Perez Hilton’s Psychotic Break, Patrick Clancy Conspiracies, and the Reflecting Pool Case Reversal

Summary

MK True Crime Podcast

Episode: Perez Hilton’s Psychotic Break, Patrick Clancy Conspiracies, and the Reflecting Pool Case Reversal

Hosts: Mark Yergos & Matt Murphy
Date: August 7, 2026

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Episode Overview

This episode dives into three headline-making stories: Perez Hilton's widely publicized psychotic episode and ensuing debate over men's mental health, wild conspiracy theories in the Patrick Clancy child murder case, and the legal and ethical fallout from the Reflecting Pool vandalism prosecution reversal. Throughout, hosts Mark Yergos and Matt Murphy—both seasoned legal professionals—share personal experience-based insights, dissect legal nuances, and wrestle with the media-driven nature of true crime discourse.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Perez Hilton's Psychotic Break and Men's Mental Health

• Incident Recap: Perez Hilton live-streamed a suicide attempt, shocking followers and sparking public debate about men's mental health and the role of social platforms ([02:15]).
• Media & Public Response: The incident was variously remembered as a “moderator malfunction,” “slow-speed car wreck,” and even, on some corners of the internet, “demonic possession” ([02:39], Murphy).
• Mental Health Crisis Among Men: Both hosts draw on deeply personal loss—Murphy lost a brother and friend to suicide, Yergos a college roommate—and note that male suicides permeate all demographics ([03:43]). They highlight society’s neglect of men’s mental health, especially when compared with the attention given to, for example, Pride Month ([02:39], Murphy).
• Criminal Justice Pipeline: Discussion centers on how the largest effective “mental health facility in the world” is the LA County Jail; nearly all criminal cases are said to involve substance abuse or mental health ([07:05], Yergos).
• Systemic Gaps: The hosts criticize “defund the police” policies for unintentionally cutting vital jail-based mental health care and stress bipartisan urgency for reform ([08:35], Murphy).

Notable Quotes

• “Almost everybody I know who has suicided and taken their own life has been a man. I had a brother who did it. I had a buddy who did it.”—Matt Murphy ([03:12])
• “One of the things about mental health. It cuts across every kind of demographic that you would want. ... It plagues everyone.”—Mark Yergos ([04:19])
• “I hope Perez Hilton ... gets the help he needs. There are those like Kurt Cobain who will attempt multiple times before they finally do it.”—Matt Murphy ([09:22])

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2. Review of Current High-Profile Legal Cases

a. The Florida "Mormon Hitman" Case

• Key Issue: The judiciary is grappling with balancing cellphone privacy rights of a widow against a defendant’s right to discovery in a death penalty case, which recently had the death penalty removed ([09:47], Murphy).
• Legal Nuance: With the death penalty off the table, privacy arguments weigh more heavily; less defensible to demand wide-open access to victim data ([10:52], Murphy).
• Perspective: Both agree on the importance of tailoring rights and access to the severity of potential punishment.

b. Reflecting Pool Case & Prosecution Ethics

• Background: Janine Piro, D.C. U.S. Attorney, dropped charges against Olympian David Hearn for vandalizing the presidentially-endorsed Reflecting Pool when new evidence indicated a contractor error.
• Presidential Backlash: The President reportedly “went ballistic,” wrongly accusing Piro of cowardice and dereliction ([15:26], Yergos).
• Legal/Ethical Stand: Both hosts defend Piro, extolling the prosecutor’s duty to “do the right thing” by dropping cases lacking a solid basis, and draw parallels to what critics hoped Fani Willis and other high-profile prosecutors would do in the Trump cases ([16:55], Murphy).
• Chilling Effect on Prosecutors: They warn that discipline for dropping a faulty case is not just unfair, but may encourage unjust prosecutions ([22:01], Yergos).

Notable Quotes

• “You have to go into court and dump [the case]. ... That is the job of a good prosecutor.”—Matt Murphy ([16:55])
• “Shame on you for cheering disciplinary action of her. ... I would defend Jeanine for free on the disciplinary side because it’s an outrage.”—Mark Yergos ([22:01])

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3. Patrick (Lindsey) Clancy Child Murders: Facts and Internet Conspiracies

• Case Summary: Lindsey Clancy is on trial in Massachusetts for the murder of her three children, followed by a suicide attempt that left her paralyzed. Her husband has testified in her defense and publicly forgiven her ([24:17], Murphy).
• Rise of Online Conspiracies: Social media conspiracy theories claim the husband is the real killer due to “different shoes” and his subsequent remarriage. Murphy denounces the viral, evidence-free speculation as a threat to real justice ([24:54]-[27:24]).
• Psycholegal Issues: The case exposes confusion about Massachusetts’ insanity defense (less categorical than standard McNaughton rule)—the burden stays with the prosecution, standards are “squishy,” and trial/bifurcation procedures are complex, potentially confusing juries and impacting outcomes ([29:01]-[31:53]).
• Emotional Weight of Evidence: Both discuss the harrowing 911 tape and the father’s emotionally charged courtroom presence ([33:34]-[36:26]), noting the impact on potential jury sympathy and the powerful effect of Clancy’s current paralysis ([36:57], Murphy).

Notable Quotes

• “Now in the modern era ... it seems like every high profile case, there has to be some cuckoo conspiracy theory. ... So many people jump onto this stuff. … It’s like wildfire.”—Matt Murphy ([25:18])
• “If this guy is an actor …” —Mark Yergos, incredulous at conspiracy claims given the genuine 911 call ([35:31])

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4. Tales of In the Well: Legal Oddities and Personal Stories

• Revenge Porn & Anti-SLAPP Lawsuits: Yergos discusses a recent appellate win for a client in a high-profile revenge porn case involving Vanderpump Rules stars. He is astounded that perpetrators often file “anti-SLAPP” motions—a law intended to protect free speech, not shield illegal acts ([40:12]-[42:45]). He also highlights the expansion of anti-SLAPP statutes to criminal cases in Arizona, querying implications for future legal strategies.
• Law and Technology: Murphy notes how legal procedures and privacy protections (like requiring search warrants for cellphones) struggle to keep pace with new tech-enabled abuses ([42:45]-[44:01]).

Notable Quotes

• “People commit a crime and then when you get sued for committing the crime ... you file an anti-SLAPP against the person who is the victim. ... It is mind boggling to me.”—Mark Yergos ([40:52])
• “The law is evolving all the time to kind of keep up with technology, and it seems like the law is always a few steps behind.”—Matt Murphy ([44:01])

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Memorable Moments & Quotes (with Timestamps)

• “Almost everybody I know who has suicided and taken their own life has been a man. I had a brother who did it. I had a buddy who did it.” – Matt Murphy ([03:12])
• “It's one of the things about mental health. It cuts across every kind of demographic ... It plagues everyone.” – Mark Yergos ([04:19])
• “You have to go into court and dump it. ... That is the job of a good prosecutor.” – Matt Murphy ([16:55])
• “Now in the modern era ... It seems like every high profile case, there has to be some cuckoo conspiracy theory.” – Matt Murphy ([25:18])
• “If this guy is an actor ...” – Mark Yergos, about Clancy case conspiracies ([35:31])
• “It's a pox on both their houses. ... Shame on you for cheering disciplinary action of her.” – Mark Yergos (on political bias in prosecution, [22:01])
• “It is a train wreck and it's horrible no matter what happens. And I just, those poor kids, it's just, it's awful.” – Matt Murphy ([38:23])
• “If you had been a prosecutor ... 400 years ago, you would have prosecuted Romeo for being a stalker.” – Mark Yergos ([45:54])

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Segment Timestamps

• 00:55 – Hosts open; Murphy discusses location; intro to Perez Hilton incident
• 02:39 – Discussion of male suicide, personal loss, mental health and the criminal system
• 09:47 – Florida Mormon contract case: death penalty, privacy vs. discovery
• 13:15 – Reflecting Pool case recap: prosecution ethics, presidential interference
• 24:17 – Clancy (Patrick/Lindsey) case: courtroom drama, conspiracy theories, legal insanity
• 38:42 – Personal story: Anti-SLAPP, revenge porn suits, tech and evolving law
• 46:38 – Wrap-up, show/year-in-review, gratitude to listeners

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Tone & Style

Throughout, Mark and Matt's style is deeply personal—equal parts legal masterclass and emotional conversation, shot through with humor (“If you had been a prosecutor 400 years ago ...”). Both are humble about not having all the answers (especially across jurisdictions) and share a clear vision about prosecutorial ethics, skepticism about viral conspiracies, and a belief in “right over politics.”

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For Listeners Who Haven't Heard the Episode

This episode is invaluable for those interested in the intersections of true crime, mental health, evolving law, and the social media era. You’ll hear seasoned insiders dissect nuances overlooked in mainstream coverage, with no shortage of wisdom—and no tolerance for viral nonsense.

Skip the ads, and listen for the depth.

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Transcript

[Morgan Stewart]

Hey everyone, it's me, Morgan Stewart and I have a new podcast called the Morgan Stewart Show. Join me each week as I talk about pop culture, fashion, my personal life and just a warning, I'm gonna be giving my opinion on everything. I'll also have some really fun guests to join in on the fun. The Morgan Stewart show is out now. Listen and follow wherever you get your podcasts or watch full video on YouTube.

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[Mark Yergos]

Welcome to in the well, our latest episode. I'm Mark Yergos. I've got my friend and actually I'm kind of living his life. I'm in Orange county next to the beach. Matt Murphy, Orange county, former Orange county homicide and sex crimes prosecutor extraordinaire now has finally come over and seen the light and come over to the defense side to defend all the falsely accused. Matt, how are you and where are you?

[Matt Murphy]

I'm in Amagansett, New York right now, not far from the beach. It is not as I say, it's not pipeline here but, but surf is just good enough to get in the water. So having, having a good time home in a week.

[Mark Yergos]

Well, I love it and I was thinking of you this morning as I was out on the pier watching various people in various stages of their surfing morning and thought about you and, and, and miss talking to you. You know one of the stories that is just so troubled people this week and I wanted to get your take on it obviously was this kind of what I think they call it moderator malfunction which was live streaming of Paris Hilton's apparently what looks like a suicide attempt. It was in the middle of

[Stephen Dubner]

a

[Mark Yergos]

break I think for psychological psychiatric break for lack of a better term and raised all kinds of questions I guess about what they were doing in order to try to stop that and obviously like a slow speed car wreck, people tuned in and it was, was awful to watch I guess for lack of a better term. I don't know if you saw this.

[Matt Murphy]

Yeah, I saw it. The, the video is still available on x, I think YouTube shut it down. And this is one of those things where something horrible happens on live stream and he. I, in trying to find it on X, I found some, some Christian site, Mark, that was calling it a demonic possession. It was apparently so bad. And he did it via cutting. And, you know, it made me think about, you know, June is Men's Mental Health Month, and it's also Pride Month. And all the corporations and everybody, you know, they celebrate Pride Month. And we get. It seems like that's where a lot of the, A lot of our attention goes. The parties and the parades and the fun and everybody sort of forgets about the men's mental health part. And male suicide is something that people don't talk about enough. And this is a guy that, you know, he's, he's got a lot of followers, he has a lot of support. And yeah, it's just absolutely tragic. And then there's been some criticism too, in apparently the way that it was handled. And they. Apparently there have been accusations of a delay. They're trying to get mental health counselors there. And it just seems like kind of a big mess. But it made me think of, I'm sure, you know, a lot of people, Mark. Like, I have friends of mine. I, you know, almost all, almost everybody I know who has suicided and taken their own life has been a man. I had a brother who did it. I had a buddy who did it.

[Mark Yergos]

I was just going to say college. My roommate in college, not when I was rooming with him, but just close thereafter. Took his own life in kind of a crazy way. And there's been. I've represented families of people who have taken their life. I, I think of me as St. John's son represented him. And I think about the Carradine family. And I mean, there's a. It's just, it cuts across. I mean, it's one of the things about mental health. It cuts across every kind of demographic that you would want. It's an issue that plagues everyone. It's kind of why I've never understood the kind of backlash towards mental health defenses. Because if you understand that it hits every family or one degree of separation or somebody you know, or somebody you admire. It's, it's, It's a nettlesome kind of a issue.

[Matt Murphy]

Yeah, it really is. And it's. I, you know, the statistics. I was, I wanted to pull them up. I haven't, I didn't get a chance to do it before we started. But they are, they're shocking how many, how many men it's something like one suicide every minute. It's. Yeah. And this is one of those things. It's like he's a famous guy, celebrity. You know, I saw a lot of crossover on these mark with. Sometimes when people take their own lives, it's very difficult for their families to accept it. And for the poor moms or dads that just can't believe that their son would do it, they a lot of times find refuge in the idea that it's foul play. And I can't tell you how many of those investigations that I got involved with over the years because of the. The poor parents. It's almost like they were desperately hoping that somebody else had done it so they wouldn't have to. So they wouldn't have to deal with it. And I told you about that case where I had to dismiss a murder charge once because it was a young woman who got choked out by her fiance. And he was a choker. He'd done it to multiple other women and they got in a big argument. Neighbors heard it. He really did choke her. There's marks on her neck, bruised strap muscles, petechial hemorrhaging, all the classic signs of a strangulation death. But she came to, went up and swallowed every sleeping pill in the world that night. And I personally had to break it to her mom. And it's just, man, it is so tough, especially on the family. So hopefully he makes.

[Mark Yergos]

Well, you know, it's interesting. Not one, not two, but three straight LA county sheriffs have told me. And I remember the first one was Lee Baca and then Jim McDonald said the same thing. He's now at LAPD, but that they run the largest mental health facility in the world, AKA Louisiana County Jail. And you know, we always think of Twin Towers as being where they house all the mental health. And it's really kind of a misleading because the mental health connection to the criminal justice system, as you know, is overwhelming. And then when you factor in the kind of, I love the term self medication or substance abuse and which came first, you know, chicken or the egg? You can sit in a courtroom as you have, and I have a zillion times and I have actually mentally played the game. How many of these cases that get called are mental health or substance abuse related? And it's almost invariably 95% of the

[Matt Murphy]

cases run through the system at least, right? At least.

[Mark Yergos]

Yeah.

[Matt Murphy]

And especially man, downtown LA, I think the official number of homeless people is 60,000, but it's way higher than that. And that's like exactly that's a joke of a number.

[Mark Yergos]

We would, that would be aspirational, I tell you, at this point. Right?

[Matt Murphy]

Yeah, I mean it's just miles and miles and they're all. And like you said, chicken or egg. I think, I think a huge percentage of them are, are addicts that have kind of drugged themselves into mental illness. But you know, that's another thing like for the empathetic among us that really want to help the defund the police crowd cuts directly from the mental health they're receiving in the jail. Right. Nobody really thinks about that. But I hope Perez Hilton and this is one of those things that should cross all political divides. And like you said, it's universal. It crosses all racial, all socioeconomic lines. And hopefully he makes a speedy recovery. There are those like Kurt Cobain who will attempt multiple times before they finally do it. Right. And hopefully he gets the help. Price Holden gets the help that he needs.

[Mark Yergos]

Yeah, I got it. What's that now? There's a couple of cases going on. What I knew been commenting left and right. What's the, what's the case of the week for you this week?

[Matt Murphy]

Well, there's, there's a couple of really interesting ones. That one that we talked about in Florida with the Mormon woman that got the hitman that the, that is, that is interesting to me. That's with your buddy Jose Bias Joseph and that thing. The judge came in and made kind of a limited ruling concerning how much cell phone access the defense could have to the widow's phone. And that is still a really interesting issue to me because you're talking about victims privacy rights versus a defendant's right to gain all meaningful discovery. And the, the DA made I think a really good call on that. They came off the death penalty. And for those who don't know, I sat on the special search committee in Orange county for 15 years. We sought the death penalty in less, less than 4% of the cases that qualified for it. And I thought that was a really good ruling by her. If you recall. Your thought was, well, hey, in a death penalty case, the defense should be able to access the caution should be, should be given on the side of the defendant. If you're talking about potential execution. But now they've taken that from the table, which is really interesting on that. The privacy versus defendants rights. I think that slides the ruler over a little bit. I think in my opinion favoring more of the privacy side since she's not looking at the death penalty and she is probably looking at a potential parole hearing one day. I think it changes the equation a little bit. So that thing is still ongoing. There are so many interesting cases right now. Mark, I think the coburger thing that's happening, we've both talked about that. I've seen some of your commentary on it with him. And we talked about it last week, too, that attempt to withdraw his plea. I think that we'd have a better chance flying to Vegas tonight.

[Mark Yergos]

Exactly. And. And just spinning, spinning. I mean, he got an appointed lawyer, but I don't even understand. I guess there is a procedural window. And so he filed this proper attempt within the procedural window, but it doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me at all.

[Stephen Dubner]

Hey there, it's Stephen Dubner, host of Freakonomics Radio. And we have just made a new show, a TV talk show. It's called Better in Person. We have the kind of guests you don't see on every other show, and we have the kind of conversations you don't hear anywhere back.

[Matt Murphy]

I'm like, yes, chef. Be one with the pork.

[Mark Yergos]

You have the opportunity to make this little corner of the world into your ideal world, your dream world.

[Stephen Dubner]

You can watch Better in Person on the Freakonomics YouTube channel. You'll find a new episode there every week.

[Mark Yergos]

This is how a conversation works.

[DSW Advertiser]

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[Mark Yergos]

I really don't quite understand it. Then I'll tell you another one that I don't understand this case at all. You know, my friend Janine Pierro Piero is the U.S. attorney in charge of D.C. so Senate confirmed, longtime friend of the president. And she. There's nobody who's going to say that she's soft on crime. I mean, I've known Jeanine since Westchester County DA since being a judge since, you know, frankly, she had some with involving her husband, had personal issues there and everything else. I've watched the entire. And a spectacular TV career. I mean, making, you know, kind of seven figures, although she punched me for pointing that out. And then she indicts this gentleman, former Olympian, I believe, David Hearn for the vandalism of the reflecting pool and the president. The reflecting pool was kind of a pet project next to the ballroom by the president. And then apparently the. If you believe what's being reported, she gets after the indictment or the filing of the charges, she then gets information. And I don't know if it was Norm Eisen, who was the lawyer for David, or part of his team, but she gets information. And it's apparent that Doug Burgum, who is in the Cabinet, and Secretary of the Interior, who presumably has the jurisdiction the reflecting pool. And it looks like it's contractor air. And so she does what I think. Don't let me put words in your mouth, but every good prosecutor should do when faced with this. Oh, this. Well, it doesn't look like vandalism. I was misled. I no longer have confidence. I'm dismissing the action. And the president went ballistic, saying she was a. Do you see it? She choked. I don't agree with it. I'm not. And they've got her. And some people are so Patty. They've got pictures of her pulling a kind of a cart out of the White House with a box, and they're going, oh, she had to pack up her things. Let me explain something to you. Just because you're the U.S. attorney for D.C. does not mean you're housed in the White House. I mean, she's housed at the D.C. a USA or United States Attorney's Office. And my guess is that when she's rolling a box up, she's probably showing the president, don't blame me. Take a look at what you were misled about. Garbage in, garbage out, when it comes from information. And now somebody is talking about or may have already done it, they're going to report to the disciplinary authorities. And I said, have you lost your mind? She does the right thing. She dismisses the case after she indicts it. And now you're going to want to discipline her for doing the right thing. And I, my point was, you know, if you're Trump or if you're counseling Trump, I'd say this is what you wanted Fannie Willis to do. This is what you wanted, what's his name, the DA in Manhattan to do when they were coming after you. Alvin Bragg, when you realize your cases for shit, you stand up and you do the right thing. Am I wrong?

[Matt Murphy]

No, you're. Look, you've been doing this for a long time, and a lot of people, a lot of the viewers, it's important to understand the job of a prosecutor is you have to keep an open mind. And you must. It's always to do the right thing. And you got to believe to the absolute letter of the charge. You got to believe in absolutely every enhancement. And you got to. You have to subjectively be 100%. And if you entertain a doubt, it is your sacrosanct ethical obligation. Damn the torpedoes, damn the criticism, damn all that stuff. You have to go into court and dump it. And, you know, that's the job of a good prosecutor. And we talk about this all the time, Mark, and we're gonna keep talking about it. Prosecutorial power and politics are a very, very toxic cocktail. And look, in Trump's defense on this, our country is so crazy right now that it's like we've gotten to a point that people who hate Trump, everything he does that is good. It's like I had friends when Barack Obama was president that I'll leave their names out, but plenty of things that he did, he really believed it was best for United States. We can disagree, but these guys were like, I'm against anything that he does. Anything that Barack Obama does, I'm against. And at what point does that just become being against what's right for America, Right? Same thing right now with Trump. Trump does some good stuff, guys, and you can hate him, but when it comes down to a project like the reflective pool, I mean, we've seen it. It's like, Trump does it. There are people who would want to destroy it. And I can understand why that would get his backup. But at the end of the day, all of that stuff has to be nonexistent in the mind of a prosecutor with a criminal case. And Mark, how many times we've seen it over and over again where, like, you brought up the example of Fannie Willis, man, that. That case blew up. That was a bullshit case. Sorry. And by the way, those, for those

[Mark Yergos]

in the comments who land based defense or defense lawyers, remember that case blew up. Fonny Willis blew up. Not because of the prosecutor or somebody in the prosecutor's office. The defense lawyer, our comrade here, Ashley Merchant, doing an incredible job. I mean, an incredible job.

[Matt Murphy]

Credible. That's. And that. That was. That is. That is the legal profession at its finest with Ashley Merchant smoking Nathan Wade on the stand. And I mean, it's one of the greatest moments of American jurisprudence. Were you ever in a cabin with Fanny Lewis? And it's like that they play that Jeopardy. Theme, ding, ding, ding, ding. As he sits there for like a minute and he's like, ever that was he was a real estate lawyer or something like that. He had no business doing that.

[Mark Yergos]

Mark.

[Matt Murphy]

They indebted. I think it was 28 co defendants.

[Mark Yergos]

Have you ever seen anything like that? No. And you know, I have. What's so funny? She's gonna slap me. Or maybe her husband will. When we were in Vegas, I was chatting late, late at night, early morning hours with her and her husband, and her husband is her partner. And. And I was telling Ashley, I just became a fanboy over watching her and what she was doing because she was just a machine. She was. Exactly. By the way, if you're ever accused of a crime, do you want the potted plant, or do you want an Ashley Merchant who's there just like a laser, and she was like a laser focus. But the backstory was she kept going to her husband, who's the partner, saying, I got to blow this open. He kept saying, no, you need more. I got a blows. And she would keep coming back, keep coming back. And he would keep saying, no, you need more. And finally, when she rolled it out, kudos to the both of them. What a great partnership. Because when she rolled it out, I mean, there was no coming back from that. I mean, talk about a reversal of fortune on a criminal case. It was. I mean, you could exhibit a of what a good defense lawyer should, should do, could do, and did do.

[Matt Murphy]

Yep. That her work on that in that cross examination knocked down 28 bowling pins.

[Mark Yergos]

And.

[Matt Murphy]

And look, in my opinion, love them, hate them. Politics aside here, she really did treat Donald Trump unfairly in that. And I mean, and it was like. And we have to be able to separate our politics from what's. From fairness. I mean, and that is the job of a prosecutor. And you're right, it's exactly what all of those co defendants in that totally unfair case would have wanted. A prosecutor to do the right thing. But, man, people dig their heels in and they fight. And look, I think that that's an emotional thing because there are so many people out there who would vandalize the reflective pool because Trump had something to do with it, or Trump wanted to do it. With so many crazies out there, I understand the emotional reaction. I hope that the president thinks better of that, because she really is. It's exactly what the prosecutor is supposed to do.

[Mark Yergos]

It's a pox on both their houses. He should not be criticizing her because he has had kind of lawfare coming at him, and so he should not falter for this. And I also, to those on my side of the aisle, I Always say my ideological or political side of the aisle. Shame on you for cheering. Disciplinary action of her. I mean, I had told somebody the other day, I mean, Janine, I would defend Jeanine for free on the disciplinary side because it's an outrage that they would consider that.

[Matt Murphy]

And I would help you. And in a right and wrong, pure fairness sort of way. We have to get away from all these insane politics, guys. We just do. That's exactly what a prosecutor is supposed to do.

[Mark Yergos]

Good for her.

[Matt Murphy]

I could not agree more. So next, Mark and I are going to discuss the Lindsey Clancy trial. Please stay tuned.

[Stephen Dubner]

Hey there. It's Stephen Dubner, host of Freakonomics Radio, and we have just made a new show, a TV talk show. It's called Better in Person. We have the kind of guests you don't see on every other show, and we have the kind of conversations you don't hear anywhere back.

[Matt Murphy]

I'm like, yes, chef. Be home with the pork.

[Mark Yergos]

You have the opportunity to make this little corner of the world into your ideal world, your dream world.

[Stephen Dubner]

You can watch better in person on the Freakonomics YouTube channel. You'll find a new episode there every week.

[Mark Yergos]

This is how a conversation works.

[DSW Advertiser]

You know that thing where you get an amazing pair of shoes at a really great price and want to tell everyone about it? Yeah. So do we here at Designer Shoe Warehouse. We'll give you something to brag about, like the latest styles from brands you love or the trends everyone's obsessing over or shoes that make you feel like, well, you. So go ahead, show off a little. Buying shoes to get you you the prices that get your budget head to your DSW store or dsw.com today. DSW. Let us surprise you.

[Matt Murphy]

Welcome back to in the well, Mark, you and I have both been following this Lindsey Clancy case out of Massachusetts. This is the woman who's been charged with murdering her three kids and then she jumped out of the window and apparently is now paralyzed. We've had a lot of drama in court. Her husband came out and testified on her behalf. He's publicly forgiven her. And I don't know if you've seen this, Mark, but there is a new conspiracy online that. Which is absolutely frickin bonkers that he's

[Mark Yergos]

the actual killer and he's wearing different shoes.

[Matt Murphy]

But what are you taking away on that?

[Mark Yergos]

Okay, so I, I so wanted to hear your take on this because you have so little patience for conspiracy theories when it comes to this, right? I mean, is there. As soon as I saw this online, I Said Murphy's head must be exploding. So take it away, I'll let you frame it.

[Matt Murphy]

No, it is, it is. It's like, and you're right, Mark, it drives me insane. And you know why? Because I spent 26 years trying to, to like to filter the loon out from my jury, right? Like that's the juror that, that hangs the jury, the one that has to be smarter than everybody else. The one that's not listening, that they know better. Hey, their shoes are different. That must mean. And they're off to cuckoo land. And. But now in the modern era, it's kind of fascinating. It's a fascinating time we live in because it seems like every high profile case there has to be some cuckoo conspiracy theory. And it's just, I mean it is, you know, if it was one or two people would be one thing. But it seems like so many people jump onto this stuff. So this is, this is a guy that forgave his wife for, for the strangulation death of his three kids. He is suing the doctors and the medical professionals that according to his lawsuit overprescribed a bunch of medication to her. She had Prozac, she was suffering from postpartum. And you know, he didn't make a universal nation of friends by coming out and doing that especially. It's such an emotional thing. You've got, you know, the murder of three kids. I totally get it. So there's going to be people that aren't going to like him in the first place, but that has apparently now gone down the rabbit hole into, hey, I bet he's the real killer. He was having an affair. I've heard that. I have absolutely nothing to back that up. Truth wise, he married a woman. He's already remarried. So he was the one that benefited. Now he's going to win this big lawsuit. He must have done it and set his wife up. And guys, there is zero rational evidence that I have seen that actually supports that in any way. And Mark, it is, it's like wildfire. Every time on my reel I keep getting new, new little snippets sent to me by magic AI because they think I'm buying into it, I guess.

[Mark Yergos]

Well, it's because, you know why? In the, in the way that they, the AI understands us, they know you watch some of these because your head wants to explode and so it thinks that somehow you're interested in it. And it reminds me, I think, I don't remember if I told you this on an episode of in the well or when we were talking often. But my father used to tell this story when he was a DA and he was in Lancaster at one point Antelope Valley. And he's prosecuting a guy. And the guy, the defendant or the accused got on the stand and testified that he did what he did because there was a transistor that was implanted in his cavity and that beamed him orders as to what he had to do. And so Pops gave an impassioned closing argument as the prosecutor did the reply. First question from the jury is they wanted a transistor radio so they could see test whether or not the defendant had a transistor in his mouth. And he's, you know, that's just. Fast forward now to there's electrodes implanted in my frame, my brain that are affected by low flying aircraft. Fast forward to now. It's Starlink is circling over me and that has affected me. I. It's a, it's a mental. Speaking of the mental health. It's a function of the mental, mental health relationship to the criminal justice system. And unfortunately it's exacerbated by the ability to find others and feed on this stuff.

[Matt Murphy]

Yeah, look, it's. And this is a really interesting case that raises some very serious issues. So for the viewer, there's a. Most states use what's known as the McNaughton Rule, which essentially that's what California has. So to establish criminal insanity, first you have the penalty phase where you prove that the person did it. Then you go into what's called the sanity phase. And if they understand and recognize the nature and quality of their acts, then they're legally saints. So the, the example we always give, and I know Mark has heard 10,000 times, you got an angel and a devil that, that, you know that old trope, one is telling you to do something bad, one is telling you to do something good. And if you, if the devil pops up on your shoulder and says, go stab that person over there or I'm going to blow up the world, and they go do it, that means from their mental illness, they have committed an act, but they still know it's a human being. If the same scenario is, hey, that's not a person, that's an alien. Go stab the alien or I'm going to blow up the world, then they can be said to not understand the nature and quality of their acts and they can be found legally insane. Massachusetts uses a stricter standard for the, for the prosecution, and they have. The burden never shifts to the defense. In California, it shifts to the defense, essentially to prove insanity. Right. In Massachusetts, the prosecution bears the burden the entire time. And the language is different in Massachusetts. And it's like, it's way more squishy and difficult to understand. I'll tell you, Mark, I read it, I'm like, even I don't know what this means. And I've done murder cases with insanity defenses. I couldn't wrap my head around the

[Mark Yergos]

instructions, know it, remind. It's so funny you said that because when I was doing the research on it as well, because I was trying to understand she's very ably defended. And I was wondering, do they keep it squishy? So it's kind of like what the U.S. supreme Court many years ago did with obscenity. I know it when I see it. And they want to just keep it squishy or flexible or fluid enough so that it gives jurors the ability to. To basically kind of channel their conscience, which is, do we want this person punished or do we want this person to get help? Or do we want, you know. Yeah, I mean, there's a. A lot of the law operates that way, if you will. A lot of the law basically says or gives you permission or gives the jurors permission to kind of do what they think intuitively they want to do, which is justice.

[Matt Murphy]

Yeah, it's an interesting thing too, because it's not bifurcated in Massachusetts. Right. So, you know, which is that you

[Mark Yergos]

should explain that because that's a key

[Matt Murphy]

distinction, I think it really is. So basically, in a bifurcated system for the viewer, you've got. You have the jury on the same case. So if it's a murder with a mental defense, the jury goes back, they get all the same instructions, they deliberate and they'll return a verdict of guilty and, you know, to get it to the penalty phase. So I think, Mark, that for a lot of jurors, that kind of slakes the, you know, their sense of justice a little bit. They've done something, they know now the person's going to be held accountable in some form. And I think that frees them up a little bit more to be a little more open minded in the, in the sanity phase. In the sanity phase, they're going to hear expert testimony. They're going to hear people come in and they're going to. I think that helps the defense. A lot of times in Massachusetts, it appears it is one thing, and I don't know if the jury is going to understand what happens if they find her not legally responsible due to these mental health problems because, and to be honest, Mark, I'm not even sure how it works in Massachusetts. I've done a little bit of light research on this, trying to figure out what does the court do if it's a one shot conviction or acquittal, you know, and I, I don't, I think the court loses jurisdiction over it and she might get out. But I'm no expert on Massachusetts. I don't know. I just know they have a different system and they have different language and I don't know, man. The, the jury apparently did a jury viewing of the house. They, they went into the basement where at least I think two of the children were, were found, maybe all three before she jumped out the window. I, you know, I don't know how to read this one, Mark. I, if, if I had to listen.

[Mark Yergos]

By the way, did you listen to that 911 tape?

[Matt Murphy]

It's horrifying.

[Mark Yergos]

It's horrifying. Haunting. If this, for all you conspiracy theorists, the only way I think that you could go down that rabbit hole is if you had not listened to that 91 1, because that 911 is haunting, horrifying, horrific, any H word you can think of. I just, I, I, Especially when you know what's coming kind of, and you can't, you're not ready for it, even though you know how it ends.

[Matt Murphy]

Yeah. I mean, imagine that you walk into your house and you find your three beautiful kids. And, and according to his testimony, she, she'd been having all these mental health issues. There was a journal that was introduced, her diary basically talking about some of her intrusive thoughts. And the prosecution's position is this is a rational woman who is undergoing mental health problems kind of going down that mental illness does not equal legal insanity argument. The defense, on the other hand, is saying, look, this is a good woman who's struggling with these issues. And so they're each arguing things from her diary. But according to him, she had the best day. She'd had almost like a, you know, like the going back to the suicide. A lot of times people, once they've made the decision they're going to do it, they're, they seem like they're doing better for a day or two before they actually, you know, end their own lives. And this almost sounds like one of those things. She took one of the, one of the kids to the doctor earlier that day and, and all of her text messages to him seemed like she was, like his wife was coming back. She sends him out to pick up Food. And he comes into the worst scene imaginable. And that 911 call is. Was horrifying.

[Stephen Dubner]

It.

[Matt Murphy]

It really, it disturbed me and you and I, Mark, I don't know how many thousands. This is one of the worst.

[Mark Yergos]

Yeah, it really is. It's in the. So like I say, if this guy is an actor, it's.

[Matt Murphy]

Yeah. So what's, what's your prediction? Where do you think it goes based on.

[Mark Yergos]

I just think they're gonna. I, I think that when you've got the father, him up there testifying, what interest is this jury vindicating? And more importantly, what is the prosecutor doing? You know me, I always go to slam the prosecutor. But what does the prosecutor think? They're. Whose interests are. They're vindicating. This is somebody who obviously needed help, didn't get help, and. And arguably was missed. And was missed calibrated, so to speak, on the, the dosage, whether it was the pharma, the pharmacological or the, the practitioner, who knows? But what a tragedy. I, I just. It.

[Matt Murphy]

I'll tell you another. Yeah, sorry, go ahead.

[Mark Yergos]

Now, I'm just gonna say it's sickening. It. And we see this periodically. It's one of the reasons these cases get traction because it is a car wreck that you can't take their eyes away from. I remember Andrea Yates. I remember the. I think it was Susan Smith. Through them, when they happen, they're burned in your mind because it's just, it's. It undercuts. Civilized the community when a mother takes her children's lives.

[Matt Murphy]

Yeah. And there's. And there's a whole range. Right. We're talking about human beings. So some people really legitimately are suffering from that postpartum. We had one in Orange county that Jeff Robinson, who I know, you know, he dismissed and he. Because he, he researched it. He did a genie Pirro. He believed that she was reacting so badly to the Prozac. That was a Prozac thing, that they dealt it. Very, very rare. I think another thing that's going to help her on this and just finish that thought. Some people, Susan Smith, I don't think there's a redeeming quality or feature in her soul, if she even has one. So there are some truly evil women that kill their kids because they're sick of them or inconvenienced or whatever. So it's important again to treat everybody as an individual. Everybody's a statistic one. But I think another thing that's probably going to help her, Mark, is that she's in a wheelchair. And I think some of the jurors are going to look at that and go, okay, well she has paid a hell of a penalty already. I don't know what her prognosis is, but I think that that also is something that they will feel like there's been some justice done already in her failed suicide attempt where she, you know, jumped off out of a second story window, which is a bad way for anybody to kill themselves because you might just wind up paralyzed like her. So this will be interesting to watch. But I think you're right. It's incredibly powerful that, that the, that the father, the, essentially the, the victim,

[Mark Yergos]

now he's the victim.

[Matt Murphy]

He's more of a victim, only surviving one. But I, I don't know. Yeah, I, I, it's going to be interesting to see it. Like you said, it's a train wreck and a, a, it is, it's horrible no matter what happens. And I just, those poor kids, it's just, it's awful.

[Mark Yergos]

Well, coming up next, we're gonna do Tales of In the well. Although this week I may have a more personal one. So stay tuned.

[Stephen Dubner]

Hey there, it's Stephen Dubner, host of Freakonomics Radio. And we have just made a new show, a TV talk show. It's called Better in Person. We have the kind of guests you don't see on every other show and we have the kind of conversations you don't hear anywhere back.

[Matt Murphy]

I'm like, yes, chef. Be one with the pork.

[Mark Yergos]

You have the opportunity to make this little corner of the world into your ideal world, your dream world.

[Stephen Dubner]

You can watch Better in Person on the Freakonomics YouTube channel. You'll find a new episode there every week.

[Mark Yergos]

This is how a conversation works.

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[Mark Yergos]

Okay, so the tale this week I'm going to talk about something personal. To me, we have a case map. Brian Friedman and I actually are co counsel and we represent Rachel Levis who is suing Tom Sandoval and Ariana Maddox. And for those who don't know from Vanderpump rules and reality tv. Sandoval had apparently taped her having an affair and then somehow Maddox got a hold of it somehow and I'm using it loosely, sent it to her and it caused quite a storm. They did an anti slap. Now this is interesting to me because we won at the trial court and we just won yesterday at the court of appeal in a 2 to 1 opinion. And who knows, it may, it may get appealed again. But I've had this instance now more than once where people, and I don't get it frankly, where you commit a crime and then when you get sued for committing the crime, in this case revenge porn. In another case that I have involving the so called October surprise involving the mayoral election that put Karen Bass in the office where we represent Kevin De Leon, there was an illegal wiretapping and then you file an anti slap against the person who is the victim. And it is mind boggling to me. And I bring this up interestingly because I just talked to somebody who told me and I didn't know this and I wanted to throw it out to you. Do you know that in Arizona I'm told now that the anti slap statute for those who don't know, it's basically where you call a timeout and you say hey Judge, you can't proceed at least in California on this civil case because it implicates public policy and the right to free speech. But in Arizona, I'm told they've expanded it now to criminal cases. Wouldn't you love to have an anti slap statute in California that applied to criminal prosecutions? But apparently that's the case. So have you ever thought about that or dealt with that?

[Matt Murphy]

I've never even, I've never even considered that, Mark. But that is, that is a fascinating concept, right? And, and right now it is such a hot topic, right, with social media because people, people hit the airwaves and certainly some speech is protected and some speech is not protected. And it is, you know, also cancel culture comes into that when it comes to damages too, doesn't it Mark? Like an allegation that somebody said something terrible can have huge career implications and the damages can be through the roof. So it's, you know, we talked about this a little bit, not to lose the viewer and the technical stuff, but there's a thing called Cal ECBA which now California for what, Mark, probably the last 10 years requires a search warrant to get into people's cell phones. So we are in a. It's a weird blend between our personal privacy, especially text messages, you know, like my. I've talked about my fantasy football league, but that. And making defamatory statements. And this is a, you know, the law is evolving all the time to kind of keep up with technology, and it seems like the law is always a few steps behind.

[Mark Yergos]

Yeah.

[Matt Murphy]

So, yeah, that's a really interesting concept.

[Mark Yergos]

It's so interesting that you've done the through line there because there's a recent SCOTUS case in the last month that's talked about that. There is the Arizona statute that got expanded and I think it was out of the 2024 election. And then you've got this published opinion as of yester morning, and you've got another one that is out of our office, in fact, that has also pending an opinion was already orally argued. And I think it's about time that this idea kind of. This, what I think is kind of antiquated idea that you can't kind of set some bright lines on this, that you can just kind of say anything you want. This. The, the. There's a difference to my mind between being an absolutist when it comes to free speech and then being able to do revenge porn. You know, I mean, there. I don't, I don't think that you can wrap yourself too closely in that distinction.

[Matt Murphy]

Yeah. And for the. Any guy who would post revenge porn, you know, it's. Especially in the modern era, you're gonna get sued. You're like, you're gonna get arrested. There's even a federal statute now, Mark, where the feds can go after you. Like, you know. Yeah, it's. You know, there's so much to it. There's like the 200,000 years of like, of romantic partners hating each other. Right. And then you've got modern technology to boot. And, yeah, the law, it's going to be really interesting to see how it develops, I think.

[Mark Yergos]

Well, as I've often said about you, Matt, if you had been a Prosecutor, you know, 400 years ago, you would have prosecuted Romeo for being a stalker. Juliet probably would have. Yes. Well, and I want to thank the viewers. I mean, Matt has mentioned it before, but it's the. This show has exceeded, I think, not only our expectations. We had a very low bar, but I think everybody else's. And it's because you guys listen and want to hear us tell stories that, by the way, if there wasn't Natasha here orchestrating this, we'd be telling the stories anyway. So thank you for that. That's right. Thank You, Matt, for entertaining me as well. I appreciate it.

[Matt Murphy]

Okay, guys, thank you again to my co host, Mark Yergos. And thank you all for tuning in to in the. Well, this is the. The anniversary of MK True Crime. One year. It's been remarkably successful. I just saw mark 2.4 million downloads of our friends on the crew with Jonna and Mark and Dave and all the rest of the people that we got teamed up with for this.

[Mark Yergos]

Right, Ashley and the whole crew.

[Matt Murphy]

Yeah. And what a blast it has been. It is for the viewer. We got to go to Vegas for Crimecon and we all got to hang out and what an awesome group of people. So. But mostly, thank you all for supporting us. It's a. It's a ton of fun. Our numbers keep growing and. Yeah, and feel free to send us comments.

[Mark Yergos]

We.

[Matt Murphy]

Believe it or not, Mark and I read the comments.

[Mark Yergos]

We read the comments.

[Matt Murphy]

I don't try to be nice because you'll hurt our feelings if you're not. But I don't mind if you're.

[Mark Yergos]

If you're sarcastic and snarky and clever. I got it. If you're just kind of like, oh my God, you know, he defended this guy or that guy. Anybody can do that. Come on, step up your game.

[Matt Murphy]

Keep it. But please keep it kind. Mark got thicker skin than me. I hope everybody has an awesome weekend and we will see everybody next week.

[Morgan Stewart]

Hey, everyone, it's me, Morgan Stewart, and I have a new podcast called the Morgan Stewart Show. Join me each week as I talk about pop culture, fashion, my personal life, and just a warning, I'm gonna be giving my opinion on everything. I'll also have some really fun, fun guests to join in on the fun. The Morgan Stewart show is out now. Listen and follow wherever you get your podcasts or watch full video on YouTube.

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