Luigi Fist Pumps in Court, Suspect Off Meds in Cruise Death, Murdaugh Clerk of Court Pleads Guilty

Summary

MK True Crime Podcast Summary

Episode: Luigi Fist Pumps in Court, Suspect Off Meds in Cruise Death, Murdaugh Clerk of Court Pleads Guilty
Date: December 10, 2025
Host: Dave Aronberg
Co-Host: Ashley Merchant

---

Overview

In this episode of MK True Crime, hosts Dave Aronberg and Ashley Merchant delve into several high-profile criminal cases currently making headlines. They discuss disturbing new details from a cruise ship death investigation, analyze legal wrangling in the Luigi Mangione case (including a controversial court appearance), break down the charging of five people in connection with Matthew Perry's overdose, and wrap up with a look at the guilty plea from the notorious Murdaugh clerk of court. The episode features deep legal analysis, colorful storytelling, and thoughtful debate on justice and the emotional weight of the criminal law profession.

---

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Anna Kepner Cruise Death Case

[00:50–11:44]

• Background: Anna Kepner, 18, was found dead on a cruise with her family. The cause: mechanical asphyxiation. Ruled a homicide—main (and only) suspect is her 16-year-old stepbrother, who shared a cabin with her.
• Custody Hearing Details:
  • Focus on Anna’s stepmother, Chantal Hudson Kepner, and ex-husband Thomas Hudson, disputing custody of their 9-year-old daughter (Anna’s stepsister).
  • Chantal claims the children "were like the three amigos, best friends" ([04:06]).
  • Chantal asserts the 16-year-old is not allowed home during the FBI investigation:
    “No, not with the FBI investigation.” —Ashley ([04:39])
    “As of right now, he’s not coming back to the home.” —Ashley ([04:52])
• Parental Responsibility & Allegation Handling:
  • Dave: Finds it troubling that Anna was missing for 18 hours on the cruise before family reacted:
    “If your stepdaughter was missing for 18 hours, wouldn’t you be asking questions?” —Dave ([05:00])
  • Ashley notes allegations from Anna's ex-boyfriend that the stepbrother acted inappropriately.
• Suspect’s Medication & Missed Doses:
  • The 16-year-old suspect was on ADHD medication (methylphenidate) and Clonidine for insomnia—a few doses missed during the cruise.
  • Ashley explains possible side effects:
    “Not taking your medicine is just as dangerous as overdosing … Mood swings, agitation, panic, anxiety, depression.” —Ashley ([07:57])
• Jurisdictional Challenges:
  • Crime occurred in international waters; FBI is the lead agency.
    “There is concurrent jurisdiction, and that means the state or the feds could prosecute.” —Dave ([10:35])
  • More likely to stay federal due to complexity and resources.

---

2. Luigi Mangione Case: Legal Maneuvering & Courtroom Behavior

[14:00–26:43]

• Concurrent Jurisdiction Noted: Luigi is being prosecuted in both state and federal courts—a "buy one get one" per Ashley ([14:17]).
• Evidence Suppression Fight:
  • Luigi was arrested over 100 miles away from the crime scene, found with a backpack (containing a weapon and alleged "manifesto").
  • Key Suppression Issues:
    • Statements: Were his Miranda rights violated? Defense argues he invoked his right not to talk, but police continued questioning.
      • Dave’s analysis: Prosecution will argue he wasn’t “formally arrested,” so Miranda didn’t yet apply; defense could get some statements excluded, but not all ([16:23]–[18:05]).
    • Backpack Search: Searched at the scene for officer safety (quick check), but more thorough search conducted at station without a warrant.
      • Ashley argues the later search is likely an "inventory search," not incident to arrest—a suppressible offense ([19:43]):
        “That is 100% inventory search. How are you going to get that evidence in?” —Ashley ([19:43])
      • Dave counters with the “inevitable discovery” rule and officer safety, due to suspect’s past:
        “They are there to protect themselves. … They have had a history of bringing a bomb to the police station.” —Dave ([21:16])
  • Striking Evidence in Backpack:
    • Items included a gun, silencer, “manifesto,” and a to-do list: “trim eyebrows” (the suspect’s unkempt eyebrows aided his capture).
      “He was caught because of his bushy eyebrows. Very Bryan Kohberger-esque.” —Dave ([22:40])
  • Fist Pump in Court:
    • Luigi caught on camera doing a ‘fist pump’ in the courtroom—hosts see this as a glaring lack of remorse:
      “He cost two kids their father and there he doesn’t look repentant at all.” —Dave ([24:18]) “All of this stuff … is going to come back and bite him.” —Ashley ([24:51])
  • Legal Team: Defense led by Karen Agnifilo in state court, with a separate death penalty lawyer in federal proceedings.

---

3. Matthew Perry Ketamine Overdose Charges

[29:55–36:36]

• Context: Five people charged in the 2023 death of Friends actor Matthew Perry by ketamine.
• Doctor “Dr. P” Pleads Guilty:
  • Key quote:
    “Let’s take advantage of this moron.” —re Dr. P’s message, recounted by Dave ([30:51])
  • Receives 30 months in prison and will never practice medicine again.
• Ethics and Exploitation:
  • Ashley: Feels distinguishing factor is profiting from Perry’s addiction, not the act alone ([32:05]).
• Other Defendants:
  • “Ketamine Queen” Jasmine Sangow, a dealer, faces up to 65 years. Represented by Mark Geragos ([34:32]).
  • Eric Fleming, who connected Perry to Sangow, faces 25 years after texting “delete all of our messages,” a classic conspiracy move ([36:21]).
  • Perry’s assistant (who injected the drugs) faces up to 15 years ([36:36]).
• Broader Take:
  “Whenever you are sending a message saying, delete all our messages, you have to go to prison for that because… it’s just for stupidity.” —Dave ([36:26])

---

4. Becky Hill: The Murdaugh Clerk Scandal

[37:16–42:28]

• Background: Becky Hill, clerk of courts in the Alex Murdaugh trial, pled guilty—but not to jury tampering.
• Key insights:
  • Wrote a book based on inside info and plagiarized content, lied to court, but the conviction of Alex Murdaugh likely stands. “She’s humiliated … she has absolutely disgraced herself.” —Dave ([41:19])
  • Discussion about the power of juror pressure and the “holdout” juror phenomenon, with Ashley noting the frequency of jurors claiming they were pressured later ([39:42]).
  • Analogies: Clerks of courts as “offensive linemen”—not meant to be in the spotlight ([37:47]).
  • Colorful description of small-town justice and the intimacy of local court systems ([41:47]).

---

5. Listener Mailbag: Emotional Toll of True Crime Law

[45:40–49:26]

• Question from Selena: How do lawyers manage the emotional impact of tough cases?
  • Ashley: “Vicarious trauma” is real—takes regular time off, feels deeply for convicted clients and their families ([46:15]).
  • Dave: Prosecutors must “compartmentalize” to handle the tragic stories they encounter. Shares the example of a victim who lost an arm in a domestic violence attack ([47:39]).
  • Urges more compassion and understanding between prosecution and defense bar.

---

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On the Anna Kepner Case:
  • “If your stepdaughter was missing for 18 hours, wouldn’t you be asking questions?” —Dave Aronberg ([05:00])
• Medication Insight:
  • “Not taking your medicine is just as dangerous as overdosing on medicine, something like that.” —Ashley Merchant ([07:57])
• Luigi Case Fist Pump:
  • “He doesn’t look repentant at all … he deserves to spend, in my mind, the rest of his life in prison.” —Dave Aronberg ([24:18])
• On courtroom image:
  • “What you wear to court, you’re trying to portray an image. And I think she’s trying to portray this image that she’s mom of the year. And I don’t think any of us are really buying it.” —Ashley Merchant ([09:55])
• Ethics in Medicine & the Law:
  • “You take a Hippocratic Oath. Terrible.” —Dave Aronberg on Dr. P ([32:05])
• On Jury Nullification and Juror Pressure:
  • “A jury does not actually have to reach a verdict. … You are allowed to vote your conscience.” —Ashley Merchant ([49:41–51:36])
• On the Murdaugh Clerk:
  • “Her name is now synonymous with lying, with plagiarizing, with trying to be the star of a show that wasn’t her own show.” —Dave Aronberg ([41:19])

---

Timestamps for Key Segments

• Anna Kepner Cruise Death Case: 00:50–11:44
• Luigi Mangione Case (Suppression & Fist Pump): 14:00–26:43
• Matthew Perry Ketamine Case: 29:55–36:36
• Murdaugh Clerk Becky Hill: 37:16–42:28
• Listener Mailbag (Emotional Toll of Cases): 45:40–49:26
• Final Rants / Closing Arguments: 49:41–54:47

---

Tone & Style

• Conversational, expert, sharply analytical
• Blunt legal opinions (“He deserves to spend… rest of his life in prison” – Dave)
• Frequent lawyerly banter and dark humor
• Accessible explanations of legal technicalities (concurrent jurisdiction, search & seizure, juror pressure)
• Occasional Southern legal folklore from Ashley for color

---

Closing Thoughts & Arguments

Ashley Merchant:

• Urges jurors (and listeners) to remember their right to vote their conscience and not feel bullied into verdicts:
  “You do not have to reach a verdict. … You can always speak your mind. The jury has to speak the truth and speak their mind…” ([49:41–51:36])

Dave Aronberg:

• On the Epstein files and transparency:
  “Don’t think for a second that grand jury records will satisfy the public’s desire to see the names of the co-conspirators. Only the release of the unredacted Epstein files … will do that.” ([51:36–54:47])

---

For Listeners Who Missed the Episode

This episode delivers penetrating legal insights into some of the nation’s most sensational current crimes, blending expert legal debate with a strong sense of justice, ethics, and empathy for all parties. The Anna Kepner case highlights the complexities of crime in international waters and family dysfunction; the Luigi Mangione case gives an inside look at evidentiary battles and the optics of courtroom behavior; and the Matthew Perry death prosecution explores ethical breaches in the medical and celebrity worlds. The episode closes with thoughtful reflections on the trauma lawyers face and the critical moral authority of jurors.

Transcript

[Dave Aronberg]

If you are a fighter, Modelo is your reward. So listen close.

[Ashley Merchant]

You are strong.

[Dave Aronberg]

You are fearless. You are a fighter. And every last drop of this rich, golden Modelo is yours. So raise it up high because you've earned it. Modelo, the mark of a fighter.

[Ashley Merchant]

Drink responsibly.

[Dave Aronberg]

Being reported by Karlin Imports, Chicago, Illinois.

[Ashley Merchant]

Before the trophy and bragging rights are rightfully yours.

[Dave Aronberg]

Before your sleeper turns.

[Ashley Merchant]

In a season no one saw coming.

[Dave Aronberg]

Before stats and projections turn into points on the board and your lineup falls perfectly into place, you flip the lid on a can of on nicotine pouches. And as you make your first pick, you know this is the season where.

[Ashley Merchant]

Fantasy'S going to surpass reality.

[Dave Aronberg]

It's on products for tobacco consumers 21.

[Ashley Merchant]

Years of age or older. Warning, this product contains nicotine. Nicotine is an addictive chemical.

[Dave Aronberg]

Welcome to MK True Crime. I'm Dave Aronberg, former state attorney for Palm beach county and managing partner at Dave Aronberg Law and also the Florida lawman that's trademarked. Here's what's on the docket today. An emergency custody hearing involving the family of Anna Kepner, the teen found dead last month on a cruise has revealed new disturbing details in the case. The pre trial hearings in Luigi Mangione state case have unearthed never before seen evidence and we'll bring you the latest. And five people have been charged in connection with a drug overdose death of actor Matthew Perry. Are they culpable? We'll discuss. I'm joined by my co host for today fellow MK true crime contributor Ashley Merchant, AKA the A team. Ashley and Ehrenberg. She's a criminal defense lawyer from Atlanta, Georgia and a superstar here on our channel. Ashley, it's just the two of us. Who needs Arthur Aydala, the other member of the A team? Let's kick things off with the updates in the Anna Kepner case. Just a reminder, Anna Kepner was the 18 year old girl found dead from mechanical asphyxiation while on a cruise with her family last month. Her death has been ruled a homicide, but no one has been charged with her murder yet. Her 16 year old stepbrother who shared a cabin with Ann on the cruise seems to be the only suspect in the case right now. We got some more insight into the family dynamics at play here from an emergency custody hearing between Anna's stepmother Chantel Hudson and her ex husband. So Ashley, what's your take on this?

[Ashley Merchant]

So I've got I sort of had to create Dava a who's who for this custody hearing, as we often do, when you've got families that, you know, maybe been married more than once and have different names. And so I sort of made a chart so I could figure out who's who. Because this custody hearing was interesting. We got a lot of insights. So Chantal Hudson Kepner, that's Anna's son. Stepmom. So she was actually on the cruise, the cruise when Anna died. Her husband, this is her ex husband, Thomas Hudson. Okay, so that's her ex husband. That's where the Hudson names come comes in. They have a child together, a nine year old. This nine year old girl is also the one that is the subject of this custody hearing. Okay, so Anna's dad is the current husband of Chantel. All right, so that's how they're related to Anna. She's the suspect's mom. The boy, the 16 year old boy that we believe is a suspect but hasn't been charged. Thomas wants custody of their 9 year old. All right, so that's why we're in court on this. Emergency custody. Thomas wants custody. Essentially, Anna is saying that it's fine. I mean, I'm sorry, not Anna, the mom. Chantel mom is saying it's fine. They should. This, this nine year old should be able to live with me. Everything's fine. The kids were all super close. We actually have a side, I think SOT1 where she's talking about how the kids were the three amigos and they were all super close and staying in this room together. I don't know if we have sa for that. Anna, who we know passed away, she was 18, correct? Correct. And she was an adult. Correct. And was she given the option of, of staying in another room? All three of the kids were okay. And would that room have been with grandma and grandpa? Correct.

[Dave Aronberg]

And they didn't want to do that?

[Ashley Merchant]

No, they wanted to stay together. Did they all get along? Yeah, they're. The three of them are like the three amigos. They're best friends. Three amigos. So. So what I think is really interesting is the mom then tells, and I think we have this at Sat 3 then tells the judge that the suspect is not allowed to come home while the FBI is investigating. And so apparently that's good enough for. For custody. Do we have SAT three.

As.

Far.

[Dave Aronberg]

As gonna be allowed to come back to your home at any point at this time?

[Ashley Merchant]

No, not with the, the FBI investigation.

[Dave Aronberg]

Whether or not your husband will allow him to return to the home even if the investigation concluded as of right.

[Ashley Merchant]

Now, he's not coming back to the home.

I don't know, Dave, if you were the judge, would that be enough for you?

[Dave Aronberg]

You know, family court is different than criminal court. And here, clearly, you don't want to put a child in a bad situation. And as long as this young man is not going to be at the same home, totally separate, out of the picture, then I don't have an issue with it. There's no allegation that anyone else may have done this to Anna. Now, the thing is, I don't know if I'd be rewarding this mother with mother of the Year awards because she not only did she let the kids all stay together, but there are the allegations, apparently from the ex boyfriend of Anna Kepner that the stepbrother was acting inappropriately towards her. And after Anna went missing that night, they didn't even see her for 18 hours. You're on a cruise ship. If your stepdaughter was missing for 18 hours, wouldn't you be asking questions? I mean, like, demanding answers? So I think that, you know, the mother is not getting a lot of sympathy, but there's a big step from there to charging her with a crime. And so I still think we need more evidence. The only thing I'm really surprised about is that I do think there's enough evidence against the stepbrother based on everything we know. I mean, and when you're on a cruise ship, it's maybe the worst place to commit a crime. I mean, you're stuck together on this small space, cameras everywhere. You need a key card to get in and out of your room. And so how do you not make an arrest at this point? I guess, are they waiting for the medical examiner to make public their cause of death? I don't know. I don't know what's taking them so long.

[Ashley Merchant]

Yeah, I'm not. I'm not sure either. You know, and they said mechanical asphyxiation. And I think, you know, for our viewers that don't really know what that means, because mechanical, you think, oh, well, is there some machine attached? That just means some pressure from the outside. You know, if you asphyxiate and you choke, that's internal. But if somebody's actually applying pressure. So I think, you know, regardless of whether or not the Emmy's report is public, we all know someone choked her. You know, it was a chokehold. Like, that's not disputed. What I thought was interesting from this hearing, this emergency hearing, was something that the mom said about, and it kind of gives us a glimpse into what's going on with this kid with a 16 year old that he was on medicine and he was on for adhd? Not a big deal. Half of America probably is on for adhd, but he was also on medicine and I think we've got this for on SOT2 that he missed some medicine. So if you want to play that we can talk about what he missed.

[Dave Aronberg]

Does he have any diagnoses?

[Ashley Merchant]

He has adhd.

[Dave Aronberg]

Does he receive medication for his adhd? He does. And what medication was he on for you? Methylphenoline. And did he take the medication on the cruise with him? Yes.

[Ashley Merchant]

He also takes a nighttime pill as well.

[Dave Aronberg]

The same medication? No, it's clonidine.

What is that for?

[Ashley Merchant]

Insomnia.

[Dave Aronberg]

Did you make sure he took his medications every day?

[Ashley Merchant]

He took his morning pill every day.

[Dave Aronberg]

And he missed two doses of his clonidine at night. And what do you mean he missed the dose? What happened there? He went to bed.

[Ashley Merchant]

Before he got it, he was already asleep. Including that Thursday night? No, Thursday night he didn't get it. I fell asleep before he did. So I can tell you, if I was representing this, this young man, the first thing I would be asking him is what do you take, what are you prescribed, what doses, what did you miss? And then I'd be researching what the side effects are because not taking your medicine is just as dangerous as overdosing on medicine, something like that. And so if he's prescribed something like Klonopin and Klonopin is essentially catapress, we know that, but it's got a lot of side effects. I mean if you look at the side effects, what are they? Mood swings, agitation, panic, anxiety, depression. All things that could have affected what's going on here. And the fact that he's not in the public eye and then he's not at home tells me that they're doing something, some type of a study to try and figure out what was going on with this kid. Cuz he's 16 at the time that this happened, you know, and he's taking medicine, Those affect a 16 year old differently. So I think they're probably taking a deep, deep dive into the defense as what's going on with this kid, you know?

[Dave Aronberg]

Yeah. He said that he didn't remember what happened the night Anna died. You don't remember it, you're the chief suspect. That's something you would generally remember. And so that's setting up a defense. Diminished capacity. Maybe it was the drugs that did it. And throw yourself on the mercy of the Court, because you're a juvenile. It's all bad. And, you know, they asked her, the mother, if she ever missed the dosage, and she said he missed the dosage. She made it like it was his fault, and then used passive voice to try to make sure she's not culpable. So she was cya ing a lot for herself there. Plus, I do notice a little things. I know you do. I mean, she's dressed like she's going to church, you know, very matronly with that horrible blue dress and the glasses and the long hair. So she's clearly not going to the nightclub, which is good. But to me, it seems like in a way, maybe I'm cynical, but she is really trying to put on this image of someone maybe that she's not.

[Ashley Merchant]

Yeah, no, definitely, definitely. And that's interesting because I actually made a note about. When we talk about the Luigi case and the police, you know, what they wear to court. It's important what you wear to court. You're trying to portray an image. And I think she's trying to portray this image that she's mom of the year. And I don't think any of us are really buying it, but. Okay. So since we have you, Dave, and you are the Florida lawman, Jurisdiction. I am super curious about this because I love these weird crime issues, you know, jurisdiction. So on international waters, this. This crime happens, the FBI is investigating it. We've got American citizens, you know, American investigators. International waters. A ship that has probably got a flag of a different country. Who is. Where's this going to end up?

[Dave Aronberg]

Well, there is concurrent jurisdiction, and that means the state or the feds could prosecute this case. But it's telling that it's been the FBI and only the FBI, that's been the investigative agency here. Now, they could get assistance by the state. But generally, when you are a state prosecutor, as I was, and the feds are investigating it, it's their case. The only time you'll take it from them is if they step back. It's almost never. Do you grab a case when the feds are investigating? The feds generally have better resources. They have tougher statutes. They have unlimited budgets. I mean, the federal government can print money. Unlike state governments, they have also better discovery rules for the prosecution. The state discovery rules. If you are a state prosecutor, you've got to turn over everything all at once. It's very generous for defense lawyers. You'd love it down here in Florida, Ashley, but.

[Ashley Merchant]

Sounds fabulous, actually.

[Dave Aronberg]

Right? Yeah.

[Ashley Merchant]

We don't have that in Georgia.

[Dave Aronberg]

Well, but if you're a federal defense lawyer, oh boy, you're lucky if you get something on the eve of trial. There's so many built in advantages for federal prosecutors. So that's one reason why if they want a case, they take a case.

[Ashley Merchant]

Yeah. And I mean, I was just thinking about the jury. You know, if I was arguing the case as a defense lawyer and arguing venue, it just makes more sense in federal court. You know, it's, it's multi jurisdictional, multi state. It just makes a lot more sense. Ever spend $200 on a fragrance only to realize you hate it? Micro Perfumes fixes that. Now you can try luxury scents without the luxury price. Pick from real designer fragrances like Gucci, Chanel and Versace. It's the real deal. Authentic scents starting at just a few bucks. They come in sleek travel sprays, ship fast, and there's no subscription required. Why gamble on a full bottle? Go to microperfumes.com podcast for up to 60% off. That's microperfumes.com podcast for up to 60% off OnDeck is built to back small businesses like yours. Whether you're buying equipment, expanding your team or bridging cash flow gaps, OnDeck's loans up to $250,000 help make it happen fast. Rated A by the Better Business Bureau and earning thousands of five star Trust pilot reviews, Ondeck delivers funding you can count on. Apply in [e-mail] depending on certain loan attributes. Your business loan may be issued by Ondeck or Celtic Bank. Ondeck does not lend in North Dakota. All loans and amount subject to lender approval.

This holiday. While chase the rush, find your calm with Peak, a luxury wellness brand powered by rare plants and cutting edge ingredients, offering a remedy for the season's hustle. Their science backed botanicals, minerals and vitamins support metabolism, immunity, energy and radiant skin in this festive season of joy. Choose serenity as the ultimate luxury. Peak proudly introduces Sun Goddess Matcha, an organic ceremonial superfood blend crafted from the purest tea leaves. They say it brings a focused boost without jitters or crash. The natural balance of caffeine and calming compounds can keep you centered and alert all day. And they say nutrients in their Matcha help curb sugar and hunger cravings, making it easier to stick to your wellness goals. Ready to gift the glow? Unlock 20% off for life for yourself and everyone on your list. Give the gift of glowing health this holiday season. Get [e-mail] Megan that's P I Q U E life.com Megan.

So we got to talk about Luigi. Oh yeah, we've got Luigi coming up. So it sounds like that case may be in a couple courthouses near us soon. They had some. Looks like they had a couple hearings last week. And I checked this out because this was specifically in the state case. And so I thought it was interesting that they've got what you were just talking about. There's a federal case and there's a state case. And you know, I wanted to throw this out. When you said concurrent jurisdiction, I just, I saw a really funny T shirt the other day that said concurrent jurisdiction. That's like the original buy one, get one. And I thought that's a great way to explain it because you know, our clients are like, what does concurrent mean? What does consecutive mean? It means at the same time. That means the feds and the state can prosecute you at the same time. And lucky for us, we have a perfect example. Luigi, he's being prosecuted by both. So last week we had, we had a hearing. We had a series of hearings actually. And I think these are, this is really interesting. So I wanted to the most of our time talking about it because I love search and seizure issues and I particularly like debating them with a former prosecutor. So just to kind of give our viewers an update of what's happening here. So Luigi's in court and they're really trying to get some stuff suppressed. What are they trying to get suppressed? What they found in his bag, it sounds like the police arrested him 100 miles away or so from the crime scene. Arrested him at a fast food restaurant, he had a backpack on. They started questioning him, he gave him an id. It was a false id. So they arrested him for false id, but did they really arrest him? That's one of the things we're gonna be debating. So they charge him with this, they handcuff him. And then one of the officers is asking him questions. He says, I don't wanna answer any questions. But this officer keeps asking questions and so he's talking. So one of the issues is whether or not those statements can actually come in. Cuz they were pre Miranda. And then the other issue is that backpack. So they took it off at the scene, they did a little search of it. They said incident to arrest. And then about 15, 10 to 15 minutes later, back at the station, they did an actual thorough search of it, but they did it without a search warrant. So I think that's gonna be a real interesting thing to see where this ends up. But let's first talk about these statements. I mean, I'm a defense lawyer. I'm gonna argue that these statements were coerced. He's in handcuffs. He's not free to leave. Luigi should have been read his rights at that point. He's not read his rights. He told the police, I don't wanna talk to you anymore. They kept asking questions, Dave, how do you kip that in?

[Dave Aronberg]

As a prosecutor, I do think that defense lawyers have a better argument on the pre Miranda statements than they do on suppressing the backpack. I think all that stuff in the backpack that's coming in, and that's gold. That's so crucial. The statements are helpful, but they're not a necessity for prosecutors. And the judge knows that. But the argument the prosecutors would make is that he wasn't arrested and he technically could have asked to go and leave. It wasn't a full custodial interrogation and thus the statements are going to come in now. He's going to say that, but I said that I didn't want to speak anymore. But what exactly did he say? He never asked for a lawyer. If he asked for a lawyer. Done. Can't say or can't question him anymore. But he didn't. He stopped speaking. And it's not clear what he said to the officers. But then the officers continue to speak to him and he responded. So there shouldn't be that big of a Miranda issue. Although I can see the judge throwing the defense a bone and saying, well, once he said, I don't want to talk anymore, if that's what he said, we don't know exactly the words, then you have to stop it. But there is a good argument for prosecutors to make that. Number one, he wasn't arrested, so no Miranda warnings were needed. Number two, if this was a custodial interrogation, he first off never asked for a lawyer and never made it clear that he wanted to absolutely stop talking. And the lawyer, the prosecutors, the. Excuse me, the law enforcement officers kept going. So you got a bunch of arguments for the state to get all this stuff in.

[Ashley Merchant]

Yeah, I mean, I unfortunately agree with you. I think the statements are gonna come in. I would argue the crap out of them not coming in. How can you be free to leave when you have handcuffs and they're searching your bag? You know, no one's going to leave when their bag is in the custody of the police. That's not normal, you know, so we'd be arguing that. I think that search. I disagree with you, though, on the search of the backpack. I think they've got a really good argument on the subsequent search, and I think that that was really interesting to me. I was. I was trying to pay attention to the actual timeline, you know, and we're always looking at these timelines with search and seizure issues. So the officer. And this I did want to bring up, I made a note of this. The officer who is in full police uniform, Dave, they're trained to do that. They're taught to do that. I know as a prosecutor, you probably told police all the time, come in your full uniform. She's probably off duty when she's coming in, but by God, she is on the stand in her full uniform. And that's to have an effect on the court. You know that.

[Dave Aronberg]

That is.

[Ashley Merchant]

I mean, it's undoubtedly to have an effect on the court. Right? You used to tell people that. I'm sure.

[Dave Aronberg]

Sure. What. What's the problem? She's a police officer. Why can't she come in uniform?

[Ashley Merchant]

No, she can. She can totally come in uniform. I just always like to point it out, you know, because it is a show of force. It is a. It. It says something different, you know, it signals something different. But I understand. I go to court in my, you know, my suit.

[Dave Aronberg]

And, you know, well, defendants. Because defendants go to court all dressed up. I've seen defendants go to court with their tattoos on their face covered up, and they have disgusting tattoos on their face, but it's all covered with makeup. Like they would ever go out in public with makeup or they would never dress up like Luigi does. Luigi is normally a slob. He's like a young, privileged college student, the Ivy League guy. And. And so, yeah, they get to put on their errors. So why can't police officers wear their uniform?

[Ashley Merchant]

I have personally put makeup on clients in trial. I can say I have put the scar cover makeup on tattoos in trial. So I definitely can attest that we definitely do that. But. So talking about the suppression, though, this backpack, I want to kind of dig into it a little more because I think it's interesting. So he at the scene, this officer, this uniformed officer, she takes the bag. She looks at it. She doesn't do a full search, but she says that it's incident to arrest. And so she's saying, well, I needed to check it to make sure there's not a bomb. Okay? So that's her reason. So then she takes it. All she finds is the magazine. So she finds the magazine. She doesn't find the gun. She doesn't find the silencer, and she doesn't find the. What they're calling the manifesto, you know, and I hate to use that word because I'm a defense lawyer. I don't want to use a manifesto, but that's kind of what it is. So she finds. She doesn't find that stuff at the scene. She takes the backpack, she drives back to the precinct, and then she goes through it in detail. Okay, so he's already in the process of being booked. We know who he is. Could have gotten a search warrant at that point. So they're going through the backpack, and that is when she's like, oh, I found gold, a gun. And I think she even said something about that, you know, said some explanation about how. How great this is that she found, you know, found a gun and, you know, said, yeah, it's, it's. It's effing him, you know, 100%, like super excited that she found this gun. So at that point, they could have gotten a search warrant. It's undisputed. They didn't have a search warrant. That's not incidental arrest. That's an inventory search. That is back at the station. That is a 100% inventory search. How are you going to get that evidence in? How are you going to get that manifesto in that gun and that silencer in?

[Dave Aronberg]

Well, there's. First off, you're an excellent lawyer, and that's a great argument. There's the inevitable discovery rule that this was going to be found anyways. Prosecutors will often rely on that, I think, also because there's a history here. The law enforcement officer said that in the past they brought a bomb to the police station. And that's something that. Here's a guy who's very dangerous, and they wanted to make sure that they didn't bring a bomb to the police station. So they empty it out and there's a gun, There's a. There's apparently a loaded gun right there. So they were inevitably going to be able to get access to everything. They are there to protect themselves. They've had a history of bringing a bomb to the police station. They have a dangerous person. And although, yes, you're correct, the search was not at the same time as the arrest, they are entitled to search the backpack there. The fact that they decided to complete the search later, maybe they miss a compartment at the time of the search, that shouldn't suppress the entire thing.

[Ashley Merchant]

You know, I think it would be interesting to see what the judge does. And I know that the judges try very hard to keep evidence like this in. And so, you know, we'll see. We'll see what happens. What did you think about the other things they found in that backpack? The to do list, the eyebrows.

Did you notice his on his to do list about plucking his eyebrows?

[Dave Aronberg]

Well, that's how he was caught. Remember? He was in the Altoona McDonald's wearing a mask, and he was caught because of his bushy eyebrows. It's very Brian Coburger esque. Very bushy eyebrows. Give it away. Yeah, that's a tip to all you future murders. You know, maybe you want to trim your eyebrows, get some manscaping going on, right? Not that I would ever give advice to murderers. These people are awful. I. But still, they were caught by their eyebrows. So there is a tip for the future. And also, that is real evidence. I mean, that's the fact that he has written trim eyebrows. Why would you say that? Is he all of a sudden becoming Metro? Is that the thing? No, he's doing. He's trying to get away with it, just like he said. I think in there you gotta get like a escape kit or whatever. It's like survival bag.

[Ashley Merchant]

Escape kit. Yeah, yeah.

[Dave Aronberg]

Why do you need a survival bag? Right? You need a survival bag because you committed a heinous crime. So, yeah, that is devastating evidence against him.

[Ashley Merchant]

I know. I think. I think that note is definitely going to be devastating evidence. I think the manifesto is probably the most, you know, where he's talking about his motives and things like that. You know, I'm just wondering. I'm looking at this list and I'm like, okay, so he had a flash drive, a digital camera and a light source were the things that he needed to get at Best Buy? Like, what did this man have planned next?

[Dave Aronberg]

Well, thankfully, he was stopped. Because if he's a true believer, as he does seem to be, then killing one insurance executive would not be enough for this guy. You know what I really didn't like about all this stuff? Ashley was in court. They have this picture, I think we have it, where he's doing like a fist bump, a fist pump. There it is.

[Ashley Merchant]

Oh, yes, yes.

[Dave Aronberg]

First of all, he's modeling. That's the COVID of gq. He knows what he's doing. This to me angers me because he cost two kids their father and there he doesn't look repentant at all, doesn't look remorseful. He's got a great lawyer, Karen Agniflo, next to him. I know her, she's a great lawyer. But this guy needs to get a hold of himself, check himself and know that he's been given a life of privilege, he's a good looking guy and he deserves to spend, in my mind, the rest of his life in prison, if not worse. Because the feds are going to come in next with concurrent jurisdiction and seek the death penalty.

[Ashley Merchant]

Yeah, now they are. And I think that's what's going to be really interesting about things like this that he's doing when you get the death penalty case. Because, you know, while this stuff that he's, you know, the fist pump and all this stuff he's doing, it's not really relevant in the Manhattan case, but they've got the death penalty case, you know, and the Feds want to actually seek the death penalty. So all of this stuff that he's making it out to be a joke, I think is going to come back and bite him, by the way.

[Dave Aronberg]

I think that's absolutely right. Don't underestimate that. I do think the Attorney General Bondi is watching this and when she sees that, she's gonna be like, we're not giving this up. This is exactly why the Feds came in in the first place. They didn't trust New York State prosecutors to do it. Right. Plus they knew that New York doesn't have the death penalty. And so here they are.

[Ashley Merchant]

I know, and I think that's gonna be interesting also. I thought it was interesting, you know, his lawyer. I'm sure it was. I'm sure that was difficult for her because, you know, I've been in court where I've wanted to take my heel off and literally pummel my client with it, to stop doing whatever it is he's doing in front of a jury or a judge. But her husband is Diddy's lead lawyer, so I thought that was interesting, you know, what we're going to see. But she's not representing him in federal court, so I also thought that was interesting. She is actually only handling the Manhattan case and he's got a death penalty lawyer appointed in the federal case. So I wonder, you know, with these parallel, parallel proceedings, I wonder how that's going to play out. You know, one being focused on the death penalty and one being focused on what's happening in Manhattan and with that jury pool.

[Dave Aronberg]

But interesting. Well, I know Karen and she is a state law expert and that's probably why she's going to focus on the state law, punching holes in the state case and let a federal expert when it comes to death penalty cases handle it. But he's definitely getting the best lawyering that money can buy because he's a guy of privilege. He's the one who's complaining about the system. He seems to benefit from the system very well.

[Ashley Merchant]

Yes. I don't know if you've seen it, but there's actually a website that talks about how to get in touch with him and talks about, you know, it's talking about all the legal proceedings and stuff. So it definitely seems like he's enjoying this a little too much. Yeah.

[Dave Aronberg]

Yeah. Well, that's not it for us today, Ashley, because next, the doctor was just sentenced to 30 months in prison for supplying actor Matthew Perry with ketamine. And Becky Hill, remember her clerk of court in the Alex Murdoch trial? Well, she has pled guilty. Remember? You can email us. We love to read your comments and story suggestions. So email us at mk true crimeevilmadcaremedia.com mk true [e-mail] need to restock inventory.

[Ashley Merchant]

Cover seasonal dips, or manage payroll? Ondeck's small business line of credit provides immediate access to funds up to $200,000 exactly when your business needs it. With flexible draws, transparent pricing and full control over repayment, you can tackle unexpected expenses without missing a beat. Apply [e-mail] and funds could be available as soon as tomorrow. Depending on certain loan attributes, your business loan may be issued by Ondeck or Celtic Bank. Ondeck does not lend in North Dakot. All loans and amounts subject to lender approval. You know that feeling, that nagging sense that something in your life isn't working?

[Dave Aronberg]

Maybe it's your job.

[Ashley Merchant]

It doesn't excite you anymore. Maybe it's your routine. Every day feels the same. Maybe it's your goals. They always seem out of reach. Instead of making a change, you tell.

[Dave Aronberg]

Yourself, I'll figure it out later.

[Ashley Merchant]

Stop waiting. Start making progress with Strawberry Me Coaching.

[Dave Aronberg]

Strawberry Me isn't therapy.

[Ashley Merchant]

And it's not just advice. It's a success strategy for your future.

[Dave Aronberg]

That helps you set clear goals, build a real roadmap and follow through.

[Ashley Merchant]

Because let's be honest, knowing what to do and doing it are two different things.

[Dave Aronberg]

Strawberry Me matches you with a certified.

[Ashley Merchant]

Coach who helps you tackle career changes and big life decisions. If you're stuck, this is how you move forward. Go to Strawberry Me coaching and get 50% off your first coaching session. That's Strawberry Me coaching.

Hey, it's me, Megyn Kelly. Before we dive into our true crime topic of the day, I want to tell you about today's sponsor. If you are wondering how you are going to survive the holiday, season without gaining 10 pounds. Or if you are just sick of feeling sluggish every winter. Listen up. Consider veracity. Veracity says that it provides an all natural drug free way to fire up your metabolism, crush cravings, regain your mental focus and finally feel like yourself again. You've heard the GLP1 hype, right? But if needles and side effects worry you, meet metabolism, ignite. The number one doctor recommended GLP1 booster and natural alternative. They say it's packed with healthy ingredients like hibiscus, green coffee bean and magnesium. And they say it's safe if you are already on a GLP1 or breastfeeding. Verasity says it provides real self care that tackles the root cause of why our metabolism fails us. So consider Veracity. This holiday season, head to verasityself veracityself and use code MK for up to 45% off your order. Once again, that's veracityselfcare.com code MK. Check it out.

[Dave Aronberg]

Welcome back to MK True Crime. Matthew Perry, beloved actor on friends, died in 2023 as a result of a ketamine overdose. Now five people have been charged in connection with his death. So, Ashley, we've got a guilty plea here. This is the main doctor, Dr. P, as he was called. He was the main doctor involved here. As I said, there were several people who were involved, including another doctor, but this was the most culpable doctor. This is the one who said something to the effect of, yeah, let's take advantage of this moron. I mean, they just pretty much exploited his addiction for profit. Awful. He's now very remorseful and he got 30 months in prison. The prosecution had requested just slightly more than that. So he's got that and he's got probation and he's got to pay people back. He's got all the. And he'll never be a doctor again. What do you think about the plea deal? Is this something you would accept?

[Ashley Merchant]

You know, these types of cases are really hard for me because I always try to think about if I'm defending the client, how I'd feel about that and if it was my child, how I would feel about that. And you know, Matthew Perry had a drug addiction and they fueled his drug addiction. I think for me, what sort of changes it, and I think this is what sunk everybody is the fact that they did it for profit. If there had been a doctor that had been supplying medicine and they had been doing it in Matthew Perry's best interest, even if, let's just say he was an addict and he was suffering and they felt, even if we disagree with ketamine, they felt that he needed it, and they were maybe bending the rules a little bit to get it to him, but they weren't really turning a profit. I think it would be different for me. But the fact that they were manipulating him and they were using his addiction and they were using his money, that's what really does it for me. And so I understand why they're prosecuted. I hate what I would consider these vicarious prosecutions where the person. They didn't make him a drug addict. Well, one of them actually did inject him, but it's not like they injected him against his will. I mean, Matthew Perry was a willing participant to all of this, but the problem is they were exploiting him and they were making money off it. And so I think the doctor, for example, definitely. Now if we talk about his assistant, that's one of the people that. Whose cases is pending. That one I feel a little bit differently about. What do you think, Dave?

[Dave Aronberg]

Well, I've thought about who is the most culpable here. The most culpable doctor was Dr. P here. And just for the record, what he said was, I wonder how much this moron will pay? And then he said, let's find out. Yeah, it's just so evil. You take a Hippocratic Oath. Terrible. When it comes to the assistant. He was the one who injected Matthew Perry and then left him alone in the hot tub and then came back and he was dead. But he was doing what Perry told him to do, I think. I mean, he's bad and he's taken a plea and he's going to serve prison, I think. But the real. The person I think is most culpable is the one who's facing the rest of her life in prison. That's the Ketamine Corps queen, who, interestingly, is being represented by our colleague Mark Garagos. Right. If you want the best defense lawyers, you come to MK True Crime. And that one, I do think she is the most culpable, and I'm sure Garagos will think differently. But she was born into privilege. She was actually had a great life and then decided to have a secret life of selling drugs to celebrities, making a lot of money. But would you agree that of all the people here, she's the most culpable? Even though she did not inject him with the drugs, she did not prescribe the drugs, she was the dealer?

[Ashley Merchant]

I think she's going to get the most time, without a doubt. And I mainly think that because of her history. I actually think that the doctor, Dr. P. Was probably the most culpable. And it's really because I think he was in a position of trust. And what you mentioned, Dave, when you said the Hippocratic oath, you know, it's something similar to what we have as lawyers. And I think it's disgusting when lawyers take advantage of a client for money. Similar to, you know, similar to this doctor. Now, the doctor got 30 months. And, you know, I always like to sort of put that in human terms. You know, imagine being removed from your life for 30 months for a man who's never been in trouble before. And I thought this was brilliant by his lawyer, by the way. Said 13. This was. This was the best. I think this was the best luring. I saw the mistakes he made over the 13 days during which he treated Mr. Perry will stay with him forever. I was like, damn, that's brilliant. Thirteen days like that, that was. That was good, you know, because it was a mistake, but it was a mistake. Less than two weeks, you know, that's. That's different than what this drug queen, sorry, Mark Garagos, you know, she's been dealing these drugs for a year. So I think she's gonna have a much, a much harder time. And I also think, I mean, she's facing. What is it she is facing up to 65 years in prison. I mean, and it's California. Like, they don't mess around.

[Dave Aronberg]

No, not when you especially kill a celebrity like this. And remember, the reason why they're throwing the book at her is not just that she killed Matthew Perry, beloved actor, but also it's not her first death. There was another poor guy who was not a celebrity, was not an actor who overdosed on drugs that she provided. And now she's done it again. And I think it's because of that that she may never see the outside of a prison ever again as a free woman. Now, according to the Associated Press, back in September, she supposedly pled guilty to one count of maintaining a drug involved premise, three counts of distribution of ketamine and one count of distribution of ketamine resulting in death or serious bodily injury. For the record, her name is Jasmine Sangow. She is known as the Ketamine Queen. And Mark Garago's come out and said that, look, she feels horrible. She feels. She felt horrible from day one. This has been a horrendous experience. So throwing herself on the mercy of the court. And she'll be sentenced in February. And you're correct, she's facing a maximum sentence of 65 years in prison.

[Ashley Merchant]

Yeah, and I think that that's going to be a tough one. Like you said, the prior death that she's got, that's going to be hard. I'm sure Mark will work his magic, and I'm sure she is remorseful, you know, but I think that just based on our drug policies, I think she's going to. She's going to face a really tough sentencing. There's another person charged, Eric Fleming, who is a former acquaintance of Matthew Perry's. He apparently pled guilty as well to distributing ketamine that resulted in death. He admitted that. And he's sort of the link with this ketamine queen that we're talking about with Senga. He's sort of the link with that. He's also the one. And I think this is really damaging. Upon Perry's death, he reportedly sent a text that said, delete all of our messages. I mean, that's damaging.

[Dave Aronberg]

Well, apparently that was Sanga who sent that.

[Ashley Merchant]

Oh, Sanga sent that.

[Dave Aronberg]

Right, right. But.

[Ashley Merchant]

Oh, she did. You're right. Received the text. I mean, that's just because they're conspiring. I mean, that's. That's classic conspiracy. Delete all of the texts.

[Dave Aronberg]

You know, Fleming, who may have done the least, he just put the people together. You know, he's a former acquaintance of Perry's. He's the one who found the ketamine queen. And because of being the conduit, he's facing up to 25 years in prison. The assistant who actually did the injecting is only facing up to 15 years. And so it is different. But whenever you are sending a message saying, delete all our messages, you have to go to prison for that because it's just for stupidity. Do you think, like, there's not a cloud? You think that. What are you living in the 70s, like, tear up the messages and swallow it, you know? No, these things last in the digital world forever. So, so stupid.

[Ashley Merchant]

Clearly, they should have been using signal long before all of this happened. But I do agree with you on the one. The gentleman, you know, who was actually injecting him. I hope. I hope he gets a break, but. So I. We only have a couple minutes left, but I want to talk about Becky Hill. I know you do, too. Murdoch. We can't get enough of Murdoch. Come on.

[Dave Aronberg]

Well, all right. Well, I'm glad you brought it up because I had followed this case so closely, but I don't have the Southern accent to give me extra credibility like you do. Ashley Merchant.

[Ashley Merchant]

Oh, I love. I love a good Southern store. Love a good Southern justice story.

[Dave Aronberg]

Well, this is the low country right in. In South Carolina. So you had this clerk of courts, and the clerk of courts is like, I don't know if you're a football fan, Ashley, but it's like an offensive lineman in football, which is the only time you hear their names generally, is when they commit a penalty. Generally, you don't want to hear their names. Out of sight, out of mind. Those are the best ones.

[Ashley Merchant]

That's a really good analogy.

[Dave Aronberg]

Oh, thank you. Yeah. Well, here, the clerk of court became a star because she decided to write a book. Oh. And the defense lawyers there said, what do you mean? You're using information that's from the inside and writing the book. Oh. And you plagiarized material from another book. And so that was an embarrassment. She lied to the court. She apparently leaked information. But you know what she's not going down for? She's not going down for tampering with the jury. This guilty plea is not about tampering with a jury, obstructing justice. And it won't, in my mind, affect the conviction of Alec Murdoch, who will stay in prison forever.

[Ashley Merchant]

You know, and I agree with you. I don't think it will affect the decision of the jurors. But I do think it's interesting to look at how it plays into it, because. So what happened was, when this happened, they went and interviewed the jurors, and we have a case here in Georgia. It's a death penalty. They've got an execution set for next week, and it's the same issue. And so I've actually been looking at this issue a lot, where you go back and you interview jurors, and the jurors talk about what happened in the jury room. And I think that this case highlights that. So they went back and they interviewed all the jurors, and they said, you know, did she influence you? What happened? And they got affidavits from them. And one of the jurors, I thought it was really interesting what she said. She. She was kind of ambivalent. And this is really the juror that's at issue. She first said that it did affect her verdict. So at first she said it did, and then later on she said, well, I just stand by my affidavit. But her affidavit said that the other jurors pressured her into a verdict. I cannot tell you how many times a juror calls me after jury service and says, I was pressured into A verdict.

[Dave Aronberg]

And you. You tell them, too bad, because, like that and that.

[Ashley Merchant]

And I don't know if you do this, but I ask. The jurors always ask me, why did you ask those questions in Voidier? I asked them what position they had in work. I asked them how they resolve conflicts. You know, I'm trying to determine if you're going to get pushed around, you know, and. And I literally spend so much time in trial trying to weave in strategies to empower that holdout jury, because that holdout juror is. Is who I'm talking to, you know, and our law says you don't need to abandon your convictions. But we all know what happens in the jury room. And I think this case is one of those prime examples. They get bullied, and then later on they come back and they say, I changed my mind. You know, I was bullied.

[Dave Aronberg]

You know, that. That's, That's a great point because, you know, we prosecutors like the opposite. We don't want people who are going to say, I know what's going on here. Follow me. No, no, no, no, no. Like lawyers. We don't like other lawyers being on juries, apparently. Engineers.

[Ashley Merchant]

I love engineers. I love lawyers. I love it. I love lawyers.

[Dave Aronberg]

You don't like engineers. I still don't understand why we don't. Can you explain this to me? My colleagues try to explain why they hate engineers because they're so precise. They want to see everything from point A to point D. Yes.

[Ashley Merchant]

Yes, it is, because nobody likes to see how the sausage is made in criminal justice. And, you know, there's a lot of error rates, and it's really an inexact science. And I think that a lot of prosecutors are worried about engineers picking it apart because it's not. It's not a mathematical certainty. Nothing is. You know, everything is subjective. So that's why I love engineers. I. I've had jurors with half a dozen engineers love them, think they're great.

[Dave Aronberg]

Wow. What about clerks of courts?

[Ashley Merchant]

Not this one.

[Dave Aronberg]

Yeah, she. She's humiliated. That's part of it. That's why she's not going to serve jail time. I think part of it was that she has absolutely disgraced herself. In a small community, her name is now synonymous with lying, with plagiarizing, with trying to be the star of a show that wasn't her own show. And so I think the punishment has fit the crime. She didn't. I tell you, if the verdict had been overturned, I would think differently. But since it hasn't been overturned, okay.

[Ashley Merchant]

Yeah. Well, before we move on, I want to share one thing about the Southern clerk with you. So, you know, just to put a little perspective on it, if you go into a small Georgia town, which I've tried cases in many small Georgia towns, and, and the clerk of court recently, I had a case in a small Georgia town literally called the jurors who didn't show up for jury duty was texting them from the courtroom, why aren't you here yet? It was classic. You would. You'd never have something like that happen. Said, you know, oh, I saw so and so on the jury pool in church, and they knew about jury service. And I was just like, this is. This is crazy. There's nothing wrong with it, you know, and I actually like it. It's endearing, but it just tells the dynamic of the clerks that that's.

[Dave Aronberg]

Well, here down in. In South Florida. Although I'm out of town right now, as you can tell by my background at the Motel 6, the.

Here in, in South Florida, what happens is that you get calls all the time with, you've missed your jury service. You must pay me $5,000 or also.

[Ashley Merchant]

Oh, my God. Yes. Yes.

[Dave Aronberg]

Yeah. And I know people who've been conned by that. So if you're listening to this, that's a con, that's a scam.

[Ashley Merchant]

Yeah.

[Dave Aronberg]

Hang up the phone.

[Ashley Merchant]

Yeah.

[Dave Aronberg]

All right. Well, with that public service announcement.

We want to announce that MK True Crime will now be featured on the Megyn Kelly channel on Sirius xm. We're so proud of that. As part of of Megan's podcast playlist, MK True Crime will air Tuesday at 10am and Saturdays at 9am and 10am on Sirius XM channel 1 11. Next, we take your questions and our closing argument.

[Ashley Merchant]

OnDeck is built to back small businesses like yours. Whether you're buying equipment, expanding your team, or bridging cash flow gaps, Ondeck's loans up to $250,000 help make it happen fast.

[Dave Aronberg]

Rated A by the Better Business Bureau.

[Ashley Merchant]

And earning thousands of five star Trustpilot reviews, OnDeck delivers funding you can count on. Apply in [e-mail] depending on certain loan.

[Dave Aronberg]

Attributes, your business loan may be issued.

[Ashley Merchant]

By Ondeck or Celtic bank on Deck does not lend in North Dakota. All loans and amounts subject to lender approval come to DSW for the shoes.

[Dave Aronberg]

Stay for the fun.

[Ashley Merchant]

Because let's be honest, if shoe shopping isn't fun, are you even doing it right? So go ahead, try something new. Try something different.

[Dave Aronberg]

Good different.

[Ashley Merchant]

Try something that feels like you, you.

[Dave Aronberg]

Know the real you and then definitely.

[Ashley Merchant]

But brag about it later because at DSW you've got unlimited freedom to play. Find the shoes that get you at prices that get your budget at DSW stores [e-mail] let us surprise you.

So I can safely say that at times, sometimes more than not even, we all feel sluggish, bloated and not quite ourselves. Modern life is hard. Processed foods, too little sleep, endless stress can all disrupt your gut, SAP energy and weaken immune health. Your body's not failing. It might just be starving for the right fuel. Let me tell you about Amra Colostrum, which can help provide sharper energy, less bloating, faster workout recovery, stronger hair and glowing skin. It is nature's original superfood colostrum. With over 400 plus bioactive nutrients that fortify your entire gut wall, nourish your microbiome, balance immune health, ignite metabolism and fuel performance. Amrah is not processed. It's a pure, humanely and sustainably sourced whole food powerhouse. Four daily scoops rebuild you from the inside out for infinite benefits. And here's a special offer. 30% of your first subscription order go to Armra.com Megan or enter the code Megan to get 30% off your first subscription order at checkout. That's a R M R A dot com Megan.

[Dave Aronberg]

Welcome back to MK True Crime. It's time for your questions. Let's open the legal mail bag. All right, this is from Selena. So, Ashley, can you answer this one? Hi, team. I'm new to the MK True Crime show and have been binge listening to the pod. Thank you. Wish there were daily episodes. Well, okay. Not like you are all busy people or anything. You got it. How do you manage the emotional impact that difficult cases or client situations can have on you? Keep up the good work everyone. First off, Selena, thank you for your nice words and your great question. Ashley, can you answer it?

[Ashley Merchant]

Yes, unfortunately I can. When I say unfortunately, I think the term vicarious trauma, you know, I googled that term maybe a year ago because I felt I was suffering it and I saw a lot of colleagues suffering it. And I can tell you we try to actually work into a lot of seminars that I have now talking about this because it's a real issue. And when I say vicarious trauma, secondary trauma, if you think about it, I bet a lot of doctors feel it. And so I try to think about an oncologist. Someone comes to them, they've got cancer and you're trying to cure them. And all you're really doing is trying to undo a bad decision or a bad hand that was dealt or something like that. And so, you know, we have something similar. We take on all of our clients trauma, and it's very hard. One of the things that I personally do to try to separate from that is I take time off, and I'm very strict on that when I take time off, because, you know, some people are like, you're always, you know, out of the office or something. I think every lawyer should take a week off every six weeks. Personally, I will tell every young lawyer that I think you come back a fresher, better lawyer. And, you know, we carry it with us. And at the end of the day, I can tell you when. When a client, if a client, God forbid, gets convicted, if they get sentenced, you are there alone with a grown man crying, sobbing on your shoulder, and it is hard. And you're talking to their mother, you're talking to their loved one, the one that's left behind. And it is very, very difficult. So I appreciate you recognizing that, Selena. And we do love talking about this because it's our passion. But it is hard.

[Dave Aronberg]

And, Selena, you do have to compartmentalize it, because as a prosecutor, you can just be worn down by the senseless tragedies. You see the violence. And sometimes, though, it'll sneak up on you and it'll grab you by the heartstrings and that. I remember one time I was doing a victims rights walk, and we're walking with survivors of crimes, and the woman I was walking next to had one arm, and she was trying to open the cap of her water bottle with the one arm while she was holding it. And I guess she used her teeth to do it. And I found out that the reason why she had one arm was that her abusive boyfriend had set her home on fire while she was in it. And she lost an arm. And it's. It just sticks to me to this day. So, yes, Ashley's right. The clients, and you feel for them, don't forget the victims and survivors of crime. And it's just part of being a lawyer in the criminal justice system.

[Ashley Merchant]

I'm actually glad you mentioned that, Dave, because I think that prosecutors and defense lawyers actually should come together more on this issue. And I've thought about that a lot, and I think a lot of times when a prosecutor is maybe being nasty to me in court or something, I try to think really hard about. They saw the pictures of that child. You know, they listened to the mother crying on their arms. And I Try to think about that, and I try to have empathy for them, because when we're in court, we can get really nasty. And I try to remember they're doing their job. And I try to remind my client's family of that, too. And so I think that we should do a better job as lawyers of reaching across the aisle and recognizing that the trauma that a prosecutor's listening to from a victim is a similar trauma that a defense lawyer is listening to from a defendant's family. And that, you know, we're all in this together and everybody's human beings. And so I'm glad you mentioned that, because I do try to think about that, and I caution defense lawyers to think about it, too, because we can get really in our heads on it. Yeah.

[Dave Aronberg]

Well said. And now it's the most anticipated time of our show. Let's talk about our closing arguments here, our rants. I'm gonna let ladies first, Ashley. Thanks, Dan. Deliver it all right?

[Ashley Merchant]

Yes. Well, it's been great to be here with you here, Dave. I enjoy debating some of the issues of the law and then talking about some that we can come together on. I want to talk about an issue that we talked about earlier today, and it's one of my professor things, you know, about the law. But we talked about juries and what I would call nullification or maybe a holdout juror or maybe, you know, browbeating. If you've ever seen the movie 12 Angry Men, it's interesting because it really talks about what the dynamics are back in that jury room. And I talk a lot to jurors after they've served, and, you know, they don't understand that they don't actually have to reach a verdict. And we often hear jurors tell us, I compromised. You know, we had to reach a verdict. And I think that that is a common misperception. You do not have to reach a verdict. So anytime you're watching these cases and you're like, God, what's going on back in that jury room? I think it's really important to remember that a jury does not actually have to reach a verdict. What the law says is if they reach a verdict, it has to be unanimous, but they don't have to reach a unanimous verdict. And so I always try to tell my jurors that in closing arguments because I think it's really important, and it's especially important as we're seeing laws enacted that we may not agree with. So I know, and I'm not here to debate whether a law is Correct or not. But let's just say there's a law that criminalizes something that maybe you're not a fan of, maybe you think, you know, whatever the political issue is, if it's a free speech issue, if it's an abortion issue, whatever it is, when you serve on a jury, you have the ability to say no thank you to that law. You are allowed to vote your conscience, whatever that is, as long as you follow the law and the law says you can vote your conscience. So I think it's really important for people to remember that when they're involved in true crime dramas or they're involved in watching these trials come about, you can always speak your mind. The jury has to speak the truth and speak their mind, and that can always be what you feel in your heart. You can't be bullied. So that's my rant for today.

[Dave Aronberg]

It's well said, but it's every prosecutor's worst nightmare. Jury nullification. Oh, my goodness. Where, hey, we're going to disregard the evidence in the law, we're just going to vote our conscience based on sympathy. And that happens. It happens more often than we'd like to know. So, yes, well said. Ashley and I would like to talk about the top true crime subject that's still on a lot of people's minds, and that is Jeffrey Epstein, because a federal judge today said that we're going to see more grand jury transcripts, and that's the grand jury up in New York where Jeffrey Epstein was charged in the more recent charge for his crimes. Remember, you had the one in Florida and then you had New York, and there was also Ghislaine Maxwell as well up in New York. So the judge in the Ghislaine Maxwell case is the one who said that we're going to release her grand jury transcripts. The ones for Epstein in New York will eventually be released, but the judge hasn't ruled yet. So the Trump administration has been aggressive in seeking the release of grand jury records. And if you want to know why I think maybe I'm being cynical is they know that Trump's name is not in there. When you're talking about grand jury records, it's just the hearing where you have an FBI agent talking about the evidence against that person. So all you're going to get when it comes to grand jury records against Glenn Maxwell is evidence against Glenn Maxwell, maybe Jeffrey Epstein as well. But you're not going to get against others. So keep in mind that grand jury records are not the same as the Epstein Files. Now we have the Epstein Files Transparency act, which means we're supposed to see those files, which supposedly has the names of all those unindicted co conspirators. But there are a lot of exceptions in that law. You can withhold the records because of a national security exception. You can only provide those that are unclassified. You can withhold the ones that are subject to an ongoing criminal investigation. And there's even ambiguity over whether courts should release grand jury records. But we're seeing that they are. So the interesting thing to me is that Ghislaine Maxwell cautioned the court before releasing these records that she's going to take an appeal on habeas. She's going to perhaps challenge her conviction yet again in federal court for ineffective assistance of counsel. And up to this point, she has been rewarded for her cooperation, but not any longer. So she's at odds with the government. So kudos to Congress for passing the law, kudos to DOJ and the courts for releasing them. But don't think for a second that grand jury records will satisfy the public's desire to see the names of the co conspirators. Only the release of the unredacted Epstein files, with the exception of victim information, will do that. And until those files are released, this controversy is not going away.

That is my rant. I want to thank Ashley Merchant. Great job today. Ashley, I'll give you the chance for the final word.

[Ashley Merchant]

Oh, well, thanks, Dave. I really enjoyed it and I agree with you. Transparency. I would love to see all of the files, all of the records. I think transparency is the best disinfectant. A little sunshine.

[Dave Aronberg]

A little sunshine goes a long way, especially in the courtroom. So I'm Dave Aronberg. That's Ashley Merchant. I want to thank you for being part of MK True Crime. If you have any questions, if you want to comment, Please email us devilmakecaremedia.com thanks for being here. We'll see you next time.

Before the trophy and bragging rights are rightfully yours, before your sleeper turns.

[Ashley Merchant]

In a season no one saw coming.

[Dave Aronberg]

Before stats and projections turn into points on the board and your lineup falls perfectly into place, you flip the lid.

[Ashley Merchant]

On a can of on nicotine pouches.

[Dave Aronberg]

And as you make your first pick, you know this is the season where.

[Ashley Merchant]

Fantasy'S going to surpass reality.

[Dave Aronberg]

It's on. Products for tobacco consumers 21 years of.

[Ashley Merchant]

Age are this product contains nicotine. Nicotine is an addictive chemical.

[Dave Aronberg]

Did you know that parents rank financial.

[Ashley Merchant]

Literacy as the number one most difficult life skill to teach. Meet Greenlight, the debit card and money app for families. With Greenlight, you can set up chores, automate allowance and keep an eye on your kids spending with real time notifications.

[Dave Aronberg]

Kids learn to earn, save and spend.

[Ashley Merchant]

Wisely, and parents can rest easy knowing their kids are learning about money with guardrails in place. Sign up for Greenlight [e-mail] podcast.