Karmelo Anthony in Protective Custody, Tyler Robinson Prosecutor Found in Contempt, and Blaise Taylor’s Poisoning Trial, with Claudia King

Summary

MK True Crime – June 30, 2026

EPISODE SUMMARY

Main Theme:
This episode, hosted by criminal defense attorney Ashley Merchant and former state attorney Dave Aronberg, covers three major true crime stories: updates on Carmelo Anthony's prison situation and legal strategy, procedural dramas in the Tyler Robinson murder case, and analysis of the Blaze Taylor poisoning trial. Special guest Claudia King, law & crime analyst and podcast host, joins to discuss the Taylor trial and advocacy for DNA testing in cold cases.

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SEGMENT BREAKDOWN & KEY INSIGHTS

1. Carmelo Anthony Case Updates

(Start @ 01:50)

Main Points:

• Anthony, a teenager convicted of murder, is now in protective custody due to his high-profile status. The attention — both positive and negative — puts him at risk from other inmates.
• Discussion about the controversial Facebook post by one of Anthony’s new pro bono lawyers, criticizing Anthony’s parents' behavior during the trial and emphasizing that the case was always about mitigation, not exoneration.

Notable Quotes:

• Ashley Merchant:
  “I'm kind of surprised that this lawyer ended up on the defense team after posting something like this, but it is kind of nice to see that someone's got this clarity, and hopefully they'll be able to shift the tide.” (03:41)
• Dave Aronberg:
  “‘Most real lawyers realize this was a punishment case.’ Did he mean by that that it's not about whether he's guilty... but you want to reduce the penalty as much as possible, ...to keep him out of prison as opposed to fighting to say he was innocent?” (04:04)
• Ashley Merchant:
  “This is not a strict self defense case...You're not going to walk free and get him to really get Carmelo to really start accepting the reality that he's going to go to prison.” (04:33)

Protective Custody and Prison Dynamics:

• Lee Merritt, a high-profile civil rights attorney, is now on Anthony’s team and is reportedly focused on safety concerns due to the influx of support and media attention.
• Ashley Merchant:
  “If you're getting a lot of attention in prison, that's not a good thing... You want to kind of keep your head down and...not get any attention.” (08:20)
• The hosts speculate a motion for a new trial will be filed, probably on grounds of ineffective assistance of counsel.

Notable Moments:

• Jake Lang, a far-right influencer connected to the case, was arrested for making threats during the trial and controversially ordered to leave Texas upon release on bond.
• Jake Lang (clip):
  “I’m not allowed — the first man in American history to be kicked out and banned from the state of Texas for my political ideologies.” (12:31)

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2. Tyler Robinson Murder Case – Pretrial Battles

(18:15)

Main Points:

• Tyler Robinson faces the death penalty for allegedly killing Charlie Kirk. His preliminary hearing is scheduled for July 6.
• Pretrial litigation centers on gag orders, camera bans, and witness participation. Notably, the defense tried and failed to force key witness Lance Twiggs (Robinson's roommate and romantic partner) to testify early.

Legal Deep Dive:

• Ashley Merchant:
  “I think it's risky...because you have a right to confront witnesses, but you don't have a right to confront them multiple times...typically the defense doesn't want to call witnesses like this at the preliminary hearing because we could get stuck with that testimony.” (21:16, 22:53)
• Dave Aronberg:
  “Isn't the reason why they have these probable cause hearings...to help the defense?...It's to the advantage of the defense to try to get as much as possible in advance and to cross examine people.” (20:31)

Judge's Ruling (audio played):

• The judge denied the defense motion, clarifying that full confrontation rights attach only at trial, not at the preliminary hearing. (23:27-24:22)

Prosecutor Held in Contempt:

• Chris Ballard, the prosecutor, violated a gag order by making public comments about ballistics evidence and the “strength of the case.”
• Judge:
  “While Mr. Ballard offered a cursory nod to the presumption of innocence, he immediately undercut it by publicly broadcasting his belief that the state will overcome his presumption of innocence...” (26:04)
• Discussion about the uneven application of gag orders and the tension between public information and a fair trial.

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3. Blaise Taylor Trial – Alleged Poisoning of Pregnant Girlfriend

With Claudia King (29:25)

Case Overview:

• Blaze Taylor, once a college football star and NFL scout, is accused of poisoning his pregnant girlfriend, Jade Benning, with liquid cocaine because he “did not want the child.”
• The defense claims Benning ingested drugs herself—something both panelists doubt based on their experience.

Key Testimony and Evidence:

• Liquid cocaine is “not typically on the menu” for recreational users. Both Ashley and Claudia are deeply skeptical of the defense narrative. (31:27, 32:02)
• Dave Aronberg:
  “And apparently the concentration of cocaine in Benning’s blood was higher than anything the entire medical examiner’s office had seen.” (33:45)

Audio Clip:

• Victim’s last words recorded and relayed by her best friend:
  “What did you put in my drink? I knew my drink tasted funny. You did this because you didn’t want the baby...” (32:48)

Scene and Behavior:

• Blaze Taylor allegedly interfered with EMTs; his erratic, frantic conduct at the scene may have prevented immediate assistance, consistent with a strategy to ensure fetal demise.

Crime Scene and Defense:

• Minor issues with evidence collection (lack of crime scene preservation), but panel consensus is that the verdict will likely hinge more on toxicology and testimony than physical evidence.
• Defense’s approach: Cast doubt by suggesting Benning’s possible voluntary drug use and pointing out the ME couldn’t definitively rule the death a homicide.
• Ashley Merchant:
  “I think they're just arguing reasonable doubt there, really. But, you know, tell me, I'm curious your thoughts on that argument.” (36:31)
• Claudia King:
  “[The ME] only have those specific boxes and if they can't definitively put it in a box, they can't check the box. So...it’s a little different than putting together all the evidence...” (36:37)

Damning Witness Testimony:

• Ex-girlfriend testifies Blaze previously sought abortion pills to induce a miscarriage in another woman:
  “...asked me if I could get the abortion pills and he could make her take them or put it in her drink.” (44:22)

---

4. Interview: Claudia King on Victim Advocacy

(46:08)

Murder Has a Name Foundation:

• Claudia shares her conversation with Kaylee Goncalves’ mother, Christy, from the Idaho Student Murders. Christy founded “Murder Has a Name” to fund DNA testing for cold cases.
• Claudia King:
  “DNA is what solved their case, they want to help fund other cases...police departments can send in an application if they don’t have funding to do DNA testing...it can be tens of thousands of dollars...” (46:19, 48:08)

Emotional Insight:

• Christy and Steve seek to channel their grief into advocacy to ensure other families don't wait in limbo for answers, stressing both the cost and transformative impact of modern forensic science.

---

5. Closing Arguments

(52:17–58:30)

Dave Aronberg:

• Previewed an upcoming case of extreme neglect: the death of seven-year-old Casper O’Brien, who died weighing 255 lbs, immobilized in a hoarding situation—an example, he argues, of criminal neglect as deadly as more overt forms of violence.
  “You can kill a child just as maliciously with a deliberate, calculated indifference.” (54:46)

Ashley Merchant:

• Uses the Robinson case’s gag order controversy to springboard a commentary on fairness and media in the criminal justice system:
  • Law enforcement and prosecution often dominate the narrative at the outset.
  • Defense typically isn't allowed the same podium until much later.
  “Shouldn't the person accused have some meaningful opportunity to respond? Shouldn't we get to answer? The First Amendment does not end at the courthouse steps and neither does the presumption of innocence...” (55:33)

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NOTABLE QUOTES

• “With friends like these, who needs enemies, right?” – Dave Aronberg (02:21, on the Anthony lawyer Facebook post)
• “This is not a strict self defense case... It's mitigation all day long.” – Ashley Merchant (06:04)
• “The first man in American history to be kicked out and banned from the state of Texas for my political ideologies.” – Jake Lang (12:31)
• “Public discussion is not the enemy of justice. Sometimes it's actually the only thing reminding us that the system, that the public is actually watching.” – Ashley Merchant (57:27)
• “DNA is what solved their case... They want to be able to help support that for others, because we know that over 1,300 cases have been solved using DNA testing...” – Claudia King (46:19)

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TIMESTAMPS FOR KEY SEGMENTS

• Carmelo Anthony case intro/controversy: 01:50–08:20
• Protective custody/details on Anthony’s lawyer: 06:52–08:20
• Jake Lang/Escalating trial threats and expulsion: 10:38–13:32
• Tyler Robinson gag order & hearing drama: 18:15–25:55
• Judge’s ruling on hearsay (audio): 23:27–24:22
• Prosecutor held in contempt (audio): 26:04–27:08
• Blaise Taylor poisoning trial deep-dive: 29:56–45:17
  • Victim’s last words audio: 32:48
  • Ex-girlfriend abortion pill testimony: 43:25–44:22
• Claudia King on advocacy/Idaho case: 46:08–49:23
• Closing arguments on neglect & media/justice: 52:17–58:30

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FINAL TAKEAWAYS

• Prison safety and defense tactics: Even the best counsel can be hobbled by client or family actions—admission, remorse, and early reality acceptance matter.
• Pretrial transparency vs. fairness: Defense faces uphill battles when prosecution shapes public perception before discovery is even shared.
• Science and advocacy: Investments in DNA technology change lives and justice for victims; families can be powerful reformers.
• Narrative control & due process: The rights of the accused in the media space are complex, and gag orders, while important, can sometimes be inconsistent or unfairly applied.

The episode is a comprehensive look at three gripping criminal cases, exploring not just legal facts but media, ethics, and the ongoing impact on victims and their families. Engaging and insightful for both legal aficionados and the true crime public.

Transcript

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[Ashley Merchant]

Welcome to the MK True Crime Show. I'm Ashley Merchant. I'm a criminal defense attorney from Atlanta, Georgia and today I am joined by my co host, Dave Aronberg. He is a former state attorney for Palm Beach County, Florida, and he's also the managing partner at Dave Aronberg Law. Hey Dave, how are you?

[Dave Aronberg]

I'm good, Ashley. Great to be with you. Let's go over what we have in the docket today, huh? First, we've got some updates in the Carmelo Anthony case. Tough criticism level at Anthony's parents by one of his new attorneys and concerns for the convicted murder safety behind bars. We'll bring you all the latest.

[Ashley Merchant]

Yeah, and we've got a few big developments in Tyler Robinson's case of last week. We'll break down Judge Graf's latest rulings and what they mean for the accused killer as the preliminary hearing is quickly approaching.

[Dave Aronberg]

Later, law and crime analyst and host of the Strong Enough podcast, Claudia King Will join us to discuss the murder trial of former Arkansas state football star Blaze Taylor, who's accused of fatally poisoning his girlfriend and their unborn baby in 2023. But first, Ashley, back to Carmelo Anthony. We previously discussed the new team taking on his appeal. Pro boner. That means for free. But last week, one of those attorneys made headlines for a Facebook post that has since been removed. With friends like these, who needs enemies, right?

[Ashley Merchant]

Yeah. You know, and I was curious about that Facebook post. I want to read it to our listeners. It's kind of crazy. You got to think about this is one of his attorneys. Now it's been removed, but we still have it. And it reads 35 years. I'm guessing, you know, responding to the sentence. They showed no mercy. Kind of hard when the defendant's parents had a pretty press conference mocking the dead victim's father right after the incident. Y' all non lawyers can argue about if he were guilty or not. Most real lawyers realize this was a punishment case. With that being the case. You simply don't run around going on a press tour touting a false narrative. I'm pissed. And it's the people that were around Carmela who sold this story to folks trying to sell racism for personal gain. Y' all really showed out this time.

[Dave Aronberg]

Wow.

[Ashley Merchant]

I mean, that's what a lot of us felt. You know, I mean, we've talked about it on this show where we were, you know, essentially blaming the parents, and how can you not? This is a kid, you know, he learns to take responsibility from his own parents, but this is one of his own lawyers. I'm kind of surprised that this lawyer ended up on the defense team after posting something like this, but it is kind of nice to see that someone's got this clarity, and hopefully they'll be able to shift the tide a little bit and how the defense handles this case.

[Dave Aronberg]

Yeah, there's one line in there that raised some questions. He says most real lawyers realize this was a punishment case. Did he mean by that that it's not about whether he's guilty or not because he's gonna be found guilty, but you want to reduce the penalty as much as possible, get him to a lower charge, a lower conviction, because it's all about fighting for to keep him out of prison as opposed to fighting to say that he was innocent? And that's where the previous lawyers went wrong? Do I have that right?

[Ashley Merchant]

Right? You definitely have that right. I mean, this Dave is not a whodunit. We know that he did it. I think the question Was he did it. And what level of culpability does he have? We all knew it's not a sel Pure walk, But it could be mitigation, and it could be mitigation for a couple different things. It could have been mitigation to try to get the actual crime level down, you know, before if he took a plea. It also could be mitigation to try and get the sentence down. And that's what I think he's referring to when he says punishment. And, you know, the more I've looked at the case, the more I think if I was handling it, something I would do if this. This family came to me is say, you know, look, the first thing you need to do is you need to accept responsibility for your role in this. This is not a strict self defense case. We understand that you might have felt that there was some def. Needed, but it's not a perfect strict self defense case. You're not going to walk free and get him to really get Carmela to really start accepting the reality that he's going to go to prison. It is hard to get a grown man to accept that. It is going to be a lot harder to get a child to accept it. So you've got to get the parents on board. And I think when he's talking from a defense lawyer standpoint, that's what he's really talking about. You know, as a defense lawyer, you've got to really, you got to be real with them. You got to say, look, your boy's going to do some time. Your son is going to do some prison time. The question is, do you want him to have a life at the end of that prison sentence or not? And I think if they had approached this differently and accepted responsibility, reached out early on, we could have seen a much less sentence than 35 years, which, I mean, for what is he now, 19? I mean, 35 years is a really long time where we could have seen something a whole lot more reasonable if he had just taken responsibility for his role in this.

[Dave Aronberg]

Totally agree. It really does matter. Showing remorse, admitting culpability, but instead you show no remorse. In fact, your family's mocking the father of the deceased. And that's not a good look. And even though judge is supposed to look at what's in that quorum at that time, judges are people too. They know what's going on. And that's something that his new lawyer called out. Well, so good for him. You know, one of his new lawyers is Lee Merritt, who is an accomplished civil rights attorney. In Texas, he was running for attorney general, if he still is, but he was planning on running for ag. Lee Merritt is someone that I met when I taught the trial advocacy workshop at Harvard Law School last winter. He and I were in the same group and we became friends. We were like, it cool.

[Ashley Merchant]

He's a good guy.

[Dave Aronberg]

I liked him.

[Ashley Merchant]

Well, tell us all about him.

[Dave Aronberg]

Oh, he was a cool guy. You know, he's a young, good in court. You know, he knows he's the kind of person, when he was teaching trial skills to the students, just had a very, very folksy, but it was very relatable demeanor. Like he could talk to. To people and not try to big time them. Right. I mean, that's why you can see how. Well, why he's such a successful trial lawyer. But this is not a trial anymore. This is an appeal. There are no juries here anymore. It's about appellate judges. And so it's interesting, I didn't know that he does a lot with appellate courts. He's an accomplice trial lawyer, so that should be interesting. Another thing is that he told the Daily Mail that because of the high profile nature of this case, there's been some concern about Carmela Anthony's safety. So now he's in protective custody. Apparently, though he said the concerns were from Anthony's supporters. He said there's a lot of chatter on the Internet, mostly well wishers trying to get to the jail and trying to send him things to the jail. All things are causing some safety concern. What's he talking about here?

[Ashley Merchant]

Yeah, you know, I had to think back. I've had some clients who were very well liked in the community and they've actually had similar issues where they're getting a lot of attention, they're getting, you know, money on their books, they're getting a lot of letters, and other inmates get angry. You gotta understand that the inmate culture is a completely different world. I mean, it is that, you know, everything about it is different. If you watched Orange is the New Black, you get it. I did, yeah. Yeah.

[Dave Aronberg]

So between of Men did. But it was a great show.

[Podcast Guest or Listener]

Yes.

[Ashley Merchant]

Well, think about it. For men, if you're getting a lot of attention in prison, that's not a good thing. The last thing you want in prison is attention. You want to kind of keep your head down and just keep to yourself and not get any attention. So other inmates are going to get angry if he's getting, you know, extra benefits and things like that. Because I mean, really, you've got to think about the Psychology. There's absolutely nothing to do in prison. So sometimes they're instigating things just to create entertainment for themselves. And you've got someone who's high profile, he's going to have a target because of that. So, I mean, this is normal. You know, there's a lot of different reasons that people might be put in protective custody. Most of the time it's what I would call a prophylactic. You know, they're. They're worried that maybe there's a threat or something like that. And in a case like this, where the world is watching so closely, you got to make sure that you keep Carmela safe. I think they should keep everybody safe, but they're going to be a little bit more conscious of that in a case like this, you know, and it doesn't really take that long to actually get someone processed. I know that was, you know, kind of a question that's coming about, how long does it take for someone to actually be placed in a prison? What they do is they do what's called diagnostic diagnostics. So they see if you have any health issues, you know, he's got epilepsy. They see if you have any specific needs, if you're eligible for working, if, you know, if there's some type of class or reformation, things you need to take. And they try to place you in the best place possible. So I think that's what we're seeing. And we'll probably see a much more long term placement in the next couple months as they sort of assess. Carmelo, assess everything that's going on. But I don't know if you saw. I thought this was interesting and it might signal something to us. Dave. They filed a motion to recuse the judge, which I thought, to me signals that they're probably going to file a motion for new trial, because otherwise, if they were just going straight to appeal, it wouldn't matter if they had Judge Roach. So I kind of am predicting that in the next couple days we're going to see a motion for new trial being filed in this case, and they're going to try to get this back in front of the trial court to develop some record, My guess, for ineffective assistance of counsel.

[Dave Aronberg]

Well, that I think is their best claim. It's hard to get, but I think that's the best they got. The judge gets a lot of discretion when it comes to jury selection. And I didn't see anything there that was so egregious that it would toss the conviction. So it's an uphill client for them to get a new trial, it's an uphill climb for them to win on appeal. I think Carmelo Anthony is going to be in prison for a long time. And he may not be the only one in prison. Ashley, you know who Jake Lang is?

[Ashley Merchant]

Oh my God. Yes, you could. Just keeps coming back, you know, it's

[Dave Aronberg]

not my side of the aisle, so I don't know, I didn't never heard of the guy. But apparently he's a far right influencer and pardoned January 6th writer. Oh boy. 31 years old. And he was among other agitators outside the courthouse who were arrested during the trial and apparently he made threats on a live stream. Yeah, not good. When you're saying that if the jury did not convict Carmelo Anthony that he would take care of it himself and deliver a headshot. Yeah, that's why he's held on a million dollar bond. And now the judge reduced the bond to $250,000. He did postpone and now he's given 24 hours to leave Texas. That's what. Here's my question, Ashley. First off, the trials in Texas, his trials in Texas, you're not allowed to leave, right?

[Ashley Merchant]

Normally it's the complete opposite. Normally you're not allowed to flee the jurisdiction. I know, that was kind of cr. I was like, wait, wait, wait. You're supposed to. I mean literally one of the things is you have to be there for trial. So I thought that was interesting. But they clearly don't want him in Texas. The only time I've seen something like that, a condition like that is on sentencing. You know, we had, we had. It reminded me of the young thug case here in Atlanta where one of the sentences, which I thought was just dumb as could be, one of the parts of the sentences was that he has to leave the metro Atlanta area. And I was like, why? You know, he generates so much tax dollars for the metro. Like why are you, you know, why now Miami, now you guys have all that benefit, you know, he's great life down there. But that was one of the conditions that he was banned. But it's so weird to see that on, you know, on a bond condition. I think we actually, we have a sot from it where, you know, Lang is saying that his expulsion from Texas is signifying a liberal takeover. If we can take a look at site one.

[Dave Aronberg]

Of course it is.

[Ashley Merchant]

Woo hoo.

[Simplisafe Voice Actor]

Going to get some barbecue and then get on a plane. Because I'm not allowed the first man in American history to be kicked out and banned from the state of Texas for my political ideologies, which also happen to be Ken Paxton's area here, the reddish area of Texas. They've kicked me out. This is how you know the shift is coming to Texas. When they kick out patriots, when they start to abuse judicial authority, what's next? Liberal takeover. Democrats are going to take Texas unless we win. We need to fight, stand and win. Texas should remain for Texas. Texas and Christians. This is a Christian state and a Christian country. God bless you guys. Thank you, Fox.

[Dave Aronberg]

Why did they keep rolling? He was done.

[Ashley Merchant]

Wow. Yeah, wow. I mean, I just see that being played in court one day. If he goes in front of the Texas tree. Oh my, my, my. Yeah, I don't think they're sad to. To see him go from the great state of Texas.

[Dave Aronberg]

Yeah, I guess now I realize why him gone from Texas. They want nowhere near. I mean that. Oh my gosh. And what's sad is that these days, that's who makes big money on the Internet. It's guys like that, the more inflammatory you are. I mean there's so much to unpack there. But let's just remind people that the liberal takeover of Texas. I think Texas still run a Republican governor, lieutenant governor, cabinet, two Republican U.S. senators. I don't see the liberal takeover maybe in his conspiracy filled mind. But whatever. He's trying to bring politics into something that doesn't deserve politics. This is about the criminal justice system. There was no partisanship involved with this case. And you know what they say, Ashley? They say, and this proves it, that a conservative is a liberal who's been mugged, but a liberal is a conservative who's been arrested.

[Ashley Merchant]

It's so true. It's very true.

[Dave Aronberg]

So I guess he'll be re registering as party affiliation.

[Ashley Merchant]

Yes, we'll wait and see.

[Claudia King]

See what?

[Ashley Merchant]

I'm sure he'll. I'm sure he'll keep us posted. I have no doubt that it will be lively and well known whatever does happen with him.

[Podcast Guest or Listener]

Insane.

[Dave Aronberg]

You know, we don't talk politics on this channel because we're not a political channel. Although the mothership does, you know, Megyn Kelly does. But I mean, that was just ridiculous. Well, it was.

[Ashley Merchant]

And I mean, the thing is, you know, he's doing terroristic threats on recording. He's literally doing the crime of terroristic threats. And I'm not a big fan of the CR of terroristic threats, but you know, I think it's overused. That's a whole nother rant. But it's done. I mean, he did it on video so you know he's kind of guilty of that.

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We'll see.

[Ashley Merchant]

We'll see where it goes.

[Dave Aronberg]

When Ashley Merchant, accomplished criminal defense attorney, says you're guilty. Oh man.

[Ashley Merchant]

Like you kind of did it and you did it on recording. Like I don't know what you're supposed to do. But good luck to his defense lawyer.

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[Ashley Merchant]

You know. Another case that let's hope doesn't really turn political is Tyler Robinson. We've got some updates on that, Dave. So he was just in court. I thought this was really interesting, and I want to kind of unpack some stuff that was going on here today. So what happened was he had a court hearing, and we've got a couple of things to talk about. We got the gag order we got to talk about. But first, I want to talk about this preliminary hearing that's coming up, because it's coming up right around the corner. And just to catch everyone up, you know, he is the person who shot. I mean, it's, you know, it's alleged at this point, but he shot and killed Charlie Kirk. I think it's fair to say that. And he's facing the death penalty in Utah. So his preliminary hearing is actually scheduled to begin July 6th. So that's gonna be something that everybody wants to check out. And they have been litigating all around what is allowed to come in at the prelim, which is just crazy to me. I mean, this is insane to me that they're litigating this preliminary hearing this much. But I understand that it's obviously high stakes, but just to catch everyone up, a preliminary hearing really is just the opportunity for the state to establish that they have probable cause to continue detaining someone for the case to continue and move forward. And what they've been litigating recently is one of these witnesses who was actually Tyler's roommate and alleged romantic partner. His name is Lance Twiggs. The defense wanted to put Lance on the stand at the preliminary hearing, which, as a defense lawyer, shocked me, and I'll tell you why in a minute. But there's really no need because hearsay is admissible at these hearings. So why would you need to call the person that's. That says the stuff when you can just admit hearsay? And essentially, Twigs told law enforcement that Robinson had actually confessed to him about the shooting via text and admitted to hiding the firearm, admitted to disposing of the clothes he was wearing at the time of the crime. And then that Robinson told him to please not tell law enforcement, but again, he did. He told him. And then he got what we call use immunity for his recorded statement. He made a recorded statement to law enforcement. And so law enforcement can't actually use that. But apparently the defense wants him on the stand to ask him a little bit more about this immunity agreement, which, Dave, they can just get. They're going to get that discovery. I mean, that's what we call Giglio evidence. Like why? I don't really understand why they think they need it at this preliminary hearing, other than wanting to get it early on.

[Dave Aronberg]

Well, isn't the reason why they have these probable cause hearings is to help the defense? I mean, the prosecution has so much evidence, it's like a fait accompli. This is going to trial. This is not gonna get dismissed for lack of evidence. And so it's to the advantage of the defense to try to get as much as possible in advance and to cross examine people. This is gonna be a key witness for the government and they wanna be able to get them on there and try to ask him lots of questions. So I can see why they're gonna do it. I mean, I don't think they're gonna get much out of them, but. Yeah, I mean, I guess it's worth a shot, right? I mean, they're trying to throw anything against the wall that they. To see if it will stick. They tried to ban cameras from the courtroom. That failed. They tried to sanction the prosecutors that actually still has life, which is ridiculous, but I know.

[Ashley Merchant]

Yeah, well, yeah, and we'll talk about that in a minute. Of a gag order. Yeah, I mean, you know, I think it's risky, though, to try to call a witness like this at a preliminary hearing, because you have a right to confront witnesses, but you don't have a right to confront them multiple times. And so one of the things that we as defense lawyers are always worried about, if you call a witness at a preliminary hearing, you get to cross examine them. So you don't necessarily get another chance to cross examine them. I mean, in practice you do because the state wants to call them, you know, at trial to testify so the jury can actually see them and assess them, but you don't necessarily get that. That chance again. So it's definitely risky. They must think that there's something significant with this immunity agreement. And, you know, I'm wondering what their client is telling them about this gentleman's involvement. Mr. Twigs. Because what the defense really wants to get at is his. His agreement to be immune from prosecution. So was he potentially involved? You know, he's got what they call youth immunity. That's not absolute immunity. So you know, are they trying to signify to us that there may be some involvement for Mr. Twigs?

[Dave Aronberg]

Every time he. Sorry. Every time you see Mr. Twigs, I think of South Park. Okay, I'm sorry, I think of Mr. Mackey. Do you remember Mr. Mackey? He had like Mr. Hand and then Mr. Twigs.

[Courtroom Audio/Judge]

Mr. Twigs.

[Simplisafe Voice Actor]

That's. Yeah.

[Ashley Merchant]

It's interesting when you say Twigs.

[Dave Aronberg]

It doesn't matter. Do it for me or lance twigs. But Mr. Twigs, like. Okay, I don't know if you know it, but that's a South park reference. So. Okay, so I don't know. But now you're saying that they wouldn't be able to cross examine Twigs again, but they would at trial. If he testifies at trial, which I'm sure he would. So they could do the double header of testify.

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[Ashley Merchant]

If he testifies at trial, yes. But if he doesn't. So I'm always, I always think worst case scenario. So let's say Mr. Twiggs testifies at the prelim and then, oopsie, Mr. Twiggs is no longer with us. They would be able to bring in that testimony because it was, it was confronted, it was cross examined testimony. It's obviously not desirable, but they could. And so, you know, typically the defense doesn't want to call witnesses like this at the preliminary hearing because we could get stuck with that testimony. But I think we actually have the SOT, SOT 2, where the judge, he ruled on it, he said, Guess what, Mr. Twigs, you're not testifying. If we could play SOT2.

[Courtroom Audio/Judge]

Tyler James Robinson seeks an order preventing the state of Utah from relying on hearsay to establish probable cause at his upcoming preliminary hearing. The court hereby respectfully denies the defendant's motion for the reasons set forth below. In Utah, the primary purpose of preliminary hearing is limited to determining whether probable cause exists. The court recognizes that defendants constitutional concerns are substantial and warrant careful consideration of. Nevertheless, the court's analysis is guided by a limited function of the preliminary hearing and the governing precedent interpreted in Article 1, Section 12 in State v. Timmerman, the Utah Supreme Court determined that full application of a defendant's right to confrontation is necessary at trial, but not at the preliminary hearing.

[Dave Aronberg]

Yeah, right. That's right. I mean, that's the right ruling.

[Ashley Merchant]

Yeah, no, it's definitely the right ruling. And you know It'll be fun, though. We'll get to see that on July 8th. But did you see the prosecutor in this case, Chris Ballard? He was recently held in contempt because he went on this little tour, a media tour, in response to, you know, with a gag order and in response to a motion that the defense filed, a written motion. What was he thinking?

[Dave Aronberg]

He was trying to counter the defense's public mischaracteration, mischaracterization of the ATF report. So.

[Ashley Merchant]

So file a written motion in response. Like, that's what I'm not getting. Because, you know, their argument was in writing.

[Dave Aronberg]

He should.

[Ashley Merchant]

I don't know, I think he risked it a lot by doing that.

[Dave Aronberg]

It just. You know, as a former prosecutor, it's always frustrating if the defense goes out there and sets the narrative. Even though there's a gag order. Right.

[Ashley Merchant]

I mean, there's a gag order. No, they shouldn't do it either.

[Dave Aronberg]

Right? So they're out there sending this, spreading falsehoods about what the ATF report says. So now people are like, aha. There's not a ballistic match. This is a conspiracy. This must be a foreign government doing it. Which is, of course, garbage. And so the prosecutors are like, like, I'm going to counter this because this is going to tank the jury pool. Plus, it feeds the wildfire of misinformation and conspiracy theories. So all he did was issue a mild generic statement, generally saying, well, when the results of a bullet fragment analysis come back as inconclusive, it only means the fragment did not contain enough detail for the examiner to determine whether the characteristics of the fragment were consistent with having been fired by a particular firearm. And for that, he's going to be put in the who's cow? Come on.

[Ashley Merchant]

Well, I mean, he's. So he's held in contempt. And before we move on, I know we just have a minute left, but let's play slot three so we can see what the judge had to say to this prosecutor.

[Courtroom Audio/Judge]

When an elected prosecutor or their deputy makes public declarations regarding the strength of evidence or their belief in ultimate outcome of the trial, those words carry particular weight and authority of the government, stating that the prosecution has ample evidence to demonstrate beyond a reasonable doubt that Tyler Robinson committed this murder, reasonably communicated to the public the prosecutor's assessment of the defendant's guilt, that the defendant was guilty. While Mr. Ballard offered a cursory nod to the presumption of innocence, he immediately undercut it by publicly broadcasting his belief that the state will overcome his presumption of innocence. These statements were not reasonably necessary under Rule 3.6C to mitigate the confusion surrounding the ATF report. Rather, those additional public statements possessed a substantial likelihood of materially prejudicing the proceedings by communicating the prosecutor's assessment of the defendant's guilt.

[Ashley Merchant]

He went on multiple news outlets. I think he was pretty close there, but hopefully he'll keep it a little tame. But next up, we've got law and crime analyst and host of the Strong Enough podcast, Claudia King. And she is gonna join us to discuss the Tennessee murder trial of former college football star Blaze Taylor. Stay tuned.

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[Dave Aronberg]

Welcome back to the MK True Crime Show. Joining us now is former law enforcement officer, certified domestic violence expert, and host of the Strong Enough podcast, Claudia King. First off, that's Strong Enough, not Tough Enough, which was the WWE show where you compete to be a professional wrestler. This is different and way better, by the way. So welcome, Claudia. Let's start with the Blaze Taylor trial. Now, we haven't talked about this case yet, so can you give the audience an overview about it?

[Claudia King]

Absolutely. And for those of you who have been football fans for a while, this is the modern day Ray Carruth, as I see it. So Blaze Taylor was a college football player and was a scout for the Titans, and he got his girlfriend pregnant, Allegedly, it was seemingly his. And apparently he did not want the child. And so he was trying to convince Jade Benning to not have the child. And when she did not do that, allegedly he obtained some liquid cocaine, put it in a beverage of hers, which then killed both her and the child. The defense's argument is that she herself took the medication or the drugs. She dabbled in marijuana previously, and so she accidentally overdosed. And right now we're in the defense case. So it's been pretty interesting thus far.

[Ashley Merchant]

Yeah. So I'm curious about this whole drinking cocaine thing, you know, and I get the defense because when I heard it, immediately I thought, okay, well, the defense has to be that she did this herself. You know, that has to be. But I don't know any recreational drug users, and I have never. And I've been doing criminal defense for 22 years that drink cocaine. So, I mean, did you hear anything from, like, the Emmys testimony that shed any light on this? Like, did you do they. Are they actually saying that this lady drank cocaine voluntarily?

[Claudia King]

I mean, that's what the defense is trying to tell us. Now, what prosecution is saying is that he put it in some lemonade so she couldn't taste it. He mixed it with some alcohol as well. But like you, as a former police officer, I have also run into a lot of drug users. Liquid cocaine is not typically on the menu. So it kind of leads me to believe he did obtain this from some other sources that he might have access to in the professional sports field.

[Dave Aronberg]

Now, this is such a horrifying case. And you're right to compare to Ray Carruth, who was convicted of doing essentially the same thing, although I don't believe he used the liquid cocaine. That's something I agree with. Actually, I've never heard of that. And I'm surprised it took a year until he was arrested. Remember, police investigators first thought this was A medical emergency. But she's a 25 year old woman just to keel over and die. And they find cocaine in her system. That's not something you normally take if you're pregnant. And then the liquid cocaine. So it took them a year to make the arrest. And we've got this chilling audio provided by the victim's best friend. In fact, let's play this so we can talk about it. Slot 4.

[Witness or Audio Clip Speaker]

What did you put in my drink? I knew my drink tasted funny. You did this because you didn't want to fake. Those are a few of Jake Benning's last words heard by her very best friend, Nyjdf Jackson. Words that she heard spoken to Blake Taylor over the phone 20 minutes before Ents would find J. Benny pulseless. EMTs found Jay Benning face down, laying across her bed. Not in her bed, across her bed, face down. She was pulseless.

[Dave Aronberg]

Oh man. And apparently the concentration of cocaine in Benning's blood was higher than anything the entire medical examiner's office had seen. Which for those of us who have worked in this field, I mean, medical examiner has seen everything. For this to be the highest. That's unbelievable, Claudia.

[Claudia King]

Absolutely crazy. And to me, something that again points to that this was not something she did to herself. I don't think even if she were going to recreationally use cocaine, I don't think A, it would be liquid and B, it would be at such a ridiculously high concentration. And I think if we look at the, the scene where they found her laying across the bed face down, what was he doing during this time? If he was supposedly concerned about her well being, why was he not trying to do anything to assist her in those moments when he was calling 911.

[Ashley Merchant]

Yeah, and essentially. So it sounds like the defense, I mean, I know we've got one of the SOTs from their opening statements, but you said earlier they're saying that she's the one that did this, this was her doing this herself, which, and I'm a defense lawyer, and that seems like a stretch, but also they're arguing, and I wasn't thrilled with this argument either, that the ME couldn't rule out the death being a homicide, so that the jury should conclude that it wasn't a homicide, essentially, but doing this long enough, you know, and we'll listen to that in a minute. But you know, mes, I mean, homicide, accident or natural causes, like there's not a whole lot of other options out there. So I think it, you know, I don't know that this is gonna Carry a lot of weight. But let's. I'm curious your thoughts on that. If we can listen to SOT5 and then get your thoughts on that argument and how far that's going to go.

[Prosecutor or Defense Attorney Audio Clip]

Go that you will look at the facts of this case based on the allegations before you and not things that the state throws in to give you a red herring to put on your hardship. Say, focus on the evidence about whether or not that at the end of the day, much like Dr. Carney, did you hear enough evidence that at the end of the trial, in the same way that Dr. Carney cannot rule this a homicide, you can realistically, honestly to lay your head down that night, get to the conclusion that it was bla Taylor who caused his death.

[Ashley Merchant]

And I think they're just arguing reasonable doubt there, really. But, you know, tell me, I'm curious your thoughts on that argument.

[Claudia King]

Yeah, I mean, I hope the jury doesn't really put a lot of stock into that because the medical examiner is kind of operating under a different set of parameters. And like you said, they only have those specific boxes and if they can't definitively put it in a box, they can't check the box. So it's a little different though, than putting together all the evidence and being able to say beyond a reasonable doubt, we say this was a homicide, we're not going to factor that in.

[Witness or Audio Clip Speaker]

Right.

[Ashley Merchant]

And that's really, that's the jury's determination, you know, because the ME I mean, if you're shot, you know, you're shot in the back, it's easy to say, well, yeah, that's a homicide, you know, or if you died from blunt force trauma that you didn't get from falling, it's a lot easier for them to say that it's a homicide. But when there's drug ingestion, you know, and she could have. Could she have ingested it? Yes, yes. But it is up to the jury to decide. I mean, yeah, she could have up to the jury to decide if that makes sense or if the state has proven beyond a reasonable doubt that he most likely did it. And so, you know, we've got. We got into day two or day one. I'm sorry, day one of the testimony. And we heard from a lot of the first responders. It sounds like, you know, there were a lot of folks trying to. Explaining the scene. And it looked to me like there was a lot of people talking about how he acted at the scene and how he acted at the, you know, once they were actually at the hospital. So you can tell us a little bit about that and your impressions on that, his. His response and things like that.

[Claudia King]

You know, it's interesting because I always try to say we shouldn't judge how people act because everybody's different in, you know, traumatic situations or stressful situations. But at the same time in saying that, we can look at the behavior of people sometimes and make some conclusions. And one of those is what I mentioned earlier, where he's not doing anything to assist her. He just leaves her laying across the bed face down, and that's how the EMTs find her. And then when he's at the hospital, you know, some people say he's a little concerned, some people, you know, not so much. So I think his behavior really isn't going to tell us a whole lot other than what we saw at the scene afterwards. You can manufacture a lot of things.

[Dave Aronberg]

Yeah, I really. In day one, when you had the emt, or is it, I think it was from the fire department who testified, either fire department or the paramedic, that, that Taylor, the defendant, was so crazy and anxious and frantic while they were treating Ms. Benning that he interfered with the efforts to treat her. And so that is just. I mean, it's bad enough that you allegedly did it, but then you're there not helping her, and then when people come over to help, you're getting in the way. And it became so unsafe for them, the paramedics, that they could not give her immediate cpr, so they had to wait until she was in the ambulance to give full resuscitation efforts. I mean, that's exactly what you say normally. You say people act in strange ways, people grieve in different ways. But here it really looks like a strategy, doesn't it, Claudia?

[Claudia King]

It absolutely does. And maybe they got there quicker than he anticipated, and so he had to start. Start getting involved because, you know, who knows if he really wanted both of them to die or did he just want something to happen that killed the baby? We don't know. But in that moment when the paramedics are there, like he's got a fight and get in the way because he's got to make sure, allegedly, that item one gets taken care of. And item one is that the baby does not survive the. This attack.

[Ashley Merchant]

That's. That's honestly what I keep thinking this is about, because he had to know if she died, they're going to do an autopsy. They're going to see the cocaine, you know, and so I kept. I keep thinking that he was just hoping that maybe it didn't kill her. Maybe it made her a little sick and, you know, that she didn't know and instead that she just miscarried, you know, almost that he was forcing that. Because, you know, as we'll talk about in a minute, we've heard some testimony that he had wanted to try to get an abortion pill, you know, from a girlfriend, another instance. And so that doesn't seem that far stretch to me, because why would he give her cocaine if he really wanted to kill her? They're obviously going to find that out if they go to the hotel, you know, if they go to the hospital. Like, that's. I mean, that just. That makes no sense to me. We also heard on day two of testimony, we heard that he went back to the apartment, Benning's mother actually came to the apartment and said it smelled like cleaning products. So I'm not quite sure what he was cleaning up. If he maybe mixed this up himself, you know, this drug concoction or something like that, why it smelled like cleaning products. But I thought that was a little bit interesting and that they were trying to figure out what happened. But they did take some things from the crime scene. They took some photos and gloves. But it doesn't sound like that's going to have a whole lot of effect on this trial because this really isn't what I would consider a crime scene heavy case. You think that would have any effect, you know, any of this tampering of the crime scene? I mean, I just can't imagine that it would in this case.

[Claudia King]

I don't think so. I mean, it's obviously unfortunate that the police and I don't want a Monday morning quarterback, but that they didn't treat it like a crime scene initially and secure the scene and gather everything they could. But like you said, Ashley, I think, you know, the comforter, not that big of a deal. It had her vomit on it that they tested, and it had fentanyl and cocaine on it, I think. You know, so I. I don't think this is a scene that's going to rely on DNA or rely on, you know, some other type of fingerprints, because all that's going to be there of his is. And I don't think he was somewhere in a lab coat like, mixing up this stuff. He just doesn't strike me as that kind of person. I could be wrong, but I agree with you. I don't think that it's going to be too detrimental that the crime scene wasn't secured and we don't have a lot of evidence from the scene.

[Dave Aronberg]

It seems like that's their best defense, though, is to just talk about reasonable doubt and blame police and just accuse the victim of being a drug abuser. Even though the evidence shows that once months she knew she was pregnant, she never missed an obgyn appointment, she took it seriously. She didn't do any more drugs. She was very happy about having this baby. So it would be totally counterintuitive to say it. And then she's overloading on cocaine. And then you have, as Ashley mentioned, this woman, Apple Denny, who is an ex girlfriend of the defendant, who said that the defendant got another woman pregnant, was looking for an abortion drug. So let's play SA6 on that.

[Witness or Audio Clip Speaker]

What was it that he came to

tell you about that he got her pregnant?

And what was the time frame that this occurred?

This was the summer of 2017.

And what was his demeanor like when he came to you to tell you about this?

Very erratic. He, like, was upset, didn't want to have a baby with her. That's what he was telling me, that this was something that he couldn't do. He was googling things. So he was looking stuff up to figure out how she, like, if there was something he could do to make her have an abortion and asked me if I could get the abortion pills and he could make her take them or put it in her drink.

[Ashley Merchant]

Damning testimony. I mean, that's hard to get around it.

[Claudia King]

It really is. And of course the defense is saying, oh, this is just a jaded ex girlfriend. She just wants to get him in trouble. But the similarities in what she's talking about with crushing things up, putting it in her drink, Googling criminals. I mean, I don't want to help them, but stop googling things. People like, it's never a good idea. But yeah, I think this witness was terrible. Terrible for the defense. Yeah.

[Ashley Merchant]

I wonder if we'll hear about that Googling, you know, unless we see some evidence of googling. You know, I wonder if we're going to hear about that in closing arguments. Like, where is that Google search? You know, where's the truth of that? I mean, if they're going to try to undercut her, her credibility, I think, I think we may see that again. So you said it's the defense case, so they're continuing this week with trial. When do they expect it to be done?

[Claudia King]

I think the defense today had about 10 more witnesses, so they're. They're rolling through them still today. They were on their own examiner or forensic person today talking about the different testing and the cocaine metabolites and things like that. We don't know yet if Mr. Taylor is going to testify, so that'll be an interesting revelation as well.

[Ashley Merchant]

Yeah, well, we will be following it and definitely keeping up with that. But while we have you, I want to talk about another case, a case we frequently talked about here on MK True Crime. Bryan Kohberger, apparently you got to talk with Kaylee's mother, Christy, recently, which, I mean, that's amazing. And she has apparently started a foundation recently in Kaylee's name, and it says murder has a Name. Can you tell us about that?

[Claudia King]

That I would love to. Do you want to hear about the foundation?

[Ashley Merchant]

Yes, I want to hear about both. So you tell. Tell me what you want to talk about first. But I want to hear about both of them.

[Claudia King]

I'll start with the talk, which was primarily about the foundation. But what we also talked about was this newly formed friendship that Christy made with who is now the executive director of the foundation. Her name's Tracy. And this friendship was really formed out of the tragedy of what happened to Kaylee and the three other students in Idaho. And I just really wanted to hear from her, you know, how this friendship was formed and then how Christy has been able to take such a tragedy and move it into a place of doing good for others. Because we know a lot of people just go away and close the door and segregate themselves from society when something bad happens. And Christy and Steve decided that they wanted to do something differently. And because DNA is what solved their case, they want to help fund other cases. So they want to have Murder has a Name, allow police departments to send in an application if they don't have the funding to do DNA testing, because it can be tens of thousands of dollars depending on what's being tested and how many items are tested and how complicated the testing is. So they want to be able to help support that for others, because we know that I think over 1300 cases have been solved using DNA testing and then also using investigative genetic genealogy, which is kind of also new on the horizon. And Christy just wants to make sure that no other person has to suffer the way she and Steve and the other families did for that six or seven weeks that they were waiting and didn't know who had done what he did to their children.

[Ashley Merchant]

That's amazing. That is truly amazing. So many unsolved cases, too. They could help. So how is their family doing? I think it is amazing. Like you, you said that they're using this to do better. I think I would probably never be able to come out again. But that's amazing that they're actually trying to do good with it. How are they doing through all of this?

[Claudia King]

Really well. Christy is a spitfire, I will tell you. She is a lot of energy in a really small package. She's an amazing human being. It's like just talking to a friend the first time that you meet her. But they're doing very well. They don't really interact a ton with the other families right now. And they just sent their youngest daughter to college, which was kind of difficult. She was in 10th grade, I believe, when everything happened. And you know, to have to send another one away looking at what happened before is really challenging. But they are both putting a ton of effort into this foundation that is really where they're pouring all of their energy. And I know that it's going to be a huge success, not only for them, but for other victims who don't have the answers that they're still waiting on.

[Dave Aronberg]

That is such a noble effort and we really appreciate having you on the show. We want to thank you and we want you to tell our audience where they can find you.

[Claudia King]

Thank you so much. They can find me on all the socials at RealClaudia King and on YouTube. EalClaudia King and Strong Enough is available anywhere that you can find podcasts.

[Dave Aronberg]

That was Claudia King. Thank you for joining us. And next, our closing arguments. Stay tuned.

[Ashley Merchant]

I'm Hannah.

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[Ashley Merchant]

welcome back to the MK True Crime Show. Now it's time for our closing arguments. Dave, after you.

[Dave Aronberg]

Well, Ashley, in my closing argument I want to talk about a case that we may end up covering here at MK True Crime. When I served for 12 years as state Attorney, I saw some pretty sick stuff. Over time you can become a bit numb to the depravity within human souls. And then you get a truly shocking case case. It reminds you that you still have the capacity for horror and outrage. And that's how I feel as the details come out of Michigan regarding this death of a seven year old named Casper o'. Brien. It's a case that I expect will cover soon enough, but let me give you a little preview. This little boy died weighing 255 pounds. He was bedridden, completely immobile and trapped in a hoarding environment. His parents, Damien and Jessica o', Brien, faced charges including second degree murder and torture. Let me be crystal clear here. This isn't an unfortunate health tragedy. This is a case of extreme, prolonged criminal neglect. The father had a stable job with good health insurance, yet they skipped specialist appointments and hid this boy from the world. In fact, reports show that on the very morning that Casper died, these people actually called a veterinarian to help their sick dog while their own son was left to suffocate on his makeshift bed. They knew exactly how to seek medical care. They just, just apparently allegedly didn't care enough to do it for their child. Everyone is entitled to a defense. And you're innocent until proven guilty. But you don't have to be a prosecutor to know that a weapon doesn't have to be a gun or a knife to kill someone. You can kill a child just as maliciously with a deliberate, calculated indifference. Casper deserved a protector. What he allegedly got was a death sentence from the people who were supposed to love him most. That's my closing statement. Ashley, sorry to bring you down.

[Ashley Merchant]

You definitely did. But I'm glad that we're gonna get to cover it and bring light to these people. And I hope that they're held accountable because it is an awful case. And you know, you know, you're welcoming a child. And I've got two kids. Anybody who watches this show knows I'm about to lose my mind in a month when one of them goes off to college. But. But we love them. We're their protectors. And it's awful. So thank you for bringing that case up. And let me talk on a little bit different note, actually, a lot of different note. So I wanna talk about a case we talked about a little bit earlier, which was Tyler Robinson. We were talking about how the prosecutor got in trouble for the gag order. And shocking to most, but I have been subject to gag order plenty of times in my career or the attempt of a gag order. And I really just don't like them. And so I just wanna talk a little bit about that for a minute.

[Prosecutor or Defense Attorney Audio Clip]

It.

[Ashley Merchant]

So we're constantly told that lawyers should try cases not in the court of public opinion. We should try them in the courtroom. Fine. Fine. That's great. But here's my question, and Dave alluded to this earlier in the show. Who started. Who starts the public trial in the first place? Who actually is the one that brings the things out to the world to hear? In almost every high profile case, criminal case, law enforcement, they announced the arrest. You see them up at a podium, and then you see prosecutors holding a press conference. You see mug shots splashed all over every news outlets. You see the allegations repeated over and over for days, sometimes weeks, before the defense even gets a single page of discovery. Take this case. Take the case of Tyler Robinson. And I'm certainly not advocating for him. But what I'm saying is they haven't gotten even the immunity agreement yet. Yet in that case. So the defense definitely doesn't get information. The news is having tons of information. So by the time that the defense actually gets something, the public has already reached a verdict. Typically then the moment the defense Responds. Everybody suddenly starts talking about gag orders. Don't misunderstand me. Defense lawyers should not be free to say whatever it is that they want to say. We have ethical rules that prohibit that. We have ethical rules that prohibit statements that are likely to prejudice a fair trial. But the irony, the irony, and I think it's really interesting, the Tyler Robinson case is even prosecutors sometimes struggle to stay within the boundaries of these orders. And if the lawyers enforcing the rules can find themselves accused of violating them, maybe that tells us something about how difficult and sometimes unevenly applied these restrictions really are. As a criminal defense lawyer, what concerns me is this. If the government gets to go publicly accuse someone, put their mug shot all over the news, shape the narrative, dominate the headlines, shouldn't the person accused have some meaningful opportunity to respond? Shouldn't we get to answer? The First Amendment does not end at the courthouse steps and neither does the presumption of innocence. So we've got to have those two living together. If we're serious about fairness, we've got to figure out how to allow media in our courtrooms, how to allow public discourse, public discussion. Because public discussion is not the enemy of justice. Sometimes it's actually the only thing reminding us that the system, that the public is actually watching, it's very important. And it's so important, it's actually grounded in our Constitution. So we as a society have to figure out how to merge all of these concepts together so that we can actually participate, because we want to see what's happening in the courtrooms and we want to be able to have that public discussion about it. So that's my closing argument. And I want to thank my co host today, Dave Aronberg, and also our guest, Claudia King, and thank everyone here for joining us. We hope you have a great week.

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