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MK True Crime
Justin Timberlake’s Arrest Footage, Cop on Cop Shooting Trial, and American Idol Contestant Accused of Murdering Wife, with Julie Grant
01:04:03
MK True Crime hosts Phil Holloway and Ashleigh Merchant join the show to discuss the trial of former police officer Kelsey Fitzsimmons accused of assault with a deadly weapon against a colleague, the prosecution and defense dueling narratives, the difference between a bench trial and a jury trial, Justin Timberlake’s DWI arrest footage from 2024 released, the legal battle behind the footage release, Julie Grant, award-winning journalist and attorney, joins Phil and Ashleigh to discuss the case of music pastor Caleb Flynn and his indictment on murder charges in the death of his wife, what Flynn’s 911 call and bodycam footage reveal about the former American Idol contestant, why his burglary gone wrong story doesn’t add up, why no charges have been filed in the death of University of Alabama student Jimmy Gracey, what a full autopsy may reveal, and more. Phil Holloway: https://x.com/PhilHollowayEsq Ashleigh Merchant: https://www.criminaldefenseattorneysmarietta.com Julie...
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- [00:00]
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Ashley Merchant
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- [00:50]
Phil Holloway
Welcome to MK True Crime. I'm Phil Holloway. I'm a criminal lawyer, I'm a former prosecutor and I'm an ex cop and I've been around the justice system now for almost 40 years. And so I think I know what a great true crime show is when I see one. And we've got one today. Here's what's on our MK True Crime docket. We have a cop on cop shooting trial involving former police officer Kelsey Fitzsimmons up in Massachusetts. That trial got underway this week. We'll discuss the different narratives being floated by the prosecution and the defense and what's at play in this bench trial. It's not a jury trial. We'll get into all that and then some. And we also have new footage from Justin Timberlake's 2024 DUI arrest. The singer's video has been kept under wraps for a while. It's been the subject of a legal battle to keep it under wraps, but it's now out, or at least most of it is. The question is, did he get off too easy? We'll discuss and later we'll be joined by Julie Grant, one award winning TV host, journalist and attorney. She'll be with us to discuss the American Idol contestant who has been indicted in the murder of his wife and more. I'm very pleased and happy to be joined today by my friend and my colleague, co host and even sometimes co counsel Ashley Merchant, criminal defense lawyer out of Atlanta, Georgia. Ashley, look, before we get into the trial of Kelsey Fitzsimmons, I just wanted to take a minute to say thank you to you and Dave, for covering for me doing a little extra duty last week while I was out on spring break. And I just want to say thank you guys for doing that. And by the way, a little later on in the show, I'll tell you, Ashley, about the new member of my family that came home with me from spring break.
- [02:38]
Ashley Merchant
I can't wait.
- [02:39]
Phil Holloway
I know it's going to be fun. All right, actually, we got Kelsey Fitzsimmons, right? So this is a trial, bench trial going on now up in Massachusetts. And just by way of background. So she is a former North Andover police officer. She's standing trial on charges that she tried to shoot her colleague, a fellow officer who was in her home serving her with a restraining order that had been taken out by her ex fiance and father of her child. She's 29 years old. She faces a single count of assault with a dangerous weapon. She, of course, has pleaded not guilty. Prosecutors have said the victim, who is also a north end of her police officer, was in the home with two of his other colleagues. As I said, they were serving this restraining order. The allegations are that she went into her bedroom and was getting clothes together, presumably for the child and for herself, maybe, and that she, while nobody was looking, she went for a gun. And allegedly, actually, she pointed it at her friend and colleague, who in turn shot her in the chest, causing very, very serious injuries. But she recovered and now she's on trial. Actually, there's a lot going on here. Uh, we've got things like no body camera to talk about. We've got things like the bench trial versus the non birth, I guess, the jury trial, which is the standard. We have a very rare bench trial in a case like this. We've got all those legal issues. But I want to talk with you about some of the background here. We've got allegations that there were mental health issues, that she was suffering from depression, postpartum depression specifically. In fact, that's part of her defense. And I know that you are very up to speed on that, and I want you to help all of us get up to speed on it. But first, let's take a look at a snippet of the prosecution opening statement as well as the defense. Can we run slot one and two?
- [04:38]
Prosecutor
The defendant raised her gun, leveled it at Pat Noonan's face, and pulled the trigger. There are two reasons that Pat Noonan is alive today. The first is being that Ms. Fitzsimmons gun, while it had a full magazine, it did not have a round in the chamber. The second reason is that Pat Newman, based on his years and decades of training and experience, reacted in a calm, professional way when he protected both himself and everyone else in that house. The credible evidence in this case. The only credible evidence in this
- [05:28]
Defense Lawyer
will
- [05:28]
Prosecutor
be that Kelsey Fitzsimmons raised the gun and pointed it at officer Noonan. She pulled the trigger when she did this. The credible evidence in this case. Case, your honor, will prove beyond a reasonable doubt that the defendant is doing.
- [05:50]
Defense Lawyer
Kelsey. No, Kelsey, no. You don't say that when you're staring at the muzzle of a gun pointed at you. You say that to a person who has a gun to their head. And you don't shoot someone in the chest when they are seeking clearly to only harm themselves. And when you do that, you quickly realize, your honor, that you need to adjust the narrative to save yourself. You will see that that's evidence of her state of mind, that she has no desire to harm any of her colleagues and friends. She's got no motive. She's got no reason to, and her actions are completely inconsistent with that. She's trying to get rid of them so she can have a minute in her room. Not to do things that every young mother might want to do, but to get her gun and kill herself because her life's over in her mind.
- [06:56]
Phil Holloway
All right, Ashley, look, they. These lawyers did a good job of sort of setting up the. I guess, the diametrically opposing views on how to look at the evidence in this case from a purely legal and maybe an academic perspective. It's kind of interesting to see this defense unfold. Essentially, they're saying that, yes, she. She went after the gun. She held the gun, she attempted to fire the gun, but she was in the process of not assaulting anyone, but trying to harm herself. Okay. And so that's a little bit unusual, something we don't see every day. So can you us up to speed, Ashley, on what are the mental health issues that underlie this defense?
- [07:40]
Ashley Merchant
Yeah, there's a lot. There's a lot to unload. And I think understanding the history of this relationship is really important to see how we got here and especially why they chose to do a bench trial and what their real issues are for the judge here. So Fitzsimmons actually has a history. She was hired by this local police department in North Andover back in the spring of 2024. She was engaged to a fellow law enforcement officer that. He was a firefighter, though, and his last name is Elain. So it's. They had a son. So they had a son in February of 2025. And really what the catalyst for Fitzsimmons mental health issues and her complications was an incident that happened when she was pregnant back in summer of 2024, alongside of the officer, that she actually had this interaction with the alleged victim in this case that's on trial, Officer Noonan, she responded to the scene of a murder suicide that involved a mother and her infant child. She was 20 weeks pregnant at the time. And she said that this was devastating. This incident was devastating to her ment. And it led really, which I thought was interesting to her and Officer Noonan to develop something more like a friendship. You know, this bonded them in some way. She was very open about her struggles that she's had with postpartum depression. She was diagnosed formally with that in March of 2025, which is just a few weeks after giving birth. And she struggled with that a lot. She was involuntarily committed, which for those that don't know, that's when you really are a danger to yourself or others. You can actually be committed by the government, by the state. And they committed her to Lowell General Hospital. She was committed for about 12, which is typical. And what it sounds like reading between the lines is she was committed and then it merged into a voluntary stay. So she probably was stabilized and then decided she was gonna stay. But law enforcement had been called to her home earlier that day saying that she had some mental health issues. And then she had to surrender her gun. She was in. Her license to carry was suspended. But ultimately, after receiving treatment at this facility, she actually was released. So the psychiatrist said that she was okay. She was released, and she was even cleared Phil. To return to the job in of this year. So her license was restored, her license to carry a weapon, and she was cleared to return back to work. But after that happened, this incident. So she's cleared on June 18th to return to work. She's supposed to go back July 4th. In between these two, on June 24th, her ex fiance, her baby's father, Elaine, he files for a restraining order. And that's why the police were at her house that day serving that restraining order.
- [10:08]
Phil Holloway
Well, what were they saying in the. I guess the fiance, what was he saying was the basis for this restraining order? And let me just say this first, before you answer that. I. I've seen oftentimes, I've seen people misuse this process of, you know, restraining orders. They sometimes will use it because they want to get the upper hand and maybe a divorce or sometimes it's used to get the upper hand in A custody situation. And you know, look, a lot of times in many states, if there's a father who has not, you know, legitimated a child, or if there's a child that's born out of wedlock, that father's rights are oftentimes very much limited through the traditional process. And it seems to me like the defense is laying the groundwork here to say, look, there really was no real issue that this whole thing was started by the ex fiance and that the police department then got involved and then the police department made it worse by not having body cameras and by essentially shooting a woman in the chest who was having a mental health crisis. And then to cover that, they charged her with felonious assault. That's kind of what I see the defense doing in this case.
- [11:25]
Ashley Merchant
Yeah, I can totally see them setting that up. And when I read the facts of the case, I agree. That's what it looks like. And you and I have had those cases where, you know, people who maybe they're not married but they have a custody issue. We call it sort of a poor man's divorce. If you don't want to hire a divorce lawyer to get custody changed or you don't want to wait for your day in court, you can file this emergency petition and just kind of walk in our, our viewers and our listeners to what that means. So when you have an ex parte protective order, it's, it's immediate, it's an emergency basis. So the cops are going to go, they're going to serve that immediately. Everybody takes it super, super seriously.
- [11:58]
Phil Holloway
Let me pause you real quick. Let me pause you. Ex parte is Latin and it means one sided. So this is a process that you're describing that happens sort of almost in secret. It's the person seeking the petition or the restraining order and the other side is not even there.
- [12:15]
Ashley Merchant
Right, right. Yeah. And there's a reason, you know, there's a good reason to have it, but it is often abused. And so what the law says is if you think you're in fear or you're in danger or your loved one, your child's in danger, you can file ex parte, which, you know, outside of the other party to get this order. And so it's super secret. The other side doesn't know what's happening, doesn't know it's hits you kind of out of nowhere. And so you can do that and then later on, usually 30 days later, then you go to court and then you actually have to bring proof. So they really rubber stamp these Quite frankly. And, you know, there's good reason they do, because people who are really in fear go and have, you know, have issues. But the problem is we do see a lot of abuse. And so when, you know, and I'm not saying that Mr. Elian was abusing the process, but it is perfect and ripe for abuse. And so, you know, perhaps he wanted to see his child. Perhaps he didn't have any custodial rights because they weren't married. Maybe he's not on the birth certificate. And so the easy, easiest, fastest way to establish rights is through this process. You know, people use this also to get custody of a house, to get property, get cars, things like that, because this ex parte order can get you emergency access to things. So. So he apparently what happened was he was in Maine with her.
- [13:21]
Julie Grant
So.
- [13:22]
Ashley Merchant
So he's in Maine with his own siblings and some mutual friends. And the allegations are that Fitzsimmons actually hit him in the face with a closed fist. Now, we haven't seen any evidence of that. Apparently he feared for his life, left the location, stayed at a hotel and was drunk and physically trying to hit him. So that's what he relied on to get this affidavit, get this ex parte affidavit to say that he could have custody of the child and she was not allowed to have the children. So then the police are charged with serving this. So they go out to Fitzsimmons house and they're actually trying to serve this. And we've got some inclination that maybe the officers were telling her things like, you're never going to see your child again. You know, you're a bad mom. Just some things that sort of might have set her off, particularly given her history of her mental health. But the big kicker, what this ex. What this ex fiance baby daddy said is that she had threatened to kill herself and the baby while pregnant. And so, boom, those magic words make the judge. Yep, magic words make the judge say, okay, take the child. Take the child. And, you know, she's saying that these are all false allegations. Definitely, you know, that she was betrayed and that this is. This is a misrepresentation. She's adamant that she was not a danger to herself and that she was definitely not a danger to her son. So I think those facts are going to come up. And, you know, Phil, one of the things I kept thinking is, why would these lawyers waive a jury trial and go to a bench trial? Because we've talked about that. I mean, why would you do that? That's not usually what you want to do. And I can't help but wonder if there's a lot of this type of evidence that they want the judge to hear.
- [14:56]
Phil Holloway
Yeah, I think that's it, Ashley. The defense doesn't want these. Let's just call it the stuff around the periphery that, you know, it's interesting, it's salacious things like, they don't want that to necessarily sway a jury. And the thought process is, okay, let's just let the judge look at this. And the judge will be able to, based on the judge's, you know, years of legal experience and hearing trials and hearing motions and things like that, he'll be able to put all that out of his mind and not really get bogged down in the sort of the details that surround this very toxic relationship. I don't think anybody denies that it's a toxic relationship. And let's be clear, too. We're not accusing anyone of manipulating the restraining order process, but we're pointing out that that seems to be the direction that this defense is going. In there, as you mentioned, there's a legitimate place in the system for these types of things, particularly in emergencies, where there's a true issue of someone whether or not they are a danger to themselves or to others. So there's a legitimate place for it. On the other hand, legitimately, these things sometimes are abused. Interestingly enough, though, we've got. From a purely legal perspective. Let's talk about that. We've got the allegation that this officer Noonan, he's the alleged victim of the aggravated assault or the assault with a weapon. Even though the defendant, Fitzsimmons, was shot in the chest, Noonan is considered the victim. Okay, so they're saying, the prosecutor is that Noonan shot Fitzsimmons in self defense. The allegations are. And we don't have body camera, which I want to talk about, but the allegations were that she was kneeling on the ground in one of the rooms, and it was just her and this officer Noonan. There were apparently two other officers present in the home. Why they weren't there in this doorway, I don't know. But there were no other witnesses to this. But the allegations are that she was sort of folding laundry on the floor of the bedroom, and Noonan was standing in the doorway of the bedroom. He saw Fitzsimmons face towards him, allegedly, and then lunge toward an area behind a door. And then he says, Noonan says that Fitzsimmons reappeared with a gun and pointed it directly at him. Noonan and so then, of course, he fired one shot that apparently missed, and then he fired a second shot striking her in the chest. And so that forms. What we have is a. Essentially it's a he said, she said, we don't have any, we don't have any physical evidence or anything to back it up. The defense doesn't contest, Ashley, that she was holding the gun or that she was trying to pull the trigger. The only thing they contest is what she was trying to do with the gun. So, look, I can see honestly, if I'm the judge, and let's just say I have to decide whether to issue an arrest warrant. The burden of proof for an arrest warrant is called probable cause. It's a very low standard compared to the proof beyond a reasonable doubt doubt standard that you would have to prove at trial. So if I'm the judge and I'm, I'm deciding this case because there's no jury there, it's a judge, it's a bench trial, a judge only trial. And, and I'm thinking, okay, it's a he said, she said. How am I going to get past reasonable doubt? Because that's what it is. It's a doubt for which a reason can be attached. And honestly, what the defense lawyer said in his opening statement. But, you know, why would you, basically, if someone is pointing a gun at you and you're a police officer, why would you say, you know, what he said to her? It's almost like he's pleading with her not to hurt herself versus him taking immediate action to defend himself. Welcome your thoughts on it, but I'm wondering if that's not enough to create reasonable doubt in the mind of this judge.
- [18:55]
Ashley Merchant
Well, and I can't help but think, Phil, that the defense lawyers in this case probably had an understanding of what type of a judge they're in front of and how that judge views reasonable doubt. I'm sure they did their homework on that. It's very risky, though, to waive a jury trial, because if you think about it, you've got the right to have 12 people be convinced beyond a reasonable doubt that you did something, and then the judge really can also direct a verdict at the end of that. So if the judge doesn't think that there's sufficient evidence, they can still cut the trial short. So it's a very risky move to do something like that. Particularly. One of the things that really stuck out to me was what you mentioned earlier, the fact that there was no body camera. In my experience, the last, I don't know, five to 10 years. Jurors really want body camera. They are very suspect when there's no body camera. And I've tried cases where the officer said, oh, I forgot to turn it on, or, oh, I saved it wrong, or maybe the mic didn't work or something like that, you know, some equipment failure. And jurors hold that against officers? Yes, they. Yeah, they really don't like that. Where judges, I feel like, would be a lot more forgiving because the judges are more involved in. Oh, well, it's a budgeted, you know, maybe I know that these officers never have body cam, and the officers really want it. So that was really risky to me because I think a jury would really, really bite on that because, you know, wouldn't it be simple if we had body cam? Then it wouldn't be a he said, she said, right?
- [20:08]
Phil Holloway
It sure wouldn't. It would be. Would even necessarily be a trial. We would know. I want to talk before we play the video of the alleged victim. Officer Noonan. I want to run slot three, which is the ex fiance, Justin, who says that he feared for his son. And I want to talk to you about the question I have after we run it.
- [20:29]
Prosecutor
I told her that was not comfortable. I did not feel comfortable being. Being alone with you. I wanted to make sure my son was okay, and I feared that his life was in danger at some point. Did you make your way to North Andover? I did, yes.
- [20:44]
Ashley Merchant
Why?
- [20:46]
Prosecutor
I felt that my son's wife was in grave danger and the imminent harm may come to him in the hands of Kelsey.
- [20:53]
Phil Holloway
Okay. So there he is, especially so. So he's explaining, you know, why he took out the restraining order, but in terms of this criminal charge against her, he wasn't there. He didn't see what happened. Ashley, how is this relevant?
- [21:08]
Ashley Merchant
I mean, that would be something that I would definitely argue. It's not relevant whether or not he thought that she was a danger to. To the child. It's really setting the stage, though. And the rules of evidence are a lot more relaxed when there's a bench trial, when there' judge and not a jury. Most of the rules of evidence are designed to keep information that a jury can't sift through. So you don't have those issues when you've got a judge. When you only have a bench trial, you don't have to worry about, you know, a jury being prejudiced by it. In theory, a judge is supposed to be able to separate out the bad evidence. So we see a much more relaxed version of the rules of evidence. But you know, when I was listening to him, I just. It didn't make sense to me. And as a parent, it just didn't make sense, you know, why he took the steps he did in the order that he was taking them. So, you know, she's trying to meet with him. Earlier that day, the day that he obtained the order, Fitzsimmons made several attempts to meet with him. He's obviously denying that. But then he says he eventually went into town because he said he felt that his son's life was in great danger, but he was never really able to link up why that day he feared for his son versus the day before or the day before that. You know, what was it that that day caused him to have some specific fear for his son? And that's one of the things that I think is really lacking from his testimony. It doesn't help if I was the decider of. Of, you know, fact, if I was the trier of fact, wouldn't help me decide what I needed to decide.
- [22:24]
Phil Holloway
And I wouldn't let it in either. If I was the triage. You know, look, you're. You're not wrong at all about the relaxed rules of evidence and all this. Interestingly enough, if I were the judge, I might be more inclined to let that in if there's a jury, so it can kind of set the stage for all this. But if I'm the judge, I'm like, I don't want to hear it. I don't need to. If he wasn't there and if he didn't see the shooting and he doesn't know mechanically how this went down, I don't need to hear from him.
- [22:45]
Ashley Merchant
It's not relevant. Right.
- [22:46]
Phil Holloway
So, speaking of which, now this. We do have some testimony that I think is, you know, is going to be perhaps the most critical testimony in the trial so far. And if it's. If it sways the judge, if the judge believes this, this could amount to a conviction for her. We have the victim, alleged victim, Officer Noonan SOT4, where he says she pointed the gun right at him and pulled the trigger.
- [23:12]
Officer Noonan
I could tell she was getting. Getting upset. She started to shake. And I said, listen, you know, court date is in two weeks. It'll. It'll be over before you know it.
- [23:26]
Prosecutor
Did something happen next?
- [23:28]
Officer Noonan
Yes. She was on one knee when she was wrapping up the clothes, and she pushed off with. With her left foot and lunged behind the door frame. So to my left, to her right.
- [23:40]
Ashley Merchant
Okay.
- [23:40]
Prosecutor
Could you see what was there from where you were?
- [23:42]
Officer Noonan
Not from my Perspective.
- [23:45]
Prosecutor
What happened after she went behind the door frame?
- [23:48]
Officer Noonan
She reappeared with a gun and pointed it right at me and pulled the trigger.
- [23:53]
Prosecutor
Can you describe or show us how she did that?
- [23:57]
Officer Noonan
Yep. So when she came around the frame here, she, she came up and click, okay, where was it pointed my face.
- [24:07]
Phil Holloway
So there's nothing about his testimony, at least in my view, that suggests that he's not telling the truth. But I guess the question is, could he be mistaken about where she was headed with the muzzle of that firearm? Actually.
- [24:21]
Ashley Merchant
Right. He definitely could have been mistaken. I mean, she could have been trying to kill herself, which is what she says she was doing. She could have been out of her right mind. He also, you know, we talk a lot about perception. He could have perceived everything that's happening in a very highly traumatic event differently. I mean everybody perceives something a little bit differently. That's why we all leave an event and explain it a little bit differently. So you little nuances, you could potentially think that both parties were telling the truth, but maybe they perceived it a little bit differently. In her mind, she was trying to kill herself. In his mind, she was coming at him, you know, and somewhere the truth is in the middle. That's possible. I think the judge is going to have a hard time, but I would have a hard time convicting, but I'm also a softie. I would have a hard time convicting this, this mother, you know, without some other evidence for me. And he said, she said, you're never going to get a conviction.
- [25:07]
Phil Holloway
Look, that's, that's, no, I'm, look, I'm squarely in that camp because in the absence of some other arrest, the tie goes to the defendant. In my view, because of the high burden of proof we have. And this is also, by the way, this is why we have body worn cameras in law enforcement.
- [25:24]
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- [27:29]
Phil Holloway
We've got Justin Timberlake and his 202024 DUI arrest. We have brand new hot off the presses. Well, not really. It was from a couple years ago. But we have new video. Let's take a look at SOT5. This is Justin Timberlake explaining that he's Justin Timberlake.
- [27:48]
Police Officer (Justin Timberlake DUI)
So the reason for the stop is because you're keep veering off to the left and then you're not stopping at the stop signs.
- [27:54]
Ashley Merchant
Yeah, sorry about that.
- [27:57]
Police Officer (Justin Timberlake DUI)
Is this your vehicle? Whose vehicle is it?
- [27:59]
Ashley Merchant
Yeah, it's just a rental.
- [28:01]
Police Officer (Justin Timberlake DUI)
It's a rental. Okay. Do you have any registration with it? Do you know if they can put it in the glove box? How long you renting it for?
- [28:16]
Ashley Merchant
Just for a couple days.
- [28:17]
Police Officer (Justin Timberlake DUI)
What are you visiting?
- [28:19]
Justin Timberlake
Yeah, I'm on tour.
- [28:21]
Police Officer (Justin Timberlake DUI)
What are you doing?
- [28:23]
Ashley Merchant
I'm on the. A world tour.
- [28:26]
Police Officer (Justin Timberlake DUI)
A what?
- [28:27]
Ashley Merchant
A world tour.
- [28:28]
Defense Lawyer
Doing what?
- [28:32]
Ashley Merchant
Hard to explain. World tour. I'm Justin Timberlake.
- [28:46]
Police Officer (Justin Timberlake DUI)
What's, what's your name?
- [28:48]
Ashley Merchant
Justin Timberlake.
- [28:50]
Phil Holloway
So look, in my opinion, that particular video, we will. We'll look at some more in a moment. But that particular piece of it where he had a hard time explaining what, what he means by being on a world tour that has some. Carries some weight but just sort of to set the stage here. This is back From June of 2024, he left the American Hotel in the Hamptons behind some friends who are. Another car he's pulled over in Sag Harbor. Long Island. Police said he ran a stop sign and failed to stay on the right side of the road. He told the arresting officers he had one martini. And as you saw there, Ashley, he had to explain that he is Justin Timberlake.
- [29:30]
Ashley Merchant
I think he was dumbfounded. You know, like, how do I explain this? You really not know who I am? Are you messing with me? It's one of those moments where he probably wondered, are you messing with me? But what stuck out to me legally is he wasn't slurring his words. He seemed completely fine. He's driving a rental car. That makes perfect sense.
- [29:45]
Narrator/Host (possibly Ashley or Phil)
Sense.
- [29:45]
Ashley Merchant
I really like six, though, where he talks about the sobriety test being hard, because they are hard. If we could play that. 1, 1000, 2, 1000, 3, 1000, 4, 1000, 5, 1000.
- [29:59]
Police Officer (Justin Timberlake DUI)
All right, that's all good. All right.
- [30:03]
Ashley Merchant
By the way, these are like.
- [30:06]
Justin Timberlake
These are like really hard tests.
- [30:09]
Police Officer (Justin Timberlake DUI)
So the way this device works, you just put your lips over it and you blow up. Blow into it like you're blowing a balloon.
- [30:14]
Narrator/Host (possibly Ashley or Phil)
No.
- [30:15]
Ashley Merchant
Yeah.
- [30:15]
Narrator/Host (possibly Ashley or Phil)
Okay.
- [30:16]
Ashley Merchant
All right.
- [30:19]
Police Officer (Justin Timberlake DUI)
All right. At this point, based upon the observations, you want to do the rest for suspicion of driving while intoxicated. That's what I do with this. Turn around,
- [30:29]
Ashley Merchant
you man. Like, I'm just following my friends home. I'm. I'm.
- [30:38]
Narrator/Host (possibly Ashley or Phil)
All right.
- [30:38]
Police Officer (Justin Timberlake DUI)
Just turn around for me, please.
- [30:46]
Ashley Merchant
Don't even get me started on dui. I mean, we could. We could have a whole show about my thoughts on the crime of DUI and how officers handle it from. And. And they're polar opposites, I can tell you.
- [30:56]
Phil Holloway
Well, so look what they're going to say. These were the so called standardized field sobriety tests, or at least, you know, that was what we call the one leg stand. And the officers are going to say that, you know, he. He was unsteady on his feet, that he had to use his arms for balance, and. And that he put his foot down early and. And all these things. And they're going to say those are clues of impairment. They also said that he had a strong odor of alcohol. And this is all like cookie cutter language. We see this in every incident report for dui. Dwi. They always say, glassy, bloodshot, watery eyes. Right?
- [31:30]
Ashley Merchant
Because you can't test it. You can't test it. You just have to believe what they say completely.
- [31:34]
Phil Holloway
So anyway, interestingly enough, you know, they. They had this video. Actually, there was some litigation over it, which I need you to explain to me because I don't understand why this wasn't just released to the public. Because it was, you know, it's clearly, you know, a case that was filed in, in court. It's public record, this is evidence in the case. And, you know, these things are routinely, you know, handed out to the media just in unredacted form. But what was different about this one,
- [32:05]
Ashley Merchant
he had a lawyer that sued. And so it took some time, you know, and he was alleging that it violated his privacy rights and his family's rights. And, you know, they do ask you some medically qualifying information. So there probably were sections on there where they asked his medical history because they have to ask you that. And, you know, he argued, and I think ultimately successfully, to keep that out of the public's view, because this was finally given over, but it was given over by an agreement and so certain parts were extorted out. So he may have had a very valid argument that these medical records, you know, part of this should not have been been released to the public. And that's why we're seeing this redacted version.
- [32:38]
Phil Holloway
Well, he didn't want this coming out either, apparently. SOT 7, which is Justin Timberlake at the police station, and he says that the police are treating him like a criminal, which is pretty ironic thing to say when you're under arrest, accused of a crime.
- [32:55]
Ashley Merchant
You boys treat me like I'm a criminal. I don't want to say that, cuz. I mean, would you be interested? So for misdemeanor UWI. I don't like the C names, Mr.
- [33:09]
Phil Holloway
Timberlake, but which is the situation that we're in, unfortunately.
- [33:12]
Ashley Merchant
Okay, I'm trying my best to treat you like anybody else.
- [33:16]
Police Officer (Justin Timberlake DUI)
Okay, just look it over real quick before you, before you sign.
- [33:24]
Officer Noonan
White.
- [33:26]
Ashley Merchant
I'm just kidding.
- [33:29]
Phil Holloway
Just kidding, man.
- [33:32]
Ashley Merchant
Actually had a sense of humor in
- [33:34]
Phil Holloway
the, in the irony of ironies, though, you know, he said, you're treating me like a criminal. You know what? He was actually, he got a great plea deal, actually. He, he was originally charged with a misdemeanor crime of, you know, driving while intoxicated. And he pled to want something called a non criminal traffic violation. He had his driver's license suspended for 90 days, paid a few hundred dollars and did some community service, but he actually wound up with a non criminal disposition. I think that's a great work by his defense lawyer. And the question that our listeners and viewers want us to talk about is whether or not that was too much, too little, or just the right amount of punishment. What do you think?
- [34:15]
Ashley Merchant
I think it was perfectly appropriate. And the reason why is the prosecution, the state always has to consider how good of a case they have. And in this case, he looked fine on those tests, you know, those tests. He was not. And I mean, trust me, I've seen ones where they're actually throwing up, doing the tests. You know, he wasn't falling down. He looked pretty good. And so, you know, there's no test. He refused the test. So that's their evidence. That little snippet that we saw is going to be their entire case to show that he was drunk. It's not a strong case case. So the fact that they let him plea with a fine seems completely appropriate.
- [34:46]
Phil Holloway
Interestingly enough, if he had, he refused the breath tests and presumably the blood test, so we don't have any chemical evidence. If he had refused to do those voluntary field sobriety tests, they would have nothing of a case. But we'll have to leave it there for Justin Timberlake. Coming up next, we are pleased to be joined here at MK True Crime by Julie Grant. She's going to talk with us about the Caleb Flynn case and more. Stay tuned,
- [35:14]
Ashley Merchant
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- [36:07]
Narrator/Host (possibly Ashley or Phil)
Megan.
- [36:07]
Ashley Merchant
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- [36:17]
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- [36:47]
Health Insurance Advertiser
Hey, podcast listeners. Mr. Ballin here to let you know we are now publishing four times a week on my podcast, Mr. Ballin podcast Strange, Dark and Mysterious Stories. That's right. You'll be getting four new episodes a week covering unbelievable mysteries, chilling through crime and stories so strange they sound made up, but they aren't. They're all true. Don't miss an episode. Listen to and follow Mr. Ballin podcast Strange, Dark and Mysterious Stories wherever you get your podcasts or on YouTube.
- [37:18]
Ashley Merchant
Welcome back to MK True Crime. Joining us now is award winning TV host, journalist and fellow attorney Julie Grant. Welcome, Julie. This Caleb Flynn case, it's something else. I can't wait to talk to you about it. So Caleb Flynn is a former music pastor and former American idol contestant from 2013. He's accused of killing his wife, Ashley Flynn in their home and staging the murder as a break in. So have you been following this case, Julie?
- [37:42]
Julie Grant
Yes. Ashley, wonderful to see you. And Phil, thank you so much for having me. This case is so awful. It makes you mad. It breaks your heart. So many twists and turns with this one lot to talk about, as you said.
- [37:58]
Ashley Merchant
Yeah, it's really crazy. I mean, he's giving all this praise to his wife, but yet it sounds like he staged this burglary, you know, with his own weapon. I mean, it just doesn't make sense. So what are your thoughts on this initially?
- [38:09]
Julie Grant
Oh, Ashley, I have to tell you and Phil that I know this guy was trying to be a singer, but I think based on the body camera footage I saw, he's trying to be an actor. And he's not good at either. He's not good at singing or acting. Actually, I've never heard him sing. I don't know, he might be a good singer, but he's a. A bad actor, my friends. A bad actor. You know, I listened to that 911 call in preparation for your show. I probably listened to it at least 10 times. And I think what he's doing is he's manufacturing his alibi. The first thing out of his mouth is he says, somebody broke into my home and shot my wife. He's not saying, help, help. My wife is dead.
- [38:52]
Ashley Merchant
And it was something my wife.
- [38:54]
Phil Holloway
Yes,
- [38:57]
Julie Grant
right.
- [38:58]
Phil Holloway
Yeah.
- [38:59]
Julie Grant
Two shots to the head. Okay. So if you're, if your beloved spouse, the mother of your two daughters, is shot in their bed in the middle of the night. And it's really unclear where he is. It's unclear from the call whether he's in the bed with her or if he just happens to. To come home late at night and find her. But he notes two gunshot wounds to the head. How do you see two gunshot wounds? Are you a medical examiner, Caleb Flynn? That's what I want to know. It stinks to high heaven, my friends.
- [39:27]
Ashley Merchant
Well, we actually have the 911. We can play. We've got SOT 9. So let's listen to the 911 together.
- [39:34]
Narrator/Host (possibly Ashley or Phil)
Oh, my God. Miami County 911. Oh, my. Somebody. Somebody broke into my home. Somebody broke in my home. Are they still in there? I don't know. I don't know. Hey, what's the address? 932 Court City, Ohio. Please, please hurry. Please, please. Wait. What are you seeing? My wife is. She's got two shots to her head. Oh, my God. Oh, my God. Oh, my God. Ma', am, I need you to take a deep breath, okay? Do you still see anybody in the house? No. The door to the garage was wide open. Please hurry. Please. Oh, my God. Oh, my God.
- [40:17]
Ashley Merchant
You know, I'm pretty pro defense usually, and I heard that and I was
- [40:19]
Phil Holloway
like, yeah, so look, he wasn't there, right? He. According to this 911 call, he wasn't there. He comes home and how does he. His first words out of his mouth, I believe should have been, send an ambulance. My wife is. It looks like she's been shot or something along those lines. But how do you know there's two shots to her head unless you saw them being delivered? This whole thing to me just defies logic and credibility. And I'm like, ashley, I like to try to give people the benefit of the doubt. Of course, that's what our justice system does. But here at MK True Crime, we have the luxury of sort of telling folks how we see the evidence and how it comes across to us. And like you said, Julie, it just doesn't come across as credible. And it seems manufactured. But, hey, I can't wait to hear what the audience tells us in the comments. But that's just my take.
- [41:16]
Ashley Merchant
Yeah. So, Julie, did you listen also to the body cam? We actually have some of the sobbing. Let's let our. Let's let our listeners listen to it. It's at 10, and then we can talk about the body cam. I'm sure you've got a lot to say about that. That.
- [41:27]
Phil Holloway
Oh, my God. Oh, my God. Oh, My God. Can you.
- [41:33]
Julie Grant
You want to sit down? No.
- [41:34]
Ashley Merchant
Okay.
- [41:36]
Julie Grant
Is she gone?
- [41:37]
Defense Lawyer
Look at me.
- [41:38]
Ashley Merchant
Look at me. Take a breath. Look at me. I need you to breathe, okay?
- [41:46]
Justin Timberlake
What do I do with my daughters?
- [41:47]
Ashley Merchant
What do I do with my daughters? Right now? Right now I need you to breathe, okay?
- [42:02]
Phil Holloway
Ashley's dead.
- [42:03]
Ashley Merchant
She's dead.
- [42:05]
Julie Grant
Someone.
- [42:06]
Phil Holloway
Someone broken. She's dead.
- [42:20]
Ashley Merchant
I don't know. What do you think about that, Julie?
- [42:23]
Julie Grant
Ashley and Phil. I want to know what those tears are all about. Because it's clear he's hysterical. He's crying about something. Is he crying because he's truly a victim and someone truly invaded his home and murdered his beautiful wife Ashley, and now he is without her for the rest of his life and everything has changed? Or is it that everything just got real for him? Is it because he's behind this, as police in Ohio say he is, and that suddenly he's realizing the true ramifications of what they say were his actions in killing her? So for me, it's clear he's hysterical and he's looking distraught, looking to be helpless. And at first glance, you feel sorry for him. But then when you. You listen to all the facts and you unpack it and couple it with the evidence you just played on your program, that 911 call where he gives that non responsive answer when he's saying, someone broke into my house. And the dispatcher says, well, do you still see anybody in the house? And he says, no. The door to the garage is wide open, though. I found it like that. Wait a second. Why are you talking about that? If there was an intruder that just came in, wouldn't you be grabbing your baby?
- [43:39]
Ashley Merchant
That's what got me.
- [43:40]
Julie Grant
Yeah, right, Ashley, you'd be grabbing the baby. Let's grab my girls and get out of the house.
- [43:45]
Phil Holloway
The police immediately seem to have. Well, their suspicions were raised. And I understand that. Look, we always, when we investigate murder cases, and I'm thinking now with my ex cop hat on, we. We sort of look at the victim and then we work outward from that person to look at the people that are immediately the closest to them in their lives. And that usually involves their.
- [44:07]
Ashley Merchant
Their.
- [44:08]
Phil Holloway
Their immediate family. So you kind of start there and you start ruling people out until you can't rule them out. And so that's sort of the natural thing. But we have some, some body cam of that. Let's go. Let's go ahead and roll. Side 11. This is where the police say that somebody needs to be watching him as the crime scene is investigated.
- [44:30]
Ashley Merchant
Oh, no, it's painful. Do you see any blood along to take it off? Hey, is someone watching him? Somebody needs to be watching.
- [44:52]
Phil Holloway
So we don't have any kind of information about what type of firearm might have been used, what the murder weapon may have been. Julie. But we do know that there was, according to police, at least, there had been a firearm in the console of the truck. Okay. That you see in some of that body camera, and that the police found it and that console was open. What do you make of that piece of evidence?
- [45:18]
Julie Grant
I make of it, it might be part of the manufacturing of the alibi, Phil. That's what I'm thinking. Because it's the defendant, Mr. Flynn, who lets police know about his weapons and that there happens to be one in the truck. So he's leading them there by the go look in my truck. And then we know we have spent shell casings that were not picked up, that were recovered at the scene. So if what he's saying is true, then that would mean some intruder coming in for God knows what reason just happened to get lucky, didn't bring their own gun, but thought they'd get lucky and look in his truck and, oh, gee, what do you know? There's a firearm I can use to do this murder. No. No way does this happen. And this guy seems like an idiot to me the more I watch it. You know, at first, I felt very sorry when I heard this news. This sounded awful. And you hear this guy's a man of faith. And this music pastor and doing good in the community broke my heart. But then I started listening closely to his statements. He's the worst witness against himself right now. Phil and Ashley.
- [46:22]
Ashley Merchant
Well, it'll be interesting to see if he is stupid. He probably laid a great motive trap. You know, he probably laid information out that the police are gonna. I mean, there's rumors already that he had a mistress, you know, that's been circulated online. It's not substantiated, so we don't know, but there's those rumors. And obviously, you think about money, you think about mistress, you think about the reasons that someone would want to actually kill their wife. So it'd be interesting to see if the police are able to tie any of those motives to what happened in this case.
- [46:48]
Phil Holloway
Well, what else is interesting to me? And this. This is a few years old now, but we actually have some video from his American Idol interview back in 2013, and he actually describes how he felt about his relationship with his wife, at least at that time. Site 8.
- [47:06]
Justin Timberlake
My name is Caleb Flynn. I'm from Tipp City, Ohio. I audition because I'm sure everybody says it, but music is all I know. It's what I live to do and I love to sing, so that's why I auditioned. Maybe my wife kind of nudged me a little bit too. I'm a music pastor and so that's my job every week, is to go up there and to sing and to connect what I do on stage to the congregation. So first and foremost, obviously, is the Lord thing that makes me unique. You know, I absolutely love the Lord. I love my wife more than anything. She is very, very pretty.
- [47:41]
Phil Holloway
Just, oof.
- [47:42]
Justin Timberlake
I love her. My favorite past Idol contestant would probably be Carrie Underwood. She, she's just absolutely incredible. Love her attitude and just her passion for, for what she does. And I, I promise you, if my wife dyed her hair blonde, she would look just like her.
- [48:02]
Phil Holloway
So quite the contrast there. Right. So it's going to be interesting to see where this goes and what information prosecutors are going to develop regarding the current, current, let's just call it the status of the relationship between this husband and now deceased wife in more recent, more recent days. One of the interesting charges though, always look at the indictment to sort of see what the charges can tell us about prosecutors theories on this case. So they have multiple different, I guess, charging styles here. We got different counts of murder. We've got tampering with evidence. You've got misdemeanor counts of, of intimidating essentially a witness in a case. But the four murder counts apparently have. They're based on different legal theories. We got aggravated murder, probably due to the firearm, and we have, you know, three additional accounts including felony murder and then one that's based on premeditation and deliberation. Julie, can you talk to us about why prosecutors might charge different counts of murder based on different theories of criminal responsibility
- [49:14]
Narrator/Host (possibly Ashley or Phil)
or.
- [49:14]
Julie Grant
Phil, they're going to charge everything that is applicable. So if you have a murder, that's one charge. If you have a murder with a firearm, I believe Ohio is one of those states that has a gun specification enhancement. If I remember correctly from my time being a reporter in Ohio, could be more years if someone is convicted, if you have that. So they're going to add everything applicable and you can bet your bottom dollar they're going to be considering pursuing the death penalty. Ohio is a death penalty state, although someone hasn't been executed for quite some time. It is a state that has the death penalty and depending upon the circumstances, if it can be established that she was defenseless and sound Asleep in her own bed, the place where she should feel safest in the world. And if he was behind this, as police say he was, this may very well become a capital case as well. And it may not just be murder. It may be capital murder when it's all said and done. Phil and Ashley.
- [50:10]
Phil Holloway
Yeah, it very well could be. You know, I think that these. These different murder charges based on different theories. When I was a prosecutor and I would draft up indictments, the. The rule was sort of the. The rule of thumb was if you have evidence to support the theory, give the jury different avenues to get to the same place, because you can't be convicted of more than one murder. They would merge together. But if you have evidence that supports these various theories, you know, run them all up the flagpole because hopefully the jury's going to salute something. Now, the other side of that coin is defense lawyers will say, look, the prosecutor doesn't even know what happened. That's why they've charged these radically different theories of guilt. Ashley, I know that you've probably made that argument in cases, and sometimes it makes a lot of sense and it's valid.
- [50:59]
Julie Grant
I have.
- [51:00]
Ashley Merchant
I've definitely made that argument. Another thing that's going on in this case is that we've recently seen what I would call a gag order. Essentially, he's arguing, Caleb is arguing, his lawyers are arguing that the public should not have access to all of the investigatory files. They're essentially asking for a gag order to block the public from court documents, from different videos, audios, things like that, because they're saying that his constitutional right to a fair trial is going to be violated if we're all allowed to scrutinize the evidence and look at all of that evidence. And the court has not ruled on that yet. The defense filed it. And so now the state's going to respond, and they're going to litigate it. The state may well agree to it, but I think it's very unlikely that the judge is going to issue a gag order. You know, in my experience, judges do not like to keep the public out of courtrooms. And I know, Julie, you. You enjoy that. I enjoy that. Phil enjoys it. We all like to have the public in courtrooms, and that's, you know, that's one of the founding principles of our country.
- [51:52]
Julie Grant
Ashley, you're so right. You're so right. The public interest, the public right to know. You're right. It's going to be a steep hill for this defense team to climb. And as you noted so well They've got to make that argument. They've got to try for him. So certainly respect that and respect the process.
- [52:10]
Ashley Merchant
Well, I want to talk about Jimmy Gracie. We got the bad news last week that Jimmy was. His body was found. But lately the police have been investigating it, and now they're saying that they're not going to pursue any charges right now as they await toxicology. They've done an autopsy and they do not believe that there's any foul play. So what surprises you about that? I mean, at first we were getting some, you know, news reports that maybe his wallet was missing, his cell phone was missing. Now it sounds like his wallet was completely intact. So the police don't think that he part of any robbery. They think this was just an accident.
- [52:42]
Julie Grant
Right, Ashley? Exactly. You know what it makes me think of, and I'm curious if you and Phil thought this too, as you've been reading all the developments. It makes me think of the case involving college student Riley Strain that we saw not too long ago, right, in Nashville. I mean, eerily similar circumstances. You know, I mean, these. These young men are thriving in the prime of their lives in college, belonging to fraternities, having a great time. And we know there's the element of fun and alcohol consumption involved in both of these cases. And for a little refresher with Riley Strain, it was that he was just incredibly intoxicated and unfortunately stumbled into the river. For a while it seemed like, oh, my gosh, was this a kidnapping or did someone try to do him harm? And then in the end of it all, it was just. No, it was just extreme intoxication. And this one with Jimmy Gracie is giving me those same thoughts. I'm wondering if, because we're hearing the backing off of any interest in pursuing criminal charges, that perhaps there just isn't a criminal suspect. And maybe this was just, sadly, him unfortunately falling into the water like Riley Strain did.
- [53:53]
Phil Holloway
Well, that's sort of what it seems like to me. It's sort of leaning that way. The only. Look, this all came up when I was actually on spring break last week. And lots of other parents that I talked to when this news was breaking, they're like, this is obviously the parents worst nightmares, what all parents fear as their children get older and start engaging in different, more risky behavior. And the question is, all right, was this something that was a result of, as you mentioned, Julie, just maybe he drank too much and he maybe had some kind of alcohol poisoning or just extreme intoxication, or did. Did he have some help? Was he Perhaps poisoned in some way? Was there someone that put something in the drink? Was there a combination of things? Was he drugged? And then we learned that his cell phone, Julie, was recovered from a third party, was in someone else's possession as that third party was arrested. And we don't know the details about that. So it seems like we might need to sort of have pressed the pause button before we close the book on this. What do you think?
- [55:00]
Julie Grant
That's a good way to say it, Phil. You're right. Yeah. Because look. And that's one of the. The big keys to this case. Right. Investigators, no doubt, are doing a download of that phone and seeing if. If there was anything on it that could perhaps shed some light on what happened to Jimmy Gracie. I'm sure they're pulling surveillance cameras from all over the place and questioning this individual who had that phone. So you would hope that no one was trying to do him harm. You would hope that nobody was preying upon him. We know that it was in the wee, wee hours of the morning, and the friend of his who he was with at the club had gone home sooner, and Jimmy wanted to stay a little bit longer. We understand it. And so whatever transpired in that period of time, I think we just have to hope and pray that law enforcement is being threatened and doing their jobs properly and making sure that there's no stone left unturned.
- [55:55]
Ashley Merchant
Well, whatever happened is a tragedy. Hopefully, there's no foul play. But no matter what our thoughts and prayers are with the family, it's a tragedy. Thank you so much, Julie, for being here. Where can our audience find you?
- [56:06]
Julie Grant
Oh, Ashley, wonderful to be with you. And, Phil, I appreciate you having me today. I am on all the social platforms. Julie Grant ESQ And Julie Grant tv. Awesome.
- [56:16]
Ashley Merchant
Great. Well, everyone follow Julie. Thank you so much. And next up, we've got our closing arguments and your questions. Stay tuned.
- [56:25]
Advertiser
When a trip to the hospital or pharmacy leads to a bill no one saw coming, we're here to help. Your health insurance provider is working every day with hospitals and drug companies so families can get the care they need at prices they can afford. That's why we're investing in new technologies that make care easier to access, more predictable and more affordable, and helping bring down high hospital and prescription drug prices. There's more to do, and we'll continue fighting for you.
- [56:55]
Health Insurance Advertiser
Hey, podcast listeners. Mr. Ballin, here to let you know we are now publishing four times a week on my podcast, Mr. Ballin podcast, Strange, Dark and Mysterious Stories. That's right. You'll be getting four new episodes a week covering unbelievable mysteries, chilling through crime and stories so strange they sound made up, but they aren't. They're all true. Don't miss an episode. Listen to and follow Mr. Ballin podcast Strange, dark and mysterious stories wherever you get your podcasts or on YouTube.
- [57:25]
Phil Holloway
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- [60:05]
Ashley Merchant
Yes, definitely. And Laura, I love that you're listening to us while you're working out. Good for you. I think that's amazing. I hope we entertain you. Yeah. And I did hit pretty hard that they left a lot of things on the table. Table. It's always hard for us as lawyers when clients compare cases. That is one of those cringe times, you know, when a client says, well, so and so got such and such a deal or something like that. Same thing with lawyers. I'm sure he was watching it. I have no doubt. And I'm sure it's factoring into his decision. And he's probably having some really hard discussions with his team about that, you know, and it's, it's human nature. I mean, you want to know that your lawyers are doing a good job, that they're not leaving things on the table, things like that. But I would just caution. Every case is different and there's a lot of times that things are going on behind the scenes and a lot of strategy decisions we actually make with our clients and they have fully, you know, understand. And so we don't know. Maybe Corey was involved in that, you know, maybe she was involved in those decisions behind the scene. So I think we won't see a change in lawyers, but perhaps we will. But thank you so much for watching our show.
- [61:07]
Phil Holloway
All right, great answer. Look, I question whether or not he has access to that much television, but I know, or at least to the Internet to be able to watch that trial.
- [61:17]
Ashley Merchant
Somebody does. And they're telling him somebody does.
- [61:19]
Phil Holloway
Yeah. I mean, one way or another, I'm sure he's monitoring the developments in that case. All right, Ashley, this is the time of the show where you and I get to talk about, you know, whatever we want, really, for a minute or so, maybe two or three. Sometimes we go a little long. We'll start with you. Go ahead and tell us what's on your mind today.
- [61:39]
Ashley Merchant
I will. Thank you so much, Phil. And luckily, Phil is going to have a little bit more of a light hearted closing argument than I am today. Mine is really based on what transpired several hours ago in my life. I received a call at 12:06 today that I think no mother would ever want to receive. My oldest daughter who's a senior in high school, she was out of breath. I could tell she was out of breath. She'd obviously been running. She's a senior in high school. It was midday. That wasn't Normal. It struck me because the students aren't allowed to use their phones in school. And it was the middle of the day. It's particularly ironic because our state governor has a bill on his table right now to be signed that actually bans the use of cell phones in schools. And I think at the end of this day, I have a little bit different view on that. But what did she do? What did she say? She said, I'm okay. Which, thank God. That was the first thing she said. But then she said, there's a shooter in our school. She said, I ran as fast as I can, mom, as fast as I could from the lunchroom, and I'm locked in my car, but I don't know where my sister is. And her younger sister is a sophomore at that same school. And, you know, they fight like all sisters do, but you could just tell that she was worried at that time. She said, I checked, though, and she should be in Coach Hilliard's class, but she's not answering her phone. But Coach Hilliard doesn't let them have their phones. And we know and we love Coach Hilliard. And there's a reason I'm calling him out by name, because he's a wonderful person. And as soon as she said that, immediately, instinctively, I thought, thank God you're safe, and thank God that your sister is with Coach Hilliard, because he's one of those teachers. And I think a lot of teachers don't get recognized enough. But one of those teachers that would take a bullet for my child. I really firmly believe that. And we've seen that. We saw that recently in the Appalachia High School shooting, where there were teachers that took bullets for their kids. And there's a few other teachers in that building that I would have felt just as comfortable with. But, you know, I wasn't able to get in touch with her right then. Thank God. I have since now, and it's been a virtue started. But, you know, going through that, I just kept thinking, thank God that the school is taking this seriously. Thank God that they're protecting the students. And I hope that this teacher is not ever asked to protect my child or take a bullet, but I know that he would. I told my daughter to lock her doors and to leave as fast as she could, but let any other students get in. Of course, she couldn't leave because they were locked down. But I was thankful that the school responded extremely appropriately. They've been doing drills for years. My poor kids have had these practice drills for years. They were able to Apprehend the person who was there with a gun in the cafeteria, right where my oldest daughter was, they were able to apprehend her within 12 minutes. They were able to get the gun, disarm it, take away her weapon, and they had the perimeter set up. They got notices out and everybody was safe. So I think everybody who has a kid at that school is going to hug their kids a little bit tighter. But the reason that I wanted to bring this up, the reason I wanted to talk about it, is this didn't have to happen. And, and if we could just lock our guns. A 15 year old should not have access to a firearm. We live in a country that luckily we have wonderful rights to carry firearms and we are very free in this country. And that is a wonderful thing and should still be enforced and should be available to everyone. But if you've got teenagers in your home, you've got to be a responsible parent. You've got to have parental supervision. I don't want to have to represent you. I don't want to be the person that you call. Don't call me. Do not spend your money calling me. Spend your money on a gun safe. Recently, that father in Appalachia, at the local high school, he was convicted. He was found guilty of letting his son, who had mental illness at the time and was in danger, have access to a firearm. So please, please protect our kids. Don't call me, don't hire me. I can't help you. But you can help yourself. Thank you. Thank you.
- [65:23]
Phil Holloway
All right, Ashley, thank you so much for that. That's a awful story. But I'm very pleased at the, at the ending of it and thank God everybody's safe. And, you know, if you see something, say something. I think the students at that school who recognized what was happening and they alerted people in the appropriate way was absolutely, you know, it was wonderful that it played out that way. It could have been so much worse. Thank you.
- [65:49]
Ashley Merchant
You're right, Phil. And you know, we see so much on news where it ends badly, make missteps. So I wanted to make sure that I brought out that it was done right, that the training is helping, you know, and so we are. We have gone really far in making these steps and everyone's safe. And I mean, handling it in 12 minutes, that's. That's amazing. That's commendable. And nobody was hurt. So thank you.
- [66:10]
Phil Holloway
All right. A little earlier in the show, I mentioned that I was out of town on spring break last week and that I actually came home with a new family member and I think we have some video of my new family member. And this, ladies and gentlemen is Duke. Duke is a wire haired pointing griffin and we are pleased to bring Duke to his new home. This particular, I'm trying to put him in my lap as we speak. We were pleased to bring Duke and to my home and to show him to you guys as well. So if I can get him to say hello, can Duke, can you say hello to everybody who sees you on YouTube and for those of you listening on on listening on the radio on Sirius XM or on podcast, you're gonna have to check out the YouTube video because Duke wants to you to see him and to say hi. He's a 10 week old wire haired pointing griffin and he's already making a very big splash in our household and he's also part of the reason why I didn't have more of a closing argument prepared today because he is, as you can see, very much a handful. All right, all right, we're going to leave it there. Thank you all very much for being with us today. If you haven't seen us on YouTube, go ahead and like and subscribe. And of course you can find us on Sirius XM channel 111, the Megyn Kelly channel, of course, everywhere you get your podcast. Very special thanks to our guest Julie Grant and to my co host Ashley Merchant. Thanks again everyone for joining us and have a great week.
- [67:43]
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- [68:13]
Julie Grant
Hey everyone, it's me, Morgan Stewart and I have a new podcast called the Morgan Stewart Show. Join me each week as I talk about pop culture, fashion, my personal life and just a warning, I'm going to be giving my opinion on everything. I'll also have some really fun guests to join in on the fun. The Morgan Stewart show is out now. Listen and follow wherever you get your podcasts or watch full video on YouTube.