Judge DENIES Motion in Tyler Robinson Hearing, Karmelo Anthony’s Defense, and Serial Killer Artifacts at Zak Bagans’ Haunted Museum

Summary

MK True Crime Podcast Summary

Episode: Judge DENIES Motion in Tyler Robinson Hearing, Karmelo Anthony’s Defense, and Serial Killer Artifacts at Zak Bagans’ Haunted Museum
Date: June 4, 2026
Hosts: Dave Aronberg & Phil Holloway

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Episode Overview

This episode delivers a packed hour of true crime insights, community highlights, and a chilling museum tour. Dave and Phil open with a recap of their Las Vegas CrimeCon experience, dig deep into significant updates on two front-page legal cases—the Tyler Robinson hearing and the Carmelo Anthony trial—and round out the show by exploring notorious serial killer artifacts at Zak Bagans’ haunted museum. As always, the hosts provide expert legal analysis, spirited debate, and a dash of wit for the true crime faithful.

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Table of Contents

1. CrimeCon 2026 Recap
2. Tyler Robinson Hearing: Motions, Judge’s Rulings, and Legal Analysis
3. Carmelo Anthony Trial: Facts, Coverage, and Media Frenzy
4. Zak Bagans’ Haunted Museum Tour: Serial Killer Artifacts
5. Notable Quotes & Moments
6. Closing Arguments and Reflections

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1. CrimeCon 2026 Recap

Timestamps: 01:00–11:16

Highlights:

• Dave and Phil share highlights of meeting for the first time in person, bonding with other MK True Crime hosts and fans, and connecting with prominent figures in the true crime media space.
• Noted increased male attendance at CrimeCon:

  “I noticed more men there than before because normally at CrimeCon, there’s never a line for the men’s room, but…I think the balance was not 95/5 anymore.” – Dave Aronberg (05:56)

• Recounted media adventures, including visiting the (infamous) Poodle Room, which became an inside joke regarding exclusive club access in Las Vegas and the lengths required to investigate a story “on location.”

  “We made it to the Poodle Room and guess what? …we did not find the target of our investigation there…” – Phil Holloway (09:43)

• The sense of community and access at CrimeCon is celebrated:

  “These are people who love true crime just like we do…and it was great to meet with them and speak to them firsthand.” – Phil Holloway (03:05)

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2. Tyler Robinson Hearing: Motions, Judge’s Rulings, and Legal Analysis

Timestamps: 12:56–23:32

Key Discussion Points:

• Judge’s Rulings:
  • Preliminary hearing to remain open; live-streamed and accessible to the public (with cameras).
  • Defense partially succeeds: prosecutors must justify why they shouldn’t be found in contempt for allegedly violating a gag order.
  • Contentious debate over whether prosecutors’ statements were contemptuous or a necessary correction of misinformation.
  • Judge allows for a hearing on possible contempt but makes clear:

    “The issuance of this order … does not constitute a finding of contempt.” – Judge Graff (22:20)

• Transparency & Evidence Issues:
  • Only exhibits deliberately published in open court will be visible to viewers, despite cameras.
  • Hosts strongly opposed the defense’s efforts to restrict access:

    “If there was ever a case that needs full transparency, it’s this one. Because conspiracy theories are running amok on the Internet…” – Dave Aronberg (17:53)

  • Concern about defense using appeals and procedural tactics to delay proceedings (“dripping molasses”; 15:15).
• Legal Analysis:
  • Disagreement among hosts over whether the prosecutor’s actions violate the gag order.
  • Emphasis on how trial delays typically favor the defense:

    “…generally works to the benefit of the defendant because evidence gets missing, trails go cold, witnesses…become unavailable…” – Phil Holloway (20:43)

  • Problematic trend of closing off courtrooms, with the defense aggressively appealing media access decisions.

Notable Quote:

“Live streaming in particular allows as many people as are interested to observe the justice system at work and to hold our branches of government accountable…” – (Judge Graff, read by Phil Holloway, 15:41)

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3. Carmelo Anthony Trial: Facts, Coverage, and Media Frenzy

Timestamps: 23:32–27:32, 52:28–57:10

Key Discussion Points:

• Case Background:
  • Carmelo Anthony, Texas teen, stands trial for the stabbing death of Austin Metcalfe (2025 track meet incident).
  • Disputed claim of self-defense by the defendant; racial overtones add complexity and stir media attention.
  • Direct testimony from victim’s twin brother, Hunter Metcalf, underscoring emotional and senseless nature of the act (Clip: 24:51–25:41).
• Media and Community Response:
  • Protests, “marches,” and public attempts to sway jurors dominate courthouse atmosphere.
  • Defense’s claims of self-defense debated, with Phil pointing out that in Texas law, the instigator cannot claim self-defense.
  • Allegations of jury tampering and ongoing discussions about whether the jury should be sequestered.
• Legal Risks:
  • Concerns about impartiality due to community pressure and social media.
  • Consideration of sequestering the jury as the only reliable safeguard in such high-profile, emotionally charged cases.

Notable Quotes:

“You can’t avail yourself…of self defense if you’re the initial instigator. And that’s what seems to be happening here.” – Phil Holloway (25:41)
“This is not a public opinion poll. This is a criminal trial. And jurors must decide solely on the evidence…” – Phil Holloway (Closing, 54:52)

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4. Zak Bagans’ Haunted Museum Tour: Serial Killer Artifacts

Timestamps: 30:29–49:48

Highlights:

• Phil, Natasha, and Maddie tour the Haunted Museum’s infamous serial killer exhibit, encountering:
  • Dr. Jack Kevorkian’s Van:
    “Inside the van…you will see replicates of doctors. Both devices were activated by a button that [Kevorkian] would give the patient so that they themselves could make the final determination…” – Museum Staff (33:18)
  • Ted Bundy’s Murder Kit & Disguise:
    “The guy was very much a narcissist…But he was truly one of those people that doesn’t have the ability to feel…empathy…” – Phil Holloway (35:28)
    • Discussion about the psychology of serial killers and their artifacts providing a “connection to sad history.”
  • Richard Ramirez’s Prison TV/Criminal Fan Clubs:
    • “These brutal killers have fan clubs…people that would come see him and visit him and write to him.” – Phil Holloway (36:55)
  • John Wayne Gacy and the Insanity Defense
    • Gacy actively opposed his own insanity defense, wanting to be recognized as sane for his crimes.
  • Charles Manson’s Personal Items & Anecdote:
    • Story of Manson’s stolen teeth and correspondence with another inmate adds dark humor.
  • Samuel Little’s Ashes:
    • A stark discussion of America’s most prolific serial killer, with speculation on serial killer psychology and confessions.
  • Ed Gein and Texas Chainsaw Massacre Parallels:
    • Artifacts from Gein’s grave robbing and murder legacy, including a cauldron and shovel, with superstitious postscript about owners of the artifacts meeting mysterious fates.
  • Museum Atmosphere:
    • Basement segment notably spooks the team:
      “If anything bad’s going to happen, it’s probably going to be in the basement.” – Phil Holloway (43:30)
    • Maddie calls the clown room her “biggest scary moment.”
  • Reflections:
    “It was a really interesting experience. It’s something that makes me really think about all the history that literally…” – Phil Holloway (49:22)

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5. Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On True Crime Community:

  “Meeting you and meeting my fellow MK True Crime Channel hosts … was the best of it.” – Phil Holloway (03:05)

• On Court Transparency:

  “If there was ever a case that needs full transparency, it’s this one. Because the conspiracy theories are running amok on the Internet…” – Dave Aronberg (17:53)

• On Self Defense Law:

  “You can’t avail yourself…of the legal defense of self defense if you are the initial instigator.” – Phil Holloway (25:41)

• On Serial Killers’ Fan Clubs:

  “We’ve talked on the program about this…These brutal killers have fan clubs … You see it in all these other cases. It’s just fascinating…” – Phil Holloway (36:55)

• On Chilling Exhibits:

  “This is really spooky…To see this mock up like this really does give me your creeps, to be honest with you.” – Phil Holloway, on Dr. Kevorkian Exhibit (33:51)
  “Natasha and Maddie get to go first, so if something happens, I can run.” – Phil Holloway, on entering the basement (43:44)

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6. Closing Arguments and Reflections

Timestamps: 52:28–59:59

Phil Holloway: Jury Sequestration in High-Profile Trials

• Phil delivers an impassioned monologue on the necessity of jury sequestration when outside influences jeopardize the sanctity of a fair trial.

  “Without sequestration, outside influence can creep in like a silent poison, turning impartial citizens into partisans…” (54:52)

Dave Aronberg: Pop Culture Sidebar

• Dave delivers a humorous cultural critique, contrasting the modern “sad girl” pop era with Madonna’s staying power, connecting endurance in music to tenacity in the pursuit of justice:

  “…if they can’t find a reason to smile with a platinum record and a flawless skincare routine, then the rest of us are completely doomed…” (57:10)
  “If your dance floor feels dead, stop crying about it and just change the music.” (Closing quote, crediting Madonna)

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Final Thoughts

This episode exemplifies the intersection of entertainment, legal scrutiny, and the macabre fascinations that fuel the true crime community. With a balance of first-hand reporting, legal clarity, and immersive storytelling, Dave and Phil invite listeners into the center of America’s courtrooms and its strangest museum corridors—reminding us all that behind infamous names and today’s headlines, real stories (and sometimes, even chills) await.

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For Those Who Missed the Show:

• Expect deep dives, candid debate about law and media, and a masterclass on both the human and legal spectacle of high-profile crime.
• The haunted museum tour segment stands out for its immersive sense of dark history—well worth hearing for any true crime devotee.

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Follow up:

• The Tyler Robinson and Carmelo Anthony cases remain ongoing; listeners are encouraged to stay tuned for more detailed trial coverage and breaking developments as each case unfolds.
• For questions or comments, the hosts welcome engagement via social media.

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Transcript

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[Museum Tour Staff / Producer]

Foreign.

[Dave Aronberg]

Welcome to the MK True Crime Show. I'm Dave Aronberg, former state attorney for Palm Beach County, Florida, AKA the Florida lawman and currently managing partner of Dave Aronberg Law. I'm joined today by my co host, Phil Holloway, criminal defense lawyer, former prosecutor and former police officer in Atlanta, ga. Hi, Phil.

[Phil Holloway]

Dave, how are you, buddy? Great to be with you. I'm sorry we can't be in person like we were for our last episode.

[Dave Aronberg]

We were in Las Vegas at CrimeCon and we're gonna be talking about that. Let's go over what's on the agenda today. First, a CrimeCon recap. All of us here at the MK True Crime Channel gathered in Las Vegas over the weekend and it was a blast. You know what they say, what goes on in Vegas will be discussed on the next show. We'll tell you all about it.

[Phil Holloway]

Yeah. And a little bit later in the program, we have a very special treat for you. When we were at Cromcon in Las Vegas, we capped it off by myself and I was joined by our crack producers, Natasha and Maddie. We received a private tour of Zach Bagan's haunted museum. We saw items that were said to be cursed. We saw serial killer artifacts and crackers. Quite frankly, I think we may have even seen, or in my case, felt a ghost. And we'll take you along for the ride.

[Dave Aronberg]

I can't wait to see it because I arrived too late for that tour and next time I'm going to have to do it myself. But first, we have some updates in the case of accused Charlie Kirk killer, Tyler Robinson. We'll discuss a judge's latest rulings and why Robinson's case could see even more delays. And Monday marked the start of jury selection in the highly anticipated trial of Carmelo Anthony. That's the Texas teenager accused of stabbing a fellow high schooler to death at a 2025 track meet. Phil, first off, we have to talk about crime Con first. What was your great memory?

[Phil Holloway]

Obviously, Dave, meeting you was the highlight of the now. And I'm not really. I'm really not teasing. Meeting you and meeting my fellow MK True Crime Channel hosts from not only this show, but our other sister shows as well. It was. It was so much fun to be there with everyone. We don't oftentimes, if ever really, we're never in the same place together. And so this was our first opportunity to actually bond together as a cohesive group. And it was. It was a lot of fun. And, you know, I allegedly, you were on the flight that I was on leaving Las Vegas, but I didn't see you. But I'm sorry I missed you at the airport. But I did enjoy very much visiting with you and the others. That was probably the best of it. But also a close second runner up to that is meeting all of the people that were there to soak up and soak in the CrimeCon experience. These are real true crime buffs. These are people who love true crime just like we do. And they were here and they were there to soak it all up. And it was great to meet with them and to speak to them firsthand.

[Dave Aronberg]

Yeah. And the reason why we didn't see each other on the flight home was that one of us, meaning you, was in first class while Ashley and I and our spouses were back in steerage. But we had a good time. It was a wonderful experience. And, Phil, you're a great dude, and I really enjoyed meeting you in person for the first time. Ashley is also awesome. I was surprised. Ashley is six feet tall. I mean, who knew, right when you're on camera, and I mean, you. You didn't know that I was 6 foot 4, so you had no idea. By the way, the camera is. And I'm kidding.

[Phil Holloway]

Now you're shorter than I, you know. Dave, what are you, like four foot four, maybe? No, I'm just kidding.

[Dave Aronberg]

Five, five, nine. But I got an oversized head. Makes me look a little bigger. And we, we. We really had a great time with the whole group. And when it came to the people at CrimeCon, that was something that was special because we saw people who watch our show and who came up to us. We took pictures. And my favorite part was doing the show from Crimecon, from the exhibit hall. And kudos to our producers. They did an amazing job getting these mics that were able to catch our voices. And you didn't hear all the commotion in the background because there was a lot of background noise. There were many different boost there, many different podcasts, but it seemed like ours got a lot of attention. I was really happy about that. And if you were there, please reach out to the show, ask a question, follow us on social media. We love hearing from you. The best part are the people who are true crime junkies. And one other thing. This was my second crime con. And the thing that I noticed that was a little different, something I didn't expect. I noticed more men there than before because normally at CrimeCon, there's never a line for the men's room, but I think the balance was not 95. 5 anymore. It was closer to like 80, 20, you know, in.

[Phil Holloway]

In addition to that, it was awesome to be able to see and to reconnect in person with friends and colleagues, other producers, content producers in this, in this, in this genre, content creators. We saw, like, for example, we had Vinnie Politin from Court tv. We had Brian Entin, for example, on our program, and so many others people that you might see in front of a camera or hear in front of a microphone. And also the people that are behind them, like their producers, their show producers, and of course, other journalists who write in the true crime space. We were able to reconnect and visit with some of those folks. And I think it's just in general, an amazing experience, and it's something that I would highly recommend for anyone who's never participated. The next one is going to be in Orlando, and those of us here at MK True Crime, we're looking forward to being there for that one, too.

[Dave Aronberg]

Yes. Yeah. Back in Orlando, where everything goes down in the Sunshine State, there's always.

[Phil Holloway]

You're giving everybody immunity from. From prosecution for anything happens in Florida. Right, Dave?

[Dave Aronberg]

Yeah, right, right. Phil kept telling everyone in the crew, hey, we'll all stay at Dave's house at Crimecon. He doesn't realize Florida is a huge state. Orlando is two and a half hours away. So unless there's an MK True Crime helicopter, I think we'll have to stay in nearby hotels. But it was a. A great time. And I know we have some sots, Phil, I'll turn it over to you for that.

[Phil Holloway]

All right, so let me just sort of Set this up back in April, Dave.

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[Phil Holloway]

We were on Megyn Kelly's show and we were talking about the lawsuit between FBI Director Cash Patel and the Atlantic had to do with defamation. And so we. We were discussing that and there was some allegations made by the Atlantic regarding Cash Patel. Let's just go ahead and let's just hit slot one. This is my discussion on the Megyn Kelly show regarding our investigation we made into the Poodle Room in Las Vegas, the MK True Crime show. The three of us here, Ashley, Dave and I, along with our colleagues from the other two new shows that are dropping next week. We're going to be in Las Vegas at the end of May at CrimeCon. So what we will do is I volunteer that we're going to go to the Poodle Room out in Las Vegas because Director Patel says that it's false where he was claimed to said. It is also known that he's known to drink to excess at the Poodle Room in Las Vegas where he spends parts of his weekend. So we're going to go out there, Megan, and just for you, we're going to personally investigate and we're going to see if he's there and we'll report back.

[Megyn Kelly Show Host]

And also, I expect drinking to excess just so you can see what that's like.

[Phil Holloway]

Well, you know, whether you remember. Can't judge something you remember with it, right?

[Megyn Kelly Show Host]

Exactly. Exactly. It's method. You guys are method. You know, the method actors. You're method lawyers in doing your legal analysis.

[Phil Holloway]

All right. And of course, Dave, you know, we capped off our time in Las Vegas at CrimeCon. We made it into the Poodle Room. And by the way, we gotta thank Jana Spilbore because she is the one who made that happen. It's not a place you can get into very easily, but take a look at SOT2. Here's the results of our endeavor. All right, Megan, we made it. Like I told you on your show, we made it to the Poodle Room and guess what? We said we were going to investigate. We did not find the target of our investigation here at the.

[Phil Holloway (Museum Tour Host)]

No.

[Dave Aronberg]

And we definitely didn't take. And we look photographs inside.

[Phil Holloway]

No.

[Museum Tour Staff / Producer]

And we definitely didn't steal any gold toothpicks.

[Phil Holloway]

What the hell was that?

[Dave Aronberg]

And we definitely didn't get thrown out and commit crimes. Felonies.

[Phil Holloway]

But we did have an awesome time. And thank you to everyone for making CrimeCon 2026 an awesome experience for all of the MK.

[Museum Tour Staff / Producer]

He gets so serious after 18 bottles of Prosecco.

[Dave Aronberg]

It was only 12 that was Jonna is a trip. She got us in there. But the reason why we couldn't show you the pool room is that they're very strict. Not only do they say no cameras allowed, no video, no audio, they put a sticker on the camera, on your phone over the lens so you can't see anything or take pictures. And they take it very seriously.

[Phil Holloway]

No, they do. And that's true. And you know, that was a lot of fun. We certainly look forward to the next one.

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[Phil Holloway]

We do have some actual true crime news to talk about. We've got some news in the Tyler Robinson case. I guess you heard that the judge in the Tyler Robinson case has decided a couple of things. He's decided that the upcoming preliminary hearing, that's the probable cause determination. It's a pretrial hearing designed to the defense contest the strength, if you will, of the prosecutor's case. And the judge has to determine if there's enough evidence for the case to proceed. Did a crime probably occur and was this defendant probably the one who committed that crime? That's sort of what the PC hearing is about. But he also ruled that that is going to remain open to to the public. It's going to be live streamed. Cameras will be allowed. And he also gave the defense a little bit of a win, Dave. He said that the prosecutors have to show cause why they should not be held in contempt for violating a gag order. Now, I know you and I have talked about this before, and you don't agree that the prosecutors have violated that gag order. And so I want to break that down.

[Dave Aronberg]

Yeah, this is a ruling that just makes me shake my head. And I literally just shook my head because when you're talking about the gag order, the prosecutors were just responding to misinformation that was put out there by the defense team over some ballistic testing. And they don't have to stay silent when the jury pool is getting polluted with false information. They have to second to me. They have the right to set the record straight. And so I don't see how they could be held in contempt for that. And I know this is not what happened. The judge did not hold him in contempt, but the judge at least said, we'll start the process. He should have just shut it down. The judge should have said, no, we're not holding him in contempt. Your request is denied. But instead, the judge is like, well, okay, we'll set a schedule and we'll move forward in figuring out if there was contempt. There wasn't contempt. So I am disappointed by that ruling from a judge who I think has done a great job so far.

[Phil Holloway]

Well, you know, we can debate whether or not he's exactly done a great job. I've got mixed feelings about the judge.

[Dave Aronberg]

Good job. Maybe great is too big of a.

[Phil Holloway]

Well, look, he's giving, he's giving each side 90 minutes on this nonsense. 90 minutes for an evidentiary proceeding. And honestly, I don't know that we'll ever get this case brought to trial at this pace. If you're going to give the defense 90 minutes, you know it's going to take them double that to do their entire presentation. When you factor in objections and other things that will, that will slow this down. It's moving at the pace of dripping molasses. I can't believe he's giving 90 minutes per side. But here's the thing. The judge did say something that I do agree with with regard to live streaming. He said, quote, live streaming in particular allows as many people as are interested to observe the justice system at work and to hold our branches of government accountable to the guarant of due process. So on the one hand, Dave, that's good, but there's also this. It's not exactly as it might seem. Our friend Andrea Burkhart, who's a lawyer and a streamer, who's been a guest on this program before, posted on X that the judge basically took into consideration and accepted a stipulation of the parties and says that the media and the parties that nobody should be allowed to view or copy exhibits admitted in the preliminary hearing. Under this ruling, we will only see exhibits, Dave, if the parties choose to publish them in open court. And the bottom line, she says, is that it looks like the defense is getting what they want in terms of keeping much of the evidence from the public until trial, regardless of whether or not there are cameras in court and what that means. If the, if there's an item of evidence that's admitted for the judge to review, but it's not published, so to speak, in open court, we aren't going to see it, even if there's cameras in the courtroom.

[Dave Aronberg]

Could you see it afterwards, though, once the case is over?

[Phil Holloway]

Well, yeah, you know what, about 10, 12 years maybe. But we're not going to be. It's like the judge on the one hand is saying, yeah, we, we have to be able to see what goes on in the courtroom. But it's okay if everybody, the parties, the prosecutor and the defense want to agree amongst themselves to just not publish something. That way the public doesn't get to see it. So in addition to that, Dave, the defense is asking to stay all the proceedings while they appeal the judge's rulings for cameras. I have never in my life seen such an effort by really any team of lawyers to close the public out of courtrooms than what I'm seeing here. And I don't like it.

[Dave Aronberg]

I don't like it either. If there was ever a case that needs full transparency, it's this one. Because the conspiracy theories are running amok on the Internet, and you have irresponsible podcasters out there who are suggesting maybe a foreign government was involved with. Come on. This guy confessed. His DNA is on the gun. I mean, they got him dead to rights. I mean, it means motive, opportunity. He did it. If you think that he's somehow in cahoots with Mossad, then. Then you really should get your head examined, because we know who this is, and it's just a matter of time until he's proven guilty in a court of law. But because the defense benefits from these unanswered questions. We're just asking questions here. Well, that's why they don't want full transparency. If there are cameras, if there's transparency, then you can realize these conspiracy theories aren't worth the paper they're written on.

[Phil Holloway]

Well, speaking of cameras in the courtroom, we do have some video of Judge Graff finding that the defense has not shown that the prelim should be closed. Let's check out site three.

[Judge Graff (Court Audio)]

Defendant Tyler James Robinson seeks to close portions, if not all, of the preliminary hearing and to seal preliminary hearing exhibits. The public and the media enjoy a presumptive right to access court proceedings, including preliminary hearings. A party seeking to close a preliminary hearing must show that adverse publicity traceable to the opening hearing poses a realistic likelihood of prejudice to a fair trial. To overcome this presumption, the party seeking closure must also show there are no less restrictive alternative means to ensure the integrity and impartiality of the jury. Public access to the judicial to judicial proceedings also serve in an important role in maintaining confidence in the fairness and transparency of the judicial process. This court finds these showings have not been made here.

[Dave Aronberg]

Yeah, well, I mean, I. That's why I said I think he's done a good job. I think you're right. Great is a little bit exaggerated, but a good job. He is meticulously going through all the motions, given the defense, the. The proper respect, and making sure that his rulings are less likely to be overturned on appeal because he is giving a defendant the right to fair trial. He is making sure that the cameras in the courtroom aren't just automatically showing up. People just can't bring their cell phone camera. They got to, like, register with the court. It's got to be legit. And he is going through it factually, step by step, so that it doesn't get overturned on appeal. And the fact is, you're Right. The defense is seeking appellate review, which also delays matters which almost always inert to the benefit of the defense. But they're going to be rejected, and there will be cameras in the courtroom. Good thing. Yeah.

[Phil Holloway]

The more time you put between someone's arrest and the disposition of their case, whatever it may be, a jury verdict or whatever, that generally works to the benefit of the defendant because evidence gets missing, trails go cold, witnesses for whatever reason, become unavailable, and lots of things can happen to run prosecutors trains right off the tracks. But speaking of the prosecutors, Dave, back to this issue of contempt. As you may recall, and for the benefit of our audience, the defense had previously filed some pleadings where they referenced an ATF summary where the bullet fragment was not big enough or one of them was insufficient to be properly tested and therefore could not be directly linked to the rifle that was used, allegedly by Tyler Robinson. And so the defense basically made a big splash with that, and the news media ran with it, basically saying that, you know, the. The bullet doesn't match the gun, which is not anywhere close to being true. And so the prosecutors, to your point, went and made some. Some statements, basically saying what I just said without specifically talking about necessarily this case. They referred to the general proposition that a badly degraded piece of evidence, a bullet fragment that's too small, too degraded, it may not be tested, but it doesn't mean that it's excluded either. And that's all the whole point they were making. That's right. So I don't think it's contemptuous. But Judge Graff in SOT5 says that the defense is entitled to a hearing on that.

[Judge Graff (Court Audio)]

Thus, Section 78B6, 302sub2, requires defendant to file an affidavit or statement detailing the facts constituting the contempt, which statement, together with the subsequent court order, forms the basis of the contempt charge. Defendants April 16, 2026 Declaration of Counsel in support of the order to show cause satisfies that requirement. In the declaration, defense counsel identifies the alleged conduct and provides specific examples. Defense counsel asserts that Utah County Attorney Jeff S. Gray and Deputy County Attorney Chris Ballard violated the court's pretrial publicity order by making specific statements to various news outlets, including tmz, USA Today, Fox News, Political Facts, and others. Accordingly, the court grants defendant's motion for order to show cause. The issuance of this order reflects a determination that defendant has made a sufficient preliminary showing under Utah law to warrant further proceedings and does not constitute a finding of contempt.

[Dave Aronberg]

Well, I don't think it was necessary, and I don't Think it's going to go anywhere and I wish he hadn't have done this. So we'll keep following here though on MK True Crime. I want to also touch upon the Carmelo Anthony trial, Phil, before we go to break because that is a hot trial. That's in McKinney, Texas. That's the, the high schooler who's charged with murder for the fatal 2025 stabbing of 17 year old Austin Metcalfe at a Frisco track meet. So he had Metcalf, who was part of a rival team. And so when you had Carmela Anthony, it was raining and came in under their tent and Austin and apparently his twin brother told him to leave. And then essentially you had Carmel Anthony say, you know, see, touch me and see what happens. And then Austin touched him and then Carmela Anthony reached into his back, pull out a knife and stabbed him. He's claiming self defense and there are issues of race because the defendant is black, the victim is white, and it's become just a major media event as you have a lot of people converging and sometimes perhaps even violating the court's gag order to say stop talking about this case. We do have some video of Austin's twin brother Hunter Metcalf on what happened in an interview. Can we play SOT7?

[Hunter Metcalf (Witness)]

There was this kid before I knew his name. Now this kid was sitting under our tent at track. We asked him to move. He started getting aggressive and talking reckless and my brother stepped in and said he need to move. He's like, make me move. Austin grabbed his backpack. This kid, I try to whip around as fast as I could, but I didn't see the stab. But then I look at my, I look at my brother and then I'm not going to talk about the rest. Just, that's, that's just what I saw. I mean, I tried, I tried to

[Phil Holloway]

help him, but it was just senseless.

[Hunter Metcalf (Witness)]

It was, it was really senseless. Really. I don't know why a person would do that to someone just over that little argument. It's just, it's just crazy in this world nowadays how people, people just up and do that.

[Phil Holloway]

You know, that's, it's so sad to hear and see, you know, the twin of the deceased victim reliving this. Of course, brothers and sisters and siblings are always close, but twins are very unique. But you know, you mentioned Dave in the intro to that that, you know, there's the allegation that. And let's just read directly from the police report. You have a police officer Who? Taylor Wetzel, regarding what a witness told him. And this is, quote, Austin had told Anthony that he needed to move out from under their team's tent. Anthony grabbed his bag, opened it and reached inside and proceeded to tell Austin, quote, touch me and see what happens. Now, they didn't really expect that he would have a knife in there. So there was some laying on of hands, so to speak, to try to escort him out. But then he pulls out the knife. And here's the thing. There's this whole thing about it being self defense. You have people marching outside the courthouse, you know, claiming and trying to influence the jury, saying that this is, you know, it's self defense and self defense is legal and all this. You can't avail yourself, Dave, of the legal defense of self defense if you are the initial instigator. And that's what seems to be happening here. You have folks outside that are basically marching and they are chanting these things and they are trying to influence jurors who I believe need to be sequestered because we can't have a fair trial if we have jurors that are influenced by what's going on outside the courthouse.

[Dave Aronberg]

Agreed. Agreed. And this trial is expected to last through mid June, including Saturday's opening statements are expected to begin on June 4th. So we'll keep following her. MK True Crime. Phil, take us to our break.

[Phil Holloway]

All right, Dave, look, as I mentioned in the intro to this segment, coming up, we have a very special treat for you. As we mentioned, while we were in Las Vegas at Crimecon, I, along with my producers Natasha and Maddie, took a tour of Zach Bagan's haunted museum. We saw artifacts from Dr. Jack Kervorkian, the Doctor of Death, the infamous Ted Bundy, Charles Manson, and so much more. Stay tuned. You won't want to miss this special video.

[Dave Aronberg]

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[Phil Holloway (Museum Tour Host)]

Hi guys, I'm Phil holloway with the MK True Crime Show. Guess what? MK True Crime is in Las Vegas for CrimeCon 2026 and we could not be more excited. But before Crimecon even starts, we have a very special tour today. We are visiting Zach Bagan's haunted museum and serial killer exhibit. And it's not just me. I'm joined today by our crack production staff. We have Maddie and Natasha. And these guys are so scared, I had to drag them kicking and screaming from the hotel to get them down here for this today. But look, we are very excited. You guys ready to go get scared? So, all right, here we go.

[Museum Tour Staff / Producer]

We are going to do the oak. So I'm going to have you guys raise your right hand and repeat after me. This building is going to be contained goes spirits and cursed objects. This building is known to contain spirit

[Phil Holloway (Museum Tour Host)]

and spirits and cursed objects.

[Museum Tour Staff / Producer]

And by entering you agree that management by entering you agree that management will not be liable for any actions by the unseen horses. Will not be liable for any actions by the

[Phil Holloway]

same.

[Phil Holloway (Museum Tour Host)]

A Bern will discuss the actual legality of this later on the program.

[Museum Tour Staff / Producer]

Now the artwork that you see on the wall, these are prints of actual paintings. That organ. And they are signed and numbered like orange is over here.

[Phil Holloway (Museum Tour Host)]

Do I want to open the door, Natasha? Do I want.

[Museum Tour Staff / Producer]

Do you want you open the door

[Phil Holloway (Museum Tour Host)]

if I don't make it out? It's been a pleasure Having you guys on the program, We have Dr. Tvorky in his van. Doctor Gforkier's death Victory, which is famous by the way. You would go around euthanizing people, so to speak, in this band.

[Narrator for Dr. Kevorkian Exhibit]

The music that you're hearing right now is composed and performed by Dr. Kevorkian himself. If his patient so chose, he would play this soundtrack and these would be the final sounds that they would hear before they passed away. Inside the van on the you will see replicates of doctors. Both devices were activated by a button that Kegor would give the patient so that they themselves could make the final determination of when they were ready to pass away.

[Phil Holloway (Museum Tour Host)]

This is really. This is really spooky because I'm old enough to remember the news like all like every day about them. Jack Kerworth stories of old people died. And just to see this mock up like this really does give me your creeps, to be honest with you. Yeah, it's the Ted Bundy room. Ted Bundy's murder kid is a gear. All right. So look just right out of the gate. When I walk in this room and I see murder kit, you know what goes through my mind? Nancy Guthrie. Okay.

[Dave Aronberg]

Was.

[Phil Holloway (Museum Tour Host)]

Was the person that we saw on Nancy Guthrie's front point was, was he carrying some kind of a murder kit? You know, a lot of people say that, that it looks like he might. Cuz he had that backpack and everything.

[Museum Tour Staff / Producer]

Yeah. And had the peanut go on.

[Phil Holloway (Museum Tour Host)]

Yeah. I mean, the mask.

[Museum Tour Staff / Producer]

Yeah. Check on these glasses that he wore into the sky. And when I look at that map, you see the holes in it. It makes you wonder if the girls were trying to defend themselves by pulling the mask. So then Pen Bundy, remember that himself, and they left.

[Phil Holloway (Museum Tour Host)]

Yes, yes. Ted Bundy, of course, was trained in law. And as they say, when you represent yourself, you have a fool for a plan. He's very narcissistic.

[Phil Holloway]

Right.

[Phil Holloway (Museum Tour Host)]

The guy was very much a narcissist. Anybody who ever saw any interviews with Ted Bundy can easily pick that out. But he thought very highly of himself. But he was truly one of those people that doesn't have the ability to feel, you know, empathy for other human beings. And that's something that we see in a lot of serial killers because they're sociopaths. Right. But when you see these things, these actual objects that were directly related to someone who's was just infamous like that, it really does give you some sense of connection to that sad history.

[Museum Tour Staff / Producer]

Yeah. Wow.

[Phil Holloway (Museum Tour Host)]

So the glasses were not real glasses. They were fake glasses that he Used as a part of a disguise. That's interesting.

[Museum Tour Staff / Producer]

And the only victim that he would not talk about was 12 year old Kimberly Beach. I saw an interview and the interviewer asked him about her and he just gave her a death glare. And I thought, oh my God.

[Phil Holloway]

Wow.

[Museum Tour Staff / Producer]

Yeah, he didn't want to talk about her.

[Phil Holloway (Museum Tour Host)]

A television. That was Richard Ramirez TV that he had on death row. I didn't know people on Death row had TVs, but I guess he did it. Said it was gifted to a fan. And we've talked on the program about this. I don't know the, the fact that these criminals, these brutal killers have fan clubs that people that just fall over them. Right. We've seen it in. Yeah, in Luigi Mangione and you know, we see it in all these other cases. It's just fascinating that someone who's as evil as Night Stalker Richard Ramirez can have, you know, a fan. People that would come see him and visit him and write to him.

[Museum Tour Staff / Producer]

John Gacy's trial is really interesting because the fence wanted him state of an insanity defense, basically. And he approved of it completely. And he actually wanted to call for a mistrial because he did not agree with the insanity defense.

[Phil Holloway (Museum Tour Host)]

Well, I, I don't think John Wayne Gacy was insane in the legal sense because he knew right from wrong. He knew what he was doing

[Phil Holloway]

and

[Phil Holloway (Museum Tour Host)]

he just enjoyed it. Just. Well, you see, Richard Ramirez says, quote, I love to kill people. So sometimes, you know, these people, we might call them crazy or insane when we just use it in the vernacular sense. But clearly these people do have their wits about them. They know what they're doing and it's very much intentional.

[Museum Tour Staff / Producer]

The only thing they can get me for is running a funeral ballroom and not a life service.

[Phil Holloway (Museum Tour Host)]

Wow, we've got Charles Manson in here. Oh, and you know the Manson family, right? Helter Skelter was one of the shows, the movie sort of that I grew up on as a kid. And so Charles Manson, you know, not far from where we work, we are right here in Las Vegas. He had his hat out, out in 10th pound in California, the base of operations where he had basically his cult followers and him hanging out and he would essentially dispatch them to do his bid. And we have actual bow fragments and his prison shirt.

[Museum Tour Staff / Producer]

And there's kind of an interesting story about the dentures.

[Phil Holloway (Museum Tour Host)]

Let's hear it.

[Museum Tour Staff / Producer]

Charles Manson was taking a shower and a prisoner stole his teeth. And the next day that prisoner was released and sent Charles Manson that note that said, I have your teeth. Ha ha. Thought And Charles Manson sent him back that picture, but drew swastikas on the front teeth and said, give me back my teeth. Begging for teeth, please.

[Phil Holloway (Museum Tour Host)]

Here's Samuel Little, literally. Here he is. This is his cremains right here in this bag. Sam Little died on December 30, 2020. Confirmed by the FBI to be America's most prolific serial killer. Between 1970 and 2005, he confessed to killing 98 people. So they, I think, confirmed most of that, like 60. But he's confessed to killing. So I wonder when. When these serial killers confess like this, do they sometimes inflate that number because they're bragging because they think it does something for their ego? Or maybe do they. Or do they deflate the number a little bit because they don't want people to know how many they've actually killed? I tend to think that because most of them are so narcissistic and proud of their work, they might tend to inflate it a little bit because they think it makes them more successful, I guess, in the serial killer community. I'm not sure I want to go in here.

[Museum Tour Staff / Producer]

It is truly an amazing exhibit. A lot of heart and soul put into this room.

[Phil Holloway (Museum Tour Host)]

Ed gaines barnes. It's kind of how to give me Texas Chainsaw Massacre kind of vibes. That was the shuttle. That it? He actually used to dig people up, I guess after he buries them.

[Museum Tour Staff / Producer]

No, he got them out. The freshly fresh body put in the cemetery. So he would go there with that shovel. He would dig them up with that shovel, this cauldron. And Dean would boil people's inside in this cauldron. And also in the 50s, after Eddie was put in jail, actually in mental hospital, Ms. Stuff went for auction. And a lady actually bought this and she put it in her and Gaba. Oriel could have loved it. But the funny thing is, when she passed away, it was so heavy. Her grandson Kevin moved this program and nearly every single one of them passed away like a mysterious. Hey, are you guys going in the basement?

[Phil Holloway (Museum Tour Host)]

Yeah, outside. Natasha, can we handle the basement?

[Museum Tour Staff / Producer]

I don't know. I don't know.

[Phil Holloway (Museum Tour Host)]

Going to the basement.

[Museum Tour Staff / Producer]

I remember the basement being very okay.

[Phil Holloway (Museum Tour Host)]

I mean, if anything bad's going to happen, it's probably going to be in the basement.

[Museum Tour Staff / Producer]

Yeah, Yeah. I have to lead the way. The epicenter of energy in the museum.

[Phil Holloway (Museum Tour Host)]

Natasha and Maddie get to go first, so if something happens, I can run.

[Museum Tour Staff / Producer]

Yeah, I'm right here.

[SimpliSafe Advertiser]

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[Museum Tour Staff / Producer]

I don't like it down here either,

[Phil Holloway (Museum Tour Host)]

Spirit fox. So I need your spirit talking to us.

[Museum Tour Staff / Producer]

So I don't know if being sarcastic.

[Phil Holloway (Museum Tour Host)]

Well, I was being sarcastic, so maybe the spirit.

[Museum Tour Staff / Producer]

All right, we're going to leave now. You like to say goodbye to our guest.

[Phil Holloway (Museum Tour Host)]

Question posed here are ghosts real? Immediately after leaving that basement, I'm thinking yes.

[Museum Tour Staff / Producer]

Yeah. And now we're gonna go in here. First.

[Phil Holloway (Museum Tour Host)]

Feel a little 1920s speak easy.

[Museum Tour Staff / Producer]

That's an owl. To go through all preserved far space Jay's granddaughter decided she was going to auction off some of her grandfather's possessions. And one of them beautiful dresser and mirror over here on this side of the room. That was in his bedroom where he died of cardiac arrest in Palm Island, Florida, 1.25.19. And then to the left that famous photo of him and his son. He actually gifted that photo to his son after his son's brain surgery. And on the back of that he wrote to my dear son Albert from his new Al. That is the astral original photo. And then there was a garage burned that the granddaughter that her grandfather left

[Phil Holloway (Museum Tour Host)]

in the road Al Capone cigar.

[Museum Tour Staff / Producer]

Last place Natalie would have seen a w was Squidder yard. And Zach owns art backs from that yard. Oh w.

[Phil Holloway (Museum Tour Host)]

It's long believed that Robert Wagner was responsible for the death guest

[Museum Tour Staff / Producer]

that there was proven except thing wasn't Christopher walking. And that's the size of the yacht too. So it makes you wonder if they were arguing like that somebody not unless they were still drunk out of it. They didn't wipe up. But you think somebody would never stop it. Yeah, it's like the Lynette Hooker Brian Hooker case. Yeah.

[Phil Holloway]

Yeah.

[Phil Holloway (Museum Tour Host)]

History repeats itself.

[Museum Tour Staff / Producer]

Like Matt and Mark were talking about marine forensics on their show in the well and how the ocean just really undertakes here the decomposition. And that's why some new people lost at sea never balanced right.

[Phil Holloway (Museum Tour Host)]

I felt something about my leg over here.

[Museum Tour Staff / Producer]

Did you?

[Phil Holloway (Museum Tour Host)]

I'm not not joking either. I'm just listening to euphoria about ph oceanography, physics and something like something bumped my leg.

[Phil Holloway]

There's nothing back here to bump.

[Museum Tour Staff / Producer]

Some people say they get their arms grabbed or ball

[Phil Holloway (Museum Tour Host)]

rattle.

[Museum Tour Staff / Producer]

All right, you guys.

[Phil Holloway (Museum Tour Host)]

Well, this wraps up our very special tour of Zack Bagan's haunted museum and the killer. The serial killer exhibit was really something else. Natasha, Maddie, what did you guys think?

[Museum Tour Staff / Producer]

Oh, so amazing that cool that has preserved history here.

[Phil Holloway (Museum Tour Host)]

Maddie, any particular thoughts from you? Because I saw you. You were like me. You were kind of just easing around, peeking around the corners.

[Museum Tour Staff / Producer]

You know, I thought, okay, clowns were my personal biggest scary moment. The other rooms were heavy and dark. But the clowns really jump scared me.

[Phil Holloway (Museum Tour Host)]

I mean, I don't like creepy clowns. And every time I went around the corner, there was a creepy clown either standing there looking like it was about to jump at me or actually jumping out at me. But I tell you what, if you ever get to Las Vegas, this has to be a must do. I've been here many times, and admittedly I wasn't even aware of this place, but now every time I come back, I've gotten come here, even though I swear something bumped me in my leg when we were in that one room. The Nablic Wood room, as I call it. I don't know, but lots of places. Particularly the basement.

[Museum Tour Staff / Producer]

Oh, basement.

[Phil Holloway (Museum Tour Host)]

I just felt. I felt something was awful about that room. And whether it's spirits or maybe my imagination or just the dark, confined space or maybe all of it, but it was a really interesting experience. It's something that makes me really think about all the history that literally.

[Museum Tour Staff / Producer]

Yeah, yeah. You're in Vegas.

[Phil Holloway (Museum Tour Host)]

All right, now it's back to Crimecon. That's a wrap.

[Dave Aronberg]

Since he got out, bad things keep happening.

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Why?

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Why?

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Oh, no.

[Phil Holloway]

That's why.

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[Phil Holloway]

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[Dave Aronberg]

welcome back to MK True Crime. Now it's time for our closing arguments. Phil, take it away.

[Phil Holloway]

Yeah, thanks, Dave. Look, we talked earlier in the program some about the Carmelo Anthony trial and of course, jury selection in the beginning of that trial getting underway. So it got me thinking about these high profile cases, so many of which that we cover here on the program and that you see covered all through the media. And so the question becomes, you know, at what point do jurors perhaps need to be sequestered? That means kept isolated. Now, in the Carmelo Anthony case, they're not being isolated at this point. They're not being sequenced, sequestered. But we have reports, and this is coming from independent journalist Sarah Fields, who posted on X earlier this week. And she says, quote, I witnessed sheriff's deputies escorting an African American woman out of the courthouse hallway. She was wearing a pink shirt with lace sleeves. Deputies were accusing her of jury tampering. I later learned she was allegedly connected to the Anthony family and had reportedly been caught recording members of the jury pool. And of course, we have lots of protesting and we have chanting and we have lots of demonstrations both in favor of the prosecution and in favor of the defense. And this is going on right outside the courthouse. And this is a very sort of small community. And so it raises the question of, you know, how can, how can we ensure, how can maybe a judge help to ensure a fair trial, fair to the defendant, fair to the prosecution, and quite frankly, fair to the public? Because the public ultimately has a great interest in seeing not only that justice is done, but that it's done fairly and it's done transparently and that we can rely hopefully on the validity and the accuracy and the truthfulness of jury verdicts, because that's what verdict means. It's based on Latin and it means literally speak the truth. So a judge has to make a decision in this case and he says he will consider a sequestration at some point. Now, the sequestering a jury is no light decision, but it is the court's shield and it's Deployed only when the very integrity of the trial hangs in the balance. It becomes necessary sometimes in high profile cases where media storms, like in this case rage outside the courtroom walls, when every television, every phone, every social media feed threatens to literally poison the minds of 12 ordinary citizens with rumor, speculation, outrage, or even possibility of threats. So sequestration is required when, you know, the crime is sensational or the defendant is famous, or, you know, public passions are so fierce and so inflamed that jurors literally can't walk the streets without hearing the case argued in every coffee shop and in all the headlines. Sequestration is essential when there's even a whisper of jury tampering, intimidation, or threats from those who would bend the verdict to their very will. Why do we do this? Well, we do it because our Constitution demands a fair trial. This is not a public opinion poll. This is a criminal trial. And jurors must decide solely on the evidence that they hear and see coming from the courtroom, from the witnesses, and from the items of evidence admitted in the trial. They don't need to base their decision on the latest cable news segment or the angry posts of strangers. Without sequestration, outside influence can creep in like a silent poison, turning impartial citizens into partisans, swaying them with fear or favor before they even reach the deliberation room. So in this case, we have no other choice but to isolate them in a secure hotel. We strip away their phones, we take away their TVs, their newspapers and their social media. We literally place them under guard so that the only voices they hear are the witnesses and the lawyers and the judge's instructions. Yes, it's a sacrifice, to be sure, but sometimes it's a necessary one to protect the sanctity of the verdict and to ensure that when justice speaks, it speaks with clarity, untainted by the noise of the outside world. This is not meant to punish jurors. This is preservation. This is the moment when the court says, not here, not now, not on my watch. If we fail to sequester when it's necessary, we do not merely risk a mistrial. We risk the very foundation of the rule of law itself. Dave.

[Dave Aronberg]

Well said, my friend. Thank you, Phil. And for my closing statement, well, I read an article on CNN.com about how the soundtrack of our summer is being completely hijacked by, quote, sad girls. The charts are packed with pop stars crying over synth beats. And I have to ask, what exactly do these young women have to be so miserable about? They have youth, beauty, generational talent, and more money than Most people earn in multiple lifetimes. I mean, look at the lineup. You got. Olivia Rodrigo, 23 years old, Ariana Grande, 32, Charlie XCX at 33 and her new single SS26. Charlie. Charlie is literally droning the world is going to end. No hope for any of it. And singing about walking a Runway straight to hell. She even dropped a track called Rock Music just to tell us she thinks the dance floor is dead. Now, aside from becoming boring stereotypes of the tortured artist, these celebrities are completely devastated by life. What hope do the rest of us have? Am I supposed to be weeping into my gas station burrito because a multi millionaire pop star is having a moody summer? Because if they can't find a reason to smile with a platinum record and a flawless skincare routine, then the rest of us are completely doomed. But look, if you want a real lesson in staying powered, just stop staring at the sad girls and take a page from Madonna. She is 67 years old, still completely relevant and still out there dominating decades after she started. Do you know why? Because she proved a long time ago that pure moodiness does not equal longevity. You can't build an empire just by being sad in a major key. So let Charlie and Ariana and Olivia have their summer of tears. While they're singing about how nothing is going to save us, the real icons are out there laughing all the way to the bank. Madonna actually put it best. If your dance floor feels dead, stop crying about it and just change the music. That's my closing statement. Phil, it's been a pleasure today. I hope you've enjoyed it as much as I have and I hope the audience has enjoyed it as well. That's the MK True Crime show. Thank you to my co host Phil Holloway and thank you for joining us. Have a great week

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[Phil Holloway (Museum Tour Host)]

Stop. This is SimpliSafe.

[Phil Holloway]

Police are on the way.

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