Quadruple Murder Case Proceeds to Trial, Fighting Over Mangione’s Fate, Ellen Greenberg Revisited

Summary

MK True Crime – Episode Summary

Episode Title: Quadruple Murder Case Proceeds to Trial, Fighting Over Mangione’s Fate, Ellen Greenberg Revisited
Host: Jonna Spilbore (with Arthur Idella & Mark Iglarsch)
Date: September 10, 2025

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Overview

This jam-packed episode of MK True Crime dives into three riveting cases: a Tennessee quadruple murder connected to Austin Drummond, major legal maneuvers in the Luigi Mangione healthcare executive murder, and the stubbornly mysterious and tragic 2011 death of Ellen Greenberg. Jonna, Arthur, and Mark bring their seasoned defense and prosecutorial backgrounds to unpack the heartache, legal ambiguity, and societal failures underpinning each story, offering expert legal breakdowns, personal takes, and plenty of hard questions.

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Main Topics and Key Insights

1. Austin Drummond – Quadruple Murder Case

Case Background

• Listener requests prompted deep dive into the case.
• Drummond is accused of murdering four people he considered family in Tennessee.
• Remarkably, a seven-month-old baby at the scene was spared.
• After the crimes, Drummond went on the run but was quickly apprehended; claimed to be an FBI informant.

Legal Intrigue and Defense Strategy

• Drummond’s history: repeated incarcerations, labeled a dangerous offender, incidents of violence even while incarcerated.
• Released after a controversial granting of bond, sparking panel outrage over judicial decisions.
• Defense likely to focus on lack of direct evidence tying Drummond to the murders: "Yes, I was here, but I wasn’t the one who did it." (Arthur Idella, 06:23)
• Cell phone evidence and witness statements will be crucial.

Reactions to Judicial System Flaws

• Panel agrees Drummond’s release was a catastrophic system failure:
  • "How is this guy not a danger to the community?... That blood’s on you, Judge." (Mark Iglarsch, 09:14)
• Discussion on balancing mental illness and evil: where does society draw the line for preemptive restraint?

Baby & Family Dynamics

• Drummond’s ex-girlfriend (and mother of his child) was once a corrections officer—likely constitutes a crime.
• Intricate, volatile family relationships, including allegations of gang involvement and protection orders.

Motive, Evidence, and Death Penalty Debate

• No clear motive presented—defense will stress this to generate reasonable doubt.
• Death penalty is being sought; panel largely supports it given Drummond’s history and the case’s brutality.
  • "If this does not qualify for a death penalty case, I’m not exactly sure what would." (Arthur Idella, 16:57)
• Counterpoint: execution as ineffective deterrent, plus prolonged appeals hurt families’ search for closure.

Notable Quotes & Timestamps

• "I'm innocent of what I'm charged with. Yes, sir. I'm not an innocent man, but I'm not guilty of what they charged me with.” – Austin Drummond, [19:57]
• "Four people are dead because of it." – Mark Iglarsch, [11:04]
• "He did have a prelim... had some interesting things to say." – Jonna Spilbore, [13:35]

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2. Luigi Mangione – Murder of Healthcare Executive

Case Status

• Mangione accused of executing United Healthcare’s president on camera in midtown Manhattan.
• He was caught with both the weapon and a manifesto; evidence against him is overwhelming.

State vs. Federal Prosecution Battle

• Jurisdictional struggle between state (Manhattan DA’s office) and federal prosecutors.
• Debate over terrorism charges: is this a murder or an act meant to intimidate a broader community?
  • "I don’t think that was the legislative intent... I think he was sending a message." (Arthur Idella, 33:04)

Death Penalty and Sentencing Predictions

• Potential for the death penalty raised, but panel doubts viability due to Mangione’s lack of prior convictions and the specific circumstances (as opposed to serial or mass murders).
• Most likely outcome: guilty verdict, life imprisonment.
• Surprised at level of public support for Mangione; "Free Luigi" protests noted outside the courthouse.

Notable Quotes & Timestamps

• "This is a doozy for a defense attorney to get out of." – Arthur Idella, [27:45]
• "When you execute someone the manner in which he did... that is a life sentence." – Mark Iglarsch, [29:57]
• "Do you believe that he was committing an act of terrorism?" – Mark Iglarsch, [32:42]

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3. Baby Emmanuel Harrow – Murder Without a Body

Case Overview

• Prosecutors are pressing murder charges against baby Emmanuel Harrow’s parents, despite the absence of the child’s body.
• Both defendants have criminal histories; father previously committed severe child abuse.

Legal Challenges and Precedents

• Panel agrees conviction is possible without a body if circumstantial evidence is strong—e.g. statements, prior conduct.
• Agitation over authorities consulting (and believing) child welfare “experts” previously labeling defendant a low re-offense risk.

Notable Quotes & Timestamps

• "Remember the bullshit story the mother told... that somebody came up, knocked her out in a parking lot and took the baby." – Jonna Spilbore, [24:00]
• "That school... no credibility, zero." – Mark Iglarsch, [25:47]

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4. Ellen Greenberg – Re-examining a Cold Case

Case Summary

• Ellen Greenberg, Philadelphia teacher, found dead with 20 stab wounds (both front and back), but her death ruled a suicide in 2011.
• Fiancé made bizarre 911 call, suggesting “she fell on a knife.”

Criticism of Police Investigation

• Mark delivers a cutting “clown show” analogy lampooning the original police response and uncritical acceptance of fiancé’s suicide theory.
  • "About 20 law enforcement officers came out and they had difficulty walking to the crime scene because they had super large shoes..." (Mark Iglarsch, 43:42)
• Evidence mishandled; body swiftly cremated; crime scene sanitized.

Pathology and Outrage

• Panel incredulous at pathologist’s ruling: “She has... 10 knives in her chest, 10 in the back of her neck. How is that physically possible?” (Jonna Spilbore, 45:16)
• Greenberg’s parents continue to fight for proper review, refusing to let case be closed.

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Listener Interaction & Closing Arguments

Audience Emails

• Age and Law: Listener Shannon (37) asks if it’s too late to become a lawyer. Panel wholeheartedly encourages late legal careers.
• Upcoming Debates: Renata asks for a Menendez brothers parole debate—teased for next episode.

Notable Quotes

• “...if your heart’s in the right place... please join us!” – Mark Iglarsch, [47:13]

Closing Arguments

Arthur Idella:

• Addresses the misunderstood prevalence of quid pro quo plea deals in the criminal justice system, citing over 94% federal plea rate. [49:32]

Mark Iglarsch:

• Emphasizes the pain of victims’ families—specifically, the sons left behind by Brian Thompson, alleged victim of Mangione. [51:00]

Jonna Spilbore:

• Praises Cardi B for refusing to settle a nuisance lawsuit—advocating for standing up to opportunistic civil claims regardless of fame or power. [51:52]

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “[Death penalty] will take 20, 30 years... so all that time, then what? The family’s counting the years.” – Jonna Spilbore, [17:19]
• “No way [is 37 too old to become a lawyer]. That’s young!” – Mark Iglarsch, [47:13]
• “She didn’t just take the stand. She took a stand.” – Jonna Spilbore, [53:30]

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Tone and Dynamic

• The trio blends gallows humor, frank legal analysis, and clear exasperation at systemic failures—making complex and horrific true crime accessible and urgent.
• Rapid-fire banter and inside-lawyer snipes (including defense of fashion sense!) break up heavier topics, keeping the energy high but respectful of victims and families.

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• Austin Drummond Case & Judicial Misfires: [05:05]–[14:51]
• Death Penalty Debate: [16:07]–[19:33]
• Emmanuel Harrow Baby Case: [21:32]–[25:55]
• Luigi Mangione Trial & Federal/State Battle: [27:35]–[37:23]
• Ellen Greenberg Case Revisited (911 Tape): [41:14]–[45:16]
• Listener Q&A: [46:41]–[49:24]
• Closing Arguments: [49:32]–[54:29]

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Conclusion

This episode encapsulates what MK True Crime does best: dissecting infamous and undercovered cases with deep legal knowledge, compassion for victims, and a healthy skepticism of every official story. Whether you’re a true crime aficionado, a legal geek, or just curious about the American justice system’s failings and successes, this episode is essential listening.

Transcript

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[Jonna Spilbore]

Welcome to MK True Crime. I'm Jonna Spilbore, your host today. I'm a former prosecutor, current criminal defense attorney, and founding attorney of of Jonna Spielber Law. Here's what's on the docket.

[Austin Drummond]

I'm innocent of what I'm charged with. Yes, sir. I'm not an innocent man, but I'm not guilty of what they charged me with.

[Jonna Spilbore]

He's already proven that he's gonna that he's. That he does stuff like this. So don't give him an opportunity to.

[Arthur Idella]

Take somebody else's family, their whole family.

[Jonna Spilbore]

He's a young man and he is being treated like a human ping pong ball between two warring jurisdictions. Here, these federal and state prosecutors are coordinating with one another.

[911 Caller (Ellen Greenberg Scene)]

She fell in a knife. Oh, no. Her knife's sticking out.

[911 Dispatcher (Ellen Greenberg Scene)]

About what?

[911 Caller (Ellen Greenberg Scene)]

There's a night sticking out of her heart.

[911 Dispatcher (Ellen Greenberg Scene)]

Oh, she stans herself.

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[Jonna Spilbore]

Yeah.

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Thank me.

[Jonna Spilbore]

An abandoned baby, a quadruple murder, a week long manhunt, and an ex corrections officer girlfriend. This is the stuff of a Hollywood movie, only it's real life. We're gonna dive into the Austin Drummond case as requested by our listeners. September is a big month for Luigi Mangione with key scheduling and motion decisions happening. We're gonna get you up to speed. And the 2011 case of Ellen Greenberg, a woman whose death was initially ruled a suicide, is back in the spotlight as her parents continue to fight the city of Philadelphia for an independent autopsy review. Wait till you hear why I Am joined today. I am. No, not just joined. I'm honored today to be here with fellow MK True Crime contributors and Kelly Corps OGs. Arthur Idella, criminal defense attorney extraordinaire and managing partner of Idealla, Bartoona and Kamens and second best dressed lawyer in New York. And Mark Iglarsch, criminal defense attorney and team captain of the MK True Crime Pickleball league that I didn't know we had. You can find him at speak to mark.com.

[Arthur Idella]

Could I be the best dressed bald lawyer? I mean, that should be a category. I mean, you guys discriminate all you hairy people.

[Jonna Spilbore]

Speaking of that, Pick your category. Pick your category.

[Mark Iglarsch]

Do I need spectacles to hang out with you too?

[Jonna Spilbore]

You might.

[Mark Iglarsch]

And Jon, what are we doing here? Harry Carey called. He wants his glasses back. What are you doing, Mark?

[Jonna Spilbore]

This is. This is sexy librarian. You don't. You don't see that?

[Mark Iglarsch]

Sorry. No. I'm married 25 years now. I see it. Thank you for pointing that out.

[Arthur Idella]

Listen, you're on a diet. Doesn't mean you can't look at the menu. I mean, you know, John is. She's here for us to all, you know, admire. That's what it's all about.

[Mark Iglarsch]

How's your wife doing, Arthur?

[Jonna Spilbore]

You know what I think we should do, guys?

[Arthur Idella]

She's my law partner. She's just not just my wife. Okay?

[Jonna Spilbore]

It's okay. I'm not here. Pretend I'm not here. Talk amongst yourself.

[Arthur Idella]

Okay. Sorry. Apologies. Okay, we're doing a show now, right?

[Jonna Spilbore]

We are.

[Mark Iglarsch]

Can we talk about dead people? Can we do that?

[Arthur Idella]

Let's talk about tragedies. Right now we got three tragedies. One after another after another. Should be exciting show, folks.

[Jonna Spilbore]

Yeah, we have a lot of dead people to talk about. And the first case we're going to talk about is. Is interesting because our listeners suggested that we dive into this case. And dive in we did. It's a doozy. It's the case of defendant Austin Drummond. Now, Renata and Carolina both brought this case to us. I want to tell you what Carolina, she teed it up for us. Carolina said there was a quadruple murder near me in Tennessee, and a man named Austin Drummond was arrested after he was on the run. There was an infant in a car seat that was left in someone's random yard that is also related to the murder. I don't know what the motive is. I thought this might be an interesting case to study. P.S. i've been loving the show. We love you, Carolina, for saying that. And yes, we are going to dig into the Austin Drummond case. Okay, guys, do you want me to tee it up? Do one of you want to tee it up?

[Arthur Idella]

I refer to you. You're the host.

[Jonna Spilbore]

All right, so Austin Drummond, from what we know, is a guy who appears to have spent most of his adult life in the clink. Okay, for starters, he is alleged to have murdered four people that he considers to be his family. But here's the. I guess the blessing in disguise. There was a seven month old baby at the scene who. Who he thankfully spared. Now, he goes on the run immediately, but he's quickly caught. And the neighbors wanted to chime in. Let's run video one. So here he looks like. I don't know, he looks like he's literally armed for bear. What's he doing? So he goes on the run. He gets quickly caught and claims now that he is an FBI informant. His defense attorney is saying, look, you know, yeah, my guy was at the scene, but you can't put a gun in his hand. Well, what the heck was he carrying? Am I seeing things? What was he carrying in the video we just watched? So he's a little bit of a lunatic thinking, what is that, you guys? Is that a gun? Looks like a gun to me.

[Arthur Idella]

No, his bottom right hand. His bottom right hand that's hanging on right there.

[Jonna Spilbore]

Not a bicycle seat.

[Arthur Idella]

It would appear to be a weapon. But what's his defense attorney supposed to say? Madam Defense Attorney? Yes, that. I mean, we. Look, I had a case very similar. It was. There's no doubt about it that my client was at the scene, but he was at the scene with others. Three others. And the reasonable doubt that I was able to create with the jury, guilty verdict was they didn't know who fired the gun. And that's, I think, what. That's what his defense is going to be here. Yeah. Yes, I was here, but I wasn't the one who did it.

[Mark Iglarsch]

Right, the cell phone. Absolutely. That is the only defense beyond all doubt. The cell phones are going to put him precisely where he doesn't want to be. The question is, what specific evidence do they have that he pulled the trigger? I'm guessing they got more than just putting him on the scene.

[Jonna Spilbore]

Well, they also. Which they're not supposed to bring in. But like I said, this guy has a storied pat. He's been in jail, in prison since, I don't know, 2013. I mean, and every time he gets out, he screws up and goes back in again. He wasn't out. I Should look this up. He was not out for very long.

[Mark Iglarsch]

Can we talk about that? Jon, that's important to talk about. Somebody's got some splaining to do. Okay, first of all, about letting him out. Yeah, not the prosecutor. Listen, the prosecutor fought against his parole. He was in for 10 years for aggravated robbery in 2014. Before that, he did a stint for robbery of a circle K. July 2013. He made threats about the jurors. He got another crime for that. But here's the thing. He was labeled a dangerous felony offender by prosecutors, so he didn't get paroled. But then he was wanted for new charges, attempted murder and some drug charges. And somehow he got a bond. Jon and Arthur. He got a bond. Someone explain that to me.

[Arthur Idella]

Well, let's just add on to it. The attempted murder happens when he's in prison.

[Mark Iglarsch]

Yeah.

[Arthur Idella]

They beat the heck out of a guy to an inch of his life. And then he gets released from prison. And then these charges are. Are brought.

[Jonna Spilbore]

Arthur, let's look at that. Let's look at video. Video 2. Okay, here's this nice guy while he's in prison trying to beat the crap out of a fellow inmate, which. Okay, I get that. That happens, but he should still be behind bars.

[Mark Iglarsch]

We're defense attorneys, right? I mean, we're supposed to zealously defend. Right. No one can justify this guy being released. How is this guy not a danger to the community? With his history, I don't know that he's capable of living amongst us nonviolently.

[Arthur Idella]

So that's a great. That's a great point.

[Jonna Spilbore]

Yeah.

[Mark Iglarsch]

If you give him a bond, Arthur, make it a million or two. So he can't reach that bond. There's no way he can get out. But the fact that he got out. Hey, Judge, that blood's on you.

[Arthur Idella]

The last night I was discussing on the air the difference between evil and mental illness. And are they the same? Do they cross the line? And where do we draw the line? In a society, it's a good debate where even if somebody does not commit a crime, but they're clearly mentally ill to the point where they could do harm to themselves or others. Where do their personal liberties stop? And the protection of society steps in. The case I was discussing was this poor woman on the train in North Carolina who. A clearly mentally ill person, someone who they society knew was mentally ill, had been in the system, takes out a knife and stabs her and kills her. This guy is in the same category. Maybe not as much, because when they asked this guy why'd you kill him? She said. He said, well, because she was in my brain telling me what to do. I don't think our defendant is that insane. But when you have a life that this guy has had of consistently putting his insanity above those of society. I agree with Mark. Like, as defense attorneys, you know, our job is usually to get people out of jail, but this is a guy I don't want roaring around my neighborhood.

[Mark Iglarsch]

Can we find out the name of the judge? Think about this for a second. I'm just. Again, you give him an opportunity to explain. But here's someone who, beyond all doubt, couldn't function in prison. So the answer is, well, just let. Let him out. In society with greater freedom and access to weapons. It just doesn't make any sense. And now four people are dead because of it.

[Jonna Spilbore]

You know, it makes less sense. What makes less sense is that somebody had sex with that guy and got pregnant and is carrying his child.

[Mark Iglarsch]

You're so judgmental. You're such a love. Love is blind.

[Jonna Spilbore]

Wait, but wait. The person who had sex. Sex with him apparently was a correction officer, I'm assuming, at one of the facilities in which he was housed. Look at that. Which is also a crime, as you guys know. You can't be a CO and be banging the inmates for obvious reasons. So she should also be facing some sort of charges. Certainly not murder. But apparently this guy, A, has gang affiliations. Big surprise there. B, he apparently knew was sort of related to all four of these victims somehow. So how.

[Arthur Idella]

Well, the girlfriend is the sister, right? The girlfriend's the sister of one of the victims. I mean, this is. This is like a very. I'm glad that the watchers brought this case to our attention because this is like, out of a NETFLIX documentary, right? The fact that the way everybody is all connected here, and, you know, pardon me for being politically incorrect, but this is like the epitome of, like, white trash. Like, I'm going to kill people and have. And have sex with their sisters. I mean, it's really insane. Like, if you're writing a novel, you'd struggle to bring this into your imagination. And there's a. Ready for. This is an order of protection from Drummond to everyone in the family, including the pregnant woman who's his girlfriend, who's going to be the baby. My baby's mama. And they both are fighting for the judge to lift the order of protection so he could talk to his future child's mother. And the judge said, no, you're not talking to anybody, and you guys can't talk to each other.

[Mark Iglarsch]

Johnna, let me ask you a question.

[Arthur Idella]

Sure.

[Mark Iglarsch]

What do you make of him returning the baby? And before you answer, my initial thought was, well, he knows eventually he's going back to prison, and they're the lowest of the low. He doesn't want to be seen as a baby harmer, but at the same time, he's yelling to anyone who will listen, including a network that publicized that he's cooperating with law enforcement, which also puts him on the baby killer level, too. You know, he's a snitch. So I don't understand it. Please help me understand it. Thank you.

[Jonna Spilbore]

No, well, because he's imagining that he's an FBI informant, which I guarantee you is not true. And the only reason why he let the baby live, I mean, but for the grace of God. Like, he must have had one sane moment, right? One compassionate moment while he was offing four people in a car who he considers family. And just because, Arthur, if you were defending him, I know that you would do a fantastic job, but just because nobody can put a gun in his hand just yet, I don't think is going to matter much. He did have a prelim. He had a preliminary hearing. He had some interesting things to say. There are people had some interesting things to say about him. Let's play SOT1.

[Arthur Idella]

Mr. Wilson had been shot in multiple places in his body for approximately 11 times.

[Jonna Spilbore]

Yeah, so we, we never love to hear that. That's the victim's family. Not very happy of having to sit through a preliminary hearing.

[Arthur Idella]

Donald, let me just say this. That is one of the reasons what we just saw in real life, why prosecutors do clean out cases. There are, you know, sometimes prosecutors catch heat for cleaning out murder cases or cases of extreme violence. And, you know, people. Why would they do that? Why would they do that? Because a lot of times the family members, they don't want all of that out there. They don't want their deceased loved ones autopsy to be shown to the whole world. And obviously this is a. A video, live stream court appearance. You know, they don't want to deal with all that. And they say, look, I'd rather the guy do three years less years in jail and not go through the trial and the trauma to my mother who's going to see her son shot or stabbed or whatever, because it's, you know, we've all done that. Mark, were you prosecutor?

[Mark Iglarsch]

Oh, I prosecuted, yeah.

[Arthur Idella]

Right. So I mean, I was going to say we, you know, we've both been there and it's, you Know, it's heart rate, heart wrenching and heartbreaking decisions that you have to make. But, you know, putting the family through that trauma, it's never a pleasant experience for them in any way.

[Mark Iglarsch]

So Arthur and John, they're seeking the death penalty in this case. And I ask you now objectively, we'll later compare it to Mangione, but they're seeking the death penalty in this case. Four people died. Look at his history. Do either of you think that that's too much? I don't. Shouldn't this guy. Shouldn't this guy face the ultimate sanction?

[Jonna Spilbore]

No. It's unfortunate that he didn't spend more time in prison, but no, this is a multiple murder. Right. And you said, no, it would deserve the death penalty.

[Mark Iglarsch]

Oh, okay, good. Arthur. Arthur.

[Arthur Idella]

Well, I'm not a big death penalty guy. I don't think killing someone is the way to show society that.

[Mark Iglarsch]

I'm not talking about you, Arthur. I'm talking about if prosecutors are bringing the.

[Arthur Idella]

If I was the da If I was the DA and the law was on the books, and I took an oath to uphold that law.

[Mark Iglarsch]

Right.

[Arthur Idella]

Unlike some of the prosecutors here who say, no, I'm not going to enforce all these laws that are on the books. Sorry for the editorialism right there, but yes, this. I mean, if this does not qualify for a death penalty case, I'm not exactly sure which. What would.

[Mark Iglarsch]

Right. And do you offer, you offer to waive it in favor of a plea to life? I wouldn't.

[Jonna Spilbore]

But the problem is, Mark, death penalty will take 20, 30 years.

[Mark Iglarsch]

I'm with you.

[Jonna Spilbore]

Right. And so all that time, then what? The family's like, counting the years instead of counting the minutes. I mean, it's really hard. That's the problem with the death penalty not being an effective deterrent, because you're gonna sit there and you're gonna. Language. You're gonna get all this free legal representation and appeals and all of that, and so it almost loses air.

[Mark Iglarsch]

I've made that same argument. It's six times the cost. There's no guarantees, there's no finality. I'm with you. The question is whether these facts are so horrible and so heinous that you don't then treat it like a single homicide where you give somebody a waiver of the death penalty and give them life. At some point, there has to be some objective criteria. This guy's history is so horrendous, it's so violent, and now four people are dead. Eleven times he shot that man. At some point, you Know, the guy needs to face the ultimate sanction. That's not Mark arguing it. That's me saying, you know, guys, if you still have the death penalty, there needs to be some objectivity.

[Arthur Idella]

To some extent, Mark, I agree with you, but if I was the district attorney and I was enforcing the laws, I think under a situation like this. Look, we just heard the mother wailing, right? Wailing in pain. You know, I would call them in, and I could tell you the. Here in New York City, the Brooklyn District Attorney, Eric Gonzalez, on homicide cases, he is very sensitive and listens very intently to the witches of the deceased family. You know, what do you want? You want to go through a protracted trial and, you know, the 10 years of 20 years of litigation for the death penalty, or do you want to just, you know, you don't have to look at any autopsy photos. We don't have to hear the horrible details, and he'll be spending the rest of his life in prison. And didn't we just cover a case? The kid who killed the sorority girls. Right, Coburger. Exactly. So, you know, sometimes it should always.

[Mark Iglarsch]

Be considered, Arthur, but it's not binding. It's merely persuasive. And there has to be some level of objectivity in this very subjective way of punishing people, you know, four deaths with his history. Come on. Come.

[Jonna Spilbore]

Well, but wait a minute, Mark. So the defense attorney. Put on the defense attorney's cap.

[Mark Iglarsch]

Sure.

[Jonna Spilbore]

Is going to say, as he already has, hey, nobody can put the gun in my client story.

[Mark Iglarsch]

Oh, different story. Right, but also, we case. Different story. Go ahead, John.

[Jonna Spilbore]

But also, the defendant is claiming he's innocent. Let's roll. Sock five.

[Austin Drummond]

Innocent of what I'm charged with? Yes, sir. I'm not an innocent man, but I'm not guilty of what they charged me with. I had no reason to hurt these people. They were. They were my girlfriend's family who had became my family. I took Adrian into the hospital to have her baby. I helped teach Braden to drive. Matthew was like a little brother to me, man.

[Mark Iglarsch]

Oh, I misspoke. He told me he's innocent. So he's innocent. Oh, my goodness. And I was sending him to the chair. Listen, he says whatever. Whatever he wants. Let's see what the evidence shows. Obviously. So if he didn't do it, I guess there's someone else out there who did. Okay. All right. I'll keep an open mind.

[Jonna Spilbore]

I can't even look. I can't even look at his face. And I don't know if there's drugs involved in this? Like why would. I mean granted he's just a serial criminal. Why would he just kill not one, not two, not three? But that's the thing, people.

[Arthur Idella]

There's no motive, right? And now everybody knows they don't need to prove a motive. But jurors usually prefer to have some sort of a motive floating around. And you already heard his defense. Why would I do this? This is the my soon to be child's mother's family. They were like family to me. I took this one to the hospital. I did finger painting with that one. So why. You know, ladies and gentlemen of the jury, you tell me. Yes, they don't have to prove motive. I get it. But why, why, why would he do this? Why would this guy do this? What's his motivation? Yes, you know, he was around there. But why would he be the one shooting his brother in law to be 11 times? It just doesn't make sense.

[Jonna Spilbore]

No, but it also doesn't make sense that four innocent people are dead. Thank God a seven month old baby is not. But speaking of babies, let's pivot slightly and talk for a few minutes about the baby. Emmanuel Harrow.

[Mark Iglarsch]

Nice segue, Jona. Beautiful.

[Jonna Spilbore]

Seamless, right? Thank you.

[Arthur Idella]

On the air here. I glosh. I mean and who are you? I mean, are you kidding me? Stay in your lane, Mark. Go back into the courtroom. And where's your tie? Where is your tie?

[Mark Iglarsch]

All right. Objection. Move to strike.

[Arthur Idella]

Hours. Doing my.

[Mark Iglarsch]

Please, we don't have people. I don't have someone who buys clothing for me like you do. Enough. All right.

[Jonna Spilbore]

Arthur's only the second best dressed attorney in New York. So Baby dressed one Baby Emanuel. We still do not have a body, but that does not seem to be stopping prosecutors from moving forward with murder charges. Now our good, good friend Matt Murphy, who we were speaking of before we got on the air today, says there is no problem, no problem getting a conviction even though there is not a body. What say you?

[Arthur Idella]

Well, I was involved with a case where they had like a scrape of DNA in the trunk and they got up they in the trunk of the car of the defendants and they got it. They. That was what they used to get the, to get the conviction.

[Jonna Spilbore]

These people were the parents. There's going to be DNA, Arthur. They were the parents of this young boy.

[Arthur Idella]

Excuse me, madam hostess. I didn't say the exact same facts were the same here. I'm just saying it is possible you don't. Legally, you don't need the body to get the conviction. Your friend Jose Baez Right. He was the Casey Anthony case. They didn't have a body for forever and then they finally found the body. So there are cases where people get prosecuted where you do not have the deceased corpus.

[Mark Iglarsch]

So here are my thoughts on this. We heard that they did speak to law enforcement, which is why we saw a video of him in some field and they were looking whether they ultimately find it or not, you know, that he spoke enough and she probably spoke enough, both defendants, to give them the idea that this child is not alive and that they're responsible. So whether they ultimately find the child, because maybe it was removed by, I don't want to speculate, but they can't find the child. I still think that they have a viable case.

[Jonna Spilbore]

But remember the bullshit story that the mother told way back in the beginning was that somebody came up, knocked her out in a parking lot and took the baby. Which when it comes to baby, look, when, if we disappeared, if any of us disappeared, you're gonna know that we're dead when we don't. You know, Arthur's not buying drinks at the, at a five star restaurant and Mark, you're not upping your pickleball equipment and I'm not shopping for shoes. Right. Our footprint's gone. We're dead. But you're a baby, you don't have a footprint. Right. Somebody could have taken this baby. Somebody could be living with this baby as their own. So I think while I agree you don't need a body, this one might be tough.

[Arthur Idella]

Look at that. Look at the history of the father. I mean, he's got a history of this.

[Jonna Spilbore]

Yeah.

[Mark Iglarsch]

Do you see prosecutors being able to get that in?

[Jonna Spilbore]

I was just going to say that.

[Arthur Idella]

It'S totally going to be up to them. Well, obviously if he testifies, it would come in.

[Mark Iglarsch]

He ain't testifying. There ain't no way anybody's going to care about what he has to say and judge him favorably. There is no way. So next. How else do you get that in? Prosecutors want to argue he did it before and thus he would do it again. Which the court of public opinion are going, yeah, that's exactly what we should hear. Yeah, you should hear it on this program. But at a court of law it's not going to happen unless somehow there's.

[Arthur Idella]

An exception that's supposed to happen. But there are cases where it does, where it does happen. But just for folks know, he beat a child until she was permanently disabled and then he went to school, and then he went to some school where he did a really good job, like child raising school. And so they said, okay, he doesn't need to go to jail for this. We're just going to put him on some kind of supervised release situation. And here we are with this and.

[Mark Iglarsch]

That school or somebody they could, they said he was the lowest risk to reoffend. That school's got no credibility, zero.

[Jonna Spilbore]

They almost gave him father of the year award and then let him out. It's absolutely freaking ridiculous. And that's, and that's a whole other side of this horrible and tragic case. But we are going to pivot because next we are going to give you a preview of the important motion decisions coming up for Luigi Mangione. If you have any questions or comments for us, you can now send us an [e-mail] we'd love to hear from you. And we'll be right back.

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[Jonna Spilbore]

And now for updates on what's happening with Luigi Mangione's state and federal cases. Arthur, why don't you bring us up to speed?

[Arthur Idella]

Okay, so for those of people who forgot who this young man is, he's the one man who was accused of executing the president of United Health Care early in the morning a couple of blocks from where I'm seated right now in midtown Manhattan by a hotel I walk by on a very regular basis. There is a video of it. He then went on the run and he gets caught with the gun and his diary. And Mark and I have both won some very difficult cases. But, boy, this is a doozy for a defense attorney to get out of. I mean, Usually when the execution is on video and it's pretty apparent that it is your client who's pulling the trigger. Executing someone, and you can see it there, it's pretty hard to get out of that.

[Jonna Spilbore]

He's got no shot at a not guilty.

[Arthur Idella]

So here's the deal. And this is the sad part. In my opinion of the criminal justice system, this is clearly a murder case. And in a murder case is 90% of the time prosecuted by the state, the local prosecutor's offices. So this case got international publicity and it was appropriately prosecuted. You know, the NYPD arrested him, they searched him and got him, made the arrest. The Manhattan District Attorney's office, Joel Seidman, who is the maybe the most senior guy in the office, he's a brilliant trial attorney, is going to try the case. And then Damian Williams, a prosecutor in the Southern District of New York who is looking to be President of the United States, and I don't say that jokingly, I think that's his goal in life, says, no, no, no, we're going to charge him, we're going to charge him under like this obscure, like terrorist law. So now the state prosecutor and the federal prosecutor, even though now it's a new federal prosecutor who's much better, I may add, they're at war over who's going to go first, who's going to go second. And in the feds, is this a death penalty eligible case, should there be a death penalty here? And that's where we are from a logistical point of view.

[Mark Iglarsch]

Okay, so let's slice through it all. The minute we saw that video, all of us, I'm going to speak for both of you. You tell me if I'm wrong, immediately said, okay, this guy will not and should not ever get out of prison. That is a life sentence. When you execute someone the manner in which he did. Do you both agree with me? Let's start with that premise.

[Jonna Spilbore]

Sure.

[Mark Iglarsch]

Okay. Arthur, I didn't get a yes out of you. Come on.

[Arthur Idella]

Well, I want to hear about the mitigation, but go ahead. He's in his 20s. He's in his 20s. He's in his 20s.

[Mark Iglarsch]

Hold on, hold on, please. Let's talk mitigation. Mitigation would be if somehow he proceeds to go to trial and then somehow you're balancing the aggravating and the mitigating factors in a federal death penalty case, which it should never get to that point. I believe that they will and should waive the death penalty. Let him plead in both state and or federal court to A life sentence and. And be done with it. That's what should happen. That's what will happen. That is, there is nothing else on the table. The defense lawyers are doing their job zealously to give him the constitutional rights that he deserves. But at the end of the day, at the beginning of the day, and in the middle of the day, this guy deserves life.

[Jonna Spilbore]

Well, I do think getting a death verdict would be difficult in this case.

[Mark Iglarsch]

Agreed.

[Jonna Spilbore]

So if it's going to be difficult, and really, I think the defense attorneys here are hoping for one thing and one thing only, and that is no death. They win if they just get this guy life in prison. I'm going to argue with Arthur, I'm sure, because I don't think there's one damn mitigating factor in here. And in fact, I think it's disgusting that anybody has joined.

[Arthur Idella]

Let's just say the two of you are right. Yeah, you just mentioned the word. Franklin. Do you know who gets the most mail in mail, like old school mail that we used to get in the mailbox in the whole metropolitan detention center where you have. Where you have the likes of daddy, etc. Is Minjoni. He gets gifts, he gets presents, he gets sweaters. I don't think he receives them because they get.

[Mark Iglarsch]

You're not suggesting that they're going to pack this jury with stealth jurors, people who are gaga over Manjoni, and find him not guilty? All you need is.

[Arthur Idella]

No, no, I'm not saying that. But you just need one to say the health care system is all screwed up and people need. Operations aren't getting them because they. Because it's financially not in the best interest of the insurance. Look, Mark, I don't agree with it, but I am in shock how many people protest for him. Free Luigi. It's a whole thing over here in the Manhattan courthouse. Free Luigi. There's all people outside.

[Mark Iglarsch]

Let me ask you guys. Let me ask you both. I'm with you, but let's go back to legal. Do you believe that he was committing an act of terrorism like state prosecutors are alleging? Do you believe that it fits the definition of that, and will they be able to convince a jury of it? Both of you, I would love to hear your thoughts.

[Jonna Spilbore]

No, it's not. It's not terrorists. Just call Arthur.

[Arthur Idella]

Yeah, I don't think that that was the legislative intent. Even though Justice Scalia says, I don't care what the legislative intent is. I care what the words say in the statute. And I'll think this one particular act now, he was doing something to make a met, to send a message. He's sending a message to the health care industry. And this is what doesn't make sense. He was actually treated very well by the health care industry, Luigi Mancioni. But he was sending a message and trying to intimidate a certain sector of society. And that's one of the factors that the judge is supposed to take into consideration. But I mean, just to be clear with the law in New York, and if that part gets thrown out and he's just charged with murder in the second degree and gets convicted, Judge Caro, who's been a judge for a very long time and is a no nonsense judge, is giving him 25 to life. And you know, his parole officer probably isn't even born yet.

[Mark Iglarsch]

Well, that's a victory to have second degree as opposed to first. And you know, did he really do this to affect a larger community or, or was he looking to execute this one person for some reason?

[Arthur Idella]

Well, no, but I don't think, Mark, I don't think he knew this guy. Oh, he wasn't this personal. This other guy didn't sleep with his wife. I don't think he knew. I think he was, he was sending.

[Mark Iglarsch]

Well, then you're making the argument. Then you're making the argument for terrorism. It was affecting a larger community, sending a message to all the health care CEOs. You better play more fair. Whatever his stupid ass message was at the time, so, you know, he also.

[Jonna Spilbore]

Sent a message to Brian Thompson's two children who now do not have a father. How about that message?

[Mark Iglarsch]

You're taking away my closing argument. Let's just wait. I'm ready. I'm ready for that, please. Yeah, yeah.

[Arthur Idella]

This poor guy comes up to me, I'll play. Now a flip side. Oh, man. Jodie's going to get acquitted. He's going to get acquitted. I said, yeah, right. The mother or the wife assuming, is going to testify, usually for prosecutors, the first witness, and she's going to do the body id. Talking about the, you know, the autopsy. Yes. I had to go in and identify his body. You know, how you think. And she's going to be prying on the stand. Joel Simon will have a law all prepped in the state court to be emotional. I'm sure it's not going to take much for her to be emotional talking about the execution of her husband. Those 12 jurors, all of that sympathy, all of that free Luigi stuff, I think that goes right, right out the window.

[Mark Iglarsch]

I want to Talk about the death penalty for a second. You know, in the last segment, I was saying, if not that guy who killed four people and has that criminal history, then who. Now we compare that to Mangioni. It was not. And these are some of the factors. The killing was not under the definition of especially heinous, atrocious and cruel. You know, you know those types of murders that are so horrible, he went and he shot someone horrible. But within those other. When you're comparing them to other murders, it doesn't fit that definition. He's got no priors. It's one death. I'm not minimizing it. We're just saying that you're supposed to compare him because death is different. The Supreme Court ruled. So should they be seeking the death penalty for this particular.

[Arthur Idella]

That's my point. That's the former U.S. attorney of the Southern District, Damian Williams. The same guy who indicted Puff Daddy, the same guy who went off to Mayor Eric Adams, the same guy who really wanted to grab every headline he possibly could. And just so you know, I'm not wrong, the second Biden loses, he resigns and starts his own website. Damianwilliams.com that is not what former federal prosecutors do. It's not what Rudy Giuliani did. It's not what Pre Bharara did that he's looking to make a name for himself and Minjoni. It's so rare the feds are going to steal a case from a prosecution, state prosecution, on a pure just murder case, which should just be a state case. But then he's really wants to grab the headlines. We're going to ask for the death penalty in New York, which is so rare. I mean, I don't have a recollection of the last time, except maybe killing of a police officer some years back. So, John, do you agree with us for publicity?

[Jonna Spilbore]

No, you agree, you think he should.

[Mark Iglarsch]

Get the death penalty that they should seek? Listen, I don't mind if the guy winds up on death row just because what he did was so abhorrent. I'll be telling you about it in closing argument again. But do you think that legally this should be one of those cases that the Supreme Court determines is different than the other homicides that warrant the death penalty. Yes or no?

[Jonna Spilbore]

This is not a run of the mill murder. This guy plotted, planned, wrote a manifesto, targeted the CEO of one of the largest, if not the largest, health care companies in the world. My health care company. Look, guys, we're lawyers. People don't love us either. News flash, right does that speak for yourself? Arthur is bullying Beloved to hunt us down at a CLE conference and shoot us in the back of the head because they don't like lawyers and they had a shitty divorce or they.

[Arthur Idella]

Wait, hold on. What's cle?

[Mark Iglarsch]

And no one's. John, no one's defending the actions. Let's talk legally. And you made a point. Perhaps it is.

[Jonna Spilbore]

Those are aggravating factors.

[Arthur Idella]

Hold on.

[Mark Iglarsch]

Cold, calculated, premeditated ccp. Very well thought out. That is an aggravating factor. He didn't just see the dude and say, I'm going to shoot him. So that's. To your point. There's.

[Arthur Idella]

I know a little. I know a little bit about this case. I spoke to his family when they were on the hunt for an attorney. And the things that will come out if that, if it gets to that point is that, number one, he comes from a phenomenal family who are totally in shock that this happens. Number two, that. Number two, he's going. He's getting the reputation of being like the model prisoner, so I forget who just had a surrender. And he, like, he's like the ambassador and saying, okay, this is how you survive prison. Number three, he had this horrible back at like a very, very young age. He had open spinal surgery. And there's going to be expert testimony how that affected his. His mental ability and his mental. His reasoning skills. So there'll be. And Karen Ignipolo and her husband Mark, who I know, and Mark just tried the Puff Daddy case. You know, they're not going to go in this, you know, lying down. They're going to go in this with a vigorous defense. So it's not going to just be like an open and shut situation.

[Mark Iglarsch]

You think, you think he's going to play to life if it's offered correct? I mean, come on, you guys would.

[Arthur Idella]

I would think that's what his parents, Joni's parents and family would ask him to do.

[Mark Iglarsch]

Correct?

[Jonna Spilbore]

I think that's the goal. I think that's the goal. And we all agree we probably will hear more about the extreme emotional disturbance as the case goes on, because like we said, September is a big month and it's not over yet. But talking about Mangione is over for us for now. Next, your emails. Our closing arguments in the 2011 case where a woman was stabbed. Get this 20 times. And a pathologist labeled it a suicide. Don't go anywhere. We'll be right back.

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[Jonna Spilbore]

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[Jonna Spilbore]

Okay, so we're going to get to your questions and our own closing arguments. But first we want to highlight a case that is back in the spotlight after 14 years. Gruesome and a head scratcher. Guys, Ellen Greenberg revisited. Let me just give you the tee up. 2011, Ellen had a fiance named Sam Goldberg. He was returning from a workout in his apartment complex to find the door to the apartment he shared with Ellen. A first grade teacher was latched from the inside. She wasn't responding to his knocks, calls or texts. So Goldberg later called the police and had to break in. He found Ellen slumped and bloodied on the kitchen floor, a 10 inch knife protruding from her chest. He then proceeded to call 911 and tell the dispatch that she stabbed herself. Can we roll that SA6?

[911 Caller (Ellen Greenberg Scene)]

I'm looking at her right now. She. I don't. I can't see anything. She doesn't. There's nothing broken. She's bl.

[911 Dispatcher (Ellen Greenberg Scene)]

Ellie, you don't know where she's bleeding from. Cancer. Blood coming from.

[911 Caller (Ellen Greenberg Scene)]

It's. I think her head. I think she hit her head, I think.

[911 Dispatcher (Ellen Greenberg Scene)]

But it's up everywhere with me over the phone so they can.

[911 Caller (Ellen Greenberg Scene)]

I have to. Right.

[911 Dispatcher (Ellen Greenberg Scene)]

Okay. To get her flat on her back. Bare her chest. Okay. You want to rip her shirt off?

[911 Caller (Ellen Greenberg Scene)]

Shirt won't come off. It's a zipper. Oh my God. She stabbed herself.

[911 Dispatcher (Ellen Greenberg Scene)]

Where?

[911 Caller (Ellen Greenberg Scene)]

She fell in a knife. Oh no. Her knife's sticking Out.

[911 Dispatcher (Ellen Greenberg Scene)]

What?

[911 Caller (Ellen Greenberg Scene)]

There's a knife sticking out of her heart.

[911 Dispatcher (Ellen Greenberg Scene)]

Oh, she stabbed herself?

[911 Caller (Ellen Greenberg Scene)]

I guess so. I don't know where she fell on it. I don't know.

[911 Dispatcher (Ellen Greenberg Scene)]

Okay, well, don't touch it.

[911 Caller (Ellen Greenberg Scene)]

Okay, so I'm just about to let her hear now. I mean, what do I do?

[911 Dispatcher (Ellen Greenberg Scene)]

I mean, you can't. If the knife is in her chest, it's going to be kind of hard for you to do CPR at this time.

[911 Caller (Ellen Greenberg Scene)]

Oh, no. Oh, my goodness.

[Jonna Spilbore]

That dispatcher said don't touch it again because I'm sure he plunged it into her chest. What a bad acting job. I mean, am I. Am I alone in this? This guy was so full of shit when he made that 911 call. It's obvious. Mark, do you agree?

[Arthur Idella]

My heart breaks for the guy, man. He seems like he's traumatized and, I mean, I, I'm.

[Jonna Spilbore]

Do I have to. I guess I have to.

[Arthur Idella]

She fell on a knife, Donna. She fell on the knife.

[Jonna Spilbore]

Yeah, we, we. That happens a lot.

[Mark Iglarsch]

Okay? We don't have video of what happened at the crime scene, so we're left to speculate. Right? So here's what. I'm gonna lay it out for you. Here's what I think happened. A small police car showed up to the scene and about 20 law enforcement officers came out and they had difficulty walking to the crime scene because they had super large shoes, red and shiny, they had suspenders, a red nose, and the department issued rainbow wigs when they got to the scene. To his credit, Chief Chuckles said, I need you fellows to do a thorough examination of the crime scene. To which Detective Tickles said, boss, why do we have to spend five minutes doing a thorough investigation? Let's just ask the guy who found his fiance. He has a theory. So Sergeant Silly Pants went over and asked him, hey, what happened? And he said, she committed suicide. And that's when Inspector Giggles said, yeah, but there's like 20 stab wounds, including some to the back. And that's when Agent Lollipop stepped in and he said, guys, let me remind you of what we learned at Barnum and Bailey Investigative Instit Suit. It's not about the truth. It's about having fun. Fun, fun. Honk, honk, squirt, squirt. That's all I've got. Thank you.

[Jonna Spilbore]

That's a pretty good theory, Mark. Yeah, that's. That. That's about.

[Arthur Idella]

Obviously, obviously with the. The wounds would speak for themselves. But John, isn't there a pathologist who said it could, it could have been some of these Wounds could have been self inflicted.

[Jonna Spilbore]

They ruled it a suicide. She has. Can I show you the diagram? She's got 10 knives in her chest, 10 in the back of her neck. How is that physically possible? How much money did someone have to pay this pathologist to say that 20 stab wounds to the back and the front was suicide? I don't blame. So her parents wanted this reopened. I do not blame them. Thank God that they are reopening and taking another look at this. I'm telling you, the boyfriend who was not the least bit upset to just happen to find his girlfriend lying dead, can't do cpr. Do I really have to? Oh, no, it's him.

[Mark Iglarsch]

The police's response, as you can tell, angers me to no end. They didn't take the body into custody. They say, hey, do whatever you want with it. He got it immediately cremated. The entire scene was wiped down and sanitized. So when the police finally wanted to do something about this. Oh, yeah, everything was gone. And these parents have spent all their life savings. I watched interviews of them. They're grieving because they know this is not what occurred. This was not suicide.

[Jonna Spilbore]

No. And kudos to them for just not letting it go. I don't blame them and I hope that we're going to continue to follow this right now. Mark?

[Mark Iglarsch]

Yes.

[Jonna Spilbore]

We have some mail to attend to.

[Mark Iglarsch]

Yeah, we do read this stuff, by the way.

[Jonna Spilbore]

We do love it and we love them. We started taking emails. Mark, would you like to read the email from Shannon?

[Mark Iglarsch]

I'd be happy to. Shannon wrote, I have a master's degree in psychology and worked my way up doing administrative work. I'm 37 years old. I thought about becoming a lawyer, but suspect I may be too old. Is 37 too old to become a lawyer? Give it to me straight. Absolutely not, Shannon.

[Arthur Idella]

No way.

[Mark Iglarsch]

No way. That's young. And you have the psychology background. Absolutely. If your heart's in the right place. You want to help people. You want to be an industry where you can zealously assist people who need you. Absolutely. Please join us. We'd love to have.

[Arthur Idella]

I got sworn in as a lawyer at 25, but I would say I didn't know how to be a lawyer until I was 40. No, I'm actually not even saying that. It's.

[Mark Iglarsch]

You're still learning.

[Arthur Idella]

Well, that's why they call it the practice of law, because you're always practicing. You never get there. But also there's a level of maturity, I think that that is very, very useful. Not only mastering the law but dealing with clients, dealing with your adversaries, dealing with your judges. So.

[Mark Iglarsch]

And work, life, balance. I mean, listen, trying to. One thing is being a lawyer. Being a. Being a happy lawyer is challenging and staying spiritually fit every day when you're fulfilled, fighting for a living.

[Jonna Spilbore]

Trying to. Trying to shove your soul back into your being. Yeah. As it's getting sucked out. That's. That's what we have to work on as, as lawyers. And. And like Shannon, I too, am 37 years old, and I have been practicing for 32 of those years. And I would only say to her, how old are you going to be in three years if you don't go to law school? So go if you want.

[Arthur Idella]

Go for it.

[Jonna Spilbore]

Yes, we have another. We have another quick email from Renata, who says hi. Love true crime, love this show. We love you, Renata, for saying that she would also love to see Matt Murphy or anyone on the opposite view versus Mark Aragos in regard to whether the men, the Menendez brothers, should be paroled. Renata, before we address that, Friday's your lucky day because Matt Murphy, Mark Garagos gonna be on this Friday's show. Don't miss it. And I'm sure they have opposite views. So, guys, this is, I think, fast becoming my favorite part of the show. We are now going to do our closing arguments. I am going to go last, not because it's the best, but because I am more wordy than the two of you combined.

[Mark Iglarsch]

Yes.

[Jonna Spilbore]

So.

[Mark Iglarsch]

Yes, you are.

[Jonna Spilbore]

I am. So let's say, let's go in alphabetical order. Arthur, take it away.

[Arthur Idella]

So I was misquoted or mischaracterized about an appearance I made on air about Ghislaine Maxwell and whether there was a quid pro quo for her to speak to the Justice Department and then her housing being moved, even though I made it very clear that although I represent Ms. Maxwell, I know nothing about that because I wasn't involved in that part of it, and I didn't want to know anything about it because I didn't want to be in a position to have to speak to it. So I really don't know what happened. However, the criminal justice system is based on quid pro quo. It is based on plea bargaining. Period. Amen. End of story. If we didn't have people pleading guilty, the system would come to a grinding halt. And in fact, in the federal system, once you plead guilty, you get an obvious advantage because whatever your exposure was, whatever your possible jail sentence was, the recommendations of the judge, it automatically gets reduced by law. So that's. Those your guidelines get reduced by law. So, yes, folks, I hate to break the news to you, but the criminal justice system is a quid pro quo system when it comes to defendants pleading guilty. And I think Justice Alito wrote in his last decision about this on over 94% of people who are arrested in federal court ultimately plead guilty.

[Jonna Spilbore]

94. Okay. Bravo, Mr. Eiglarsch.

[Mark Iglarsch]

Okay. 16 and 19. 16 and 19. Those are the ages of the sons of Brian Thompson, who was allegedly killed by Luigi Mangione. That's how old they were when he was killed. There's also his wife that was left. And what I'm getting real tired of hearing is people justifying his actions somehow, because some healthcare companies aren't treating people fairly, that somehow this shooting is justified. All I want you to do is think about that 16 year old, the 19 year old. One of my sons is 19 years old, who will no longer have a father in their life. Just think about that.

[Jonna Spilbore]

Pretty powerful. Okay, we're gonna pivot with mine because I want to rant favorably about Cardi B. Cardi B maybe the second wealthiest female rapper on the planet, but when it comes to refusing to be a bullseye for bullshit, she takes first place. Last week, as you saw right here on the podcast, famed rapper Cardi B prevailed in a civil case brought against her by a woman seeking $24 million for a 60 second chance encounter. Plaintiff claimed Cardi B had battered her, causing injury to plaintiff's face. Cardi's weapon of choice, a well manicured fingernail. The rapper denied any wrongdoing and said she was merely bucking against the blatant invasion of privacy thrust upon her by the plaintiff, who happened to be a security guard behaving more like paparazzi as Cardi emerged from the hallowed halls of the gyno. Celebrities get sued all the time by gold diggers looking to cash in. But they're not the only ones to blame. There's an entire industry of drooling lawyers who choose to chase Bentleys over ambulances, going after deep pocket defendants for nonsense, AKA nuisance all the time. The incentive isn't justice, it's math. The hope is that the rich defendant will quickly and quietly write a check to make the matter go away and avoid the unnecessary scrutiny, crappy publicity, and thousand dollar an hour legal bills that go along with high profile litigation. Sadly, it works. Until it didn't. Enter Cardi B. Cardi could have written a paltry check against that laughable multimillion dollar demand and called it a day. But she didn't. Why? Because what she wasn't willing to do was take anybody's shit. The price tag for being a patsy was simply too high to pay. It was also a decision that likely cost her more in legal fees than any settlement sum would have been an added bonus for those who watched is the line in the sand she drew by her testimony, which was gold record good. Cardi B may not make my kind of music, but she's definitely my kind of person. She didn't just take the stand. She took a stand and refused to be somebody's doormat, chew toy or slot machine. But you don't have to be rich and famous to follow suit. The world may refer to her as Cardi B, but I say why not be Cardi and never write a check that your self worth can't cash.

[Mark Iglarsch]

Nice.

[Arthur Idella]

Jonael, you lowered your hourly rate to a thousand dollars an hour. That was very nice of you.

[Mark Iglarsch]

Excellent.

[Jonna Spilbore]

I was gonna do my Cardi B imitation and throw pen at the camera, but okay, I guess what we will now do is say thanks to two of my my all time favorites. I mean we love each other even though we give each other crap. But thank you and thank you everybody for joining us today at MK True Crime. Don't forget to send us your story suggestions, your questions, your comments. All to MK true crimeevilmaycaremedia.com that's MKTruck true crime@devilmaycare media.com the next show drops Friday. Have a great rest of your week.

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