New Kohberger Evidence Questions, Horrifying Athena Strand Details, and Zodiac Killer REVEALED? With Alex Baber

Summary

MK True Crime Podcast Summary

Episode Title: New Kohberger Evidence Questions, Horrifying Athena Strand Details, and Zodiac Killer REVEALED? With Alex Baber
Date: April 30, 2026
Host(s): Ashley Merchant & Phil Holloway
Guest: Alex Baber (Founder, Cold Case Consultants of America)

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Overview

This episode dives into three headline true crime topics:

1. Disputed new claims regarding DNA evidence in the Bryan Kohberger case (Idaho murders)
2. Emotional updates and legal analysis from the Tanner Horner sentencing trial (Athena Strand case in Texas)
3. A jaw-dropping interview with cold case investigator Alex Baber, who claims to have solved the Zodiac Killer ciphers and connected the Zodiac and Black Dahlia murders to one culprit

The episode balances legal expertise, empathetic case discussion, and intrigue around breakthrough cold case work.

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Key Topics & Discussions

1. Bryan Kohberger DNA Evidence Controversy (00:55–12:11)

Explanation of the Issue

• Context: Kohberger's defense hired Brent Turvey, an expert who made public claims that police mishandled critical DNA evidence (the knife sheath).
• Claim: Alleged failure in the "chain of custody" documentation could, hypothetically, allow for evidence tampering.
• Procedure: Normally, every handler signs off on an evidence bag, but Turvey claims one crucial signature was missing.

Legal Analysis & Response

• Phil Holloway (03:19):

  “If they say this is the knife and the sheath that was found, then it's supposed to be the actual one...the defense expert...said the evidence bag lacked the required signatures...the defense team is distancing themselves from this guy and his claims. And I think for good reason, Ashley.”
  (03:19–04:39)

• Ashley Merchant (04:39):
  • Emphasizes the NDA breach by Turvey.
  • Notes that, pragmatically, even with the signature issue, evidence would likely have been admitted; the judge would instruct the jury to weigh its credibility.
• Phil (06:09):

  “I think there might be a reasonable case...maybe he didn't do it alone. But I think it's a stretch to say he didn't do it. And I also think it's a stretch to say the chain of custody...was broken.”
  (06:09-08:29)

  • Points out chain of custody is now handled with barcodes, not signatures.
  • Othram Labs scientist confirmed the evidence seal was not broken.

Social Media & Conspiracies

• Ashley (05:06):

  “All of a sudden I got all these Facebook and Instagram groups about Kohberger conspiracies. There's a lot of people out there that actually think he didn't do it...I had no idea. Literally no idea.”

Family Reaction

• Kohberger’s mother’s initial disbelief revealed through FBI transcript:

  “He's my angel. My son would not do this. I'll say, stake my life on it...he's a quiet homebody. He has a 3.8 GPA.”
  (Approx. 09:00–10:34)

Notable Quote

• Phil reads the defense team’s official statement on Turvey:

  “The defense team is appalled by Mr. Turvey's behavior and his release of documents and information that he knows are confidential. His reliability should be seen through the lens of his conduct.” (10:34)

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2. Tanner Horner Sentencing Trial (Athena Strand Case) (12:54–26:36)

Case Recap

• Tanner Horner, former FedEx driver, pled guilty to the murder of 7-year-old Athena Strand.
• Trial phase: Jury is to decide between life in prison or the death penalty.

Heart-wrenching Testimony from Athena’s Mother

• Testimony begins (16:08):

  “I was in my house...my older sister came banging on the door...She said, Athena's missing. Immediately I said, no, she's not...it felt like I was dying. I couldn't breathe. But I knew I had to keep going...I went in around eight in the morning with just my dad. Her ears were messed up and she had incision lines and her chin was scraped up...I searched her body, looking for any reason that that wasn't my baby. And then we did her makeup so Jacob wouldn't have to see the discoloration and how bad it was.” (16:08–18:36)

• Both hosts express profound empathy and distress at the details and the emotional weight of the mother’s testimony.

Mitigation Phase and Defense Strategy

• Mitigation efforts: Defense brings up childhood trauma, family dysfunction, and a fabricated alter ego (“Zero”) as explanations for Horner’s behavior.
• Mother’s testimony (Melissa Horner):

  “He panicked and strangled her...Yes, I have been watching [the trial]...I don't know what to say.”
  (21:16–22:24)

• Phil observes:

  “I think she's actually helping the prosecution because she gives the jury sort of the impression that even his mother is just mortified at the horrific nature of his crimes.” (22:24)

Psychology & Autism Aspect

• Dr. Eileen Ryan (Defense Psychiatrist): Testified that Horner’s “Zero” persona was a fabrication, not true dissociative disorder.
• School Psychologist Testimony (25:05):

  “Tanner lacks empathy and has little ability to form friendships...Connection between the way we behave or our mannerisms affect others.”
  (25:05–26:18)

• Phil notes these lines of defense may inadvertently support the prosecution’s case for the death penalty.

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3. Zodiac Killer & Black Dahlia – Bombshell Interview with Alex Baber (29:34–55:54)

Zodiac Case Background (29:34–31:34)

• Phil’s setup: Zodiac Killer terrorized Northern California in the 1960s–70s, taunting authorities with cryptic letters. The infamous Z13 cipher had never been decoded.

Baber's Cipher-Breaking Methodology (31:34–35:54)

• Process (Alex Baber):
  • Used AI and programming to cross-reference millions of name combinations against the cipher.
  • Whittled down candidate list to a single individual: Marvin Margolis.
• Intellectual profile:

  “Oh, he's highly intelligent. Once we identified him, we found out they had a plus 160 IQ level intellectual quality.” (35:14)

Exposing the Suspect: Marvin Margolis (36:07–41:27)

• Background:
  Born 1925 in Chicago, fought in WWII as a Navy corpsman, exhibited severe PTSD.
• Investigation:
  • Baber traced Margolis through genealogy and approached his son.
  • Son confirmed the handwriting from Zodiac letters was his father’s.

Unprecedented Family Reaction (39:00)

• The son’s visceral recognition of his father’s handwriting and emotional response strengthened Baber’s case.

Linking Zodiac & Black Dahlia Murders (40:39–49:34)

• Major revelation:
  Margolis was also the last known boyfriend of Elizabeth Short (the Black Dahlia).
• Physical evidence:
  The son possessed a sketch believed to be Elizabeth Short, with disturbing anatomical accuracy and details matching her injuries—including, revealed under digital enhancement, the word "Zodiac" hidden in the art.

  “At that moment, I see something here. I think it says Zodiac...for the first time in 79 years in Elizabeth Schwartz case, we had a piece of physical evidence...” (47:57–48:35)

Other Supporting Connections

• Established timeline and physical proximity between Margolis and the victims.
• Noted medical knowledge relevant to the crimes.
• Further evidence: Sketches, location overlap, and witness testimonies.

Law Enforcement Next Steps (53:22–54:33)

• New Investigative Moves:
  For the first time, LA police have requested DNA from a suspect’s family in the Black Dahlia case; fingerprint analysis is also underway.

Notable Quotes

• Phil (to Baber):

  “I think you may have cracked...the two biggest murder mysteries, cold cases...in American history, my friend.” (52:55)

• Baber (on evidence):

  “[The sketch] was the Trump piece...the first piece in 79 years.” (49:22, 48:35)

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Segment Timestamps — Top Highlights

• Kohberger DNA controversy: 00:55–12:11
• Athena Strand/Tanner Horner testimony: 12:54–26:36
• Athena’s mother on loss: 16:08–18:36
• Defendant’s mother, trial violation: 21:16–22:24
• School psychologist on lack of empathy: 25:05–26:18
• Intro to Zodiac/Black Dahlia segment: 29:34
• Cipher methodology & Margolis named: 31:34–36:07
• Handwriting confirmation by suspect's son: 39:00
• Revealed Black Dahlia sketch, hidden “Zodiac”: 46:46–48:35
• LA police DNA/fingerprint efforts: 53:22–54:33

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Closing Arguments (60:33–68:17)

Phil Holloway on Cold Cases

• Insight: Advances in DNA and technology (e.g., genetic genealogy, database cross-matching, AI analysis) are solving cases once thought unsolvable ("the trail may go cold—but technology rewrites the ending").
• Quote:

  “Justice doesn’t have an expiration date anymore...We just finally have the tools and the people capable of seeing it.” (64:05)

Ashley Merchant on Death Penalty Defense

• Focus: Human impact of the death penalty—on jurors, lawyers, experts, families—and the crucial, misunderstood role of defense attorneys in capital cases, even for the guilty.
• Quote:

  “I think the question for me always, is a human being worth more than the worst thing that they've ever done?” (64:22)

• Stresses the constitutional necessity of defense, and the personal/psychological toll on all participants.

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Notable Quotes & Emotional Moments

• Athena’s mother (on loss and identification):

  “It felt like I was dying. I couldn’t breathe. But I knew I had to keep going. I searched her body, looking for any reason that that wasn’t my baby.” (16:50–18:32)

• Baber (on son’s reaction to Zodiac evidence):

  “He started to shake...he said, ‘We're going to be all right.’ So that to me was like, OK, there’s something here. He recognizes his father’s handwriting.” (39:00–39:49)

• On questioning state-sanctioned death:

  “I just don’t know what I would do if I was on a jury...Is a human being worth more than the worst thing that they’ve ever done?” (64:22)

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Tone and Style

• Legal expertise, empathy, suspense: The discussion is fact-driven and analytical, but deeply humanizing—especially regarding victims' families and the emotional challenges of confronting evil and loss.
• Conversational and respectful: The hosts and guest balance hard facts with measured, respectful speculation, and deference to the pain of those affected by these cases.
• Engaged, credible, and nuanced: Especially in the segment with Alex Baber, the language is dramatic but grounded in research and method, maintaining credibility.

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Useful For:

• Anyone interested in the intersection of law, forensics, and cold case investigation.
• Listeners who want both the “human story” and nuanced analysis behind high-profile criminal cases.
• Followers of legal process and the practical impacts of new forensic/technological methods in justice.

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Further Information/Sources

• For Alex Baber’s work: KillerAnyCode.com and the LA Times podcast “Crimes of the Times.”
• For more on legal insights: Review prior MK True Crime episodes on the Kohberger investigation and breakthroughs in forensic science.

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Transcript

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BMW Group woodwork prohibited by law. See terms and conditions for details. 21+ sponsored by Luckyland Casino. Welcome to the MK True Crime Show. I'm Ashley Merchant. I'm a criminal defense attorney from Atlanta, Georgia. And today I'm joined by my co host and friend, Phil Holloway. He's a criminal defense lawyer, a former prosecutor and a former police officer. Hey, Phil.

[C]

Hey, Ashley. I'm happy to be with you as always today.

[B]

Good to see you. So let's go over what we have on the docket today. There's a defense expert in Bryan Coburger's case who claims the key DNA evidence was not properly handled by the police. We'll discuss the allegations and why Coburger's team is pushing back.

[C]

Plus, we have new details on the Tanner Horner sentencing trial out of Texas. A jury is currently hearing evidence to decide if 7 year old Athena Strand's admitted confessed killer will face life in prison or the death penalty. We'll give you the updates on recent witnesses, including little Athena's mother. And what a psychiatrist thinks about Tanner's alleged alter ego he calls Zero.

[B]

And later, cold case consultant Alex Baber will join the show to revisit the Black Dahlia and Zodiac killer cases. We'll discuss the decades old cipher that Alex cracked and the connection between the two cases. But first, let's talk about Brian Kohberger. So, Phil, this is kind of crazy. The updates that we have is that the defense had hired this expert, so they hired this expert and he reviewed everything. He had an NDA, which for those that don't know what that is, that's a non disclosure agreement. It's essentially something that you sign that says, you know, you're getting information and you're not going to talk about it. So he signs that and then decides he's going to go ahead and talk about it publicly and talk about his findings, which, you know, we can, we can kind of discuss whether or not it's got a whole lot of relevance. But what he's saying is that the police did not actually do the proper chain of custody. So when police get evidence, and in this case it's the knife, there was a sheath over the knife which is like a cover, there was DNA on that. And the police are supposed to document every single person that actually touched that. So what he's saying is that they didn't actually sign that little documentation that's on the outside to establish the chain of custody. Which, you know, if you were arguing could mean that someone else had access to it and essentially planted the DNA. Although I don't think that's really likely in this case. What do you think about that, Phil?

[C]

Yeah, so the, this is all about, you know, chain of custody. Right. And of course, any piece of evidence that's admitted in a criminal trial is supposed to be reliable in many contexts. Reliable. It's supposed to be the actual item that is purported to be. In other words, if they say this is the knife and the sheath that was found, then it's supposed to be the actual one. So if it's something like a, let's just say it's a shell casing. A lot of times a police officer will sort of scratch, literally etch their initials into the shell casing. And so when they get to trial, they can say to the jury, this is the very specific item because my initials here are the same ones that I scratched onto it and I recognize it. Sometimes though, you have to put things in bags and you don't put your initials, you know, carved into them. And so there, there has to be a chain of custody established to show the jury that it is what they say it is. So the defense expert, his name is Brent Turvey, he said the evidence bag for the knife lacked the required signatures and that the chain of custody sticker was later added by a single person, which he says was manufactured. Of course, the defense team is, well, you could say they're distancing themselves from this guy and his claims. And I think for good reason, Ashley.

[B]

No, I Do too. I mean, I definitely do. I think the fact that he went out and talked about this publicly when he has this type of agreement, that's the first issue. I think he's going to have some problems getting other defense work in the future. But what he is saying specifically is that that evidence bag that we just showed fall for the knife, it actually lacked that signature. He's saying that the chain of custody with it on the outside is supposed to have one signature for every person that handled it. And with the trade off, every single person initials it. There's two sets of writings for each, but this one lacked those signatures. Now, the issue here is, you know, we're Monday morning quarterbacking. He took a plea, so it's not really relevant. But would this have affected the outcome? I think that's the real question here. And what happens in these types of cases is the judge would probably have let this evidence in. The judge would probably, yeah, the judge would probably have done something that we call weight versus admissibility. And so just for our viewers, what that means is that it gets admitted in front of the jury. The judge is not going to keep it from the jury. But what the judge is going to do is going to say, well, it goes to the weight. You can argue that lawyer, you can argue that maybe that, you know, this evidence shouldn't carry quite as much weight. But you know what I thought was interesting when I saw this story yesterday? Because I saw it on the news, I started looking and you know how when on social media, when you read an article, all of a sudden all your social media comes up with whatever topic is that you were reading, you know, they're tracking you. Well, all of a sudden I got all these Facebook and Instagram groups about coburger conspiracies. There's a lot of people out there that actually think he didn't do it and that this is a conspiracy. I was floored. I had no idea, Literally no idea.

[C]

Until there's a lot. And I think there's. There, you know, there look. And we can talk about this another day and I'm sure the comments are going to blow up when I say this, but I think there might be a reasonable case for the proposition that maybe he didn't do it alone. But I think it's a stretch to say that he didn't do it. And I also think it's a stretch to say that the chain of custody on this knife sheath was broken. And by the way, we were able to get in touch with the scientist that Runs Othram Labs, which is the lab that pulled the DNA off of that sheath. And I interviewed him here for MK True Crime several months ago. And I would encourage folks to go back and check out that video. But in terms of the chain of custody, look, the seal wasn't broken, okay? The seal was intact. And so in the old days, when you and I maybe started doing this, yeah, you use signatures. Every time an officer or maybe an evidence tech took possession or custody of it and it went to another person, you had two signatures. One who released one of the person who released the item, and one to the. For the person who accepted it. Every little piece in the chain of custody. And it may not have changed hands many times, but when you send things off for testing, it changes hands several times, at least. But now, out in this particular jurisdiction, the police chief has confirmed that the. They don't use signatures. They use barcode scanning at every point. And he points out that the seal was not broken, actually. And so I think there's a good case to be made that this. This expert is maybe kind of full of it a little bit. And just like the defense team, when they've. They've distanced themselves from him and they say, look, the fact that he's. He's violating this NDA sort of should tell you maybe, maybe how credible he is. And I'm paraphrasing, that wasn't their exact words, but that's sort of the message that I got from him. So I think they maybe, maybe they heard this guy's opinion. They. The defense team did not give it much weight or credibility when they were making their decisions on how to proceed with this case. And. And so I think that maybe there's some sour grapes at play here. And also there's a book for sale because this information is contained in a book that's just being released for public from publication today.

[B]

Oh, yeah. I think this is a whole lot of ado about nothing. I can tell you. Sometimes when we have this chain of evidence issue, this chain of custody issue, it can be an issue for the defense, especially if there's a drug case or maybe multiple people were touching something. And so you're worried about a mixture, you know, of DNA. So there are times that this could be relevant, but in this case, it's not really. I mean, this is not something that I would jump at and be like, oh, my God, he's innocent. You know, you need to undo his plea. But what I thought was really interesting is how the defense did come right out against him. And I understand that because, you know, as lawyers, we get information that is privileged. We get information that is confidential. We get information from the government in discovery that we have to sign disclosures. We are. We are bound by certain, you know, privacy laws and disclosure laws. And when I share that with an expert, they're basically under my umbrella, and I'm responsible. So I would have my panties in a huge bind if someone who had signed one of those agreements with me went out and was showing the news stuff that I had not authorized, because that's my bar card on the line and that's my reputation. And I, you know, I'd be pretty mad, too. So I totally get them being mad about this, whether or not this has anything to do with anything. But the other thing that was interesting I saw was co Burger's mom apparently has. And, you know, I don't blame her. I can't even imagine. I mean, if, you know, the horror of a mom finding out that their child is a murderer, but that apparently she initially defended her son. Some of the FBI transcripts have recently been released on the night that he was arrested in the Pennsylvania home. At her home. So the FBI talked to her. They did an interview, and she initially defended her son, saying that he's my angel. My son would not do this. I'll say, stake my life on it. That he's a quiet homebody. He has a 3.8 GPA that they talked regularly. So there were quite a few things that she said where she just did not believe that this was even possible. And I'm sure that it's hard to hear that your son did something like this. I can't even imagine. But I don't think this is a smoking gun that's going to release Bryan Kohberger anytime in the near future.

[C]

No. And. And I want to talk about his mom. But before we move on, I want to. Here's the exact quote from Coburger's defense team related to the allegations by Mr. Turby. The quote is, the defense team is appalled by Mr. Turvey's behavior and his release of documents and information that he knows are confidential. His reliability should be seen through the lens of his conduct. That's pretty stinging. All right, so back to your point about the mother. And, you know, my heart breaks for his mother. My heart breaks for her. Just like the other victims in the case, because family members themselves are victims of crimes. When someone they love and they care about, you know, gets convicted, they. They have been victimized. She's been victimized by her son. Not in the same way or perhaps not to the same extent, obviously as the families of the murder victims. But when she was interviewed by the FBI, this was all very fresh and new to her. The allegations were fresh. And so it's just kind of like going through the stages of grief and denial is one of them. And you know, she's obviously going through her own version of grief. Right. Because her son is spending his life in prison. So what she felt at the time I don't think would necessarily reflect what she felt at the time. She was in court watching him plead guilty, by the way, and I don't think he really, there was a whole lot of sort of they didn't look at each other or anything like that. We don't know what kind of communications they may have had. But what she felt at the time he pled guilty is probably a little different than how she felt at first.

[B]

Yeah, and one of his sisters was actually at that sentencing hearing. And you know, it sounds like they, they didn't say anything to him. He didn't say anything to them. But they were all very, very distraught by it. Premier Hosts on VRBO Deliver quality vacation rental stays with fast and clear instructions. Oh, I had a question. Our host replied super quick Premier move. Wish I had a Premier group chat. They won't even write me back. Book a top rated stay with a Premier host if you know you've Erbo

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[A]

where were you at that time when you got the information that she had just been missing?

[B]

I was in my house. My phone had died, and my older sister came banging on the door like you would have thought the house was on fire. And she just. I opened the door and she said, athena's missing. And immediately I said, no, she's not. So I went and got my phone, and Jacob's name popped up on my phone.

[A]

Some people will say that moms know when things happen.

[C]

Would you agree with that?

[B]

Yes. And I just. It felt like I was dying. I couldn't breathe. But I knew I had to keep going. I almost tapped the brakes because I thought I was having a heart attack. But I just told myself that if I kept going, it would be okay and I would find her. I went in about an hour before I'd actually told Jacob to show up because I didn't know what she would look like, and I didn't know how bad it would be, and I didn't want him to see our daughter like that. So I went in around eight in the morning with just my dad. Her ears were messed up and she had incision lines and her chin was scraped up. And so we put her in a hospital gown because I didn't have clothes for her. And she was naked. And I searched her body, looking for any reason that that wasn't my baby. And then we did her makeup so Jacob wouldn't have to see the discoloration and how bad it was.

[C]

You know, Ashley, I don't know that the prosecution needs a whole lot more evidence than that to justify the death penalty that they're seeking. That's. That's just horrible. And you know, anybody, whether you're a parent or not, you gotta empathize with that mom. There she is with pink. She. She colored. She dyed her hair pink for this. And she's wearing pink because that was little Athena's favorite color. And so if there's anything that puts the horrific nature of the crime of murder into context, it's gotta be that testimony right there.

[B]

I mean, I can't. I cannot even imagine I'm wearing pink in her honor. I saw that the mom is wearing pink. And I'm sure she wants to try to have some connection now, to this little girl, I, I can't imagine sitting as a juror. I mean, I really can't. You know, I have two daughters, you have a daughter. We're going through life's milestones. You know, for those viewers that don't know Phil and my, we're both going through our daughters graduating from high school and getting ready to go off to college and, you know, going through that. And I just, I can't even imagine having to make a decision like this. It's. It's awful. But the defense is doing what they can to try to humanize their client. And I think that really is the goal. And I think it's important for our viewers to really understand that people that do death penalty defense, they very much do not agree with the death penalty. And so the same thing with experts. And I know a lot of experts in this case have gotten a lot of heat and people really hate them and it's easy to get mad at them for doing their job. But I think it's also important to understand a lot of them have very strong religious convictions against the death penalty, moral convictions against the death penalty, just the whole process. And so that sort of draws them to that. So what they're trying to do really is just humanize him to say that the state should not kill him. But we've heard, you know, we actually heard from his mother. So Melissa Horner, who is Tanner's mother, testified on day nine of the trial. She testified about some of the things that happened in his youth and his childhood. You know, kind of a bad upbringing, drinking, drugs, you know, found his mother drunk, you know, passed out from drugs a couple times. Apparently he was sexually assaulted when he was younger by a family member. So there, you know, there are some things that were going on in his trial. She said that she did admit to watching the trial, which was interesting. So she, she's not been able to keep away, and she actually panicked on the stand when they caugh that she had been live streaming the trial. I think we've got that at site 3.

[C]

What is your understanding of what happened

[B]

at first or after right now?

[C]

Well, let's talk about it at first. Well, at first I believed in what

[B]

my son told me. And what did he tell you? That he had backed into a little girl, he panicked and strangled her.

[C]

And so you said at first I believe that.

[A]

And now do you believe something different?

[B]

Yes, I do.

[A]

Have you been watching the live streams?

[B]

Don't get me thrown in jail. What was that?

[C]

Am I going to go to Jail for that? No.

[B]

Yes, I have. Okay, you're.

[C]

You're not.

[A]

I'm just asking if you had to. Ability to watch the trial properly.

[B]

You say it.

[C]

Okay, so now. Now that you've seen those things, what is your understanding about what happened?

[B]

I don't know what to say.

[C]

I'm so sorry.

[A]

I don't know what to say.

[C]

You know, Ashley, this is a defense witness, and by the way, speaking of her watching the. The live stream, she's under instructions, as are all witnesses, not to watch any of the proceedings until after they are released from their subpoena and they finish testifying. So it's technically a violation of the judge's instructions. And so that's why she was saying, you know, don't. Don't let me go to jail. It's technically contemptuous, but in this case, it's. No, I don't think anybody's making a big deal about it, certainly not the prosecution, because the big point here that I want to make is that this mother, Melissa Horner, is. I don't think she's really that great of a defense witness, because I think she's actually helping the prosecution because she gives the jury sort of the impression that even his mother is just mortified at the horrific nature of his crimes. Obviously, she loves him as his mother, but she's very much mortified and appalled by what her son has now admitted to doing. So, honestly, I think that her testimony is probably a net positive for the prosecution.

[B]

Yeah, no, I do, too. And the one thing I did want to point out before we move on to our break, the defense did on. On yesterday, on Tuesday, on day 13 of the trial, they called who I thought was an interesting witness, Dr. Eileen Ryan. And she is a defense expert. She's a psychiatrist. She evaluated Mr. Horner. And one of the things that I've been sort of focused in on is this disassociative disorder, this Zero, that he's been talking about. She testified about that, and she said, regarding zero, Dr. Ryan doesn't believe that he has disassociative identity disorder. She believes zero was a fabrication to help Horner confessed because he was deeply ashamed, and so telling the truth through a third party was easier for him. She also said that his mental health diagnosis did not cause him to hurt Athena or render him insane at the time of the crime. She was just talking about the mitigating factors that she found that said he was a severely compromised individual. So I don't think she did a whole lot of helping either.

[C]

So we've got a little bit of sound if you want to. You want to check that out. We've got SOT5, which is the school psychologist explaining something called a lack of empathy in autism. And I thought this was fascinating because a lack of empathy is something that I think the prosecutor can use in justifying their plea for the death penalty. They're asking the jury to impose death, and I think through this witness for the defense, they can make that claim. Let's take a listen to slot five

[B]

you had in your report. You state that Tanner lacks empathy and has little ability to form friendships. When we talk about empathy, what does that mean? Empathy is feeling those feelings within yourself and understanding them on a more comprehensive level. So when you say that someone lacks empathy, what does that look like in this circumstance for Tanner? For many students on the spectrum with social deficits in this area, it would just mean it was more limited. He or she would not stop to think about how his behavior might be affecting them. Or he or she may not stop and understand that the way he, his maybe his look or his lack of a look made a person feel or do something else. Again, that connection between the way we behave or our mannerisms affect others.

[C]

So to me, look, I just think that this defense strategy, I don't think it's going very well for them, Ashley. I think that the witnesses they're putting up give a lot of ammunition to the prosecution when they stand up at the end of this case and ask the jury to impose the death penalty.

[B]

Oh, definitely. I definitely agree. I don't think so. But let's see. We've got a couple more days. Apparently, it's going to go through. They believe it's going to go through May, the first week of May. But next, we've got cold case investigator Alex Baber joining us to discuss his bombshell new theory in the Black Dahlia and the Zodiac cases and how he deciphered a coded message from the Zodiac killer that is stumped law enforcement for decades. This is such an interesting story. Stay tuned. Just got a new puppy or kitten. Congrats. But also, yikes. Between crates, beds, toys, treats, and those first few vet visits, you've probably already dropped a small fortune, which is where Lemonade pet insurance comes in. It helps cover vet costs so you can focus on what's best for your new pet. The coverage is customizable, sign up is quick and easy, and your claims are handled in as little as 3 seconds. Pro tip, Lemonade offers a package specifically for puppies and kittens. Get a [e-mail] Pet your future self will thank you. Your pet won't. They don't know what insurance is. At DSW we ask the important questions like what shoes are you going to wear? Whether you're prepping for wedding season, festival season or just planning the ultimate vacay, the right shoes can make or break in rsvp. So own the moment. You've got big plans and we've got just the shoes at the perfect price of course. Get ready to get ready with Designer Shoe Warehouse. Head to your DSW store or dsw.com today and let us surprise you. You may have tried everything out there to aid your metabolism and stay healthy. Diets, detox teas, juice cleanses and other so called miracle fixes that are just hype. Verasity is a company founded by a hormonal health expert whose personal experience with metabolic issues inspired her to develop actual holistic solutions for achieving optimal health. Verasity is a unique blend of herbal extracts, green coffee, bean extract and magnesium and it provides an all natural way to get energized, sharpen your focus and a slim down if that's your aim. Their metabolism Ignite formula is the number one doctor recommended GLP1 booster and a natural GLP1 alternative. No side effects, no allergens, just a plant based blend. Clinically shown to reduce hunger by 85% and help people lose an average of 9 pounds in 90 days. Verasity is drug free, clinically proven and doctor formulated safe for everyone including expecting or new moms breastfeeding. Just two capsules with breakfast to feel more energized, clear headed and in control. It's simple, natural and actually fits seamlessly in your daily routine. So before metabolism ignite sells out yet again, make the switch to GLP1's the Natural Way. Head to verasityhealth.com and use code MK for up to 65% off your order. Once again, that's veracityhealth.com for up to 65% off. And make sure you use my promo code MK so that they know we sent you.

[C]

Welcome back to the MK True Crime Show. I'm Phil Holloway along with my co host today, Ashley Merchant. Joining us now is Cold Case Consultants of America founder Alex Baber. Alex, welcome to the program. Before we get into it with you, and I know you've got a lot to talk about here, I want to start with a very quick recap of two historic, and I mean really historic true crime cases in the United States. This is first, the Zodiac killer who was a Notorious murderer who terrorized Northern California throughout the 60s. He shot and killed at least five people that we know of. But what makes this case stand out is that the killer sent multiple letters and signed with the infamous Zodiac symbol, and he shared encrypted messages with the media. Some of these ciphers were decoded, but others have remained uncracked for decades. Alex here has recently announced that he solved one of them, the so called Z13 cipher. And then we have Elizabeth Short, an aspiring actress known as the Black Dahlia was found murdered and mutilated in Los Angeles all the way back in 1947. While investigators had a number of suspects in the notorious case, Short's killer has never been identified. Now, Alex has a theory, and I think it's actually maybe more than a theory, that the Zodiac killer and Elizabeth Short's murderer could be the very same exact person. Alex, thank you so much for joining us, because this is actually something I've been looking forward to now for quite some time. These two cases historically, are cases that I have been fascinated with as a student of criminal justice for my entire adult life. And I think that you may have cracked them both wide open. So I'll let you just take it away and tell us what you have learned.

[A]

Thank you for having me, guys. It's a pleasure being here. So to start, all this began with the Z13 cipher and me approaching it from a scientific point of view. I figured that it was not an infinite number. If I could calculate every possible solution based on frequency and letter count of the 13 symbols, that I might be able to identify a potential candidate or person of interest. So I approached using the SSA or Social Security Administration's records of male first middle names as well as surnames. At that point, I used a C program and AI progression to generate over 71 million potential candidates. And then we started eliminating potential candidates in comparison to real world individuals. And the pools kept getting smaller and smaller and smaller until we got down to 185. Then we got down to 35, then we got down to 14, then we got down to 1. And that one individual was Marvin Merrill.

[B]

So how did you get down from, you know, you said the 135 to 35. I mean, are you changing the parameters and, you know, learning new clues like, how does it go from there to. To this guy?

[A]

So what we do is we structure the methodologies or new methodologies of cryptography. So we want to start out with your basic substitution, and then we cross reference all the possibilities there, and then we Move on to the precedent that was set whenever David Oranchak and his team cracked the Z340. In December of 2020, we learned that the Zodiac dual labored or dual layered his cipher with a substitution and a transposition. So that kind of planted a seed in my mind that if I were to, you know, kind of shrink down the concept of the theory to 13 symbols, what would be the most common structure? Because all of his ciphers are in grids. So I did a two by seven, adding what's called a null, and then I started placing in multiple letter variations based on the character count. And once we were able to identify that, we had only 5040 possibilities of names. And then we just worked our way backwards and reverse engineered it.

[C]

So can you tell us just for context here? So we've got four ciphers, you know, were sent to the media. There were. Some of them were decoded, and they were saying things like, I like killing people because it's so much fun. I hope you're having lots of fun trying to catch me. So the Zodiac killer was literally, like, taunting police through his contacts with the media. What was different about this particular cipher that you have decoded as opposed to the other ones?

[A]

Okay, so it's. It's a very short cipher, has 13 symbols opposed to the 408 that was cracked by the hardens in August of 1969. And then the one that David Ranchek and his team cracked in December had 340. So mathematically, it would be extremely complicated, but we knew, again, it wasn't an infinite number. There would be one ultimate solution. We just had to identify it. So we needed to figure out the best possible methodology that would apply. And again, as I just said, we just used the methodology or precedent that was set in the 340 and kind of shrunk it down to a much smaller scale and applied it.

[B]

So this cipher stuff, I'm curious because I'm not a math person. So when you see all this cipher stuff, what does it tell you about the suspect, about the killer?

[A]

Oh, he's highly intelligent. Once we identified him, we found out they had a plus 160 IQ level intellectual quality. With that being said, that made it even more interesting because now I started to understand him as an individual rather than just somebody that's been, you know, placed in movies and played out and, you know, the. The Internet, of course, it's. It's a. It's a barn burn. When it comes to Zodiac or so many forms, there's so many Groups on Facebook. Right. So you got to get down to the foundation or the structure of the perpetrator himself and then go from there. So once I was able to identify who he was, I had a better understanding of why he was doing what he was doing.

[C]

Okay, so tell us about that. Tell us who he was. And by that I mean, like, what is his name, his background, all of that, and then we can move over and talk about Black Dahlia and the connection there that you found.

[A]

Well, Morva Margolis was born March 25, 1925, in Chicago to two parents, Irvin and a Lillian Margolis. He's the oldest of three boys. He had two brothers. One was named Milton, one was named Donald. He had a rough childhood. We do have his psyche vows. When he got out of the military, we have two of them. He was afraid of the dark, afraid of closets until he was 14. He used to walk in his sleep. He would threaten to run away from home. He had a very, you know, complicated childhood, in my opinion. And then he joined the Navy in Chicago in March of 1943. At that point, he was shift to the west coast in Washington, and he became a Naval corpsman. And he was assigned to the 1st Marine Division in World War II and was part of the landing for Okinawa, which is one of the most bloodiest battles in all of World War II, according to records. He was on the front lines. He was injured. He was in a cave. He had a med unit set up in a cave. Fire was being taken, it rained, the cave caved in. He survived. He was buried up to his neck. So he had to dig himself out. He had. Back then, they referred to a shell shock, but we call it PTSD by today's standards. And back then, they didn't know how to treat it, really. So a lot of these soldiers were coming back from overseas and they were. You know, a lot of them had criminal activity or things that were red flags that we would have marked today that was overlooked at that time.

[C]

Once you had the. Once you had the name as sort of the identity. After solving the. The cipher, what did you do to further sort of your investigation into the Zodiac?

[A]

Okay, so at that point, we were able to obtain a collection of the letters, all the FBI files, documentation. We're able to do linguistic similarities to verify that. Which letters are original, which ones were hoaxes over the years. And then we were able to comp. Marvin Margolis's handwriting and his linguistics, which matched up, including the phonetic misspellings, which is very odd. That was one of the, the foundations that we started. When we got the investigation and received the samples from the sun, we knew right then that we were on the right road.

[C]

Okay, well, who is. Who is the son? Let me stop you there and let's break this down. So who is the son? How did you contact his son? And, and what information were you able to get from his son? Son.

[A]

Okay, so I won't use his name on record. I gave my word to him. But he's youngest of four children, and it was second marriage. We had identified them through genealogy. We approached him through social media. I told him I was doing a research paper on World War II. And then once we opened conversation, I told him, I said, look, I'm investigating the Zodiac case and I think that your father is a primary suspect based on the information we've uncovered, we identified.

[B]

What was his reaction like? Did he have any idea at that point?

[A]

No, he was. He was open. And then at that point, I said, look, can we come visit you? I would like to show you what we've uncovered. And he was open to that. So me and my partner drove five and a half hours to Upper State New York. We met him at a public restaurant, and then we showed him our evidence. We turned around, the first thing we did was show him the handwriting sample right, from Zodiac. And at that moment, he became very disturbed, but not in a way of. Of anxiety, but more in a. A factor of him saying, okay. He recognized the handwriting. He started to shake. He reached out and like I said before, for the first time of all the interviews I've ever done, one of the interviewees reached out and grabbed my hand, initiated contact, and he said, we're going to be all right. So that to me was like, okay, there's something here. He recognizes his father's handwriting.

[C]

And then, well, had his father had. Had Marvin Margolis ever been on anyone's radar, or even his radar as potentially a suspect in the Zodiac killings?

[A]

Negative. No one were the first person to present him as a person of interest in no suspect.

[B]

So the son, I mean, this just caught him completely off guard. Or did. Did he ever divulge if he had any, you know, concerns about his dad or, I mean, anything?

[A]

There were stories, right, from the families that we've heard and friends and associates that have known him for decades. He had a violent temporary short fused. He was abusive to the women in the family. The stepdaughter he went after, threatening to kill her. The mother had to hold him at knife point until police arrived. And arrested him. He had a violent nature to him. He was described by some family members as being a sociopath.

[B]

Wow.

[A]

And at that point, when we showed him the handwriting and we got the feel, you know, when we saw that he recognized it, I said, okay, white to drop a bomb. So I'll show on you, but I have something else I want to share. Did you know that your father was the last known boyfriend of Elizabeth Short, the Black Dahlia? And he said, no.

[C]

So. All right, let me. Can I pause you there for a second real quick? Because I, I want to. We're going to get into the connection, and I think it's pretty strong connection you're making there with Block Dahlia. So in my intro, I did a. I gave a little bit of background about the Black Dahlia, but if you can add to that and just sort of tell our audience more about who she was and about the sort of the circumstances of her death and that investigation and maybe why it stalled.

[A]

So Elizabeth Short was one of five daughters. Her mother, which was Phoebe, and her father was Cleo. And when the, the Great depression happened in 1929, 1930, he staged his drowning at the Charlestown Bridge in Boston and he abandoned the family. So the mother races the five daughters on her own. And what we would call today is. Is being, you know, daddy. Issues by terminology was developed by Elizabeth. She always wanted to be with an older man, preferably military, somebody that was secure, somebody she felt safe with. So the. Most of the men she dated were military men, and she was dating a few. She had a lung issue with asthma. She had surgery. Her family shipped her to friends in Miami, where she would stay during the winter months and come back during the summer months. And she got a letter from Cleo, who had disappeared. Everybody thought he was deceased. And that was in 1942. He said, Look, I'm in Vallejo, California. Why don't you come with me? I need help housekeeping for somebody. And I'll pay. I'll send 200 and pay for your. Your bus ticket and you come out here and help me. So she accepted. She traveled. She left Dec. 15 in 1942. She arrived Dec. 20 in Vallejo, which correlates with the first attack of the. The Zodiac in 1968. She took residence less than 600ft from where the phone booth was used by Zodiac after the blue rocks.

[C]

So let me pause you there. The phone booth. Now, look, I'm doing this by memory, so please correct me if I'm wrong, because I've, like a lot of People, I've seen some of the documentaries and shows about this. The phone booth, is that rel. Is that related to the taxi cab driver who was the victim of the Zodiac? Is that what you're referring to?

[A]

Negative. That would be the third attack or fourth attack. That would be the Prestigio. The. The one that I'm referring to is the second one, which was on July 5, just past midnight at Blue Rock Springs. So after he committed the murder of Darlene Farron and injured Michael McGo, he actually drove downtown. They don't know if he came down to me, which would be north to south, or came from east to west on Spring Road. But he stopped at 700 tulumi, which is the corner of Spring Road, and he placed a phone call to Vallejo pd. When he was placing that phone call, he could see the front door. Elizabeth Short's first residence in 1942.

[C]

So we're talking about literally the same geographic area, 20, 20 years apart, two decades apart. But we're talking about a serial killer that I guess looks like was operating in that area for much. I guess longer and started much earlier than we thought. If this is the same person.

[A]

Yeah, we'd be in the California State region. He had moved north, had two residents, one under an alias, and that's when he was committing his crimes under the Zodiac moniker as the Black Dahlia Avenger. He committed the one murder we can confirm, which is Elizabeth Short. There's other murders that have been remotely tied to him by other investigators or authors. Unfortunately, we can't confirm those. What we can confirm is that he murdered Elizabeth Short. And then we had a few other murders that are on our radar, one that we can feel pretty comfortable about, which is Ray Davis, a cab driver in Oceanside, 1962, April. That is identical to Paul Stein's attack in 69. You have the phone call the police, saying, you're going to kill somebody. Commits the murder of the taxi cab driver. He dumps the. The body behind a former mayor's residence. He drives the vehicle across town two miles. He dumps in an alley within 300ft of his own, his residence at that time. And then he calls the next day and says, I told you, I commit the murder, now I'm gonna take out a bus. It's exact same.

[C]

All right, so I know we're switching back and forth, but I think I find this connection to be fascinating. So, on January 15th of 1947, the woman we're referring to, Elizabeth Smart, was. The Black Dahlia was located. She was 22 years old. She had been literally cut in half. And they thought that at the time investigators did, that this was someone with some type of medical training. And here we have this individual now. And he, of course, was a corpsman during World War II. And so what I think I hear you painting the picture of is somebody who comes back from the war, and they've got PTSD and they've got this medical sort of knowledge, and. And now we have what looks like maybe a serial killer becoming active and over the decades, changing his MO A little bit and maybe switching up to the moniker of the Zodiac Killer. But you actually have something that ties this suspect to Elizabeth in the form of a sketch, is that right?

[A]

That's correct. Whenever we met with the sun and we shared the Black Dahlia connection as well, he says, what was her name again? I said, elizabeth Short. He said, elizabeth, I have something to show you. So he starts flipping through his skin, his phone, and all these photographs. It turns around and shows me an image of a sketch. Oh, you have the actual. There's nothing covered here. Okay. So we got to see this sketch. And I was in a moment of shock, and I believe. I said, oh, crap. Right. And I said, can you send me a copy of this? He said, yeah, I'll just take it in my residence. And you can see it on the wall. So he had.

[C]

Hanging on the wall. He had this sketch hanging on the wall.

[B]

Oh, my God.

[A]

Yeah. His father had created it in 92 when he was diagnosed with stage 4 cancer. He was at the end of his life, and he drew this. He died in July of 1993, which is seven months after the new year. And then this was created in the. In the fall time of that year, from my understanding. So he knew his days were numbered. And it's kind of. It's kind of an odd sketch. First thing that stands out to us is the fact that there's no navel. Appears to be laying in something stark on both sides, almost like a tub, like it's full of blood. The one nipple on the left side has been severed. If you zoom in, you can see there's two lines that extend beyond the. The drawing or tissue. You have these stab wounds in the middle of the torso, which appears to be smeared blood. And whenever we did a macro lens on the sketch itself, we found out that at the corner of the mouth, there's indentation that looks like a slash that goes all the way up her cheek. So these are precise wounds that are depicted within this sketch that the perpetrator would have been familiar with.

[C]

Well, there's something more that you found also. I don't. It was, I think, in the bottom right corner, something much more specific. Tell us what that is.

[A]

Well, we want to drive back. I was interested in the sketch and knowing the Zodiac and how I like to play games. I started using contrast layers and peeling off the. The color and shifting the. The focus. And after about four or five layers, I started to see what appeared to be a word located in the right corner area between the torso and the left arm. And as I continued to peel off the layers, it exposed what appeared to be the word Zodiac. Capital Z, lowercase D, lowercase I, lowercase A, lowercase C. And at that moment, I said to my partner, I see something here. I think it says Zodiac. She's like, what? So she pulls up, we're driving. She pulls off the road and. And takes it and looks at.

[B]

She.

[A]

I see Zodiac. And then, you know, shortly after that, we went to the detectives, the retired detectives, Mitzi Roberts and Rick Jackson, and we. And Michael Conley. We did the podcast, and we shared it with them. And they. They were like, oh, yeah, we see Zodiac all day long. So, you know, at that moment, we knew that we had a piece of physical evidence that we could account for the first piece in 79 years in Elizabeth Schwartz case. So we had to obtain that, which we did, son. Turned it over. We taped it up and secured it and boxed it and shipped it to LA to have testing done on it.

[B]

So it's almost like a confession, a deathbed confession, this sketch. Right.

[A]

That's how.

[B]

Were there any other sketches that he had or that he knew?

[A]

We had some that was turned over to us later. There were smaller tablets of naked women in different poses, some of them resembling Elizabeth. But this was the. This was the. The Trump piece, as I would call it.

[B]

Yeah. Oh, yeah.

[C]

What. What other connections were there between Margolis and Elizabeth back in the. And in, I guess, the 1946, 47 time frame? Were there some other connections that these two may have had?

[A]

Yeah, well, we know that we identified them as meeting each other in Chicago, 1946, while she was in there between June 24 and 12 July. That's when we identified their meeting. We do that because she approached CBS Studios with a gentleman that had a Chicago PD badge. It was later identified by Jack Egger, who was the head usher at that time, who later went on to become the investigator for the LA District Attorney's office and was also the captain of police for Hollywood and retired there. So he's a credible witness. He said that the gentleman that flashed the Chicago badge with Elizabeth Short to cut in line was Marvin Margolis. So we can place that back based on the other interviews that were done by the investigators. There was reporters in Chicago at that time that said, look, she was talking about meeting a detective here that was familiar with William Hiron's case, in particular Suzanne Dean's murder, which is the young girl, six year old. He was bisected between the L2, L3 vertebrae, the same as Elizabeth Short. So there's, there's a lot of things here, connective tissue that we uncovered. And then we found out that they were dating. She was scared of him. She told a couple of her friends, Alex Constance, who was a roommate, she said, look, I, I afraid of him. I'm afraid to break up with him. He's so, like, possessive. And then they moved together. October 10th to the 22nd of 46. She went on a date, a friendly date with gentleman named George Balcos. Because his girlfriend, Lynn Martin, was working. He had two tickets when they missed the show at 7pm they drove up and parked in Lovers Lane. They spent a couple hours there. George said that there was no physical activity between them. I don't know if that's true or not. What I do know is when he brought her back and dropped her off in Margot's apartment, he threatened her life for the first time. And she left all of her belongings, was walking the street on Hollywood Boulevard that morning. So she was scared enough to leave everything she owned behind this apartment and have another man named Glenn Kearns return to gather her belongings.

[C]

So it's just so typical in murder cases. You know, it's so oftentimes it's someone that's like in the victim's immediate circle. And this, I guess, turns out to be true to that pattern that we see in all kinds of cases. But I think, to me, this whole thing is fascinating. I had a question for Ashley, though. Ashley, so you're the judge here. Let's just say you're a judge, and let's say that you can transport back in time to 1947. Would there be probable cause to arrest Margolis for the murder of Elizabeth?

[B]

I feel like that drawing might be enough. They would at least question him. And my guess is Margolis would give some clues during his questioning. You know, and I think we'd have to look a lot at what type of person he was if he was going to say anything. But I think if they had suspected him, they would have been watching him, and then he would have led to some clues. And if you think about it, at that point, if they could get a search warrant, for example, I'm sure he didn't do a great job cleaning up the blood. You know, he had to do all this stuff somewhere. So I think it would have led to something that would have led to an arrest warrant.

[C]

I agree. And Alex, I think, my friend, I think you have solved some of the two biggest murder mysteries, cold cases. And I'm going to talk more about cold cases in the next segment, but I think you've solved some of the biggest cold cases in American history, my friend.

[B]

So what's next, Alex, this is so insane. What are you going to do next with all of this information? Because I'm sure you're not done. You seem like the, the type that's going to be still super sleuthing through this.

[A]

Well, we got a few other things going on right now. For the first time in history, LAPD approached a suspect family to get DNA. That's never happened in Elizabeth's case.

[C]

Case.

[A]

So we got some forensic stuff going on. We got some fingerprint analysis.

[C]

Hold on. Wait, wait, wait.

[B]

Did they have DNA in that case?

[C]

Yeah, I don't mean to cut you. I was, I was going to ask that question. Do they actually have some DNA from Elizabeth case that they can possibly compare it to?

[A]

Okay, so that's a great question. Not as of right now, but there's going to be an attempt to extract it. So we're going to look and see if they can do that. But we know that the evidence was not stored properly. There's a lot of, of the potential for contamination. However, if we do get it DNA, right, and it's on one of the packages or the leftover letters or postcards that were supposed to be poison pens. There's no reason his DNA should be on any of those. So right there, it's, it's a done deal in Elizabeth. And we have other things going on. We have fingerprints right now. We just received, so we have access for the first time. And we've, we've got some really good. But let's put it this way. I can only say so much, guys. I feel that we're sitting in the right seats in this investigation.

[B]

Oh, my God. This is so cool. I hope you keep us posted.

[C]

Yeah, man. Look, I think that's, that's really good stuff, and I hope you'll be willing to come back here on the program sometime once we once we know more, because I think my theory and I look out, it's almost, it's almost more than a theory. I think what you identified as you identified sort of the beginnings of a serial killer's long career over multiple decades, right. Going through the 60s and into the 70s, possibly. And I think there's a lot more about the Zodiac, for example, that we don't know. And if you have a 20 year gap, I think it just stands to reason that he was not inactive during that time period. But look, we got to leave it there. Thank you again for joining us. Before you you take off, Alex, where can our listeners and viewers find you?

[A]

They can give me at the website for CCCOA us if you Google me. We have Killer any code dot com, which is Michael Connolly's podcast that covers me as well as the LA Times has just released a four part podcast as well which is called the Crimes of the Times and they're both very popular. So if you guys want to hear the story firsthand from myself and the other detectives that have worked it and the experts that have confirmed it it, please feel free to tune in and we'd love to hear your comments.

[C]

All right, thanks so much. All right, folks, coming up, we have another fantastic new show to talk to you about that is joining our MK True Crime family this week. And we have our closing argument. So stay tuned. Mud, sand, snow, the track.

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[B]

I do like the name. It goes back to the old ancient

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the audience you had to be at

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And every young lawyer, myself included, has their first or second time in court. They will make this the mistake of walking in the well. It's like the forbidden part of the courtroom where nobody's supposed to be. How many times have you seen a bailiff reach for his gun when you kind of step a little too close to the well? I went on a dive trip last year and there was a German judge on the boat with me. And her husband was an avid fly fisherman, constantly fly fishing all day.

[B]

And he was the nicest guy in the world.

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And he was always telling us fly fishing stories.

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And she would sit down and she, she would say, old men are full of stories. And that's basically you and me, Mark.

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We're, we're old men, we're full of

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stories and we're going to share those

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as we go through the interesting cases of the day.

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But if nothing else, Mark, if nobody

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listens to us, it'll be super fun for me. So I. I agree. I'll talk to you anytime. New episodes drop every Friday on the MK True Crime YouTube channel and all podcast platforms.

[B]

Go and subscribe now and we will see you soon. Awesome. Well, new episodes of in the well will drop every Friday, so be sure to subscribe to our MK True Crime YouTube channel and follow us on social media to stay up to date on all of our new content. And now it's time for our closing arguments. Phil, take it away.

[C]

All right. Thank you, Ashley. You know, look, I really enjoyed that conversation with Alex in our last segment about the. The cold cases, the Black Dahlia case, and of course, the Zodiac Killer. Those kinds of things have always fascinated me, ever since I was old enough to know what criminal justice was, Right? So today I want to talk more about cold cases. Why they go cold and why they're now heating up. So you imagine a brutal crime scene such as the ones we've been discussing here today. You got evidence scattered everywhere. You've got detectives working literally around the clock. And in cases like the Zodiac Killer, multiple jurisdictions involved sometimes, and then there's nothing. The trail just sometimes goes cold. Some cases go unsolved for one simple reason. The evidence just isn't there when it's needed most. Or in cases like the Zodiac, they didn't have the Internet, they didn't have tv, they didn't have. Or they had tv, they didn't have. The Internet is what I was looking for. The law enforcement is not able to communicate the way that they can today. So sometimes the lack of communication leads to cases going cold. And sometimes witnesses, though, they're just too scared to come forward. Or maybe they're just too unreliable. Sometimes you have fingerprints and other things that don't match anything known in the system. The only DNA sample perhaps is too tiny or too degraded for the 1990s lab equipment that maybe is on hand for that equipment to read. And police departments are oftentimes, you know, they're swamped with current cases, fresh cases, things that are happening now. So older cases sometimes get filed away and they're just labeled as inactive. Years pass and suspects die, like we've talked about here today. And sometimes memories fade. So what was once a red hot investigation will turn into a dusty box in a storage room. And so that's the classic cold case scenario. But here's what's changing Everything. Technology is rewriting the ending. Today. A single skin cell, such as we've seen, like in the Coburger case, for example, small amounts of DNA left on a old cigarette package or a cigarette butt can yield DNA and oftentimes even a full profile. And forensic scientists, they use something called genetic genealogy. They upload that DNA into a public ancestry database, and then they build a family tree until they find their killer. So that's exactly how, for example, the Golden State Killer was caught in 2018 after 40 years on the run. And, of course, is how Co Burger was caught. Digital fingerprint databases also now search millions of prints in a matter of seconds. Artificial intelligence AI can enhance blurry old security footage, match voices, and even link seemingly unrelated cases across state lines. Touch DNA, familial searching and rapid DNA machines that work in a matter of hours instead of weeks also help to solve these cases. And of course, we can't leave out the sheer force of human will on the part of cold case investigators like Alex, professional and amateur alike. More and more, we see these things pulling cold cases back into the light so justice doesn't have an expiration date anymore. The evidence was always there. We just now finally have the tools and the people capable of seeing it. And every solved cold case reminds us someone somewhere is still waiting for answers and there's still work yet to be done. Ashley.

[B]

Thank you so much, Phil. And that was amazing. That was a really amazing story. I love that. I've always been fascinated by the Zodiac killer and that whole cold case, so we're definitely going to keep following that. Well, so I'm actually going to change topics. My original closing argument. I had promised all of our viewers a couple days ago that I was going to share another story about the gang databases, and I promise I'll get to that at some point. But today I felt compelled to talk about something a little bit different just because of what we talked about earlier with the Tanner Horner case and how we've been covering this case and just how troubling this case is, I think, for everybody. And so I just want to talk for a minute about death penalty, about defending a death penalty case. Just everything that's sort of related to death penalty. I alluded to it earlier, but I think the question for me always, is a human being worth more than the worst thing that they've ever done? And that's the question with Tanner Horner. Is his life worth more than the absolute worst thing imaginable, the worst thing that a human could do, which he did Undisputably to little Athena. But I think a lot of times folks vilify, and I've seen this online, I see this all the time. They vilify the people that are standing by his side. And I think that's a misunderstanding. People think that that, that means that the defense lawyers perhaps like him or perhaps think he doesn't deserve to die. I don't think that that's the case. It is rarely a case that the defense lawyers actually believe that their client doesn't perhaps deserve to get the exact same punishment that they put upon someone else. I think the real question for most people, myself included, because I do defend death penalty cases, is whether or not we as a society have the right to extinguish a life. And the problem a lot of times is this is the ultimate act of premeditation. And people don't really think about that, but it is, it is homicide. When someone is executed with the death penalty, it is listed on their death certificate as homicide. It is a premeditated murder. It is a very cold, calculated murder that we as a society carry out. And one of the things for me, that really was compelling for me to be against the death penalty, which I know is not a popular opinion, but. And it's hard, I'll tell you. Cases like, like Tanner's case really do test my resolve on that. And I just don't know what I would do if I was on a jury. But I think about all of the people that are involved in death penalty case and all of the vicarious trauma. We've had viewers talk to us and ask us questions about the jurors and how this impacts the jurors. It, of course, impacts them. You've got to think about how it impacts those jurors. And if they do vote for death, they're going to be impacted for many, many years as the process is drawn out through the appellate process, through an eventual actual execution. There's vicarious trauma for the lawyers. And so they're getting vilified right now for defending Tanner Horner for doing their job, a job that the Constitution requires, and a job if we did not have them defending him, we could not have the death penalty. Part of the reason that we're allowed to have the death penalty is the requirement that there's death qualified lawyers. And they also have to do a good job, because if they don't do their best, the death sentence is not going to stand. So when people are vilifying the lawyers for doing their job, it's really important to remember that if they don't do their job, the death penalty can never be carried out. But the biggest thing that I just want to mention is the fact that killing another human, another citizen, another person, is a lot for the, for the jurors to have to think about, for the people who are guarding him, the people that are actually processing, you know, doing the death penalty, actually carrying that out. And it's a lot for the lawyers. And so I just caution everyone to rush to judgment against the psychiatrists that are testifying, the mental health experts, the mother, the lawyers, all of those people, because they're doing their job and they're an integral part of the system. And perhaps they just don't think that the state should engage in premeditated murder. Well, thank you so much and thank you to our guest Alex Baber and to my co host, Phil Holloway. And thank you for joining us. I hope everyone has a fabulous week.

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