Luigi’s DISTURBING Fanbase, Judge Bars California Arsonist Evidence, and “No Body” Cases at Sea, with Investigator David Byington

Summary

MK True Crime Podcast: Luigi’s Disturbing Fanbase, Judge Bars California Arsonist Evidence, and “No Body” Cases at Sea

Host: MK Media (Matt Murphy & Mark Gargos)
Guest: Investigator David Byington
Date: May 22, 2026

Overview

In this episode, true crime experts Matt Murphy (former homicide prosecutor) and Mark Gargos (criminal defense attorney) dive deep into three headline cases making current legal waves:

• The legal implications and societal fallout from the Luigi Mangioni case, with special attention to his unsettling online fan base.
• The Palisades arsonist’s trial—particularly the judge’s decision to suppress evidence about the city's responsibility.
• “No body” murder cases at sea, highlighted by the unresolved disappearance of Lynette Hooker and the parallels to the historic Tom and Jackie Hawks case, with retired Newport Beach Detective Dave Byington sharing investigative insight.

The episode mixes sharp legal analysis, dark humor, and real-world stories from experienced practitioners. Listeners are taken inside the tactical courtroom strategies, the complexities of evidence suppression, and the psychological toll of true crime investigations.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Luigi Mangioni Case – Evidence Suppression and the Rise of the Disturbing Fanbase

[01:03-13:08]

• Judicial Ruling on Evidence:

  • Mark Gargos explains the judge’s rationale for excluding certain evidence from the Mangioni state trial—chiefly a manifesto and hit list found in Mangioni’s backpack, suppressed on constitutional grounds.
    • “I think the judge was absolutely right in his decision excluding it. But what he has left to come in is still an uphill battle for the defense.” (Mark Gargos, 01:43)
  • Matt Murphy discusses the tension between federal and state proceedings, noting that suppression at the state level won’t necessarily carry over federally:
    • "Would the federal judge be bound somehow by the state’s ruling? ... Absolutely not." (Matt Murphy, 04:44)

• Luigi’s Online Fanbase – Legal and Cultural Repercussions:

  • Both are deeply unsettled by Mangioni's post-crime celebrity status—people getting tattoos, crowds outside court, and a “cheering squad” for an alleged murderer.
    • “These people that are out there getting Luigi Mangioni tattoos, and this is a murder of a father of two… Who’s next on the kill list?” (Matt Murphy, 04:49)
  • Gargos notes this creates “stealth juror” risks, now a prosecutorial concern:
    • "Normally the worry about what I call stealth jurors… is a great worry by the defense. In this case, it’s the prosecution who has to be deathly afraid.” (Mark Gargos, 07:06)
  • Murphy worries about the impact of the crowd on juries and how old systems aren’t designed for social media-era cases.

• Jury Selection Challenges:

  • Deep dive on tactics to root out stealth jurors, including reading body language, casual talk (“the cry of the loon”), and the perennial challenge of selecting a fair panel in high-profile, high-emotion environments.

Notable Quotes

• “Murder is never the answer, guys. It’s just not.” (Matt Murphy, 06:33)
• “If I’m a prosecutor in this case, that gives me great pause… all it takes is one.” (Mark Gargos, 07:06)
• “Our system was designed long before television, let alone social media.” (Matt Murphy, 10:05)

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2. Palisades Arsonist – Suppressed Evidence and City Negligence

[15:39-22:07]

• The Defendant’s Obsession:

  • The accused arsonist is a Luigi superfan, with an alleged class-warfare ideology and disturbing AI (ChatGPT) use. Judge suppressed evidence about his AI conversations/creations.

• Legal Battle Over City’s Role:

  • The defense attempted to blame city officials for failing to let fire crews fully extinguish smoldering roots, which reignited and caused massive destruction.
  • Mark explains why “contributory negligence” is not a valid defense in criminal law—unlike civil cases, you can’t legally argue the victims or city were partially at fault.

• Trauma and Victim Impact:

  • Matt shares the personal heartache as families (including friends of his) lost homes and relatives; Mark relays stories of children re-traumatized by subsequent fires.

Notable Quotes

• “There’s a concept in the law that contributory negligence is not a defense to criminal cases.” (Matt Murphy, 17:35)
• “It’s fundamentally an unbelievable story as to what— the complete and utter failure of the leadership in the city.” (Mark Gargos, 17:57)

---

3. No Body, No Case? Yacht Murders and Forensic Tactics at Sea

Guests: Det. Dave Byington
[24:12-50:19]

Tom and Jackie Hawks Case Retrospective

• Dave Byington is lauded for his hands-on role in the infamous Newport Beach “no body” murder case, providing colorful behind-the-scenes stories about the investigation, the difficulties of prosecutions without a body, and the importance of gathering physical and forensic evidence.
• Humorous stories about prosecution-defense banter, Valentine’s pranks, and living through lengthy, grueling murder trials together.

Brian Hooker Bahamas Case – Husband’s Suspicious Story

• The disappearance of Lynette Hooker eerily echoes the Hawks case.
• Dave gives a detective’s breakdown of why the “accidental overboard” story doesn’t add up:
  • The husband claims his wife fell into the water with the boat’s engine kill-switch lanyard and was swept away; he spent eight hours futilely paddling for help. Dave is highly skeptical:
    • “The story stank on ice… If my loved one goes overboard, and I can’t start the boat, I’m paddling like a mad monkey…” (Dave Byington, 35:05)

Forensics on Water – Can You Find a Body?

• The team explains that in shallow, warm, protected waters, bodies tend to surface due to bloating, unlike in the deep Pacific where sea creatures can quickly consume remains.
• Mark discusses using marine biology experts to track decomposition and movement in water (“They surmise from whether the barnacles have attached…” 42:39), and the utility of GPS and satellite data for tracking vessel movements.

Domestic Violence and “No Body” Statistics

• Dave and Mark both estimate that the majority (up to 75%) of murder cases they’ve seen are domestic, not stranger or random violence.
• Mark notes exceptions for his own caseload (many police or gang cases) but generally concurs with the trend.

Notable Quotes

• “If our loved one goes missing, I’m paddling like an Olympian until I’m unable to paddle anymore. Not just showing up eight hours later…” (Dave Byington, 41:19)
• “There’s an entire ecosystem on the bottom that’s designed by nature to process big mammals…” (Matt Murphy, 43:41)

---

Memorable/Must-Listen Moments — With Timestamps

• [04:49] Matt Murphy on Luigi fanbase: “Who’s next on the kill list? … It’s like the reign of Robespierre.”
• [07:06] Mark Gargos on stealth jurors: “All it takes is one … a stealth juror could end up hanging this case.”
• [20:35] Discussion about AI in criminal evidence and the arsonist’s bond with a chatbot—a timely technological challenge.
• [28:34] Gallows humor and “no body” murder prosecutions: personal stories reflecting the psychological toll and camaraderie among investigators.
• [31:35] Dave Byington’s wry analysis: “The story stank on ice.”
• [41:19] Dave’s “mad monkey” quote on what any normal person would do if a loved one went overboard.
• [43:41] Matt’s vivid explanation of ocean decomposition and how different waters affect evidence recovery.
• [49:47] Conversation wraps with genuine mutual respect and a promise to bring Dave back as the “honorary PI.”

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Tone & Style

• Conversational, irreverent, analytical—often darkly humorous, with real-world wisdom from decades in criminal law and homicide investigation.
• Quotes highlight the blend of sarcasm, frankness, and expertise at play.

---

Conclusion

This episode is a masterclass in how modern legal systems struggle with old laws in the era of viral notoriety, AI, and high-tech evidence. It peels back the curtain on courtroom strategy, the intense emotional cost of true crime work, and the strange new world where criminals gain celebrity followings.

Whether you’re interested in criminal law, fascinated by high-profile murder cases, or just love smart talk from real experts, this episode is not to be missed.

Transcript

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[Matt Murphy]

Welcome to in the well I'm Matt Murphy, former homicide prosecutor and I'm joined by my good friend and co host Mark Gargos, criminal defense attorney to the stars. Today on the show we're going to get into the judge's ruling on the critical evidence in the Luigi Mangioni case. The Palisade arsonist's fixation with Luigi and later we will be joined by my friend and Newport beach detective Dave Byington to dig into the Nobody case. We work together and also the Brian Hooker case and some of the parallels with that. But first Mark, let's talk with about Luigi. What's your take on the judge's ruling on the evidence this week?

[Mark Gargos]

By all accounts, I don't practice in state court in New York but by all accounts, reading the law, I think the judge was spot on. It's an interesting ruling. I, I still think that the big fight here is state versus federal. They still have a, an analog to what we used to have in California which is a once in jeopardy from another jurisdiction. I think the big battle here is who goes first because then if it's the feds go first and they don't get a or they get a conviction on a lesser I think that's going to bar the New York state prosecution. The difference in the federal and state at least on this inevitable discovery. The way I read the law is that the federal it would have come in or it will come in the stuff that's been suppressed on the state side. I think the judge was absolutely right in his decision Excluding it. But the stuff that he has left to come in is still an uphill battle for the defense. But you know, one of the things, Matt, that the specter of this case is Luigi's got a constituency, he's got a demographic that is supportive of him, and that's not. As a prosecutor, you normally don't face that. And as a defense lawyer, it's very rare. Except if you've got somebody who's high profile or famous and you do get a presumption of innocence. If somebody's famous, not so much that they're infamous. This, this guy was neither beforehand, but he is that kind of unicorn or anomaly where he's got people who are very supportive. And there you're looking, if you're watching this, Karen Agnifolo, Mark, her husband, Mark Agnifolo and Jacob Kaplan. Mark and Jacob are coming off along with this spectacular female defense lawyer in New York, a resounding unexpected victory in Harvey Weinstein, nine to three for acquittal.

[Matt Murphy]

Yeah, this is, it raises an interesting legal issue, right. Because suppression motions are based on the federal constitution on what is reasonable and not reasonable. So normally a federal case would proceed sort of on its own with its own elements, but this, in effect, a state suppression hearing is kind of a finding of federal law. So it will, that is an interesting appellate issue because if the, if these items in the backpack are suppressed in the state case, it, it has a really interesting legal implication on the federal case. Would the federal judge be bound somehow by the state's ruling? I, I know what every federal judge in America would say to that. Not to, Absolutely not. But it raises some.

[Mark Gargos]

The mother of the federal judge has not been born who's going to agree with that proposition.

[Matt Murphy]

Right, right. And so it's, this is, it's a really, it's, it's a technically very interesting thing. Of course, his backpack is filled with. There was a manifesto in there, including, I think, a hit list of other people he wanted to kill. So there's, there's some really, some really damning evidence that the court found not to be admissible. But you're right, they also left the court's ruling still allowed for, I think, I mean, you know, I, I read the list of the things that are still coming in. And as a prosecutor, I've, I've, I've convicted people of murder with far less evidence that still remains on the Luigi Mangiani case. But also, it is interesting, right. On a whole different, whole different bunch of levels. Number one, this cheering, like fan Crowd stuff is. I think it's relatively new to American society, and I think a lot of it's driven by social media. But, man, it is disturbing to me, Mark, I gotta tell you, like, these people that are out there getting Luigi Mangione tattoos, and this is a murder of a father of two. And I'll tell you, like, our healthcare system is a mess. I pay over $2,000 a month, and there's nothing wrong with me. I'm totally healthy. 2000 bucks a month just for me. There are issues with that. And it's impossible to get an appointment in California. I've gone over, Mark, to some of these concierge doctors that don't even take insurance just so I can go in and get a prescription filled. So everybody agrees it's a mess, but, you know, it begs the question for these people that are out there with their fricking signs and their photos of them. Who's next on the kill list? You know, because if it's okay to kill Brian Thompson, who else? In our. In our hatred of corporate America and all the rest of that bullshit that we keep hearing. Sorry, like, who. Who dies next on the list? You know what I mean? It's like. It's like the reign of Robespierre. Like, the guy. The guy was guillotined. I think he had a list of the next people that he wanted to execute. You know, who's next? And where does that stop? And it's. It's. Murder is never the answer, guys. It's just not. I don't know. What are your thoughts?

[Mark Gargos]

I look at it in a more clinical way in that normally the worry about what I call stealth jurors, somebody who is trying to get onto a jury because they've got an agenda, so to speak. That's my definition. That's normally a great worry by the defense. In this case, it's the prosecution who has to be deathly afraid, because normally in a case like this, you would. You'd have nobody who was in a constituency or had the belief system that, you know, he deserved it or something like that. If I'm a prosecutor in this case, that. That gives me great pause because I. I remember I've unmasked stealth jurors repeatedly over the years. Just usually, hopefully my investigator is the one who's done the homework so that I know if somebody is not being completely frank or truthful. But this. This is something that I think the prosecutors involved, whether it's the state or federal, are going to have to contend with, because in A criminal case, as you know better than anybody, Matt, all it takes is one. And this is one of those cases where a stealth juror could end up hanging this case.

[Matt Murphy]

Yeah. Isn't that the truth? And I'll tell you why. There may be nobody better at that than you, Mark, honestly, Like the. The ability. And it's not even about investigating them, you know, behind the scenes. It's just that gut when they bring the juror in, right? And that's. That's what we train as, as trial lawyers. They. They walk them up. And some of the things you look for, right, are like, how are they responding to the other jurors? What clothes are they wearing? What book are they reading for their jury duty? You know, how are they dressed? Are they laughing at the judge's jokes? All of that stuff. And you develop that. That. That vibe. And you've been doing this longer than me, and that is like trusting your gut on that is paramount. And it's picking out those stealth jurors. And a lot of times, look on cases without any media, that's still the process, right, is trying to figure out my. My buddy Bruce Moore, who I know, you know, he used to call it the cry of the loon. If you can get him talking and you can hear the crazy juror that's spotting the cry of the loon. And on this one, man, imagine if you're on jury duty and you show up, you know, you. You think you might get a civil case or some sort of car accident, and you wind up drawing the Luigi Mangioni case, and it's going to be a long trial, and you show up every day and you got to walk through this crowd. Sorry. Of these fricking lunatics with their. With all their bullshit. I don't know if that. I don't know if that's. And as me, I know as a juror, when I show up, to be fair, and I'm taking time out of my life and my job to go do that, I would probably resent somebody in the hallway yelling at me or making noises or on the courthouse steps. You know, I. But I don't know. I think everybody might be a little different on that. And, you know, sometimes those crowds can be kind of intimidating. And also, it's. Of course, it's evidence that isn't received, you know, during the proper course of a. Of a trial. If they're walking around with photos or whatever bullshit they have. I don't know, it's. I don't know what the answer of that Is John or that Mark. It's like we've got this old system that's. That was designed long before television, let alone social media. And I don't know. I don't know how we deal with that. And, and sequestering juries is not the answer, in my opinion. That's. That's more. Usually more of a disaster. And I can't imagine it actually works with cell phones in everybody's pockets anyway. But. Yeah. What do you think about that?

[Mark Gargos]

One of the interesting things is you're old enough to remember when California, at the behest of the District Attorneys association, eliminated attorney Voir Dyer in criminal cases. So instead of you as the prosecutor or me as a defense lawyer talking to the jurors, the judge did it. And it was very truncated towards 20 or 30 minutes. And that lasted. That law was passed and it lasted about, I want to say, 18 to 20 months maybe. And do you know who carried an emergency bill to repeal that? The same District Attorneys association. You know why there was a sudden spike in hung juries? Because prosecutors could not talk to jurors. They couldn't ask the questions, and they were. All of a sudden, jurors were getting on and they couldn't suss out, so to speak, who was with them and who might have been a, you know, to use a prosecutorial expression, who was a wing nut. And I will tell you it. There is a 6 sense that you get. When I was in New York, even though the. I mean, and if you know people, when I was in New York, I was. Watched that jury come in before the closing that Tenny and Mark tried the, The Weinstein jury, along with Jacob. And I texted her immediately upon seeing them, and I said, I love this jury. This is. They're tilting your way. I could just tell by the way they looked. And, and when they were deliberating, I told her, this is clearly a 9 to 3. I. I watched how they reacted. They. New York's got an interesting thing that the state court does that you may be surprised about in New York. I don't know if you knew this. I. It took me forever. They don't have an opening. Closing by the prosecutor. The defense gets up and does the closing and then the prosecutor goes last. I mean, if I'm the defense lawyer, I kind of like that. I don't have to.

[Matt Murphy]

Of course, yeah. I don't have to see one shot.

[Dave Byington]

Right?

[Mark Gargos]

Exactly. I don't have to endure listening to the. The prosecutor and moving me off of my, My game, so to speak. I say, I think that's one of the great advantages for trying cases in New York.

[Matt Murphy]

Well, the California District Attorneys association, which I belong to for decades, I have been really disappointed in the last couple years at how, sorry, how feckless they've been. They allowed that compassionate release law to kick in that permits sex offenders, even the most violent, the craziest, the gnarliest ones, to get parole hearings now, and that we should probably do another show on that. I've just, I've never been that impressed with that organization, even though I was a part of it for so long. But, yeah, it's true. Can you imagine standing up? How many times have you done that where you got a juror who looks great, sounds great, is responding well to your opponent, and then as soon as you stand up, you get a horrible vibe and you realize they just hate you. And then it happens and you get to. You got to dump those. But if you can't talk to them, and I don't know who, I don't know whose genius idea it was to eliminate that, you know, attorney vor dire from the freaking cdaa, but I can tell you they haven't tried any freaking cases because you would know instantly that's a bad idea. You know, that's, that's, that's the thing. There's so many bad ideas in California.

[Mark Gargos]

I, I used to just chuckle about that. I also thought it was funny. If you're fighting about money over in the civil court, you can sit there as a lawyer and do vo dire forever. It's one of the things I love about trying civil cases. But God forbid, you're fighting over liberty and everybody wants to truncate how much you get 30 seconds on each person.

[Matt Murphy]

Yeah, let's rush through that. Right? And imagine if you're sitting there in the defendant's seat and it's like your lawyer came and asked them questions. You didn't start a business just to keep the lights on. You're here to sell more today than yesterday. You're here to win. Lucky for you, Shopify built the best converting checkout on the planet. Like the just one tapping ridiculously fast, acting sky high sales stacking champion at checkouts. That's the good stuff right there. So if your business is in it to win it, win with Shopify. Start your free trial [e-mail] win at

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[Matt Murphy]

That's insane. But let's shift gears into this Palisades guy. Well, we got a few minutes. So one of Luigi Mangioni's biggest fans is this guy who has been charged with setting the Palisades fire. And look at this. Look at this guy. So here's a. This guy is a. Is a class crusader who worshiped Luigi Mangione, who wanted to kill billionaires, allegedly. And again, he's presumed innocent, but he apparently lit this fire. And what's interesting here, there's a. The judge ruled. The defense wanted to basically say, and for the viewer, what happened was this guy's charged with lighting fires. And there's a whole root system of the California Chaparral, where the fire was initially put out, but it continued to smolder underground. And there were all these complaints by residents saying it's still smoking. And there were some firemen who wanted to get out there and they understood what was going on and extinguish it. And they got shut down by their command, allegedly. But there's been testimony about this in some of the civil cases. They were told they couldn't do it. They didn't have the time, they didn't have the budget or whatever, bs. And so the fire erupted again, and that's what caused the Palisades fire. So what the defense wanted to do, and I think this is interesting for us to explain to our viewers, Mark, what the defense wanted to do is they wanted to introduce the criminal negligence. And they were right. Criminal negligence of the city and of the leadership of Los Angeles in not allowing the fire to be properly extinguished or all of those are legitimate claims in a civil context. They want to run with that as a defense. But there's a concept in the law that contributory negligence is not a defense to criminal cases. So if you've got, like, if you've got a drunk guy walking across the street who gets hit by a drunk guy driving a car, and the drunk guy driving the car wants to wait a second. He walked out in front of my car. That's not a defense. And Mark, I know you've dealt with that probably a thousand times, like, I

[Mark Gargos]

have to say, becomes a battleground in, in so many criminal cases. But to, to the point, to your point, in a civil context, that's fair game. I mean I've got, I've got cases like that. I know the people who are, have filed cases like that. When you see some of the testimony sw. And when I say testimony, they did an after action report. They took sworn testimony and under oath they also have interviewed a lot of the fire personnel and it's, it's fundamentally a, an unbelievable story as to what the complete and utter failure of the leadership in the city. And you know, at first they were trying to blame the fire department and you read the after action report and even some of the earlier drafts and boy, are they off base there. It was the fire department.

[Matt Murphy]

They wanted to go in. They wanted to go in. And I know and, and I know we're both. Look you, fortunately you're, you live sort of more on the east side. I, I lived in the Casamar section of the Palisades when I was in high school. I got, I got, my dad kicked me out. Irish father, Irish son. I got kicked out a couple times. And the, the family that I live with was, that took me in. They're beautiful people named Donna and Art Maffe and they live in the Castlemar section. I lived in their house and they were wonderful, wonderful people. And that whole neighborhood burned down and they had to move them out and they were in their 90s and you know, they lived in their house for I think 64 years. And when you do that, you know, in your 90s, that's so traumatic that even though they weren't listed as I believe 12 people died in the fire, they each died within six months. Mark. You know, it's one of those things that the family very much blames the incompetence of the city for the, for the death. And they were, they were old, they lived full life, but still, you know, the acceleration of death, I'll give you

[Mark Gargos]

the counterpoint to that. I talked to a mother this morning who has a couple of kids and she and her girlfriend were talking about this most recent wildfire in Los Angeles up by Simi and they had, they, their house had burned down in the Palisades. They had moved out to close to see me. And the trauma by these 8 and 10 year old kids, once again it reignited, pun intended, the same kind of trauma. Again, it's, it's awful.

[Matt Murphy]

It's awful and it's awful, but I, I couldn't agree more. And it's an interesting thing, right? Like from a defense perspective, you've got A. You got some, some client who allegedly did this and he. I don't know enough about the case to, to say definitively, but you talk about a loon. The guy looks like a loon.

[Mark Gargos]

I was going to say, I know enough about the case or having done this long enough that I think you or I could take one look and understand that at least if this were on the state side, we'd be invoking 1368 on the federal.

[Matt Murphy]

Almost certainly. Yep. And for those, for the viewer, 1368 is when the defense lawyer declares a doubt as to the mental competency of their client. And I don't know what this guy's mental history is, but apparently he's just got. There's a suppression motion in that case as well. A federal judge, he was doing chat GBT breakdowns. It's interesting, Mark, they. They said that he had an unhealthy relationship with a bot on chat gbt, almost like that movie her, right? Where he's got this whole relationship going with an, with an IA and boy, we're just scratching the surface of that, but apparently he was, he was having IA create like images showing the fires and the judge suppressed all those. I don't think those are necessary for the prosecution in this. But. But it is. We are, we are in. We are in the future. When we look at this case, you've got this bizarre Manioni love and you know, this class warfare that so many people want to seem, it seems trendy at the, at the time. And this guy, you know, lit fire to a neighborhood. You have the incompetence of the city, which I couldn't agree with you more, Mark. It's. It is shocking the way Los Angeles and the authorities handle that, in my opinion. And then, and then you've got this overlay of the legal system where intuitively you would think that that would be able to work in some way in a defense. But. And it goes back a couple hundred years, contributory negligence is just not a defense in. No matter how criminal it is, it's not a defense in a criminal case. So it's, it's really interesting stuff.

[Mark Gargos]

It's fascinating from a clinical legal standpoint, but boy, is it heartbreaking just from the humanity of it.

[Matt Murphy]

Oh yeah. And I mean, we, I, look, I. Our whole city, I think, was traumatized by that. My buddy Sean, who I take all the surf trips with, he lost his house, his house, his mother's house and his mother in law's house all in, in one day, you know, and they're still, you know, they, they still haven't been able to rebuild because the permitting process is so slow. But anyway, more to come on on those cases as well. Next, my friend and Newport Beach Detective Sergeant Dave Byington, now retired. He will join us and talk about the Tom and Jackie Hawks case and its parallels to the disappearance of Lynette Hooker and the suspicions surrounding Brian Hooker. Please stay tuned. Look at him eating whatever he wants, never gaining a pound while I'm stuck with the boring special and can't lose an ounce.

[Dave Byington]

How's your lunch, man?

[Matt Murphy]

Amazing.

[Mark Gargos]

Yours? So.

[Matt Murphy]

Oh, I'm so happy for you. Cool, buddy.

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No, definitely.

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[Matt Murphy]

Tennessee 2012.

[Mark Gargos]

And welcome back to in the well and Matt Murphy has got a very special friend that has joined us today. Matt.

[Matt Murphy]

Yeah, so I'm, I'm really excited about this, Mark. I'm excited for you to meet Dave and also I'm excited to introduce Dave to our whole family fan base. Dave Byington is one of one, as they say. Dave was my lead investigator on the Tom and Jackie Hawks murder trial and that that took three different trials. We, we prosecuted three different people separately and Dave and I spent I don't know what about 10 quality years sitting next to each other. Right. Dave, between the investigation and the, in the final day from are they.

[Mark Gargos]

That's where the gra. Where Dave, were you the bureau or were you at an agency?

[Dave Byington]

No, I was at Newport Beach Police Department. So yeah.

[Mark Gargos]

Who were the judges you tried the cases in front of?

[Matt Murphy]

We had Frank Fassel for all three. Oh, remember Fassel? Yep.

[Mark Gargos]

Is we. How come we've never talked about Frank Fassel, Matt?

[Matt Murphy]

I don't know. He, I, I love that guy. So Frank Fassel, for the viewer, he was the. He came over from LA county, so of course, course, you know, Mark, I never even thought about that. He. He got assigned to juvenile.

[Mark Gargos]

Not only knew him, in 2005, I spent three months in his courtroom trying a case. And one of the best trial judges after, by the way, he was the guy who osc'd me Ray contempt because he thought I had too many cases and into his courtroom.

[Matt Murphy]

And that. That's him. He's no nonsense, but truly one of the finest judicial officers that's ever, Ever had a. In, in. In the. The state of California. He was the. He was the central judge in juvenile, so they started him out in juvie when we were all starting, and then I got assigned to him when I was on the felony panel. And then I wound up. He wound up being the trial judge in one of the most notorious cases in California history, the murder of Tom and Jackie Hawks, where Dave was my lead. And there's so many stories. We got to have Dave back probably to tell some of those, but. And all with players that you would know, Mark. The last guy was a guy named John Fitzgerald Kennedy, the third in the trio in the conspiracy. And we tried it against Kevin McKesson, who's a good guy, and Chuck Lindner, who you probably know really well. Kevin was famously one of Johnny Cochran's law partners and, and Lindner, wheelchair and all, was one part of the dream team. And Dave and I, Lindner, for fun

[Mark Gargos]

fact, Lindner's the one if you talk to Chuck, will tell you if the gloves don't fit, you must acquit.

[Matt Murphy]

He said. Right. He. And he told us that. You know why Dave and I know that? Because he told us that probably every single day for three months in that last trial, you know, I used to have.

[Mark Gargos]

We used to have a joke in the office that the over and under was four minutes from when you talked to Chuck till he mentions that in the over under four minutes.

[Matt Murphy]

It sounds about right. It sounds about right.

[Mark Gargos]

Twelve minutes would be the over under on how long he'd tell you about getting into it at the state prison when he went through and had to unscrew his prosthetic leg. How many times did you hear that?

[Matt Murphy]

Oh, about. About a thousand. Yeah. And. And yeah, I mean, there's so. There's so much there. But Dave, Dave and I, on kind of a quick, funny side note, just to give you an idea, we spent so much time together on that case, I'd never met Dave before for actually no, that's not true. I met. Dave was the. Dave was the investigator. He was the sergeant in charge of my very first murder scene in Newport when I went. And Dave, for those who've read my book, Dave was the guy who brought me in when the team was eating pizza in the corner of a room that's already been forensically processed. And he's the guy that moved the very first body. And Mark, he. This guy had. He had, you know, he was shot like seven times. And they lift up the shoulder and, you know, this. Marco, most people don't. Dave lifts up the shoulder to show me bullet holes in the kitchen floor. And the guy groaned and it was like, oh, this guy. Are we sure he's dead? And then Dave goes, yeah, she pretty much stapled him to the kitchen floor. That is Dave Byington.

[Mark Gargos]

But so it's surprising with Matt. You know what I always teased Matt about when he was still in the office is when he. I would say, what are you in trial on? And he would say, this case. And I say, let me guess, there's no body. Because Matt was the master of no body cases. And I thought one or two of those came out of Newport, so. Would that have been you?

[Matt Murphy]

Yep. Yeah, sure was. And yeah. And Dave, that. Dave, just so you know, I don't know if I've ever told your story. When I was walking in the day that we were doing the side scan sonar looking for the hawks. We've shared this with the viewers before. Mark was walking out of the courthouse as I was walking in, and he stopped. And Mark and I had known each other for years. He's. And it was. That was when it was like the big case of the, of the, of the week for the whole country. And he goes, hey, quick question. You guys doing side scan sauna looking for the body? Nobody in the world knew we were doing that, of course. And he goes, you're not going to find the body. They tried the same thing with Lacy Peterson. They didn't recover anything. You won't find the bodies. And words, the effect of don't let that stop you guys. And I always thought that was so cool. And unbeknownst to everybody else in the whole world, we. We were out there that day, not me, but you guys. And they broke Mark and they broke the side scan sonar that we were using with the Navy, my guys from Newport, including Dave. But Dave and I got so close over the years that the running joke was that was that we were in love with each other. And it wasn't it wasn't wrong. And, and they got crazy that I was being, I thought I was being really funny. One time, Mark, we were in trials, like I can't remember which trial, and it was on Valentine's Day and I decided I was going to buy, I was going to buy him chocolates, like one of those heart shaped things of chocolates. And I walked into the, into our, into the office that they had us in, they carved out for us in Central Court. And I, I thought I was being really funny. And I walk in and Dave had flowers for me and balloons all over the inside of the office. And that was the, that was the running joke for years and years. And then, and then we're doing these interviews afterwards and I don't know if you know who Melissa McCarty is. She's a true crime journalist. She is a beautiful woman and a good friend of mine, but I met her through this case and they'd flown Dave down, they'd flown Dave down from Washington State. And he comes into the law library where I was sitting in the chair being interviewed. And Melissa is a classically beautiful woman. She's been a reporter, a professional journalist her entire life. And Dave walks into the room and her back is to the door. And he walks in and he stops and he smiles and he gives kind of this coy look and she's. And he holds his arms out, he walks up to give a hug and she stands up, she goes. And she'd never met him, but she talked him on the phone. She goes, oh, I guess, I guess we hug. And he looks at her with this look of absolute disgust. And he goes, not you. And he comes over and kisses me on the lips. And that's Dave Byington. So, so just to give everybody a little bit of background. Dave Byington.

[Dave Byington]

I'm proud. Matt.

[Matt Murphy]

Dave by is, is the lead investigator of one of, of a case involving Tom Jacky Hocks, which of course happened on a boat. So I thought what a great opportunity to bring somebody in and we can talk about this Brian Hooker case out of the Bahamas because there's almost nobody else whose opinion I would rather get on that than Dave B. In fact, there is nobody else that I'd rather have kind of inform you and me and the readers. And I thought, Mark, you probably have some really good questions for Dave and his thoughts on that. I know I do. So if, if we could shift gears into that case. Dave, had you, have you, have you been following this thing? This is a guy famously, who, you know, it's Sort of the latest yacht murder. He had a history of his wife and looks like the. The Coast Guard last week seized the boat and they're processing it. So I was going to kind of throw it over to you and see what. See what you think. There's a picture of. Of Brian Hooker, the. I guess we can call him a suspect without offending too many people. What do you think?

[Dave Byington]

You know, I'm Matt, obviously, the parallels with the hawks. Glenn, missing at sea. And we now we have a no body. As far as I know, they still have recovered Lynette, his wife's body. So it kind of drew my attention right away and just hearing the brief description of how this occurred. And I think I'm getting a little jaded down my old age. But it's just. I immediately said, well, you're right, the suspect should be the husband. Just the sword. The story stank on ice. I mean, granted, they were at a bar allegedly drinking together, and they hadn't been drinking. They had been off the sauce for a while. So they're. They're. The story is that they get on a dinghy to return back to their yacht, which is moored in the harbor. And it's a. It's a close harbor. It's not like maybe a quarter mile would be the furthest distance that you moor off of this thing. So they jump on a dinghy and head back out to their home. Basically, the yacht and weather picks up or weather's bad. And the story is that from the husband that his wife, Lynette, somehow is gets tossed overboard with the wrist lanyard, which has a kill switch on it, and the keys to the vessel. And during the rush, she's now wearing a PFD safety device. So he allegedly throws her a throw. A throw life preserver. It's unclear whether she caught it or not. And due to the fact that he's claiming that she lost or when she went overboard, she took the kill switch. And the kill switch is basically on any of your smaller boats, it's a. It's a safety feature. So if you get off a jet ski, they have them too. So if you happen to fall or get separated from the vessel, as soon as the. Which is around your wrist, basically that kill switch gets removed, the engine dies. So that's supposed to be a safety feature. So if you get knocked overboard, the boat doesn't take off, you can get back on the boat. At least that's the thought process. So husband says that mama's got it around her wrist. The seas are so rough that she gets ejected from the boat and that as soon as she does that, the engine stops and the wind and waves sweep her away in such a quick fashion that he's unable to do anything because he can't start the boat. So he throws her a throwable PFD device, which is like a pad you sit on and that's the last she saw of her.

[Matt Murphy]

That's his story, right?

[Dave Byington]

Yeah, it's.

[Matt Murphy]

It.

[Dave Byington]

There's so many questions on that. Like you said, if my loved one, your loved one gets ejected off the boat in that scenario and you can't start the boat, you have paddles. So I'd start paddling like a mad monkey trying to get to my loved one. I sure as hell wouldn't give up. His story is that she got pushed away by the wind and waves so quickly that he was able to help her and that over the next eight, eight and a half hours he was allegedly paddling, trying to get back to shore so he could summon help to help search for his wife. That's eight hours. That's a full workday or I don't care how bad. Go ahead. I'm sorry, Councilor.

[Mark Gargos]

250 yards, you said, from the shore to the yacht.

[Dave Byington]

I'm unclear. I know it's a close in harbor, so it's not like a massive harbor where you'd be miles away. It's protected. It's why it is a harbor. And you have other. And the other thing is you have other vessels that are moored there. So he might not be able to make it to shore because of the weather, let's say. But he has other vessels he could probably kind of maneuver towards and hitch onto or another mooring. And that would go the same for his wife. If she's going off somewhere, is just not shoreline, she's going to go off into the. The distance. She's going to hopefully grab on to. To something to save her life if she's in fact drowning.

[Mark Gargos]

You know what? One of the things that always intrigued me about your case, my Peterson case, this case is we now have. And especially now, I mean, I don't know about when your case, but especially now we've got so many satellites that are in orbit. And I've always wondered, and I always thought in Peterson, I tried mightily to get some satellite images and see if I couldn't. Obviously back in 2004, 2003, it was not as robust as it is now. But you wonder if there isn't some way to get imaging that you could at least enhance to, to kind of test these things, which would answer a whole lot of questions like where did happen? When did it happen? And, you know, instead of trying to reverse engineer a story that sounds suspect to begin with. And by the way, the, every case I've ever had where it was a husband charged with a wife who was murdered, inevitably they're in the crosshairs and, and they didn't act right as normally where, where the police go first. I don't, you know, I don't know how to answer that, so to speak. But you would think if you had satellite imaging that that would solve a lot of this.

[Matt Murphy]

Yeah, I, I, it's an interesting idea, isn't it? You almost wonder if, if as technology continues to advance with Starlink and everything else, if we're, if we're going to enter a phase mark where we're going to be able to do that, like hit the rewind almost like a home security camera, right. And see what the satellites picked up in an area. And I, you know, I got my theories on this. I think that if it, if we could do that. And again, he's presumed innocent. You know, he hasn't been arrested yet. But man, I'll bet you we see that dinghy chugging out. They got back to the boat. We see that dinghy chugging out to deeper water and, and that's, that would explain that. Eight hours. So, Dave, we obviously learned a ton together about processing boats when a murder is suspected. What do you think the, the Coast Guard is doing now? They seized the boat, which is by itself kind of awesome. Apparently Brian Hooker hired one of these like, boat transport guys who we have no, no reason to suspect did anything wrong. But he hires these, these transport guys to get the boat out of the Bahamas and to take it back to Florida and, and apparently right out of the, right after they got out of the territorial waters of the Bahamas, the, the Coast Guard descended on them and seized the vessel. What do you think they're looking for on the boat, Dave?

[Dave Byington]

Sure, and it's funny to go back to the satellite imaging. I think that's even something that we tried to cover with the Hawks. I think at Matt's suggestion, we did. Yeah. Whether it was when the bodies were actually dumped out at sea or when they were still in harbor. And I think that unfortunately we were, we were hoping it was too much of a CSI effect where it makes for a good movie, but in reality, actually, if it was, if it was accessible, we were unable to get granite, but but we also.

[Matt Murphy]

Sorry not to interrupt, but we, We. It turns out we didn't need it because. Because you guys seized the, The GPS equipment on the boat, Mark. They got.

[Mark Gargos]

They.

[Matt Murphy]

They got everything. And when we downloaded that stuff, we had a whole, like, breadcrumb trail of GPS hits where the boat went out off the south side of Catalina. That's where we knew to look for the bodies. And Skyler's story all along was that they never left the harbor. So we kind of. The satellite thing, we would have been bitching not to use to. To California of a word. But very quickly, we didn't need it anymore because we had this. We had this satellite tracking thing, or not satellite, the gps, which of course is satellites, but we knew right where they were. Just. We just didn't have the. The visual images. So. I didn't mean to interrupt you, Dave.

[Dave Byington]

No, not at all. Not at all. And that the other thing was, I was truly interested in for the forensic capability if they seized, obviously the dinghy is something they'd want either to validate or negate his. His story where, you know, it appears more of a stage. You know, someone went overboard as opposed to a medical emergency, or they were drinking and had a slip and fall and knocked herself unconscious. And then maybe that's the reason she went overboard. But yeah, that. The forensic examination of not only the dinghy but of, like you said, their yacht, which luckily was seized by Coast Guard, and I think it's currently in their possession in Florida somewhere. So once again, they're not in a hurry. They can go take. Take that process as slow as they need to, but either to. To validate their. His story or to negate it, to come up and say, hey, look at this. This stinks on ice. You know, you're gone for eight and a half hours and you're allegedly paddling in circles, and it just. It didn't ring true. And it still doesn't in my mind. Like I said, if he's innocent, more power to him. But at first blush, if. If our loved one goes missing, I'm paddling like an Olympian until I'm unable to paddle anymore. Not just showing up eight hours later and say, hey, guess what? My wife's missing. And. And then after that, you know, just hiding out on his yacht doesn't appear to be helping with the search. People that do that in our. My mind, I'm sure is too Matt, is they already know the answers. You know, it's like O.J. looking for the killer.

[Matt Murphy]

Are you saying O.J. you think O.J. did it, Dave?

[Dave Byington]

Wild ass guess on my part.

[Matt Murphy]

Well, hey, you know the mark. You've had cases certainly where bodies have been dumped in water. Lacy Peterson was one of those. And you know, one of the things that's really intrigued me about the hooker case, and I kind of toss this to both you or either one that wants to answer it. Bodies will float if they're, if they're in shallow water or fresh water. Even these mob cases where they. I think there was one, a famous one where they attached a slot machine to some guy and with the internal bloating, even that guy came up with a slot machine. So any thoughts on that? This is supposedly an inside bay and kind of on the leeward side of an island. And apparently it's not even 10ft deep on a, on a high tide.

[Mark Gargos]

So one of the things, one of the things that a lot of prosecutors do, I don't know if you've done this yet, is they get people who are skilled experts on marine life and the growth of marine life, either on a body or on some, something that is connected to the body. And then they make all kinds of, they surmise from whether the barnacles have attached and whether or not the body and where the barnacles have actually attached on the body. For instance, they can tell you if a body was submerged or if it was partially in the air. And I've cross examined numerous people about that. And those are kind of telltale signs and part of your breadcrumb theory as to what actually happened in this case. You still don't have a body, so that kind of getting ahead of yourself until you find something.

[Matt Murphy]

Yeah, we had a, we, we had a real education on that, Dave and I both. There is in the Pacific Ocean, of course, this is different than a lake or a river or even a, a mangrove or even this thing, this area. They're in the Pacific Bahamas in the Pacific Ocean. There's an entire ecosystem on the bottom that's designed by nature to process big mammals like whales and seals and dolphins and those things, you know, they die naturally and sometimes not naturally, but they sink to the bottom. And there's an entire. It's like shift work. There's sharks that will come in and take big bites. And then it comes down to these tiny little creatures that eat the bones. And around the debris field around the Titanic, if, if you look at any of those videos, it's actually really interesting. There's all these shoes there on the bottom that are perfectly oriented. Old shoes from, from the the poor people that died on the Titanic that are still there because the leather doesn't, doesn't decompose. But the bodies were all consumed by this, by this assembly line of critters, basically. But I don't, I don't know if they, if they have the same thing in the shallow waters of the Bahamas. Bahamas. I would imagine a body would bloat

[Mark Gargos]

before anything interesting thing. And Dave, I don't know if you've got comments on that. Would you, as an investigator or wouldn't you as an investigator, then go to somebody who has an expertise on the tides and the movements of the tides? Because that's the first place I think I would go if I'm conducting the defense investigation.

[Dave Byington]

And I was taught by a good prosecutor that whatever the defense is going to ask have an answer for. And that's right. Get an expert to go out say, hey, how is marine life and activity at that depth and that temperature going to affect the body? If they're scavengers coming, sharks or barracuda or larger, they're going to move the body parts around. So even like in the hawks case, if they were weighted down with an anchor, we were told by experts then that we may find the anchor and we may find handcuffs. But depending on how the scavenging activity is and how far they've moved away, we may not ever find any part of a. Of the remains. And I think the same thing goes for the hummus. Even in warm water like that, even though it's protected. Like Matt said, the marine life, it's the natural cycle down there. They're going to process through there. And now we're talking, you know, several weeks since she's been missing. So if she got lodged somewhere in some type of a geographical feature where she was then able to escape, and the marine life there is going at it. I moved to Washington state and talked to a bunch of crabbers up here and some of the homicide detectives, and that was one of the way that they were getting rid of bodies up here is they would put them in crab pots and the crabs would make quick work of any of the remains that were put in there. There would be nothing left. Even the bones would go through the pot. So they have, it has the ability down there, all the animals to go through it. And the longer that her remains are not recovered, that's more of a possibility that's going to make them more difficult to find, find her.

[Matt Murphy]

So what do you think, Dave? Just give us a ballpark. And I'm sure The FBI has stats on this. Of all the murders that you worked over the years, including the many we work together. What percentage of murder cases? And I'll ask you the same question as soon as Dave's done, Mark, what percentage of murder cases are domestic violence? Would you say? Just ballpark in your experience what would like.

[Dave Byington]

I say my experiences, I was smaller agencies and it was all of them, you know, a majority of them, it was very few that were stranger or robbery. There were a few, but a majority minutes. Like I said, it's investigation 101. We're going to look for who's closest husband, wife, boyfriend, girlfriend. And we're going to look at them and look at them hard because that's kind of where in the past our experience has taken us that, you know, these things can happen, but it's rare that they don't know that who their attacker is. That's the rarity or the outlier, I think.

[Matt Murphy]

Yeah. What do you think, Mark, of all the murders you've seen, ballpark idea. What, what, what percentage? Because for me it was. Had to be, had to be 75%. You know, we get those call outs in the middle of the night and it was always in somebody's kitchen and, you know, some husband or wife had finally had enough. What do you think?

[Mark Gargos]

I don't think I have an accurate demographic way to judge it because so many of my cases involve police shootings and so many of. And I've got a rich history. I tell a lot of stories about the number of females that I've defended who've ended up killing their husbands or their loved ones. I mean, I, I think I'm outsized that way or I tilt way too. I mean, I remember having. I think I've told you this story, Matt. I remember one time, the old Sybil Brand jail having four women charged with murder. And I inherited that from my father who had prosecuted as a DA a guy by the name of Lou Schindler for killing his first wife. Then when Lou Schindler got out of was paroled because back then you'd only do five to seven years for murder in California. His second wife, Laura ended up killing Lou. And my dad defended Laura in a published decision. So. Wow. Yeah, there's there to. I guess to answer. There is. Generally they are known to one another, but when you take a look at crime statistics, a lot of the gang activity for a certain period of time is stranger on stranger in the sense that it's outside of domestic violence. A lot of the police shootings are encounters with people with mental health issues. I mean, disproportionately, the mental health component of police shootings is off the charts, in my experience, at least.

[Matt Murphy]

Yeah. And, you know, the. It's, it's interesting, right? You're. And you're absolutely right. It goes both ways, including that first murder that Dave and I did together. That was a woman who killed her. Her boyfriend, who we think was trying to break up with her. But it's so. Dave, I am, I, I, we got to have you back as this case develops.

[Mark Gargos]

Dave, I'd love to talk to you again, even off the record, so to speak.

[Dave Byington]

Counselor, it's my honor meeting you. And I haven't heard someone say Sybil Brand in a long time. Used to ride my bike up as a kid.

[Mark Gargos]

I used to go up there. I mean, Cybil Brand, I mean, it was one of the. She was known as a great philanthropist, but her legacy, at least in my brain, is the most decrepit woman ale I've ever seen in my life.

[Dave Byington]

Couldn't agree with you more, Matt. It's great seeing your face again. I miss you, brother.

[Matt Murphy]

Likewise, Dave. Be safe up there, and we will definitely have you back. I, I feel like we didn't even get out of first gear yet on this one, but there's a lot more to come, and Mark and I have lots, lots more to talk about in the weeks and hopefully months and even years, years ahead. So we hope to have you back.

[Dave Byington]

Awesome, brother.

[Matt Murphy]

Appreciate you guys.

[Dave Byington]

Be safe.

[Mark Gargos]

Matt and I unearth a story from in the well coming up next. Although all of our stories seem to be in the well, but stay tuned and maybe we make Dave our honorary PI for the in the well.

[Matt Murphy]

I love that idea.

[Mark Gargos]

I love it, too. Thanks. We'll be right back.

[Matt Murphy]

Emoji moment from Mark, who writes, I

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[Matt Murphy]

Tennessee 2012. Here is my probably inappropriate in the well story since we just had Dave Buyington on in the heart of every professional detective, whether they are a woman or a man, their beats a 17 year old kid who can't resist a little I'm going to use the word Tom foolery every once in a while. And on the Tom and Jackie Hawks case, this is something that didn't make it into evidence, Mark and you'll understand why in just a second. There's a guy named Dave Moon and Dave and and Dave Bonton were really close and these are as we just met. Dave is the grizzled real deal. He'd seen it all. He'd seen, you know, he's one of those guys and so was Dave Moon. And you get a pretty, those guys, they get a pretty gallows sense of humor after a while. And when we serve the search warrant on Skyler and Jennifer's home in Long beach, they live with Jennifer's parents who were very very religious and it's a workingclass community, kind of a blue collar place in Long beach and you know, very quiet and nothing had ever happened there probably ever. So when we finally got the warrants on the Tom and Jackie Hawks murder case, as you can imagine Mark, we had probably 20 police cars and a million CSI vans and everything and they descend on this house and Skyler for lack of a better term was a bit of a weirdo and he had purchased this sex toy which was is right after the murder of John Jarvey. He murdered him, dumped him on the side of the road in Ensenada, came back and spent $900 buying this piston driven dildo machine. And I mean I it's you can't make this stuff up. So that my, my cops, Dave Moon and Dave Byington who you just met, they go and they do the search one they find the Hawks computers, they find this cornucopia of incredibly damning evidence all of which was obtained properly via search warrant. They followed the court's ruling to at since this case is still up on appeal but they also found this friggin Sex toy man. And so they, it has a, it has, it comes with attachment of your choice, right? And there is this wobbly gigantic thing dangling off the end of this. So what does Dave Moon do? And with all the police cars outside, every neighbor on this street is outside looking. And they've lived in this house for 20 years. And there's Jennifer De Leon's very deeply religious mother in the house. Dave Moon throws on a pair of latex gloves, grabs this thing by the business end and walks it down the driveway, flying, flopping around for every neighbor in the neighborhood to see. And I don't know what he could have done different because they're, they don't make CSI bags big enough. This thing was like the size of a friggin microwave. And he holds it with the business end, walks it right out there dangling, you know, bobbing around and loads it into the back of this evidence van. And Lana Henderson, Jennifer's mother, comes running out of the house and announces to the world, that's not mine. That's not mine. So anyway, tales of the true west as they say, or for today, that is a tale from the well, so anyway, I, I am so happy that Dave was able to join us. I'm so happy that you got to meet him, Mark. He is a classic guy. When I can lure him down to la, we got to get dinner together. And another funny story is I shared this off air. Dave Bynton was my lead investigator from Newport. And when we prosecute those cases, my DA investigator for the second two trials was a woman named Lisa Hunter. And they were each married at the time. Each of them wound up getting divorced along the way. Not related to this. They kept in touch, they wound up getting married. They are married today. I love them both. They were probably my favorite couple on the earth. I hope I don't get in trouble for saying that, but my only disappointment is I, I should have been the little ring bear, the little boy carrying the pillow down the aisle. And they had an eloping wedding where nobody got invited. They did one of those. So anyway, maybe they'll let me do it one day. So that's it.

[Mark Gargos]

Thanks. Thanks Matt. And thanks to our guests, Dave Bunnington. And thanks to you for tuning into the well and looking forward to seeing all of you at CrimeCon in Las Vegas. Vegas next weekend. Right Matt? So we'll be there next weekend.

[Matt Murphy]

Can't wait.

[Mark Gargos]

We're going to tape there. So see you then.

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Stop. This is Simplisafe. Police are on the way.

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[Matt Murphy]

Outdoor deterrence requires a Simplisafe Active Guard

[Dave Byington]

Outdoor Protection plan starting at 49 99amonth. Visit simplisafe. Com licenses for alarm license information.

[Matt Murphy]

Tennessee2012.