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MK True Crime
Menendez Brothers’ Next Move, "Unknown Number" and Case of Kendra Licari, Charlie Kirk Assassination
00:51:44
MK True Crime contributors Matt Murphy, Mark Geragos, and Dave Aronberg join the show to discuss the fallout from the Menendez brothers’ parole denial, their legal options now, the horrific assassination of Charlie Kirk, the importance of free speech and debate in America, final thoughts on Donna Adelson’s guilty verdict, the bizarre case of cyberbully mom Kendra Licari, the Netflix documentary about the case called “Unknown Number: The High School Catfish,” updates on the mysterious Burning Man homicide, and more. Matt Murphy: https://www.mattmurphylaw.com Mark Geragos: https://geragos.com Dave Aronberg: https://davearonberglaw.com Chapter: For free and unbiased Medicare help, dial 276-334-2273 or go to https://askchapter.org/kelly Birch Gold: Text MK to 989898 and get your free info kit on gold SelectQuote: Life insurance is never cheaper than it is today. Get the right life insurance for YOU, for LESS, and save more than fifty percent at https://selectquo...
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- [00:01]
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Matt Murphy
Welcome to MK True Crime. I'm Matt Murphy, your host for today. I'm a former homicide prosecutor and author of the Book of Murder, and here's what's on today's docket. My purpose in getting the guns was.
- [00:46]
Mark Gerrigos
To protect myself in case my father or my mother came at me to kill me. The defendant is guilty of first degree murder. Mrs. Adelson, control yourself. I found one phone number that kept coming up.
- [01:01]
Dave Ehrenberg
We gotta nail this son of a.
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Mark Gerrigos
I really didn't know what to say.
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Advertiser
This is disgusting.
- [01:06]
Mark Gerrigos
No way.
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Dave Ehrenberg
Crazy that someone that close could do something like that.
- [01:14]
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- [02:25]
Matt Murphy
The Menendez brothers were denied parole in late August. So what happens next? We'll give you a full recap. Donna Adelson was found guilty last week. On all counts. We'll share our final thoughts. And a teenage girl in Michigan was relentlessly cyberbullied for over a year. And the culprit shocked everyone. A new Netflix documentary has brought this case back into the spotlight and we will dive into it head first. I'm joined today by fellow MK True crime contributors. My old friend Mark Gerrigos, famed Mark. Famed criminal defense attorney, and Dave Ehrenberg, the former state attorney for Palm Beach County, Florida, and managing partner at Dave Ehrenberg Law, who will be joining us a little bit later. Let's start with Menendez. Okay, so, Mark, you represent these guys. What happened in the parole hearings?
- [03:18]
Mark Gerrigos
Well, first of all, I'm going to say you never complimented me like that when you were still working as a prosecutor.
- [03:24]
Matt Murphy
So for the viewers, just so you know, Mark and I go back, I don't want to say decades because it's embarrassing, but decades.
- [03:32]
Mark Gerrigos
It's true. It's decades. Back when you were in Orange County, California, you were the tough guy, kind of superstar Orange county prosecutor. I used to love to take cases solely. I mean, I almost advertised, I'll take any case with that. Murphy. I wanted to just go head to head with the best of the best. So.
- [03:51]
Matt Murphy
And the funny thing is, whenever Mark and I would finish a case, honestly, you'd walk out and go, and I would think to myself, if I'm ever in trouble, that's probably the guy that I would hire, especially if I did it. So just background wise, Mark and I go way, way back. So. So you got into this case, obviously a fascinating one, the whole world. I mean, this was the, the trial of the century before the actual trial of the century. Right. This is a huge case in la, and you represent them for their parole hearings. So walk us through that. And I should probably correct that you represented them. You got them. You got them parole hearings, first of all. So amazing legal work.
- [04:33]
Mark Gerrigos
You know, the. You as a California practitioner will know that there has been of a sea change in California. Back when you and I were doing battle down in Orange county in the 90s, that was back at the kind of high water mark of law and order in California, and that was lock them all up, build the prisons. And you might remember, Matt, that the DA who was in the fight of his life for his electoral career was Gil Garcetti. And against that backdrop, the first Menendez case was tried. Leslie Abra famously tried that and became kind of a pop culture phenomena and did a wonderful job. Got two hung juries with two separate juries, one for Eric, one for Lyall, and they split evenly between murder and manslaughter. The second in between on the retrial was, as you remember, the O.J. case. And that was what A lot of people call the trial of the century. I always consider the Menendez case trial one, the trial of the century, because it was televised. And that's what really kind of spawned the True Crime Network. But there was the not guilty in O.J. eight days after the not guilty, the second trial started. And boy, was that a different trial. They were tried together, they were tried in front of the same judge, but a lot of different rulings. They were convicted life without. Back then, I don't know about you, Matt, but I remember going years without doing a trial that didn't have a lifetop back in the 90s. It seemed like every case we were trying was a lifetop in California. They were there, as you mentioned, we got them re sentenced back in May. And now fast forward, they converted this kind of safety hearing into a parole hearing. And one of the best parole lawyers around, Heidi Rummel from usc, did their hearings. They were denied, but a minimum denial of three years, which means they're eligible again in a year. And now you're supposed to ask me as the host, pinch hitting, what's next for them? And I'll tell you what's next is they've got still have the clemency that's sitting on the governor's desk and we have an OSC Ray, the habeas which the judge issued, which we have briefed, and we're waiting on Judge Ryan to rule on that.
- [07:10]
Matt Murphy
Yeah. What are your thoughts on Newsom? I don't see him doing it with presidential ambitions that everybody's talking about. I think that this is still so controversial among a lot of people. I can't see him granting clemency. But what do you think? You're obviously a lot closer to this case than I am.
- [07:28]
Mark Gerrigos
You know, I, I just think that he has, he's gotten away. Mind you, in full disclosure, I've had my issues with Newsom, especially regarding parole blocks and with cases I've had, especially during COVID Having said that, he certainly has changed as of late. And I'm hopeful. Like I say, hope springs eternal. I'm hopeful that he takes a look at everything they've done and against the backdrop of these parole hearings. And when I say everything they've done, I've been down to that R.J. donovan prison, which is closer to your old haunt than to mine down in San Diego. I've seen that green space project. I've seen the hospice project. I've seen this, the guide dog service projects and all of that. I mean, it really is tremendous work and I don't know about you, but when I talk to correctional officers, which I do more frequently than probably most, they say they want this incentive for people who are incarcerated, who maybe have a life without, to have an incentive to make the right decision, which these guys did before they had any hope whatsoever. And I, I just, with some exceptions, don't find everybody to be irredeemable. I mean, obviously there are some people and we could probably segue into another case almost immediately, but I do not consider them to be irredeemable. I have kind of lived with the family members, and I don't know about you, but I've only had a couple of handful of cases in over four going in my fifth decade, where every single living family member wants them out, wants a defendant out.
- [09:19]
Matt Murphy
Well, so I did work at Donovan. We used to do our BPT lifer hearings down there just to kind of add to it. And I got to be a little bit careful because I'd never want to ask you anything that could potentially violate attorney client. But I'll tell you what my prediction is. Your problem in getting them out is I dealt with dos in one of my cases, which of course is a. It's a prison gang down there that they've. I was surprised. I didn't, I didn't know that Eric had an affiliate. So whenever, you know, I did about 100 BPT lifer hearings because, as you know, Mark, that was a part of the job in Orange County. They would send us to prisons around the state to attend those BPT lifer hearings. So whenever a murderer was up for parole, we would go in there. And when you had, as a general rule, when a prisoner has recent 115s, so that's the, that's the code for major rule violations. As you know, that would almost universally keep them out. But when you had 115s plus gang involvement, the scary thing, I think for a lot of those commissioners to forget about all the, all the fame and the high profile nature of the case, whenever you've got cell phones, the specter of gang involvement, the problem in the modern era is cell phones are very dangerous in prison. And I think Lyle and Eric both got caught multiple times with cell phones. So they can petition in one year. I think it takes 18 months before they get another hearing. I could be wrong about that. But you're absolutely right that three year denial is not actually three years in the current state of the California penal system, because they really do seem to have a new emphasis on getting people out on parole. So just a prediction for me. I think they're really going to have to keep their noses clean because if they pick up a 115 between now and then, they're screwed. Or at least one of them would be, I think. But I have to say this, you just. You, Mark, you getting them a parole hearing was remarkable legal work, regardless of where everybody, anybody falls on the Menendez brothers, whether they deserve it, whether they're innocent. Lot of high emotions out there from a purely mercenary legal perspective, you know, removing the right or wrong of the, of the case. You did amazing legal work, in my opinion. Just getting that. I didn't think he had a chance in hell. And I'm no fan of George Gascon, but I think that, you know, I think you would have been successful regardless of who the DA was, given the advocacy that I witnessed. So major, major kudos to you, my friend, for getting that. Now, do I think they should be released? Not to surprise you, Mark? Hell friggin no do I think they should be released? But that's a debate. That's a debate between old friends. Another time, I think.
- [12:07]
Mark Gerrigos
I think so too. But, you know, talking about. And I could push back, but I'm not gonna. I really wanted to talk to you. I thought about. I was actually excited to see that you were going to be on today because I wanted to talk to you and get your reaction to what everybody, at least in my world, I'm sure yours, is talking about, and that's the Charlie Kirk murder yesterday. And I think that, my guess is you're probably inundated with as well. What's your takeaway so far on this? And what do you think in terms of this investigation and what are they doing? I mean, what's happening here?
- [12:45]
Matt Murphy
So behind the scenes right now, every FBI agent in America is trying to figure out who the man is in that picture. And I predict we're going to see an arrest within 24 hours. That's my guess. I think the escape route looks like it was well planned. So maybe there was continuing plans in effect to get away. Maybe there was a, you know, a car that was ubiquitous that he could drive away in or might have even had help. But this is really a reflection of modern America, right, Mark? We've got such a divisive political climate and as you know, I mean, we debate for a living, right? We debate. Between the two of us, We've got over 50 years of professional advocacy. And there's a great quote I wanted to read. I'm a sci fi nerd. And so this is from an author named Isaac Asimov, right? Yeah. Prolific writer.
- [13:42]
Mark Gerrigos
And boy, one of the great things about him is he's right. So often when you go back and read him, it's uncanny.
- [13:51]
Matt Murphy
Oh, yeah, he's a sage for predicting future events and things like that. But he had a quote. Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent. And when you talk about debate, because that's what Charlie Kirk would engage in, he would go out in the marketplace of ideas, he would go to universities. And one of the things that I keep hearing is, well, he engaged in hate speech, which is flatly not true. Hate speech again. And for every lawyer that keeps hearing that. I know Mark has thought the same thing. We all study a case called Brandenburg vs Ohio in law school. And that's where the United States Supreme Court made the legal standard for what is actually hate speech. And what is required is the way they described it, speech directly aimed at causing immediate illegal legal acts and likely to do so. In other words, it's incitement to violence. The UK has a different standard. The EU has a different standard. But here in America, spirited disagreement or debate. And he was a. Charlie Crook was a religious guy. He was a man of faith. I'm not personally religious, but when you, you know, hate speech is a very different thing. It's not speech that you hate. And when you have. What has really disturbed me, mark, is these TikTok videos. And I don't know if you saw the TMZ cl, where when it was announced that he died, suddenly there was a celebration in the background over Harvey Levin's shoulder. There were people cheering that. And that you and I, Mark, have been in the. I mean, it's a weird way to put it. We've been in the murder business for decades. And I just. So many people seem really young and naive and celebrating the idea that somebody who disagrees can be murdered. I'm looking at them thinking, you have no idea what violent crime is. You have no idea what murder is. You've never walked a crime scene. You've never watched the clinical dissection of a human being in a postmortem examination. And you've never dealt with the bereaved family of somebody who has been taken from them because of something like this, or even whether it's murder and a robbery, murder and a rape, the apoplectic grief of family members. And this man had two young kids and a wife who loved him. And when you just take the politics out for a second to celebrate the death of a 31 year old man for disagreement disturbs me greatly. And I worry, Mark, about what the reaction is going to be. And some of the stuff I've seen online, people are incredibly angry, not just about the death, but about this support. It's almost like this Mangione case over and over again. The Mangioni case, the man who gunned down the United Healthcare CEO. That has nothing to do with healthcare. It has to do with the murder of a human being, also a father with two. And when you deal in our business and you deal with the human aspect of it, it is really profoundly disturbing to me to see people celebrating. And I want to believe it's a tiny segment of the population. But that video, I watched the whole thing. And you and I both, Mark, we've been to the scenes, we've done these cases, but I've had plenty of murders on video. This one was really disturbing. So I don't know, what are your thoughts on the whole thing?
- [17:14]
Mark Gerrigos
So it's so interesting the way you've cast this because I will tell you one of the first things I did when I saw the TMZ videos, I called Harvey last night and he was mortified and gave me an explanation that the guys had been watching a card show.
- [17:29]
Matt Murphy
I saw it.
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Mark Gerrigos
Yeah.
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Matt Murphy
I'm not sure I believe it, but I hope it's true.
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Mark Gerrigos
I've known Harvey for as long as I've known you. I believe him when he tells me that. So putting that aside, though, the thing that you said that really caught my attention and I was thinking about last night is, you know, we do this and have done this for decades. Again, I hate to age myself, this idea of being in the courtroom where we're arguing and we're at each other, you know, you or whoever, your adversary. And I grew up in an era where you understood that that's what you did, especially in the criminal law. But there was kind of a collegiality once you were out of the courtroom. You could go to the tooth and nail, hammer and tong with somebody, but you go out of that courtroom and you had a mutual respect. I mean, that's yours and I's. Our mutual respect. Even going at it in a courtroom has lasted for years. I mean, we haven't had a case against each other in a number of years, but we still have that kind of adversarial respect. And I think collegiality, that is what is missing in the current political discourse. And I used to say, well, this is because of the criminalization of politics. But I think you've hit on, on something else that I hadn't quite understood. There is almost this kind of a war like aspect to it that you're. You've got to kill or you've got to be killed, as opposed to your term, and I'll use it, the marketplace of ideas, which is what we do in a courtroom where you have an adversarial system. And that's, I think, what we don't have. We don't have this idea that you can respectfully disagree, you can argue, yet still go out. Now, mind you, I can't tell you the number of times you've probably had this from victims talking to you. I've had it where defendants get very upset with me because I have that relationship with opposing counsel or DAs where I'll walk out in the courtroom and I'll talk to you about kids or wife or parents or something, and it's like, what are you doing? Why are you talking to them? How, how can you do that after, after they're trying to put me away and say, understand this is why the system works, because we are advocating to the zealously, yet at the same time we understand it's not. We don't cross certain lines.
- [20:15]
Matt Murphy
Well, I totally agree, Mark. And the example, when I was in training, there was a guy named Chris Evans you probably encountered more than once. And he was a superior court judge in Orange County. Now, great guy. He said it's like the Bugs Bunny Roadrunner cartoon where you have the sheepdog and the wolf and they clock in in the morning, they chase each other around, and then at the, at the end, it's like, good night. Good night, Phil. Good night, Ralph. That's the way it's supposed to be. I've shaken the hand. I've done, if you count my bench trials, I've done over 250 trials. You probably got even more than me at this point. I have shaken the hand.
- [20:47]
Mark Gerrigos
It's just. What?
- [20:49]
Matt Murphy
Yeah, I've shaken the hand of my opposing counsel on every single one of them except one. And that' he stopped talking to me about halfway through the trial. And I didn't try because I knew he wouldn't. He wouldn't respond.
- [21:01]
Mark Gerrigos
A better record than me. I've got probably. There's probably two hands worth of opposing counsel. But by the way, out of that two hands, probably eight of those 10 were civil opponents, which is a, which.
- [21:16]
Matt Murphy
Is also something, Right? Like civil attorneys are the worst for the, for the, for the viewers, criminal attorneys tend to get along and there is usually vast majority of time, a lot of mutual respect, like on Menendez, like we were just talking about. I disagree that they got, you know, that Mark has taken it this far. But I really, from a lawyer standpoint, I have nothing but admiration for his competence and his professionalism in getting that done. So there is that ability. And I think you're right, Mark. There's another great quote I wanted to share. It's been attributed to Socrates, although he didn't say it exactly this way. And that is when the debate is lost, slander becomes the tool of the loser. And one of the comments I saw online on Charlie Kirk was some guy who said, well, I guess he lost the debate, and that's exactly wrong. They turned him into a martyr. And this is, you know, when he literally had a microphone there that people could come up and debate him. That's what he does or did. And the killer could have done that if he had the debate, if he had the point, if he had the intellectual truth capacity or competence to come in and offer a counterpoint, then everybody could have heard it and it would have been broadcast. And that's what it's supposed to be. And when you shoot your opponent because you have no comeback, it is, I think, the ultimate expression of losing the debate, in my opinion.
- [22:39]
Mark Gerrigos
So I couldn't agree more. And it's, it's the video, I think, is why this resonates so strongly across the, across the aisle, so to speak. But what really is offensive is exactly what you kind of put your finger on the pulse of this idea that we, we are so, we are so angry, we are so divisive that we can't just take a breath and then continue to have a reasonable discussion. And by the way, I mean, what is the, you know, and I wonder, I mean, I'll go off onto a slight conspiracy theory here. What, what do you make of some of these conspiracy theories that are going around right now? The I won this morning from somebody who I have the utmost respect for and, and his intellect and his ability to argue is that he now believes that there was a hand signal and that that hand signal was okay, now do it. Then there's been the people who, it was timed to the subject matter of the questions, and then once the questions were done, don't you think that the longer this goes on and is not solved, so to speak, to the extent that there is a coherent theory and an arrest, that this can spin out of control?
- [24:08]
Matt Murphy
Oh, 100%. And you know what it is, Mark? It's the Dunning Kruger effect, which is a formal scientific study showing essentially, if you're really stupid, how would you know? And we see that over and over again. These people want to be the smartest person in the room with their 90 IQ and their complete lack of life experience. And they roll in and have something they want to pronounce. Oh, I've got it figured out. It's like, and there's a million examples of that in pop culture from 911 to the Kennedy assassination and everything else. It's. There is Occam's razor, right? The simplest explanation is almost always the correct one. And certainly there's grand exceptions that we encounter throughout life on that, including a lot of the murder cases that we have done. However, I think that's really what it is. I think you're absolutely right. I think the longer it goes, the more of those kooks are going to come out of the woodwork. And they're kooks. Sorry. And I think the more like, and I'm going to use a word here, these morons, Mark, who are celebrating this are so stupid. They don't understand the enormity of what the murder of another human being and the grief and the multigenerational ripple effect. They're celebrating the worst thing that can happen. And this is not good for America. It is not good when we can't disagree publicly without fear. And who's next on the hit list for those that are condoning it? And by the way, anybody who says I don't condone murder, but anything that comes out of their mouth from that point forward, like on Mayan Gianni, is condoning murder. And look, I will debate anybody anytime on this. I'm sure you would too, Mark. It's like we have to be able to talk to each other. We have to be able to disagree. And it is very much, I think, to the benefit of the left, to the Democratic Party, to everybody that leans that way, that this guy be caught and they distance themselves from him as, as soon as possible. That's. Those are my thoughts on that. Next, our thoughts on Donna Adelson's guilty verdict and who is next on the Justice Train. If you have any questions or comments for us, you can now email mk true crimeevilmaycare media.com we would love to hear from you.
- [26:22]
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- [27:24]
Matt Murphy
Now. Donna Adelson was found guilty last week and I can't wait to get some thoughts from, from both of you, but particularly you, Dave. You're connected to this case. Let's, let's play SOT6. And I want to get, I want to get your reaction.
- [27:40]
Mark Gerrigos
We the jury find as follows as the count one of the indictment, first degree murder, the defendant is guilty of first degree murder. Mrs. Adelson, control yourself.
- [27:57]
Matt Murphy
All right, Dave, let us have it. What's your response to that? Now, of course, we've done a million trials between you, Mark and I. You know, sometimes they react, sometimes they don't. But you're close to this case. So tell us your thoughts.
- [28:11]
Dave Ehrenberg
Justice serve. I didn't see any waterworks there, Matt. I saw a woman crying out saying that she is innocent. Actually, the jury, the jury four person said that. She said you're convicting an innocent woman. This was her way essentially of lashing out. This was not a sad woman. This was a woman who's angry because she's never been held accountable for anything in her life before. And now her son is in prison for life. She's going to prison for life and her daughter Wendy is next. So I don't feel any, any sorrow for her. I don't feel any feeling for other than good. You got justice and more to come.
- [28:50]
Matt Murphy
Yeah, I'm kind of with you on that, Mark. Let's talk a little bit about client control. That's a concept that most viewers have no idea what that means. You are famous for some of the best client control in the business. When you have a defendant like that, you get a client who's already been Admonished at least once by the court for having outbursts. What do you think? Client control failure? Just her. Her last gasp. What are your, what are your thoughts on that?
- [29:17]
Mark Gerrigos
Well, the. You know, I've often wondered and it wasn't. I've got my father's portrait over my shoulder when he was. Was a hard charging prosecutor like you two and then was my partner for many years and he and I always would talk about why I am insistent that during a trial that there is no kind of show of obvious emotion. You don't act out, you don't do anything along those lines if you can at all help it. But I understand once the verdict comes, just this kind of being aghast, so to speak. I've been there and you two probably have had the same thing. I've been there when somebody has testified and, and it is the hardest thing in the world to control yourself as somebody is saying something that you just know is a bald faced lie. But in this case the last thing I'm going to do is second guess her. If it is true and Dave and I talked about this. Matt, I don't know if you've heard the same thing. If it's true that she was offered a time served deal and she just got convicted and is facing life. That's got to be one of the great gambles made and lost of all time that at that age you turn down time served and you got life. If it's untrue, it still makes a apocryphal story. But at the same time I don't think that was acting. I think she honestly believed that she was going to be acquitted. My read from the cheap seats.
- [30:56]
Matt Murphy
So Dave, we had again famously we had evidence in that where she was, you know, she wanted to have her two Jewish grandkids dress up like Hitler and convert to Christianity and she called them gibbers. And this is a woman who hated the victim. So in light of that, is that emotional reaction in your mind or is that theater or is that just the final, her final f you to the jury, what do you think?
- [31:22]
Dave Ehrenberg
She looks at the jury with contempt. She looks at Tallahassee with contempt. And this is her way of saying, you hayseeds, how dare you convict me. I could buy and sell each and every one of you. That's the interpretation I got from this. And as far as what Mark said, yeah, Mark and I had discussed this but the time served offer supposedly went to Katie McBanowa, the Shotgirl girlfriend of Charlie Adelson. She turned that Down. Now she's in prison for life. It was just a rumor that there was an offer to Donna to give her time served in exchange for turning on Wendy, which was never gonna happen. And the state attorney's office denied that that deal was ever proposed. So she was gonna go down for it because she and Charlie were the ones who set this whole thing up. Remember, here's a woman who thought she was so smart that she laundered money literally. She took money laundering literally. She put it in a washer dryer and it came out still soggy and moldy. So not the smartest criminal, but she thought she was. And I think that reaction from her was finally having her day of reckoning upon us.
- [32:25]
Matt Murphy
So in one minute, Dave, break down. What do you think's gonna happen with Wendy? Everybody wants to know that. Are they gonna take a run at her? And if so, what do you think the most persuasive evidence is against Wendy?
- [32:38]
Dave Ehrenberg
Wendy was at the crime scene. Why? She had to drive out of her way to get there. She was on the block. She didn't require into her kids who were supposedly in the care of the person whose house was now covered with police tape. Didn't care. She tried to set up her boyfriend, allegedly at the time, asking him even after they broke up. When are you leaving? When are you going? And Donna had Danny's make, model and license plate of his car in her planner two years after the divorce. How did she get that? I'll give you one guess. So that's just some of the evidence against Wendy.
- [33:15]
Matt Murphy
So, Mark, in California, which is different than Florida, I actually looked this up. Florida for an accessory after the fact has a 30 year sentence. Accessory after the fact of murder in California. Dave, this might be my news to you coming from Florida. California has a 36 month maximum for accessory after the fact of murder with a 50% good time work time. So the most you can do actual custody time for an accessory after the fact is 18 months custody time. So by the time the trial rolls around, that's almost always CTs or credit time served. What do you think, mark? Wendy's case.
- [33:51]
Mark Gerrigos
3, 16, 23 last time I looked. Which means the presumption is two years, you do one.
- [33:59]
Matt Murphy
That's right. That's right. So yeah, for an aggravated accessory after the fact and murder, the maximum you're going to do is 18 months. But Mark's right, the sentencing guidelines basically call for, unless there's aggravating features, you got to do midterm, which is one year. It's pretty incredible. Huge difference. But in my view, Mark, Wendy right now seems like the toughest of the bunch. Any thoughts? I could see you defending somebody like Wendy.
- [34:26]
Mark Gerrigos
I think there's a reason that they have not brought the case against her. Dave is much more into the weeds than I am, But I always. I default to my experience, which is if they have not brought her in, I mean, a smart prosecutor in my mind would have brought charges against her and her mother at the same time. I always say the difference between the mafia and the prosecution is that the mafia spares the women and children. But the pro, most prosecutors will bring them together, hoping that somebody will kind of pull the rip cord and say, okay, I give up. I'll take the fall. And that wasn't done here. This is much more. The serial nature of this is very unusual in my experience, at least. The idea of going one by one by one just is. Is very highly unusual and is not the usual case when you're prosecuting murder cases.
- [35:33]
Matt Murphy
Yeah, well, we'll be keeping our eye on this one for sure. Sure will be interesting to see. Dave, I know you have limited time. Why don't you walk us quickly through the Kendra Le Carre case? What's that all about?
- [35:45]
Dave Ehrenberg
I watched the most shocking thing on Netflix and I couldn't believe it. I don't want to give any spoilers out, but let's give some spoilers out. So this was this case up in a rural part of Michigan where this poor girl in high school got an unending series of text messages, threatening text messages, telling her to die, kill yourself. You're disgusting. You're too thin. And all these horrible sexual messages to try to break her and her boyfriend up. And eventually they did break up. And this. These text messages continued against the boyfriend. And then when the boyfriend found a new girlfriend, it even continued against the new girlfriend's mother. And it were thousands of these messages at all hours. And they knew details about the victim and the boyfriend that no one else knew. And people were shocked. They were trying to figure out, how can we find out who did this? And the local police were stymied. So finally, FBI came in and they trace it. And you know who did it. This is. I still can't believe this. The victim's mother.
- [36:47]
Matt Murphy
The victim's mother. Let's play. Yeah, I'm sorry. Let's play that SOT. We've got a play. SOT 4, please. Or is it a high school girl.
- [36:54]
Advertiser
In Michigan was cyberbullied for more than.
- [36:56]
Matt Murphy
A year and who turned out to be the suspect shocked everyone. It was so bad, to the point.
- [37:03]
Dave Ehrenberg
Where I didn't want to even go to school anymore.
- [37:05]
Advertiser
It was relentless. I mean, one in the morning, three.
- [37:07]
Mark Gerrigos
In the morning, I would question how.
- [37:09]
Matt Murphy
I thought about myself. There's some sick messages. They were enough to make a 53.
- [37:14]
Mark Gerrigos
Year old man blush. It's crazy how having a phone can become the worst thing that happened to me.
- [37:21]
Matt Murphy
Things are about to get so much worse.
- [37:23]
Dave Ehrenberg
Everything was gray and then, you know, things started happening.
- [37:27]
Matt Murphy
The parents wanted to confront people and start pointing fingers when they involve the FBI. You can just see how fast this escalates. They made quite a scene in school.
- [37:38]
Advertiser
I wanted to try to protect her.
- [37:39]
Matt Murphy
And keep her safe.
- [37:41]
Mark Gerrigos
I found one phone number that kept coming up.
- [37:43]
Dave Ehrenberg
We gotta nail this son of a.
- [37:45]
Mark Gerrigos
I really didn't know what to say.
- [37:47]
Advertiser
This is disgusting.
- [37:48]
Mark Gerrigos
No way.
- [37:52]
Dave Ehrenberg
Crazy that someone that close could do something like that.
- [38:00]
Matt Murphy
Okay, let's go right into the next shot. Let's connect that to the sentencing. If we could. If you could please play shot number five.
- [38:08]
Advertiser
I never want to hurt anyone else.
- [38:10]
Matt Murphy
Like I have already done.
- [38:12]
Advertiser
I actually look forward to continuing my work and continue continuing my progress daily.
- [38:18]
Mark Gerrigos
I have caused a lot of damage to my family.
- [38:25]
Matt Murphy
So, Dave, what do you think? Munchausen syndrome by proxy is one of the things that they claimed. Give us a quick rundown on that. And how much time did she get?
- [38:33]
Dave Ehrenberg
She got, I think a year and a half and I don't know how much time she served. And she wants to reestablish relationship with her daughter. Her daughter wants the relationship. It's like Stockholm syndrome. But the daughter wants to be back with the mother. And the mother is not allowed to have contact with the daughter yet. The poor husband, I mean, they were essentially in the poor house because the wife, the mother here, took control of their finances, but was out of a job, didn't tell the family she had no employment. And this is how she spent her days, terrorizing her daughter, driving her to the point of suicide, which thankfully she didn't attempt as far as we know. But encouraging suicide. I mean, the whole thing is so crazy. And it had to be Munchausen's by proxy, where the mother is trying to, I guess, be the savior to the daughter who's crying to her every day to try to get publicity. And also the mother wanted to have her late show, apparently with the boyfriend because she kept showing up at his sporting events. She kept trying to bother him even after they had broken up. So the whole thing is sick. This woman is sick and I just think she got off a little easy based on the terror and the horror she committed to her own family and the community.
- [39:40]
Matt Murphy
Well, as I say, truth is stranger than fiction. Dave, I know you gotta run. Thank you so much for joining us today. And next, your emails, our closing arguments and updates in the bizarre Burning man homicide investigation. Stay tuned.
- [39:56]
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Mark Gerrigos
So it's like.
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- [41:45]
Matt Murphy
We'll get to your questions in our own closing arguments. But first we want to bring you an update on the Burning man murder. For those of you who've been following the story, A young man, 37 years old, named Vadim Kruglav was stabbed in the throat on August 30th at the burning man festival. This is a big mystery. There was a person they described as the Unhinged man. And Burning man there's plenty of drugs, lots of people. We all know what Burning man is. Mark, what are your thoughts on this one? They're gonna find this guy. There's rewards out there, you know. Seems like a big melee. What's what are your thoughts?
- [42:26]
Mark Gerrigos
They'll find them. The witness statements are people who've identified an unhinged man who's gone around talking and connected to, I believe, a recreational vehicle. I think it's only a matter of time before they kind of get into or will lead, figure out exactly who it is and just a horrible, horrible crime. The. I hate to say it, but Burning man is, it's the opposite of what people go to Burning man and hope for.
- [42:59]
Matt Murphy
It's pretty amazing, isn't it, Mark? Like you got a festival that. I don't want to say they promote the use of drugs, but I know people that have gone to this and it's a big, it's a big drug fest and, and I'm surprised that there isn't more violence at this, quite frankly, you know, when people are out of their minds, you know, and we've seen this. How many times have we seen methamphetamine related murders, Mark? I mean, how many? I'll bet you that you personally have handled a couple of dozen where either meth is on board the killer meth is on board the victim.
- [43:29]
Mark Gerrigos
I'll tell you. I've got an alley behind my building in downtown LA that is formerly called Lebanon Alley. I now call it Fentanyl Alley. And I would venture to say, I don't think I'm exaggerating, but I would say that this year alone there's probably been 10 deaths in that alley. It's just, it's a. I don't remember you. You and I are both old enough to remember PCP and that kind of 90s phenomena. We're, we're back. The 90s are calling and they brought back some even stronger drugs.
- [44:05]
Matt Murphy
Right. Isn't it amazing? On my caseload in homicide one time I had, I think I had 18 cases at the time, 12 of them, like we counted it out, it was either over a meth deal, it was, you know, and meth is almost, it's almost losing its, its hypnos in the drug world, you know, and you're right, it's. We're, we're back to fentanyl and heroin and that sort of thing. But meth, for whatever reason, and a lot of these designer drugs really do make people lose their frigging minds. And I don't know what it is. They love to stab each other. I don't think I saw what it.
- [44:37]
Mark Gerrigos
Is too, about the. Yeah, there's something about the drug that activates that I will tell you. And also, you know, it's so amazing you say that I There was a judge, Judge Younger, Eric Younger. His dad was able, who was the AG in California. But Eric Younger used to talk about in the 80s that cocaine possession of cocaine with intent to sell was the parking ticket of the LA Superior Court. And I used to take it a step farther. I'd say it is amazing, amazing to me to sit in a criminal courtroom and see how many of the crimes that come through there are drug related. Whether it is a burglary to get drug money, whether it is an assault as a result of a drug deal gone wrong, whether it is a murder because somebody is freaking out of their mind. It is an incredible phenomenon when you think about it and reminds me of what the one sheriff of LA county once said is that he's running the sheriff's department in the jail is the largest mental health facility facility in the world.
- [45:39]
Matt Murphy
Yeah, it's spot on, isn't it? And it's a chicken or egg thing, right? Are they, are they, is it because of the drugs that they're crazy or are they mentally ill to begin with and then they start using drugs as a way of self medicating. But we'll be following this one. It's, it's quite a case. But you and I both know where the defense is going. It's going straight towards methamphetamine induced psychosis or ketamine induced psychosis or something else. But anyway, we'll be watching that one closely. Let me read something. This is a question for you Mark, from Missy Springer and this is a great one. I would love to have you answer this from Missy. I have wondered if the defense attorneys want the defendant to tell the truth in order to better serve the client assuming they are guilty or if the defense attorneys can better defend if they don't actually know if the client is innocent or guilty. Can you discuss and before you answer that, Mark, I got to tell you, making the transition from being a prosecutor into doing some defense work and I'm very, very selective about the cases I take. I mostly defend police officers now, but I am still, I'm a real rookie when it comes to questions like that. Do you want to know the truth from your clients or not? I would love, love to hear your thoughts.
- [46:54]
Mark Gerrigos
Let me tell you. And I've thought about this quite a bit. I talked to clients, new clients about this quite a bit. When you come in and you are either charged or suspected of committing a crime, I explain to clients, look, you are facing the government, whether it's the state or the feds. They have to prove their case. If you start to tell me your side of this story before I know what the government knows, before anything, before I've seen a police report, if you've already done a preliminary hearing or you've been indicted before I've seen a transcript, you put me in an impossible situation. If you tell me something, you believe it, and that was your story. And I later learned that you were mistaken, you didn't know, or what you've said or you truly believe is not accurate. I've been put in an ethical dilemma where I cannot now put you on the stand because I cannot put somebody on the stand if I know that what they are saying, if I'm basically suborning perjury. The ethical rules require that you have to let. If the client testifies, even over your advice, you have to let them testify. It's the one of the one areas where the client can overrule a lawyer. So I do not want them to tell me their version of the facts. I want to do my investigation. I want to get whatever information I can first. I want to know what the government knows before I start questioning you. And people will say, well, that's kind of cynical or, or it's devious or it is not. Because I will tell you. I've had the experience where a client has sat in my office early on in my career, told me a story of what they thought happened. And I said, that's complete bullshit. I don't buy it. And then they told me a second story. I said, that story is even worse than the first one you just told me. I could never sell that story in a million years. Then they told me the third story, which was the truth, but it was so embarrassing to them that they didn't want to admit it. And so that's part of the problem. I'm not the judge, I'm not the jury, I'm not the fact finder. I'm there to defend you. And the only way I can defend you is to know the universe of facts and what the government knows, because I'm there to defend against the government. You, as a prosecutor have a different duty. You're to seek truth. I'm here to zealously defend.
- [49:23]
Matt Murphy
Well, there's a great adage that I heard, I think in law school, only a fool lies to their doctor, but only, only a real idiot lies to their criminal defense lawyer. Why don't we go into one minute closing arguments? Mark, any topic that you want to rant on for For a minute. Take a shot, buddy.
- [49:44]
Mark Gerrigos
You know, I'm going to make the Charlie Kirk. I'm going to end with the Charlie Kirk closing argument. For those who and Matt referred to it. I watched some tiktoks last night of people kind of celebrating the death because they didn't agree with him or there were kind of montages of things that he had said and oh, you know, especially with gun violence and. Okay, well, kind of your foisted on the, on your own words or hoisted on your own petard, so to speak, and that you deserve it or be careful what you sow. I think that that is despicable and I will tell you why. If you can't engage in an argument and if you can't sit and try to persuade somebody that your position is correct, what you have done is you have reduced the idea of rationality, reason and persuasion to the point where it's primal and it is not civilized. And what I mean civilized in the traditional sense of civilization. We cannot move forward if we decide we are going to kill people we disagree with because if we get to that point, then literally it's the law of the jungle.
- [51:09]
Matt Murphy
Well, this is one of those occasions where I totally agree with Mark Ergos. This is, it is absolutely, utterly reprehensible. Anybody celebrating that has never lost a loved one to violent crime or to murder. And you can tell that because anybody who's experienced that kind of grief would never behave in some of the ways that we're seeing. I only hope that people on the, on the right side of the political spectrum take the high road here and understand that they're not going to stoop to the same kind of stuff. Haven't yet. And I hope they don't. I kind of, I fear for our future as a country. And if you can't debate, especially respectfully or disagree, we are in big trouble. So thanks to my fellow contributors and thank you for joining us today at MK True Crime. Send us your story, suggestions, questions and comments@nk true crime devilmaycaremedia.com Next show drops Wednesday. And everybody please have a great weekend.
- [52:14]
Mark Gerrigos
Tomorrow.
- [52:15]
Matt Murphy
It's gonna be okay.
- [52:17]
Mark Gerrigos
Who would do this to me?
- [52:18]
Dave Ehrenberg
A Lifetime Original Movie A Husband to Die for the Lisa Aguilar Story do.
- [52:24]
Matt Murphy
You know where your husband was at.
- [52:25]
Mark Gerrigos
The time of the attack? He's been wrong. Fleet Charged. Sometimes betrayal wears a familiar face.
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- [52:32]
Dave Ehrenberg
Don't miss A Husband to Die for.
- [52:34]
Mark Gerrigos
The Lisa Aguilar Story starring Mary Lou Henner, Kiana Lynn Bastidas and John McLaren.
- [52:41]
Matt Murphy
Tomorrow at 8, only on Lifetime.