In The Well LIVE from CrimeCon, with Detective Moses Castillo

Summary

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MK True Crime: "In The Well" LIVE from CrimeCon with Detective Moses Castillo

Podcast: MK True Crime
Host: MK Media
Episode Date: June 5, 2026
Notable Guests: Mark Geragos (defense attorney), Matt (former DA/host), Moses Castillo (retired LAPD detective/private investigator)

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Episode Overview

This special live episode of "In The Well" was recorded at CrimeCon in Las Vegas before an audience of true crime fans. Host Matt is joined by legendary defense attorney Mark Geragos and, in the latter half, veteran LAPD detective Moses Castillo. The episode dives into real-world perspectives from the criminal justice system—exploring prosecutor-defense dynamics, landmark cases, and the current state of law enforcement and criminal prosecution. The tone is candid, insightful, and filled with stories that illuminate both the adversarial and collegial sides of the law.

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Key Discussion Points and Insights

Setting the Stage at CrimeCon

• [01:05]
  • Matt opens the live show, introduces the panel, and describes the unique, highly engaged atmosphere at CrimeCon:
    "We're in CrimeCon in Las Vegas with a bunch of really cool true crime aficionados. And they all, everybody gets it."
• Mark Geragos shares intrigue about the level of public interest and security at his earlier Scott Peterson presentation.

Working Relationships in the Justice System

• [01:57]
  • Matt and Mark reflect on their decades of working "across the aisle"—the camaraderie, mutual respect, and the "dying breed" of old-school, highly ethical adversaries in law:
    • Matt: “He's an old school criminal defense lawyer...will fight viciously for his clients and then go out into the hallway and ask you about your weekend.”
    • Mark: “It's a dying breed from the prosecutor's standpoint.”

Iconic Cases and Forensic Evolution

• [02:55]
  • Tom and Jackie Hawks case:
    • Matt recounts the pressure of handling a high-profile missing persons/homicide as a prosecutor and the use of cutting-edge side scan sonar in evidence searches.
    • Mark's prescient advice about technical evidence ("You're not going to find the bodies, and if you get enough evidence anyway, don't let that stop you.") proved pivotal.
  • [05:01] Update on the Hooker case and advances in technology:
    • Mark discusses the evolution from early cell tower triangulation to modern GPS and sonar in investigations.
    • "Look how far we've come in 25 years." (Mark, 06:05)

The Perils of Defendants Talking

• [07:09]
  • Both lawyers agree that giving statements is rarely in a defendant's interest:
    • Matt: "There is nothing better for a prosecutor than the guy who just keeps talking."
    • Mark: "How many times have you told defendants, 'Shut the F up'...it's never good."

The Role and Responsibility of Prosecutors vs. Defense

• [12:36]
  • Mark and Matt contrast the ethics and obligations of prosecutors versus defense attorneys:
    • Matt: "If you entertain a subjective doubt as to anything...do not pass go and dump it, whatever it is."
    • Mark: "The defense lawyer does not have that obligation. The exact opposite. The defense lawyer's duty, zealously defend."

Real-life Ethics and Case Dispositions

• [14:55]
  • Anecdotes about mutually respected attorneys and unwritten rules of professionalism, e.g., "People v. Green" as the go-to phrase for a continuance.
  • Examples of dropping or dismissing cases based on new evidence—even mid-trial—and the importance of integrity in both prosecution and defense.

Investigators’ Critical Role

• [19:22]
  • Shout-outs to exceptional investigators who've moved from law enforcement to private work (e.g., Dave Byington, Keith Krelman), highlighting their impact and diligence.

Transition from DA to Defense and Bar Fight Case

• [20:20]
  • Matt’s story about a bar fight case demonstrates how details (missing minutes from surveillance) can make or break a prosecution.
  • Darren Wyatt’s investigator skills found missing video evidence exonerating the defendant, showing how critical and overlooked details can be.

The Pitfalls of Hidden or Mishandled Evidence

• [23:32]
  • Mark tells how, in the Scott Peterson trial, pivotal context was almost missed due to a detective omitting a witness’s statement:
    • "I spent two weeks wasting my time on a hair in the boat when Lacy was in the boat. How crazy is that?"

Defunding Police, Prosecutorial Ethics, and Victims’ Advocacy

• [28:43]
  • Moses Castillo discusses the effect of Los Angeles policies, "defund the police," and the resulting difficulties for units like sex crimes:
    • "The first unit that goes...is sex crimes...what they're doing is they're advocating on behalf of child molesters and frigging rapists." (Matt, 29:41)

Victims, "Prosecution Policies," and High-Profile Prosecutors

• [29:54]
  • Candid discussion of the challenges of prosecuting and defending high-stakes cases in the current environment, including the controversial policies of DA George Gascon and the impact on crime victims.

Legal Talent in Los Angeles

• [30:11]
  • Mutual respect for each other’s trial skills, with Moses commending Mark:
    • "I had the honor to go against Mark Geragos, the infamous celebrity defense criminal attorney, on a case involving a USC student who was accused of murder. And he did a great job defending her." (Moses Castillo, 26:52)

The "David" Case: Prosecutorial Strategy

• [30:45]
  • Details about handling circumstantial evidence, the value of a skilled prosecutor, and how unforced errors by the defense can be exploited.
  • Mark on the catastrophes that occur if you "walk out on the plank" without knowing your file.

The Realities of Jailhouse Codes

• [33:48]
  • Mark explains prison hierarchy regarding murderers versus sex offenders:
    • "Murder, if you're in custody, is actually like a badge of distinction. Child porn or child element pedophilia...you might as well, you're going to get shanked."

Infamous Disposal Decisions

• [34:36]
  • Discussing bizarre choices by defendants, Matt quips, "If they made good decisions, they wouldn't need you."
  • Mark: "That's right. And if they thought like the rest of us, they wouldn't be murderers in the first place."

Memorable CrimeCon Anecdote

• [35:44]
  • Moses pranks Mark with a live phone call while on stage, believing it to be a call from Lyle Menendez—adds levity and insider fun.

Ending Reflections

• [36:40]
  • Closing with gratitude for the audience, affirming the demand for these candid, inside stories.
  • Mark jests about the lawyerly wardrobe divide, underscoring the show's informal, authentic spirit.

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Notable Quotes and Memorable Moments

• "Everybody gets it. People want to learn, they want to understand."
  — Matt, [01:19]

• On defense-prosecutor camaraderie:
  "Mark will fight viciously for his clients and then go out into the hallway and ask you about your weekend."
  — Matt, [01:57]

• Advice on forensic searches:
  "They [did side scan sonar] in Lacey Peterson's case. We never found her. You're not going to find the bodies. And if you get enough evidence anyway, don't let that stop you."
  — Mark, [03:10]

• On defendant interviews:
  "There is nothing better for a prosecutor than the guy who just keeps talking."
  — Matt, [07:09]

• Obligations contrast:
  "The defense lawyer does not have that obligation. The defense lawyer's duty: zealously defend. You're not there to convict. You're not there to do the prosecution's bidding."
  — Mark, [14:07]

• On ethical case dumping:
  “If you entertain a subjective doubt as to anything…you have a sacrosanct ethical obligation as a lawyer, as a prosecutor to go in that day, do not pass, go and dump it, whatever it is.”
  — Matt, [13:33]

• On missing evidence:
  "I spent two weeks wasting my time on a hair in the boat when Lacy was in the boat. How crazy is that?"
  — Mark, [24:29]

• Caseloads and courtroom lore:
  “Rule one: continuance. People v. Green.”
  — Mark, [15:36]

• Jailhouse dangers:
  "Murder, if you're in custody, is actually like a badge of distinction. Child porn or child element pedophilia...you're going to get shanked. Your shelf life is built on..."
  — Mark, [33:48]

• On irrational client actions:
  "If they made good decisions, they wouldn't need you."
  — Mark, [34:36]

• CrimeCon prank:
  “He’s up there…says he’s expecting a spiritual phone call. I call and they get all excited. Is it him? He goes, no. He hangs up on me.”
  — Moses, [35:44]

• On LA defense lawyers:
  "If you were in trouble tomorrow in LA county, is there anybody besides Mark Geragos you want to hire to defend you?"
  — Matt, [30:11]

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• [01:05] – Episode welcome, live audience intro, and panel backgrounds
• [02:55] – High-profile missing persons/homicides, side scan sonar technology
• [05:01] – Technology and GPS in modern investigations; Hooker case
• [07:09] – Why defense lawyers tell clients to "shut the F up"
• [12:36] – Prosecutor vs. defense ethics, sleeping at night
• [14:55] – Professional codes, “People v. Green,” and mutual respect
• [19:22] – Impact of talented investigators and their transition to private sector
• [20:20] – Matt’s story: how missed video evidence exonerated a defendant
• [23:32] – When evidence is hidden, consequences for the justice process
• [28:43] – State of LAPD, defunding, and the effect on sexual crimes units
• [30:11] – LA legal community and trusted defense lawyers
• [30:45] – "David Case": prosecutorial moves and risks of not knowing your case
• [33:48] – Jailhouse codes and dangers for certain offenses
• [34:36] – Absurd disposal attempts and defense reality checks
• [35:44] – CrimeCon phone prank story
• [36:40] – Live wrap-up and reflections on audience engagement

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Conclusion

This episode provides a rare, unfiltered look into the realities of criminal law—blending humor, war stories, and hard-earned wisdom from decades in the trenches. Whether tackling the latest forensic tech, the ethics of prosecution and defense, law enforcement challenges, or simply reminiscing about courtroom lore, the guests offer an insider's view that’s as educational as it is entertaining. True crime fans and legal enthusiasts alike will appreciate the camaraderie and candor on display.

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Transcript

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[Matt]

Welcome to in the well, this is our first, first live podcast we've ever done. I want to give everybody a little bit of a background here.

[Mark Geragos]

Why don't you kind of, is there any way to just kind of flip so people can see what we're doing this in front of?

[Matt]

Yeah, this is because it's, this is a lot of fun. So we're, we're in crime con in Las Vegas with a bunch of really cool true crime aficionados. And they all, everybody gets it. It's one of the things I love about this is that people want to learn, they want to understand.

[Mark Geragos]

I will tell you what was. I just raced over here after doing a presentation on Scott Peterson to thousands of people and they thought that it was going to be, that they had extra security. They thought it was going to be a problem, you know, because of that. But people are fascinated here.

[Matt]

So let me, let me give a little quick background story on Mark Ergas. First. Mark and I have known each other for decades. Mark and I used to do cases together before I'd ever done anything that anybody paid attention to. And he was already pretty famous. But Mark and I, we, we squared off many years. And he's one of those guys that he's an old school criminal defense lawyer, which means Mark will fight viciously for his clients and then go out into the hallway and ask you about your weekend. And it's one of the things I always. There's that, that's a. A dying breed in the criminal offense.

[Mark Geragos]

No, you're not kidding. It's a dying breed from the prosecutor's standpoint.

[Matt]

The only thing I didn't like about Mark was that he's so damn persuasive. I would always drive home that day knowing that Mark would have picked my frigging pocket because he would have convinced me to do something. He was always right. We always, we almost always worked out a deal.

[Mark Geragos]

We had a. We had a very good track record of coming to results.

[Matt]

The problem is Mark is too damn rational. And, and so he always had the angle that I had a. When, when he was finished with Scott Peterson, Mark got an education in a thing called side scan sonar and looking for bodies for reasons that we can all remember from that case. And I had. This was when Tom and Jackie Hawks were missing. It was like the case of the week in America. Everybody was talking about it.

[Mark Geragos]

There's been some documentaries or focus on

[Matt]

Dateline or Dayline 2020 did that. It was, it was kind of, it was covered. But at the time it was this really nice couple that was missing. Nobody knew where they were. And I'm walking into the courthouse and when you're a DA on that case, the pressure is immense because they're missing. The issue is in doubt. The investigation is going nowhere fast. And I'm feeling this, the pressure, and it gets pretty dark. I got great detectives and I'm walking into the courthouse. My friend Mark is walking out of the courthouse and he stops me and he's like, hey, how you doing? And. And we have exchange pleasantries. Mark's heading to his car and he stops again and he goes, hey, I got one quick question. You guys gonna do side scan sonar looking for those bodies? Nobody in America knew we were doing it that day. Mark, Mark knew. He figured it out. We were, we had, we had GPS coordinates out by the south end of Catalina Island. We're trying to find the bodies. We broke the side scan sonar and Mark said something to me I will never forget. He said, they, they did that in Lacey Peterson's case. We never found her. You're not going to find the bodies. And if you, if you get enough evidence anyway, don't let that stop you. And I thought that was so cool. And Mark was exactly right. We never found the Bodies. But we did accumulate the evidence. We prosecuted them anyway and we got a clean sweep.

[Mark Geragos]

I got, you know, and it's ironic we tell this story. Something's being reported today in the. The Hooker case. Right?

[Matt]

That's right. Wait, they.

[Mark Geragos]

I thought they did. They got either authority or permission to do the GPS stuff. Yeah, there's a. They've got a search of. The Bahamian authorities approved the search of a 25 foot deep zone flagged by Brian Hooker's phone GPS data. So get this. So they have now, 25 years ago, these were emerging kinds of technology, the GPS, because we did one of the first, the cell phone admissibility of triangulation of cell phone towers. So what ends up happening is you can take the cell phone data back then, it was in its infancy, and you can kind of triangulate depending on whether or not there's a lot of traffic, little traffic, how many cell phone towers there are. And you can, you can, I'll use that word, kind of pinpoint, if you will, or geofence an area where the person was. And that was in its infancy back then. You combine that then with the sonar to search the body of water. They've melded that together. Look how far we've come in 25 years.

[Matt]

It's pretty amazing, really. And that case is one that the Coast Guard sees the vessel and I guarantee they're going. They're pointing through. Oh my goodness.

[Mark Geragos]

That, that gps, they are sweet. They are scrubbing. Not clean, but scrubbing for any kind of transfer, DNA, trace evidence, anything that they can use to show or try to undercut his stately.

[Matt]

That's right. So he made a full. I guess he did a full interview, apparently.

[Mark Geragos]

A full interview, which could argue. I can argue either way. He had nothing to hide. He was doing it. Or as you and I too often see, somebody thinks they're going to talk their way out of second.

[Matt]

Right. And that is.

[Mark Geragos]

You have that look. How many guys, how many times have you hoisted somebody on the petard of their own statements?

[Matt]

There is nothing better for a prosecutor than the guy who just keeps talking. And how many times, Mark, have you told defendants. Shut the F up. To not make a statement because it's never good.

[Moses Castillo]

Right.

[Mark Geragos]

Like it's. I am by the. The. And they don't believe you. And I've told. You've heard my stories on this. But it is the toughest thing in the world for a defense lawyer that decision. Do I put my client on the stand if the client is given an interview already Then you gotta deal with that.

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[Mark Geragos]

ones kind of like him. Are you shaking a maraca?

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[Mark Geragos]

Nice disclaimer.

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There's a pill version of Ozempic.

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[Mark Geragos]

Sawyer a couple of months ago, and I was teasing her. I said, I can't tell you. You have cut for me and you cut against me. I remember one case where she had interviewed my client before the trial. I put the interview onto the jury, but not for what my client was saying, but to make the argument, look how good my client looked then and look what's happened to her now. And then in another case, it was Scott Peterson, who we were over here talking about still fascinates people here at Crime Con. And in that case, the interview was devastating in many respects. I don't think because it showed guilt. I think because people looked at it and it confirmed the fact, this lack of affect narrative that the pro, you know, he didn't act right, he didn't look right.

[Matt]

Well, that's one of the things that I, as a prosecutor, you love. Because a lot of times just that the affect and, you know, when you're talking about DNA evidence or some, some exotic form of forensic testing or whatever, nobody has an intuitive sense. But you get that 500 years of experience that a jury has and human relationships and affairs, and they have an idea in their mind exactly how somebody should be acting if they were innocent and their wife is missing.

[Mark Geragos]

Well, you know, it's so funny because I always say with prosecutors, when I break down, and I've said this to jurors too, I said, you're going to hear because an opening statement is basically, this is what the evidence is going to be. And so I'll say they're going to do this block of evidence, then they're going to do this block of evidence and then they're going to do the character assassination block of evidence. And that's just to tie it all up to make the jurors not want to help the Percy.

[Matt]

I was a ninja when it came to the assassination.

[Mark Geragos]

It's one of the reasons that, that I always, I, you know, I enjoyed working with you, but I hated the idea of trying a case against you.

[Matt]

I take that as the highest compliment imaginable.

[Mark Geragos]

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[Matt]

By the way, going back to Scott Peterson, I gotta tell you, every time like la la Innocence Project. Every time I hear somebody come up with some theory about why he. He didn't do, I get, I get a little defensive because if your team didn't figure it out, from my view, doesn't exist.

[Mark Geragos]

Well, that's why la Innocent Project. I think Scots him. I was just telling this the room. When people ask, maybe you start to get this now. Do you ever get people saying, hey, you were a prosecutor so many, so many years. How in the hell do you now defend those people you used to prosecute?

[Matt]

Oh, I get that. I get that.

[Mark Geragos]

So I've always. I was never a prosecutor. I never wanted to prosecute someone for something I would do. So I always get. How do you sleep at night if you know they're guilty? And I say I sleep fine when I have an issue, it's when I believe they're innocent. Scott Peterson. And when I found out that the prosecutors deep six the evidence that now has been brought to light, that's infuriating to me, that is, because I've said it a million times. I've had people lambaste me about it. I knew that evidence better than anyone in real time. I certainly don't have the handle on it now, 25 years later. But there was no way this guy did it. Now you had. You came from the opposite. You. How do you sleep at night if you suspected somebody was innocent? You ever get that question?

[Matt]

Yeah. So that's one of the common ones, is, is. And it's. It's probably the most common one. So now that you're done, did they all really do it? And the thing that a lot of people don't know is that as a prosecutor, you know this mark, right? What you're supposed to do, if, if you entertain a subjective doubt as to anything, enhancements, anything, you have a sacrosanct ethical obligation as a lawyer, as a prosecutor to go in that day, do not pass, go and dump it, whatever it is. And I, I had a case.

[Mark Geragos]

So wait, let's just before. So we don't gloss over that. The defense lawyer does not have that obligation.

[Matt]

No, there's. No, there's exact opposite.

[Mark Geragos]

The exact opposite. The defense lawyer's duty, zealously defend. You're not there to convict. You're not there to do the prosecution's bidding. You are there to people who say, well, that sounds weird. No, I'm there to assess the case. I'm there to counsel the person I'm trying to investigate and provide defenses. If I don't think they can prevail, I'm there to try to convince you as to a soft place to land. But if I convince you that my client may be innocent, you've got a different duty. You're not there as my, as my adversary. At that point.

[Matt]

No, at that point. And that, that's one of the things about as a prosecutor when you're dealing with real professionals. I'll tell you another.

[Mark Geragos]

You.

[Matt]

There's. There was a guy in Orange County Named Gary Poulsen.

[Mark Geragos]

I remember.

[Matt]

You remember Gary. So Gary became a judge. Gary retired, and just Gary was.

[Mark Geragos]

We've talked about Marcia Schulman. Different.

[Matt]

Gary was the opposite. Opposite end.

[Mark Geragos]

Yeah.

[Matt]

Marshall was all vinegar and spice. Gary was one of those guys. Gary would come in the caseload of, like, he'd have 10 misdemeanors in misdemeanor land, right? And he'd show up for.

[Moses Castillo]

For.

[Matt]

And he's very successful. So he'd have a big caseload every time. And Gary's the type of guy who'd sit down with you and go, this guy's an. But there's another side to this story. This guy. I need a continuance because he hasn't paid me yet. And it was just.

[Mark Geragos]

It was brutal, by the way.

[Matt]

Rule one, continuance.

[Mark Geragos]

Yes, Rule one, continuous. We used to invoke. They said, what's your authority? The judge would. I say, people versus Green.

[Matt]

Yeah, people versus Green. And for the guys that are good, that treat you well, you'll always give them that.

[Mark Geragos]

People versus Green. Why are you trying to pick my pocket?

[Matt]

But for the really good defense players, once you respect when they come in and they go down the list and, hey, this guy. How about we do 30 instead of 60 days? You know, misdemeanors. But then when he gets to that tenth name, and he says, this is one for me, Matt. This is one Matt, you really need to take a second look at. And that was for those deployers like you, like Gary. And there's. And there's a bunch that I dealt with that.

[Mark Geragos]

You know those ones.

[Matt]

You look at your file and you go, let's kick it over. Give me what you got. Give me your investigation. And I cannot tell you, Mark. Well, you know how many of those I would dump over the years?

[Mark Geragos]

I can think of two cases that you dump. When he did that, I can think of another guy, and I'm. I'm not going to give his name because he's now in a different prosecutorial office. I gave the opening statement on an arson case downstairs. He asked to approach. He told the judge, I didn't know that any of this stuff Mr. Gerris was saying, I want a recess. The judge says, I'm not giving you a recess. I said, judge, he just said, he's got a doubt, he's got an ethical duty. He. He did the investigation based on the opening, and he came back two days later and dismissed.

[Matt]

I had. I had a murder case, and I. I went through. I had an opening statement it's public defender. And. And I was pissed at the end, to be honest, because he could have given it to me six months earlier. And we're standing there opening. What it was, was. It was a. Chris, I'll never forget. It was a Christie's party melee. It's like 10 guys in a fight, and then the guy at the bottom of the pile dies right there. All these.

[Mark Geragos]

And how many times you've had that? Or the last guy to take a punch or falling down, he hits their head in the.

[Matt]

There was a mistake. It like in. In the evidence control numbers. It's just a simple clerical error where the knife with his DNA got mislabeled as the one that had the victim's blood on it. So we're full steam ahead. And I just. I missed it. We had. It was a MELEE. There was 10 different names. And one of those. And the defense lawyer was a guy that I liked before gets up. Public defense, before this gets up, it does an opening. And I'm like, sorry, I'm going to swear here. I think I can get away with him, like, and I'll leave his name up. And I'm like, what the fuck, dude? Why didn't you tell me? Why didn't you tell me? And I looked it up. He was right. And I dumped. I dumped it. So I was still involved in the fight, but the integrity of the case

[Mark Geragos]

was the one I liked about. Because this guy, in this particular case, in the arson case, I would have told him what I had discovered. But the problem was he had a rabbit investigator. And the rabbit investigator I had turned over some information that was exculpatory. And he just invented around it.

[Matt]

Yeah, right.

[Mark Geragos]

And so I said, okay, yeah, screw you, you're not going to do it. I'm going to whack you in front of the jury. And I presented it, and I remember what it was. It was the guy next door, the business next door, who was trying to torch his business, but it ended up burning my client's business. And I had all of the financial records showing why he did it. And when that TA got a load of it and he started to yell at me like, you were. Why didn't you tell me this? I've known you forever. And I told him why. And he said, oh, okay. Basically, the fucker was like shanking me in the back, you know?

[Matt]

And that's the thing. Like, it's an element of it where you've got. You have a passionate investigator who truly believes. But the ethical obligation of an investigator Working for a prosecutor. A lot of people don't know this. It's the prosecutor's ethics. Exactly. Fall under the umbrella of the prosecutor and the. I mean, look, I work with the best of the best with the cities I had Costa Mesa, Laguna.

[Mark Geragos]

What's the name of the guy we just had last week? Who?

[Matt]

Dave Byington.

[Mark Geragos]

What?

[Matt]

Dave Byington.

[Mark Geragos]

What an impressive guy. I wish he was in la. I would hire him.

[Matt]

Fantastic. He's fantastic. But there's guys who worked on that case. Who do they got their PI license now I'll do a shout out. Keith Krelman is now doing private criminal.

[Mark Geragos]

Okay.

[Matt]

Private investigation. But he is used. One of the guys on Daily Own absolutely. Nails diligent like Joe Friday guy and just a good dude. But he's now doing private investigations. But I'll tell you what. Making that transition and you'll love this story. I. A bunch of my guys retired at the same time. One of them is Darren Wyatt, who was. I don't know if you ever encountered Darren. He was a Placentia. Then he went to Anaheim Cops.

[Mark Geragos]

I think when he was at Anaheim.

[Matt]

Cops. Cop. As a cop. Could be cop. He's running for sheriff right now in an area in Wyoming. And he's great. Okay. So. But. But he left about the same time I did. I went up with a bar fight. Okay. And it was a bunch of guys in a boat.

[Mark Geragos]

You as a defense lawyer.

[Matt]

I as. Me as the defense lawyer. Okay. So I got a bar fight. I got an insurance salesman, 32 years old. Really nice guy, never had trouble a day in his life. And it's. It's the video always has half the fight on it. Right? It's always half the fight. And so. And you didn't see what precipitated is that with. Well, and if it's a bar fight with alcohol, obviously there's a woman involved. I shouldn't say girl. A woman is in the middle of it. Jealous boyfriend. One of those things my guy has. It's his buddy. So he's basically innocent, but he's also. He's hammered. They're in the parking lot. He gets tuned up, right? They. They rock his world. He gets beat up. It's like a three on one. And he's got this brand new van that he just put carpet in. So he's got this carpet cutting tool goes in and he restores a little bit of his dignity by grabbing it, chasing everybody around the parking lot. And so what do they do? They. And nobody gets hurt. He murders the gate he stabs the gate after they all run behind this gate. So they charge him with a 245. That's assault, the deadly weapon, as a felony.

[Mark Geragos]

And if he eats the felony, likely

[Matt]

with a straight up 245, a one with a knife, okay? So as an insurance guy, he loses his license, which means at 32, he loses his entire book of business. But most important for him, he would go duck hunting with his elderly father every year. And he couldn't possess a firearm for 10 years. He went down on it. And I bring in Darren Wyatt, and Darren Wyatt is like, calls me at like 11 o', clock, just like we're working a murder. He calls me bro, bro, bro, bro. I got, I. This is awesome. And he's got the security footage. And I've watched it like 10 times, but I never watched the counter. And turns out the guys that started the fight, they were the local kind of barflies in the place. And they're friends with the manager who gave the tape over. Turns out they, they erased three minutes of the tape. And Darren, I misses it. I miss it. Darren catches it. He's like, bro, three minutes. Three minutes. Which, as you know, it's like a blank check. And I hear, you know what?

[Mark Geragos]

There is, there is no way to proceed with that case.

[Matt]

There's no way prosecuting. So I went in. There was a young, eager guy, I'll leave his name out, who I trained. And he wanted to try a case against me. Right. And then a new guy comes in.

[Mark Geragos]

That's one of the problems sometimes when you get a new guy.

[Matt]

Yes.

[Mark Geragos]

You're having.

[Matt]

Yeah, they want your scalp.

[Mark Geragos]

Yeah, right, exactly. But then I often say, if you try a case against me, your career is going to ascend like you wouldn't believe.

[Matt]

Right, Right. So anyway, I bring it into. He gets rotated out. New guy comes in, I lay it out to him and I'm like, look, I just need to get a misdemeanor so the guy doesn't lose his license and so he can go duck hunting with. He can go duck hunting with his dad. Okay? And the guy looks at it, he's like, I got three minutes missing on the tape. He goes, I can do better than that. Dumps the whole thing. It's like Prosecutorial Ethics 101. I'd never met the guy before. Looked like he was 12. I was proud of him. On the flip side, Mark, and this is a story that I keep telling you. I'm going to tell you.

[Mark Geragos]

Yes. And I've been asking and I got

[Matt]

to lay it out for you. I. I've got a case out of la. Special prosecutor who hid evidence from us. And it is the most exculpatory thing. This is the episode I want to. I don't want to blow it. Well, I want to march you because I want to. I want to go through the photos

[Mark Geragos]

with you from start to finish. Plus I want, if we're doing it on YouTube, I want to show the evidence so you can see it. I was circling back to Peterson. One of the things that irked the hell out of me, I was just telling a story. In that case, mitochondrial DNA evidence had never been admitted in California, as you know, you then have to do for any new science. You have to.

[Matt]

Yeah.

[Mark Geragos]

So we do a two week hearing. They're flying in the guys from the FBI's lab, where I'm challenging the data set that they're using for the comparisons. Everything along those lines, we do it. If finally the judge rules, it can come in. Well, I'm crossing. And it was all because a hair was found in the boat.

[Matt]

And for the, for the listener, Mido is teeth hair. It's. And the numbers are never that great. It's like one in 75. It's not like, it's not like DNA. DNA with one in a trillion.

[Mark Geragos]

And so you're fighting. I'm waiting two weeks on this because, by the way, if I hadn't fought, it would have been, you know, malpractice, per se. Iac. So then I'm cross examining the investigating officer and I notice on his report, he's excised, kind of like you're three minutes a paragraph. And so I demand the original. And he's hemming and hawing. Well, you get the original. The paragraph that he's excised is a witness who told him he saw Lacy in the boat. I spent two weeks wasting my time on a hair in the boat when Lacy was in the boat. How crazy is that? Yeah.

[Matt]

And for my story, just everybody's clear. It was the bar that did the deletion, trying to help everybody. It wasn't the police.

[Mark Geragos]

I know.

[Matt]

Wasn't the DA's office.

[Mark Geragos]

You don't ever want to slam law enforcement. I get that.

[Matt]

Oh, just wait, just wait.

[Mark Geragos]

Well, I love the fact that you came to the side of light. There's a pill version of Ozempic.

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[Mark Geragos]

I'm gonna bring on. Come here for a sec. Now.

[Matt]

Talk about law enforcement.

[Mark Geragos]

Yeah. Long.

[Moses Castillo]

Okay.

[Mark Geragos]

Sit down. I know. Not easy. Now introduce yourself. Yeah.

[Moses Castillo]

So my name is Moses Castillo, a retired LAPD detective and now a private investigator. And I had the honor to go against Mark Garagos, the infamous celebrity defense criminal attorney, on a case involving a USC student who was accused of murder. And he did a great job defending her.

[Mark Geragos]

Four times I got that case dismissed. Murder case. Four times. Four times. And they just kept refiling it. And I would get it dismissed, and they would come again. Finally, to your point, was it. Who did the deal? Was it Mary Murray?

[Moses Castillo]

Yeah, Mary Murray.

[Mark Geragos]

Mary Murray finally did the deal after the fourth dismissal. It was four dismissals. Four dismissals of a murder case. I mean, I can remember the judges. It was Sam Meyerson and Rose.

[Moses Castillo]

Last one.

[Mark Geragos]

Right, Rose. Commissioner Dave Wesley.

[Moses Castillo]

Then Kennedy Powell.

[Mark Geragos]

Yeah. And then Kathleen Kennedy Powell. And I kept. The pathologist could not establish that the fetus had been born alive. And LADA would not let go of it. They just kept filing and filing and this guy. And we would go to battle. We go to war. It was over three years.

[Matt]

Tell us, tell us, how many years were you with LAPD?

[Moses Castillo]

I was with LAPD for over 30 years.

[Matt]

30 years.

[Moses Castillo]

20 years investigating sex crimes and crimes against children. Physical abuse. Sex abuse and murder. Children. That's how I got the case involving

[Matt]

the US how many. How many homicides do you think you worked over the years? Oh, wow.

[Moses Castillo]

Too many. To count.

[Mark Geragos]

And it's.

[Moses Castillo]

It's really sad.

[Mark Geragos]

You. You. At one point, I swear I used to see you every day in the criminal courts, Burger. Every day. You were on that third floor, up on the ninth floor.

[Moses Castillo]

Yeah, because since I retired, I became known as a victim advocate for many victims and their families after George Gascon's policies kind of went more in favor of those accused of crimes than the actual victims.

[Matt]

Yeah. And I got to say. I know, I know, I know, I know. Gascon gave Mark some good deals. I was not a fan. I, I.

[Mark Geragos]

The. One of the best is one of the great. Understand?

[Matt]

Yeah. I hate. I hated that guy.

[Mark Geragos]

He.

[Matt]

Because he went after. Look, he prosecuted an innocent police officer that we. That. And this is the story I gotta tell you about it. I don't want to blow.

[Mark Geragos]

You don't want to blow it.

[Matt]

But it is so. It is such a crazy story. And that's the thing. Like, right now, LAPD, lowest number since 1995. They can't meet their recruiting thing, all that defund the police stuff, turns out, worst idea ever in history. But the place that suffers most is when they cut back. They cut back on training, which is ironic, right, because it accomplishes the exact opposite of what these people want. But the first unit that goes like is sex crimes.

[Moses Castillo]

Sex crimes.

[Matt]

It's sex crimes. And so the people that are advocating for defund the police, truly, what they're doing is they're advocating on behalf of child molesters and frigging rapists. And I'm screaming it to the rooftops. Nobody seems to get it. I'm so glad that you came by the booth.

[Moses Castillo]

Yeah. Yeah. You know what? I gotta tell you, one of the best lines I've ever heard from Mark is this. As he's doing a probable cause hearing, he goes to the judge. Your Honor, I know that the burden approved for this hearing is just that. My client could breathe. And I started laughing.

[Matt]

I'll tell you what, though. I did 26 years as a DA. You did over 30 as a detective. And if you were in trouble tomorrow in LA county, is there anybody besides Mark Garagos you want to hire to defend you? Like, I would have Mark Dimitri Goran

[Moses Castillo]

and Alex Glenn Eisner.

[Mark Geragos]

Yeah.

[Moses Castillo]

But because Mark. Mark will be too expensive from la,

[Mark Geragos]

California, I give you a discount, you

[Matt]

get a discount on Mark.

[Mark Geragos]

So what is. Are you able to talk about the David case? Because that case is fascinating.

[Matt]

Which one?

[Mark Geragos]

Absolutely.

[Matt]

Oh, yeah.

[Mark Geragos]

David.

[Moses Castillo]

Well, I can tell you that Beth Cranston, the prosecutor in the case, she's an amazing prosecutor, and it's in great hands and the way they handled that.

[Mark Geragos]

How long have you known her?

[Moses Castillo]

Oh, for decades. Yeah. She's actually.

[Mark Geragos]

Since she was a new deputy. I haven't seen her or talked to her lately, but I'm told she wants to slit my throat, ironically, because I've been talking about her case so much.

[Moses Castillo]

Yeah.

[Mark Geragos]

Wouldn't you agree with me that the last human you want is a prosecutor coming at you as Beth. Oh, absolutely.

[Moses Castillo]

Her or. Or Franco Barrado.

[Mark Geragos]

Franco Barrado. I love Franco. So.

[Moses Castillo]

But yeah. And so because the reason I brought Beth up is because me knowing she's on the case and the way she handled it, going from the grand jury process and doing the subpoenas and doing all that, I think was brilliant.

[Matt]

Top. Top door, top notch.

[Moses Castillo]

And I think now they're at a place where the evidence is going to just nail this guy. And I know Mark probably disagrees, but the evidence is the evidence, and the law does allow you to present circumstantial evidence.

[Matt]

Let me say. Here's one of the things about Mark Aragos. If he. As long as he's not on the case, there's almost nobody more rational on the planet that you can break a case down to. And he will. He'll call it as he sees it.

[Mark Geragos]

Exactly. And I will tell that by a certain point, you can only get the client to do what the client's going to do.

[Moses Castillo]

Right.

[Mark Geragos]

Absolutely. And that's a. You know, the interesting thing that she did in the David case. As you know, everybody thought it was completely circumstantial and this or that. And there wasn't much there when they pushed back in, wouldn't wave time. She was like a lethal assassin. Yes. She got up in court, says child porn on the phone. We got this there.

[Matt]

You talk about an unforced error. We were looking forward to the evidence coming out, and they said, cool, here you go. I'm going to file a preliminary. Have you ever seen a prelim brief? I've never seen that. It's like a trial brief, but for preliminary hearing, laying out all the facts.

[Mark Geragos]

And David's got exceptional lawyers, but sometimes best laid prior, best laid plans.

[Matt]

And that was one of those that struck me as a. As a spontaneous moment where they're like, you know, and we're looking for the. And it was like there. And they answered that. They. I mean, that was. That was very impressive. And for. And for the.

[Mark Geragos]

For the listener reasons that I try to counsel my young lawyers. You've got to look at the file, you have to know the file. And if you don't have the file, don't go out walking the plane.

[Moses Castillo]

Right, Exactly.

[Mark Geragos]

Because it's a disaster.

[Matt]

It's a disaster.

[Moses Castillo]

And now. Now you. You're. You're like a deer in the headlights. You don't know what hit you. And now I'm surprised the judge allowed it to be. To push pause for so long. I mean, that's.

[Matt]

Yeah. And you know, that's unheard of. And you know what else they. The exclamation point on that whole moment was when they said, and I don't know what it is yet, but, oh, by the way, we got child pornography on his phone. And that nothing will cause people to run for the exits quicker than that.

[Mark Geragos]

I. Well, you know, what is murder, if you're in custody is actually like a badge of distinction. Child porn or child element pedophilia. You might as well. You're going to get shanked. Your shelf life is built on.

[Moses Castillo]

And the disclosure of those text messages where they're having an argument about her gonna go public. Yeah, that gives you motive right there.

[Matt]

It's motive. Yep, big time. It's motive. And then. And then also they. What I don't understand about that one. And I mean, there's a great line in the movie Band of Brothers where they're trying to figure out why the Germans are like, shooting at something that's 20 miles away. And the answer was, they're in as smart as me and you. I don't know why he would go through that. He buys the pool, gets the saws, and then his grand disposal plan is put her in the trunk of his own freaking car and drive it around the corner.

[Mark Geragos]

Leave it on the street, by the way. Leave it on the street. The greatest line about this, when I would say, why in the world did the client do this? To go. Mark, if they made good decisions, they wouldn't need you.

[Matt]

Yeah, well, that's. That's right. And if they thought like the rest of us, they wouldn't be murderers in the first place.

[Moses Castillo]

I think he was keeping his little souvenir.

[Mark Geragos]

You. That's.

[Moses Castillo]

That's how you saw it?

[Matt]

My very woman didn't want to get rid of her.

[Moses Castillo]

Yet he had that video, the music video that. That very graphic and gory with the

[Matt]

actress that looks just like her.

[Moses Castillo]

Exactly.

[Matt]

Yeah. And that's another thing. Look, that case, he's famous, but as you know, L.A. county and Riverside are filled with Celeste Rivas that nobody knows about because it's not a famous singer that did it. It's the boyfriend. It's the baby daddy. And so this is good, I think, to bring attention. Quick story.

[Moses Castillo]

Remember when you were in Crimecon and you were talking about the men of his brothers and you were on stage

[Mark Geragos]

two years ago, do you remember who

[Moses Castillo]

called you on the ph.

[Mark Geragos]

Lyle? No, it was me. Oh, that was you. That's absolutely true. Do you know this? Tell the story.

[Moses Castillo]

So. So he's up there. He says he tells the audience. Sorry, members of the audience, but I have to keep my phone here because we're expecting a spiritual phone call. And I'm sitting here. I'm sitting here with my wife, and I say, I have a cell phone. Should I call him? She says, no, don't. I'm gonna call him. So I call them, and they get all excited. Is it him? He goes, no. He hangs up on me.

[Matt]

Hung up on you. You got big boyed by Lyle Menendez.

[Mark Geragos]

Yeah.

[Matt]

Yeah, there's something.

[Mark Geragos]

Thank you.

[Moses Castillo]

Thank you.

[Matt]

I appreciate you guys.

[Mark Geragos]

Thank you.

[Matt]

Pleasure to see you, as always. See you guys.

[Mark Geragos]

So, you know, that is he. I always used to tease him, too, as lapd.

[Moses Castillo]

Yeah.

[Mark Geragos]

My favorite line. What does LAPD stand for? Do you know this? No. Lost and presumed destroyed. I didn't want to. I didn't want to nail him on that. But, you know, this has been a lot of fun. I could talk to you forever, but I'm getting. You see that woman over there?

[Matt]

She's going like, oh, she's hitting the watch.

[Mark Geragos]

Yeah. She's giving me one of these that I got to get going.

[Matt]

Well, hey, look, I for one, am so glad that people are. They're listening to the pod. This has been wonderful. We got an awesome team.

[Mark Geragos]

You know, last night for. And thank you to everybody who is watching and listening. We have. Apparently, people want to hear these stories because they say the numbers are off the charts.

[Matt]

I love that. I love that.

[Mark Geragos]

Meanwhile, you got dressed up today, I'm in a T shirt, and you bait and switched me.

[Matt]

Well, I just had to do a panel, so I got an excuse. But listen, for those of you who are listening for the first time to the pod, Mark and I, basically, these are gonna be conversations that Mark and I would have over lunch. He gets to be a fly on the wall, and we will definitely engage audience questions and all that as the pod goes on.

[Mark Geragos]

And it's a lot of fun, and I love talking to Matt. So thank you.

[Matt]

Thanks, everybody.

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[Mark Geragos]

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[Mark Geragos]

Nice disclaimer.

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[Mark Geragos]

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[Mark Geragos]

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