Nancy Guthrie Case Digital Breadcrumbs, Theory About Multiple Perpetrators, and DNA Possibilities, with Maureen O’Connell

Summary

MK True Crime Podcast Summary: Nancy Guthrie Case – Digital Breadcrumbs, Multiple Perpetrator Theory, and DNA Possibilities

Podcast: MK True Crime
Host: Ashley Merchant (Criminal Defense Attorney, Atlanta)
Co-hosts/Panelists: Phil Holloway (lawyer/ex-prosecutor), Carlos (on-the-ground reporter), Special Guest: Maureen O’Connell (Retired FBI Special Agent, co-host of "Best Case Worst Case" podcast)
Date: February 13, 2026
Episode Theme:
A comprehensive breakdown of the ongoing investigation into the disappearance of 84-year-old Nancy Guthrie, mother of Today show host Savannah Guthrie, with deep dives into emerging evidence, digital forensics, theories of multiple perpetrators, ransom communications, and advanced DNA techniques.

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Main Theme/Purpose

This episode focuses on the latest developments in the high-profile disappearance and presumed abduction of Nancy Guthrie. The hosts and guest experts dissect physical evidence (notably gloves and blood at the scene), the role of digital breadcrumbs (particularly phone and Bitcoin activity), law enforcement’s investigative approach, and prevailing theories—including the possibility of multiple perpetrators and motives ranging from botched ransom attempt to other criminal possibilities. The panel provides insight into cutting-edge forensic capabilities, discusses law enforcement strategies, and contemplates likely next breakthroughs in the case.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. On-the-Ground Investigation & Scene Walkthrough

• Search Focus: Investigation centered around two primary locations—Nancy Guthrie's home, and the home of her daughter Annie Guthrie (4–5 miles away).
• Purposeful Law Enforcement Search: Early morning forensic activity (at 2:15 AM) at a specific roadside location about a mile from Nancy’s home.
  • Carlos (01:57–03:34): “They did not pick this location by accident. They were here for some specific purpose.”
• Digital Breadcrumb Theory: Investigators seem to be tracking a phone’s movement, searching roadsides for discarded evidence (e.g., gloves).
  • Ashley Merchant (04:43–04:57): “I almost wonder if they were trying to reconstruct, you know, actually walk through what they think happened…because that’s around the time they believe she was [abducted].”

2. Discovery and Significance of Black Gloves

• Black gloves recovered from the roadside near the primary search area may be directly linked to the case.
  • Ashley Merchant (09:01–09:56): “I wonder if these gloves…is really a potential turning point in the investigation, especially if they can get DNA.”
• Multiple gloves or pairs possibly involved; speculation on whether these are inner or outer layers.
• Gloves seen on surveillance video of a masked, armed individual at the Guthrie home strongly resemble the recovered pair.
• Discussion of DNA possibilities:
  • Modern touch DNA methods can extract skin cells from the inside of gloves, potentially identifying the perpetrator even without fingerprints.
  • Ashley Merchant (11:24): “You’re getting your touch DNA…your fingerprints…your palm print on those gloves. It does not protect you.”

3. Advanced DNA Analysis and Investigative Tools

• CODIS: Initial DNA runs through the national database; if no match, genetic labs like Othram may be involved, possibly using genealogy.
• Touch DNA: Even small amounts of skin cells (transferred to gloves, flashlights, door handles) can yield usable DNA profiles using amplification.
  • Phil Holloway (13:02): Describes process and capabilities of modern DNA labs.
• DNA Mixtures: Labs can sometimes separate DNA from multiple people found on a single object.

4. Surveillance Footage and Physical Reconstructions

• FBI has released surveillance/video showing an armed, masked person with gloves and two backpacks.
  • Suggests level of premeditation and possible forensic sophistication.
• Physical scene reconstructions under way, including attempts to determine suspect’s height via home imaging.
  • Maureen O’Connell (29:12): “They’ll be able to tell by the bricks, by the person standing there, by the lasers, the clay tiles and all the other equipment that they have…”

5. Prevailing Theory: Multiple Perpetrators and Kidnapping-For-Ransom

• Carlos (20:23–23:09): “The prevailing theory…from people here on the ground, from locals, is that someone decided to do a kidnapping for ransom and engaged the help of at least someone else…”
• Multiple persons of interest named; police are narrowing suspects through elimination, ping data, and tip-triaging.
  • Numbers: 1,400+ tips, 18,000+ calls to Pima County Sheriff since Feb 1.

6. Ransom Communication and Bitcoin Extortion

• Numerous ransom communications (esp. to TMZ), with at least one messaging demanding a Bitcoin payment (~$65,000) for information.
  • Panel consensus: These are likely opportunistic attempts by outsiders, not the actual kidnappers.
  • Carlos (25:02): “It’s a lot easier to do it the right way…by simply telling the FBI what you know and collecting their $50,000 reward.”

7. Digital Breadcrumbs: Phone Tracking

• Evidence search in both neighborhoods is believed to be driven by digital breadcrumbs—potential movement of a perpetrator’s phone, possibly a burner phone.
  • Phil Holloway (54:52–57:56, Closing Argument): Explains how phones—even when powered down—continue emitting signals (e.g., through Bluetooth, “Find my Phone”), and how law enforcement builds device location histories from tower data, dumps, and cloud networks.
  • Quote (54:52): “The technology…is a lot deeper than you might think. But if you think about your last known location, like, even if your battery is totally dead, your digital footprint from that phone does not simply disappear…”

8. Law Enforcement Response & FBI Involvement

• FBI’s resources and advanced capabilities are being heavily leveraged—now likely leading the investigation and employing crime scene experts, analysts, and forensics specialists.
  • Maureen O’Connell (47:29): “No one does kidnap, ransom, murders, any of these things…better than the FBI…”

9. Alternative Theories: Cartel or Sex Offender?

• Cartel involvement considered unlikely: Leaders much more transactional, efficient, and would not send notes to TMZ.
  • Maureen O’Connell (39:50): “The cartel will get in and out. They want their money…and this whole thing to be over quickly.”
• Some law enforcement have not dismissed a possible sex-offender motive; such angles are being thoroughly investigated through registry sweeps.

10. Behavioral and Scene Analysis

• Suspect appeared calm, determined, and possibly familiar with property, suggesting prior knowledge or “mission orientation.”
  • Phil Holloway (41:27): “He looked very comfortable. Even his facial expressions were calm…his movements were calm.”
• Timeline details: Blood drops suggest initial struggle, but not excessive violence. Abduction likely involved prompt use of a waiting vehicle.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Ashley Merchant (04:43): “I almost wonder if they were trying to reconstruct…what it would look like at that time, what the abductor could see…”
• Carlos (07:31): “They're looking at the sides, up and down the sides of Roadways…foothills…not very forgiving terrain. It'll be very difficult to search.”
• Ashley Merchant (11:24): “If you're wearing gloves…It does not protect you. I mean, it's actually a really, a really good, good clue.”
• Phil Holloway (13:02): “Once they identify a suspect…they can then take the DNA from the suspect and then try to match it to whatever they find on the gloves.”
• Carlos (20:23): “The prevailing theory…someone decided to do a kidnapping for ransom and engaged the help of at least someone else.”
• Ashley Merchant (23:09): “I like that narrative…it gives me a better picture of where all of this is leading…”
• Maureen O’Connell (29:12): “They're probably figuring out exactly the height of this individual…they'll be able to come up with an exact height.”
• Phil Holloway (54:52): “Even if your battery is totally dead, your digital footprint from that phone does not simply disappear…”
• Maureen O’Connell (39:50): “The cartel will get in and out. They want their money…this whole thing to be over pretty quickly…Cartel’s not going to send TMZ their freaking demand note.”
• Phil Holloway (41:27): “He looked very comfortable. Even his facial expressions were calm…his movements were calm…”

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Important Segment Timestamps

• 01:57–06:00 — Carlos details law enforcement’s field activities and terrain.
• 09:01–13:50 — Discussion about black gloves, video evidence, and DNA hopes.
• 16:23–17:24 — Neighborhood interviews, tips about trucks, Ring/camera footage requests.
• 18:22–19:10 — Interview with previously detained delivery driver, police narrowing suspect pool.
• 20:23–23:09 — Carlos outlines prevailing theory: botched ransom/possible conspiracy.
• 27:34–30:54 — Maureen O’Connell joins; discusses evidence progress, forensic scene reconstruction.
• 32:03–34:25 — Panel theorizes about 2:15 AM search and digital breadcrumbs.
• 41:27–42:05 — Maureen analyzes suspect behavioral cues caught on video.
• 45:05–45:32 — Law enforcement’s approach to sex offender angles.
• 54:52–57:56 — Closing argument: phone tracking tech and the difficulty of “going ghost.”
• 58:03– — Ashley shares a lighthearted story illustrating the power (and potential pitfalls) of touch DNA.

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Flow & Tone

The podcast maintains an investigative, slightly informal, and analytical tone:

• Ashley Merchant unpacks complex evidence for a general audience, balances legal insight with empathy.
• Carlos provides vivid on-the-ground updates, emphasizing methodical law enforcement movements and local sentiment.
• Phil Holloway delivers color from both legal and investigative vantage points, with technical explanations around forensics and phone tracking.
• Maureen O’Connell supplies elite law-enforcement context and analysis, offering practical and psychological interpretations of evidence and suspect behavior.

Quotes are authentic and conversational, maintaining the panel’s slightly irreverent, straight-talking approach.

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Takeaways for New Listeners

• The Nancy Guthrie case is rapidly evolving, with digital and forensic clues playing major roles in the investigation’s progress.
• A key piece of evidence—black gloves—could be a major break due to new advancements in touch DNA.
• Theories favor a botched, multi-perpetrator kidnapping-for-ransom, now cascading into cover-up and opportunistic exploitation by unrelated individuals.
• Digital forensics (cell phone and Bitcoin tracking) are central to law enforcement progress.
• The FBI now appears to be leading, with extensive field and forensic resources deployed.
• Listeners gain insight into modern investigative methods, law enforcement collaboration, and the crucial role of public tips and surveillance.

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For listeners seeking a deep, up-to-date look at the Guthrie case, this episode offers expert insights, technical explanation, and compelling narrative—all crucial for understanding what’s happening behind the headlines.

Transcript

[Ashley Merchant]

Based on a New York Times best thriller comes 56 Days starring Dove Cameron. A story of love. Oh, sorry.

[Phil Holloway]

I'm Oliver.

[Ashley Merchant]

I'm Ciara. Lies.

[Phil Holloway]

So do you like secrets?

[Ashley Merchant]

No, I like reveals. Seduction. It's like they were obsessed with each other. And murder.

[Carlos]

What do you got here? Body in the bathtub.

[Ashley Merchant]

56 Days premieres February 18th on Prime Video. I'm gonna get you.

[Carlos]

Not if I get you first.

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[Ashley Merchant]

Welcome to MK True Crime. I'm Ashley Merchant. I'm a criminal defense attorney out of Atlanta, Georgia. Here's what's on the docket today. As of this taping on Thursday, February 12, Nancy Guthrie, the 84 year old mother of Today show host Savannah Guthrie is still missing. A person of interest was detained. They were released and new evidence has been found including black gloves. And the ransom notes just keep on coming mainly to tmz. There's a lot to get to. And later, retired FBI special agent and co host of the Best case Worst Case podcast, Maureen o' Connell joins us to break down the investigation so far today. I am lucky to be joined by my co host Phil Holloway, criminal lawyer, ex prosecutor and former police officer. And Phil has been on the ground in Tucson, Arizona, bringing you the latest in the disappearance of Nancy Guthrie. So Phil, let's start with you. Walk us through what you've seen because I am dying to hear what it's like on the ground.

[Carlos]

I've been out here able to go to all these locations and get my head wrapped around what this investigation looks like, at least from the outside. And what I can tell you is that the investigation is it's focusing on two places, right? Obviously the area around Nancy Guthrie's house, which makes sense, but it's also gravitating four or five miles away over to the area where, where Annie Guthrie and her husband Tommaso live. And just two days ago I was out there and maybe three days ago and the FBI had been there basically canvassing maybe a quarter mile, half mile radius around that home. And I had the opportunity to speak to some neighbors who had the FBI in their house and in their yard. And look, they told me that one of the things that the FBI seemed to be looking for was a phone. And so, like, if the perpetrator had a phone in his. And I do believe it's a he in his pocket or on his person, that would explain why we now see law enforcement going back and maybe following whatever digital breadcrumbs were left behind by that phone, going up and down certain roads, looking on the sides of roadways to find, like, they found some gloves yesterday just right behind me over here, about 300 yards away. Oh, wow. So, yeah, so they, you know, it remains to be seen if those gloves are part of the case or if it's just some random trash. But nevertheless, they, they are seem to be searching these areas with a purpose. It was not accidental.

[Ashley Merchant]

Well, I know we've got, we've got some video that you actually took early morning about the search. I want to play that and then I want to go through the scene a little bit more because I like to really.

[Carlos]

Well, let me tell you something about it first. Okay, what, what this is about is. So last night, I think it was around 2:15am local time here in Tucson, about 4:15 Eastern, the sheriff's forensic unit goes out there and they're poking around in the area that you're going to see on this video. But they're doing it, you know, with flashlights and pitch black dark, you know, and there's cactus out there and all kinds of other stuff that you can see. You know, it's one of these things where, you know, like I said, they didn't go there by accident. Something drove them to go there at 2:15 in the morning. I kind of wonder, maybe it would have been better to go in the daylight if you're really looking for something, but maybe not. If you feel like you've got some specific lead, that you've got a specific item of evidence that you think might be right there, don't waste any time, go look for it. But anyway, that's the back story on that. I just thought it was very interesting that the investigation, you know, you never know when, when officers are going to show up, what time of day or night that these things are going to be happening.

[Ashley Merchant]

Yeah. And I almost wonder, before we played, I almost wonder if they were trying to reconstruct, you know, actually walk through what they think happened and what it would look like at that time, what, you know, the abductor could see, things like that because that's around the time that they Believe that she was. She was.

[Carlos]

You know, that's an excellent. That's an excellent. You make. That's right. That's an excellent point. Because if they're following digital breadcrumbs Left by this phone that I think. I think they have, and it's based on things I've learned here, Then that's a. That's a way. Like, if you're leaving Nancy Guthrie's house, that's one of the main ways you would leave to drive back towards Tucson. Just down this road behind me.

[Phil Holloway]

Okay.

[Carlos]

That's what I was wondering. Your theory makes perfectly good sense.

[Ashley Merchant]

Okay, so. So before we play. Well, let's play that. And then I want to kind of walk through what we're looking at, like, where her house is, Because I love it when you go to the scene. I always want to go to the scene Whenever I've got a case so that I can actually imagine it and then try and sort of explain it to a jury. So let's play this so we can see it, and then we can kind of walk through it.

[Phil Holloway]

Okay.

[Carlos]

Yep. Okay. So this is the area where the pima county sheriff's forensic team. Showed up around 2:15 in the morning, Morning local time, here in tucson, and was sort of more or less searching back over in this area. Of course, I'm out here in the daylight, and they were using flashlights, and so it's obviously unclear what they were looking for. But they did not pick this location by accident. They were here for some specific purpose. And it's hard to say what that purpose might have meant. But you can see the. You know, it's just rocks and, you know, shrubs and some cacti around. But it could be the kind of place where, you know, something gets discarded. If they were following a suspected route of travel, they might have some idea that maybe something was discarded in this area. This is about a mile or so From Nancy Guthrie's home. And it is, by the way, if you were leaving her home. And you were headed back towards tucson, it's one way that you could envision a car maybe traveling to go back towards town.

[Ashley Merchant]

All right, so we just saw this video that you took, and I know you said it was about a mile from Ms. Guthrie's house. So can you kind of walk us through the area that they're searching? Because I know there's been some searching where the glove was found and her home. Like, you know, where this goes into the plan.

[Carlos]

Well, so they're looking at the sides, up and down the sides of Roadways, and then going back a ways off into the brush. Various. It's called the foothills up there where this is all taking place. And it's not very forgiving terrain. It'll be very difficult to search. But they're going and looking down specific roadways where they were searching at 2:15 in the morning that we saw in that video. That's about a mile from her house. You would basically, at that intersection, you would make that left turn. Coming from the direction that I traveled from where I'm sitting now, you would make that left and then another turn or two, and you're right at her house. It's very, very close. And like I said, it's the type of route that would be reasonable to assume that someone leaving her home might, might, might go by. Now, there's another way. You could go in a different direction. For example, if you were going from Nancy's house towards Annie's house, you would not come by that intersection. So you got to remember that law enforcement is trying to track this person coming and going. And so if they have some type of digital breadcrumbs from the phone, it could be that they are following a. An ingress or an egress or some combination of the two. But if they found gloves that are connected to this crime, then that would mean that the killer drove this road right behind me here, headed back towards Tucson.

[Ashley Merchant]

Interesting. Okay. And I'm curious about these gloves. So. So what we've learned so far, there's black gloves that were found. They were found, and they were recovered. And they're sent, apparently sent for DNA analysis. So we can talk about that in a little bit. But the discovery comes after this video was shown. There was this chilling a nest surveillance video that the FBI released just recently that showed an armed person wearing a ski mask and gloves outside of the home. So I'm wondering if these gloves, and I know for those that are watching, able to watch this, this actually watch us live. There's a picture of them and then a picture of this actual video. I wonder if those are the same gloves. They look like it to me. I wonder if the gloves were planted. But watching this video, Phil, I mean, it looks like they're the same gloves. It looks like they're the gloves that this guy wore who was on this ring cam, on this nest cam. And then now they've found these gloves on the side of the road. So that tells me they probably weren't planted there. I mean, what do you think? They look the same.

[Carlos]

Very similar. And I am of the belief that there may be more than one pair of gloves involved? It kind of looks like that. And it's not just me. Parenthetically, I can tell you that where I'm staying here at this hotel is where a lot of the media is staying. And that includes a lot of their, you know, the former law enforcement types as well, who are analyzing this, and many of them I know personally, and we've been sort of talking about it and sort of theorizing, and the general consensus is that it looks like to them as well, that it's more than one pair of gloves. So assuming they did find some gloves that are related to this case right behind me on this road, then the question is, okay, would that be the outer layer of gloves or the inner layer of gloves? But either way, it's the kind of thing that they should easily be able to get some touch DNA off of.

[Ashley Merchant]

Oh, yeah, and we know that. Well, well, it's interesting. Whenever I see gloves, I know most of the time someone who's committing a crime, they're wearing gloves to try to hide their DNA, to try to keep their DNA. And what we're seeing now, though, now that there's this touch DNA, and we'll talk about that in a little bit, now that there's this touch DNA, gloves are actually what's being used to convict and used to place someone there. So just because there's gloves doesn't mean there's no DNA. It just means it's a different kind of DNA, you know, touch DNA.

[Carlos]

It's like they're trying to avoid leaving fingerprints. And in the process, they give something better for forensically, better anyway, for law enforcement. They're giving DNA. That's right.

[Ashley Merchant]

Right. Completely. You're giving DNA. But also, I mean, if these gloves are flipped outside, I don't think people realize that they can do palm prints also. So they could. They could try to match a palm print. They could do a partial. You know, if you're wearing gloves, you are. You're getting your touch DNA on those gloves, you're getting fingerprints on those gloves, you're getting your palm print on those gloves. It does not protect you. You know, I mean, it's actually a really, a really good, good clue. I wonder if these. I wonder if these gloves is really a potential turning point in the investigation, especially if they can get DNA.

[Carlos]

You know, I. I don't. Yeah, it depends on how long it takes them to get that DNA back. Right.

[Ashley Merchant]

That's what I was wondering.

[Carlos]

Yeah, they could put a rush on it maybe get it in a matter of days, as I understand it. But then the question is, do you have a match? So they run it through codis, which is the, you know, the big government database. And, and only people who have ever been arrested or maybe gone to prison or for some other reason, they may have their, their DNA in the CODIS system. It's not just criminals, but if you're not in that system, then they can't match it. And then the question becomes, okay, do we need to turn to a lab like Othram? You know, like we had in the Coburger case and we had an interview with the, the scientist that runs Othram here on mk? True crime folks should go back and check that out. But it's a, it's the, it would be the next step if the person is not in the CODIS database. But the other thing they can do with it is once they identify a suspect, even if it's not, even if that identification is not done by virtue of the DNA, they can then take the DNA from the suspect and then try to match it to whatever they find on the gloves.

[Ashley Merchant]

Yeah, and there's a lot of cool DNA updates that they've got. You know, I know you and I are intimately familiar with them from different cases, but I mean, what they can do when we talk about this touch DNA, what it really is, is it skin cells. So when someone wears a glove, their skin cells are actually transferred to that glove and that those skin cells actually have DNA. So they do this process called amplification where they take those skin cells because they're usually not a whole lot, and they amplify them. That just means duplicate. That just means make more of them so that they can test. And the other thing that DNA advances have really shown us is that they can take those skin cells if there's multiple people. And a lot of times, you know, you have different people's DNA on a glove and, and they can actually separate it out and they can try and make, you know, get a match that way. So there's some pretty cool things that they can do. Hopefully they'll be able to do that. And it's kind of a turning point.

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[Ashley Merchant]

Based on a New York times best thriller comes 56 Days starring Dove Cameron. A story of love. Oh, sorry.

[Phil Holloway]

I'm Oliver.

[Ashley Merchant]

I'm Ciara. Lies. So do you like secrets? No, I like reveals. Seduction.

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It's like they were obsessed with each other.

[Ashley Merchant]

And murder.

[Carlos]

We got here body in a bathtub.

[Ashley Merchant]

56 Days premieres February 18th on Prime Video. I'm gonna get you. Not if I get you first.

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[Ashley Merchant]

So I want to talk about this truck. So what we've learned so far is one of the Guthrie's neighbors, one of one of Nancy Guthrie's neighbors says the detectives have been out at least twice and asked him about a truck. David Romano, he lives around the corner. He said they've come out twice. They asked if he has a truck. He says he doesn't drive a truck, but investigators seem to be looking for someone who does. He didn't mention what kind of truck, didn't mention anything like that. But I got to tell you, Phil, if detectives not twice asking about a truck, they're not fishing, they're tracking something.

[Carlos]

Yeah. And there's also today there's been some messages sent out through like the the ring app, telling folks to look for certain videos from certain days and times. And then there's another one where the sheriff says just send me everything you got for 30 days.

[Ashley Merchant]

Right.

[Carlos]

And so it seems to me that, you know, they're obviously interviewing people. Somebody is has called in a tip or they've interviewed somebod who has told them that on such and such day they think that a strange truck may have been in that neighborhood. So this could be the thing that breaks the case wide open, or it could be a dead end lead. But what it does show, I think it speaks to the. Just the volume of leads that law enforcement has to run down. Think about how many tips they're getting in and how many of them are going to be absolute dead ends. But they've got to run down every single one of them. And that's why these things, these cases sometimes take a frustratingly long amount of time. Co burger was what, 45 or so days?

[Ashley Merchant]

I mean, I can't even imagine how many people they've got working on this because you've just got to, I mean we've got I think what, 1400 tips, 4000 tips so far, 18,000 calls since February 1st to the Pima county sheriffs. I mean that's, that's insane. So I'm glad that they've got other people helping them. They also, I thought this was interesting. They actually detained a man. They released him. So what happened is they released him after they interrogated him, but they kept him for something like, let's see, what 10 hours, something like that? Several hours. So basically what happened was there was a flurry of activity that ended once this man was actually arrested during a traffic stop. It was near the Mexican border. And he was questioned for several hours, upwards to 10 hours I've seen reported. But once he was released, he came on and he actually said, I hope that they get the suspect, but I'm not it. And he was speaking on the doorstep of his wife and his mother's home. And they live about an hour from Nancy Guthrie's home. I think we've got that Carlos at sought one.

[Carlos]

I mean, I hope they get the suspect because I'm not it. They better do their job and find the suspect that did it so they can clear my name and I'm done. Look at what I'm putting my family through.

[Ashley Merchant]

You're on the news now.

[Phil Holloway]

I understand.

[Carlos]

Even my parents in Tucson.

[Ashley Merchant]

Right?

[Carlos]

Yeah.

[Phil Holloway]

When they finally told you this was had to do with some kidnapping, like what what were you thinking?

[Carlos]

What the am I doing here? I didn't do anything, to be honest. Like I'm innocent.

[Ashley Merchant]

Yeah, yeah, well, I mean, but that's what they have to do, you know, And I hate that he was detained, but that's what they do. They detain, they evaluate. And they released him they cleared him, so.

[Carlos]

And I believe him, by the way. He comes across as credible, and he's got a perfectly reasonable and valid excuse, for lack of a better word, for being in the Aries because he's a. He's a delivery driver. He delivers packages. Right.

[Ashley Merchant]

I think that what's. What's happened is, you know, these officers, they operate by standard operating procedures. They do things one way, and they haven't updated them since all this media attention. You know, there's nothing special for media attention. But to me, I mean, the quick release is good. It tells me they're not guessing, tells me that they're narrowing. So I think what you said is completely accurate. They've got people that were in this. This location, in this zone, and they're narrowing it down. I don't know what took 10 hours, but, you know, they're doing a lot of things. So maybe he had to wait. But thank goodness they did release him. Apparently, there's other suspects. So we heard that there's multiple persons of interest. Kash Patel told Fox News recently, on Tuesday, that they're actively looking at several individuals. He said, I will say that we have made substantial progress in these last 36 to 48 hours thanks to the technical capabilities of the FBI and our partnerships. I do believe we're looking at people who, as we say, are persons of interest. With any investigation, you're a person of interest until you're either eliminated or you're actually found to be the culprit or the culprits. And that's at the stage that we're at right now. So I think exactly what you were saying, Phil. You know, all of these phones, all of this ping data, they're. They're going through and eliminating people. It's what it seems like, you know, but it's. It's encouraging that they've got so many suspects.

[Carlos]

So that. Yeah, that tracks with what I'm going to call the prevailing theory. Okay.

[Ashley Merchant]

Okay.

[Carlos]

So here on the ground, the prevailing theory of what happened. And this is the. This is from the people that are here with the media covering it. But it's also consistent with what, like, I was over in the neighborhood of Annie and Annie Guthrie's house, and I spoke to neighbors and all this stuff, so the locals even hold to this theory that I'm about to tell you. Now, I'm not naming any names, but if you have multiple persons of interest, like Director Patel said, you know, that speaks to a possible conspiracy, meaning more than one person. So the prevailing theory is that Someone decided to do a kidnapping for ransom and engaged the help of at least someone else. And I think. I'm not convinced that there's not two people, that we see two different people in those images. But either way, there was a plan to kidnap her for money and other people were enlisted to actually be the ones to go do it. And in the process, you know, she's a frail elderly woman. In the process, there was maybe a struggle, something happened, and she was either killed on the spot or incapacitated. We know she was wounded and bleeding. Right. And then she passes away fairly quickly or either at the scene. And. And then they're not able to provide proof of life. Okay. And if you can't provide proof of life, your. Your ransom sort of idea goes out the window and people start to panic. You get the media, that. That comes in all quickly and descends on the scene and it becomes obviously this matter of great public interest. And so now the conspirators are in like, cover up mode or they just kind of go to ground and just are keeping their mouth shut. So that's the general prevailing theory. You know, we do see the investigation focused in two main places. Obviously, it's going to be where the victim lived, but it's also over at the other house, Annie and Annie's house, which is four or five miles away. So there's, there's, you know, there's two different geographic focuses where the, where the investigators and the, you know, a good investigator, you know, it follows the evidence wherever it may lead, and that can sometimes be literal. And so if they think they have a reason to go look in everybody's backyard over at the other location, you know, they're not there by accident. So.

[Phil Holloway]

Right.

[Carlos]

Take that. For what it's worth. I'm not accusing anybody of anything. I'm just simply telling you that that's where the investigation seems to be focused.

[Ashley Merchant]

That's interesting. And I like that narrative. I like understanding that because it gives me a better picture of where all of this is leading. You know, what. How everything fits in. That's why it's so helpful to have you on the ground. Thank you for going so that I can be here in Atlanta. I want to talk for a minute, though, about this bitcoin demand. So we've got some new updates. TMZ just received, actually just received another email from a person who claims that they know the identity. I think this is important. They say they know the identity of the kidnapper, not saying they're the kidnapper, saying they know the Identity. They received an email Wednesday asking for one bitcoin in return for the name of the kidnapper. A single bitcoin is around 60, $65,000. Who knew? I don't really know a whole lot about bitcoin, so I think it's interesting. But I also with bitcoin, the one thing that I do know is that it's tr. So, you know, the fact that they're asking for this bitcoin, it's. It doesn't really mean that they're sophisticated because it's completely trackable. Every time someone touches the bitcoin, it leaves a digital footprint. So I'm interested to see if this is someone, it's real or if it's someone who's just trying to exploit this. But I wonder, Phil, if the FBI, maybe they could deposit some bitcoin so that they can see who. You know, if there's bitcoin in the wallet, maybe it'll trigger some movement and they can see where this person is. Maybe.

[Carlos]

Yeah, that's one of the prevailing theories and it makes a lot of sense that they would make some deposits in there to see if it triggers any alerts. Look, I think that a lot of these notes and communications with TMZ and others, I think it's a lot of opportunists that are trying to make a buck on this because look, if you really wanted $65,000 or whatever, you could actually do it maybe a more legitimate way and maybe a more honorable way by simply telling the FBI what you know and collecting their $50,000 reward.

[Ashley Merchant]

Right.

[Carlos]

It's a lot easier to do it the right way than to try to do it all cryptically.

[Ashley Merchant]

And then you can be a hero.

[Carlos]

Yeah, it's not, It'd be a hero and it's not. So these things just don't to me have the ring of credibility or truth. I think they're opportunistic.

[Ashley Merchant]

I know, I'd completely agree with you. I mean, it just seems like they're exploiting the chaos that's been created and it would be such a better opportunity. I mean, this lad, she's 84 year old lady, she lives, she deserves to live her remaining days with her family. And hopefully these people will realize that and they'll come forward and they'll explain what's going on. But so we've got special agent, retired special agent and co host of the Best case, Worst Case podcast coming up, Maureen o', Connell, she's joining us. Stay tuned.

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[Ashley Merchant]

All right, welcome back to MK True Crime. Retired FBI special agent and co host of the Best Case, Worst Case podcast, Maureen o' Connell joins us. Maureen, let's start with your assessment of where we're at in this investigation right now based on your experience. I'm so excited to have you on because you've got so much experience with the FBI and with crime scene investigations and all the things we've been talking about. So where do you think we stand? Are we getting any closer to actually catching who did this?

[Phil Holloway]

I think we're getting a lot closer with the breaking videos yesterday or the day before yesterday, and then again today we all woke up to that video of that person with the two backpacks trying to, you know, reach over and open the fence and everything like that. But we at least have a face on that guy. A face we can see, a face we can try to identify, and I'm confident we will. So I think that's good. The searching that's going on is going to be great. I think a lot of things that take a lot of time behind the scenes are sort of all coalescing and coming together. And I've got a great deal of. I've got a great deal of optimism for what we're looking at right now.

[Ashley Merchant]

Right. I feel like they're narrowing in. I really do. I feel like they really. Yeah, they're. They're narrowing in. They've got rid of some suspects. They say they've got some more suspects, but I. It's interesting and I think we have a diagram. There was a good clue, apparently. There's imagery, physical science experts, scene carrying, forensics equipment at the scene, at the house. To me, I'm curious about what you think, Maureen. I mean, it seems like they're doing some type of a reconstruction.

[Phil Holloway]

What do you think from that. From what that crime scene person is holding, they're probably figuring out exactly the height of this individual. Because if you, if we're looking through dmv, DMV photos, for example, you want to know exactly what the height is. But they'll be able to tell by the bricks, by the person standing there, by the lasers, the clay tiles and all the other equipment that they have, they'll be able to come up with an exact height. And my understanding is they took the casing or the, the casing from that camera because that's going to have trace DNA on it. Even though we have rubber gloves on and double gloves, people totally underestimate the number of times people touch their face. Just watch me in this interview. I touch my face all the time. I can't help it. And most, most people do.

[Carlos]

Even with, even with the gloves, like you're putting them on, when you put them on, you touch them to put them on. And like you said, even wearing them, you might rub some skin cells on them. So is it easy to transfer that type of genetic or the DNA material from, say, your face to a glove to some object like the casing?

[Phil Holloway]

Yes, it's very easy because the exterior of those nitrile gloves is very smooth, and so it would adhere nicely to them. If by chance, oh, please, Lord, he put those gloves on while he was still in the vehicle, and then he touched the handle that he had touched many times with his bare fingers, you could in fact transfer those fingerprints to another flat surface at or within the crime scene. Which would just be months.

[Ashley Merchant]

That'd be a huge break.

[Phil Holloway]

I know.

[Ashley Merchant]

Oh, my gosh.

[Carlos]

I want to. I want to run something past you in the, in the. In the earlier block. Ashley and I were discussing the fact that last night around 2:15 in the morning, sheriff's office forensic guys were. Went. And it just. Just like a mile or so up the road from where I'm sitting. But at 2:15 in the morning. And it's, it's the road where you would turn if you were driving from where I'm sitting to Nancy's house. And it's also maybe a route that you would take if you're leaving Nancy's house and going back towards the main area of Tucson, which is just off to my. Right here. So they're out there at 2:15 in the morning and I'm at my. And they're using flashlights. Right. We all know that it's harder to find stuff in the dark, particularly out here. This is so, so dark out here. There's very little light pollution. So I'm wondering if it wouldn't be a better idea just to go when the sun comes up, or if it's so important, something is driving you to or compelling you to go that you need to go at 2:15 in the morning. Do you just go right then and see what you could find?

[Phil Holloway]

Well, it could be a lead that came in, but I would think, because my first thought was it's too hot during the day and you can only work four hours instead of eight or 10 or 12, even as we have in the past. But you know what else? You know what? I think it really is philosophy. When you look at that backpack that that offender was wearing when he was on the porch, what did it have all over it? Reflective tape. And you would not be able to see that during the daylight because that gray backpack would just blend right into the landscape, that desert landscape is. So the problem is it's very treacherous, as I'm sure you know, even by now. And. But I think a gray backpack would be hard to see in the date in the daylight, but you could possibly hit it with a really bright flashlight and pick it up even from a distance. That's the only thing I can think of because we traditionally did not work at night unless we were working 24 hour shifts.

[Carlos]

Yeah, well, that's an excellent theory. I hadn't thought about that, but it does make perfectly good sense. But I want to ask you about one other thing. So when I was visiting in the area of Nancy Guthrie's I'm sorry. Annie Guthrie's home, like two days ago. There was neighbors that are actually very happy to talk to, to everybody, but they don't oftentimes want to, you know, go on camera and that kind of thing. But I was talking to one person and the FBI had been in their yard that day, and I asked, you know, what, what were they looking for? And she's like, well, obviously anything related to the case. But one thing that she thought they were specifically looking for was a phone. And I'd heard that from another source that he's believed to have had a phone when he was at that camera at the doorbell. And so I'm wondering if they're now finding some digital breadcrumbs from that phone and they're following those breadcrumbs and looking in those areas. And that's why we're seeing the searches up and down the roads north of Nancy's house and also maybe a quarter to half mile radius around the other Guthrie house that's nearby. So we have these two areas of investigative focus, but I'm wondering if it's some type of a digital breadcrumb from a phone that could be leading them to these specific places.

[Phil Holloway]

It sure sounds like it. And it sounds like it's a burner phone. Because if they weren't burner phones, you know, they'd be able to tie them back to an individual or at least an individual's account. And in a situation like this, I would imagine, let's say there's three co conspirators, all three of them are going to have burner phones because they all want that to be a dead end. So if they saw them stop, like for example, with those gloves, I don't know how those were discovered, but I would imagine that if it was because of digital evidence as you described, perhaps that's where a person stopped and gloves off, because he, he stopped, he were to relieve himself or something. And so he pulled the gloves off, thought he put them in his pocket and they dropped to the ground in the pitch dark. Yeah, who knows? It's. It's going to be very, very interesting. It's going to be a very interesting 24, 48 hours here because they'll be able to turn that DNA around pretty quickly.

[Ashley Merchant]

Yeah, we talked to Phil and I talked about that earlier, how long it would take. I'm glad to hear that.

[Phil Holloway]

It would be pretty quick.

[Ashley Merchant]

You know, I heard you mention a couple things about two, maybe three offenders. So if it was a solo offender, would this be Realistic, Would they be able to manage the transport, the surveillance control, all of this stuff? Would they be able to manage it or are you pretty, pretty confident that it's got to be more than one?

[Phil Holloway]

No, I'm just, I'm just going on statistics. It could be managed with an 84 year old woman if you could get in the house. You know, there are all kinds of questions about the timeline with the front door like that. Front door is never a door. I would want to try to break in because working gangs and narcotics here in Los Angeles for many, many years, we had to come across those doors all the time. And when you're doing recon for your takedown, you look at that door and you think, oh God. Because you have to rip them off the hinges practically. So you would, that's, that's why when he went up to the door, I don't know if he was just putting that foliage there or trying to block that camera because it was part of the plan that that was their egress route, which would make sense because on the way out their hands would be full and that he then went around the back to break into the back door. But you know, if we had a presser, those would be the questions I would be asking, that I would be asking whoever is handling the pressers from this point forward.

[Carlos]

Well, we know that the. Okay, so there's the blood drops, the trail of blood drops, and they are drops. It's not like, I wouldn't call it like, you know, arterial bleeding or anything like that. It looks like the kind of drops consistent with maybe a cut or even a nosebleed or something, but not, not a, not a serious heavy flow of blood. Right. But they, but they, they're. The blood drops stop when the walkways. There's a couple of steps, you, when you come out the door, it's a couple of like two steps. And then there's this semicircle driveway. It's gravel, rock, dirt. It's not a paved driveway, but that's where the blood droplets stop. And I can promise you that somebody did not single handedly carry her, whether she's alive or dead. Did not carry her that far away because you're looking at a very, I think, small radius, probably just a couple of hundred yards. There had to be a vehicle involved. I've always felt there was a vehicle involved. And, and so it's consistent with, in my view, with a, someone who's got this, a phone, even a burner phone. They put her in a car and then they Leave the area. And so now law enforcement is. Is tracking the. The digital crumbs, if you will, in and out of the. Of the crime scene. And I think that's why they're not really looking for a body or anything like that so close to Nancy's home, because they have a pretty good idea that she's not physically close to the home.

[Phil Holloway]

Yeah, Bill, I don't think they had phones with them, or if they did, they had them either off with the SIM card out or something, because I don't think it was my impression from. And I was really listening for this. And I have a good friend, former colleague, who is an expert, a national, an FBI national asset in this arena. We don't think they had a phone with him that was operable or able to ping or pinging on anything. My, My. My response to your question about the blood. The blood did, in fact stop at that one spot, but did it stop because she got into a vehicle right there, or did it stop because someone put a T shirt or paper towels or something up on the wound, whatever was bleeding? And to your question about one person moving a body, if you think about, you know, you could do it with a blanket or a tarp pretty easily. Not, not easily, but you could do it by yourself. And, and when I look at that backpack, that backpack was filled to the brim in a. In a kind of a smooth fashion. For example, if you're looking at someone's backpack and you're standing behind them, like in line at the. Anywhere like a airport, you can see that they've got, like, a big clunky water bottle in there. You can almost see the outline of a whole bunch of stuff that they have in their backpacks. We don't see that at all in this case. What we see is something that looks smooth, uniform, bulky. Yeah. You know, so that. That could have been part of the kit that this person brought into the residence. Yeah.

[Ashley Merchant]

Wow. Well, and you. You were on Megan's show and you said that it doesn't look like cartel behavior. So what's missing about cartel behavior?

[Phil Holloway]

Oh, my God. First of all, the gunslinger. That, that, that gun in the front is just. Yeah. Beyond. I mean, I don't even. I don't even know what to say about that gun. Yeah.

[Carlos]

The cartel. The cartel would. They would get in and out. They want their money.

[Ashley Merchant]

Yeah.

[Carlos]

And they want this whole thing to be over pretty quickly. By the way.

[Ashley Merchant]

Transactional. If it's cartel, totally.

[Carlos]

The cartel's not going to send TMZ their freaking Demand note. They're gonna send it to the car. But I don't know.

[Ashley Merchant]

I mean, I don't think that was the. I think that was someone just trying to get rich. I mean, what do you think, Maureen? This. This ransom note.

[Phil Holloway]

I'm not buying the ransom. First of all, if you throw it all up on the timeline, like you said, Phil, this is an in and out operation.

[Ashley Merchant]

Right.

[Phil Holloway]

If you're in the business of kidnapping people for ransom, you're in, you grab her, you're out. And you either leave the ransom demands right there or you get them to them right away. Because the last thing you want is an albatross or a ball and chain. And no offense at all to Nancy, obviously, but Nancy would be a person that needed a great deal of care.

[Ashley Merchant]

Yes.

[Phil Holloway]

That isn't what we want. If your goal is to just get the money and run, this is not.

[Ashley Merchant]

A scenario for you that makes perfect sense.

[Phil Holloway]

You take the sister. Yeah.

[Ashley Merchant]

Right, right, right. And you said that the suspect you thought may be familiar with the property. Can you tell us about that?

[Phil Holloway]

Well, he looked very comfortable. Even his facial expressions were calm. His movements were calm. And if you notice, it's almost imperceptible. But when you notice him walk up to the door, and as he's about to reach for the camera, you see him almost ready to knock. And then he.

[Ashley Merchant]

Right, he does. He does look like he's gonna knock. He totally does.

[Phil Holloway]

And then he goes to the camera, but he does not. He's not scared. He's not hurried. He's not freaking out. Normally, in a situation like this, I don't care what you're. When you're about to do something like this. You're looking around, you're. Why is he not scared?

[Ashley Merchant]

Yeah, and you. You said that. You said that he looked mission oriented. He looked forensically sophisticated. You know, I mean, that. That tells us it might be someone who's familiar.

[Carlos]

Maybe it's not his first rodeo, so to speak. And which that would be consistent with my theory and the theory that is held by a lot of others, including some neighbors that I talked to, which was, in essence, that there was a conspiracy of, you know, two. Probably, like two or three people to kidnap her, get Savannah Guthrie to pay a quick ransom. But something went wrong. She was injured, and. And they could no longer provide proof of life. So the whole thing falls apart. And particularly with. And the scrutiny on this case that came so quickly. So it seems like it was a botched kidnapping. Perhaps the other alternative is that it was a Targeted, essentially a hit. But it feels to me more like an attempt at a ransom type kidnapping that just went terribly wrong.

[Phil Holloway]

Was it a kidnapping at all or.

[Carlos]

Yeah, I mean.

[Ashley Merchant]

Right, right.

[Phil Holloway]

I mean, if you're. The other, the other thing is that door. No one's going to. The video was cut off just as he was ripping that camera off. What happened after that, I don't believe he gained access right there because that's too difficult a door to ever break down. Now, if he had a key, that's a different situation. And now we're in a totally different universe. But the other part to your point, both of your points actually is the ransom. I mean, if you want the money. Proof of life, right? Yeah, pretty simple. You've got proof of life, you're getting money and millions and millions of dollars, and yet they fail to do that. Why? To Ashley's point, because it's probably a hoax.

[Carlos]

Yeah, the, the ransom notes, the ransom demands, I think definitely are hoax. My theory, and like I said, some others, including locals, believe that the abduction was intended to be a kidnapping for ransom. But because she died and they weren't able to provide proof of life, they abandoned that part of it and have just kind of now have gone to ground and done something with the body and that kind of thing. So I do, I do believe that the so called ransom notes that went to TMZ and all that, I think that's total bs. However, I still think that it's more likely that there was an intention to ransom her, if that makes sense. But Matt Murphy, our colleague here at MK True Crime, was on this show earlier this week with us and Matt, former prosecutor out of Los Angeles. Yeah, Matt. Matt said you can't rule out this also being a sex offender. Okay. And that's the, you know, that's, that's a piece of this, that we, you know, we, we, we don't really want our minds to go there. But, you know, if you're the cops, you've got to consider all possibilities. And it's not unheard of that sex offenders would do this kind of thing.

[Ashley Merchant]

I'm sure they've gone through all the sex offenders in the area and, you know, gone through all those lists as well.

[Phil Holloway]

Through those lists too, Ashley. And when we had missing children, missing little boys, we would go through the sex offender registry and we would knock on all their doors and ask, and we could go in and check their houses too, because that was part, that was a part of their parole. So we went into many, many houses and it was just like, yeah.

[Ashley Merchant]

Oh, I'm sure. I'm sure you've gone and done all those interviews. I'm sure they've done that here. I'm curious, while we have you, about this bitcoin activity. So I just keep thinking, you know, it's bitcoin. That tells me it's sophisticated. But why is the FBI not sending some money to this bitcoin account to try and trace it just to see if these ransom notes are real? I mean, what do you think about.

[Phil Holloway]

What that 300 was?

[Ashley Merchant]

Yes. Well, I mean, that's. But did they get anything from that?

[Phil Holloway]

I don't know. I. I mean, they're being closed about it, and I. I expect them to, and I would. I would want them to.

[Ashley Merchant]

So how does that work, though? The 300? What? Walk us through that. I mean, what are they looking for? What are they. They're trying to track.

[Phil Holloway]

Looking to see. So if you. You can have. If you bitcoin.

[Ashley Merchant]

Like, I'm a bitcoin, so I'm just going to admit that I'm pretty much a bitcoin.

[Phil Holloway]

However, I do know that with a bitcoin wallet or an account, you can sign up for alerts on. For any activity on your account. And I'm sure they were just hoping that this did prompt an alert to be sent out, and maybe they could. Maybe they could grab that, but I don't know that they have, or they can actually.

[Ashley Merchant]

Right, right. Wow.

[Phil Holloway]

So it's all very. It's like, can we. Here's the pro. Here's the deal. We've gone so long with so many close calls, the odds are now in our favor that the big break is coming. And I think the big break was that video we got. Was it yesterday? The day before? I think the.

[Ashley Merchant]

The camera, the surveillance camera, and then the glass?

[Carlos]

No, the investigative activity, it really sprung to life pretty quickly after that. And I don't know if that speaks so much. It's. I'm sure the release of the photos and the videos has a lot to do with it. But also, I think what we're seeing is the FBI taking a more active role, and I would suspect they've taken it over as the lead, although I don't think that the sheriff would confirm that. But it seems like the FBI is the one driving this train right now.

[Phil Holloway]

Well, I think the FBI should be driving the train right now. I mean, if it's a partnership and you're working together, then let the team that has the expertise in whatever area run that area and I think that has to be happening. But the ticket can still. Or what we call who's got the ticket? Whose case is it? The ticket can still belong to the sheriff and he can still enjoy, you know, reaping the benefits. But I think no one does kidnap, ransom, murders, any of these things, or kidnap ransom stuff better than the FBI or even, I mean, if this were LAPD handling it, it would be handled very differently because just the lapd, the LA County Sheriff, and I'm only naming them because I worked so closely with them all these years. They'd be doing an outstanding job and they'd be doing a great job without too much politics getting in the way. And that's what we want. No politics, all hard work.

[Ashley Merchant]

Plow find her just to find Nancy.

[Phil Holloway]

Yeah, definitely bring her home.

[Ashley Merchant]

So how many, I mean, do they send? Your experience with the FBI? I mean, are they just sending people? A ton of people. I mean, we heard that they have what, 4,000 tips? They've had some 10,000 plus phone calls. I mean, what does it look like on the ground from, you know, for FBI agents?

[Phil Holloway]

Well, in the command post, you'd have a bunch of analysts, a bunch of agents and someone overseeing the whole process. They'd be triaging all of these tips and leads coming in and they would be shipping, shipping them out or essentially assigning them to investigators. And they're assigning them probably to sheriff's deputies, police officer, whoever is on scene and part of the task force. You're all part of one team at this point. And so they would say, hey, you know, a tip maybe came in. I saw a car at this longitude and latitude, and there was a guy standing out there, probably going to the bathroom and boom. That you're going to dispatch people to that right now. And you're going to probably dispatch evidence response team members. And so that's how it's working. And it is a flurry of activity. It's one of the most exciting places to be, believe it or not.

[Ashley Merchant]

It sounds exciting.

[Phil Holloway]

It is. It's very, very exciting. And I've never ever seen a movie capture that excitement. That's how exciting it is.

[Carlos]

Wow.

[Ashley Merchant]

And the ransom movies are pretty cool. I mean, they are. They are pretty intense. It's pretty emotional, though. It's pretty scary what's going on.

[Phil Holloway]

Wow.

[Ashley Merchant]

Well, thank you so much for joining us, Maureen. Yeah, it was great to have you. Great insight. We really appreciate it. We hope you have a great day.

[Carlos]

Yeah, thanks so much.

[Phil Holloway]

Absolutely. And stay safe out there, Phil.

[Carlos]

Well, I, you know, I'm. I'm. Look, I'm. I don't think I'm in any danger, maybe just of melting, but that's probably it for now, but thank you so much. Right.

[Phil Holloway]

Cactus. We don't want that.

[Carlos]

Yeah.

[Ashley Merchant]

Oh, my gosh. Well, hopefully you'll bring warm weather back when you come back to Georgia. Although it is kind of warm here now. So I'm ready. I think we're all ready for spring. Good. All right, well, thank you so much. Up next, we've got your question on the Guthrie case and also our closing arguments. Stay tuned.

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[Ashley Merchant]

Hey, girl.

[Carlos]

What's happen?

[Ashley Merchant]

Is that your antiperspirant?

[Carlos]

Yeah.

[Ashley Merchant]

Let me see that can. Aluminum, butane. I cannot pronounce that. You have to switch to native deodorant. Native's simple formula has only clean ingredients. It gives you effective 72 hour odor protection with no hydrocarbon propellants.

[Carlos]

Wow.

[Ashley Merchant]

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[Ashley Merchant]

All right, welcome back to MK True Crime. We'll get to our closing arguments, but first we have a question from Russ. Russ says. Hey, gang. Great show as always. I know they released the crime scene too early, but I think there is viable DNA from the intruder. He had a flashlight in his mouth that had to be released in order to commit his offense. Unless he spit it directly into plastic and kept it, he likely took it out with his glove. He would have had to use the light ring up until the confrontation with Mrs. Guthrie. So he probably didn't use great care. I bet they have DNA. What are your thoughts, Phil? I'm going to go to you, but I'm thinking there's DNA there.

[Carlos]

Yeah, I think that that's a really good question. By the way, our audience, whether you're listening on podcast or Sirius XM or YouTube or all the above, we get the very best questions from the folks that watch and listen to the show. And I appreciate this one because I think there is DNA out there. There's not just with that pin or the pin light. I gotta say it, it did look to me like he was holding a flashlight, like in the mouth. And just like we were discussing earlier in the show, there's lots of different ways that DNA can be transferred when somebody's touching something, even with gloves. And I guess with the flashlight holding it in the mouth, the idea is that there might be saliva and, and then skin cells from inside the mouth as well. So I just hope that the scene was preserved properly. In the initial days, I've criticized the sheriff for releasing the scene. And then, you know, you had the media out there that was able to see the blood and get videos and all that, and. And then only to have to come back and like, put crime scene tape back out again. It just made it look like almost farcical. And so my closing argument on my last show had to do with the need to preserve the integrity of a crime scene. So whatever DNA is out there, I just hope that forensically it's something that a can be located, tested, and then be admissible in court. In other words, if they made a lot of mistakes in how they collected or tested or whatever, you can absolutely destroy the evidentiary value of things like DNA and other stuff from a crime scene that's not secured.

[Ashley Merchant]

Yeah, you definitely can. So I think that's a great question. We really appreciate it. We do have amazing listeners, amazing viewers who have amazing questions. And DNA is fascinating and we talk about it a lot on this show. And if you have other questions, Phil has a special episode about it where you can get some more information. So we came to everybody's favorite part of the show. Phil, I'm going to let you start with your closing argument.

[Carlos]

All right, so we've discussed a couple times in the show today the idea that maybe the perpetrator had a phone. And I'm. I'm getting that possibility from a neighbor that I spoke to who said that, you know, when the DNA, when the FBI was there, one of the things that she believed that they were looking for specifically was a phone. And I've also heard elsewhere that there was a phone. Anyway, that may or may not turn out to be accurate. I believe it probably is. But either way, I want to talk to you just a minute about whether the police can track your phone even if it's completely turned off. And the short answer, believe it or not, is yes. The technology behind it is a lot deeper than you might think. But if you think about your last known location, like, even if your battery is totally dead, your digital footprint from that phone does not simply disappear. Authorities can get a warrant, and they can access cell site location information or data from Apple or Google or from the towers. This gives law enforcement a radius of exactly where you were standing the second the power was cut out. If you're at a specific intersection or a building when the phone died, then they already know the starting point. But in modern devices, you know, this whole idea of powering off is kind of a lie. Through low power Bluetooth beacons, newer iPhones, and Androids remain part of a global crowdsourced network for hours and sometimes even for days after you shut them down. If your. Your phone is essentially silently whispering to every other smartphone walking by, which then uploads your coordinates to the cloud, this is how the network of, like, find my phone and all that works. And it turns every stranger into a tracking beacon for your device, essentially. Then there's historical tracking. Law enforcement can use what's called a tower dump. They can look at every single phone that connected to a specific cell tower during a certain time window. And even if the phone is off for now, the record of you being near that tower 20 minutes ago, for example, is permanently stored by the carrier. So how could you actually go ghost? Well, you would need what's called a Faraday bag, which literally blocks all the radio frequencies. Or you need some kind of specialized privacy phone with special hardware that basically kills and disconnects the battery from the antenna and the other circuits in the phone. So unless that circuit is broken, the trail is never cold. So hopefully, if there is a phone in this case and law enforcement can find this digital trail of breadcrumbs, hopefully it will lead them right to the perpetrator or perpetrators.

[Ashley Merchant]

Wow, I wonder how many people are googling Faraday phone right now. Me. It's like, wait, what is that? Faraday phone bag?

[Phil Holloway]

Oh, my gosh.

[Carlos]

Yeah, Faraday bag, yeah, that's the same kind of thing that will shield your electronics from a thermonuclear electromagnetic pulse.

[Ashley Merchant]

Oh, wow. Well, their stock just Went up because everybody's googling them. I'm gonna. In just a minute. That was really cool. That was interesting. Thank you, Phil. Well, so for my closing argument, I, you know, I went back and forth and I usually like to talk about some aspect of criminal justice or, you know, defense or something like that. But today we need a little bit, something more light hearted, I think, to talk about, because this. Everything going on with Nancy Guthrie. I know we all just feel just, just awful about it, and we feel awful for Savannah and her whole family. So I'm going to tell you a story about my first experience with touch DNA. So I was a public defender. I've been practicing, God, about 24 years now, and I started out as a public defender. And so if you, you know how it works with the public defenders, you get paid. You don't get paid a lot, and you definitely don't have a lot of resources. So if I wanted money for something like a touch DNA, which, you know, 20 years ago, that was really fancy and really expensive because it had just, just started happening. It was brand new technology. If I wanted something like that for a case, I would have to go and beg and plead my boss to give me that money because it was a ton of money back then, probably still is, but a ton of money to get an independent lab. And I remember I found this super fancy lab in Texas, and I had. My investigator had this case where my client was an armed robbery and he had been convicted of armed robbery. And he swore up and down that he did not. The person that did it didn't do it. There was a cap that was found at the scene that whoever had committed the armed robbery had worn because it was on surveillance video. They found this cap. And they never tested this cap for DNA, but it was in evidence. So he convinced me on appeal. I am innocent, Ms. Merchant. I swear to God, I'm innocent. And that cap will prove it. And I said, well, sir, let me just tell you, I'll get you that money and I'll get you that DNA test. But if your DNA comes back on that cap, you are the dumbest person ever, because you are never getting out, because that is going to seal your face 100%. So I tell them all this, I say, you know, you got, you got to understand, you got to want what you're asking for. You're going to get a DNA test. So I think everybody knows where the story goes. You send it off, do all my fancy work, get it all, you know, packaged so that I don't break the chain of custody. I have to get a court order. Now, mind you, I had to tell everybody and this is what I told my client, too. I'm going to have to get a court order to get that out of evidence. What does that mean? That means the prosecutor is going to know I am getting your hat tested for DNA. And you know what that's going to mean. If it comes back you and I don't jump up and down that you're innocent, everybody in the courthouse is going to know. That's because your DNA was on that hat. Well, by God, I do all that. I send it off, I get that report back. Damn. Was his DNA not on that hat? So touch DNA, it's come a long way, but I think that was a little bit of a fun story. I hope it lightened up the mood. Touch DNA is very interesting and we talk about it a lot. So it's great to see everyone. And thank you to our guest, Maureen o'. Connell. And thank you to my co coun. My co host. I'm sorry, my co counsel. I'm so used to being in court and you know, Phil is in court with me sometimes. My co host, Phil Holloway, who is out in Arizona. Thank you for for being there, Phil. And thank you for joining us. I hope everybody has a great weekend.

[Phil Holloway]

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