Karmelo Anthony’s Fate, Nick Reiner Seeks Trust Fund for Defense, and Defending Clients Like Weinstein and Diddy, with Teny Geragos

Summary

MK True Crime Podcast: “Karmelo Anthony’s Fate, Nick Reiner Seeks Trust Fund for Defense, and Defending Clients Like Weinstein and Diddy”

Host: MK Media — Megyn Kelly’s True Crime Network

Guests: Mark Geragos, Ashley Merchant, Tenny Garagos

Date: June 12, 2026

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Episode Overview

This episode of MK True Crime is packed with expert legal analysis and insider stories from the world of criminal defense. Host Ashley Merchant, legendary trial attorney Mark Geragos, and special guest Tenny Garagos (Mark’s daughter and a renowned defense attorney herself) discuss three sensational criminal cases dominating headlines: the Carmelo Anthony stabbing trial, Nick Reiner’s bid to unlock his trust fund for his legal defense, and the challenges of defending individuals accused of high-profile sex crimes (like Harvey Weinstein and Diddy). The conversation is candid, unvarnished, and offers rare insight into the moral and practical complexities of defending the most vilified clients in the justice system.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Carmelo Anthony Trial: Race, Media, and Self-Defense in Texas

• [03:23] The Carmelo Anthony case has incited “a firestorm” (Mark Geragos) due to its complex racial dynamics and the debate over the fairness of the trial.
• Case Recap:
  • Carmelo Anthony, 17, stabbed a rival student, Austin Metcalf, at a track meet, claiming self-defense. Jury rejected the self-defense claim.
  • The incident was made even more controversial by its racial overtones—Anthony is Black, Metcalf was white.
  • Lack of courtroom cameras led to misinformation and rumors, including speculation it was an all-white jury, which was not accurate.
• [05:53] Ashley Merchant: “As a defense lawyer, sometimes your best defense is to plea for mercy... Instead of blaming the victim and claiming self-defense, maybe he should have owned up to it; he could have gotten a whole lot less time in prison.”
• Texas Justice:
  • The trial took place in one of Texas’ most conservative, law-and-order counties.
  • In Texas, juries sentence defendants directly after a guilty verdict—much swifter than in other states.
• [07:06] Mark Geragos: “If the jury is supposed to be the conscience of the community, you’d want their input on punishment.”
• Racial Dynamics:
  • Both Geragos and Merchant discuss how juror selection is rarely politically correct, and the system is racially skewed.
  • [09:31] Mark Geragos: “At least historically, those who get prosecuted are predominantly black and brown, especially in California.”
  • They draw comparisons to the Zimmerman trial and the brute reality that race often predicts opinions about such cases.
• [13:39] Tenny Garagos: “You definitely do [know how people will react to the case based on demographics].”

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2. The Nick Reiner Trust Fund Battle

• [14:32] Conversation pivots to Nick Reiner’s legal fight to access his trust fund for his defense in the murder of his parents.
• Background:
  • Alan Jackson, famed attorney, was initially hired, then left due to non-payment (“Mr. Green” = money missing).
  • Now, Reiner seeks access to a childhood trust, which he claims is overdue to him, to fund his defense.
• [15:22] Ashley Merchant: “Is he going to be allowed to do this?”
• [15:36] Mark Geragos: “I think he will.”
  • Explains that the trust is separate from any inheritance that would be blocked by ‘slayer statutes.’
  • Courts are likely to allow access for attorney’s fees, as it saves taxpayer resources.
  • [18:01] Ashley Merchant: “Think about all the funds... the judge is thinking that—save the taxpayer dollars.”

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3. Inside the Mind of a Criminal Defense Lawyer: Growing Up Garagos

• [20:02] Tenny Garagos joins to discuss her journey into criminal defense and following the family tradition.
• Generational Stories:
  • Tenny describes entering the profession as both a calling and a natural consequence of her upbringing.
  • [21:07] Tenny Garagos: “I love our line of work... It’s one of the more difficult jobs out there... but it’s the most gratifying job I could have chosen.”
  • The personal toll is discussed: lawyers and their families “carry the trauma” of the cases.
  • [23:08] Tenny Garagos: “We carry their trauma for them... It’s not just us, but our families as well. It is kind of the hardest thing in the whole world.”
  • Mark recounts his own childhood surrounded by legal talk and famed cases, and how Tenny is now the third generation to live that experience.
• Memorable Moment:
  • [27:10] Mark Geragos: “Watching Tenny give the opening statement for Sean’s trial... I was thinking... her great-granddaughter is delivering a sex trafficking opening statement in the Southern District. It shows you how great America is and made a father very proud.”

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4. Defending the “Indefensible”: Sex Crimes, Public Outrage, and Client Humanity

• [28:31] Both Tenny and Ashley discuss the unique onus female defense attorneys face when representing men accused of sex crimes.
• Combating Misconceptions:
  • Both are often asked: “How can you defend people accused of sex crimes?”
  • [29:12] Tenny Garagos: “It is mind-boggling to me how difficult it is for people to understand that I would defend somebody... Everybody deserves a defense.”
  • [30:24] Ashley Merchant: “They’re the most likely to be innocent... reasonable doubt is ignored in sex crimes. The law is stacked against us.”
• Victim-Perpetrator Complexity:
  • [31:19] Tenny Garagos: Notes how many male defendants have been traumatized or victimized themselves—if female, would be seen as victims, not perpetrators.
  • Disputes published data on false allegations, stating real-life practice suggests actual rates are much higher.
• The Real Toll of Defense:
  • [32:33] Mark Geragos: “I sleep just fine, except when I believe they’re innocent. And that’s when I lose sleep... it eats away at your soul.”

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5. Notable Quotes & Standout Moments

• [05:53] Ashley Merchant:

  “Instead of blaming the victim and claiming self-defense, maybe [Anthony] should have owned up to it... He could probably have gotten a whole lot less time in prison.”

• [09:31] Mark Geragos:

  “At least historically, those who get prosecuted are predominantly black and brown, especially in California.”

• [21:07] Tenny Garagos:

  “...The most gratifying job that I think that we could... have chosen to do. And it’s also kind of all that I know.”

• [23:08] Tenny Garagos:

  “We carry their trauma for them... It’s not just us, but our families as well. It is kind of the hardest thing in the whole world.”

• [27:10] Mark Geragos:

  “Watching Tenny give the opening statement for Sean’s trial... I was thinking... her great-grandmother escaped from a Turkish orphanage... And her great-granddaughter is delivering a sex trafficking opening statement... It shows you how great America is and made a father very proud.”

• [29:12] Tenny Garagos:

  “It is mind boggling to me how difficult it is for people to understand that I would defend somebody... I continue to represent people who are accused of sex offenses because everybody deserves a defense.”

• [32:33] Mark Geragos:

  “I sleep just fine, except when I believe they’re innocent. And that’s when I lose sleep. It eats away at your soul.”

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6. Timestamps for Major Segments

• Carmelo Anthony Trial: 03:23–13:39
• Nick Reiner Trust Fund Case: 14:32–18:08
• Tenny Garagos on Family & Defending High-Profile Clients: 20:02–28:31
• Defending Sex Crimes, Systemic Issues, and Personal Toll: 28:31–34:21
• Reflections on CrimeCon and Legal Culture: 37:06–39:03

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Tone & Style

• The episode is forthright, unfiltered, and marked by camaraderie between veteran (and family) lawyers.
• Legal expertise is delivered with dry wit and no-nonsense realism—e.g. jury selection is “the farthest thing from politically correct.”
• Deep empathy for defendants runs alongside a frank acknowledgment of the difficulties and moral ambiguities defense attorneys face.
• The Garagos family's generational saga offers a uniquely personal lens on the profession’s emotional cost and rewards.

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For Listeners Who Missed the Episode

This podcast is essential listening for anyone who wants an insider’s perspective on controversial criminal cases, what really happens during trial, how race and politics shape jury trials, and the humanity (and heartbreak) of defending those the public often writes off. The stories told by Mark, Ashley, and Tenny Garagos humanize not just their famous clients, but the lawyers, too.

Whether you’re a true crime fan, a law student, or just want to understand what really goes on “in the well,” this episode delivers candor, gravity, and rare personal vulnerability.

Transcript

[Tenny Garagos]

Since he got out, bad things keep happening.

[Mark Geragos]

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[Ashley Merchant]

He is coming after my family.

[Mark Geragos]

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[Mark Geragos]

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[Mark Geragos]

Of course, if you enjoy overpaying, no judgments. But that's weird. Okay, one judgment.

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[Ashley Merchant]

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[Mark Geragos]

Welcome to in the well, today we have a special treat. You don't have to look at Matt Murphy. Instead you get to look and hear from Ashley Merchant. And I'm going to say we've got the daily double of criminal defense lawyers today and I'm not including myself. We've got a special guest coming up who I have can hardly wait for her to meet my co host today, Ashley Merchant. What's the name of your podcast, Ashley?

[Ashley Merchant]

It is mk, the True Crime Show.

[Mark Geragos]

Look at that.

[Ashley Merchant]

I know, I know. I am so excited to talk with your daughter. I mean, I love talking with you, but it is a special treat to get to talk to your daughter. I love fierce, badass criminal defense lawyers. There is nothing like them.

[Mark Geragos]

Well, I had told, I had told Penny that I wanted her on to meet you because I have and you know this, I became one of your biggest fans during the Fani Willis Nathan Wade hearings because it was just unbelievable to me. And we, without disclosing too much, we may have had a late night discussion about this last week at CrimeCon and we were talking about the genesis of that proceeding. And unfortunately I'm not going to reveal any of the confidences, but it was listening to your husband kind of batting you down was kind of funny.

[Ashley Merchant]

Yeah. You get to see the banter of how that actually came to fruition, which it's funny and I know we're going to talk about crime con in a little bit. It is funny when you get to see me and my husband John together because I'm go, go, go. And he's like, slow down, take a breath. You know, and it's a good mix. We like it. So I'm excited to see the dynamic between you and your d. Because I know you shared some of that with me about, you know, the Diddy trial and your infamous, you know, six pack

[Mark Geragos]

statement of white women.

[Ashley Merchant]

Yes, white women from the judge, which I was cracking up at. And I can just imagine her, you know, it was like, dad, dad. And you know, she just knows I can't control dad. There's no controlling dad.

[Mark Geragos]

You got it. You can channel it.

[Ashley Merchant]

So, yeah, yeah. So what do we got stuff to talk about? We got teasing.

[Mark Geragos]

What do you want to talk about? Because the one that I has caused a firestorm, I think this week has been the Carmelo Anthony trial.

[Ashley Merchant]

Oh, my God.

[Mark Geragos]

And for those who are not in the know, because one of the lawyers who works for me, when I said, are you up to speed on Carmelo Anthony? And her response was, literally, I didn't think he was still playing for the Knicks.

[Ashley Merchant]

Oh, my gosh.

[Mark Geragos]

And so anyway, if you want to talk about it and then I'll give

[Ashley Merchant]

you my opinion, I'm like, full on. I do want your opinion. I am so interested in this case. And I think one of the reasons I got so interested in it was because we can't see it. And so yesterday actually on our show, we had one of the reporters that was in the courtroom and it was really cool listening to him give. I asked all the questions that as defense lawyers, we want to know how was the judge, was the judge fair to both sides? And he said he seemed like he was. But what's happened is we've got Carmela Anthony, who stabbed, I don't want to say fellow classmate because it was from a rival school, but stabbed a rival classmate at a track meet and claimed it was self defense, but the jury said no, said no, not self defense. And it's really turned into this, you know, this. Some people have made it out to be this racial issue because Carmelo Anthony was black and Austin Metcalf, the victim, was white. And so, you know, what happened was Carmelo essentially walked into the tent. It was a rival tent, shouldn't have been there. It was raining and Austin said, get out. And they had some words. He may have laid hands on him. It sounds like it was pretty undisputed that he laid hands on him. But maybe a push, something light, nothing super violent. And Carmela Anthony pulled out a knife, which she shouldn't have had on school property, and stabbed Austin in the chest and killed him. Two 17 year olds, lives just tragically lost. But there's been a lot of uproar because cameras weren't allowed in the courtroom. And so people didn't really know what happened in the courtroom. And people were upset because they thought it was an all white jury where they did not have African Americans on the jury, but they did have some minority members. So there's just been a lot of back and forth. But you know, this just this case seems like one of those that as a defense lawyer, sometimes I'm curious your opinion, sometimes your best defense is to plea for mercy from the state, from the court, from the victim's family. You know, this is 17 year old kid. There could have been some significant mitigation for him. He messed up, you know, and instead of blaming the victim and claiming self defense, maybe he should have owned up to it, accepted responsibility, taken his punishment and he could probably have gotten a whole lot less last time in prison.

[Mark Geragos]

And did you mention this is Texas and in Texas you want to, you want to give download that to. Texas is unlike any place else Texas is.

[Ashley Merchant]

And you know, I heard that this county is one of the most conservative in Texas. So you've got Texas and then you've got conservative Texas on top of it. And I mean Texas has, I'm pretty sure led the United States and death penalty cases, if that tells anybody anything. It is very law and order. And this is one of the more law and order jurisdictions out of a law and order state.

[Tenny Garagos]

So.

[Mark Geragos]

And he got sentenced by the jury.

[Ashley Merchant]

Yeah, I was interested in that. Do they have that in California? Because they don't have that. Yeah.

[Mark Geragos]

And when I say it's Texas, that's kind of what I sometimes in California will not so jokingly tell jurors. Can you give my client a fair trial? And I, I cite Texas, I said, and I'm not, I don't mean a fair trial like in Texas where we'll give you a fair trial. Take you out back.

[Ashley Merchant]

Right, exactly, exactly. That's. I mean Texas is like the definition of swift justice. I saw a lot of people online were like, I can't believe he went right into sentencing. I'm like, it's Texas. What did you think they were going to bring the jury back?

[Mark Geragos]

I mean, and the jurors make the recommendation and you know, I can understand where that makes some sense from a crime and punishment theory. If the jury is supposed to be the voice of the community and the conscience of the community, you would want at least to get the input, especially when you have a range of punishment to see what they have to say. I mean that's on one side. On the other side, as you mentioned this has become a Rorschach test, this case. And it harkens back into my mind to the George Zimmerman case. And you'll remember that case that our friend Mark o' Meara tried. Mark, I think was mad at me because I was commenting on cnn, your jury selection, and he had, I believe they had only six jurors in that case.

[Ashley Merchant]

Yes, they did. Which was surprising.

[Mark Geragos]

Yeah, all white. And I may have made the comment that after jury selection I heard that it was all white jurors. I said the only way o' Mara loses this case is if he trips and hits his head. And so he didn't like that. Yeah, he did not appreciate that. So I had to buy him dinner. Two years running in National Lawyers.

[Ashley Merchant]

I bet he brings it up to you every time he sees you too. Yeah, that's crazy.

[Mark Geragos]

And then I, I have often made. And I, we didn't discuss this the other night, but my philosophy on, on criminal jury trials especially is since some really outlier of a case that the case is in criminal or over in jury selection. Yeah, I, I'm a. And I know this case has touched the hot button of the criminal justice system, in my opinion, which is race. And for those who argue with me, I would just say, look, I've been doing this for 43 years and before I was doing this, my dad was doing it for 50 years. And I have always seen, and you have to. I grew up in basically the state court. And the state court is kind of the bread and butter of the criminal justice system. And it is, for better or for worse, it is race. It's skewed racially.

[Ashley Merchant]

It totally is.

[Mark Geragos]

And the, the, the, at least historically, those who get prosecuted are predominantly black and brown, especially in California. You have, you up until recently did not have so called diversity on the bench. But get me, don't get me wrong, some of the worst judges ever been in front of have been judges of color. So. Yes, by the way, Ashley, you had a close and personal experience in another case, not your Fani Willis case, but another case in that county with a judge who seemingly lost his mind during the trial that was televised.

[Ashley Merchant]

Yeah, definitely. The ysl, infamous YSL trial definitely seemingly lost his mind. I mean, it was intense and that was kind of crazy. He's still on the bench. It's interesting. I think he's probably doing better things than jury trials, but. No, I totally agree. One of the things I always tell my clients when I'm picking a jury and I'm telling them about Picking a jury because nobody really understands it is. It's not politically correct. I always say jury selection is the farthest thing from politically correct. And I say that to no matter what, purple, red, white, black, whatever color my client is, whatever gender. I'm like, you got to take off your politically correct hat when you are in the room with me picking a jury, because I need to know if you are a certain demographic. We need a certain demographic on that jury depending on the case. I mean, especially if it's, if it's a sex crime, if it's a kid who's hurt. I mean, you have to factor in race. You just have to. And I hated that Carmelo Anthony's jury was, I mean, it wasn't all white. I'm not surprised though, because our country is very diverse. And so the fact that half the jury was minority, but maybe not, not African American doesn't surprise me because we're a very diverse, mixed, you know, community. But I wish they could have reshuffled that panel and it would have looked better. I think the optics would have been better. But I still don't think the result would have been any different.

[Mark Geragos]

You know, it's so funny that you say it's not politically correct. Yeah. Have often told confidence. Maybe it's the first time I've said it publicly on TV or YouTube.

[Ashley Merchant]

But yeah, I don't think I've ever said that publicly.

[Mark Geragos]

Yeah, I, I had a sub tenant who was much older than me, ex prosecutor. And as a prosecutor he was kind of like he had checked out. But then he became a defense lawyer and he had, and he was not a hard working defense lawyer and he was not prepared. And he was on what was called the 987 panel, which is the indigent panel.

[Tenny Garagos]

Oh yeah.

[Mark Geragos]

Court appoint. Yes. And at one point he had, and this is, I was a brand spanking new lawyer and he had, I think 21 not guilty or hungry. Oh my God, in a row. And I will also tell you, and I'm not going to name his name because I loved him dearly. He was also the biggest racist I've ever met in my life, bar none, the biggest racist I've ever, I've ever known in my adult life.

[Ashley Merchant]

But he was winning.

[Mark Geragos]

But he would win because at a certain level he understood just how visceral race is embedded in the criminal justice system. And I know that this case is a Rorschach test. Chris Cuomo was telling me the other night, he said 100% of certain people, if you ask them will tell you that the, that this case, you know where they fall on down in this case and where they what their opinion is 100% of the demographic and 100 in both sides. And it's absolutely true. I, I know before I talk to a person just based on who they are, where they're going to come down on this case, it's no, you do.

[Ashley Merchant]

You definitely do.

[Tenny Garagos]

Since he got out, bad things keep happening.

[Mark Geragos]

Cape Fear, a new series is now streaming on Apple tv. Why would I want to hurt you? Why? Starring Academy Award winner Javier Bardem. Why? And Academy Award nominee Amy Adams.

[Ashley Merchant]

He's coming after my family,

[Mark Geragos]

Kate Fear. Now streaming on Apple tv. Ryan Reynolds here from Mint Mobile with

[Commercial Announcer]

a message for everyone paying big wireless way too much. Please, for the love of everything good

[Mark Geragos]

in this world, stop with Mint.

[Commercial Announcer]

You can get premium wireless for just $15 a month.

[Mark Geragos]

Of course, if you enjoy overpaying, no judgments. But that's weird. Okay, one judgment.

[Commercial Announcer]

Anyway. Give it a [e-mail] Switch upfront payment

[Ashley Merchant]

of $45 for 3 month plan equivalent to $15 per month required intro rate first 3 months only, then full price plan options available, taxes and fees extra. See full [e-mail] so I want to ask you about another case, the Nick Reiner case. Because I'm like, this is just crazy to me. The reports coming out, I mean, we all knew, we all knew it was about Mr. Green, as we call it, you know, Alan Jackson. So just to catch everyone up, Alan Jackson was originally the private lawyer for Nick Reiner. And then he bailed and said, you know, there's something missing here. Well, yeah, Mr. Green, aka dollars. And now Nick Reiner's trying to get access to his trust, which apparently he was supposed to have access to when he was 30, but he didn't get it. Probably because he was kind of out there at the time. And now he's saying I deserve this so that I can use this money to pay for the defense against killing my parents. Like, what is going to happen here? You're in California. What the heck? Is he going to be allowed to do this?

[Mark Geragos]

I think he will. And let me tell you why. First of all, full disclosure. I consider AJ A good friend. Full disclosure.

[Ashley Merchant]

Great lawyer, too.

[Mark Geragos]

He's a great lawyer when he was a.

[Ashley Merchant]

Get him on the show with me one day.

[Mark Geragos]

Oh, I'd be happy to. When AJ Was a young prosecutor, he was the prosecutor on a case that they called. I mean, it's going back almost 20 years. Japanese OJ and I was defending the guy. The guy was acquitted in Japan. And then they. And then. But the warrant was still out for murder in America. But they tried him in Japan.

[Ashley Merchant]

Oh my gosh.

[Mark Geragos]

So he was taunting la. And aj to his everlasting credit, had had a warrant issued and active and had basically Interpol looking out for him. The client stepped foot in Guam, which he didn't realize was an American territory. He's brought into custody. I make a motion for to have to once in jeopardy and don't bring him here. Judge, he's already been acquitted in Japan. There's a code section in California back then that says once in jeopardy. The judge agrees with me. You know what AJ does? He says, okay, well we're not going to extradite him on murder. We're going to do a conspiracy to commit murder. Which is not a lesser included. Yes. I said, wow.

[Ashley Merchant]

Or like rico. That's like pulling out RICO or something.

[Mark Geragos]

Yeah, yeah. And got him extradited. But I sent one of my associates down to see him because I was out of the country and unfortunately he was dead by the morning after he was in LAPD custody. But I, I knew then that AJ had game and he certainly has showed he's a defense lawyer.

[Ashley Merchant]

Well, okay, you gotta tell us quick, what do you think's gonna happen?

[Mark Geragos]

So this is what's gonna happen, everybody. The common perception is how do you kill your parents and then collect the money? That's not the trust that he's talking about. There was a trust that was apparently set up for the children some 30 odd years ago when they were born. It was funded then. It was, I believe, a spendthrift trust or a children's trust. So that trust you're basically keep the money away from your no good trust fund babies until they're 30 he's trying to access. So I believe you'll get it, especially to pay attorney's fees. Remember what's going through a judge's mind too. The judge says, I mean they're thinking there's money out there. Why am I going to use public funds?

[Ashley Merchant]

Yes. Save the public defender 100%. Yes. Think about all the funds, you know, the experts, the psych experts, all that stuff.

[Tenny Garagos]

Heck yeah.

[Ashley Merchant]

The judge is thinking that save the taxpayer dollars. I can, I can get on with that. Well, I am super excited because you got me a present today. Next we have a guest that I've been dying to speak to and it is your daughter, Tenny Garrigos. She is joining us, so stay tuned.

[Tenny Garagos]

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[Ashley Merchant]

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[Ashley Merchant]

Well, welcome back everyone. We are very excited. I'm here with my co host today, Mark Garagos. But we are joined by a special guest, his daughter, Tenny Garagos. So thank you so much for joining

[Mark Geragos]

us, Tenny, AKA my grandbaby mama.

[Ashley Merchant]

I love it. Grandbaby mama. Yes. I heard you have adorable grandbabies. So I think that is awesome. I love that. I love that you get your dad to, you know, come to New York every chance you get. I'm sure at a. But grandbabies do that.

[Tenny Garagos]

I'm sure she's a great babysitter.

[Ashley Merchant]

That's awesome. Yeah. So I was reading. So he also, you know, we were at Crimecon. I guess it's been two weeks now. It's been a hard recovery, but two weeks. And we were talking about, you know, all things father, daughter, criminal defense. Cause my daughter, she's going into, she's going into her freshman year in college, but she wants to do criminal defense. I know, I know. And I was so I was peppering your dad with questions about how, you know, how did you get your daughter to be where she is today. Because he's very proud of you. As he should be. So I just want to hear about that. And, you know, why you chose to. I read it in the Vanity Fair, but I really just want to know why you chose to follow in his footsteps.

[Tenny Garagos]

Well, I think the answer should be obvious. I mean, I. I know I have big shoes to fill, but I. But I love our line of work. It is. It is, I think, the. One of the more difficult jobs out there. It is stressful.

[Ashley Merchant]

Yeah, it is definitely stressful.

[Tenny Garagos]

It's just. It's just that. However, it is the most gratifying job that I think that we could. That I could have chosen to do. And it's also kind of all that I know. So I. I endeavored to move to New York, which was where I went to college, and start my practice here. I've been so lucky to work here, to do some of the best cases since the moment that I passed the bar. I was sworn into the bar on the first day of the Martin Shkreli trial here. Who was hated. Yeah. The most hated man in America. But I. Listen, I think there are often times that I think all criminal defense lawyers can identify with where you're laying on the ground in your home and wondering how. How this happened, how this case went badly, or how anything went bad. I mean, you know, these. This job has kind of the lowest of lows and the highest of highs, but I still can't imagine doing anything else.

[Ashley Merchant]

I totally get it. I always try to explain it to people. Like, we're not supposed to lose. I mean, if the system. I mean, we're supposed to lose. If the system works, we lose. You know, like, that's. And that's weird for people to understand, but, like, that's.

[Tenny Garagos]

And no one gets that.

[Ashley Merchant]

No one realizes that. And so if we do. If we, like. But we also take it home. I always talk about we have all this vicarious trauma. Like, we get to know the person that everybody else thinks is the monster, and we see them for more than the worst thing they ever did. And it's hard because, you know, we carry all their traumas. So I think a lot of folks just don't get. Get that. Okay, so my kids. I'm gonna tell you something about my kids.

[Tenny Garagos]

I'm sorry. You just. You just kind of did that. You did it so quickly. But it's the most important part of our job, and it's what makes us really good lawyers and why we connect with ju. And why we connect with our clients and why we're hired. But, like, that's exactly right. We carry their trauma for them. And it's. And it's not just us, but our families as well. You know, it's. It is kind of the hardest thing in the whole world.

[Ashley Merchant]

No. And I wonder if, you know, with your family, you probably saw that, because I know for me, like, when my clients, they'll vomit all this trauma on me, you know, or all this. Whatever it is, the case, they got a bad offer, they got, you know, bad evidence, whatever it is, they feel sorry for what they did. So much stuff. And, you know, we just have to say, I got you. I got you. You know, let me deal with it. I got you. I'm handling it. Like, that's sort of our job. And so, you know, being in a house where your dad is doing that all the time, that had to have made an impression. So it doesn't surprise me at all that you've not only followed in his footsteps, but done it in such a magnificent way.

[Tenny Garagos]

So I think we all. I mean, the family as a whole kind of carried the weight of the practice. So I. Of the work, I should say, not of the practice. So I think we all feel it. We all continue. And now, I mean, my poor brother and mom are probably just like, we're never going to get out of the criminal defense world.

[Ashley Merchant]

Why would you want to? I mean, it's such a great.

[Mark Geragos]

Well, you realize I was telling Ashley that my father was sworn in as a deputy DA the same month I was conceived. That's crazy when you think about the idea that from zero, literally as a fetus to age 13, I was raised by a deputy D.A. then he went into private practice. And then Tenney saw me and my father and her uncle practicing all together. And then she lived through, you know, Michael Jackson. She lived through Scott Peterson. She lived through Winona Ryder. I remember doing Susan McDougall's case, and Susan actually lived at our house for a while.

[Tenny Garagos]

Wow.

[Mark Geragos]

Tenny was like six or seven years old, following her around like the Pied Piper.

[Tenny Garagos]

It was.

[Mark Geragos]

It was something else to watch.

[Ashley Merchant]

Well, I saw that. So I saw in the article about. I think you were in eighth grade maybe, when your dad tried Scott Peterson. And I was talking to John, my husband, about it, because our daughters, I think, were around that age when we tried this case down here, Ryan Duke. And it was this case where, you know, he killed this teacher. And it was just sensational. Down here. It was, you know, definitely not Scott Peterson, but it Was. It was a big case. It was heavily followed, and our kids really got to know Ryan. And, you know, I wondered. It appeared as though you probably knew. I mean, even whether you met him or not, but knew Scott and you talked about him at home. And so, you know, that probably carried over to you when that trial was going on and all the stuff that was happening with it. I'm sure it did.

[Tenny Garagos]

That case, I think more than any Michael, it was a weird time. I think we. You probably got the case. And when I was in seventh grade or sixth grade or something, I rem. I remember personally, like when the verdict came in, being in eighth grade, I remember where I was. But. Yeah, so, I mean, with that, my dad. You were living in another city, basically. He'd fly home on the weekends. Not only did we all feel. We felt so much compassion and just. That was the first time I think I didn't. I was not old enough for O.J. right. But like, I saw then Michael Jackson and how the media, you know, portrayed that case. And we saw Scott Peterson and we kind of saw it unfolding as it was happening. And it was kind of bigger than we could have ever expected. I don't know how you would say that if you would say the same, but for me, it was my first kind of. It was even bigger than McDougal. It was just everywhere. And it was. It was such a.

[Mark Geragos]

And interestingly, it was a bigger case for you. And, you know, for Jake, who is not a lawyer, My son, Chris Brown was a bigger case for Jake because he knew him. They knew each other. They. I mean, I would bring. Jake would come to the office, Chris would come to the office. They would know each other. And so it has this part of the. One of the great moments about a year ago for me personally was watching I tell this story to anybody who will listen. It represented Sean Diddy since for more than 12 or 14 years. And about a year ago, I was sitting in this Southern District watching Tenney give the opening statement for Sean's trial. And I was thinking, you know, two generations ago, my grandmother had escaped from a Turkish orphanage, somehow made it to Chicago, maybe had my dad. She didn't know if she was 14 or 16. And her great granddaughter is delivering a sex trafficking opening statement in the Southern District. It shows you how great America is and made a father very proud. As I used to tell Sean, I gave you my firstborn, so I give you my firstborn.

[Ashley Merchant]

Oh, my gosh. Okay. So when I read the Vanity Fair article, I was like, wow, she does a lot of sex crimes. I mean, there's no other way around it, you know, and crimes were, you know, the alleged victims. The complaining witness is a woman. And I was like, so do I. And I always wonder because I feel like we get brought into that partially because we are women, you know, And I mean, that makes sense.

[Tenny Garagos]

I get that.

[Ashley Merchant]

But it's just. I loved how you were saying that you don't attack the women. You know, you're. That's not your job. I mean, you're not. You treat them well. You're there to get to the truth. And I feel like that's how I always. I always do. But it's hard, you know, it's hard in our personal lives. And so how do you deal with that? I mean, we get attacked all the time for doing this.

[Tenny Garagos]

Yeah, I think, I think because sex. Because sex crimes are such a hot topic, or alleged sex crimes, people try to focus on. Those are the cases that I do, and I only do sex crimes. But like, yeah, you know, that's not the case. Like, we have all of these other cases that are also fascinating and take up a lot of my time, but they're not the buzzwords. So they're not covered. Maybe they're not in the news. Yeah, yeah. I think people, like, yeah, people want to attack the. The work that we do because they don't understand the import of it. I think maybe anybody who wants to attack that I'm doing, you know, a lot of these sex trafficking cases. Why don't you come to jail one time and spend one day with an incarcerate defendant the way that I do? And maybe you'll see why it's so important that I represent everybody and that I continue to represent people who are accused of sex offenses because everybody deserves a defense. There's oftentimes I just, it's. It is mind boggling to me how difficult it is for people to understand that I would defend somebody. I don't. I just. It's remarkable.

[Ashley Merchant]

I know. So I always. I get that question a lot too. You know, people are always like, how can you. You don't defend, you know, people accused of sex and rape and all that stuff and child molestation, all, you know, all that. You know, any of the gauntlet. People always ask that. And I always say, those are the worst cases. And they're like, oh, why? Because they're awful. And I said, no, because they're the most likely to be innocent. And people are just astounded by that. But I really feel like, you know, and I tell people that all the time. I said they're. They're the worst cases for two reasons. Reasons. Half of them, at least half are falsely accused. Like, you know, I would. I would say more than half, but they are 100% falsely accused. And I feel like nobody really uses reasonable doubt in sex crimes. I feel like it's a lower standard just because it is, you know, the law is stacked against us. And the other half, they're awful, and the facts are awful, and, you know, they probably were victimized, and it's just. There's just trauma all around. So it's. You know, they're the worst cases either way, but we get villainized for it. I was, you know, which is having

[Tenny Garagos]

this conversation with somebody. It's like the. The. The amount of clients that. That we are. That you deal with who are victimized themselves. And they're male, of course, and. And I say of course because if. If they were females, they would not be considered perpetrators, they would be considered victims. But the amount of male clients who have been victimized and have had to go through, like, the most unimaginable trauma and rapes that you can imagine, who have then become perpetrators later on, it's heartbreaking. And it's just. It's. You see it a lot, and then you're right. And then the other. It is kind of more like 50 who end up you being innocent. And the. The literature itself says 10. Right. That's an astoundingly high.

[Ashley Merchant]

No way. That. That is not even close.

[Tenny Garagos]

Yeah, but it's not even close. 10 itself is high, but it's not even close to kind of what we see in our practice. I'm sure you see it. I know my dad sees it. And so it's. Yeah, to me, it is. They are some of the hardest cases, but not for what everybody thinks, Right?

[Ashley Merchant]

Exactly.

[Mark Geragos]

It points out exactly what I always say. How many times have you been asked, how do you defend those people? How do you sleep at night? And I will tell them the. I sleep just fine, except when I believe they're innocent. And that's when I lose sleep.

[Ashley Merchant]

The worst ones.

[Mark Geragos]

Yeah. It eats away at your soul. I remember one kid in particular, Tenney was also quite young, who was a kid himself. 17, charged with the death penalty case. I knew he was not guilty. I knew he was innocent. It was in the infancy of cell phone technology and cell tower, and I had it. And he was exactly where he told me he was. And it was a horrifically bad, tainted photo id. And I remember telling a judge at one point who was just going to hold the client to answer. Did hold the client to answer, that I wished I had an Uzi to break him out of the courtroom. Now, I probably shouldn't have said that, but that's the level of frustration that you get when you know that your client is not. He's not guilty, and the system just chews them up.

[Ashley Merchant]

Now, that is the worst. I mean, that's what I always tell people whenever they ask me that as well. So we got one pressing question for you. You don't have to answer if it's uncomfortable. Luigi, are you gonna get involved in Luigi's case?

[Tenny Garagos]

I'm not. I have. We have incredible attorneys at our firm who are handling his case with doing so fantastically as. But I. I am here to help however I can, but I'm not going to comment at all.

[Ashley Merchant]

Such a diplomatic answer.

[Mark Geragos]

Yeah, she says that, but, you know, when she. I don't think she was going to try Harvey Weinstein either, but that's just. She ended up doing a magnificent cross, as she always does. Her crosses are really impressive because in the sense that they're not the traditional. What? Either the caric. Of a criminal defense lawyer. To your point, Ashley, I've watched you. You have a similar technique.

[Ashley Merchant]

Yes. Like a soft cross.

[Mark Geragos]

Yeah, yeah, it's a soft cross. Which actually, in a lot of ways, is infinitely more.

[Ashley Merchant]

Oh, it's deadly.

[Tenny Garagos]

Yeah.

[Ashley Merchant]

And it's fun to watch. Well, I wish that. I wish some of your trials. Yeah.

[Tenny Garagos]

No.

[Ashley Merchant]

That it's frustrating. Well, I wish some of your trials had been televised. Hopefully, we'll get one soon so we can watch it in real life, but thank you so much for being here, Tenny. It was such a pleasure, and I look forward to see you in person. Next up, Mark and I are going to share some stories. Yes. Thank you. Your dad and I are going to talk a little bit about Crimecon, which next time we go, you got to join us, Mark, I'm holding you to that. She needs to come to CrimeCon.

[Mark Geragos]

Absolutely. I'm bringing.

[Ashley Merchant]

It'll be so fun. All right, well, stay tuned, everyone.

[Tenny Garagos]

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[Ashley Merchant]

I'm Cyndi Lauper with fellow Kasentix advocate Chef Michelle Bernstein. We'll share our experiences with plaque psoriasis with psoriatic arthritis and Dr. Panico will

[Tenny Garagos]

talk about the possible connections.

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[Mark Geragos]

Foreign. Welcome back to in the well, Ashley and I just spent some quality time together in the Vegas. We were in Bellagio. We were also in Caesars at Crime Con and we had a blast. We did. Megan had a booth and we did podcast from there. Then there were some extracurricular activities.

[Ashley Merchant]

Never.

[Mark Geragos]

Yeah. Thank God we're not televised.

[Ashley Merchant]

Oh my gosh. I know.

[Mark Geragos]

Or recorded.

[Ashley Merchant]

There's something about Vegas. They I swear, I know they pump the air in those casinos, but you are sitting in a bar and it is 2am Vegas time and you're like, I have not seen this hour in a good 10, 15 years and all of a sudden it's another hour. But you know, it's a good time. I definitely had a great time hanging out with y'.

[Tenny Garagos]

All.

[Ashley Merchant]

I think one of my favorite things was you. I'm sitting at the booth and we're all chilling and, you know, we're talking to people and stuff and you walk by or you come in and everybody and they all run to you. It was hilarious. They all run you. They love you.

[Mark Geragos]

The one of the things that I was amazed by at CrimeCon is a and E had a documentary or something on Scott Peterson. So they asked me to get on stage with Chris Pixley and a wonderful ex LAPD detective, now turned private investigator. And and that place was packed. And the knowledge people have about a case from 22 or 23 years ago is astounding to me. People know I have said so often that in real time, I think I knew the facts of that case and the evidence in that case better than anybody. I am put to shame by some of these crime con people. They know stuff. If I ever knew it, I forgot it.

[Ashley Merchant]

It's why they should be investigators. I swear, a lot of them should be investigators. They give amazing tips. It's pretty amazing. Well, it was fun being at CrimeCon. I know you've gotta run, Mark, but thank you also to our guest, Tenny Garagos, Mark's fabulous daughter. And thank you everyone for tuning in to in the well, Matt Murphy will be back next week if he can be pried off of the beach. But everyone else have a great weekend. Everyone's talking about protein lately, but how do you actually get enough of it? Muscle Milk Muscle Milk has a great tasting new formula with no artificial sweeteners, flavors or added colors. It's high quality complete protein designed to support healthy muscles with fewer ingredients than the previous formula and 2642 grams of protein for when you're stuck in meetings or need a post workout recovery. Available in chocolate, vanilla, cream, cookies and cream, and strawberries and cream. Try the new great tasting Muscle Milk today. Available in stores nationwide. Muscle Milk Protein for All hi, I'm Angie Hicks, co founder of angie. When you use Angie for your home projects, you know all your jobs will be done well. Roof repair done well. Kitchen sink install done well. Deck upgrades done well. Electrical upgrades done well. Angie's been connecting homeowners with skilled pros for nearly 30 years. So we know know the difference between done and done well. Angie the one you trust to find the ones you trust. Find a pro for your [e-mail].