonderful day and an extraordinary weekend. Take care.
- [77:51]
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