Horror Movie Actress Sues for Harassment, “Julio Foolio” Murder Trial, and The Halloween Candy Killer

Summary

MK True Crime – Halloween Edition

Episode: Horror Movie Actress Sues for Harassment, “Julio Foolio” Murder Trial, and The Halloween Candy Killer
Air Date: October 31, 2025
Host: Mark Eiglarch
Panelists: Ashley Merchant (Criminal Defense Attorney), Matt Murphy (Former Prosecutor, True Crime Author)

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Episode Overview

In this special Halloween edition of MK True Crime, host Mark Eiglarch and his expert panel dive into:

1. The lawsuit brought by Terrifier actress Catherine Corcoran against the film’s producers, blending issues of contract, workplace safety, and sexual harassment.
2. The gripping murder trial of Alicia Andrews, accused as an accomplice in the killing of rapper Julio Foolio (Charles Jones), unpacking the complexities of accomplice liability in homicide cases.
3. A revisit of the chilling real-life case that fueled America’s fear of poisoned Halloween candy: the 1974 “Halloween Candy Killer,” Ronald Clark O’Bryan.
4. Some lighter moments discussing class action lawsuits over Reese’s Pumpkins and listener Q&A, all with a blend of legal acumen and signature dark humor.

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Main Segments Breakdown

1. Actress Sues Producers of Terrifier for Harassment and Unpaid Royalties

[05:00 – 15:09]

Key Discussion Points:

• Background: Catherine Corcoran files a federal lawsuit after starring in the cult horror slasher Terrifier, alleging breach of contract (unpaid royalties) and distribution of non-consensual nude footage, as well as sexual harassment and unsafe working conditions.
• Context: The movie, dismissed by the panel as “B — or C — level” but surprisingly lucrative ($105+ million grossed globally), kept costs low partly at the expense of cast safety and fair compensation.

Insights:

• Matt Murphy [05:00]:
  • Notes sexual harassment and hostile workplace claims “kind of a kitchen sink” move for attention.
  • "It’s a contract dispute… I think we’re seeing a little bit of the kitchen sink thrown in the plaintiff’s case."
• Ashley Merchant [06:28]:
  • Sees “fluff thrown in to aggravate people… They knew that’s what's going to get people… otherwise it’s just a breach of contract, and nobody really cares about that. That’s not newsworthy."
  • Producers’ admission (“we don’t keep records”) likely provoked the lawsuit.

Memorable Moments & Quotes:

• [06:09] Mark Eiglarch: “Who put the gun to [her] shooting?”
• [07:49] Mark Eiglarch (to Murphy): ”She’s hung upside down by her ankles over 10 hours in freezing temperatures… She claims she didn’t want to be topless. Who's that on?”
• [10:32] Mark Eiglarch: “She agreed to an extremely low upfront per diem rate… with the understanding she would get 1%. She’s made less than like, 2 grand.”
• [11:59] Matt Murphy: “No juror wants to hear that. No federal judge is going to want to hear that… You’re gonna take a hit in this either settlement or…”

Legal Analysis:

• Strong consensus: Contractual issues will likely withstand motions to dismiss, but the harassment claims are unlikely to survive statute limitations.
• Litigation likely to end in a settlement for unpaid royalties, not punitive damages for working conditions or alleged harassment.

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2. Murder Trial: The Killing of Rapper Julio Foolio (Charles Jones)

[16:33 – 32:36]

Key Discussion Points:

• Case Facts: Alicia Andrews is on trial for first-degree murder, accused as a lookout/accomplice for the killing of rapper Julio Foolio; the alleged shooters are being tried separately.
• Legal Strategy: Prosecution tries “low-hanging fruit” first to flip co-defendants; defense aims to distance Andrews from direct involvement, focusing on her lack of direct action or intent.

Analysis & Quotes:

• Ashley Merchant [17:47]:
  • “She might have had some inkling as to what was happening, but whether or not she actually conspired... I think that's kind of far-fetched.”
• Matt Murphy [19:14]:
  • “I am certain that behind the scenes, they've made great efforts with this young woman to get her to flip already… You go for the lowest hanging fruit, you go for the weakest link in the chain…”
• Gang Association:
  • Prosecution’s introduction of Andrews’ boyfriend’s gang ties intended to prejudice the jury.
  • [22:23] “I would have fought my butt off to try and keep any reference of gang out of her trial since she is not charged with gang charges.” – Ashley Merchant
• Text Evidence:
  • [23:05] “He need to die.”—Prosecution uses this 2021 text from Andrews as evidence, though defense points out it predates the murder by several years.
• Jury Considerations:
  • [26:05] “I would have that jury charge on merely present blown up as big as the court would let me… That’s a defense.” – Ashley Merchant
• Trial Fireworks:
  • Exchange between judge and defense over witness contamination with sequestration rule [28:19–29:26].
  • “We've all been yelled at. The judge is right. They screwed up… they turn around, try to blame the prosecutor.” – Matt Murphy [30:20]

Memorable Moment:

• Discussing why young women sometimes refuse to testify against their “bad boy” boyfriends, often to their detriment:
  • “It never, ever works out well for them.” – Matt Murphy [19:57]

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3. The Reese’s Pumpkins Class Action Lawsuit

[33:43 – 39:18]

Key Discussion Points:

• The Lawsuit: Hershey’s sued over “misleading packaging” — pumpkins did not match wrapper imagery.
• “How do you establish damages on something like this?” – Matt Murphy [35:51]
• Lawyerly creativity:
  • [39:11] Ashley Merchant’s mock argument: “He wanted that money back so he could go and he could find her an actual bell…”
  • Ultimately, panel dismisses it as a prime example of why civil courts get bogged down with frivolous claims.

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4. Revisiting the "Halloween Candy Killer" — Ronald Clark O’Bryan

[40:08 – 48:20]

Key Discussion Points:

• Case Recap: 1974, O’Bryan poisons his 8-year-old son’s Halloween Pixy Stix for life insurance money, creating decades of Halloween paranoia.
• Both panelists agree: The facts are especially egregious and justify the death penalty.
• Legal/Ethical Dimensions:
  • The role of defense attorneys in death penalty cases—emotional toll, constitutional right to defense.
  • [43:02] Matt Murphy: “You are 100% convinced. And it's got to be genuinely awful. It has to shock the room…”
• Death Penalty Process:
  • Execution occurred within seven years—remarkably quick by today’s standards.
  • O’Bryan’s last-ditch appeals included challenging the legality of lethal injection drugs.

Quotes:

• [41:27] Ashley Merchant: “I mean, it gives me goosebumps to even think about. His son started throwing up… and within an hour his son was dead. It's unimaginable…”
• [44:21] Matt Murphy: “I could have watched this guy get executed and frigging eat popcorn as they did. This is so…”
• [48:20] Ashley Merchant: “With death penalty cases, you have to make sure at that point in your life that you can emotionally handle it, because he's probably going to be executed, and he was."

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Listener Q&A

[52:22 – 53:55]

• Book Follow-up:
  • Matt Murphy confirms a forthcoming sequel to The Book of Murder, featuring more serial killer prosecutions, after signing with Disney.
  • “I went into the unit thinking I knew everything about serial killers and I knew nothing…” – Matt Murphy [52:48]

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Closing Arguments

[54:01 – 59:12]

Ashley Merchant: Accomplice Liability Explained

• Outlines legal definitions: Accomplice, conspiracy, felony murder—why people like Alicia Andrews can be charged equally to actual shooters if they aid, agree, or facilitate.
• "The law treats you the same as it does if you committed the crime… all it requires is that you helped…"

Matt Murphy: Halloween, Serial Killers & Police Cuts

• Discusses how rare but real serial killers are, and how funding cuts to police disproportionately affect specialized units, hampering their ability to protect communities from the actual predators horror movies are based on.
• “Psycho killers are real, and we must have good cops that are well trained to catch them and make sure that they don't get our loved ones next.”

Mark Eiglarch: Resilience Through Dark Times

• Shares a moving personal story about overcoming the loss of a child and the role of pain in growth:
  • “We don’t look at ourselves as victims… Instead, today, when we have those challenges, we say, we're so grateful that this is happening for us. You see, through our pain, we've grown…”

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Notable Quotes & Timestamps

• On Lawsuits:
  • “This is why we can't have nice things. This is why we can't have a fast and efficient court system because we have stuff like this.” – Ashley Merchant [36:23]
• On Prosecutorial Strategy:
  • “You go for the lowest hanging fruit, you go for the weakest link in the chain, and you try to flip them or get them to testify.” – Matt Murphy [19:14]
• On Halloween Paranoia:
  • “He also killed my Halloween experience when I was a kid.” – Mark Eiglarch [39:19]
• On Serial Killers:
  • “The FBI estimates there are between 25 and 50 active serial killers in the United States at any given time… But…they are the consummate interspecies predator. And we need good cops to track them down.” – Matt Murphy [57:06]

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Segment Timestamps

• Introduction & Overview [00:56 – 05:00]
• Terrifier Lawsuit [05:00 – 15:09]
• Julio Foolio Murder Trial [16:33 – 32:36]
• Reese’s Pumpkins Lawsuit [33:43 – 39:18]
• Halloween Candy Killer/O’Bryan Case [40:08 – 48:20]
• Listener Mail & Book Discussion [52:22 – 53:55]
• Closing Arguments [54:01 – 59:12]

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Tone & Style

The episode mixes dark humor (“The clown himself has become famous. But I couldn’t even get to the scene that they’re talking about because the movie was so funny-freaking bad…” – Matt Murphy [09:26]), real legal deep-dives, and personal empathy—especially in Mark’s heartfelt closing monologue. Panelists use sharp, direct language, balancing seriousness with levity, and never shy away from sharing strong, candid opinions.

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Summary Takeaways

• Hollywood lawsuits often include “headline” allegations to generate leverage and publicity, but contracts are what matter most in court.
• Accomplice liability can carry the same weight as pulling the trigger—jury selection and timeline of evidence are critical in such trials.
• True crime origins: The Halloween candy myth has a singular, horrifying origin in parental greed—a stark reminder tragedy can seed national paranoia.
• Legal system quirks: Not all lawsuits filed have merit—some are just plain nuts.
• Resilience and compassion: Panelists temper their professional experiences with humanity and advice for those going through struggles—fitting for Halloween’s haunting spirit.

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For fans of true crime, legal drama, or simply a smart, entertaining podcast for your Halloween, this episode probes the dark, the absurd, and the deeply human with expertise and heart.

Transcript

[Matt Murphy]

With my job, I can't drink during the week. Weekends are a different story.

[Mark Eiglarch]

Ugh.

[Sponsor/Ad Voice]

After eight hours of this, I have earned my wine. You know what I'm saying?

[Matt Murphy]

My family is a lot. It takes me four beers just to hang out with them.

[Mark Eiglarch]

Binge drinking isn't all college kids doing keg stands. Oregonians in their 30s and 40s binge drink at close to the same rates as younger people, raising our risk for.

[Andy Cohen]

Long term health problems.

[Mark Eiglarch]

[e-mail] an OHA initiative.

[Andy Cohen]

Hey everyone, it's me, Andy Cohen. Buckle up because I have a podcast called Daddy Diaries where I take my listeners on an as it happened recount of life as a daddy to two kids, dozens of housewives, and the occasional fella. Listen to the Daddy Diaries to hear about my high highs and low lows of parenting, housewives, drama, and so much more. Daddy Diaries available wherever you listen to podcasts.

[Mark Eiglarch]

Hello and welcome to MK True Crime. Happy Halloween, everyone. This is a special Halloween edition of MK True Crime. I'm Mark Eiglarch, your host for today. I'm a former prosecutor, been a criminal defense attorney for over 30 years in spite of my youthful appearance. Adjunct law professor. What else? I'm an avid pickleball player and you can reach [e-mail] we have wonderful guests I can't wait to introduce you to. But first, let's talk about what's on the docket today, what we're going to be talking about. An actress in a major horror movie franchise filed a lawsuit in federal court this past week against producers alleging you didn't pay me enough royalties. Also, she says she was sexually harassed. Does she have a case? Our experts will tell you. Also, rapper Julio Foolio was gunned down last year and there's a first degree murder trial going on. The defendant, Alicia Andrews, is fighting for her life on first degree murder charges. And we'll bring you the latest on that case. Plus, you're going to want to stick around for this. We're going to revisit the real 1970s case where the fear of poisoned Halloween candy originates. Yeah, the guy who bummed out my Halloween when I was younger. We're going to talk about him. I'm joined today by an all star panel and that's not. I'm not just saying that cuz it's written there and it's not written there. I'm saying because I really am privileged to be around two phenomenal attorneys and get to chat with them and get their thoughts on These cases, they're both MK true crime contributors. We've got Ashley Merchant. She's a top notch criminal defense attorney from Atlanta, Georgia. And she's also the woman that Fanny Willis actually has nightmares about. True story. Yeah, we've also got Matt Murphy. You've seen him everywhere. Phenomenal former prosecutor, did tons of homicides. He's author of the book called the Book of Murder. And I've heard he's the only person who can actually scare serial killers. Yeah, that's also true. All right, welcome you guys.

[Ashley Merchant]

Good to see you. Happy Halloween.

[Mark Eiglarch]

Yes. What are you guys wearing? You got a costumes? Matt, what are you wearing?

[Matt Murphy]

You know what? I'm. I'm handing out candy. Non poison candy this year. And you know, every year it's a little different, Mark. It's like sometimes I get. I get like 100 kids that show up my door and then sometimes I will have like three and then I'll gain five pounds because I'll eat all that candy by the end of the month.

[Mark Eiglarch]

And you, Ash, what are you dressing up?

[Ashley Merchant]

I've already eaten half of my candy. But we have some new puppies and they're going to be aliens. So my daughter and I are thinking about. Well, we were talking about being alien attackers, but I think we're gonna be astronauts.

[Mark Eiglarch]

Nice. Okay. Clean. Keeping it clean. Very nice. Let's jump right in and talk about a movie called the Terrifier. One that the Golden Globes and the Oscars never really took a serious look at. For good reason. I looked at it and candidly, it looks more like a porn movie really. The acting is not great, but that doesn't mean that Catherine, quote Corcoran, who has sued producers and series director Damian Leon, doesn't necessarily have a legitimate claim, does she or doesn't she? She's alleging breach of contract and the distribution of sexually explicit materials without her consent. She filed a lawsuit this past Sunday in federal court in California, Matt's place. She filed it October 26th. I'll jump to you, Matt, right out of the gate. We'll discuss the facts. You're in California. It almost seems like we hear about this all the time, right? Low budget movie, B list actresses then later claiming somehow they were taken advantage of, young actress fraud committed against them, sexual harassment, betrayal. What do you make of this lawsuit, Matt?

[Matt Murphy]

Well, I'm just happy they filmed it in la, to be honest with you. Because so much production has been driven out of California because of unions and insurance and everything else. You know, this is an interesting one right because there's allegations of sexual harassment that our attorneys have put forward and essentially hostile workplace because apparently she was hanging upside down during this one scene. But then there's allegations also that there was non consensual nudity. And that's one that I'm kind of having a hard time wrapping my head around. She was an actor in this film and she was hung upside down for a scene that apparently took many hours to shoot, according to the lawsuit. But, you know, my take on this, just shooting from the hip here, Mark, it seems like this is a. It's a contract dispute where for whatever reason, they were unable to resolve it. And I think we're seeing a little bit of the kitchen sink thrown in in the plaintiff's case.

[Mark Eiglarch]

Yeah.

[Matt Murphy]

I don't know how. I don't know how. The statute hasn't run on anything outside the contract elements of this, you know, and I don't know how you claim, you know, that it was non consensual.

[Mark Eiglarch]

Yes.

[Matt Murphy]

She's shooting a film. She took her own shirt off, I guess, for, for the scene.

[Mark Eiglarch]

That's. But that's questionable, right? I mean, that little question, right? Who put the gun to shooting? Right?

[Matt Murphy]

Yeah. Shooting from the hip. You know, that's. That's my initial impression on this when I, when I looked into it a little bit. Yeah.

[Mark Eiglarch]

All right.

[Matt Murphy]

I don't know. What do you think, Ashley?

[Ashley Merchant]

I mean, I completely agree. I think that that was just some fluff thrown in to aggravate people, because that's what gets headlines. Talking about her being topless, talking about the horrific work conditions, you know, having to be upside down. I mean, that's why people click on it. So I think that's nothing more than really clickbait. And they knew that, putting that into the complaint. They knew that that's what's going to get people sort of interested in this because otherwise it's just a breach of contract. And nobody really cares about that. That's not newsworthy. The judge isn't going to care. Nobody's going to care. I do think that they may have some liability if they really are going to use the defense. They don't keep records. And I think what that probably did was just piss everybody off and cause the lawsuit to be filed when the producers are saying, oh, well, we didn't pay you because we don't keep any record records. They're making a lot of money off of this. They should have just kept paying her royalties and avoided this lawsuit. So I think they may have something on the Breach of contract. But I think the rest of it's just fluff.

[Mark Eiglarch]

Let's hear from her. There's a clip that we've got. She speaks to the dangerous scene that she performed in 2023. Let's play that clip and I'll get your thoughts on the other side.

[Matt Murphy]

Tell us about shooting that now iconic scene.

[Ashley Merchant]

There was a lot. There were a lot of things there.

[Mark Eiglarch]

That were pretty dangerous.

[Ashley Merchant]

And we're very candid about that.

[Mark Eiglarch]

You know, it was a condemned building. We didn't have a rig, which, you.

[Ashley Merchant]

Know, as somebody who does.

[Mark Eiglarch]

Who does do stunts, you know, and Jenna, who is.

[Ashley Merchant]

Is an incredible, incredible stunt performer, will tell you, like, is really necessary for something like that. Something like that.

[Mark Eiglarch]

There's this rush that happens, so you're at risk of seizure and brain trauma. Okay, all right. She makes a point, Matt. Let me ask you this. So I understood that during this one of the scenes, anyway, she's hung upside down by her ankles over 10 hours in freezing temperatures. She's topless, although she claims she didn't want to be topless. Who's that on? Like, did producers screw her over? Did she not know? You know what? How do you handle this legally?

[Matt Murphy]

Yeah, I think legally. I, you know, again, my gut here, I. I don't specialize in plaintiffs cases out of Hollywood, but it. There's a thing called an msj, which are letters you guys are going to immediately recognize, means motion for summary judgment. I got a feeling that a lot of this, A lot of these allegations are going to. Are going to go away by the federal. Federal judge. They're going to grant. I bet they're going to grant a bunch of motions to dismiss. They'll probably let the contract stuff go forward just like Ashley said. But yeah, I mean, there's. You're talking about a young actress in Hollywood that is trying to make it and winds up. This isn't even like a B slasher movie. It's a C slasher movie. And I'm with you, Mark. And I love Halloween, guys. Probably my favorite holiday of all. I think I've seen every scary movie. This is one that. It's got a huge cult following. The clown himself has become famous. But I couldn't even get to the scene that they're talking about because the movie was so funny.

[Mark Eiglarch]

Freaking bad, but horrible.

[Matt Murphy]

You never know what's going to hit or not hit. And I'm with Ashley on it. If there's legitimate contract things that she may be entitled to. But a bunch of this stuff, a bunch of these allegations. You've got a statute of limitations for the viewer on most of this, and it's a lot shorter than 10 years. Sometimes you can toll or extend things based on date of discovery in plaintiffs cases, but I can't think of anything on there as far as the salacious allegations that are gonna survive a statute of limitations challenge. But again, these lawyers might be great. They might really know what they're doing. But I think Ashley's right at the end. I bet this boils down to a contract dispute and maybe a payday for her.

[Mark Eiglarch]

Well, let's talk about the numbers, Ashley. Okay. I thought this was like, why are we even talking about this? This nothing burger movie? And then I learned there was a sequel, and then there's a third one coming out. And it collectively have. Has grossed more than $105 million at the global box office. Plus, there's video profits, there's themed events, there's.

[Ashley Merchant]

There's an app.

[Mark Eiglarch]

Right. There's money here. And she agreed to an extremely low upfront per diem rate with the understanding that she would get 1%. She's made less than like, 2 grand on this thing. Sounds to me like someone's screwing her over. Yes. No.

[Ashley Merchant]

Yes. I mean, I think they are. On the breach of contract, you know, on the other stuff, the other claims about the, you know, the awful working conditions and how horrible it was. She had to take her top off. She agreed to all that free will. She wasn't coerced, she wasn't tricked, she wasn't underage. She agreed to that. You know, maybe she's having some second guesses now. I think all of that was added in to reach a settlement, and that's probably what's going to happen because they most likely are breaching the contract if they had a contract. And I don't know that we've actually seen because the one that's attached to the complaint isn't signed. So, you know, if they actually had a contract that said she was entitled to this 1%, it's probably going to come down to a situation where they just have to figure out the numbers. And all this other stuff is going to be. It's going to be struck. It's going to be what we call surplus age, which is kind of a boring word, but it just means it's not relevant, you know, the awful working conditions, how horrible it was for her. That's not relevant. That was put in just to make a splash, just so people actually paid attention to this, because otherwise it's not relevant. And she's still acting. She wants her name to be in the news and putting those allegations. That's why people are talking about it.

[Mark Eiglarch]

Okay, Matt, what about the producer's response? I love this. When asked about, you know, where's my money? His response was, I don't keep records. Really? Can you do that?

[Matt Murphy]

Can you say that? If that. Yeah, if that. No, you can't say that. And if you do, Ashley's exactly right. You're gonna, you're gonna take a hit in, in this either settlement or, you know. No, no juror wants to hear that. No federal judge is gonna want to hear that. And. Yeah, and I think that this, I think Ashley's spot on. You know, I. The one thing that I would caution the attorney though on this, and I know you guys both have the exact same thought, like when you got a legitimate contract dispute like this and there's going to be some element where her credibility is going to, is going to matter. I would, I would, I would really want to shy away from having her do too many interviews while the case is pending regarding the horrible working conditions because it can undermine her credibility. I think if she's a professional, she's got a really good contract claim and she very well might talking about how hard it was and brain damage and all this stuff. I think that does not serve her or the case very well. Then again, I've represented a couple of actors in Hollywood and keeping them away from cameras can be a tall task.

[Mark Eiglarch]

Yeah. Let me ask you about this, Ashley. Again, devil's advocate. There's a lot of allegations made in this federal lawsuit and one of them concerns the conditions. We talked about her being topless. She insisted that she wanted to wear underwear on the day of shooting, but apparently they claimed that they wouldn't let her. Now I've learned through this lawsuit, cuz I don't specialize in this area of law, that apparently the Screen Actors Guild requires written consent if they're going to get an actress to go topless. Right. You read that, I'm sure.

[Ashley Merchant]

Yeah, definitely.

[Mark Eiglarch]

Apparently they either have her written consent or they don't. If they don't, isn't that problematic?

[Ashley Merchant]

It is problematic, but it's problematic because that's a union. The Screen Actors Guild is a union. It's not a statute, it's not a law. It is a union regulation. So they've got their own remedies for that. If they violated that, they're going to have to deal with the screen actor skill SAG as it's commonly known. And that was another thing. You know, SAG had a minimum daily rate, $100 that they had negotiated. Just like any other union. They had negotiated that. And that's what she was paid. Is it minimal? Yes. Were the conditions awful? Yes. Could she have walked away?

[Mark Eiglarch]

Yes. Got it. So, Matt, final question on this because I'm eager to talk about this Tampa murder case. Let me ask you final question. They're seeking a full accounting, aren't they? In that ballpark, when they file this lawsuit, won't a judge at least allow them to find out what the numbers are so they know whether she's been screwed over or not?

[Matt Murphy]

I think the answer to that is yes, Mark. I think that a judge is going to, they're going to approach this with a sober mind and they're going to want to do it. Right. Right. And that's something you're certainly entitled to. But as Ashley said, that's super boring. You know, that's why it's not leading it. And as an attorney, of course, you seize right on that. And I totally agree. Judge is going to give them that and almost certainly. And then we're going to see the money and then I bet, I bet she gets a piece of it at the end. That's my, my, my guess on this one.

[Andy Cohen]

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[Mark Eiglarch]

All right, let's move to a murder case, something that Matt certainly knows a heck of a lot about. And Ashley defends and so do I. We're talking about a case involving the death of rapper Julio Fulio, whose name, candidly, I've never heard until I was told we're doing this segment. And when I joked that he sang our wedding song, somebody believed me. Earlier, rapper Julio Foolio was killed by someone, and prosecutors in Tampa believe it was Alicia Andrews and about four other people. They're going to trial later on. She's been separated and she's going to trial now. She's facing a potential life sentence here in Florida. And she allegedly stalked this guy and was Julio Fulio's real name, by the way, is Charles Jones. And Alicia's boyfriend, Isaiah Chance, allegedly is a gang member and they together served as lookouts. And the state is saying they followed him and the other ones came to kill him. Ashley, you've enjoyed following this case. What's your thoughts?

[Ashley Merchant]

I have definitely enjoyed following this case. And I think one of my favorite things is just saying his name, Julio Fulio. Sure, it is kind of fun to say, but it's unfortunate because he was shot down, he was gunned down. But, you know, I think this is one of those cases where they have chosen to prosecute Andrews first. And she's the, you know, the low hanging fruit. She's the easier target for them, but she's not the one that they're seeking the death penalty for. So I kind of think this is a practice trial almost for them because they've got, you know, they've got the other four people, the other four gentlemen who are all the ones that they're saying actually did this crime. They actually committed the shooting. And they're saying that Andrews was really. I mean, they're trying to say that she was deeply enmeshed, but that's not what the evidence has shown so far. It's shown that she was there. She might have had some inkling as to what was happening, but whether or not she actually conspired, whether or not she actually made an agreement, you know, conspired to do this, made enough to be proven that she was an accomplice, I think that's kind of far fetched. But what's really caught a lot of folks eyes is the, you know, the heat in the trial, the very difference between the prosecution, the judge and the defense. There's been a lot of really heated exchanges between them. And, you know, just. The defense is just having a hard time holding their own in that courtroom.

[Mark Eiglarch]

Yeah. I'm going to play a few clips in just a moment. Matt, put on your prosecutor's hat. It's not hard for you to. Let's say they get the conviction against her. Right. What are the chances that you as the prosecutor, then say, all right, listen, you were the lookout. You played the least significant role. We really want these other guys, and we want to put them to death. Are you flipping this gal against them or you don't do it?

[Matt Murphy]

Well, and of course, you went. You went right to the. To what we're all thinking, Mark, on that. I am certain that behind the scenes, they've made great efforts with this young woman to get her to flip already. In fact, I would guarantee it. And you see this, especially in gang cases and theories of attenuated liability, you often go exactly like Ashley said. You go for the lowest hanging fruit, you go for the weakest link in the chain, and you try to flip them or get them to testify and cooperate against everybody else. And I cannot tell you guys, I know you've seen the same where you have a young woman who's in this situation, who chooses young love over her best advice from her counsel and her.

[Mark Eiglarch]

Own.

[Matt Murphy]

Legal self interest, and it. It never, ever works out well for them. So, yeah, I think they convict her. They. It may be too late for the. For the defense, but I'm sure that behind the scenes, there were efforts to do that already.

[Mark Eiglarch]

She'll get life. So, you know, the defense is putting on their knee pads and they're going to beg to the prosecutors, you know, to do something. They're not going to. They're going to go Hail Mary on this appeal and think it's going to come back on appeal. They'll be looking to cooperate. I want to play some of these clips. Let's go to clip number one. This was actually played at trial. It shows the foolio shooting. Let's take a look at that first. Hmm. Okay, so we see that. Let's go to another clip. Let's jump to the best friend. This is a piece of evidence. A best friend of Alicia Andrews is saying certain things. I don't want to give it away. Let's play clip number two.

[Ashley Merchant]

You said you have known her for over a decade. What. How would you describe the nature of your relationship? She's one of my bestest friends. Did Alicia Andrews ever mention to you that Isaiah Chance was in a gang. She mentioned that there were rumors that he was in a gang. And she specifically told you that she was aware that he was in a gang as that.

[Mark Eiglarch]

Correct.

[Ashley Merchant]

She was aware that he was tied in or affiliated within a gang, yes.

[Mark Eiglarch]

Okay, so she hangs out with a gang member. That. That's not game, set, match, Matt. Right. That's just one little factor. Right?

[Matt Murphy]

You would agree. Right, okay, but.

[Mark Eiglarch]

But there's more. Right?

[Matt Murphy]

There's more.

[Mark Eiglarch]

There's more.

[Ashley Merchant]

But.

[Mark Eiglarch]

But it does hurt. Ashley, you don't want to have a client who's known to knowingly hang out with a gang member because gang members do violence. You are accused of. Of a significant act of violence. Right.

[Ashley Merchant]

100%. And that is why the state put this evidence in. They want to paint her as a bad person with making bad choices. That's the whole point of this. But is it really relevant that she knew her boyfriend hung out with gangsters or was a gangster?

[Mark Eiglarch]

Matt would tell you. Yes. Matt would say, I like that fact.

[Ashley Merchant]

And I think we'd have a piece of the puzzle. I mean, and that's. And he would argue that. And I would argue it's not relevant. I would argue that it doesn't prove or doesn't tend to prove or disprove a fact and controversy. She's not charged with being a gang member. They are, but she's not. She's being tried separately. So I would have fought my butt off to try and keep any reference of gang out of her trial since she is not charged with gang charges.

[Mark Eiglarch]

Okay, I want to have a little fun. Matt, I keep playing you as the prosecutor. I want you to be the defense attorney for a second. You know what they're arguing. Pretend like you're the defense lawyer. What are the defense saying? I mean, there's a lot of evidence against her. What's the best argument here?

[Matt Murphy]

Oh, the best argument here is either she was totally in the dark and didn't know what they were going to do, which. Which may find some traction. There's some problems because of. She wrote a text message to one of her friends, might have been the woman being examined that we. In the clip we just saw where she said, he.

[Mark Eiglarch]

He need.

[Matt Murphy]

He need to die. Yeah.

[Mark Eiglarch]

We should play that clip. Let's wait, pause for a second. Let's play that clip and I'll let you continue. That's clip number three.

[Ashley Merchant]

And then the defendant then texts back to you. And this is January 21st of 2021, 83839am Girl, I don't like Foolio LMFA. Oh, ugly ass bitch. He need to die.

[Mark Eiglarch]

Ooh. I'll let Matt go. But get ready, Ashley, you got to defend that. That's, that, that's not great. Matt, what would you argue?

[Matt Murphy]

Yeah, look, that number one, she can hate him, but she has to do something to effectuate the actual killing itself. And the accusation is, is that she's essentially working as a lookout. And there's two ways you can skin that cat, prosecution wise. One, you can say she's a full blown co conspirator which is a little more complicated. The way I always prefer to do these as a prosecutor was it's just aiding and abetting because it's much lower bar. Did they do anything to promote, facilitate or encourage it in any way? And that's where I think probably the most persuasive part of the prosecution here is that she knowingly aided in some way, defense wise. I think what they're gonna do is they'll say a she didn't know and if she did, she is not a gang member. But she suddenly found herself in this gang world even though I think she's with the guy for a couple of years and she's intimidated by these guys and she goes along with it. And we both, all three of us, we've seen that run probably many, many times in murder cases just like this where the girlfriend of some dude who's up to really involved in the murder knows more than she's willing to give up and did something to help. And those are kind of the two go tos she didn't know and if she did, she was intimidated. And sometimes those work, especially when you've got really, really bad guys that are coming up next. Trying her separately is a good strategic move by the prosecution because if the shooter or one of the guys they really got dead rights is sitting next to her, I think juries are a lot more likely to cut her slack and say they get justice out of getting the trigger man or the main mover in the conspiracy. Those are my thoughts.

[Mark Eiglarch]

Yeah, I like if I'm trying this case, I like that the bad guys are nowhere near her. So I can crap all over them. All over them. I'm comfortable when I'm trying a case with co defendants and I want to say they might have known, but not my sweet innocent dolphin that got caught up in the tuna net. Ashley, I always tell my law students that it is critical the most important part of the trial that nobody talks about because it's not on any tv, cheesy drama or movies is jury selection.

[Ashley Merchant]

Oh, yeah.

[Mark Eiglarch]

I need to know whether I've got jurors who will refuse to punish my client for merely being present. Because that's the argument. As Matt talked about the Schultze defense. I know nothing, I see nothing from Hogan's hero. It's a long time ago. But she didn't know. And she was merely present with this bad guy, right?

[Ashley Merchant]

Oh, I would be. I would have that. I would have that blown up that jury charge on merely present. I would have it blown up as big as the court would let me. And as much as I could get through the door to show mere presence, because that's a defense. But you know that statement that he needs to die, that was in 2021. So if I was defending her, I would distance her from that statement as much as humanly possible, and I would turn it around on the prosecution, say that's all they got. They got something three and a half years old that says he needs to die. Don't you think if he. She had said that he should die in 2024, 2023, they would bring it. They're bringing you some old ass text from 2021 where she's joking about not liking him because that's all they got. They have no other text. They have no texts about her talking about this murder recently, hey, let's go to Tampa to off this guy. Anything like that. And you bet if they had that, the jury would be hearing that and they're not.

[Mark Eiglarch]

Yeah, yeah, go ahead.

[Matt Murphy]

Sorry. That's why I'd be afraid to try it against Ashley.

[Mark Eiglarch]

I was just going to say.

[Matt Murphy]

That makes me nervous. I. That would make me afraid right there. But also, I'll tell you what, if it was Ashley on this, Ashley and I don't want to speak for you, but Ashley would have flipped this chick immediately. She would have been on the witness bus. Ashley would have had the client control to get her to do the right thing.

[Mark Eiglarch]

I bet she would try, but she would fight back. I wouldn't say hi.

[Ashley Merchant]

I would. And I'm glad you brought that up, though, because, you know, I was thinking about this when you were talking about it earlier, Matt. So they offered her. I think it was something like 18 years. And I was thinking about how hard it would be to try and convince. Was she 22 now? Can you imagine? Like, that's. I. To a prosecutor, that seems like a deal because she's facing life. But you know, from defending human beings when you're 22, 18 years that's, you know, that's a hard thing to sell.

[Mark Eiglarch]

And here in Florida, we do not have parole. Doing 85% of her time, it's not going to be easy for her. So I don't know, as great as Ashley is, I don't know that she would have been able to flip this gal. Now, listen, I want to shift to something else in this trial. There were some fireworks in court. We were talking about it before we started on air. And, Ashley, we loved that. This judge is fiery and the defense has issues. Let's play clip number four and we'll talk about the significance.

[Ashley Merchant]

You invoke the role of sequestration. That means all witnesses. It's incumbent upon the lawyers, as the professionals that they are, to tell all of their witnesses as well. You're not to be discussing the case. You're not to be watching it on Court tv. Tv. And apparently that didn't happen, right? Didn't happen. Inexcusable. Well, you, Honor, if I may respond. We are professionals, just like every other attorney in this courtroom. The bigger point that I was making is that the way that Mr. Harmon has been speaking to this side of the table is unprofessional. It's disrespectful. He's done it in front of the jury as well. And there has not been any attempt by the court to intervene in that. So I want to make sure that it's on the record, that inappropriate. The rising tone is unnecessary and it's disrespectful. And it's inappropriate. Despite everything that's happened in this trial.

[Mark Eiglarch]

Is on the record.

[Ashley Merchant]

Everything's been videotaped. The conduct of everybody involved. Okay. And the failure of the defense to tell their own witnesses not to talk about the case is inexcusable. And that's a matter of record.

[Mark Eiglarch]

I cringe because I've been there. I've been there with tough judges. Right. I had one. Every time I asked for a sidebar, she rolled her eyes. Okay. And then I said, listen, Judge, with utmost respect, when I asked for a sidebar, I appreciate it if you wouldn't show the jurors your disdain. She lost it. She cried. She was horrible. Anyway, just very briefly before we move on, because I want to get to some great topics in segment two. What do you make of that, Ashley?

[Ashley Merchant]

I mean, to me, they should have just admitted it. That's a mess up. You have to tell your witnesses about the rule of sequestration. If you mess that up, we've all messed that up. It is an honest mistake. If they did make an honest mistake, just admit it. Just admit it. I'm sorry. Instead, they're just this smoke and mirrors, like, oh, well, they're being disrespectful.

[Mark Eiglarch]

And I'm curious, Matt, did you ever have it out with judges? I mean, I would think that they all loved you and admired you and supported you.

[Matt Murphy]

Oh, yeah, I wish. Yeah, they all.

[Mark Eiglarch]

They.

[Matt Murphy]

They bake me cookies every time I go into court. Listen, even now when I go in la, nobody knows me in LA county compared to, like, Orange county, which is where I was a da and it's like I stepped in dog crap in the parking lot most of the time. No, we watched that. We all had ptsd. I saw the both of you, like, two real trial attorneys on here with me. We've all been there. We've all been yelled at. And look, the judge is right. They screwed up. And they turn around, try to blame the prosecutor. But can I do a weird parallel just real quick? You know, on. In the gang world, and there's a lot of rappers that come from that world. You know, on the Tupac Shakur murder, there's a famous video from a. From the casino. I don't know if you guys remember that. There's, like 20 guys that. It's a big fight, it's a big melee. And then there's the shooting between the two cars where Tupac and Suge Knight are both shot. Going back on that, if you look at that, the gang lifestyle, almost every guy in that video, these young men, they're all dead now or in prison. Every single one of them. And now it's literally down to every one of them has either been killed or they've done 10 years or more in California State Prison. And it's just. This is an interesting parallel. The gang life goes nowhere. But death or jail, it really. And it's. You see it happening again now. These kids are young, and that was a goofy photo. His hair is silly. He looks like, you know, Sideshow Bob from the Simpsons. But that's a young man. It's easy.

[Mark Eiglarch]

Judgmental fella. Old guy.

[Matt Murphy]

Yeah, sorry.

[Mark Eiglarch]

I'm with you. And for all the kids watching. Yeah, don't join gangs. Great message, Matthew. We have some great topics that we're going to continue to talk about in just a moment. We're going to talk about a lawsuit where somebody sued Reese's Pumpkins because somehow the picture didn't match what they got on the inside. And we're also going to talk about the case of poisoned Halloween candy. It's going to be really interesting. Stick with us. Remember, you can always email us. We all love to read your comments. We actually do read this stuff. Email us@mktruecrimelmaycare media.com Let me give you the short version. Mktruechrimelmaycare media.com Couldn't do it shorter. We'll be back in just a moment.

[Andy Cohen]

Hey everyone, it's me, Andy Cohen. Buckle up because I have a podcast called Daddy Diaries where I take my listeners on an as it happened recount of life as a daddy to two kids, dozens of housewives and the occasional fella. Listen to the Daddy Diaries to hear about my high highs and low lows of parenting, housewives, drama, and so much more. Daddy Diaries available wherever you listen to podcasts.

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[Mark Eiglarch]

Is the packaging for Reese's Pumpkins misleading? A question that I ask almost daily and I bug my wife about it all day long. Really important topic. Well, that was the crux of a class action lawsuit against Candymaker Hershey. No, really. Some lawyer in Florida, thank you for giving us more crap for people to use against us, filed a lawsuit saying that the picture on the outside of the wrapper picture like a pumpkin with a nice smile, Right? And then you go to the inside and it's some blob that's loosely shaped like the item on the outside, but doesn't really look like it.

[Matt Murphy]

Okay.

[Mark Eiglarch]

I mean, is there an argument there? It's kind of like, listen, the photos that they have of burgers in any fast food place never look like the burger that I get. So you're really going to have a lot of lawsuits. Okay. But somebody did file a lawsuit and I'll toss it to you. Matt, your thoughts on this case?

[Matt Murphy]

You know, I'm sure these are fine lawyers, these plaintiffs attorneys. I don't want to throw any shade, but I read this. I had to read it twice because I couldn't Believe somebody certified a class on this. So they're trying to allege damages because the candy wasn't spooky enough. Literally. I don't know how you make a Reese's peanut butter cup spooky. And look, there are crazy things that happen in our legal system. And again, I'm sure they have a great theory. I didn't understand it myself again, but one of the things about our system, guys, is, and we see this over and over again and sometimes it's in the form of a prosecutor has lost their mind on a case and over filed or charged incorrectly or sometimes it seems like it's these plaintiffs cases. Sanity, usually somewhere along the line in our process tends to eventually come to light and put an end to these things. And this federal judge shut this thing down saying that how do you establish damages on something like this? And they dismissed it.

[Mark Eiglarch]

Well, it's not done, Ashley. This thing is not over. We have to keep talking about it because the judge, it was Melissa Damien, she's a US District judge, said that the lawsuit failed to show that the lack of detail of the chocolate and peanut butter candies, such as missing mouths or eyes or ghosts weren't like detailed, caused them economic harm. But apparently they're going to refile the lawsuit and allege how it did impact them. Can they do it?

[Ashley Merchant]

They can do it. But you know, this is one of those times, and I hate awarding attorneys fees, but this is one of those times that attorneys fees might need to be awarded. And you know, always say this is why we can't have nice things. This is why we can't have a fast and efficient court system because we have stuff like this. These lawyers kind of need to go back and remember, even though it's the last part of a case, it's the most important part of a civil case. Damages. There's no damages here. How are you damaged? It had chocolate, it had peanut butter. That's good for me.

[Mark Eiglarch]

Well, I'll make the argument, Matt. Let me just try. And this is kind of what the defense is saying. Okay. You used deceptive advertising, right? They, they put out an image, whether it be a fast food place, whether it be Reese's, this is what you're going to get. So you relinquish your hard earned dollars and you say I want that. And then you take the COVID off and you don't get that. You get something very different. Isn't that kind of fraud in a way, false advertising, deceptive? Matt.

[Matt Murphy]

We learned a term in law school called a right without A remedy. Right. And what the attorney said in this is, well, my clients paid a premium for it, which I think means they paid regular price. So you buy it, and it's like, so they're disappointing. What price do we put on a disappointing Halloween chocolate pumpkin? And the answer to that is, I think any federal judge, you know, who's saying, it's like Ashley said, that's perfectly put. This is why we can't have nice things, guys. And this is why we get made fun of at holiday parties that we're coming up to as lawyers. This is one of those that we. In my view, we look at our shoes and maybe. I think maybe they're looking for a settlement, perhaps. Again, not.

[Mark Eiglarch]

Not.

[Matt Murphy]

Not saying that there was anything nefarious here, but come on now, guys.

[Mark Eiglarch]

Well, I'm gonna put Ashley on the spot. I did to you before, Matt. I'll put her on the spot. All right, Matt, here's what you have to do. Ashley.

[Ashley Merchant]

Okay, I'm ready.

[Mark Eiglarch]

You have to make a strong argument with a straight face that there are actual economic damages as a result of them not giving what they promised on the wrapper. Go.

[Ashley Merchant]

I got it. Okay. So there's a little girl who has had these candies every single year. I'm going to use the Christmas bell shape because she had those every year in her stocking, and she remembered her dad spending his hard on those. And every single year, it was a Christmas memory. It meant more than anything to her. And then all of a sudden, she opened that Christmas stocking bell, and it wasn't a bell, it was just a blob of chocolate. And she cried. And her dad had spent all of his hard earned money on those bells, and he wanted that money back so he could go and he could find her an actual bell.

[Mark Eiglarch]

How much can we give you? How much? Matt and I are writing a check personally. That was very compelling. All right.

[Ashley Merchant]

That's all I could come up with.

[Mark Eiglarch]

It was pretty good. It was good. It was pretty good. All right, keeping with the Halloween theme, we're moving on to a guy that I disdain. Not just because he killed his precious offspring, but he also killed my Halloween experience when I was a kid. I know you guys can relate to this, okay? There was nothing for me better than Halloween when I understood that concept. I mean, mom and dad, we could just go to people's homes, say two words, trick, treat. And then they're going to give me the one thing that I long for. Not money for unicef, but candy. Candy is going to give me Candy. I dream about it and then stay up late. Right. It was the greatest thing ever. Until. Yeah, but the candy could be poisoned. Do you remember hearing that? Both of you, do you remember hearing that?

[Andy Cohen]

Oh, yeah.

[Ashley Merchant]

Poison and razor blades.

[Mark Eiglarch]

Right, right. And, and, and so it made us paranoid. It was horrible. Right. So let's talk about who is responsible for that. Ryan Clark O'. Brien. The year was 1974, Harris county in Texas. It's outside of Houston. This guy's with his wife and his two children. He seemingly seemed like a normal fella, an optician, a deacon at his church. His financial situation was problematic. He was kind of dire. So he was about $100,000 in debt at the time. Okay, there's your motive, Matt. Right. So to get out of difficulties, he concocted this scheme and he bought poison and he put the poison in the pixie sticks. He bought a life insurance policy for 30 grand for each of his children. I'm gonna let you, Ashley, tell us then what he did. This horrible person, tell us what he did.

[Ashley Merchant]

It's awful. And you know, I'm generally opposed to the death penalty, but when I listen to these facts and I think about it, I think, oh, you know what, that's one of those instances where I think I might be able to bend on it. So he took his son and he took his 8 year old son, along with some of his son's friends, trick or treating, and he gave him a pixy stick that was laced with poison.

[Mark Eiglarch]

And.

[Ashley Merchant]

And then his son. It's just, it may. I mean, it gives me goosebumps to even think about. His son started throwing up almost immediately. He took him to the bathroom and he held him and within an hour his son was dead. It's unimaginable how anybody could do that, especially for money. But that's what he did. He took the stand in his own defense and denied doing it. I don't know who he seemed to think he could blame for this, but he was adamant the entire time up until he was actually finally executed that he had not done this. And it was clear he had done it. He had taken out the life insurance policy. He had bought all of the, you know, all of the mixtures that he was going to use to poison his child. And it's just disgusting. How can you do that to your child? But so then, you know, what's, what really just compounds it even more is then he started suing over the lethal injection practices. But he took a little bit different approach. He sued the saying that the FDA had not approved. Now listen to this. Had not approved the drugs they were using for the purpose to kill him.

[Mark Eiglarch]

We'll talk about that in a moment. I still wanna stick right now with the actual case itself. Matt, you had to determine who should live or die many times, right? You were involved in that decision as a prosecutor.

[Matt Murphy]

Yes, many times.

[Mark Eiglarch]

Okay, so here's the question. The Supreme Court has said death is different. Meaning you don't just give it out to anyone who kills while murdering is horrible. Not all first degree murder cases warrant the death penalty. You shouldn't go after everybody to seek the death penalty in first degree murder cases. I ask you, based upon these facts, would you have sought the death penalty?

[Matt Murphy]

Yeah. So I sat on the committee in Orange county for 15 years where we would make the formal recommendation on every special circ homicide and we sought it. Of the cases that qualified for the viewer. That's not all murders. That's only special circumstance murders. We sought it in less than 4% of the cases that came before us. So it is like the two fundamental things. It's got to be no real doubt that the person did it. Like. No, you are 100% convinced. And it's got to be genuinely awful. It has to shock the room. And our committee of experienced homicide prosecutors who've done at least two capital cases, that was the threshold to get onto our committee. And this one, Mark, I'll tell you, I'm with Ashley. It is. There's nothing ameliorating or mitigating about this at all that I was able to read. This is one where this is the worst. The fricking worst. And one of the things, I think that by sitting in the bathroom with his son, he knew what he had done. He knew his son was dying. He knew exactly what the poison was. And he sat there holding him instead of taking him to an emergency room watching his son die. This guy has no soul. I hate to say this, guys, but this is one that. Not only would we have sought it in a heartbeat, Mark, I could have watched this guy get executed and frigging eat popcorn as they did. This is so.

[Mark Eiglarch]

It's one of the hold, Ashley. It took the jurors 46 minutes. I mean, separate the time that it takes to pick a four person bathroom breaks and eating lunch.

[Ashley Merchant]

Right? That's it.

[Mark Eiglarch]

This was a slam dunk, right?

[Ashley Merchant]

Right. They probably took one vote. I mean, seriously, 45 minutes, 47 minutes. That's one vote. Like you said. I mean, the time to order the pizza on the government's dime. The time to vote on a four person. Everybody use the one bathroom. Bathroom. You know, all 12 jurors. I mean, they literally had no discussion on this. And I'm not surprised. I mean, you take killing a child in and of itself is. Is one of the worst things that can happen. But having a parent kill their child when they have that responsibility, that is just. I mean, that is someone that just doesn't deserve to live.

[Mark Eiglarch]

And he was given the death penalty. So the viewers know that in fact, it was Halloween night of 1982, that the court ordered that the sentence be carried out because it took seven years for appeals, which actually, nowadays that would be amazing. I mean, seven years. Only seven years, right? It is 10 years to put him to death. March 31, 1984. 10 years. That's not bad. People are around to watch that. It's not 20, 30 years later. Matt, apparently, you know, it's not good to use lethal injection. He argued that. Ashley talked about it earlier. What were your thoughts upon his defense team for raising that issue and what was the specific issue?

[Matt Murphy]

Well, the appellate lawyers on that, as we know, their job is to basically throw everything they can at the process and try their hardest, as desperate as it may sound, to get, you know, to delay the execution, to put it off. And that's been very successful in our federal system. Kind of outlandish claims. I mean, whether that's outlandish or not, I don't know. But it is kind of ironic, right? It's like it's not FDA approved to kill people. But there's been a lot of success with those drugs and the pushback. The death penalty is very, very emotional. I am very conservative on it. I've personally done eight of them. So I've put people on death row in California. But you have to be very, very selective. And there can be truly no doubt that the person did it. But. Yeah, so it's part of the process here in the ninth Circuit. Mark, I'm sure wouldn't surprise you to learn we see even crazier claims than that. You wouldn't believe some of the stuff. And sometimes it works.

[Mark Eiglarch]

Okay. Ashley, would you take a case like that? People are asking me, are there cases you wouldn't take? Could you defend this guy and let me just entice you, he can meet your large retainer fee. Ashley, are you taking this case?

[Ashley Merchant]

It's not that. On death penalty cases, and I've been. I've handled death penalty cases. I've represented people that are accused of doing and have done really Awful things.

[Mark Eiglarch]

Me too.

[Ashley Merchant]

And, you know, I'm against the death penalty generally. This is one of those cases that would probably keep me up at night. But I do firmly believe that everybody's entitled to a constitutional defense. And, you know, so in that respect, I would be able to defend him, but it would be very difficult. And I would have to make sure, because, you know, with death penalty cases, as a lawyer, you have to make sure that that point in your life that you can emotionally handle it, because he's probably going to be executed, and he was executed. And so, you know, as a lawyer, you have to be able to handle that because we suffer vicarious trauma. We suffer it all the time, and particularly with death penalty cases. So, you know, I would have had to make sure that I was able to handle all of those issues at the time. And. And, you know, what you're doing, really, it's like an oncology doctor, whenever I talk to the other death penalty defenders that I know, we all view it as you are treating a patient who has terminal cancer, and your job is to keep them alive as long as possible. And so that's really why they, you know, these lawsuits, you see, I mean, that is your job. And a lot of times I don't want to be an oncology doctor. It is depressing. And so you have to make sure as a lawyer that you can handle that level of trauma.

[Mark Eiglarch]

And, you know what bothered me the most, bothered me the most is I'd have to look through the discovery. I'd have to learn in detail what he did to his precious child. I'd have to think about how quickly the child died versus not now. Why does that matter? It wouldn't in the guilt phase, but it would matter in the penalty phase. Did the child suffer? What did the child go through? The last thing I want to do is think about that. Okay, thank you for that, guys. We're going to move on in just a moment, and we're going to talk about closing arguments. I love that segment. To hear what's on your mind. And also we'll take your questions. We'll be back in just a moment.

[Andy Cohen]

Hey, everyone, it's me, Andy Cohen. Buckle up, because I have a podcast called Daddy Diaries where I take my listeners on an as it happened recount of life as a daddy to two kids, dozens of housewives, and the occasional fella. Listen to the Daddy Diaries to hear about my high highs and low lows of parenting, housewives, drama, and so much more. Daddy Diaries available wherever you listen to podcasts.

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[Mark Eiglarch]

All right, so coming up in just a moment, my favorite part of MK True Crime, our closing arguments and your mail. But first, let's talk about our friend Megyn Kelly, who's going on tour. I'm excited about that. I mean, I'm glad that she asked me to join her. It's gonna be cool to join her in Miami at the Knight Center. Anyone watching this from South Florida? I'll be there with my wife. Apparently they're gonna have us do something at the very beginning of this thing. I have no idea if I'll be on a unicycle juggling balls. I have no idea what she's gonna ask me to do, but I'll be there. I'll shake some hands and meet some folks. What about you guys? Are you going to any of her, any of our tour dates? Ashley?

[Ashley Merchant]

Yeah, I can't wait. I'm going, I think the day after you. Saturday, November 8, in Duluth, which is actually Atlanta. It's a suburb of Atlanta. I'll be there with Phil Holloway and we're super excited for that. So I hope everybody, you know what.

[Mark Eiglarch]

You'Re doing on stage yet.

[Ashley Merchant]

I was thinking that I would be doing handstands, but you know what you were saying with the unicycle? That kind of sounds fun too.

[Mark Eiglarch]

All right, and you, Matt, you can do your stand up routine. What are you going to do?

[Matt Murphy]

Yeah. Yeah. So November 21st, I'll be at the Honda center in Anaheim and I'm going to be out with our fellow contributor, my buddy Mark Garagos. Mark and I go way, way Back. And when we were talking about it before Mark, Mark said, yeah, it's going to be. She's like the rolling stones in 1980. A lot of people have forgotten, but when they toured Southern California, Prince opened for them and he got booed off the stage. And I have these nightmares of Mark and I. Nobody's going to want to see our silly mugs. Right, Megan? And you're going to rather get in the hook that pulls us off the stage. Rotten fruit. Or maybe we'll get booed off like, like Prince. But I'm looking forward to it. Huge honor to be able to do that, I think.

[Mark Eiglarch]

Same here. And I was sharing the same feelings, like they're not there to see me. So any minute I speak. Right. Like next. Nobody wants the opening act. All right, cool. So we got some mail this week. Go ahead, Ashley, and I'll have you present that.

[Ashley Merchant]

Yeah. So it's a question for Matt, actually. It's from Michelle. She said, matt, I've just finished the book of murder. She absolutely loved it. Thank you for allowing us. Yes, that's pretty cool. Thank you for allowing us to hear in length how you went behind all the investigation and convictions and things like that. What she really wants to know is about these cases. She's followed a couple of cases, but she wants to know if there's going to be a follow up book.

[Matt Murphy]

Well, thank you, Michelle. It makes my day that you read it and you liked it. Yes, as a matter of fact, I just signed with Disney last week, in fact. So there's going to be book number two. I prosecuted 14 serial killers during my time in homicide and it's going to be about basically same format where only one of them, the Dating Game killer Rodney Alcala, was in my first book. So I'm going to take everybody through my journey and the things I learned. I went into the unit thinking I knew everything about serial killers and I knew nothing. And I learned a bunch along the way and I think people are really going to enjoy it. I think it's going to be interesting for everyone and I really appreciate the question. So hopefully we'll have it out. Our manuscript will be done in May and then publishing soon thereafter. So I'll be reading the Audible myself again. Yeah. So thank you.

[Mark Eiglarch]

That's exciting. Isn't that nice?

[Ashley Merchant]

Congratulations.

[Mark Eiglarch]

To actually write a book and have people read it and appreciate it. That's wonderful, Matt.

[Ashley Merchant]

Yeah. And she said thank you for the respect you showed each victim's family. So she really loved it.

[Matt Murphy]

Thanks.

[Mark Eiglarch]

Very nice. All right, well, it's time for closing argument. Okay, ladies first. Go, Ash.

[Ashley Merchant]

All right, well, so I've been talking about different stages of the criminal case. And, you know, we started with pretrial publicity. We talked about pretrial police statements, whether you should talk to the police, what you should say, and the process for bond release. Today I want to talk about accomplice liability. I want to do that because of a case we talked about earlier today, Alicia Andrews case, the case in Florida, and because I can use it sort of as an example. This is part of the charging decision. You know, when the police decide and the prosecutors get together and they decide, who are they going to charge? How broad of a net are they going to cast? And if you look at Alicia's case, you know, she didn't do the actual murder, but yet she's sitting there charged. So I want to talk, and let's see if I can, in a minute or less, sort of explain some of the most complex legal concepts that we learn in law school. So I'm going to do my best. So if you're charged with conspiracy or you're charged with complicity, basically you're being charged for doing something someone else did. Every state has it. But you didn't do it. You're being charged for something that someone else did. The law treats. And a lot of people don't understand this. A lot of clients don't understand this when I tell them, if you were an accomplice, the law treats you the same as it does if you committed the crime. It doesn't require that you agree ahead of time to commit a crime. It doesn't require anything like that. All it requires is that you helped. You did that in words, you did that in acts, you did that in encouragement. And so that's what we saw here with Alicia Andrews, also conspiracy. So you can be charged as an accomplice party to a crime. There's different terms for that, but you can also be charged under a conspiracy, which is what she's charged with. What is that? That requires an agreement between two people to commit a crime. That's it. That and an overt act. But the overt act just has to be in furtherance of whatever you already agreed to. So the agreement itself is actually the unlawful act. So the next thing I want to talk about is I want to talk about felony murder, and I'm going to tile this together with Alicia Andrews. So felony murder, that is when someone else actually when. When you commit a different crime than the one you're actually charged with. But a murder happens. So let's say that you're stalking someone. Okay? So in the case of Alicia Andrews, you're. You're. You're trying to stalk someone, and in the process of stalking them, they die. You can be charged with felony murder, which carries the same penalty as malice murder. So let's put it all together with Alicia. So she's charged as an accomplice because she aided and abetted in their theory. She was there. She was the lookout. She was looking around. She was helping track. Okay, so aided and abetted this stalking crime. Okay, so we've got that. Then we've got the conspiracy because she agreed with her boyfriend to do that. And then we've got the felony murder, because during the stalking, this murder actually happened. So you've got someone who didn't shoot, you've got someone who didn't agree to shoot, you've got someone who didn't actually even conspire to shoot, but yet they can be charged with felony murder and they actually could get the death penalty, would they? Probably not, because they don't have all those aggravators. But could they? Yes. And she is facing a life sentence. So I don't like those crimes. So I just wanted to give a little rant about it and give a little bit of information about how those crimes are, because people don't understand it. They don't know how you can be charged if you didn't actually commit the murder.

[Mark Eiglarch]

Well done, Professor Merchant. Thank you. That was excellent. Matt, I'm ready for your closing argument.

[Matt Murphy]

Okay, so a little bit about Halloween for me, guys. I am a huge sci fi nerd, and I really, ever since I was a little kid, I've loved Halloween. And we watch these slasher movies, and they're entertaining, whether it's Halloween or Friday the 13th, whatever it is, it's really good Halloween fare. And I want to blend that in a little bit with some of the fabric of America for the last few years. Fortunately, serial killers are very, very rare. And that's what those movies all depict. Serial killers. And a lot of times there's a psychosexual component to it. There are also rapists like Ted Bundy, like Rodney Alcala, that I prosecuted like others. But the job that detectives have to do in unsorting these, because some of these, as rare as they are, they are real. The FBI estimates that there are between 25 and 50 active serial killers in the United States at any given time, which, if you think about it, 340 million people in the population, that's still really scary. And they are the consummate interspecies predator. And we need good cops to track them down. And the earlier they catch them, they're going to keep doing it until they're caught. It means innocent people will survive and they will live. And we've heard a lot of stuff about defunding the police. And a lot of folks don't understand that when they cut from police departments, they cut from three areas. They cut from education programs like keeping kids out of gangs or keeping kids off drugs. They cut from training, and they cut from specialized units like homicide and sexual assault. The last place they cut are the 911 patrol officers who respond to. And those are the ones that everybody was so mad at a few years ago. So just remember as you watch those movies, enjoy it. I love Halloween. But remember, psycho killers are real, and we must have good cops that are well trained to catch them and make sure that they don't get our loved ones next. That's my rant. And with that, I hope everybody has an awesome Halloween.

[Mark Eiglarch]

Thank you very much, Matt. Much appreciated. And here's my closing argument. I want to speak to those who are going through personal challenges right now. Even if it is real rough, even if you can't see your way through good times, I assure you, this too shall pass. Things will get better. My wife and I learned that lesson about 25 years ago. We were thrilled to get pregnant soon after we got married. I was so excited about being a father for the first time. I would kiss her belly every single night before we went to bed. What should have been a routine sonogram about halfway through our pregnancy left us feeling devastated. We were told that the heartbeat is normal, but our son's brain was growing through his skull. They told us it was encephalocele, a rare neurological tube disorder that affects a fraction of 1% of all newborns. Our child, our first son, would not live outside of the womb. There were no other options. Terminating our pregnancy halfway through ruined us personally. We both were just not in a good place. We fought, we argued. We didn't know how to get back to a happy place. I didn't see my way through this whole thing. In desperation, I brought home something that we didn't need. A yellow lab puppy. My wife named her star with two Rs because one wasn't enough for her. This dog tore up our house we had just remodeled. We didn't need a yellow lab puppy, but all the love that we had for our son we put on that dog, and things were great. We got pregnant again. There was happiness and joy. I remember looking over at Star gnawing on a softball that inadvertently had landed into our yard because the neighbor's daughter played for her high school team. I said, look how passionate she is about ripping off the leather from that softball. I wish I was half as happy as that dog. Later that day, we had to take the dog into the vet. I'm glad we did. The doctor said the dog needed surgery right away. You see, she had ingested the entire leather portion of that softball and couldn't digest it. She couldn't get it out. I will never forget the noise that my wife made when the doctor called her and said Star didn't make it through surgery. We were back to square one again. We were unhappy. There was conflict. It was dark, and we couldn't see our way through it. Well, fast forward 25 years. We had other challenges like that. But we've got now three healthy, spectacular, wonderful kids. We've had a number of dogs since then, including our current Golden Doodles. Peace and Quiet. Yes, we actually name them Peace and Quiet. The answer is no. We have no peace nor quiet in our home. They wake us up at the crack of dawn and incessantly bark. But we don't look at ourselves as victims. Many people like to look at themselves as victims. We don't. We're not victims. We used to think, why is this happening to us? But instead, today, when we have those challenges, we say, we're so grateful that this is happening for us. You see, through our pain, we've grown. There have been lessons that we've learned. Love, gratitude, compassion, appreciation. The list goes on and on. So for those going through a dark time, this too shall pass. You will get through it. I promise you. If you want it to get better, it will. And for all those times that there was darkness in my life, I didn't like it at the time. I still don't want it in the future. But for all those times where I had growing opportunities, I am profoundly grateful. Okay, thank you guys for joining us. Ashley and Matt, I really appreciate you guys. You are phenomenal MK True Crime contributors. And it has been a privilege spending time with you this afternoon. I'm extremely grateful. I wish you both the very best, and we want to hear from you guys. If you have suggestions, questions, stories, if you want to criticize, that's fine, too. That's your right. Go to mktruecrimelmaycaremedia.com easy for me to say. Let me say it again, mk true crimeevilmaycaremedia.com have a wonderful Halloween and I hope you all choose to have a wonderful day.

[Andy Cohen]

Hey everyone, it's me, Andy Cohen. Buckle up because I have a podcast called Daddy Diaries where I take my listeners on an, as it happened, recount of life as a daddy to two kids, dozens of housewives, and the occasional fella. Listen to the Daddy Diaries to hear about my high highs and low lows of parenting, housewives, drama, and so much more. Daddy Diaries available wherever you listen to podcasts.