Kohberger’s Final Insult, Designer Shoes Blamed for Deadly Crash, Netflix’s “The Perfect Neighbor”

Summary

MK True Crime Episode Summary

Podcast: MK True Crime
Host: Ashleigh Merchant (B)
Contributors: Jona Spilborn (D), Dave Aronberg (C)
Date: October 24, 2025
Episode: "Kohberger’s Final Insult, Designer Shoes Blamed for Deadly Crash, Netflix’s 'The Perfect Neighbor'"

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Overview

This episode dives into several headline-grabbing true crime cases and legal developments. Key topics include Bryan Kohberger’s challenge to paying restitution to victims’ families, the tragic Baby Emanuel case and legal strategies behind the guilty plea, a bizarre DUI defense blaming designer shoes, and a deep-dive into Netflix’s documentary “The Perfect Neighbor.” The hosts deliver strong legal analysis, moral arguments, and social commentary throughout.

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1. Bryan Kohberger’s Restitution Dispute

Timestamps: 00:46 – 10:11

Main Points

• Kohberger, now serving four consecutive life sentences plus 10 years, is contesting the court-ordered restitution to victim’s families, arguing they’ve already received GoFundMe donations.
• Kohberger’s defense states he has no income or ability to pay, so any restitution would have to be paid by family, effectively making the order unenforceable.

Legal Debate

• Ashleigh (Host): Condemns the inefficiency and lack of common sense in the legal system that insists on restitution nobody actually expects will be paid.
  • “Should Brian Kohberger have to pay the state back? No brainer. How's he going to do that?” (01:52)
• Dave (C): Argues for maximum penalty, favoring the death penalty and suggesting the state should at least seize all commissary funds, however minor, to benefit victims’ families.
  • “This guy’s lucky to be alive… Perhaps [commissary funds] should go to the victims, too.” (03:24)
• Jona (D): Sees the defense argument as both offensive and strategic, arguing it’s “shoving it in the victim’s faces” to point to GoFundMe proceeds.
  • “I find at once interesting, yet offensive, is the fact that the defense counsel is making an argument that because the family got GoFundMe funds, they should not be entitled to any additional restitution…that is what I find offensive.” (04:43)

Victim's Family Speaks Out

• Clip from Olivia, victim’s sister: Describes the “experimental” wounds inflicted, implying prolonged suffering.
  • “Some of the wounds that were made to Kaylee were described as experimental.” (06:29)
  • “There was evidence that he continued the attack after she was no longer even fighting back.” (07:17)

Analysis & Reflection

• The panel unanimously agrees on Kohberger’s depravity.
• Dave: Suggests acts were fueled by misogyny or a desire for notoriety akin to serial killers like Ted Bundy/BTK.
  • “It’s something more than just killing; it’s something really demented in his psyche.” (07:53)
• Jona: Expresses frustration that society cannot “study” or understand the factors creating serial killers, asking, “how do we ever prevent that from happening in the future?” (09:08)

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2. Baby Emanuel Tragedy and the “Blind Plea”

Timestamps: 11:22 – 15:46

Main Points

• Jake Harrow, father of missing baby Emanuel, pled guilty to second-degree murder via a blind plea (no sentence negotiated in advance). The body remains unfound; the mother, Rebecca, maintains her not-guilty plea.
• The tactic likely prevents authorities from compelling him to reveal the body’s location (“plead to the sheet”), thus denying closure for the family.

Legal Insight

• Jona (D): “He can plead to the sheet and never have to open his mouth about where that child is, which is also disgusting.” (12:34)
• Dave (C): Notes California death penalty is in moratorium, so plea removes risk; calls the case a failure of the justice system due to Harrow’s prior conviction for violence against an infant.
  • “The worst part of this case...he’s done it before...brutally beat up another infant.” (13:32)

Ethical Questions & Impact

• Discuss the repercussions for Rebecca, the mother, and the strategic aspect: “First in, first to win,” meaning the first to plead sometimes secures a better deal.
• Reflection on prior system failures allowing repeat abusers to hurt children again.

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3. The Melody Buzzard Case and Child Protection Failures

Timestamps: 15:46 – 21:47

Main Points

• Melody Buzzard, a young girl, had been missing from school for a year before being reported missing; her mentally unwell mother remains uncooperative and is possibly on the run.
• There is documented history of instability: living in squalor, previous state intervention, and custody returned despite red flags.

Commentary & Critique

• Dave (C): Cites “carrot and stick” legal approaches: pressure, plea deals, leveraging knowledge of the child’s whereabouts.
• Jona (D): Outraged by systemic failures: “How does a child just not show up for a year before anybody says anything?” (18:51)
• The segment closed with a broader indictment of Child Protective Services and schools’ mandatory reporting responsibilities.

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4. High Heels Blamed in Deadly Drunk Driving Case (Christina Chambers)

Timestamps: 23:56 – 29:09

Main Points

• Christina Chambers, a wealthy Texas socialite, faces trial for killing a man with her Porsche 911 while highly intoxicated (BAC of .301) and possessing cocaine. Her defense? Blaming her Louboutin high heels for getting stuck in the pedal.
• A wrongful death suit is also pending. Rumors abound she may be pregnant, which becomes fodder for trial strategy.

Legal and Social Commentary

• Jona (D): Dramatically presents a Louboutin heel on air for demonstration, humorous but serious in debunking the defense:
  • “Do not boycott Louboutin, whatever you do. Thank you.” (27:25)
• Ashleigh (B): Skeptical: "If I'm on the jury...I'm not believing that she really even remembers at a 0.3.” (27:25)
• Dave (C): Sarcastically pitches a slogan: “Not only fashionable, they’ll serve as a get out of jail free card if you’re ever involved in a DUI homicide.” (28:10)

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5. Netflix’s “The Perfect Neighbor” and the Stand Your Ground Debate

Timestamps: 29:09 – 36:14

Case Overview

• The documentary retells the 2023 killing of AJ Owens, a Black mother, by white neighbor Susan Lorenz, who shot Owens through a locked door after a dispute involving neighborhood children.
• Stand Your Ground law becomes central: Lorenz claimed fear for her safety after years of neighborhood tension.

Documentary Excerpt & Perspectives

• Panel reviews a 911 call and snippets illustrating both Lorenz’s paranoia and the neighborhood's frustrations.

Legal Analysis

• Dave (C): Calls Lorenz “a Karen” and says this was a “clear loser” on Stand Your Ground; the debate was only over charge severity—manslaughter vs. murder.
• Jona (D): Suggests a legitimate Stand Your Ground defense may have worked without the history of animosity, but the judge decided she acted from anger, not genuine fear.

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6. Listener Mailbag & Closing Arguments

Timestamps: 37:47 – 48:52

Listener Q&A

• Notable question about whether Bryan Kohberger could have gotten away without the left-behind knife sheath.
• Ashleigh points to video and forensic evidence as ultimately decisive, even if the sheath hadn’t been found.

Closing Arguments

• Jona (D): Humorous reflection on “toughness” of older generations’ Halloween rituals; laments overprotectiveness and nostalgia for risk-taking childhoods.
  • “If you want your kids to grow up and not be whiny little wimps, try trading your modern Day Trunk or treat bullshit for a good old fashioned Halloween, why don't ya?” (41:59)
• Dave (C): Rants about political transparency and the Jeffrey Epstein files; criticizes House Speaker Johnson for stalling a key disclosure vote.
  • “Try as you may to distract and delay. This controversy isn't going away until the files are released. Resistance is futile.” (45:07)
• Ashleigh (B): Critique of America’s cash bond system, its impacts on marginalized and innocent defendants, and calls for reform.
  • “So people plea to things they didn't do because they don't get bond and we've got to fix it. It's a bad system. We need to get rid of cash bond.” (48:01)

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Notable Quotes

• “This is why our legal system is how it is. It's inefficient, lacks common sense.” – Ashleigh Merchant (01:37)
• “Perhaps [commissary funds] should go to the victims, too. So I just don't believe he should get any benefit. He is a quadruple murderer.” – Dave Aronberg (03:24)
• “On the other hand, I feel like they're shoving it in the victim's faces. But hey, look, people, they got a ton of money from this crime and they. And that, that is what I find offensive.” – Jona Spilborn (04:43)
• “It’s something more than just killing; it’s something really demented in his psyche.” – Dave Aronberg (07:53)
• “How does a child just not show up for a year before anybody says anything?” – Jona Spilborn (18:51)
• “Do not boycott Louboutin, whatever you do. Thank you.” – Jona Spilborn (27:25)
• “Not only fashionable, they’ll serve as a get out of jail free card if you’re ever involved in a DUI homicide.” – Dave Aronberg (28:10)
• “If you want your kids to grow up and not be whiny little wimps, try trading your modern Day Trunk or treat bullshit for a good old fashioned Halloween, why don't ya?” – Jona Spilborn (41:59)
• “People plea to things they didn't do because they don't get bond and we've got to fix it. …We need to get rid of cash bond.” – Ashleigh Merchant (48:01)

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Overall Tone

The tone is candid, sharp, and sometimes darkly humorous, mixing legal insight, empathy for victims, and cultural commentary. The contributors do not shy away from strong opinions and frequently reference personal and professional experience in family law, prosecution, and defense.

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Listen Further

• For more on forensic breakthroughs in the Kohberger case, check out the bonus episode with Phil Holloway and the head of the forensic lab (as referenced around 37:47).

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Email story suggestions or questions: [e-mail]

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Transcript

[A]

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[B]

Welcome to MK True Crime. I'm Ashleigh Merchant. I'm a criminal defense attorney out of Atlanta, Georgia. And here's what's on the docket today. Bryan Kohberger is fighting paying compensation to the families of the students he viciously murdered. We'll bring you the latest. And the father of still missing baby Emanuel, hero has pled guilty to second degree murder in California. We'll unpack why he did this. A Texas woman is blaming her designer shoes in the murder of an innocent bystander. We'll bring you the wild story of Christina Chambers and more. Today I'm joined by fellow MK True Crime contributors Jona Spilborn, criminal defense attorney and founding attorney at John Spilbore Law. And also Dave Ehrenberg, the Florida lawman, Florida former state attorney for Palm beach county and managing partner of Dave Aronberg Law. We start with Brian Kohberger. So Bryan Kohberger is convicted killer. He is serving four life sentences and he doesn't essentially want to pay anymore to the families. When he took the plea, part of the plea was that he was going to be sentenced and have restitution. And restitution is something that you know later on you get sentenced to and you have to pay back to the families. In a new court filing, his defense team argued that he should not have to pay the extra money to the families because they got money from GoFundMe. The defense is arguing that there's no way to pay because he's in prison serving four consecutive life sentences plus 10 years. And honestly, they're not wrong. Under the terms of the plea deal, they can seek restitution. How it works is there's a crime victims Compensation fund, and it covers things like funerals, things, you know, travel expenses, stuff like that. But then the state asks to be reimbursed. They ask the accused, once they're convicted, to reimburse the fund. So the defense, it's not wrong. Mr. Kohberger is serving four life sentences plus 10 years. This is an example, in my opinion, of when common sense is ignored and outrage wins. I know we don't like Bryan Kohberger, and nobody's saying that, but this is why our legal system is how it is. It's inefficient, lacks common sense. Should the families get this money? Of course, I don't think anybody would disagree with that. But should Brian Kohberger have to pay the state back? No brainer. How's he going to do that? So I want to talk with my fellow contributors about this. You know, the prosecutors, y', all, they're paid by tax dollars. The court is paid by tax dollars. The defense is paid by tax dollars. Everybody knows this is a frivolous motion. Everybody knows that Brian Kohberger can't pay this money back. So I'm certain that one of you, if not both, probably disagree with me on this. But, Dave, David, tell me you heard about this. You know how prosecutors are paid. You know how this works. Tell me what you think.

[C]

He should have gotten the death penalty. And that's. This is another reason why. That's what I think. Bryan Kohberger is a lucky guy because prosecutors decided to walk away from this case and settle it against the objections of some of the families. And now he's rubbing salt in the wounds by saying, no, I don't want to pay you the restitution that. That you think you're owed because you made money off the Internet. Well, you know what? I think the families have a right to continue to pursue it and to essentially take away his commissary funds. And maybe that's what this is about, about the fact that Brian Kohberger, who didn't seem to have such a bad living arrangement in his maximum security prison, will get a commissary fund and be able to buy items that he wants to from the commissary. Well, perhaps that should go to the victims, too. So I just don't believe he should get any benefit. He is a quadruple murderer. He's a liar, and he's someone who didn't show any remorse at the trial, at least not enough for me and for the victim's families. So I say, go ahead, victims, families, go ahead. Prosecutors get whatever you can from this guy. This guy's lucky to be alive, but.

[B]

Practically speaking, where's that money gonna come from? You know, Brian Coburger doesn't have any money. He doesn't? Yeah. He doesn't have any ability to make any money, so it's gonna come from his family. If they put commissary dollars on Jona, what do you think? Tell me I'm wrong.

[D]

No, I can't tell you that. You're wrong. And I agree with both of you. Right. We think this guy is a creep and he should be pushing up daisies. You're not going to make any money when you're dead. He's only going to make very little behind bars. I don't know, what do they pay, like 2 cents an hour to make license plates or whatever he's going to pay. You can't force the family to pay his restitution to the victims because it's his restitution and he's never going to earn the money. What I find at once interesting, yet offensive, is the fact that the defense counsel is making an argument that because the family got go fund me funds, they should not be entitled to any additional restitution. And on the one hand, I kind of don't blame them for making that argument. On the other hand, I feel like they're shoving it in the victim's faces. But hey, look, people, they got a ton of money from this crime and they. And that, that is what I find offensive. But did they have to make that argument? You guys probably right.

[B]

It definitely is offensive. I mean, they're. They're trying to say that they're trying to profit off of this, you know, and there were expenses, there's funeral expenses. I mean, that's what this, this crime victims fund is for. We've got another interesting. I mean, I hate to even say interesting, because anything about Brian Coburger and what he did is not really interesting, but one of the girl's sisters, Kaylee's sister, she's gone on TikTok. She posted a video about some. Some of the state's exhibits. Her name is Olivia. She posted about these exhibits and about how some of the wounds that her sister had suffered from didn't appear to be fatal. And she said they appeared to be what investigators told her, what's called experimental. I think we've got SOT1, which is the sister actually talking about these wounds.

[E]

Some descriptions of autopsy photos that the state had planned to introduce as exhibits. I just wanted to offer a little bit of, you know, my perspective that maybe will help lessen some of the speculation. There's really no easy way to say this. The gag order protected an absolute fucking monster. It's disgusting. But some of the wounds that were made to Kaylee were described as experimental. So a wound that might typically.

[C]

In.

[E]

Its presentation look defensive might not have necessarily been defensive because at some point he was inflicting wounds that.

[B]

I mean.

[E]

Any logical person would know wouldn't be fatal. There was evidence that he continued the attack after she was no longer even. Even fighting back.

[B]

Yeah. So, guys, this just solidifies what I think we already know, that Brian Coburger is a very, very sick, disturbed individual. Having done death penalty defense. This evidence to me was likely going to be used as aggravation to try to get that death sentence. And that's why they had this ready. So, Dave, let's start with you. I know you already said you think he should have gotten the death penalty. Does this tell you something? Does this tell us something more than we already knew, which is that he's a monster?

[C]

You know, it could go to motive. People wonder why he did it. There was no financial motive here. He didn't steal anything. But it could be his misogyny. He's had misogyny in the past. It could be some sort of sexual pleasure he gets out of it. But it's something more than just killing. It's something really demented in his psyche. And here's a guy who dedicated his life to studying serial killers and studying crime. And that's what he wanted to be. He wanted to be a BTK killer, a Ted Bundy. Problem is, in today's day and age, your DNA will catch up with you. Your cell phone data will catch up with you. It's not the same as it was in the 70s. So this guy is a sick dude. I was going to curse there. But he deserves everything he gets, which. Yeah, and he hits. That's John, his job. Exactly. That's why I say a guy who did something like this, that would have been an aggravator. And that aggravator, in my mind, would have gotten him the death penalty and he should have received capital punishment.

[B]

Yeah, I mean, I can't help but think this would have given. Would have landed him on death row. John, don't you wish that we could actually study him? I mean, I know he was studying this, but actually study and try to figure out and find some good in these awful crimes. You know, have society learn how to prevent them. And what drove him to this, I mean, this experimental nature of this is just, it's just sick.

[D]

That's just sick, right? He's a sick prick. And I don't know if this guy is organically miswired or if this is a product of some sort of nurture. And we do want to know that, you guys, how do we avoid, like, we, we try to prevent disease, right? But when we have these people, the Ted Bundys, the Bryan Coburgers, how do we ever prevent that from happening in the future? Because clearly, you know, I'm okay with the death penalty, I'm totally fine with the death penalty, but I don't know if it does a whole lot to prevent other people from committing these types of heinous crimes. Right? I don't, I don't know how many people, how many, how do we gather that data? So, so something is definitely wrong with this guy in between his ears. And it's a shame because it seems like he had a normal upbringing, but how can you be that messed up and have a normal anything?

[B]

Yeah, it does seem like he has a normal upbringing. I mean, I wonder if they're gonna make a show monster about this and we'll get some more information about why maybe he was driven to do this, but yeah, definitely wanna study him.

[F]

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[B]

I want to talk about another case we've been following about baby Emanuel. We've talked about this a lot of times. On this show. But Jake Harlow, Jake Harrow, I'm sorry, pled guilty and that's her father. We've been following this story essentially. Let's catch up on what's happening. Baby Emanuel was reported missing on October 14 by his parents, Jake and Rebecca. Both parents were ultimately arrested and they still have not found baby Emanuel, but they believe that baby Emanuel is dead. Have charged both of them with the death while there's no information about the whereabouts. Jake father changed his plea last week and he's pled guilty to second degree murder. Mother Rebecca is still pleading not guilty. So I want to talk a little bit more about this case and then I want to dive into what happened here. So Jake was in court for a settlement conference. That's where both sides exchange information, try to negotiate a plea deal. He pled guilty without a negotiated sentence. And what I call, and I don't know what y' all call this, but we call it a blind plea or a non negotiated plea. So what is that? That is when you plea blind, when you walk in and the judge is going to give you a sentence and you don't have an agreed upon sentence. And I want to open it up to you all to talk about the reasons why Jake might have actually chosen this path. Jonna, let's start with you. I have my guesses, but what's your take?

[D]

So here we call it a plea to the sheet, right? So if you plead to the sheet, nobody can tell you what you're going to do, not do, etc. And he probably did this. The main reason I think the baby is still missing. He can plead to the sheet and never have to open his mouth about where that child is, which is also disgusting. But if that's what he's going to do, I guarantee you that the judge will throw the book at him because he's not giving anybody closure. And this also gives the mom an opportunity for some plausible deniability. Maybe she's going to say it was all him, it was all him, and I couldn't say anything. She might not get the book thrown at her and she might not have to plea to a murder. So it's an interesting thing here, but that's why he did it, so he doesn't have to open his mouth.

[B]

Dave, you agree with John or you think it's something else?

[C]

No, we call it plea up to the court. Not as sexy as plea to the sheets.

[B]

I know plea to the sheets is kind of.

[C]

That's better phrase. Leave it to Johnna. Here I am. Plea to the court, it's so dull. But you do that because you don't anticipate you're going to get any real deal from prosecutors and you just want to be done with this and think you're going to get a better sentence from the judge. You know, the death penalty is still there in California. There's been a moratorium on it. The governor's imposed a moratorium and so there's still that possibility. So he took that off the table by pleading to second degree murder. And now he is ineligible for the death penalty. He will get life in prison. Most likely. The worst part of this case is not just this horrific death of this poor child, but the fact that he's done it before. He brutally beat up another infant. Yeah. Leaving that poor infant with permanent damage. And yet back then apparently the judge sort of gave him a slap on the wrist. And I think this whole thing is an embarrassment for the criminal justice system. What happened that this guy was still out there to do it again. So I think it does put some pressure on the wife actually, because remember the wife, her whole thing was that she was the victim. She has a black eye because he beat her and she had this whole story which is nonsense. So now the. I think they could turn the screws on the wife here actually. So that's the only part I disagree with, John. There's an old saying, first in, first to win. The first criminal defense lawyer in the prosecutor's door in the judge's courtroom is going to win with a better deal. Meanwhile, this woman's out there hanging out to dry. She's a liar. She clearly was involved in this. The question is what's going to happen during next.

[B]

Right. And I wondered that, you know, I think that that's got something to do with it. Is Jake trying to help her because he's a bad guy? We all agree on that. He's a bad guy. Is he trying to help his wife? I mean if he was a better person, had been a better parent, that might be more plausible. But I'm not so sure about that. But I agree. I mean the prior abuse history, that was an aggravator. He could have definitely been eligible for the death penalty. And I think his lawyers probably told him plea. Now when you're charged with second degree while jeopardy attaches and then they don't know the severe details cuz they haven't found this poor child. And you know, he could have gotten a much larger sentence. He could have gotten life without parole even if he didn't get the death penalty. And so at this point, yeah, I mean, now he's. He's facing a mandatory 25 year sentence. But even with that, in California, you're parole eligible after 21 years. So, you know, that's some hope. I was thinking, you know, the impact on Rebecca's case, maybe he was trying to help his wife by taking responsibility. I think it's unlikely given his history, but it's possible. But she can, of course, she can still plea. She can negotiate or she could fight these charges. So I guess we'll be following the story and keeping everyone updated. I want to talk now about Melody Buzzard. Melody is a child. It's a sad story out of California. She went missing. School officials reported her missing after. And this is what is just the most appalling to me. She had not participated in school for a year, and then they finally figured out she was missing. So I think, you know, there's something wrong with the system here. As we've all already known. Melody, her name is Ashley Buzzard. Ashley's mom is the grandmother, Melody's grandmother. Her name's Lori Miranda. So Grandma Lori told the authorities that her daughter suffers from significant mental illness and that those diseases, those mental illness took a really drastic dive after Melody's father was killed in a car crash when Melody was only six years old. The mom has been uncooperative with authorities since they've been looking for her. But she was spotted. They believe. Of course, we know how that goes. They believe she was spotted in Nebraska with her daughter. So there is hope that her daughter is still alive. But unfortunately, mom is not helping. It's just awful, Dave. Jonathan, this is just awful. This poor little girl. Let me start with you, Dave. You're a former prosecutor. What can the authorities do to force this mother to help them find her daughter?

[C]

Well, this looks terrible. The whole situation looks like there's severe mental illness there. They could charge with crimes and put pressure on her and threaten to charge her with greater crimes. They could try to cut a deal with her. They could. They could try to get more evidence around her which would implicate her in the crime and just keep the investigation going. There's public pressure, but in the end, if she doesn't want to tell investigators, she won't tell investigators. Now, one thing that you could do. I had a case once where we cut a plea deal with a murderer because he knew where the body was. And the family said, please, we just want to know where our loved one is and if he will tell us we'll agree to a smaller sentence, not 40 years instead of life. And so we did it. We actually made the deal with the devil to get that information. So that's the one card she has. And perhaps that is one approach here, but it's a carrot and stick approach. And law enforcement is very good at this. They're used to this kind of situation. Even with people with mental illness.

[B]

Yeah, yeah. And I think the mental illness is just so key here. I know the grandmother said that there was a history where Melody had actually been previously taken away from her mother because the authorities found that they were living in squalor, only had rotten food, and was actually taken away. So, you know, I just wonder how much the authorities were actually monitoring this poor child. And also, you know, if the grandmother knows what's going on, you know, John, is there any liability here for the grandma? I mean, she knows what's going on. You know, can. Can she be forced to help and get through to her daughter if her daughter knows where this child is?

[D]

You know, and that's a problem because when you are dealing with an adult with mental illness, it's really hard. I mean, you might know what's going on, but taking the leap from knowing what's going on and not doing anything about it, does that create a cause for endangering the welfare of a minor, especially if authorities were already involved? I'm kind of more mad right now at the school. How does a child just not show up for a year before anybody says anything? And in a case like this, even when you're dealing with a parent that has mental illness. And by the way, like around here, we deal. I'm in family court practically every day. They don't hesitate to pluck children from their biological parents and put them in the foster's and don't hesitate. And these cases can take a long time. What got missed here? That's the big question. And how does somebody. How does a child just disappear? There's nobody. There's no friend, there's no boyfriend, there's no drug dealer. There's nobody who knows anything.

[B]

Right?

[D]

I mean, come on.

[B]

I know. I mean, isn't it. Does the child play sports? You know, do they have neighbors like that? It just seems insane to me. The grandmother. Where's. Has the grandmother seen this poor child in a year? I mean, it's interesting that you're in family court because immediately. And I don't go to family court, I avoid it like the plague because it's awful. It's just. It's depressing, but I just can't help but think, how did this get missed? You know, how did the. And I'm not sure what they call it in California. Here, we call it Child Protective Services. How did they miss this? How were they not monitoring that this child is not in school? You know, they had an open case. They'd gone out before. I mean, what do you think, John? Is anybody. I mean, anybody in the system could be held liable, or do we just need to have some reform? And this is just such a tragedy.

[D]

You know, I don't know if there might be some liability on the part of the school. And we call it here, too, cps, Child Protective Services, the fact that family court was involved, and then, I don't know, close the case. Schools are mandatory reporters. If a child doesn't show up to school, the school's going to call the parent and say, hey, where are you? And then. And then what happens if they can't get a hold of the parent, what happens next? Like, you know, I have this. This is sort of. It's a little bit off topic, but not really. But I have a client who's a teacher for special ed, and one time one of her children got in some sort of trouble, so she had to contact the parent to say, hey, I'm going to suspend little Billy. And the parent said, okay, well, can you not suspend little Billy until Wednesday, because I don't want him home on my day off. The mother didn't want to be home with Billy to help little Billy reform whatever it was he did. I mean, and so that's just a horrible thing. And what are you supposed. So what's the school supposed to do in that kind of situation? Okay, we'll babysit him instead of you.

[B]

So it's.

[D]

It's just really tough.

[B]

It is. Now that's. That's tough. And that goes back to the baby, Emanuel. You know, how do these parents still have kids? There's no law that says you have to be a good parent. Just get in trouble if you're not.

[D]

No test, right?

[B]

Yeah, no test. No test. Well, coming up after the break, we've got a couple other cases to talk about. We've got a case of a woman who blames her expensive high heels for murder. And we unpack the new documentary, the Perfect Neighbor. If you have any questions or comments for us, you can email us. The email address is mktruecrimelmaycare media.com we would love to hear from you.

[F]

Did you know that up until the 1990s, all chips and fries were cooked in beef tallow.

[D]

Who knew?

[F]

Like, when you were scarfing down that fast food in the 80s that had been cooked in beef tallow, not in seed oils. But then big food companies made the switch to cheap, highly processed seed oils. And now they make up to 20% of the average American daily calories. This is why I'm so excited to tell you about Masa chips. I love Masa. It's a chip that's doing things differently. Maza chips are made with just three ingredients. Organic corn, sea salt, and 100% grass fed beef tallow. That's it. No seed oils, no junk. They're delicious. So, like, they're thicker, they're crunchier, they've got some good salt on there. And unlike the regular chips, you don't have to eat like 30 of them to feel sated. You can have like four masa chips and you do feel sated. You're good. They're genuinely tastier than the other chips. They don't break in your guacamole or salsa. Plus they really leave you feeling light, satisfied, and energized. No crash, no bloat. Try them for yourself. You're going to taste the difference. Personally, my favorite flavor of the masa, I like the white corn. I've been into that. That's been good. And the original is delicious too. My son really loves the lime and my other two kids eat all of them. So check them out for yourself. You can get the variety pack and so you can try them all out. Are you ready to give masa a try? Go to masachips.comm a s a chips.com mk and do use that code mk when you check out, you get 25% off your first order. That's masachips.com mk code mk for 25% off your first order. If you don't feel like ordering online, Masa is now available nationwide at your local Sprouts supermarket.

[B]

All right, we have to discuss Netflix. The purpose? Perfect neighbor. But first, an innocent man was getting late night donuts with a date when he was hit by Christina Chambers. Now she's blaming her high heels for the deadly crash. So who is Christina Chambers? She is a wealthy housewife who ran down and killed a man as he was leaving the voodoo donut shop in Texas. But is she blaming her louboutin heels? Chambers? And you may not know what that is, but John is going to help you in just a minute. Chambers is accused of plowing into and killing 33 year old Joseph McMullen. In the April 2023 crash while she was high and drunk. Prosecutors alleged that Chambers had been bar hopping with friends and was four times over the legal limit. We could talk about that, too. 3. And she had baggies of cocaine in her car and her purse. Now, prosecutors wanted to bring that in. The defense wants to bring that out. She claims, though, that her expensive heels got stuck in the gas pedal of her porsche. Now, her BAC was 301, which, you know, we were talking about that. I'm pretty sure 0.4 is comatose and near death and almost dead. So that's a pretty high bac. The criminal trial is going on right now. There's also a civil wrongful death lawsuit that's pending against both chambers and her now ex husband, who filed for divorce days after she was released on bond. You know, I want to start with you, Joanna, because you got some heels. And I can't help but think about my youngest daughter. My 15 year old is learning how to drive right now, and we actually have a pair of driving shoes in the car for her because kids wear these Uggs all the time now, and they're like slippers, and they can go up under the, you know, the gas pedal or the brake pedal. And so we have this conversation all the time. Don't drive in bad shoes. So tell me about these shoes.

[D]

All right, let me tell you about the shoes. I am going to defend the shoes all day long. This just happens to involve a pair of Louboutins. I brought a prop so you can see for yourself. Now, listen, I cannot defend Chambers so much because while the shoes may have caused a problem, being three sheets to the wind, almost four times over the legal limit, and high on cocaine, driving a Porsche 911 probably is the real reason why this man is dead. But let me tell you what happens with these shoes. I happen to have a pair of Louboutins. What makes them Louboutins? The signature red sole. Now, they're great. Exhibit A. Exhibit A, ladies and gentlemen of the jury. You see this heel right here? Do you see it? This heel? This heel isn't a kitten heel. This heel isn't a little 2 inch heel. This heel is a full 5 inches.

[B]

5.

[D]

This heel is very pointy. I once had a little mishap in my. One of my previous cars were wearing similar heels. The heel went straight through the floorboard. Not on the. Not on the gas pedal side, on the brake side. And so my foot was stuck in my car where I could not Move it. Because the heel was under the rug. Now I ask you, ladies and gentlemen of the jury, while that is a definite shoe pa, it is probably not the likely cause of the actual accident. Do not boycott Louboutin, whatever you do. Thank you.

[B]

They're lovely shoes. I mean, a defense attorney better have a hole in that floorboard of that car with that defense. If I'm on the jury. And I mean, that could be good. That could be a good defense if he, you know, says, hey, look at this picture Hurley Vuitton actually did go through. Because I'm not going to lie, I'm not believing that she really even remembers at a point three. Yeah, but I want to talk about one more fun fact before we discuss this. Chambers might be pregnant. Prosecutors filed a motion to exclude the defense from referencing that she might be pregnant during the trial. But if she's convicted, then the defense can bring up her pregnancy. Now, to me, as a mother, if I was the judge and I learned someone had become pregnant while they were facing jail time and accused of the crime, I don't think that would help me. What do you think, Dave?

[C]

Well, I think it would gain sympathy in front of the jury. But since the judge would make the decision on the penalty, I agree with you. So it doesn't help her. Also, it just. The whole thing just looks so bad. 0.30 cocaine, a fancy Porsche 911, an innocent person dying, and then you blame it on your fancy shoes. I will concede those are good looking shoes. I'm sure they're way more expensive than my shoes made by Ortho feet. That's what happens when you have flat feet. Little plug for Ortho feet. Bought them on Amazon. But here's the thing. I could just see the new marketing slogan for these. These Louis Vuitton shoes. Not only fashionable, they'll serve as a get out of jail free card if you're ever involved in a DUI homicide. So, yes, I guess that's their thing. As long as you wear those shoes, that defense is available for you. Just ignore the whole cocaine in the baggie and the.30. So. Yeah, right. I don't buy it for a minute.

[B]

I'm just imagining the conversation with her defense lawyer about this defense. And it reminds me of a case I had. And this was probably. Oh, my gosh. I was a baby lawyer at the Public defender at probably 20 years ago now and my client had shot someone and he wanted me to argue that his sweater actually got caught and pulled the trigger. And it was a shotgun. So definitely not possible. But when you have these conversations with your client and that's what they remember happening, sometimes that's what you got to go with. But I'm just saying if he's a good defense lawyer, let's hope with this defense he's got a picture of that shoe going through the floorboard. Yeah, yeah. All right, well, let's talk about the new Netflix documentary the Perfect Neighbor. Talk a little bit about the case and then I know Johnna has been watching it and caught up on it, but. So this is a new documentary. Susan Lorenz fatally shot her neighbor. Her Neighbor is named AJ Owens, a mom of four, 35 year old mom of four, black female, Susan is a white female in her 50s, shot her through her door back in 2023 in Ocala, Florida. Lorenz had been calling 911 for a couple years complaining about the neighborhood kids who guess what they were doing playing in a field nearby. Owen's kids were part of that, that she had repeatedly called the police. There was just a history of calling 911, harassing them, saying these kids shouldn't be playing here. You know, all this type of stuff. The story is chronicled in the Netflix documentary the Perfect Neighbor. And this is a quintessential stand your ground argument, but a loser. So let's talk about what happened. Lawrence. White woman in her 50s. She had a long standing feud with this mother, her 35 year old neighbor. She was mad because God forbid those kids were at it again, they were playing in that field that night. She decided to throw a roller skate at Owen's 10 year old son as he played in the field. Owen's son was injured. And so Owens did what I think most reasonable parents would do, went over and knocked on Lorenz's door, demanded to speak with her about what happened, had her son with her. Lorenz then filed a single shot through the door and killed owens while her 10 year old son was standing there. Lauren said that she felt threatened by the unarmed Owens. So this happened in Florida where Dave is. And they have the stand your ground law that allows someone to use deadly force if they reasonably believe that they have been threatened. So before we discuss this, let's take a look at Sat 2, which is a clip from this new documentary. 91 1. What is the address of the emergency? Several kids out there right now and screaming and yelling.

[C]

Now I'm trying to tell that lady.

[B]

Over there probably call, oh, I know.

[D]

It'S like the kids, she thinks we're trying to steal her truck.

[C]

Do you even know how to drive?

[D]

We're 11.

[B]

It clearly says no trespassing, and I always want them to go. There doesn't need to be a call.

[C]

For service every time the kids are.

[B]

Playing in the yard. She's always messing with people's kids.

[C]

Sher's all this one minute.

[B]

My neighbor has been screaming outside. She started banging on her door, pounding on it. Let me in.

[D]

And then bang.

[B]

I'm peaceful, I'm quiet. I don't bug anybody.

[C]

Go outside with your hands up.

[B]

You barely ever see me. I'm like the perfect neighbor. All right, so before I tell you what happened at the trial, Dave, you prosecuted in Florida. This seems kind of like a clear case for them, right?

[C]

Yeah. The only question is whether it's a manslaughter case or a murder case. And I know the state attorney there. He's a good person. He chose manslaughter. This could have been a murder case. And this defendant is lucky in a way that she's not in prison for the rest of her life. She's a Karen who. This is almost inevitable that she was going to do something terrible. But whether she would get a gun and then shoot through a locked door while the cops are on the way, I mean, come on. And you know what also frustrates me? Apparently on the show she said, I just never, ever thought in a million years this would happen. And it just. It breaks my heart, really. Never thought in a million years that if you shoot someone through a door, someone could die. So I have no sympathy for her. This is a tragedy. And not only that, you have this poor victim who was murdered in front of her young child.

[B]

Yeah.

[D]

Yeah.

[B]

I mean, if they were going to go with this defense, they definitely needed to show a history of prior abuse. And she said that she had been abused, but to show somehow that she's more fragile, you know, more fragile than the next person. And so her abuse somehow was relevant to it. So what did happen in this case? She went to trial in 2024, in August, and she was found guilty of manslaughter. And I was curious about that, Dave, too, why they didn't charge malice murder, because it seems like they could. You know, what was interesting to me is she told the police that Owens had attacked her previously and that she felt like Owens was trying to break down the door before the shooting. I think the problem, though, is the evidence showed that she had already called law enforcement when the shooting happened, and she had to go actually to another room to find the gun. So that you know, that gap is when you form malice. That extra time is when you have that intent. When you know they could have shown a malice case. Johnny, you know, she said she was scared, she was terrified, they were threatening her all day. Do you think this history of prior abuse, if her lawyer had been able to show this and show that she was scared, would have done anything would have made a difference?

[D]

What I think sunk it for her was the history with this particular victim and the entire neighborhood of kids, which she clearly couldn't stand for the two years that she lived there. And they called her Karen and that's exactly what she was. And the police would show up all the time and then they wouldn't do anything because here was this curmudgeonly, hey you kids, get off of my lawn type of woman. But I don't think they ever looked at her as a potential violent threat. So just, just looking at this from an academic perspective point of view. If we remove the layer of the history with the actual neighbors, forget her own history for a second, her own mental illness, which I clearly think she has. If you are behind your front door and somebody is banging on it and let's assume that she's not lying when she says she was threatening to kill me. So we have a victim who's banging on the door, I'm going to kill you. I'm going to kill you. You know, the police are on the way, your home is your castle, you're in a stand your ground state, state. If there were no history with that victim, would the self defense defense have stuck? And I think it may have. I think what sunk her is that the judge said you shot out of anger, not out of fear. And he had to have based that on the two years history with this particular victim and the family.

[B]

Right. And I mean I really think what sunk her was the fact that she's behind a door, you know, and law enforcement's on the way and she had to actually leave her post to go find a gun, something that wasn't required. Next, your question and closing arguments. Stay tuned.

[F]

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[B]

To our closing arguments in your mail. But first, Megyn Kelly is going on tour and we're going with her. MEGYN Kelly Live. Join Megan from coast to coast as she takes Megyn Kelly show on the road. Megan believes it is now more important than ever to be talking about what's true, what's real. So get ready for an evening of no bs, no agenda, and no fear that you will not want to miss. Go to MeganKelly.com for tickets and details. And I know all of us are going to be at a show near you. So we have a mailbag I want to talk about. We've got something from Melissa and it ties into our topics from earlier. Melissa wrote and asked if Brian Kober had not left behind the knife sheath, would he have gotten away with it? Probably not, but it would have taken a lot longer to solve. The video evidence was pretty clear. It was pretty damning, the video where he was circling around in that area. But Melissa, I want to tell you to watch a special bonus episode that we have where Phil Holloway, our very own, was interviewing the CEO of a forensic lab and talking about how that lab actually helped to identify Kohberger. Quickly. Next up, we've got closing arguments. Ladies first.

[D]

All right, guys, my closing argument has to be about Halloween because with Halloween just a week away, I'm inspired to share with the younger, overly coddled generation a lesson in survival. Somewhere in the cultural chasm between the end of Gen X and the start of Gen Z, our nation's youth underwent a gigantic collective wussification, a phenomenon that can be demonstrated by exploring certain Halloween rituals from years past. In my day, packs of kids ventured out for Halloween wearing ill fitting, highly flammable and probably toxic costumes with zero adult supervision because, well, the chances of the local drunk barreling over all of us in his wood paneled station wagon was only moderate and frankly taught us not to straggle. Next, while we banged on doors with ratty pillowcases, begging neighbors for store bought treats, we occasionally were forced to feign appreciation for a homemade popcorn ball. These balls were typically supplied by the family, who had more kids under their roof than toes on their feet. The home popped kernels would be rolled in a vat of, I don't know, marshmallow maybe. It was hard to be sure on account of these Halloween killjoys often had six cats and three dogs, requiring us kids to pluck the fur coat off the balls of corn if we wanted to put them in our mouths. Which we did. The only Halloween treat we would truly avoid were the apples, on account of we were warned that only sick, unshaven weirdos gave out apples so they could poison us with them. Still, if mom didn't notice the clear hypodermic piercing in its flesh, we would find that same apple in our lunch the next day. Speaking of apples, one of our most popular Halloween traditions was a game aptly called bobbing for apples. The game was played by floating a bunch of apples in a large tub of ice water, while one by one, kids would approach the tub with our hands secured behind our backs because the prospect of somebody actually drowning during the game added an extra level of excitement. Then we would plunge our heads into the tub of floating apples, hoping to fish when out using just our teeth. As if the heathens, who may or may not had typhoid, wasn't sufficiently badass. Sometimes a frustrated parent would help us out by inserting several toothpicks into the apples to make it easier for us to catch them with our face. If you think about it, these barbaric rituals helped my generation. Helped my generation be the last generation of non pussies. Our parents didn't pedal us around or check ingredients for anything that might make us itch. No, they sent us out in the dark and let us come this close to being road pizza and losing an eye in a tub of floating fruit. To be clear, our parents wanted the candy as much as we did. They just weren't willing to work for it. If we found a razor blade inside of Baby Ruth, we ate around it. And as for those furry popcorn balls, we sucked it up so as not to be rude to the neighbors of lesser means. What's the lesson? If you want your kids to grow up and not be whiny little wimps, try trading your modern Day Trunk or treat bullshit. For a good old fashioned Halloween, why don't ya?

[B]

I really want to show you our house at Halloween.

[C]

That was so good.

[B]

I'm gonna bring a video of that.

[D]

So true. It's so true.

[C]

Those Flambeau costumes. They never breathed in the humidity of October in Florida. To have to. It's like a Saran wrap around your body was awful.

[B]

And everybody smushed the candy to see if there were razor blades. All right. By the way, I want a Baby Ruth. Now that I really want a Baby Ruth. Dave, it's your turn.

[C]

I never understood the whole thing that your neighbors would put razor blades inside apples so you shouldn't eat the fruit. Like, is that a thing? Unless your neighbor is Bryan Kohberg. I just never heard of that. Really happen.

[B]

We did.

[C]

All right. So if it's up to me, I'll go because I have a message for Speaker Mike Johnson. Resistance is futile. Now there's something called a discharge petition. That's when members of the House get together a majority and they sign a document and they can force a bill past the speaker and get it on the floor for a vote even if the speaker doesn't want it. Well, that's the attempt when it comes to the Jeffrey Epstein files to require them to be released. And there is a discharge petition. And Speaker Johnson was so scared of that, he adjourned the House. And now the House is back in session. Or is it? There's a government shutdown. And they now have the vote to get it to the floor to pass that discharge petition. Because it was a special election. And a Democrat in Arizona was elected, Representative Adelita. Grijalova. And she has said she will be the deciding vote and get it to the floor. But again, there's a government shutdown. So Speaker Johnson is saying, I can't swear you in. Sorry, my hands are tied. Except that's not the legal precedent. Other members in special elections have been sworn in quite quickly, sometimes even during pro forma sessions or when the House was not even in regular session. In fact, according to the law, the speaker of the House only has ministerial duties on swearing in members who have been duly elected and otherwise qualified to serve as members of the House Representatives. He does not have discretionary power to decide who gets sworn in and who does not. So the Attorney General of Arizona has filed a lawsuit to force Speaker Johnson's hand and get their congresswoman sworn in. I don't know the future of that lawsuit. I think by the time it reaches the appellate courts, the Shutdown will be over and this whole thing will proceed. But in the meantime, Speaker Johnson is saying, you know, we've done enough. There's all these documents that are being released by the special committee, the committee chaired by James Comer, relating to Epstein. Well, 97% of the documents included in a September release of 33,000 pages had already been made public. Had already been made public. So there's that. And also the interview with Ghislaine Maxwell. That's not enough. The interview with Alex Acosta. That's not enough. So, Speaker Johnson, try as you may to distract and delay. This controversy isn't going away until the files are released. Resistance is futile.

[B]

All right, well, I guess I'm last up. So I've been doing a little bit of a series where I'm going over different steps in the criminal process and my rant and my feelings on it. We talked first about when the media gets involved and police give statements to the media, and how that can harm a criminal, someone who's accused of a crime. We talked a little bit about people who are interviewed by the police and the techniques and false confessions. What's next in the process? Arrest, bail and bond. Once someone gets arrested, they need to get a bail, they need to get bond. And our system is awful. Our system of bail and our system of bond in this country is horrible. It favors those who have a lot of money. It favors those with means. It favors those who can fill a courtroom with friends and family members to say they're a fine, upstanding member of the community. What it doesn't do is it doesn't favor people who are already marginalized. And quite frankly, it doesn't favor people who are innocent who are accused of a crime. Imagine if you had been innocent. And you do have to imagine that, because in this country, we have guilt beyond a reasonable doubt as a trial standard. And you are innocent until proven guilty. So someone gets arrested, they're innocent. You have to believe they're innocent at that point. Our system requires it. But yet they go in front of a judge and have to beg and plead to get out on bond. And if they're lucky enough to get a bond, they have to come up with money. They have to beg and plead a family member to come up with money. Because quite frankly, if you think about it, how many people have ten grand cash just laying around? That's a very reasonable amount for a bond, $10,000. How many Americans have $10,000 that they could get on a whim to get a loved one out of jail. Very, very few. So what happens? You get locked up, you get snatched out of the community without any notice. I want you to think about how much planning goes into taking a one week vacation. If you're lucky enough to be able to take a one week vacation, you probably have planned for six months. You have planned for someone to water your plants, feed your cats, feed your dogs, take care of grandma, get your trash. Well, if you're innocent and you're accused of a crime, you didn't have any planning, they just rip you out of society. You can't let your job know, you can't pay your mortgage, you can't give your spouse or your loved ones your logins, Nothing like that. You're just removed from the community, let alone your ability to help in your own defense. You've got your defense lawyer who comes in and says, oh, I would love to have all those documents. Well guess what, they're in jail, can't give them to you. It costs a lot of money. We spend so much money incarcerating people while our slow ass system waits to bring them to court. Years, years because of a backlog. And the big reason that people don't get bond a lot, the dirty secret is that it forces pleasure. People are a lot more likely to take a plea to something they didn't do to get out of jail. Happens all the time. I beg clients all the time not to do it. But I can't blame them if they do. They want to go home. So people plea to things they didn't do because they don't get bond and we've got to fix it. It's a bad system. We need to get rid of cash bond. Thank you all for joining us. I would also like to thank my fellow contributors Jona Spielberg and Dave Aronborg and thank you for joining us today. And if you want to send us story suggestions or you have any questions, please reach out. We read the emails, we talk about them and obviously today we brought up I highlighted another show you can watch. Send those suggestions and emails to mktruecrimelmaycare media.com I hope everyone has a great weekend.

[G]

Hey everyone, it's Nikki and Bri and we're here to let you know that we have a podcast, the Nicki and Brie Show. Yes, and we've got new episodes every Monday and Thursday. We're serving up real deal conversations that go beyond the cameras. Think Motherhood Confessions, Sisterhood Vibes, Boss Business Energy and TV Live Tea. Need a laugh? We got you craving inspo. We got inspiration and affirmations on deck. Want a little cry or a big? Heck yes. That's our jam. Whether we're breaking down pop culture, sharing parenting wins or fails, unpacking personal growth, or just riffing on everyday chaos, nothing is off limits. Plus, we welcome incredible guests, play our favorite games, and do what only sisters can keep it 100 while raising a glass together. So pop a bottle, hit play, and come hang with us. Listen to the Nikki and Bri show wherever you get your podcast.