New DISTURBING Photos Reveal Armed Masked Man at Door as Nancy Guthrie Abduction Mystery Grows, with Matt Murphy

Summary

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MK True Crime – Episode Summary

Episode:
"New DISTURBING Photos Reveal Armed Masked Man at Door as Nancy Guthrie Abduction Mystery Grows, with Matt Murphy"
Podcast: MK True Crime
Date: February 11, 2026
Host: Phil Holloway (with Dave Ehrenberg and guest Matt Murphy)

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Episode Overview

This gripping episode, broadcast from Tucson, delves into the ongoing investigation into the abduction of Nancy Guthrie, the 84-year-old mother of Today Show host Savannah Guthrie, missing now for over 10 days. Host Phil Holloway, on-site at the crime scene, is joined by legal analyst Dave Ehrenberg and renowned former homicide prosecutor Matt Murphy. Together, they analyze new evidence—including chilling images of the masked, armed perpetrator—review law enforcement's actions, dissect the ransom angle, and critique the investigation’s missteps.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Scene Setting & New Evidence

• Phil Holloway reports live from Tucson, describing the dense, cactus-filled neighborhood and the logistical challenges it poses for investigators, especially regarding trace evidence collection.
• Crucial breakthrough: Law enforcement has released new surveillance stills showing an armed, masked man at Nancy Guthrie’s door (04:37), which the hosts describe as “the stuff of nightmares.”
  • Quote, Phil Holloway [04:06]:
    “Oh, my God... gloves, he's got at least one ski mask, maybe two... if that's not the thing of nightmares, I don't know what is.”
• The perpetrator is carrying a gun in an unusual position (front, not side), which Dave Ehrenberg suggests could hint at identity or affiliations.

2. Circumstances of Abduction

• Timeline: Nancy Guthrie has been missing for 10 days.
• Physical evidence: Small droplets of blood lead from the doorway to the circular driveway—suggesting an injury but not necessarily a fatal wound, and implying a waiting getaway vehicle (08:18).
  • Quote, Phil Holloway [08:18]:
    “The blood droplets only go just a few feet and then they disappear... It’s almost like there was a vehicle waiting.”
• Unforgiving desert terrain, limited visibility on cameras, and pitch-black nights are cited as complicating factors for both the crime and the investigation.

3. Impact on Family & Savannah Guthrie’s Statements

• The episode plays gut-wrenching clips of Savannah Guthrie pleading for her mother’s return, noting the shift in her language from hopeful (she’s alive) to more resigned (hour of desperation).
  • [SOT clips at 30:53 & 31:27]

4. Theories on Motive & Perpetrator

• Both hosts and guest Matt Murphy dismiss the scenario of a random, opportunistic attack—the neighborhood’s isolation and the perpetrator’s preparedness suggest foreknowledge and planning (13:14).
• Discussion of possible links to someone close to the family, due to knowledge of camera placement and property layout.
• Dave Ehrenberg speculates a ransom motive went awry, citing lack of proof of life and blood evidence:
  • Quote, Dave Ehrenberg [07:09]:
    “My guess here is that perhaps they did want a ransom… but it went poorly and something terrible happened.”

5. Ransom Note & Public Messaging

• The family received a $6 million ransom demand delivered via TMZ—a highly unorthodox and suspicious channel, with no accompanying proof of life.
• Matt Murphy’s analysis:
  • Rejects the likelihood of a real ransom kidnapping, arguing the public manner and absence of proof of life indicate a scam or hoax.
  • Quote, Matt Murphy [34:45]:
    “I don’t think anybody’s got her anymore, guys. I don’t.”
  • Murphy warns about copycat crime risks and advocates that people who exploit families with fake ransom demands be prosecuted harshly [46:05].

6. Law Enforcement Critique

• Crime Scene Management:
  • The early release of the scene allowed media onto the property, likely contaminating key evidence (26:56).
  • Quote, Phil Holloway [26:56]:
    “They released the scene... journalists go up there... the blood’s still on the steps... this was probably... maybe a vehicle parked... If there had been some strange tire tracks, they certainly... if missed, they weren’t investigated.”
• Use of Resources:
  • The sheriff department’s Cessna aircraft, crucial for desert search and rescue, was reportedly grounded due to internal politics, causing critical response delays [21:16, 47:07].
• Sheriff Criticized for Optics:
  • News broke that the sheriff attended a basketball game during the height of the investigation, deemed “bad optics” given public attention and family desperation [26:07, 44:33].
• Mishandled Messaging:
  • A promised law enforcement sweep of both crime-related homes never materialized, confusing the public and eroding family trust [24:07].

7. Procedure and Suspect Elimination

• Discussion centers on law enforcement’s standard method: start with those closest to the victim, then expand outward (53:14).
• Tommaso, Nancy’s son-in-law, was the last to see her, but allowed consensual search—a sign, say the hosts, that there may not be strong grounds for suspicion. Nevertheless, his name dominates both media and online speculation [18:25].
• Authorities are conducting DNA swabs of staff and associates to exclude innocent parties [55:08].

8. Technology & Forensics

• The team discusses possible use of geofencing, automated license plate readers (“flock cameras”), and the potential for unique identification of the perpetrator through the newly released images (backpack, gloves, balaclava, shoes) [42:37].
• Matt Murphy wonders why it took 10 days to produce and share the perpetrator’s image, contending, “If it was obtainable, it should have been released within 24 hours” [43:47].

9. Search & Potential Outcome

• The group reluctantly agrees that the lack of developments means hopes for a safe recovery are slim.
• Matt Murphy details the challenge of recovering remains in the Arizona desert, referencing no-body homicide prosecutions.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

On the chilling masked suspect:

• Phil Holloway [04:06]: “If that's not the thing of nightmares, Dave, I don't know what is.”

On the likelihood of ransom:

• Phil Holloway [34:45]: “Why send a ransom note to TMZ... and never include proof of life?... It never was a kidnapping. I think the whole thing about the kidnapping is a hoax.”

On law enforcement’s mistakes:

• Dave Ehrenberg [27:42]: “It just seems that there are missed opportunities here and major mistakes underamplified because of the national media attention.”

On the sheriff at a basketball game:

• Matt Murphy [44:33]: “That sheriff at the frigging basketball game has bothered me ever since... Basketball’s for entertainment. I didn’t like that at all.”

On crime scene integrity:

• Phil Holloway [71:18]: “...the single most important step in any criminal investigation... is maintaining the integrity of that crime scene. The moment a crime occurs, the scene becomes a silent witness... One careless step... can contaminate, alter, or destroy evidence.”

On search prospects:

• Matt Murphy [41:32]: “Son, you can bring your dog, and I can almost guarantee you’ll find a body, but it’s not going to be the one you’re looking for.”

General advice on true crime investigation:

• Matt Murphy [53:14]: “Investigating these is almost the exact opposite of prosecuting them... You start with the people closest... and you methodically and systematically eliminate them.”

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Important Segment Timestamps

• 01:05 – Phil Holloway live from Tucson; setting the scene
• 04:06 – Chilling new images of the masked perpetrator discussed
• 08:18 – Analysis of blood evidence and theory about a waiting vehicle
• 13:14 – Discussion of the abduction’s premeditation and local terrain
• 18:25 – Suspect focus (discussion of Tommaso and family elimination)
• 21:16 – Critique of law enforcement’s failure to deploy search plane
• 26:07 – Criticisms of law enforcement practices and communication
• 30:53 – Savannah Guthrie’s ransom plea, voice clips played
• 34:45 – Expert panel analysis: kidnapping vs. hoax theory
• 41:32 – Murphy’s desert search anecdote—difficulties in body recovery
• 42:37 – Detailed breakdown of suspect's attire; potential for identification
• 43:47 – Discussion on delay in releasing photos
• 53:14 – Investigative methodology: starting with those close to the victim
• 55:08 – Forensics and the challenges of touch DNA evidence
• 71:18 – Phil’s closing remarks on the importance of preserving crime scenes

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Tone & Style

The episode balances a candid, sometimes irreverent law enforcement banter with deep compassion for the Guthrie family. The hosts pull no punches critiquing police procedure but are careful to state what can and cannot be proven, especially regarding public speculation about suspects.

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Useful for Listeners

For those who haven’t heard the episode, this summary provides a clear chronology of the case, a breakdown of the strongest theories, and expert commentary on the successes and failures in the investigation—along with insightful context for each strategic decision made by law enforcement and the family. The inclusion of direct quotes and timestamps allows listeners to quickly locate and explore segments of particular interest.

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Transcript

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[Phil Holloway]

Welcome back to MK True Crime. I'm Phil Holloway. I'm a former prosecutor, I'm a criminal lawyer, and I'm an ex cop. And to show you how dedicated we are here at MK True Crime to bringing you a superior true crime product, I'm on the ground in Tucson. We're just about five miles away from here. The disappearance of Nancy Guthrie is being watched by the world. I'll have my personal reactions from visiting the crime scene and so much more. But I'm joined today by Diamond Dave Aronberg, my friend, my pal, my co host, the Florida law man and former Palm beach county state attorney. Dave, how are you today, buddy?

[Dave Ehrenberg]

I'm good, Phil. I'm so glad you're out there. And by the way, I don't know if anyone's ever called me Diamond Dave before, but I like it. That's a David Roth reference.

[Phil Holloway]

Maybe it sticks. Maybe, maybe it sticks. I don't know.

[Commercial Narrator 2]

We.

[Phil Holloway]

Look, Dave, I want you to do me a favor. Since it's bright and everything here, I can't see much that's on my screen. Can you tell the folks what we've got on our MK True crime docket for today?

[Dave Ehrenberg]

Sure, Phil. As of this taping on Tuesday, February 10, Nancy Guthrie, 84 year old mother of today's show host Savannah Guthrie, is still missing after 10 days. She's believed to have been abducted from her home. We'll bring you all the updates and Matt Murphy, former homicide prosecutor, will join us later to analyze the investigation.

[Phil Holloway]

You know, look, you've been a prosecutor, Dave. And I'm sure the same holds true for when I was a prosecutor. And even on the defense side, when we have cases that we are needing to prepare, we like to go visit the scene of these crimes. Right. And so that's why I'm here in Tucson, because it helps me get sort of a perspective of, you know, how this all fits together. How close was Nancy Guthrie's house to her daughter Annie's house? And so when I got here yesterday, I shot a little video because I wanted to show you folks, the audience, and I'll describe it as well, after we show this video for those who are listening on Sirius XM or on podcast, because it's really important to see sort of the lay of the land that the law enforcement officers had to deal with. Okay. I just got here to the Guthrie home in Tucson, and you see this nice sign left by the neighbors, offering their prayers and their support and even some. Even some candles. But what you can see about this neighborhood is that it's very dense vegetation. The house is, you know, not too far off the street. But there's so much cacti and other shrubbery in here that this makes you wonder what obstructions a camera might. Might run into. This is a lot that's across the street from Nancy Guthrie's house. And I'm noticing just how difficult this kind of terrain would be to process, like, if you're looking for trace evidence, blood evidence, things of that nature. It's just very, very unforgiving sort of terrain. Very hard to process if this was some type of a crime scene. So, you know, Dave, now that we've got these videos and pictures of the perpetrator, I'm not even going to necessarily feel the need to call him the alleged perpetrator, because this is pretty obvious. We may not know who he is. And I do think it's a he. This was the monster that Cash patel showed us today that came up to that very door and started knocking on the camera, I guess the nest camera. He's dressed in. Oh, my God. It's like gloves. He's got at least one ski mask, maybe two that I can see there. And if that's not the thing of nightmares day, I don't know what is.

[Dave Ehrenberg]

Yeah, he has a gun in a weird place. Normally you have it on your side or maybe behind you head in, like, in his front. Maybe that gives away something where he's from. Maybe a group he's affiliated with. We don't know. But you know, how in Previous true crime cases were always very cautious to say, well, this is a person of interest, it's not a suspect. Remember in the dentist murder with his wife, we said that guy was walking away and said, we don't know if he's involved. This guy's the killer, he's involved. And I shouldn't say killer because we don't know what happened.

[Phil Holloway]

Yeah, yeah, you should.

[Dave Ehrenberg]

But it isn't, you know that every day that goes by, as a former prosecutor, you know, you just know that it's less of a chance of a. Of a happy ending here. It's just something that is so tragic and this person was involved in some way, whether as an abductor or a killer or someone, but this is someone with nefarious intentions. Clearly.

[Phil Holloway]

It's been, what, 10 days? I think that I can safely say that in all likelihood that that monster is a killer. I hope that I'm wrong. Please, if I just pray that I'm wrong. I don't think I am, unfortunately. And you know, we saw the most recent video, right, from Savannah Guthrie. She had this almost sense of just being resigned to the worst case outcome. And you know, it's just heartbreaking to hear the family sort of go through this. Can you imagine like living your days, having to, to figure out some way to wake up and eat and get dressed when, when your, your 84 year old mother has been taken and by a monster like that, I mean, how do you, how do you go through the day?

[Dave Ehrenberg]

Can't even imagine. It's like a horror movie. I mean, this is just beyond comprehension. You never feel like you're going to end up like this, that this is. You're going to be pleading on national TV in the hope that these monsters return your mother. And at first you see the different stages. Now she's saying, we will pay. And now instead of saying, we know she's out there alive, it's, we know she's out there. And so the different language is telling. And I know we have a question later about whether you should ever offer to pay, but at this stage, you just want to get whatever you can. And hopefully the public, please, will generate some more attention, some more information, maybe a response from these monsters and that could lead to their capture. But my guess here is that perhaps they did want a ransom situation to get money, but it went poorly and something terrible happened. There was a blood stain, as you know, that matches Ms. Guthrie's blood. So we know that this is the type of thing with a woman who can't Walk very well. Who needs medications for 24 hours that could go awry very easily.

[Phil Holloway]

So those blood stains and I don't know if we have this video. Hopefully we do, but there's video that was first, the first time I saw it was Brian Enten, the great investigative reporter. As soon as the crime scene was released, the first time by the sheriff, there it is on the screen. Brian goes out there and you see this is the, the blood, I would just say droplets that you see. And I remember thinking at the time that these don't. This doesn't look like the kind of like significant bleeding that you might find with like a cush, a slashed forearm or a gunshot wound or nothing like arterial for certain. That's almost like someone who's cut and it's just dropping, right? Well, blood can drop out of a body that's not living if it's, you know, it's the force of gravity that doesn't affect it. So I can't tell from this whether the victim would have been alive at the time that she was taken out that door and down that path. And it's not a long path, by the way, in the path. And this is part of one of the advantages of being there in person and being able to see it. You can see like, how close it is. There's a semicircular driveway, right? And the little portico that, from the, from the front door, the covered area that kind of goes down this path that terminates in the, in the semicircular driveway. And it's, I think it's gravel. And so it's not a, a, a far at all to try to carry somebody, especially if you have them slung over your shoulder. But that's where the blood droplets stop. They stop at the driveway. So I'm thinking, like my theory, and by the way, where I'm staying is where all the folks in the media seem to be staying. And so, and I know a lot of them, I'm, I'm running into people that I, you know, I've known from, in different ways in the media for quite some time. And so, you know, we were catching up last night and some of the consensus seems to be that because of the way the blood droplets ended so abruptly there at the driveway, it's almost like there was a vehicle waiting, right? Because you're not going to be able to carry that dead weight if, you know, with a person, you're not able to carry it that far. Okay, maybe a few hundred yards at best. But if there were a vehicle waiting there. And you've got the crime scene contaminated. I can see where that person could have shoved her into some waiting vehicle and drove off to who knows where. There had to be some kind of altercation either at that doorway or maybe inside the house caused her to bleed. But the blood droplets only go just a few feet and then they disappear.

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[Phil Holloway]

I take high value items and make them disappear. So you're a thief.

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[Phil Holloway]

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[Dave Ehrenberg]

I know it.

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[Savannah Guthrie (voice in clips)]

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[Phil Holloway]

Yeah.

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[Dave Ehrenberg]

This took some premeditation because they had the equipment to spray the camera they had. They were all masked up. So this was a planned operation. And so I'm not surprised that there would be a couple car waiting. But even planned operations by professionals can go awry very easily. And that's why it doesn't seem like there'd be any motive just for murder. But there would clearly be a financial motive here. This is a high profile family and but it, you know, it looks like from your video and what I've seen is that this is not where someone accidentally comes upon the house. You have to know where you're going here, right this, there are not a lot of strangers walking by. You have to know where you're going. And then how far are you from the border, Phil? How long would it take?

[Phil Holloway]

60 miles. That's about 60 miles to the southern border from here. And you're right, that's a, that neighborhood is in the foothills. I can just see it just over here. Just the ways it's only just a few miles from where I'm sitting. But the, the, the road that that house is on is. I don't know if it's even big enough to be a two lane road. I think if you're driving down it, you got to be careful if someone's coming opposite direction that each side kind of has to hug the, the shoulder. So it's not a wide road. And yesterday when I was out there, you know, the media has every inch of one side of that road just sort of already covered with cars and equipment and a live shot set up. So there's really not a lot of room coming and going out there now. But you're right, it's off the beaten path and you would have had to know where you were going. And part of what I wanted to show in the purpose of that video, if you want to see it again, you can I put it on, I posted it on Instagram and on my X account yesterday. But you can see there are lots of cacti and there's lots of shrubbery that's you know, maybe chest high. Not tall trees so much, but there are a few taller cactus in there. But if you, if you're trying to sneak up on that house, it would be easy to do, let's just put it that way. And so the other piece of that is if you're, if you have this nest camera and it's facing out, it's not going to see much beyond the edge of that like front porch covered area. I just don't think that was it so dark. That's another thing. I was out there after dark and we are talking about pitch, pitch Black. You can see the stars in the sky so brilliantly compared to Atlanta with all the light pollution that I'm accustomed to. That's one of the darkest scenes that I've ever been to in any of my time in the criminal justice world. It's really, really something. So when you put all this together, it has all the makings of a. A real mystery here. Now there, there have been some reporters who think that they have. You know, Ashley Banfield says her sources have it being the. The. I guess Samantha's brother in law being the prime suspect. You know, at this point, I don't know if this video is consistent or inconsistent with that reporting. I do know this. They went into the home of the son in law and his wife, which is on. And I went there too yesterday.

[Dave Ehrenberg]

That's Annie and Tommaso.

[Phil Holloway]

Yeah, right. And it's only. Yeah, it's only about four or five miles away. And so I visited over there yesterday as well, and I'll tell you about that in a minute. But we also know that in prior days, law enforcement went in there with these cellbrite kits. Right. They're. They're in there for one purpose, which is to extract electronic data from computers, from iPads, from cell phones, whatever they're looking for, where people have been on the Internet and what they've been doing on their devices. And so they were doing that for a reason. It was a consistent scent search. They didn't get a warrant. So either they didn't have probable cause or they just kind of did not want to tip somebody off that they could get a warrant if they needed to.

[Dave Ehrenberg]

Well, they may not have any evidence whatsoever other than the fact that Tommaso, the husband of the sister had, was the last person who saw Ms. Guthrie alive. He dropped her off the night before. But there's no other evidence apparently that he's the perpetrator here. So they went to the home, they asked to do a search and. And they consented. And it was a consensual search. That tells you something. I mean, you and I know if you've done something wrong, the first thing you're going to do is call your lawyer and say, no, you can't come in here. They consented and the cops went in there and they did a full search. But you know, Ashley Bamfield, who's someone we both respect, she's been on with Megyn Kelly and she has maintained that her sources continue to raise the husband's name of the sister. But again, we don't have any Evidence and the fact that did a consensual search tells you a lot. So perhaps there is nothing there. Maybe that's just a false rumor. We'll hopefully see soon enough. One thing I want to get your thoughts. Is that a rumor, Are they still banding that about when you're at the hotel with the other media people?

[Phil Holloway]

Specifically what was.

[Dave Ehrenberg]

Are they still discussing Tommaso's name in conjunction with this?

[Phil Holloway]

Yes, you know, because we know this. In any investigation like this, you start at the center, which is the victim and you work out, right. And you, you start ruling out, if you can, the people that are closest to the victim. And reportedly Tommaso is either the last person or one of the last people to see her alive, except for whoever that monster was at the door. And there are people that are speculating about whether that might be Tommaso seen in those videos. And you know, there's just not enough there to make that conclusion. I'm just saying that that's what the online speculation and the sleuthing is already pointing to that. And we do, we don't know where he is. He hasn't been seen recently as far as anybody knows. I haven't seen any reports.

[Dave Ehrenberg]

His sister is in the videos. His sister's in the videos for the public, right? Not him.

[Phil Holloway]

She's the, and she's the one, as I understand it, who gave consent to search. The. This is. Arizona is a one party consent state for things like that. In other words, if, if husband and wife live in a house and they, the cops get permission from one spouse and, and that, and they can go in and search even if, like, if the other one's not there, even though they would have objected had they been there, that would be a, a lawful search. So you know, there's two schools of thought on that. So some say that, well, the FBI would have always wanted to do it by the book and got a search warrant whether they felt like they could get consent or not. The other school of thought is that if you want to sneak up on somebody and not let them know that you really are looking at them in that way, you can just say, you know, look, it's just standard. We've got to go in and we got to clear the family. You guys are the closest relatives. Do you mind if we just come in and do this, have a look around and you know, because we want to rule you guys out. Sure, come on in. That way you don't tip them off if you really think it's them. And so That's a legitimate police tactic. They do it all the time.

[Dave Ehrenberg]

The cops want to see who lawyers up. I get it, I get it. But, you know, I'm always. I'm reluctant to mention any names in conjunction with this high profile murder without evidence, but Ashley Banfield is someone that we all respect and, you know, we'll see if her sources are correct. I. Are people also talking about the fact that the perpetrators could have gone south of the border because the sheriff's office did not employ their Cessna plane. And you're a pilot, Phil, so you can talk to us. If they had deployed that plane earlier, could they have perhaps found these suspects on the road? Would it have helped? They had pilots who were experienced, but for some reason they weren't available that day or they had budget issues. What's going on?

[Phil Holloway]

You know, this is close to the border. And I think it was on this show with the first place. Like, one of my first thoughts when we first talked about this maybe last week was that maybe this could be like a cartel thing. Because when bitcoin factored into it, I'm thinking, okay, maybe it's close to the border. Maybe they, you know, we know that cartels do engage in kidnapping for ransom. And so the thought had crossed my mind, but then I kind of ruled it out because I'm thinking, all right, well, they're not going to send the ransom note to tmz. They're going to send it, and plus, they're not going to wait two or three days to do it. And then they're going to. If they're going to do it, they're going to show that they have proof of life. So I never really thought that this was serious in terms of it being a true kidnapping for ransom, and I still don't think it was. Now, can we rule out some connection south of the border? No, we can't, because we are very close. And to your point about the plane and. All right, so let me, let me back this up with some context. I've spoken to some people here who are locals, actually more than a few. And the sense is that there may not be the greatest of morale at the sheriff's office even before this took place. And there's a lot of the local law enforcement who privately disagree with maybe how the investigation has been done, but certainly how it has been handled in terms of the media. And we can all agree that the messaging here is terrible. And before I forget, remind me to tell you about what they promised they were going to do Monday night that they didn't do. But to your point about the plane, there's a Cessna aircraft that they use for search and rescue. Okay. They had a pilot that's ready to fly the thing and ready to go trained, and you've got desert just all around here. So a plane would be a really useful tool, especially if somebody's, you know, getting away or removing themselves from the area quickly. Now, the reporting on this is that the pilot had gotten into some kind of a beef with the sheriff. And so as I don't know if you call it punishment or for whatever reason, discipline, was taken out of the cockpit and put in a patrol car and to work, you know, patrol deputy duty. And so hours and hours went by before that airplane got into the air. So the first minutes or hours after a disappearance are critical. And so when you. When you don't have that asset that's being deployed, I think you've really missed an opportunity.

[Dave Ehrenberg]

Yeah, that's frustrating. I'm glad you can speak to that, because every second is so important here. And, you know, now. Now here we are, like, 10 days later. It's very frustrating. Now, you said you want to go back to something about Monday? There's. Yeah, tell us about that.

[Phil Holloway]

Right. So. All right, so Monday night, the. I think it was over Twitter or something, the media was told to expect ongoing and further law enforcement activity at both houses. Okay. Annie's and Nancy's again, they're four or five miles apart. That night, they were said to, you know, to do. And so I was out there, and I was. I didn't see any. I saw one deputy, and he was in his patrol car, but he was just there for site security because that's the road where all the media are camped out in front of Nancy's house. He wasn't conducting any, like, investigative activity. And then over at Annie's house, there was nobody there. There was a private security guard that tried to intimidate me into deleting my video that I didn't want to do and I didn't do.

[Dave Ehrenberg]

Really? A private security guard?

[Phil Holloway]

Yeah. So they, you know, but I didn't see any law enforcement activity. And so I came back to the hotel. I'm catching up with some people having a couple of drinks at the bar, and I'm like, I saw that. Hey, by the way, you guys just coming back from there, did you see any of this law enforcement activity? Nope, nobody's seen anything. So Tuesday morning, I check in on this. Those of you who work the overnight shift out there staking out These houses. Did you see any law enforcement activity? Nope. So why would the sheriff's office be saying and sending out the word publicly to the media to expect investigative activity taking place at both of those homes overnight, and then nothing happens. It's the strangest thing in the world. It's like, why, why would. Why would you put out that message if you. If you're not actually going to do anything? Because the families, when they see this, they think, okay, the cops are doing something. And then they don't. It, you know, I just think it would be disheartening. I mean, it was disappointing for us because we wanted to see some activity and try to figure out what's going on. But the family's got to just start to lose faith in the process.

[Dave Ehrenberg]

You know, you have to believe that law enforcement is doing its best. They care very deeply. But then you see the sheriff at a college basketball game right after you saw Savannah Guthrie's heart wrenching video where she expressed willingness to pay the $6 million ransom. It was at what she said, an hour of desperation. And then it cut to the image of the sheriff at the university of Arizona basketball game. That's bad optics. I realize he has a life, too. But come on, the world is watching you. You have a desperate family there, and you're there enjoying a basketball game. That's bad. And then you have the crime scene. Where is it true that the crime scene wasn't secured? Right. So after like, like 12 hours, people came in and were allowed to use the bathroom in the house?

[Phil Holloway]

Well, that was. That was the video that we showed just a few minutes ago that. So they released the scene. And then. So the journalists go up there and they. The blood's still on the steps or on the walkway. And that's how we get the video because they've. They've gone and entered the crime scene. And so remember when I said this, this was probably, in my opinion, maybe a vehicle that was parked somewhere on that semicircle driveway that was sort of out of the view of the camera. And it, you know, this was a gravel and dirt yard and driveway. And if there had been some strange tire tracks, they certainly. And then they were missed. They weren't investigated. They certainly would have been destroyed by all the media coming on after they initially prematurely released that crime scene.

[Dave Ehrenberg]

You know, it just seems that there are missed opportunities here and major mistakes under amplified because of the national media attention. So, Phil, I appreciate your insight being out there. Hopefully we'll get some news and hopefully it'll be a little bit of good news. I mean, we've, it's just been so terrible, this whole matter. It's frustrating all of us, and I can only imagine what the Guthrie family is going through. So next we're going to bring in Matt Murphy, former homicide prosecutor. Yeah, fellow MK True Crime host. He's going to join us to assess the Guthrie investigation so far. Stay tuned.

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[Dave Ehrenberg]

Welcome back to MK True Crime. Former homicide prosecutor, author of the Book of Murder, and fellow MK True Crime host Matt Murphy joins us now. Matt, I want to start off with a question from a listener about ransoms. Keep in mind, as of this taping, the Monday deadline demanding $6 million has come and gone. And the FBI said that it is not aware of any continued communication between the Guthrie family and suspected kidnappers. In fact, let's play SOT1.

[Savannah Guthrie (voice in clips)]

We received your message and we understand. We beg you now to return our mother to us so that we can celebrate with her. This is the only way we will have peace. This is very valuable to us and we will pay.

[Dave Ehrenberg]

This is so tragic because when she says we will celebrate with her, then you hear the latest video, which takes a different turn with different language. If you can play Sought two.

[Savannah Guthrie (voice in clips)]

Hi there, everybody. I wanted to come on and just share a few thoughts as we enter into another week of this nightmare. We need your help. Law enforcement is working tirelessly around the clock trying to bring her home, trying to find her. She was taken and we don't know.

[Phil Holloway]

Where.

[Savannah Guthrie (voice in clips)]

And we need your help. So I'm coming on just to ask you, not just for your prayers, but no matter where you are, even if you're far from Tucson, if you see anything, if you hear anything, if there's anything at all that seems strange to you, that you report to law enforcement. We are at an hour of desperation, and we need your help.

[Dave Ehrenberg]

It's hard to take.

[Phil Holloway]

Heartbreaking.

[Dave Ehrenberg]

Heartbreaking, it really is. Matt, Catherine writes that she loves the show. What are your thoughts about someone paying a ransom to kidnappers? Isn't this like negotiating with terrorists? A terrible idea for many reasons. A family has no leverage or reason to trust. A kidnapper will let a loved one go if she's not already dead. And high profile ransom payments would encourage copycat crimes and endanger many more people in the future. Your thoughts?

[Matt Murphy]

Yeah. Well, thank you for that question, Katherine. And. And I gotta say, I mean, I've been. I've been as into this case as everybody else, following it very closely. I. I've been looking forward to today in addition to having no responsibilities as a host. But I really wanted it. I really want. I might be interviewing you two guys. I can't think of two people I'd rather pick the brains of. More on this case than our two hosts, Phil and Dave. So, look, this is really tough. Every case like this is unique. Okay, so there almost is no quote, unquote, Normal in something like this. But that's a real concern. But I think a bigger concern, guys, and I may be alone here. I've always had a problem with this whole ransom thing. I decided I was going to count how many scam phone calls I got just today before this interview. I've already had four. Now, some of those might be spam more than scam, but every time I answer one of those, it's somebody who's trying to get money out of me. And we live in that world now, and we see evolving crime. And they went public. They asked for the public's assistance before anything came in. It's my understanding, and we are based. All this is unlimited information. The three of us have been in situations before where we've been the guy in front of those cameras, especially Dave, and it's a tough place to be. But you have the benefit of the files, which we don't have here. I would have a problem with them giving out 6 million bucks because I personally think this is just me. And this is one of those times where I want to be wrong. But I don't think anybody's got her anymore, guys. I don't.

[Phil Holloway]

I. Oh, look, I think that 10. 10 days out now. Yeah, I. I think that we can safely say that this is no longer. Well, we. It's. It never was a kidnapping. I don't think. I. I think the whole thing about the kidnapping is a hoax. I could very well be wrong. But who's going to send. If you kidnap her, who are you going to. Why are you going to send your kidnapping ransom demand to tmz? And why are you going to wa three days to do it? And why are you never going to include proof of life? Because those are the things that you have to have. Look, we know that just 60 miles south of where I'm sitting here in Tucson, south of the border, we know that kidnappings for ransom are real. It happens a lot. But they actually do exchange money, and a lot of the folks get returned. So it's almost like a business south of the border. And so they always include proof of life, and it's always done really quickly after the abduction. So this had none of the hallmarks, in my opinion, of a legitimate, real, honest to goodness kidnapping for ransom.

[Matt Murphy]

I'll tell you another huge problem, Phil, and I agree with everything you just said. Another huge problem here, guys. And Elizabeth Vargas corrected me on air from the time that we. That this stunning video that was just released and these. These still images that they. That they just released about an hour ago, I think there were 31 or 41, depending on which press conference, I think with this sheriff, minutes between that video and the time that her pacemaker disconnected from the watch. Now, here's something that hasn't a lot of people don't know, but both of you guys have worked many murders and you know that pacemakers continue to beat even after the person is dead. So one of the biggest mistakes people have made here. This is awful to say. And look, all my sympathies are with the family, as always, but it doesn't mean she's alive when she left the house. And that blood is really disturbing on the steps. And what, what's this guy doing for half an hour inside the house? You don't need to do that for a kidnapping.

[Phil Holloway]

And no, we don't know. I've look, sitting around the lobby here in this hotel with the other journalists that are here in Tucson, a lot of. A lot of them I can say believe that she was not living and was maybe draped over somebody's shoulder and gravity is what caused those blood droplets to fall.

[Matt Murphy]

Guys, I had a case just like that at Irvine where it was a woman killed her boyfriend. This is my Judy Vellak case. And they had almost the same tiles. I just have it seared in my mind. And the blood drops just looked exactly the same. And he was, he was dead. So that's, you know, only living people will actually bleed. But dead bodies sure ooze a lot. And that's an awful thing to say. Dave, what are your thoughts on this? I mean, this, this is a look my. My head, guys, and I want to preface it. I spent four years in sexual assault before I got into homicide. And half your cases in homicide are sex cases anyway. But my, My twisted brain immediately went to sex offender. What are your thoughts, Dave? And I'm not predicting that, guys. It's just. That's where my head went right when I first heard about it. And I didn't see anything on that video that we just watched that disabuses me of that as a potential theory. Dave, what do you think?

[Dave Ehrenberg]

First thing I thought was, you first look at people closest to her. It could be a worker in the home who has a relative and then thinks this could be a payday. Knows the terrain, knows the house, knows when she's going to be home and knows enough that their cameras are there and knows to spray the cameras and then take. Takes off with her. But then something goes awry and there's no. There's no alive person anymore. The person is now deceased. And now you have to send a ransom note without any proof of life. So I think that is what I would say would happen. I think it's very telling that there's no picture, no proof of life. If they had it, they would offer it. And so I think this is an attempt at kidnapping gone bad. But as far as who did it, you know, I don't want to mention any names because I don't have the evidence, but I would be surprised. It was purely stranger related, where there was no connection, even twice removed to the family. I think that there's someone who knows something, who's involved, but it is tragic. I think Savannah Guthrie, in her last statement, reflects what we all tend to believe now, which is it would be a miracle for her mother to still be alive.

[Phil Holloway]

Well, to. To your point, right now, as we are recording the show, the breaking news is that now that with these videos and images have been released, law enforcement is going door to door, just a few miles from where I'm sitting here right now at Annie Guthrie's home, talking to the residents and the neighbors over in that area, which is about four miles from Nancy's house. What that means, I don't know. But they're now taking the images and videos, and they're asking people, hey, do you recognize who this might be? Do you recognize this gate, the way this person stands, things of that nature? What that means, I don't know. But certainly they're not out there going door to door for no reason.

[Matt Murphy]

Yeah. There's an adage that we learned here in Southern California, guys, and I want to share a story with you. I actually put this in my book on that same case, the Judy Block case. You know, the Mojave Desert in Arizona and California is filled with. Because it's a desert, right? There isn't a lot of natural erosion filled with old mines, old holes in the ground. They're countless. And we know that this woman got her poor dead boyfriend, his name was Pete Terrio, out to a place called Blythe. That's right on the border of Arizona. So it's the same desert. And my. My lead investigator, wonderful cop named Larry Montgomery, who's the. Just one of the very, very best. And he's brilliant. Born to solve murder cases. He. He really liked cadaver dogs and using cadaver dogs, especially in a missing. Missing body case like that. And he talked to one of the local sheriffs, and Larry was about 55 or so. He's like our age when he, when he had this conversation, and he said, you know, we're thinking about bringing a cadaver dog out. And the local sheriff who works out there in the desert all the time said, called him son, which I thought was kind of funny. He said, son, you can bring your dog, and I can almost guarantee you'll find a body, but it's not going to be the one you're looking for.

[Phil Holloway]

Yeah.

[Matt Murphy]

And Larry said. Larry said, do you have that many dead bodies out there in the desert? And he called him son again. He said, son, on judgment Day, when the dead rise at the. Going to be standing room only out here. And it's kind of like a story as a background in a horrible case. But it illustrates the point, guys, that when we would have bodies taken out and dumped in the Pacific Ocean, we would never find them. And if they got them out to the desert, rarely would we ever recover those bodies. I don't. I. If I had to guess here, I don't think unless somebody talks, unless they find a suspect that gives it up, we may never. We may never find her body. I prosecuted five no body cases during my time.

[Phil Holloway]

You know, look, look, here's. Here's. What if the. Instead of a $50,000 reward, what if that reward were suddenly up to, say, a million dollars? Somebody somewhere knows something and there's a number that. Whatever that number is, I don't know, but there is a number that will motivate somebody with knowledge to make that call. I think that that could be something that we see coming soon, is maybe adding to the reward.

[Matt Murphy]

Well, I think that the, the release of that photo was just a tremendous break in the investigation, and it's. It's very interesting. I don't know. You know, they call it metadata on the device. I. I don't know. It's going to be very interesting to see what, what technique they used to recover that, because apparently she didn't have a. A prescription. There. There he is. But that. That looks like a unique article of clothing, right? That zipper, the balaclava that he's wearing, even the gloves, the shoes. You can see the backpack is unique. He turns around multiple times in that video. The FBI, in my experience, and I know you work with them a bunch too, Dave. Right. Like the. They're the best in the world at identifying that. There's going to be. There's going to be probably a team of agents on the backpack, team of agents on the gloves. That's a re. This is a huge development in this thing. Well, almost looks like he's got a mustache too.

[Dave Ehrenberg]

Matt, why did it take 10 days to get this picture?

[Matt Murphy]

That I don't know, guys. And that's. And look, maybe this was some heroic forensic acrobatics done by, by some unsung hero in the, in the RCFL lab of the FBI.

[Phil Holloway]

Well, if you look at him closely, it has the word they should.

[Matt Murphy]

If it was obtainable, it should have been released within 24 hours, guys, and, and look again. We know how hard it is to stand up in front of those cameras. That sheriff at the frigging basketball game has bothered me ever since. That's a terrible look. Terrible look that. Like you got people that are detectives in that department. And I'm sorry, I don't. I don't want to be too harsh here, but you got detectives who are literally sleeping three hours a night when they're, when they're looking for a missing. You see it every time there's a missing child or a missing vulnerable person, they burn the midnight oil. You see that in every case, every case the three of us have ever worked like that. And you got. Basketball's for entertainment. And I, I didn't like that at all.

[Phil Holloway]

So.

[Matt Murphy]

So I hope it was. It was forensic heroics, Dave.

[Phil Holloway]

I hope.

[Matt Murphy]

But if that was something that was available, you know, within the first 24 hours. Look, you can get DNA in 24 hours. You can get. I've had cases on my Samantha running case. I was a little girl who disappeared for a week. Tragic ending on that. But. But the sheriff was able to get a 24 hour turnaround time from our crime lab in Orange county, which is an excellent crime lab. But yeah, one of the big questions I got, Dave. But also, look, when we see those videos of them searching the septic tank, part of that is, you know, due diligence, right? You have to do that before the body's recovered. But part of it also indicates to me that the grizzled detectives who know what they're doing, and I think there's got to be a couple locals on that case, they also don't buy this ransom friggin nonsense. Yeah, and to your point, Phil and Dave, look, there's no proof of life because they don't have any. That's why. And so maybe coming full, full circle to the question, yeah, I'm glad they didn't pay this money because I don't think it's real. And I think that that's. I think those are parasitic people. They already arrested one in Hawthorne and I'm gonna. I'M gonna get a little as a guest. I think I can get a little emotional here, guys. I think that anybody that try to cash in on something like this by trying to get money out, I think they should be prosecuted as accessories after the fact to murder personally. Because the person who benefits most on that is the killer himself.

[Phil Holloway]

Right.

[Matt Murphy]

And. And I think that that's. That's reasonably foreseeable to anybody who does that. Those people should be tarred and feathered in the town square and then prosecuted for accessory after the fact of murder. Which in Florida. Dave. I know is it. It's a bigger hit than it is here in California. You can actually do serious time there as opposed to here for accessory after that. That's something that should be severely dealt with for anybody that tries to take advantage of something like this. In my personal opinion.

[Dave Ehrenberg]

Here, here. Totally agree. I think Phil agrees. Our three judge panel here with sentence them to the maximum punishment. Really disgusting individual who would exploit a family during their lowest time of their lives or hour of desperation to try to make some money. Gross. I want to ask you something that we discussed with Phil before he got here. By the way, we also chastised the sheriff for the basketball game as well. Want to ask you about the plane now, Phil is a pilot and the ability of that Cessna to get in the air right away could have made a difference. Right. That was another perhaps miscue by the sheriff's department.

[Matt Murphy]

You know, I. And look again it's. I, I want to be fair, okay. And I don't have the file in front of me. But you know, as a vertical homicide prosecutor, you get in on the ground floor on these things. And what I would have liked to have seen, and this is perhaps forensic fantasy in my own head, I would have liked to see her. Her phone on a helicopter flying around looking for some link to that pacemaker.

[Dave Ehrenberg]

And.

[Matt Murphy]

They could probably still do that. Pacemaker is ticking away, guys. I had one of those where we thought an elderly victim was still alive. Wasn't exactly like this case, but it turns out is it like an airtight to the health of the human? They just keep going, the batteries keep ticking. In funeral homes it's an issue. You cannot cremate somebody with a pacemaker because the batteries might blow up. Because the batteries are so powerful. I would like to see that. Another thing you can do, and this is. I had a. My last missing body case was my Chris Smith case where he was murdered by his business partner and dumped somewhere north of the Mexican border. And we had Cell phone tower pings, but it's flat there, so it could be 100 square miles. And what I've always wanted to do was use lidar to technology that's like ground penetrating on a drone because you can. They use that for archaeological digs. It's fascinating. They've been discovering all these unknown communities in the, the jungles of Peru because they can actually penetrate the, the, the, the. The jungle foliage, and they can see like, disturbances in the ground that used to be walls or, or structures. It's fascinating. And I think that could also be used. But, you know, then, then again, I want to be fair. There's mistakes made in every homicide investigation, every single one. There's something that, that there's always hindsight. There's always something that the police could have done better. And I, and I really do want to be fair. They, you know, Tucson, though, they have. The sheriff's department there, does between five and 10 homicides a year, which is not a lot. And a lot of the homicides that they get in Tucson, it's my understanding, are cartel related, as are a lot of the kidnappings for ransom. But that's not nice. Elderly women who live in nice communities.

[Dave Ehrenberg]

Right.

[Matt Murphy]

That's a different, different element.

[Phil Holloway]

You know, I got a question for you, both of you, actually, but since we've got Matt here too, I'd love to hear your thoughts on this. Before we started recording the show today, I was messaging with a friend of mine who is a veteran homicide detective. He finds this case, as we all do, perplexing and fascinating. And his question was, you know, if, if this person drove off in some vehicle, which is my theory, because if he didn't, then the body's probably within 2 or 300 yards of the house. And I don't think it's there. I think it was taken away in some vehicle. So his question for me was, well, then why did, you know, flock cameras, you know, pick it up, of course, which is the automated tag reader, camera things. And I go back to an earlier interview the sheriff gave, and I forget who he was giving it to because he wouldn't give me one. I asked, and he said, no, we're not, we're not doing any more interviews. And he said something like, they covered the plates. Like, in other words, that would explain why, you know, nobody, no camera reader, tag reader could see a plate because his words were, they covered the plates. So I'm just wondering, you know, all along we've been getting, you know, this mixed messaging, right? From the sheriff's office on what is or is not the facts of the case. The timeline changes and everything like that. But I guess my question for you guys is, does that make sense to you? Is it plausible that a vehicle could have left with her in the vehicle with covered plates and it not been picked up by any Flock camera?

[Matt Murphy]

So the, the, the plate readers that I have dealt with, the ones that we. We had in Newport Beach, I've hit a couple of home runs on some really interesting violent crime in Newport, but they're mobile. And so it's, it's kind of haphazard and you got to get lucky. It's got to be, you know, a repeated visitor. And, you know, a lot of times those plate readers will only pick up cars with expired tags or if they're marked as stolen and they're. Yeah, again, some dark room right now, guys, we both know there's. Or all three of us know there's a. There's some team of FBI agents going through every single video of every Circle K store looking for some pattern of a car egressing from that neighborhood. So, yeah, could be they covered it. But I think the plate readers alert to those, Phil, don't they? If, like, if they, if they try to cover the plate, I think there's a. I think the software will red flag those. And then you're going to get a photo of the car probably.

[Phil Holloway]

Well, whether you, you know, for, for those of you who are listening to us on podcast or perhaps Even on Sirius XM, go to our YouTube channel and go to the comments. And if you know the answer to that question, put it in the comments. And by the way, while you're there, subscribe to MK True Crime. We get a lot of good stuff in the comments. We get a lot of subject matter experts and we get people who are. Maybe they're not experts, they're just smart people and they ask questions. And believe it or not, we incorporate a lot of that into what. What comes out into another show. So somebody is going to tell us the answer to that.

[Matt Murphy]

You know, can I go back to something that Dave said, which he was spot on. What you do is, you know, investigating these is almost the exact opposite of the way you prosecute them in a. Who done it? Dave is exactly right. You start with the people closest to somebody like this, and you methodically and systematically eliminate them. You look at their phones, you look at potential motive, and you expand that ring into things like gardeners, the pool guy, the fish tank cleaner. You get every neighbor in the area, you Methodically broaden that circle out. The way you prosecute these cases and is especially on a whodunit, which is what this is right now. You start out with the population of the earth and you go in, you start out with everybody that couldn't have been there, and we narrow it down to people that are in Tucson that night. Then you go into people who might know the schedule, people that might see some perceived benefit, and you present the case in the exact opposite of the way that it gets investigated. And that's when you deal with the FBI. Again, in my experience, the agents especially are the best in the whole world at that. So this is going to be. I just want, I didn't want to leave Dave's comment on that hanging. Dave's exactly right. It's a voice of experience. You, you start with everybody that you know is in her world and you systematically through DNA, through the, the forensic electronic analysis of computers, cell phones. I mean, how many cases have we seen, guys, where, where a disorganized killer will have his cell phone in his car. Like Co Burger. Yeah, you know, I mean, I can't, I, I can't tell you how many cases we solved where the dummy killer had his phone with him and the phone was on and then, you know, and, and we're able to, we're able to make it that way.

[Phil Holloway]

Well, it's my understanding they did the, you know, the whole geo fencing, which is, you know, the technology where you put a, an invisible geofence around a crime scene of whatever distance you want. And then, you know, the Google or the tech companies will provide info as to what devices may have come and gone. This person, this monster, could have done this without possessing a phone. You know, we just, we just don't know. Speaking of DNA on, I guess it was Tuesday. So, yeah, the, it was reported Tuesday that the law enforcement was taking swabs, I guess the cheek swabs for DNA of people who worked at the home, whether it was the landscaper, the pool person, pool cleaner, whatever, and looking for, I guess, touch DNA. I can tell you this, whoever that was in these pictures, unless he, and I'm sure it was a he, unless he took off those gloves, he didn't leave any touch DNA behind. However, as you mentioned, apparently he was inside that house for 30 or 40 minutes and it's hard to do much with, with that kind of gloves on, so who knows? But, you know, apparently they do think they have some DNA they recovered from inside the house and they're using it to start eliminating People. Now if you have the, the lawn care person and their think and their touch DNA is in the kitchen, that's one thing. But if it's in the bedroom or on the bed sheets, you know, that's another problem you got to figure out. Just because your DNA is there, there could very well be an innocent explanation for it. The whole thing about touch DNA is the context, right? If it's, if it's somebody's DNA that is not. Is in a place that it shouldn't really be, then that's what could make them a suspect.

[Dave Ehrenberg]

Well, criminals are stupid. I mean really, it's not for stupid criminals. Prosecutors wouldn't be successful as we are. Exactly. We all be out of work because you know, they look tough and scary with behind the mask and the gun up there, but really nearly all of them are dopes and they do stupid things. Like Coburger, who thought he was slick because he turned off his phone just in the couple hours where he drove to the house and then drove back, but his phone was on the entire time right before and after. So it's like, why'd you turn your phone on right during the time of the murder, idiot. So this is what you're counting on, mistakes. At the same time, you know, I don't think it's unfair to call out law enforcement for their mistakes. Here you have a smaller police department who's not used to this. You have a sheriff who has bad optics, who's at the basketball game, who has a feud with one of the airline pilots that he uses to fly the Cessna. And so it's fair to review this because it is unusual for this high profile matter that we don't have any more leads than we do already. And finally we've got this incredible picture today, but it took us how long to get it.

[Matt Murphy]

Yeah, I totally agree, Dave. And you know, it is, it does raise another very important point. Coburger in particular, as the FBI is doing this. A lot of this is going to be systematic. It's about eliminating people through the process of elimination. Doesn't mean that any of them had anything to do with it. And in Coburger we had, somebody was accused, not officially, but of by online sleuths. Some poor professor who they accused of doing it, who's totally innocent. And that went on for a long time. Lives can be ruined when we, when we look at the wrong, at the wrong person. But boy, Dave, I am with you, man. A feud over the friggin Cessna is disturbing to me.

[Phil Holloway]

I, you know, put the Pilot on road patrol. He sent him out to the right traffic tickets or whatever.

[Matt Murphy]

Yeah, that kind of. That kind of politics at the expense of public safety is something that I've got. It has made me sick my entire career. I've seen that kind of BS my entire career. I don't like it at all. I know that this sheriff, and again, he's been in law enforcement his whole life, but, man, one of the first things they taught us when we went to crime scenes. Guys, and you both know this probably better than I do, when you show up and the media is there and they're watching, you don't high five your buddy out in front of the house because you're happy to see him. You're there to take care of business in a very somber, professional way. And I'm kind of with you, Dave. I don't want to dump on this guy, but get a clue, buddy. You know, like that. That's.

[Phil Holloway]

Hey, hey, look, you can. Wherever it's warranted. Where. And I think he's earned it. He's earned his fair share of criticism, in my view.

[Matt Murphy]

Yeah, yeah, Matt, I. I bet the politics, not departments, suck. That's what jumped out of me. I don't know, just from having worked in an office like that for 26 years. You guys know exactly what I'm talking about. But I. But, you know, hopefully he's behind the scenes. He's been a lot more on the spot than what we've seen. So.

[Dave Ehrenberg]

Matt, I gotta admit, I didn't know that he had high fived his buddy before the press conference.

[Matt Murphy]

No, no, not him. Not him. I'm saying that. And I thank you, Dave. That's what they teach us not to do. Like, when people are watching you, especially if you're in a leadership position, you've got to be cognizant in order to keep the public faith and the integrity of law enforcement and the integrity of the. The process. I think he's failed voters on this, frankly, so I use that as a metaphor. He didn't high five anybody, you know, but he did go to a freaking basketball game for entertainment when this poor lady was missing in. The Guthrie family is going through the worst, worst psychological pain anybody can go through. Bad look, bad move and shame on you.

[Phil Holloway]

Yeah.

[Dave Ehrenberg]

Thank you, Matt. You know, this was really insightful, and we are looking forward to your show in the well with Mark Garrigo soon.

[Matt Murphy]

Thanks, guys. I'm so glad I got to talk to you, too. I've been looking forward to this for a couple of days. Because, I mean, two of the best minds that I've ever met in my entire career.

[Phil Holloway]

No thanks so much. High praise from you, my friend.

[Dave Ehrenberg]

Oh, man.

[Phil Holloway]

We'll see you soon.

[Dave Ehrenberg]

A lot coming from you, brother. Thank you. You're awesome. Thanks, man. All right, quick updates. Next on Corey Richards, the Anna Kempner case, and our closing argument. Stay tuned.

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[Phil Holloway]

Welcome back to MK True Crime. I'm Phil Holloway along with my co host Dave Ehrenberg. Dave is going to give us a quick update on some of the cases that we've been following here on MK True Crime and that we will continue to follow on MK True Crime. We've got the Corey Richards trial is underway and we also have. What else do we have?

[Dave Ehrenberg]

Well, first let's, let's go over Corey Richards. We'll talk about Diana Kepner next. But Corey Richards is this fascinating case in Utah where a seemingly wonderful wife, wife who cared for her husband had tried to kill him over and over again. The second time it succeeded, she's being accused of both attempts and insurance fraud and other things. She had a financial motive also. What really stuck in the craw of so many people was Cory Richards after she allegedly murdered her husband, went on to write a book about grief and then went on tv talk about how awful it was to be a widow and, you know, just taking care of the kids in, in such an environment. Well, what if you're the one who did it?

[Phil Holloway]

Well, that, that jury, I guess they've already started jury selection as of the 10th, which is the day we're taping this as I understand it. And the judge has said that maybe like late March is when that case is going to conclude. But Richards also has other indictments, doesn't she?

[Dave Ehrenberg]

Yeah, well, it's for both attempted murders and then there's the insurance fraud. That's the financial motive. So she's not going anywhere. I mean, there's so much evidence against her. I mean, she's allegedly bought the fentanyl that killed her husband. And of course her excuses he was a drug addict even though there's no evidence that he ever was a drug addict. And you're the one who bought the stuff, so allegedly. So I'm looking forward to this. I think this is gonna be a must watch case. The jury selection is happening. Of course the defense lawyers are saying move it out of the community towards a different community. But you don't need jurors who are blank slates, empty vessels. They can hear about the, the case. They just have to say that they can set aside their biases and what they know and just follow the evidence and the law. You can get a jury in any high profile case, in my mind.

[Phil Holloway]

Oh yeah, I think you, I think that's right. Particularly that one. A lot of people are saying that they haven't even been following the case when they're asked in their questionnaire. So what's going on there in the, in, in Florida with Kepner?

[Dave Ehrenberg]

There's always a Florida connection to true crime, right?

[Phil Holloway]

Phil, Listen, federal court, though.

[Dave Ehrenberg]

We don't know too much about this one because the alleged killer or the one that people are pointing to here is a juvenile. And so you have to decide to try him as an adult in federal court. So there's a lot of secrecy about that. Once he has moved to adult court, we'll have the evidence in front of us. The information right now, it's under wraps. So you're Talking about a 16 year old stepbrother of Anna Kepner who has arrived in federal court, arrived on Friday, and there has not been much evidence or is produced except for the media. Like we haven't seen or heard from prosecutors on this one or from the judge because the guy is a juvenile. So it's been nearly three months since Anna Kepner, who is 18 years old, was allegedly killed by asphyxiation aboard the Carnival Horizon. And well placed sources, though, are saying that this young man faces at least two charges over her death. All the signs point to him. She died of asphyxiation. They were staying in the same hotel room, and he said the night of the murder, he just didn't remember what happened. That's not what you say. If you're completely innocent when you, when you don't want to confess, you, you, you keep your mouth shut. You don't say, I don't remember what I was doing or where I was that night. Not good.

[Phil Holloway]

All right, we'll be keeping a close eye on that. I am told by a reliable source, Dave, that you are ready to give your closing argument.

[Dave Ehrenberg]

Who told you that?

[Phil Holloway]

Okay. I cannot reveal my source.

[Dave Ehrenberg]

All right, let's do it. Thank you, Phil. And I know that you know that there's big news in the true crime world, right? The Law and Crime Network is buying Court tv. And so I will go to New York almost every month to do some media. And I used to go up and like, do networks that you would never step foot in, Phil. Like, you know, then msnbc, cnn, and I would also go to this little startup who does true crime on a streaming basis named Lawn Crime Network. And I got friendly with the people that are great people, and now that underdog streaming network has bought Court tv. They, they used to do live trial analysis, and then they leaned into where the eyeballs were, True crime podcasts. And so you see the media world accelerating its way Away from linear TV and towards streaming, where you have the little engine who could, who now is the behemoth in the streaming true crime field. It didn't hurt that a company called Jelly Smack bought them for like nine figures, talking about $125 million. So that's Dan Abrams company. Congrats. Now the move by Long Crime Network to acquire Core tv, which really is focused on the linear tv, on the televised stuff, when you turn on the old school TV and watch it as opposed to online, it's a definite marker of where we're headed. Seeing a digital first streaming service, once the underdog, now gulping up a legacy television giant, is a stunning testament to how fast our industry is moving. And it's the same shift that has fueled the growth of MK True Crime. The audience isn't just waiting for the evening news anymore. They're seeking out direct, specialized and accessible coverage. And look, we got you out there in Arizona, Phil. I mean that is shows you the growth of these smaller outlets that are just becoming larger and more profitable and more popular every day. So to my friends and colleagues at Court tv, I know how unsettling these transitions can be. You've done vital work keeping the legal system transparent and I and truly wishing you all the best you navigate this period of change. We are standing in a brave new world and there's no turning back.

[Phil Holloway]

You know, just to real quick to follow up on that, you know, you make a very good point. You know, and I was having this discussion last night here at the hotel in Tucson where a lot of the media is staying. And I've got a lot of friends with other companies and you know, just the point was made last night in this discussion that look, in the old days we had to decide, are you going to watch Channel 9 or Channel 12? It was like just, it was the only two choices that you had, right? And now you can watch all the channels because you can stream it or you can DVR it. And so we've like Vinnie Politin, the lead anchor at Court tv has been on our show here at MK True Crown. It's like we, there's plenty of space in this space in the true crime space for lots of these different shows. And you know, ours is different. We do it a different way than maybe others do it in true Crime. But it's almost like the days of being true competitors are kind of gone because there are people in our audience that are also in their audience and then the next person's right. So there's plenty of space here for. For all of it. And I think it's a great. We're growing. I want people to continue to subscribe, podcast, YouTube, but we're growing, and I'm very excited about where this is headed.

[Dave Ehrenberg]

Well, we have Joel Waldman on ours, and so there's a big enough pie for all of us. But we are different. We're different than Joel's show. We're different than what's on Law and Crime or Court tv. This kind of format is unique, and I think it's a reason why we're growing. So thank you, Phil, and let's hear your rant.

[Phil Holloway]

Well, and stay tuned, because we have other big, exciting news that will be headed your way very soon regarding MK True Crime. But I'll leave it at there for right now. And I want to talk about crime scenes and the importance of keeping a crime scene intact. You know, that's probably the single most important step in any criminal investigation, at least at the beginning, is maintaining the integrity of that crime scene. The moment a crime occurs, the scene becomes a silent witness because there's things there that can talk to investigators and tell investigators what happened. Every footprint, every drop of blood, every fiber, every fingerprint or a bit of touch DNA. These are the silent witnesses that hold the truth of the matter, whatever it may be. But that's fragile. And as we've seen in this Guthrie case, one careless step, one unauthorized person, one curious bystander can contaminate, alter, or destroy evidence, and in the process, you know, destroys the integrity of that scene, and it turns that silent witness into a mute witness. You know, maintaining the integrity of these scenes ensures that what we collect can be used in court. If there are mistakes made, if chain of custody and things like that are not preserved, this evidence may not be available in court. So it is vitally important that law enforcement take the steps the right way. Don't release crime scenes too early, for example, because contamination comes in. And by the way, this is important for more than just the Guthrie case. This is just good police work. It prevents wrongful accusations, false and even false convictions. Right. We want to keep the entire justice system, you know, we want to have as much integrity maintained as possible in that system. So, you know, things like a secure perimeter, you got a log, everybody that comes and goes from the crime scene. These are the sort of the foundations of a good investigation. And a good investigation is ultimately the foundation of justice. So we got to do it right, folks. All right. We got to leave it there. I want to thank all of you for joining us here at MK True Crime. And as I mentioned, if you haven't done so, Please subscribe on YouTube anywhere you get your podcast and listen to us on SiriusXM, the Megyn Kelly Channel. On behalf of me and Dave, thanks so much and have a great rest of your week. Support is available 24? 7 with VRBoCare. We're here day or night, ready whenever you need help because a great trip starts with the right support. Imagine relying on a dozen different software programs to run your business, none of which are connected, and each one more expensive and more complicated than the last. It can be pretty stressful. Now imagine Odoo. Odoo has all the programs you'll ever need and are all connected on one platform. Doesn't Odoo sound amazing? Let Odoo harmonize your business with simple, efficient software that can handle everything for a fraction of the price. Sign up today at odoo. Com.

[Dave Ehrenberg]

That's Odoo.

[Phil Holloway]

Com.