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MK True Crime
New Amy Bradley Leads, Man Arrested for Halloween Display, Florida Woman Guilty of Murdering Husband
00:57:12
MK True Crime contributors Phil Holloway, Ashleigh Merchant, and Mark Eiglarsh join the show to discuss the trial of Florida woman, Daisy Link, who was found guilty of second-degree murder in the shooting death of her husband after taking the stand in her own defense, the pros and cons of putting a client on the stand, why the “likeability” of a defendant matters, Link’s eye-raising and unconventional pregnancy while awaiting trial in jail, new potential leads in the missing persons case of Amy Bradley, a woman who vanished from a cruise ship in 1998, a man who is charged with murder in the shooting of his teen daughter’s abuser announces his run for Sheriff in Arkansas, a Kentucky man is arrested for his ghoulish Halloween display, and more. Phil Holloway: https://x.com/PhilHollowayEsq Ashleigh Merchant: https://www.criminaldefenseattorneysmarietta.com Mark Eiglarsh: https://www.eiglarshlaw.com Pique: Unlock your healthiest glow and feel the difference. Get up to 2...
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- [00:00]
A
This is Alec Murdoch. I need police and an ambulance immediately.
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B
Murdoch Death in the Family Official podcast is here. I'm joining Patricia Arquette, Jason Clark and the cast to uncover all things Murdoch family first. To unravel the story piece by piece was really surprising because you don't want to believe it. Murdoch Death in the Family Official podcast Wednesdays and stream Murdoch Death in the Family on Hulu and Hulu on Disney for bundle subscribers Terms apply. Ondeck is built to back small businesses like yours. Whether you're buying equipment, expanding your team or bridging cash flow gaps, Ondeck's loans up to $250,000 help make it happen fast. Rated A by the Better Business Bureau and earning thousands of five star trust pilot reviews, Ondeck delivers funding you can count on. Apply in minutes@ondeck.com depending on certain loan attributes, your business loan may be issued by Ondeck or Celtic Bank. Ondeck does not lend in North Dakota. All loans an amount subject to lender Approv.
- [01:03]
A
Welcome to MK True Crime. I'm Phil Holloway, a criminal lawyer, a former prosecutor and former police officer out of Atlanta, Georgia. Here's what's on our docket today. We start in Florida with Daisy Link who has just been found guilty of murder. We'll catch you up to speed on all the latest. And we have possible leads emerging in the missing person case of Amy Bradley, a woman who went missing nearly 30 years ago in 1998 from a cruise ship in the Caribbean. We'll bring you the latest. And then we have an Arkansas father who is facing a second degree murder charge in the fatal shooting of a man, a 67 year old man who was accused of grooming and sexually assaulting his then 13 year old daughter. This man's running for sheriff. Does he have a chance? We'll break that down with my panel. My fellow contributors join me today. We have Ashley Merchant, a fellow criminal defense lawyer in Atlanta and the woman who likes I like to refer to as the Aaron Brockovich of the Fannie Willis fiasco in Fulton County, Georgia. And we have Mark Iguar's criminal defense lawyer, former prosecutor and author who you can find at speak to mark.com so we start with the Daisy Link trial this week and as I said, we just got breaking news. She has been found guilty. Now to catch you up on this. Daisy Link is a Florida woman. She was charged with second degree murder in the 2022 killing of of her husband Pedro Jimenez. Prosecutors said Daisy fired out of rage while Jimenez was running away in fear for his life. But the defense offered testimony that Daisy shot Pedro in self defense. The jury clearly didn't buy that. We're going to get into it and I'm going to have to start, of course, with Mark Iglosh, because he is there in Florida. This is his backyard, Mark. But before we do that, I want to take a look and listen to SOT1, which is testimony that the jury did not buy, which was Daisy testifying about this shooting and what her intent was at the time.
- [03:10]
C
He told me that he was going to lock me out of the house and that I was going to sleep outside. When I began to walk towards him and I said, no, you're not. You're going to leave. He said, I don't give a fuck, bitch. I'm ready to die. You could kill me. And he began to run towards the house.
- [03:26]
D
And what did you do when you see him running towards the house to lock you out?
- [03:31]
C
I took the shot.
- [03:34]
D
Were you aiming to hit him?
- [03:37]
C
I initially aimed towards the floor. As I lifted up the gun, I didn't expect for it to hit him. I. I just thought the sound was going to scare him off this time for. For good.
- [03:49]
A
Mark. Investigators said they identified a, an atypical pattern of domestic violence in the relationship. Atypical in the sense that it's the female being the aggressor. There was a 915 days before the shooting which documented Link's attack on Jimenez with a skateboard mark while he was inside his vehicle attempting to flee. So this is your backyard. You know, a lot of the players involved down there. Help us understand this case and what's going on and what's just happened.
- [04:21]
D
Yeah, it's real simple. 90 minutes. That's how long it took for the jury to deliberate. You take away bathroom breaks, you take away how long it takes to pick a four person. There's not much time left. It was very clear to them that her self defense claim was bogus. The charge was second degree murder. So they have to show that she had a depraved heart, which means it was a willful and wanton disregard of human life or property. Her own testimony, if you believe it, supported that claim. Shooting a gun at someone, running away down at their feet, assuming that's really where you were aiming, is a reckless disregard for human life or property. Another way to say it is if somehow they were to acquit this conduct. That means anyone under like circumstances can shoot down at somebody's legs. And if that bullet ricochets and hits a child, well, that person shouldn't be held criminally responsible because they were justified in the shooting. No. Call 91 1. Do something else. I think the jury got it right.
- [05:26]
A
Well, actually, Link's defense contended that Jimenez was the aggressor, having beaten her with a gun days before this final confrontation. They also allege that the defense did that Jimenez fired a shot at Link, at Link in front of children. And prosecutors said that when Link initially contacted the police after the shooting, she admitted Ashley to being the aggressor in the argument and but stated that she merely wanted to scare the victim. But we have some video, we have some video of what happened, I guess right after the shooting. Let's go ahead and roll SOT2 and I want to speak with you, Ashley, about this. You'll be fine. You'll be fine. I mean that's, that's kind of, that's kind of cold, right? When you see someone shooting down someone. And by the way, this is the jury believe that she was the aggressor and she was the woman who was doing all the battering in this relationship. So what have you ever seen like a case that has this kind of video where she's literally telling someone you'll be fine as they're laying there bleeding out?
- [06:41]
E
Unfortunately, that reminds me of a case I had where my client actually was on the 911 call saying, I'm going to get you, bitch. And then you hear the fire go off. The fire, you know, the shotgun you got on probation.
- [06:54]
D
I'm sure, I'm sure.
- [06:56]
E
Yeah.
- [06:56]
D
That good.
- [06:58]
E
This is what I would like to call an imperfect self defense case. You know, they are arguing self defense because what else are they going to argue? But really what they're trying to argue, it's, this is a public service shooting. This is a guy that was a jerk and he was an abuser and you know, he deserved to be shot at. I think that's kind of what they were trying to argue. The problem is, if you looked at her that first shot you played, she is not likable, she is not sympathetic. And when you've got a case of imperfect self defense, when you've got something where you want the jury to essentially what we call nullify, you want them to say, well, you know, it doesn't really fit self defense 100%, but we're going to give her a pass anyway. She needs to be up there and she needs to look sympathetic. She needs to look like she is a good person, a good mother, a good human being, not someone who is Right up in there throwing the punches right back with him. She had her son testify. Know if that backfired on her, I mean, I can tell you, I'm sure there's moms on that jury. As a mom myself, I don't love it when you put your kid up there and you try to use your child to help you out. You know, that just kind of probably rubbed some of the jurors the wrong way. And you know, the judge had an opportunity at first and this is what happens in all jurisdictions. You know, we have these stand your ground laws. So the judge has the opportunity at first to determine whether or not they believe there was self defense. And if there isn't, then it goes to the jury. Well, you're really using that at this point not to win on self defense, but to get what I call jury nullification. You know, that, that public service shooting. And she really needed to be a whole lot more likable for that to work.
- [08:28]
A
Well, speaking of likable. Right. So the prosecutors were able to bring in evidence in this case that link lied to 911 about the identities of the folks and she. There was a 10 minute wait and all this stuff, it's almost like you can see who is trying to. Now there's. The victim of course, is dead and can't refute any of this. And it's almost like she's weaving this fake story using some bits of truth and maybe certain things that are fabricated to try to, to try to put a square peg in a round hole. It's almost like the battered spouse type of defense. Right. But it doesn't exactly fit that. It doesn't exactly fit traditional self defense in that, you know, she was, you know, somebody pulled a gun on her and she was firing back. And self def. It wasn't any of those kinds of things either. And then to bring in the son, who is Pedro Jr. To say, you know, that he saw his father previously shoot at his mother and that he also said that he was there testifying to quote, get his mom out of jail or something like that.
- [09:40]
E
Right.
- [09:40]
A
So all of this together, when you put all this together, you've got a jury that just is probably not liking any of this, not buying what the defense is selling. One bitmark.
- [09:50]
D
Yeah, I agree with everything that you guys have said. The 911 call, they waited 10 minutes as the guy's bleeding out. That shows a reckless indifference to human life. Also the cross examination, the prosecutor was able to say, and you lied to this person and then you lied to this person, all the lying she did, shows consciousness of guilt. And the final thing is, I'm sure that the prosecutor focused on the I word, imminent. In other words, you cannot use deadly force unless what you fear is imminent. So maybe they proved that there had been domestic violence in the past, maybe as recent as that morning. But jurors are supposed to focus as they did. What occurred right when she pulled the trigger? Was she facing imminent death or great bodily harm? And the answer is, as he's running and she's firing at him by her own statements, that's not what occurred.
- [10:45]
A
Well, you know, Ashley, we all have to decide when we try these cases whether we're going to have the client testify. But it's not really the lawyer's decision. It's ultimately the client's decision. And, you know, we'll never know what the conversation was like between her and her counsel. But I've got to wonder about the decision to have her testify when the entire defense is going to hang on, you know, her credibility at that point before she testifies. It hangs on the credibility of the state's evidence. But when a defendant takes the stand and opens their mouth, suddenly their credibility is what the trial literally hangs on. And so if you have evidence that she's lied during the investigation, that just doesn't bode well, does it, for having your client testify?
- [11:31]
E
No, not at all. And I'm one of those lawyers, you know, where I want to put my client up if I can. You know, I want to. I think the jury wants to hear from them. Clients want to speak. You know, they should be able to tell their truth. This is one of those situations where when I watched her testify, I just cringed because she is not helping herself. I mean, definitely, you know, and I'm a true defense law lawyer. So I'm looking at it like, are you, you know, are you able to put this through? Are you able to make this sympathetic to the jury? I think if she had gotten up there and she had looked like a battered spouse, if she had actually. If you felt bad for her, you didn't feel bad for her at all. When she's on the stand, I mean, she 100% blew it. And I do kind of feel for those defense lawyers because a lot of times, you know, we guide our clients to the right decision, but they may not always make the right decision. And this is one of those decisions that is 100% a client's decision, whether or not they want to testify. I mean, I can do everything in my power, and I Have done everything in my power to sway that decision one way or another. But ultimately it's their choice. And you know, sometimes I'll tell my client, and I imagine the defense lawyer probably said this, you know, this is your case to lose when you get up there. And I think she lost it.
- [12:31]
D
Ashley, I'm shocked. I am. Wait, wait, Phil. I want to know what your thoughts are too, where you stand. I'm the opposite of Ashley. The last thing I want to do is put my client up there. A fish who kept his mouth shut never got caught. They're not subjected to cross examination. Most don't look well. And it's literally like a Hail Mary. I understand why they had to do it here. Self defense case. Most of the time you got to do it. Phil, where do you stand? You in the eye.
- [12:53]
E
I represent only innocent people.
- [12:56]
A
It depends on the facts of the case. But I have one of the most spectacular losses in my career was a trial that I didn't think that I should lose. But once the, the client decided to testify, it kind of went south. So look, you've been burned a few times. You know, you're very, very cautious about doing it. But look, the jury has spoken guilty on all counts. And so that's going to. We're going to leave it there for the trial itself. But there's more to this case that we've got to get into before we move on to Amy Bradley. No, we're going to go. We got to get to Amy Bradley. So here's the thing. There's a interesting side story to this case, right? She got pregnant, guys, while she was in jail and she was in the women's part. There was no commingling of the genders or the sexes in the jail where she was. But she got pregnant and she gave birth while she was in jail. And to explain it all, we have some video. So let's go ahead and roll SOT3 and check that out.
- [13:53]
C
It's a real twist. It is some. Everybody says it. To me, it's. This is like some Lifetime Movie Network.
- [14:00]
B
The DNA results show inmate number 200147865. Joanne Dep is the baby's father.
- [14:08]
A
This call is from the Miami Dade.
- [14:10]
F
Metro West Detention Center.
- [14:12]
B
So you guys have never physically touched each other?
- [14:14]
A
Never. Like the Virgin Mary?
- [14:18]
B
The big question here is how did this happen?
- [14:23]
C
Through the vent.
- [14:24]
A
I put the semen in a Saran Wrap every day, like five times a day for like a month straight.
- [14:31]
C
He would kind of like roll it up almost like A cigarette, and he would attach it to the line that we had in the vent, and I would pull it through from there. I had placed it inside of. It was, you know, the yeast infections, The. It's the. The yeast infection applicators. I had placed it inside of there, and then from there, Yeah, I administered it.
- [14:58]
A
All right, so I'll probably never say the words. Semen, Saran wrap, yeast application, yeast infection applicator again. On air. Never.
- [15:09]
D
I won my bet.
- [15:10]
A
That's what we're talking about. So I've got to find out, is this Mark, what commonly happens in the jail down there in Miami where you are?
- [15:18]
D
No, and just so we're clear, I wanted them to know about what she's facing, so they need to keep an eye on her for the next 25 year, minimum mandatory, up to life here in Florida, because the jurors found specifically that she used a firearm and she discharged it. Under our 10, 20 life law, she'll now be in prison for a minimum of 25 years, minimum mandatory, day for day, no parole, no time off. So 25 years up, and they need to keep an eye on her to make sure she has no more conjugal connections. Without conjugal.
- [15:50]
A
It's not like a conjugal visit. It's a through the vent thing.
- [15:53]
D
Yes, well, somehow, Listen, I'm embarrassed. That's my jail. This is my local jail. And his baby batter is swimming through vents. That cannot happen. That should never happen. Somebody should be under investigation for this. The same way they're passing that substance through the vents, they could be passing other stuff, and they likely are. That needs to come to an end, and someone needs to be held responsible.
- [16:17]
E
Mark, do they share like the. Do the women pod join the men's pod? I mean, this is crazy. Are they all there together?
- [16:24]
D
I never thought that. And the answer's no. They're on different floors, apparently, but the vents were connected. That cannot happen anymore. They moved him to metro west, a much further, different jail from her. But he'll find a way. Through pigeons. This is outrageous.
- [16:40]
E
Well, I wonder if other inmates are gonna do this.
- [16:42]
A
Yeah, we kind of laugh about this a little bit because it is so outrageous, but it's really also kind of sad. And, Mark, you talked about this before air. I mean, look, this is a human being that was brought into this world under the most horrible circumstances. And actually, you know, what do you think is likely to happen with this child, with this baby now that's been born, whose, you know, father, I guess, was locked up for Murder. Mom's now been convicted of murder, brought into the world under the most egregious of circumstances. And it wasn't like people that were in love with each other and wanted to make a family and this sort of thing. This was. No, she did this so that she could. Thought it was her ticket out of jail, actually. How is that baby going to be raised now?
- [17:29]
E
Well, you've got two parents, both in jail for murder. So, you know, typically you would go into child protective services somewhere in foster care. But both of these people have parents. And so this lady, Daisy's mom is probably going to be raising this child, which gives me a little bit of pause because she raised Daisy and this guy was raised by his parents. And I'm not saying that they're responsible for their children, but I'm saying maybe they aren't the best parents ever to raise this poor little child. Child. But the problem is with our, with our system, it's going to go to the, you know, next. It's called fictive kin. The next kin, it's going to go to a grandparent, it's going to go to a sibling, something like that. And they're going to be the ones that raised this.
- [18:07]
D
I understood that it was his parents who are raising the child right now. That doesn't make me feel any better. I can imagine the day where she innocently says the child says, you know, tell me about how I was conceived, mommy and daddy, and has to hear this pathetic story. But Phil wasn't speculating, by the way. There is. I saw the footage of her speaking with her mother, Daisy speaking with the mother and saying that she got pregnant so that then the judge and the system will take pity on her and she'll be able to get out. That is the most selfish act that a human being can engage in with such sad consequences that this child came from that selfishness. It really troubles me. And again, someone is responsible for this.
- [18:53]
A
Yeah. So News Nation reported on this and I pull the. We have the quote pulled from courtesy of News Nation. This is a quote. I'm link said quote, I'm going to sue them and get out. Referring to the. I guess the county and the police, you know, how much I can sue them for. She said, this is all planned. I can get out now. And then her mother responded, you know what? You're stupid. And her mother's right, because this was not only stupid, this was awful. It was a horrific thing to do to this child, to cause. To bring the child into the world, into those circumstances. Is just just ridiculous to me.
- [19:30]
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- [21:08]
A
I want to move on to Amy Bradley. Okay, you guys remember anything about Amy Bradley from almost 30 years old ago? This was a case. Just to bring you up to speed on it, 23 year old Amy Bradley vanished overnight from Royal Caribbean Cruise, a Royal Caribbean cruise ship that she and her family were vacationing on. A thorough search of the shield ship, excuse me, yielded no trace of the recent college graduate, leading officials to suspect that Bradley likely jumped or fell overboard on her way to Curacao. Tragically, her body was never found, and over the decades, multiple individuals have reported seeing Bradley alive on the Dutch Caribbean island, as well as an alleged sighting in Aruba. Her family has consistently dismissed the possibility of an accident or suicide, but there's a documentary called Amy Bradley Is Missing that presents some compelling evidence that suggests that she may have been trafficked off that boat, possibly by crew members. Let's go ahead and roll slot four, which is the Amy Bradley Is Missing Netflix trailer, and then we'll talk about that on the other side. Welcome aboard the Ms. Rhapsody of the.
- [22:18]
E
Seas Amy Bradley was 23 and she was on her family vacation.
- [22:23]
D
The water was crystal clear, life is good, everything's great. Told us here tomorrow and went to bed. Around 5:30 in the morning. I saw Amy on the balcony, 6 o', clock, woke up again, she wasn't there.
- [22:41]
A
He said, I've been looking for Amy and I can't find her.
- [22:44]
E
We check every inch of the ship.
- [22:48]
D
Captain came in.
- [22:50]
E
He says the FBI have searched your.
- [22:53]
A
Daughter'S knob on this boat.
- [22:54]
G
Just so many theories if she fell off.
- [22:57]
D
Something with a voice to show.
- [22:59]
A
That night I saw Amy and this guy that working on the boat. I got a bad vibe. Somebody saw something.
- [23:05]
H
Please let her go.
- [23:06]
D
Somebody heard something.
- [23:07]
E
I have information. We need to have answers.
- [23:13]
D
She's still out there somewhere.
- [23:18]
A
All right. Actually we've got a, we've got a mystery on our hands. Usually when we hear of people who disappear from cruise ships, we never see or hear anything from them again. But Netflix says that there's a source coming forward that says that she may have been trafficked off of that ship. And of course now we also have mysterious Internet pings, I guess from a boat that's offshore down there in the Caribbean that visit the website dedicated to this case at holidays and certain, I guess moments in life that we all want to miss our families, the holidays and birthdays and, and things like that. Ashley, what do you make of any of these, these new leads? Is this going to pan out?
- [24:03]
E
I think all of those leads are coincidence. So let's just take them one by one. The lead about the IP pings, people tend to be more on random social media sites or you know, scrolling things around the holidays that happens if you think about it, you know, during the normal week you're working, you're doing your normal thing around the holidays, you tend to be looking at that stuff more. So maybe people are coming home and saying, hey, have you heard any updates on this case? Oh, I don't know. I'll go and look at the website. That's probably why there's more IP traffic around holidays. That's normal. Families in that area probably talk about this. Hey, do you remember that case? Oh, let's check up. You know, that's their Thanksgiving dinner time conversations. I don't think that there's any evidence that this lady was trafficked. And I think that this is a situation and I understand. I'm sure the family wants that to be the case because that means their loved one is still alive. That leaves them some hope. But that is not the Most likely solution. And what you've got is you've got a lady who she, you know, she had partied all night. She had been drinking. She was seen at 4am she was seen on her balcony lounger around 5:30. So we know she had been drinking, sort of passed out on her balcony. And then she was gone at 6. She fell overboard. I know she was a strong swimmer, but she fell overboard. She was on the eighth or ninth floor. And I know that they searched that area, but it is a big ocean. There's a lot of things that can happen. And so it's most likely that she's deceased. The other thing that I think, you know, with all these new leads that are coming forward, and I'm certainly not saying anything disparaging about these areas. I've been to Aruba. I've been to Carousel. I've actually been on the same cruise line with this same cruise trip. These are wonderful islands, very friendly people. But there is a financial reward in this case. And a lot of times, if you've been to these islands, there's a lot of f. Folks trying to sell you things, trying to get you to buy things. You know, the reward, it. It does it all the time. It brings out leads that don't pan out. It may be more likely that the leads are something that just aren't panning out. And these people want these rewards. And so they're saying, oh, we saw her hoping that they're going to get a reward or maybe even get on tv.
- [25:55]
A
Mark, I. I really want to believe these leads. I want to believe she's alive because this is the kind of thing that fascinates me. But now Ashley's kind of rained on my parade, so to speak. What do you think?
- [26:07]
D
I'll bring you back. I'll bring you back.
- [26:08]
A
What do you think? All right.
- [26:10]
D
I'll bring you back. I disagree with Natalie. Sorry, not Natalie. With Ashley.
- [26:15]
E
It happens so often.
- [26:16]
D
Yeah, I disagree with everybody. No. Okay. First, I did watch very carefully this documentary. And by the way, it's really frustrating because unlike other great true crime documentaries, you get a great outcome at the end. This one leaves you feeling like, my God, nobody's being punished. We don't know what happened. And I've been on this ship before with my family. My wife is going on a Royal Caribbean cruise tomorrow. We're going in December on another one. We are a big cruise family. I watched very carefully this documentary, and I believe not. Cause just. I wanna believe. But the evidence seemed to suggest that she was trafficked that she didn't kill herself. The family absolutely did not give any signs that she was depressed, she was looking to kill herself, she wanted a way out. And all the clues seem to suggest she was taken off that ship some way. So I believe that there's hope. Unfortunately, it's been decades and her life is probably miserable and has been torturous, but I do believe she's out there.
- [27:13]
A
I'll tell you real quick before we move on to the Arkansas and Kentucky cases that were that are coming up, I got to say, about these IP hits, this to me is the most fascinating. The idea is that there's this site and it's being professionally monitored as a site related to her disappearance. It's being monitored for activity. The idea being that Bradley herself may be using it as a way of feeling connected with her family. There's activity in the Curacao region that has been spiking around holidays and special occasions. So the theory is that maybe it's her captors using it to keep tabs on the investigation, or perhaps it's her herself checking in on things, checking in on family. They, they've traced these IP hits to a device off a boat on the west end of Barbados, or so we're told. And so let's go ahead and run SOT5, which is witness David Carmichael and his theory about these IP hits.
- [28:14]
G
So we start taking pictures of Amy's family and we start putting that information up there.
- [28:19]
A
There.
- [28:20]
G
I start pulling out all the IP addresses. It tells us how many times that IP address visited the site. It tells us what pages they went on and how long they rested on that page. Why, why, why, why, why on birthdays, anniversaries, Christmas, does somebody keep hitting that site? They dwell on Thanksgiving, Christmas, birthdays, and hitting it from Curacao, hitting it from Barbados. Sit there for 45 minutes or something. It doesn't make sense. So here's my theory, and it's just that it's either the people that are involved in this are curious and they want to know how close they are to being caught. Second thing is, it's Amy.
- [29:21]
A
All right. Well, it's a mystery indeed. All right, we'll leave it there until we have more information. Up next, a man who is facing second degree murder charges is running for sheriff in Arkansas. And a Kentucky man is arrested for his Halloween display. Are there First Amendment issues there? If you have any questions or comments, we always want to hear from you, our audience. You can contact us by email@mk truecrimevilmaycare media.com we would love to hear from you about anything that we're talking about. Any questions or comments? What we're doing right, what we're doing wrong, hit us up.
- [30:00]
F
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- [31:08]
B
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- [32:05]
A
In 20, Aaron Spencer's 13 year old daughter went missing from her room. Aaron found his daughter in a 67 year old man's car after midnight. That man, Michael Foster, was out on bond facing dozens of charges including Internet stalking of a child and sexual assault. So Aaron gunned him down right There. Now Aaron Spencer is awaiting trial on second degree murder charges. And while he's waiting for his trial, he's also running for sheriff. Let's roll the sheriff candidates election announcement. And then I want to talk with my panel about this one.
- [32:51]
H
Hello, Lonoke. My name is Aaron Spencer. Many of you know my story. I'm the father who acted to protect his daughter when the system failed. I'm also a husband, a combat veteran of the 82nd Airborne Division, a contractor and a farmer. And through my own fight for justice, I have seen firsthand the failures in law enforcement and in our circuit court. And I refuse to stand by while others face these same failures. That's why I'm announcing my candidacy to run for Loanoke County Sheriff. This campaign isn't about me. It's about every parent, every neighbor, every family who deserves to feel safe in their homes and safe in their community. It's about restoring trust where neighbors know law enforcement is on their side and families know that they will not be left alone in a moment of need. Together we can build a safer, stronger loan Oak county for every family. I'm Aaron Spencer and I'm running for sheriff of Lonoke County.
- [33:54]
A
All right, so before we get into this, because I feel like between the three of us this might be a lively discussion, there might be some differences of opinion here. So Spencer is accused of gunning down Fossler on October 8, 2024 after he found him driving with his daughter just after midnight. Despite the no contact or this is apparently an abduction of the 13 year old girl from her house. And this apparently was moments before the shooting happened. So the defendant found Fossler's truck, he rammed the vehicle off the road and shot him dead during the altercation. He goes on to say, this campaign isn't about me. It's about every parent, every neighbor and every family who deserves to be feel safe in their homes and in their community. All right, let me start with you, Ashley. Tell me here, is there a viable defense to this? I mean, he's obviously admitted to the shooting. That doesn't seem to be in dispute. But is this a defensible case?
- [34:52]
E
Well, that's interesting how you asked. Viable defense. Oh, there's definitely a defense. I don't know if it's viable. I mean, honestly, he did it. He shot him in cold blood like it was calculated. It's. That's malice murder, 100%. But I love this guy. I mean, this is a crazy, crazy whatever. Whoever came up with this, if his defense attorney came up with it or he came up with it. This is a brilliant move. He is running for sheriff. He is marketing himself to the same people that are going to serve as his jurors. Are you kidding me? He is going to be able to bring out facts that he could not get admitted in court, but he's going to be able to pitch it to these folks. And he's supposed to be because he's running for office. I mean, it's. It's literally. It's an insane, brilliant strategy if that's what it is.
- [35:37]
A
Mark, I feel like you're going to have a little bit different take here, maybe some. Some similarities, but go ahead and tell us what's. What's right or wrong with this defense. Mark.
- [35:47]
D
Mark, I feel like I'm disagreeing with Ashley a lot, but let's. Let's start with what we agree with. Yeah, the guy seems cool. You know, he. He. I'm not going to lose any sleep over this guy no longer being on earth. Okay? And I like that he served our country, and I like the chutzpah of him running for office at a time that, you know, he should possibly be worried about going to prison for the rest of his life. All right, now let's talk about reality. Was his life in imminent danger at the time that he committed the act to justify gunning someone down? And the obvious answer is no. So what Ashley's hoping for is the same thing this guy's lawyer is hoping for. A jury pardon where they say in spite of the law on self defense, we're okay with that. That should really scare you because then this guy is going to be head of the police force. You're going to have Dexter running around executing people, and his people are following him, will somehow be okay with that as long as they've done something really bad, it's justified. That's kind of scary. That's not necessarily somebody you want leading your police force.
- [36:52]
A
Well, so here's the thing. I think that you both make good points, but Mark, that might be a little bit of hyperbole because, you know, it's not like Dexter. This is in many states, mine included in Georgia. You know, you don't have to be in imminent danger of losing your life to use deadly force. You can use deadly force to prevent a forcible felony. And last time I checked, kidnapping a 13 year old from her house, you know, it's in progress. You're authorized to use deadly force to end that felony. It's a forcible felony. And you're saving her life, you're getting closer to her. You can use deadly force to prevent a sexual assault. So, you know, there's lots of other ways to look at this. This jury nullification is one of them. That's, that's gotta be a part of this defense. But you know, you can use deadly force to prevent someone from committing a forcible felony. And I think that's what this man did. I think it was fully justified. I think that he should never have been arrested, let alone prosecuted, and a jury should not find him guilty. To me, it's crystal clear. Ashley mentioned it being malice murder. I don't think that this shows malice. I think that maybe there was some provocation. How about taking Your daughter, your 13 year old, and kidnapping her out of your house? That would be provocation, entitling you under the law to take some immediate action. So I don't see it quite the way either of you do. Either way you do, and I respect your opinions immensely. But let me respond. I think that this was not a crime. I don't think he should have been arrested. I think he should be set free. And quite frankly, I think he should be elected sheriff of that community. Because. Because that would be a welcome change. That's just my opinion.
- [38:36]
D
So first of all, thank you because I appreciated your argument. And you move the needle in terms of the legal argument that they're gonna be making that it's not necessarily self defense or defense of others, it's okay, he's in the process of committing a forcible felony. Love it. Great. And that's why I refer and think you're, you know, you should take all the cases in Georgia, you're great. And split them with actions.
- [38:57]
E
Think about this, Think about it.
- [38:58]
D
But hold on, I got it.
- [38:59]
A
There's a button here.
- [39:00]
D
Let me finish with the but. Let me just finish with the but. I think that that law is there to ensure that when somebody's in the process, let's say, of kidnapping, your last resort then is to pull the trigger and execute. Had he just pulled out a gun and said, come here, honey, let's go, that's one thing. But does the law allow you to then pull the trigger and execute the man when there's potentially other ways to get, get your daughter back again? If those are the facts, if he could have just pulled out the gun, that's one thing. But to then just shoot him dead, that might go too far. But I still think a jury may choose your route and go, you know what? It's excusable.
- [39:39]
A
Oh, he didn't just shoot him dead. He ran him, he rammed him and then he shot him. And yes, I think the law allows him to use that deadly force because I think it's a kidnapping in progress and you don't have to wait for who knows if that man is allowed to proceed. The 67 year old, maybe he's got a gun. Maybe he's about to pull it out and blow her away. The, the pursuing father I don't think has to wait for the worst result to occur. I think he's entitled to take some preventive action. I think it was warranted and I think it's justified.
- [40:09]
D
But you make a great argument. You do, you do.
- [40:12]
A
Just my opinion. I welcome you.
- [40:13]
D
Great argument.
- [40:15]
A
We've got another case to talk about here. We've got a, we've got a man who is in jail for a Halloween display, right? Do you guys hear about this one? Kentucky man facing charges over his Halloween decorations, allegedly depicting. Depicting local officials in fake body bags. Okay, we've got 58 year old Stephen Markham. He's displayed fake hanging body bags which we've got on the screen now for those watching on video. And look, he, he says that he, he wants the district judge and the mayor, I guess, to have ropes around their necks. And he puts this out on his lawn for the Halloween season. Ashley, is there a first amendment problem or can he do this or should he have been charged? What's your take?
- [41:04]
E
I want to go to trial for this guy tomorrow. This guy. I mean, come on, this is America. You can put a mayor on your, you can put the word mayor on a tombstone in your yard. You can do that. I have put different people's names in jest on tombstones in my yard because I'm a big Halloween fan. I mean, I think this is completely reasonable. And you know, if you think about it, this is the type of guy who's gonna do this because he's got issues with the government. The government's fining him everything. He's got ordinance violations. He is off and he is making a statement. And that is what we're allowed to do in America. He's not trying to incite violence. He's charged with terroristic threats. That's ridiculous. He's not telling someone to go out and hang the mayor. He is making a joke. He is putting out there about how he feels about government, about how he feels about the local government and how they're treating him. And that's just ridiculous. To charge this poor Man, Mark.
- [41:56]
D
I'm not just going to disagree with her because I want to. But let's go to Virginia vs. Black. It was a U.S. supreme Court case, 2003. There was burning of crosses and the Supreme Court said that is constitutionally protected even though it's outrageous and offensive unless the intent was to threaten or intimidate. So now the question becomes, and I have to take a closer look at this display. It's fact sensitive. Was it too intimidate to threaten to do those types of things if that was the intent? There's a line of cases which say noose around the neck of goblins or like Ashley was talking about, like some tombstones with just some generic kill, die, whatever. But when you specifically put people that those other people can identify and recognize, you put a noose around the neck, you move closer to intimidation. I'm not saying that the appellate court won't give wide latitude because they generally will. If there's a way to say it's constitutionally protected, the Supreme Court will do that. But I think it's a closer call.
- [43:04]
A
All right. Well, actually, one day next week I'm going to drive over and check out your yard Halloween displays to see if you've got, you know, my, my headstone and Mark Iglarch's headstone up there. It's Halloween.
- [43:17]
E
It's all in good faith.
- [43:19]
A
Look, it is Halloween. And things, look, you're allowed to say outrageous things. You're allowed to use expressive conduct to express outrageous beliefs, things that we may find vile, things that we may find disgusting. I personally think that this was inappropriate, to say the least. That's putting it very, very mildly. I think he should not have done it it, but I think I'm with Ashley on this. I think the First Amendment guarantees all of us the right to say things that are outrageous, the things that other people hate. You know, we've, this country's been around a long time and the free expression of ideas is very, very important. We don't have to like what he did, but I do think we have to defend it. But that'll wrap it up for this segment. Okay, up next, we're going to get to your questions and we'll get to our closing arguments and our contributor rants. Stay tuned.
- [44:18]
F
When inflation jumps, when you hear the national Debt is over $37 trillion, do you ever think maybe now would be a good time to buy some gold?
- [44:25]
D
Well, you'd be right.
- [44:26]
F
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B
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- [45:50]
A
We'll get to our closing arguments and your mail, but first, Megyn Kelly is going on tour and guess what? We are going with her. Our pal and boss at MK Media is taking the show on the road. She will be coast to coast as she takes the Megyn Kelly show to a city near you. The tour starts October 23rd in Sugarland, Texas, with following stops all over the United States. My fellow MK True Crime contributors will be at several of the stops and we cannot wait to meet you. Megan believes it is now more important than ever to be talking about what is true, what is real. So get ready for an evening of no bs, no agenda, and no fear that you won't want to miss. For tickets, check out Megan Kelly.com all right, guys, I don't know about you, but I'm very excited about this. Ashley and I will be at the Atlanta Tour stop on November 8th. And Mark, I understand you're going to be in Miami. I guess Dave Ehrenberg, he's down in your neck of the woods. He'll be with you. Is that right?
- [46:53]
D
Yeah. And we'll probably talk about how our inmates are getting impregnated through semen. Being Handed down through vents. That might be the topic.
- [47:01]
A
I thought we had moved on, but anyway, no, we're going to talk about that. Yeah, I think this is going to be, I think it's going to be really cool. It's going to be really fun. And, you know, a lot of folks who are involved in this show and even the Megyn Kelly show, they, they work in different places. So it's not that they're always together at the same time. So I think there's going to be, it's going to be neat seeing a lot of folks that don't get to see each other every day. And I look forward to being with Ashley. I see Ashley a lot. Going to be awesome in court yesterday. But I think, I think we'll have our families there. I think this will be a lot of fun. I just want to encourage people. If you, if you like the Megyn Kelly Show, I mean, you're, I think you're really gonna like this tour. There's, you know, we've got graphics here that will have the locations of all of these tour stops around the country. There's one that's probably within driving or a short flight distance if it's not right in your own backyard already. So everybody who's interested, go out and check it out. And like I said, we, as the MK True Crime contributors, we love meeting people and we love talking to you all as well. And we love talking to you about true crime. And so this show is part of the family, and so we're very excited to be, even if it's a small part of this tour with Megan. Guys, what do you think?
- [48:20]
E
Can't wait.
- [48:20]
D
I can't wait. Yeah, we don't, we don't get to interact with. So, you know, it'd be nice to shake hands and, and talk to people and hear what they have to say. I'm bringing my wife. She's kicking and screaming. She has other things she wants to do that night, but she's coming with me, and we'd love to meet you all here in Miami.
- [48:37]
A
All right, well, that's, that's it for the Megyn Kelly Live, but we have our legal mailbag to get to, and we also have our closing argument. So for the legal mailbag, let's go ahead and check out what we have from Olivia. Olivia has written to us by email. And by the way, folks, Ashley Merchant, you don't know this about her, but she reads every email that comes to this show and she personally goes through them, and she will personally respond to you, I promise. Of course I jest, but I'm gonna.
- [49:10]
E
Take my shoe off next time. I thought you were serious with it.
- [49:13]
D
I really thought you were serious.
- [49:15]
A
Through the. Through the camera. Camera. All right, so Olivia writes in, though, and she says, hi, I'm married, and I'm in my late 20s. I have never needed a lawyer. And hopefully you never will. Olivia, our household is lower middle class as far as income goes. If we needed to find a lawyer, what criteria or advice would y' all give to someone in our strata? And she does say y'. All. Okay, so she's clearly from the south, like me and Ashley.
- [49:41]
D
Yeah.
- [49:42]
A
And Mark, she says, or do I just drive down the highway and dial the first number on the billboards that I see? Thank you. Well, look, I'll go first real quickly. I would say that if you're in need of a lawyer, you gotta identify what you need a lawyer for. But let's just say it's a. Let's just say it's a traffic ticket. Something pretty mild, right? You're gonna want a lawyer who practices law in that courthouse where your case is. So, like, you know, I'm licensed to practice all through the state of Georgia, but I wouldn't be the person you'd want to contact for a case way down in South Georgia. I would want to find somebody who's in that courthouse who knows the people at the courthouse, knows the judges, knows the prosecutors, knows the clerks and the staff and everybody like that, because that person is going to be able to navigate those waters more deftly than somebody who's not. If I go down to the courthouse in Miami, I'm dragging Mark with me because he knows what's going on down there. I don't. I'm a stranger. He's not a stranger. So. So that would be my advice. Mark, what do you say?
- [50:44]
D
So I think you should consider a lawyer the same way I consider when I'm going to a restaurant with my wife. I look at every review, and if they don't have close to five stars, I ain't going. So read what people are writing. Yes. There's the occasional bot that'll give one star or someone didn't like what you said on tv. But you read, and you can get an idea from prior clients whether they're satisfied or they're not.
- [51:14]
E
And you know, Phil, I would say the one thing you don't want to do is go down the street and look at billboards. Don't do that. What I would do is, I always say Referrals. I mean, it's the same thing when you're looking for a doctor. If I need a new pediatrician for my kid, I'm going to ask the other moms, do you have someone you like if you know someone who knows a lawyer? I guarantee it. And so ask for referrals and then talk to that lawyer and see if it's a good thing fit.
- [51:37]
A
All right, Olivia, there's your answer. That's a great question. Thank you so much for reaching out to us. Even though Ashley doesn't read all the email, we have folks that do look at all these emails, and we really do love hearing from you. All right, so it's time for what we call our closing arguments or maybe the occasional rant. And Mark always has good ones and Ashley always has good ones. So I'm going to go ahead and I'm going to go ladies first. We'll start with Ashley. Go ahead with your. Your rant or your closing argument.
- [52:08]
E
Such a gentleman. Thank you. And it's been a pleasure being on with both of y' all today, even if we don't agree on everything. So a few weeks ago, I said I was gonna start talking about different aspects of a criminal case and sort of go on a one minute rant about them and educate everyone and sort of give my impression of it. And today I want to talk about talking to the police. Last time I talked about when the police go to the media and release public statements about a crime happening and how they sort of taint the image of that. Now I want to talk about what happens when the police come to talk to you. Everybody thinks the truth will set you free. That is not true. The truth will not set you free. And it's not always the truth that the police are after. It gets distorted. And even if you think you're telling the truth, the police are trained in certain techniques to get you to say what they want you to say, which is not necessarily the truth. People see all the time how folks are exonerated by DNA. Well, guess what? They're also exonerated from false confessions. The police are trained in techniques called the Reid technique. For example, if you don't know about it, look it up. R E I D. What is that? It is teaching police officers to go and isolate suspects, create vulnerabilities. Maybe if they're young, separate them from their parents. Maybe if they're mentally ill, put them in a situation that makes them feel vulnerable, makes them more likely to talk, confront them, Confront them with accusations of guilt, confront them with evidence, whether it's true or not. Can the police lie to you? Heck, yeah, they can lie to you. They're actually taught to lie to you in interrogations. What else do they do? They try to minimize things. They try to make it seem like if you just admit to it, you know, oh, well, maybe it's not so bad, you know, maybe you didn't mean to do it. And I'll tell the judge. These are all techniques to get people to say what the police want. And what happens, unfortunately, is a lot of times people say things that didn't happen because they are led down this road. And so, you know, one tip is don't obviously talk to the police without a lawyer present. But I just want to sort of enlighten everyone on how the criminal justice system works, works. And when you're giving a statement to the police, the truth is not going to set you free because it's going to be distorted.
- [54:06]
A
Excellent, excellent points. Excellent advice that all should pay attention to. And I'm sure that Mark agrees with that. Mark, what do you got, buddy? What's on your mind today?
- [54:17]
D
I wanted to share something that's kind of personal. First, like many of you, I love true crime. I can't get enough of it. I watch during lunch and dinner. I watch YouTube videos about real crimes and. And Netflix. I think I've watched every single true crime documentary, every Dateline NBC, love all that stuff. But those stories leave me feeling kind of frustrated sometimes angry, sad even. Takes a toll after a while. And then I watch MK True Crime and watch my colleagues when I'm not on. And that makes me sad. Not because of how they're doing, what they're doing. On the contrary, these stories are very heavy. But I can't get enough and I'm not going to stop. But what I do do is try to raise my happiness levels by focusing on gratitude throughout my day. Not if, but when I'm thinking about yet another creep who did something horrible, I stop and I think about what I'm grateful for. I'll pull out my iPhone and start writing. Or I'll pull out my computer and start writing things for which I'm most grateful. The last breath I took, the fact that I get to help with this program, whatever it is. My children, my wife. In fact, before I go to sleep every single night for the past 15 years, I pull out my iPhone, I go to the notes section, I write the date, I write the top five things for which I'm most grateful. What that does is gets me a double dose of that experience. I get to relive that experience again. And it fills me with joy. And also at a time that I need to clear my head and think about things that benefit me so I can get a great night's sleep, I'm focused on gratitude. Now. The only exception is that I can't repeat anything, and that gets rather challenging. So what started in 15 years ago as I'm grateful for my wife evolved to. I'm grateful for my wife for cooking me a very healthy, delicious chicken teriyaki and broccoli dinner, which has evolved to and allowed me to rub her feet on the couch while we watched a Dateline murder mystery about a woman who kills her husband. So again, shifting to an attitude of gratitude changes everything and allows me to watch True crime and raise my happiness levels when I need to. So I'd like to shift and end by thanking you all and letting you know how grateful I am that you tune in, that you send in emails, and that you're a part of this show and allowing us to do what we do do. I hope you all choose to have a wonderful day.
- [56:53]
A
All right. Well said. So I started out this show introducing my fellow panel members and fellow contributors here. And I referred to Ashley as the Erin Brockovich of the Fulton county da. Finally, Willis fiasco. Of course, that's in reference to the prosecution that she brought against President Donald Trump and many others, charging violations of Georgia's RICO law and other things. Well, it turns out that Willis has now spoken out publicly about the recent opinion by the Georgia Supreme Court. They're ruling to leave the decision of the Georgia Court of Appeals that booted her from this case to leave that in place. Not only did it boot Willis from the case, but it booted her entire office from the case. So now we have an indictment presently without a prosecutor. So you may not be surprised to learn that her comments now that she's spoken out, are, in my view, outrageous. And she's blaming everyone but herself for her case's spectacular implosion. Here's what she said. I think judges are human beings. We're living in a culture of fear. And it did not surprise me. She goes on to say there are many members of that court, the Supreme Court, I'm very fond of, but they're human beings. They have families. And I'm sure they were afraid to do anything other than that, referring to their ruling that keeps her off the case. So basically she's saying the judges are afraid. It appears to me that she means to say judges are afraid to rule against President Trump because they're somehow afraid of President Trump, never mind the trial court judge who found that her testimony was fraught with the the odor of mendacity. And of course, that means the odor of untruthfulness. He didn't believe her when she testified. So there's always somebody else to blame. It's never her fault. And that's why her this entire, I guess, fiasco is going to go down in history is just a giant Internet meme. There's lots of them out there. There's a meme that I see every day, whether it's a picture or a video, which represents this spectacular fiasco in the annals of American jurisprudence. That's it. That's my rant. But I'm not done. Okay, I've got one more thing I want to talk to you about. We have a very special bonus episode of MK True Crime that will drop on Monday. I'm interviewing David and Kristen Middleman, creators of the Forensic Lab Othram out in Texas. It's a husband and wife team, and they were crucial in identifying Bryan Coburger as the suspect in the Idaho college murder. So keep an eye out for that bonus episode. It will drop on Monday. And of course, thank you to my fellow contributors, Ashley Merchant and Mark Iglarch. And thank you, our audience, both on podcast and video, for joining us here at MK True Crime. Remember to send your story, suggestions, questions, comments to MK True Crime at WWE devilmakearmedia. Com. Thanks and have a great rest of your day.