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Mystery of Missing CA Baby Deepens, Leaked Kohberger Jail Video, Rumored New England Serial Killer
00:49:06
MK True Crime contributors Dave Aronberg, Mark Eiglarsh, and Phil Holloway join the show to discuss the ongoing search for seven-month-old baby Emmanuel Haro, how his parents’ reacted when confronted by inconsistencies in their ‘kidnapping’ story, Emmanuel’s father’s dark past involving child cruelty charges, whether jury selection on the Donna Adelson case will be impartial, what surviving roommate heard Kohberger say to one of his victims, leaked footage of Kohberger in jail surfaces, police address rumors of a serial killer in the New England area, and more. Dave Aronberg: https://davearonberglaw.com Mark Eiglarsh: https://www.eiglarshlaw.com Phil Holloway: https://x.com/PhilHollowayEsq Riverbend Ranch: Visit https://riverbendranch.com/ | Use promo code MEGYN for $20 off your first order. Cozy Earth: Luxury shouldn't be out of reach. Go to https://cozyearth.com/MEGYN for up to 40% off. Follow MK True Crime on all social platforms: YouTube - https://www.you...
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- [00:01]
Dave Aronberg
When work gets crazy, I like to.
- [00:03]
Megan (Sponsor Host)
Stop by the bar after, have a few cold ones.
- [00:06]
Dave Aronberg
I don't drink at all until 4 o'.
- [00:08]
PACT Sponsor Voice
Clock.
- [00:09]
Mark Iglers
We limit ourselves to one bottle of wine a night.
- [00:12]
Phil Holloway
Excessive drinking has a way of sneaking up on us. A few drinks, a few nights a week, it can add up and suddenly we're at greater risk for long term problems like heart disease, cancer and depression. Reason enough to rethink to Drink more@rethinktodrink.com no HA initiative.
- [00:35]
Dave Aronberg
Welcome to MK True Crime. I'm Dave Aronberg, your host today. I'm the former state attorney for Palm beach county and current managing partner for Dave Aronberg Law. Here's what's on the docket. A baby boy is still missing in California. Seven month old Emanuel Harrow's parents reported that he was kidnapped from a store parking lot days ago. After a tearful plea for his return, they have stopped talking to police and have lawyered up. Also, jury selection and Donna Adelson's trial for the murder of son in law Dan Markell is currently underway. And we continue to learn more about killer Bryan Kohberger from sealed police documents and more. I'm joined by fellow MK True Crime contributors Mark Iglers, criminal defense lawyer who you can find at speak to mark.com and Phil Holloway, criminal lawyer and former police officer and ordained minister. We have to start with baby Emanuel. As of this recording, he is still missing. So let's start with you, Mark. I mean, first off, this is a horrific case. And I know as a former prosecutor you had these terrible cases of kids missing and it's something that's always a priority for U.S. prosecutors. But Mark, what's going on here? I mean, this seems like a case where the mother who supposedly is complaining that the child went missing after she.
- [01:58]
Mother of Emanuel Harrow
Was attacked, I got him out of the car seat and I laid him down and so I could get his diapers ready and somebody said hola. And that's all I remember. And I saw white and a hearing sound. I fell on the floor and I and as soon as I got up, I couldn't find my son. I checked it all around my truck and I ran into big five and I asked the lady if she saw a baby or someone with a baby. She said no, it was a happy boy.
- [02:33]
Phil Holloway
He smiled.
- [02:34]
Mother of Emanuel Harrow
Mackenzie loved to kiss him.
- [02:36]
Dave Aronberg
And then it looks like her story is falling apart. And now the investigation turns to her and her husband. What's going on here?
- [02:44]
Mark Iglers
Well, first let me start with my criminal defense hat. Then I'll put on my former prosecutor hat, criminal defense hat. None of us know with certainty at all whether her or her husband were involved. Her story could be the truth. It could be accurate. All right, now I'm done with the criminal defense hat. I'm ready to put on the prosecutor's hat because candidly, their performances look horrible. The husband has a record that, you know, pretty much indicates that he does know how and have the ability to harm a child. He was convicted. He pled to harming a child, fractured the skull. When I read that, I went, oh, boy. Come on. Could it be any more obvious? That said, let's go back to the presumption of innocence. We don't know they did anything. But law enforcement are being very open and honest about how their stories are not matching. The evidence doesn't support what's being alleged. The bruise she's claiming that happened by this perpetrator was there prior to the incident. She's claiming she was at a certain place when others are saying she was not. So again, if you're not telling the truth, there is a good reason why people are pointing their finger at both these people tonight.
- [03:55]
Dave Aronberg
Yeah. And Phil Holloway, what about the father's track record? He's got a little bit of a rap sheet. You know, he. Yeah, that's pertinent here, wouldn't you say?
- [04:04]
Phil Holloway
Well, so look, this is one of these situations where you're right, everybody's presumed innocent. But look, I think we know, unfortunately, how this movie ends. We've seen it before. I know I've seen it when I prosecuted these cases. These were some of the worst cases, you know, that I ever had to deal with. And it's why I won't take one now in defense practice. Look, he was. He was not just charged with hurting a child. Look, he was convicted of aggravated battery. All right, so this is the kind of thing where this child had. That's what we would call it in Georgia. Anyway. His. His child that he harmed, he was convicted in 20, had severe injuries. I mean, the kinds of things that ought to have sent him to prison for decades. In fact, you know what he got? He got 180 days in jail, followed by four and a half years or so on probation. And he's got a probation violation pending, coming up with a hearing sometime in September for being a convicted felon in possession of a firearm. So this father is. He's really got a lot going on here. And look, I certainly hope that I'm wrong, but I predict that we're going to have Some arrests that are made in the very near future. And it's probably not going to be just dad, may as well be mom as well. Because if you look at the stories that they're telling, and I'm calling them stories because I don't believe them, I think they're lying. In fact, they continue to go out and lie. And now they got Grandma in on the public relations campaign. One of them is lawyered up, apparently. They all need lawyers for good sakes. But look, this case is one that we're going to have to keep an eye on because I just have such a terrible feeling that it's just not going to end well. These people cannot keep their story straight. They cannot say anything that makes sense, that is logical and that it's coherent. And here's what I want to know. Here's my key question on this. When is the last time anybody other than these people that you know say that they're the parents and grandparents, any third party, any neutral person, when has this child been seen last by somebody else? How long has this child really been missing? Because I don't believe a word that's coming out of the mouths of those parents.
- [06:19]
Mark Iglers
Dave. Let me ask you something, Dave. If this had happened in your jurisdiction in West Palm beach, with what you have right now, what are you telling law enforcement as a prosecutor, what are you doing at this stage?
- [06:31]
Dave Aronberg
You are focusing on them. They are the targets. Because it is not normal behavior for a mother who says, I was attacked and my baby is gone to now say, I'm not cooperating anymore, and let's get lawyers. That shows to me consciousness of guilt. It's interesting also that the father hired his own lawyer. Apparently not the same lawyer as the mother. Looks like they're gonna do some of this stuff. And it wouldn't be the first time. And when the father, Jake Harrow, he had had his previous incident where he beat up a child. It was just awful situation. He blamed the mother at the time, so look for that. But I would tell the prosecutors to work with police to try to get every bit of information we can on the parents. They are our focus now. Because what they're doing, how they're acting, is not consistent with someone who is innocent here. In fact, there are groups out there that are there to help parents and the community find missing children. And they are now stepping away. They, unfortunately are seeing the writing on the wall.
- [07:30]
Mark Iglers
What about getting to mom and saying, listen, he's the one who's got the past. Likely he's the one who did it. You step up now and get in front of this, you know, there's a chance that you survive, you know, this, this whole ordeal.
- [07:43]
Phil Holloway
I'm going to put my police officer hat on. Yeah, tell me just a minute, because I would. I would. I would. I would start with. With mom. I think that the mom knows the truth. I don't think she's speaking the truth. I think she knows the truth. She may. She may be the person who is ultimately responsible, but my. My spidey sense tells me it's more. More likely to be the father who we know has a propensity to engage in this type of horrific criminal behavior. So let's go to mom and let's. Let's. Especially if she gets a lawyer that actually could help, because the police can go to that lawyer and say, look, we can cut a deal with your client. We can make certain concessions if she will do the right thing and she will just let us know what really happened. Because she's out here saying, you know, that she was, I guess, mugged at the same time this child was kidnapped, and she's got this black eye. But it turns out she had the black eye way before. And eyewitnesses have seen her with the. With the black eye before. Is the father beating her? Is that how she got the black eye? These are the kinds of things that I would use to go to. And I could say, look, if he's hurting you, we can help. We have a way forward for you that doesn't send you to prison for the rest of your life. Because if this does turn out to be a murder case, you know, I would be in favor of the death penalty, which they still have in California, but, you know, it's at minimum a life sentence.
- [09:08]
Dave Aronberg
Well, they both be principals to it, potentially. So she is facing life in prison. It's very unlikely that a mother gets a death penalty situation like this. It could always happen. So, yes, you can really strong arm the mom here. One thing that's interesting, Phil, is you said that witnesses have said that she had the black eye before she showed up, when they saw her that day before the child went missing. But that those are unverified accounts. We saw them on social media. So look, we. It looks like those are legitimate accounts, but we don't know for sure. Only law enforcement really knows. They've got a lot more information they're probably not letting on. And I would expect some arrests to happen soon. So I want to give you the last word, Mark Eiglash.
- [09:50]
Mark Iglers
Well, imagine for a Second that we found out that her story was true. Just for a second. Because we don't know. If I gave you both the opportunity to invest your entire financial future into the fact that they're both guilty. I don't think you'd do it. Right. All of it. So let's hold off. Let's see what happens. I'm inclined to agree with both of you. Their stories to the media look questionable. The way that they're acting look questionable. But there have been people who are innocent. So let's keep our eye on this one. Let's see where it goes. Likely to lead to arrests, but let's just see.
- [10:26]
Dave Aronberg
Mark still has that criminal defense lawyer DNA, little bim. I get it. Yeah, I get it. Well, we're gonna move on to our next topic, and that's Danny Markell, who is a friend of mine. This is personal. This is the start of the Donna Adelson trial. Jury selection is starting. And like I said, this is personal. I call myself the Florida lawman. That's trademark, by the way, so don't get any ideas. Mark Igler. But Danny and I were friends when I was a state senator. And he was someone who could have made a lot of money in the private sector. He was a Harvard law graduate. And instead he went into teaching in a smallish town of Tallahassee. And he loved it. His students loved him. He wrote, he was prominent nationally in his writings. And he then had a bitter divorce from his wife Wendy, who also is a lawyer who also worked in Tallahassee, although she's from south Florida. And for those who don't know the difference, there's a big difference between where Mark Iglarch lives in south Florida and I live down here too. And then north Florida, Tallahassee. It's an eight hour drive from Miami to Tallahassee. And it's like night and day. One's a big urban, very diverse area. The other one is a smaller college town with government in Tallahassee. And the Wendy did not want to stay in Tallahassee. She wanted to take the kids to south Florida. And when the mayor split up, there was a bitter custody dispute. And the Adelsons, Wendy Adelson, her mother, Donna Adelson, her brother Charlie Adelson, they were determined to get those kids down to south Florida. They offered to bribe Danny. They said, we'll give you a million dollars. No. Then in court, it was really brutal, very nasty. And when Donna Adelson was found to be bad mouthing the ex husband, Danny Markell, in front of the children, Danny Markell said no more unsupervised visits for the grandma. I moved the court to require supervision. And that's when allegedly, Donna and Charlie put the plan into action to have Danny killed through hitman. And finally, after 11 years, Donna is now on trial. Jury selection began on Tuesday. And I want to discuss this because, like I said, this is near and dear to me. Phil Holloway, I know you've been following this closely because you and I message off air a lot about this case. What's your take? Are they going to find a fair and impartial jury for this woman who has been known worldwide as the one who put this plan into action?
- [12:52]
Phil Holloway
Oh, yeah, they're going to find. They're going to find a jury, and the prosecutor seems to think that they're going to find it, you know, before the end of the week. And so, look, there's a lot of people that have moved into Tallahassee and that in that general area, since Dan was murdered back in 2014 so brutally in his garage by these hired hitmen killers, there's been a lot of people that have moved in. So you got people, obviously, that are there that have followed the case, that are potential members of the jury, but you got a lot of new people there that may be just learning about it for the first time. So I think they're going to be able to. To find a jury. The thing that I'm watching the most closely in this case is exactly what her. Donna's defense is going to be, because there's a lot of circumstantial evidence, including, I think, the most compelling of it all is her trying to jump on a flight to Vietnam. And I think we got video of that. But she's trying to jump on a flight to Vietnam where there's no extradition treaty. And she's on a recorded phone call talking about having researched Vietnam and other places with no extra extradition treaty. But is she going to say that, look, I was aware of this only after the fact, and yes, I may have covered up for my son and. And tried to help him, Charlie, and tried to help him kind of get out of this thing, but I was being blackmailed, you know, by these Latin Kings, and I was being blackmailed who. From others who I thought were more Latin Kings turns out to be the FBI. And I was scared, and I was running because I didn't know what to do. Is that going to be her defense, or is there going to be something that's going to tie her to being the mastermind of this before Dan was murdered. And so I'm very, I'm very curious to see. I think their defense is probably leaning towards her being an accessory after the fact. And it's noteworthy, and I'll shut up after this. It's noteworthy that she's only charged. Well, she's charged with murder, she's charged with conspiracy, and she's charged with solicitation for somebody to commit murder. So those three charges do not mention accessory after the fact. And so if she were to take the stand and admit to being an accessory after the fact, and the jury believes that she could be acquitted of all the charges in that indictment.
- [15:08]
Dave Aronberg
It's a really good point. I want to go to the point you made also on the circumstantial evidence when she attempted to flee the country. You want to talk about consciousness of guilt, how about buying a one way ticket to Vietnam, a country with no extradition.
- [15:20]
Mark Iglers
She bought a one way ticket to Vietnam and that shows consciousness of guilt. But I did hear that her defense is the following. And don't kill the messenger. They knew that possibly she would be required to come back to the US but they didn't know when. So they bought a one way ticket there, waiting for them to say, okay, now we want you to come and surrender. And they would have then bought another ticket to come back home. There, I said it.
- [15:49]
Phil Holloway
The problem with that, the problem with that garbage is that she doesn't have to. She wouldn't have to come back to turn yourself in if you didn't leave in the first place. So that's the only problem?
- [15:59]
Dave Aronberg
Yeah, there's another problem?
- [16:01]
Phil Holloway
Yeah, there's other problems.
- [16:02]
Dave Aronberg
There's another problem. She's caught on tape in the recorded jail call with Charlie saying that I'm either going to kill myself or I'm going to flee to a country with no extradition treaty with the United States. Okay, well, there you go.
- [16:13]
Mark Iglers
That's a problem. I'll tell you what's also a problem for me. So we've got her on the street corner approached by an undercover officer who says things to her that if she was innocent, if it was you, Dave, Phil, me, we would say, what are you talking about? I don't know what you're talking about. You're saying we owe you something for something. What does that mean? Instead she calmly just goes on her way. And I think that's a problem for her.
- [16:41]
Dave Aronberg
You have this undercover cop who approached her out of the blue, surprising Donna, surprisingly, saying that you got to Take care of my friend who's in prison for you know what. And if you didn't know what you know what was, if you had no idea what this was, you would just say, huh? And then you would take the piece of paper which said $5,000 on it, and you would throw it away or you would call the cops. But she didn't either. She called the alleged extorter and started to talk to him, to plead with him to leave her alone. And then at the end, she didn't say, I'm reporting or goodbye. She said, I'll call you back.
- [17:14]
Phil Holloway
Yeah, Charlie. She called Charlie, too, did she? She called Charlie to talk about it. And then Charlie called the. Who he thought was the hitman's brother, who turns out to be an undercover cop. And at first he says, I don't know who you're talking about. But by the end of the conversation, he's like, I'll get back with you. Like, of course.
- [17:31]
Mark Iglers
It's like, you know who she doesn't call? Phil, she doesn't call 91 1. You're approached on the street and you know nothing about this. I mean, nothing. That's her argument. I don't know what he's talking about. By the way. The cop does a great job. He looks very credible and believable. Great. Acting better than the parents who claim that their kid was taken. But you call 911 right away. That is what a normal, innocent person does. And that is going to be a strong piece of evidence for the prosecution.
- [18:01]
Phil Holloway
And it's already been ruled admissible, is my understanding, and it should be. You're going to have some of the same evidence that was used to convict Charlie and the others. I think only one of these guys took a. Took a plea deal. One of the. One of the hitmen, but not the trigger guy. Right. So the prosecutors know how to try this case, and they're moving their way systematically through the. The most culpable defendants in the most logical way. And now they are at the matriarch mastermind, so to speak. And then the question is, though, like, is she. Is she going to rat out her daughter? Is she going to try to throw Wend Adelen, the mother of these children, under the bus?
- [18:45]
Mark Iglers
Speaking of that, Dave, let me ask you. The judge made a ruling adverse to the defense who wanted to call Wendy the daughter to testify, and the judge quashed their subpoena. Right decision, wrong decision. What do you think it was?
- [19:00]
Dave Aronberg
The right decision? Tension between Wendy, right. And her mom here. And her mom could Turn on Wendy, but she will never, never do that. But here in court, you had the defense, Donna, wanting to subpoena Wendy to testify in her mom's defense. And Wendy's saying, I am not doing that because you. The defense cannot give me immunity. She knows she's likely to be next, so she's going to testify for the prosecution, who's going to give her immunity, and the defense can cross examine her. And that would have immunity because it'll be on the same subject matter. But if she wants to go beyond that. Nope, she doesn't have to. The defense lawyers can't ask her anything beyond that. And then she's gone because she lives in Texas.
- [19:40]
Mark Iglers
What about the defense's proposal? Well, Judge, this is a premature ruling. Let's bring her in. Let us be able to ask certain questions. Maybe they're so innocuous that she doesn't plead. The fifth was the defense's position. And the judge said, no, I'm following the first DCA case law and it supports the state's position. You can't do that. What are your thoughts on that?
- [20:04]
Dave Aronberg
Well, that's tougher. I actually think having a proffer and getting the idea would have been the better approach. I mean, now she's, once she's done, they'll ask the prosecutor, is she released? And the prosecutor will say, yep, and then she's gone. You, you can't call her back because she'll be in Texas. And as a lawyer in Florida, you have no jurisdiction over her. So that is the danger here. And I do think that would have been the better approach. Mark? I don't know. What do you think, Phil?
- [20:28]
Mark Iglers
Is this an issue on appeal?
- [20:29]
Phil Holloway
Phil, the judge said they're going to get, she's. The defense is going to get a very thorough and a sifting cross examination, just like any state's witnesses. And the judge did say if something comes up during the trial and we need to revisit this issue, he's open to it. So the judge didn't completely close that door. I mean, he says, look, I mean, this is the ruling that I'm going to make going in, but if something comes up and we need to re, we'll rethink it. But, Dave, I've got a. I've been thinking about this. As you know, we've been talking about it offline, and I'm, I, I might disagree with you a little bit. I sense that there's some bad blood that has been brewing and is festering and is probably getting stronger over time. Between mom and daughter. Right. I think that there's. We've got. We've got mom on recorded audio where she's basically expressing a lot of frustration with Wendy right after, you know, Charlie was sent to prison. And so I don't know that. I don't know that those two really are that much. That close. I don't think there's much love lost at this point. Maybe she's. She's decided, I'm going to go ahead and throw Wendy right under the bus and, and focus her defense in that direction. I, I wouldn't at all be surprised. You say it's unlikely, and you are the, you know, you guys are the Florida experts, and you may very well be right. But I'm going to, I'm going to wait and see if, if something doesn't surprise us, because I think that the prosecution is going for Wendy next, and I think if there's anything that they can do to develop that theory, they're going to go after Wendy. And even though she's been granted immunity for what she state subpoena, that doesn't mean she's has immunity from prosecution in general. So I think they're developing a case very methodically against Wendy, and I wouldn't be surprised to see her as the next defendant.
- [22:24]
Dave Aronberg
I agree. If Donna's convicted, I think Wendy's next. If Donna is acquitted, this whole thing is over. But I do think she'll be convicted. One last thing about Donna and Wendy. The thing that matters most in the world to Donna are grandkids. That's why she allegedly did all this. So to take away the. The mother of the grandkids, to put her in prison and let Donna the grandmother, live for the next, what, 10 years? She has less. 15 years. She's not doing well behind bars. I don't know. I can't imagine she would do that. Make that trade. Mark Iguire, I'll give you the last word.
- [22:56]
Mark Iglers
I think that nobody wants to spend any time in prison. And I wouldn't, I wouldn't be surprised if this family starts to point fingers at a minimum, just to help their own case, not because they think that that would lead to the prosecution, let's say, of Wendy. So mom may throw Wendy under the bus, if that's necessary, to help herself, but that doesn't mean that Wendy then is gonna face prosecution and that whatever the mom says will carry any weight.
- [23:21]
Dave Aronberg
Thanks, Mark. Well, next we have updates on Bryan Kohberger and the Devil's Den Killer. If you have any questions or Comments for us. We've got an opportunity for you to reach us. We wanna answer your questions on the air. You can now email us at mktruecrimelmadcaremedia.com that's mk true crimevilmaycaremedia.com we would love to hear from you. And we'll be right back.
- [23:48]
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- [25:00]
Dave Aronberg
Now new Bryan Kohberger. Details have emerged. We're learning that Coburger, allegedly, according to Dylan, one of the roommates, said Kaylee's name while he was at the house that night. He also searched for a new car. Searched for serial killers. We know how much he loves serial killers. And we also have some leaked jail footage that's quite revealing, in fact. Let's play that clip. Clip four. So there he is behind bars.
- [25:28]
Phil Holloway
His hands are very, very red. Like he's scrubbing them relentlessly.
- [25:34]
Dave Aronberg
Well, he's like an OCD guy, you know, he goes through several bars of soap a day because he relentlessly showers and just tries to wash his hands constantly throughout the day while.
- [25:46]
Mark Iglers
Hold on. While very interesting, that's a breach. I'm thrilled that we're seeing it. Assuming it's not AI but assuming it's real, why the hell are we seeing this? Somebody violated the rules of that jail and somehow leaked this footage.
- [26:02]
Phil Holloway
Well, it's just like we saw. Like we've seen leaked Pictures of Epstein. Right. But when? After. After he. Whatever happened to him in custody. Whatever. After whatever happened. We see law enforcement and corrections officers do this all the time, especially in high profile cases. They do it because maybe they're getting paid by some media outlet for it. Maybe they're doing it just because they want to feel good about themselves and maybe they want to do. For their 15 minutes of fame or whatever. We get our correction officers from the same place that any place like it's. They all come from. The general population is the point. And so people, when. When they have sufficient temptation, they will break the rules. I wonder if this is maybe a little bit AI but if it's not, they will get to the bottom of it and somebody's going to get fired and perhaps even arrested.
- [26:49]
Mark Iglers
They need to be again. Okay, so we lower the burden because it's Coburger. Right. But it's not. Let's just say it's anyone else. Let's say it's any person who had a really bad night. They're presumed to be innocent. Now all of a sudden there's footage of them in some jail cell. I'm not okay with this. And somebody needs to be held accountable.
- [27:08]
Dave Aronberg
All right, but it still makes for good TV here.
- [27:11]
Mark Iglers
I do not disagree. I said I'm glad I'm seeing it. I'm curious to see what he looks like in his jail cell.
- [27:16]
Dave Aronberg
Yeah. Also, it does give us a little satisfaction to see that he's by himself and he's just behind a bar. He seemed like he got off easy. That guy should have gotten the death penalty. I know I'm speaking as a former prosecutor, but if this guy doesn't deserve capital punishment, then who does? He's a weirdo, too. And you know how we know he's a weirdo? Not just because of his actions or the. The eyebrows or the fact he took that creepy thumbs up picture after he slaughtered four innocents, which was ghastly. But while all the blood was rushed out of his face. Oh, please, put that away. Awful. Awful. Is that earpieces or are those like extra long sideburns? I've never known. But we also have a colleague of his, a former colleague. Professor Ramsland gave an interesting interview. We have that clip. Let's play that clip of Professor Ramsland's interview.
- [28:04]
Professor Ramsland
I'm horrified that I had a student capable of such violence. I hate that I am in any way associated with it.
- [28:14]
Dave Aronberg
What would be your main questions to him?
- [28:17]
Professor Ramsland
What would you want to know? What everybody wants to know? Why did you do this? If you want to know what was going on in any offender's mind, it takes time. You have to be willing to listen, nonjudgmentally, build sense of that they feel safe saying it. I can't anticipate that that would necessarily ever be the case with any given offender. And so until I'm actually in a situation, I don't know what questions I would ask.
- [28:59]
Dave Aronberg
Yeah.
- [29:00]
Mark Iglers
Bill Holloway, we're not gonna know. I mean, everybody wants to know. The truth is, you're not gonna believe any word that flows from his lips. And secondly, the only thing he can say to. Of the truth is, I thought that it would be enjoyable to slaughter innocent people. That's just how my brain works. There's clearly a defect in my brain. You can try to figure it out, you could try to prevent it for future, you know, from future harm. But I enjoyed it. That's all he could tell us. That's it. The specifics, do they really matter why he picked those particular victims? Maybe. But why? He did it because he wanted to. He enjoyed it. How does that help any of us?
- [29:44]
Dave Aronberg
Well, we all want to know the why. It's just something for closure, I think. Phil Holloway, what's your question?
- [29:48]
Phil Holloway
Yeah, well, so, yeah, the why is going to be very complicated because his, his motive is that he has this fantasy of becoming a. In his mind, one of the great, you know, serial killers of all time. And he's going to start out with this mass murder. But that professor, look, I mean, I kind of feel bad for her. She doesn't. She didn't cause this. She did not inspire him to go commit this ghastly mass murder. He took her class because he was interested in serial killers and mass murders. And we know that because he's still researching these things. He's searching and all over the Internet for everything he can find about serial killers and mass murders, just even before it. And in the days and weeks after, before he was arrested, he was still searching for it. He was searching for things like, you know, is it. And I'm paraphrasing a little bit, but is it, you know, is it normal for serial killers to have, you know, anxiety or whatever, to be worried about getting arrested? And so we know that his, his brain is just wired in a way that can't probably be explained. We'll never fully understand it, but we do know that, look, he, He. He did at least stalk these victims. We know that he's appeared in their places of employment, in the restaurant where a couple of Girls work in was talking to their WI Fi. And as you mentioned earlier, Dave, we know that he was heard, like, while he's committing these crimes, saying, kaylee's team, look, he's like, I'm here for you. I'm here for. What does that even mean? Okay, he's talking to his victims by name. And so we know that he planned this. It was very meticulous. If ever there was a case that screamed for the death penalty, it was this one. I won't beat that dead horse over and over again because we've talked about it to death. But I think that when we see him in that jail cell, to me, it looks a little too roomy, a little too comfortable. It needs to be a lot smaller and a little bit more Spartan, because I need to know that he is being punished for the remainder of his days.
- [32:00]
Mark Iglers
I don't get this professor's guilt. This wasn't a class called how to, nor should the person who sold the knife feel any guilt either. No one had any intent. I can't imagine why she's suffering even a small amount. She had nothing to do with this creep. What he did happened way before he ever took that class. There was something wrong with this guy.
- [32:24]
Dave Aronberg
Definitely something wrong with this dude. But, look, it could be misogyny. I mean, he had weird relationships with women. He was a heroin addict. He was obese. I mean, he just goes fluctuates up and down. I mean, just something was really deranged in his mind. And it could have been just as simple as, here's this doctoral student with great misogyny who loves serial killers, and that was his dream, to be, like, the serial killer that he used to read and study about. Maybe that was it. But it is a little bit unfulfilling that we still don't exactly know the why. Maybe that's why a lot of us are saying, let's find out. Even though I know, Mark, you're right. I mean, unless he says, I want to do it because I enjoyed it, then maybe we shouldn't listen to him. But I don't have more information. I would have liked prosecutors to put that in the plea deal. So we found out something which we didn't.
- [33:11]
Mark Iglers
Sure. I mean, there would have been some value to hear what he's claiming the motive is. That necessarily wouldn't have been the motive. But we would have at least heard what he's claiming was his reason for doing this.
- [33:23]
Phil Holloway
Yes. Okay, now we've got an injunction. Okay, we've got an injunction from A judge that says, okay, we may not be able to see a whole lot more information. There's litigation ongoing right now designed to keep the police department and law enforcement from releasing further details, specifically, I think, with regard to some of the pictures. But the public has this obvious thirst for knowledge to understand why this could possibly happen. And the families have an interest as well, I think, in not having their privacy, so to speak, unduly interfered with due to the mass public interest in the grisly and gruesome details. I think we can learn a lot about the Coburger case without seeing the body camera of the police officer entering the home and things like that we don't need to see. As a matter of the public. We don't need to see that gore and that gruesome type stuff. We do need, and I think we as the public should be allowed to have access to the rest of the data. How they tracked him down, what they've learned about him, things that might go to his motive. But I, for one, have seen enough gory crime scene photos in my lifetime, and I don't care to see his.
- [34:42]
Dave Aronberg
Yeah, fair enough. And we need to move to our next topic here. Devil's Den Killer. Speaking of a weird dude with an awful picture. I mean, his mug shot was Nick Nolte esque. It is brutal. Oh, my goodness. Look at this guy, right? I mean, now, Nick Nolte apparently was drunk at the time this guy was arrested getting a haircut. I guess that's why he's wearing a smock. Right? And maybe they should have finished the haircut before they let him take this picture, because he just looks right away. I mean, I know innocent until proven guilty, but that picture to me says guilty.
- [35:13]
Mark Iglers
All right, Dave, his haircut is the least of his problems right now.
- [35:16]
Dave Aronberg
Yeah, something called evidence, right?
- [35:18]
Mark Iglers
Yeah, yeah, that, you know, his confession and the DNA, you know, that might be more of a problem than that crappy haircut.
- [35:25]
Dave Aronberg
Maybe. I wouldn't be a good juror. I forgot the confession of the DNA. Look at that haircut. I mean, come on. Right, so he pled guilt, not guilty, last week. He could be connected to other cases. Apparently, he's wandered around forests in the past, allegedly and killed at least one individual who's a professor at Vermont State that he allegedly killed. So they're looking into that. We'll see. We can't definitively say it yet, but this guy is clearly deranged. At least in my mind. It looks like a sociopath. I mean, the evidence is so strong against Him. So I want to throw it open to you guys. I mean, what's next in this case? Phil Holloway, I know you've been following this closely. What's going on here?
- [36:03]
Phil Holloway
Yeah, well, for example, in Wisconsin. All right, so there's a detective at Salt County Sheriff's Office in Wisconsin. He's stating that his agency has received tips regarding a possible connection between something that happened back in October of 2020 where John Craig Schmaltzer was stabbed to death while hiking on Grotto's Trail. So they're looking to see if there's a link there. He says they've received many tips, and one of the most interesting and I think compelling things is that that killer is supposedly around 6ft tall with an average to slender build. And that almost perfectly describes our suspect here in Devil's den, who's also 6ft tall. And so I think that anytime you have unsolved murders, by the way, and I advise law enforcement agencies from time to time, and I've also been involved in some cold case investigations. And so what I know when you have cold cases and you got unsolved murders, what they authorities sometimes do is they wait to see, you know, when they monitor the news to see if there's anything that kind of fits their pattern. And if it is, they automatically go and see. Look. Okay, can we share information? Can we have a look at your case file? Can we see if there's any possible way to tie your suspect to our crime over here in whatever state? So this is something that we see commonly between law enforcement agencies. Whether or not he's ultimately tied or connected to any of these other crimes remains to be seen. But it does give sort of a kickstart to cold cases when people are committing crimes that are very similar in nature. And here, sort of the common denominator is the. Is the murders on the hiking paths.
- [37:55]
Dave Aronberg
Yeah. Mark?
- [37:56]
Mark Iglers
Yeah, Dave. Here's how it's going to go. Legally, it's real simple. Once they determine that he isn't responsible for any other murder, they can't tie him to it. His attorneys will take a couple of years litigating it, and when you get frustrated about that, just say, no, thank you, defense lawyers, because he's entitled to good and competent counsel, and they must do everything they can to afford him due process. And once all the evidence stays in and the government can prove the state can prove their case beyond a reasonable doubt, they will plead for a term of years that is not a life sentence. The prosecutors will say no, and then ultimately say we'll remove death in favor of life. And likely that's what will happen. We've seen that movie play out before.
- [38:39]
Dave Aronberg
We certainly have. And that'll have to be the last word because we've got another topic to cover next. Is there a serial killer stalking the New England area? We'll take on that topic next.
- [38:53]
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- [40:24]
Dave Aronberg
Now the police have addressed a rumor that a serial killer is on the loose in New England. We're gonna take this on as our final topic. Now as someone who lived in New England for seven years, I gotta tell you that is pretty shocking because there have been 13 bodies so far. Now there Are rumors that there's a serial killer on the loose. And we've got a map of the locations. If we can put that up, that there it is all over New England. Now, we don't know exactly the connection between the killings, except these are unsolved deaths and police are wondering if this is related. They want to keep, obviously people, they don't want to say there's a serial killer on the loose, but a lot of people are starting to ask questions with those 13 bodies. Mark Iglers, what's your take on this?
- [41:13]
Mark Iglers
I said recently that we've seen the last of serial killers. I said this randomly before this subject matter. I said with all the technology out there, there's no way that somebody will be able to continue killing without either DNA nabbing them. Video cameras on the street rings, there's just no way. So I start with that premise. I don't think that there's a serial killer out there. The question that I have is, does that chart that you just showed, is that like that unique? I think that if you showed any random city, you start, I mean, certainly here in South Florida, you'd have a lot more dots all over the place and you could panic everybody.
- [41:53]
Dave Aronberg
But unsolved killings, unsolved murders, oh, sure.
- [41:57]
Mark Iglers
You know, I do not believe that there's a serial killer out there. I think it's coincidental and I think that we would know. I just don't think that they would be able to get away with it the way that chose.
- [42:11]
Dave Aronberg
Phil, do you agree?
- [42:12]
Phil Holloway
Well, you know, I do agree that if they're serial killers, it's harder for them to get away with it. It's just like Coburger, I think was a serial killer that was just getting started, but due to technology and DNA and other things, he was arrested before he could get started. But the timeline of these bodies that are found to me is compelling. You got March 6, March 6, March 19, March 20, March 26, April 9, 10th, 20th, 22nd, April 25, 27th, May 30, June 1. These are all sort of rapid fire bodies that are turning up in the, in the general area. Now look, it is true that some of them could have just nothing at all to do with one another. Some of them aren't necessarily homicides. Police have to investigate all those things. But I do think that there are so many of them and the timeline is so compressed that it can't be ruled out. Each one of these has to be painstakingly researched and investigated by law enforcement. And as we all know, Law enforcement is already spread thin enough with their resources, so it's going to, you know, they've got to first figure out is each one of them a homicide and then move out from there and try to figure out a way to put a link there. Right.
- [43:23]
Mark Iglers
We'll put the list together. You're not even sure it's a homicide. So what did you did. Did Uncle Morty have a heart attack and they're putting that on the list.
- [43:30]
Phil Holloway
Well, that's what they've got to figure out. That's why I say they've got to start with the question is, is this a. Is this a homicide? But these are all deaths that they're having to investigate. The. The similarities appear, you know, that, you know, some of them are. A lot of these are found in wooded areas. The majority are women. There could very well be a connection, but we just have to wait for the investigation to play out.
- [43:55]
Mark Iglers
Have any of them been found in a Lazy Boy with a beer in their hand?
- [43:58]
Dave Aronberg
Like.
- [43:58]
Mark Iglers
Like we don't know. We're jumping to conclusions that there's somebody killing people in the woods? I don't know.
- [44:04]
Dave Aronberg
Mark Igler, you got to give us that reference. Lazy boy with a beer in their hands. Is that from a real life case or a movie?
- [44:09]
Mark Iglers
No, I don't know where the hell I got that downloads and I don't. I don't know.
- [44:14]
Dave Aronberg
Well, it is. I will give you this. It is hard to become a serial killer these days. Bryan Coburger thought he would be one, just like his idols. That lasted one incident, terrible incident, but. And he was caught pretty soon after because of something called genealogical DNA where you can do a search, if you have any DNA and find a relative in a 23andMe database. And then you can tie it to the killer. So it's really hard to get away with it. Plus, cell phones are everywhere, cameras are everywhere. You know that. So I. I'm surprised that if this is serial killer that you have 13 bodies so far and they'd all be related and we still don't have any concrete information, so. I'm with you, Mark. I'm not sure I would go that far to say there's a serial killer for all of them. Although it's possible you could have a serial killer for maybe some of them.
- [44:59]
Mark Iglers
It's possible. I'll make the argument on the other side. Let's say Kohberger doesn't leave the sheath with his DNA there. I mean, that was the key. And then of course them linking it up through A data bank search so you don't have the sheath. He then goes, and then the next day or a couple days after that, starts killing more people, doesn't leave the sheath. And it could happen. It's possible. I'm not ruling it out. I just. I'm more the optimist. I'd like to believe it's not really happening.
- [45:28]
Dave Aronberg
We're not ruling it out. We're just asking questions here, right?
- [45:30]
Mark Iglers
Sure we are.
- [45:32]
Dave Aronberg
All right. This is the first time we're going to try this. We've got one minute each for closing arguments, so I want to start alphabetically. Mark Iglers, you get to start one minute closing argument on any topic at all.
- [45:43]
Mark Iglers
Well, I know everybody wants me to rant, and I thought about ranting about something, but instead I want to go a little spiritual. Okay. We talk about crimes, we talk about committing some of the worst abhorrent acts, and I think that there's a potential solution. I'm here to say if you've ever considered being a big brother, serving as a mentor to someone, please consider doing it. I've done it for decades now. I've had two little brothers and a concerned adult putting themselves just one time a month. I actually spend one time a week with my little brother. Make such a huge difference in their lives. Just please consider it. Big brothers, big sisters makes a difference. That's my rant. That's my rant.
- [46:26]
Dave Aronberg
That was positive. That's a positive rant. Phil, are you going to give us something positive or negative? That's a tough one.
- [46:31]
Phil Holloway
Well, unfortunately, there's a really terrible case that's just happened here in my home state of Georgia, down in Bainbridge, Georgia, which is actually very near to where I grew up. We have the case involving Georgia toddler by the name of Clay Weeks. Clay was severely beaten on his first day at Little Blessings daycare, the first day he was there. And we have 54 year old Yvette Thompson, who is. Has been arrested. She's been charged with aggravated battery, among other things. And aggravated battery in Georgia is one of those things where it requires malice to be proven. Okay? So if this person acted with malice, that's more than just intent. But this is a crime that carries up to 20 years in prison. And that's really not the point of this. I tell you that to set this up, she has now been released on bond. It was a $44,000 bond. She would have had to pay a bail bond, spend roughly 10 or 12% of that, I guess, to get out. But one of the factors in Georgia that a judge has to be satisfied exists is that a is not a danger to the community. And so based on the probable cause that was found to believe that a crime probably was committed and she probably committed it. I don't understand how you could make the case that someone who could probably injure that child in that way and leave those injuries could, could be eligible for any kind of bond whatsoever. I just don't understand, man.
- [48:07]
Dave Aronberg
Thank you, Phil. Well said. Okay, I'm gonna finish this with my own rant. So here's the deal. Danny Markell was a friend of mine. And his sin here was being a great father who cared deeply about his two boys. And for that, he was eliminated from their lives. Not only that, but the parents took the kids down to south Florida right after his murder. Not the parents, the surviving parent, Wendy and the family. And then they stripped Danny's last name off of their kids names. So now the kids are growing up as Adelsons, not Markell's. And the plan, alleged plan seemed to work. But now the walls are closing in. First you had the murderers. They were both convicted. One of them cooperated. The other one got life in prison. Then you had the conduit, the girlfriend, Katie McManua. She had to take two trials because she got a hung jury on the first trial. The second trial, guilty, life in prison. Then the maestro, the guy who had the maestro license plate on his Ferrari. Charlie Adelson. Guilty, life in prison. And now it's Donna. So now finally, Donna gets her day of reckoning. And Donna, the bell tolls for thee. And if you're found guilty, it's not gonna be the end. It's going to Wendy. That's my belief. That's my rant. Thank you for joining us today at MK True Crime and tell us what you think of the show or for any stories you want us to cover. You can email us at mktruecrimelmakeremedia.com MK true crime@devilmatecaremedia.com See you Friday.
- [49:38]
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