Questions About Brown U. Shooter Manhunt, Rob Reiner’s Son’s Defense, and Sherrone Moore’s Meltdown

Summary

MK True Crime – Episode Summary

Podcast: MK True Crime
Host: Ashley Merchant, with Jonas Spilbore and John Espilbore, Arthur Aidala
Episode: Questions About Brown U. Shooter Manhunt, Rob Reiner’s Son’s Defense, and Sherrone Moore’s Meltdown
Date: December 17, 2025

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Overview:

This packed episode of MK True Crime, led by criminal defense attorney Ashley Merchant with fellow attorneys Jonas Spilbore and Arthur Aidala, tackles three headline-making stories: the ongoing manhunt for the Brown University shooter, the shocking alleged patricide of Hollywood icon Rob Reiner, and the downfall and arrest of University of Michigan football coach Sherrone Moore. The panel dives deep into investigative gaps, family tragedy, the struggles of mental illness, legal and ethical controversies, and gendered double standards, all through their signature blend of candor, wit, and legal expertise.

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Main Topics & Key Insights

1. Brown University Shooter Manhunt

Discussion Begins: [01:05]
Summary:

• The shooting at Brown University left two students dead and nine injured inside a classroom late on a Saturday ([01:09]).
• Authorities detained and then released a person of interest after evidence did not implicate them.
• The biggest controversies: lack of surveillance clarity and questions regarding the suspect’s identity, motive, and knowledge of campus security.

Key Discussion Points:

• Evidence & Police Actions: The panel commends law enforcement for not charging someone without solid evidence ([03:14]), but expresses concern about investigative confusion and apparent lack of usable campus surveillance.
• Surveillance Footage Mystery: Jonas Spilbore questions “how is it in the year 2025...there isn’t recording galore” given the high density of cameras ([03:39]). Ashley suggests the suspect likely knew the campus intimately ([04:57]).
• Targeted Killing or Random Act?: Discussion of possible motive centers on rumors that Ella Cook, president of the campus Republican club and a Christian conservative, may have been targeted ([09:49]).

Notable Quotes:

• “So many more questions than answers…why do we not have more, a better description, more video of whoever killed these two people and shot nine more on a busy campus?” – Jonas Spilbore [04:45]
• “It’s almost like something on a Mission Impossible...someone who knew how to avoid the cameras.” – John Espilbor [07:48]
• “As of this taping, the manhunt for a suspect continues, which I'm personally happy that the police and the prosecutors decided to actually let this man go when they realized...they weren't confident.” – Ashley Merchant [03:17]

Memorable Moment:
Panelists share the human toll, eulogizing the slain students' potential, and expressing empathy for families blindsided by campus violence ([05:54], [08:36]).

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2. Rob Reiner’s Son’s Defense: Patricide in Brentwood

Discussion Begins: [12:13]
Summary:

• Hollywood director Rob Reiner and wife Michelle are killed; son Nick Reiner, with a troubled history of substance use and mental illness, is arrested.
• Discussion focuses on the intersection of family tragedy, privilege, parental responsibility, and the limits of intervention for adult children suffering from addiction and mental illness.

Key Discussion Points:

• Timeline & Event Recap: Nick fought with parents at a holiday party (hosted by Conan O’Brien), hours before the murders; daughter discovers the bodies ([13:00]).
• Family Struggles: The Reiners reportedly tried every avenue (17 rehab stints, therapy, guardianship), but Nick remained unstable and sometimes homeless ([17:00]).
• Legal Defense:
  • California has an insanity defense but no diminished capacity plea; attorneys debate how Nick’s mental state and drug use complicate his culpability and options ([20:42]).
  • "He had to be up close and personal and stab them...he had to be in such a state of mind that he wasn’t acting like he was in the clip that we just showed...something else was really wrong." – Jonas Spilbore [21:11]
• Victims’ Rights (Marcy’s Law): Family members, especially surviving siblings, will have an influential say in sentencing recommendations ([25:33]).

Notable Quotes:

• “You can't make chicken salad out of chicken shit.” – Jonas Spilbore quoting a judge on defense limitations ([47:07])
• “If a family member killed my parents, I’d want revenge, I wouldn't even want justice.” – Jonas Spilbore [27:22]
• “It is, look, at this time of year as well, Ashley, ... it just turns at your heartstrings.” – John Espilbor [26:53]
• “What would the parents want?...is society the one that's going to have a say? Is it, do we want to prosecute him to the fullest extent of the law, or...give the family a say?” – Ashley Merchant [25:33]

Memorable Moments:

• Emotional reflection on the parent-child bond, including an anecdote involving Rob and his own father Carl Reiner ([16:06], [24:29]).
• A peek at the pain of defense attorneys representing the deeply troubled and guilty, and the complexity of seeking not just punishment but humane resolution ([28:04]).

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3. Sherrone Moore’s Meltdown: The Coach, the Mistress, and the Scissors

Discussion Begins: [32:32]
Summary:

• University of Michigan football coach Sherrone Moore is fired after an affair with an assistant, then accused of breaking into his ex-lover’s home, threatening self-harm, and stalking.
• The team examines the case as a mix of celebrity downfall, male fragility, legal double-standards, and Title IX fallout.

Key Discussion Points:

• Moore’s Actions: After being fired for an affair with his subordinate (Paige Shiver), Moore allegedly broke into her apartment, threatened self-harm, and was arrested ([32:32]).
• Gender Double Standard: Panel questions why only Moore was fired, not the woman involved, and anticipates imminent litigation ([36:53], [37:49]).
• Abuse of Power: The university’s explanation: Moore was her supervisor, making him uniquely responsible.
• Long-term Outcomes: Both agree Moore’s career is essentially finished and expect Shiver will have a lucrative wrongful-termination/harassment suit ([38:53]).

Notable Quotes:

• “He's just acting like a jilted lover, pansy-ass wimp of a guy...get a life, buddy. Find your balls, where are his balls?” – Jonas Spilbore [33:43]
• “Stalking...is the precursor to the violence...they want to monitor you and make sure you're not doing anything else.” – John Espilbor [35:08]
• “Takes two to tango...so she's just a little bit more about her...she gets a 55% salary bump...only he's fired, she's not?” – Ashley Merchant [36:53]

Memorable Moments:

• Satirical call-outs about college coaching pressures and pay, the “golden ticket” of scandal litigation, and a prediction about private details (texts) emerging soon ([37:49]).
• Lively banter about generational shifts in relationships, drinking, and even birth rates: “We're gonna go extinct thanks to Gen Z.” – Jonas Spilbore [43:48]

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4. Brief: Brian Walsh Verdict

Discussion Begins: [44:12]
Summary:

• Brian Walsh is found guilty of murdering and dismembering his wife.
• Panel highlights the uphill battle for his defense (having already pled guilty to hiding the body and lying to police) and the emotional rollercoaster of waiting for jury verdicts as trial lawyers.

Notable Quotes:

• “That is either the best moment or the worst moment in your career...every time I listen to a jury verdict being rendered, I have PTSD.” – Ashley Merchant [45:33]
• “You can’t make chicken salad out of chicken shit.” – Jonas Spilbore quoting a judge [47:07]

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Listener Questions & Rants

Starts: [50:12], [54:25]

• Case assignments they'd want:

  • Arthur: Casey Anthony trial (past), Trump's criminal appeal (present) ([50:52])
  • Jonas: Trump’s criminal trial, Johnny Depp trial ([53:01])
  • Ashley: Johnny Depp trial, plus any case with good cross-examination ([53:47])

• Personal "rants" segment:

  • Jonas: Shares personal story of surviving a violent attack, emphasizing the importance of healing “invisible wounds” after trauma ([54:25]).
    • “The wounds that change you most are the ones that do not bleed. Do not ignore them.” – Jonas Spilbore [58:29]
  • Arthur: Reflects on family dynamics, mental health, legacy, and tragedy using the Reiner case ([58:39]).
  • Ashley: Discusses the legal and policy dead end for mentally ill defendants who self-medicate, criticizing the lack of options besides prison ([61:19]).

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Memorable Quotes & Moments (with Timestamps)

• “So many more questions than answers…why do we not have more...video of whoever killed these two people...on a busy, busy campus?” – Jonas Spilbore [04:45]
• “You have to have a plan...Don’t ignore the invisible wounds” – Jonas Spilbore [58:29]
• “Takes two to tango…I mean, yeah, that’s the thing.” – Ashley Merchant [38:53]
• “You can't make chicken salad out of chicken shit.” – (Judge, via Jonas Spilbore) [47:07]
• “If a family member killed my parents, I’d want revenge...I wouldn’t even want justice. I would want revenge.” – Jonas Spilbore [27:22]

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Episode Structure

• [01:05] – Brown University Shooter discussion
• [12:13] – Rob Reiner tragedy & defense issues
• [32:32] – Sherrone Moore’s scandal and legal fallout
• [44:12] – Brian Walsh verdict & defense reflections
• [50:12] – Listener Q&A: Dream cases
• [54:25] – Panelist rants: Trauma, mental health & legal system critique

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Tone and Style

• Candid, empathetic, and at times darkly humorous.
• Panelists are critical of authorities when warranted, fiercely protective of victims, and unsparing in their analysis of defendants and lawyers alike.
• Frequent use of sharp, informal language and banter (“find your balls”), paired with deeply personal anecdotes.

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Conclusion / Takeaways

• The show grapples with the failures and limitations of contemporary policing, crisis intervention for the mentally ill, and institutional responses to gender, power, and scandal.
• Panelists advocate for better resources for mental health, more sophisticated investigative work, and compassion for those left behind by tragedy.
• The episode closes with rants urging listeners not to ignore psychological wounds, and to critically consider society’s approach to mental illness-induced crime.

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This episode serves anyone seeking not just legal reporting, but a frank, nuanced consideration of the dynamics and human cost behind true crime headlines.

Transcript

[Megyn Kelly]

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[John Espilbor]

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[Megyn Kelly]

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[John Espilbor]

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[Megyn Kelly]

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[John Espilbor]

Hey, it's Chris K. From Target. Wishing you and yours a very merry Christmas. Hit it, Dasher. Give me some Jingle Bells. Dancer, Prancer. Let's hear a Beat.

[Ashley Merchant]

And mouse chorus.

[John Espilbor]

Oh, it's a beautiful job, everybody. All right now bring it home. Happy holidays, everybody.

[Ashley Merchant]

Welcome to MK True Crime. I'm Ashley Merchant, your host today. I'm a criminal defense attorney from Atlanta, Georgia. Here's what's on the docket today. The manhunt for the Brown University shooter who killed two students is still underway as officials detained and then released a person of interest. We'll bring you the latest. And Hollywood legend Rob Reiner and his wife Michelle were allegedly murdered by their own son over the weekend will bring you the shocking details. Former University of Michigan football coach Sharon Moore was arrested on charges of trespassing and stalking. We'll share why. I'm joined today by fellow MK True Crime contributors Jonas Spilbore, criminal defense attorney and founding attorney at John Espilbo Law, and Arthur Adala, New York trial attorney. Let's start with the shooting at Brown University. The shooting happened inside a classroom around 4pm on Saturday. Two students were killed and nine were injured. A person of interest was initially detained, but prosecutors got more information and luckily quickly released that person after figuring out that they had not done anything. Here's the mayor of Providence, Brett Smiley, speaking to Good Morning America on Monday about why they released that person, the initial person of interest. It takes time to run this evidence.

[John Espilbor]

It takes time to process information that.

[Megyn Kelly]

Was collected and hard evidence that was collected.

[John Espilbor]

And as we continued to process that evidence, it was determined that this person.

[Ashley Merchant]

Of interest needed to be released and we continue with our investigation.

[John Espilbor]

To be clear, we've never stopped our investigation. Providence police and our partners and state.

[Ashley Merchant]

Police, the FBI and others have continuously.

[John Espilbor]

Run down leads and worked this case.

[Ashley Merchant]

Beyond the person of interest who had been detained yesterday.

[Megyn Kelly]

So you're absolutely convinced the person of interest said nothing to do with this?

[Ashley Merchant]

We're not saying that definitively what we're saying is that after a review of.

[John Espilbor]

The evidence that was gathered, it was.

[Ashley Merchant]

Determined that the person of interest needed to be released.

[John Espilbor]

But until such time as we have.

[Ashley Merchant]

An individual in custody who we're confident.

[John Espilbor]

Is responsible, that we're prepared to press.

[Ashley Merchant]

Charges and then prosecute, we're going to continue to leave all doors open. So as of this taping, the manhunt for a suspect continues, which I'm personally happy that the police and the prosecutors decided to actually let this man go when they realized that they weren't confident that he was the one. But, Jonna, what are your thoughts about this search?

[Jonas Spilbore]

I knew you were going to be pleased by that, Ashley.

[Megyn Kelly (Sponsor/Ad segments)]

I did.

[Jonas Spilbore]

And I get it. And I get it, and I think I am a little bit, too. But my initial thought on this search is we are not getting off to a good start, are we? So many more questions than answers. And to begin, how is it in the year 2025, and maybe they have more than this, that there isn't recording galore of the person who went in on campus and shot up so many people on a crowded campus. And then the video that we are shown as the public apparently is of a person before the shooting occurred. And I watched it a number of times. This person, who we're assuming is a male, but I'm not 100% convinced. Put a pin in that. Is acting strangely. You can see him there. He's walking now look, he's walking. And then he stops. Why does he stop? Look across the street for people who are watching us on YouTube. There's a person there, and he decides to act a little cagey, like, oh, you know what? I think I was going to go to this establishment here, whatever it is with the sign, but now I changed my mind. Oh, let me read this a little more.

[John Espilbor]

So.

[Jonas Spilbore]

So is that suspicious?

[Ashley Merchant]

Yes.

[Jonas Spilbore]

But why do we not have more, a better description, more video of whoever killed these two people and shot nine more on a busy, busy campus?

[Ashley Merchant]

Well, my best guess, I was thinking about that as well. And I was thinking maybe this person knows the university, you know, because I think I read somewhere where there was 8 to 900 different camera views. And how was he possibly able to miss all of these camera views unless he knew the area? You know, we see these movies where people are casing the joint ahead of time. He seemed to have known it. But, you know, Arthur, what do you think about the fact that he had a mask? Did he know these victims? I mean, there's been reports that this one young girl who was shot and died, that maybe she was the target of this? I mean, what do you make that's.

[John Espilbor]

That is, you know, I don't know how to feel about this, about whether she was the target or not. In other words, is that make this. This tragedy better or worse? Is it better if it's just a random thing and the guy's just in there spraying people? Or is it better if it's an execution? I mean, look at this young lady. Oh, my God. She was the president of the Republican Students Council or something along those lines.

[Jonas Spilbore]

College Republicans.

[Megyn Kelly (Sponsor/Ad segments)]

College.

[John Espilbor]

I mean, it's like, it's devastating. You know, I have a son who's in college. And you know, the last thing as a parent, that on a Saturday when your children are like, they're doing the right thing, right? They're not watching the ball game, they're preparing for finals. I mean, you cannot. This young lady is in a spectacular school, right? She's. I mean, Brown is an Ivy League spectacular school. He's doing the right thing on the Saturday before finals. She's doing her review. She's doing everything she's supposed to do, and now she's dead. And as a parent, how you wrap your brain around that is just impossible to me. I will tell you guys that I spoke to my friend, the former chief of the nypd, John Shell, yesterday about this. And you know, he was surprised, to your point, actually, with all of these cameras, right, that. That they have not been able to track the person, not necessarily to see the exact act, but to see they want from this camera. And then they pop up on that camera and then they pick them up on the third camera and then the fifth, and then the 10th and the 25th. And. And then they. I mean, look, I had a client. That's how they followed. They follow her from the street to the. Down into the subway, onto the subway off the next platform. I mean, it took them two, four days, but eventually they got all the cameras and they took it right to her apartment.

[Jonas Spilbore]

Ashley, back. I'm sorry, Arthur, to get back to your point for a minute, do you also think it's odd that this guy, that this was a Saturday? So if I'm a random killer. Going back to both your points, if I'm just a random killer and I want to shoot a bunch of college students, I'm probably not going to go on campus on a Saturday unless I'm going to go, you know, in middle of the week, right? Middle of the day, middle of the week. So maybe he did have Some connection with the school. But you got to be some kind of genius to miss all the cameras, right? You've got to be the person who installed all 900. I know that's really odd to me.

[Ashley Merchant]

It is really odd. It is really odd.

[John Espilbor]

It's almost like something on a Mission Impossible and I'm not making a joke like on a Mission Impossible. And like Tom Cruise knows where all those red beams are and he knows how to get under them, around them, or he knows how to turn them off for. Even if it's for 10 seconds or pause them or freeze them or. Because it's just not making sense. And look, I don't want to ask aspersions on the police department, you know, up in Providence, but we are several days into this now and the fact that they had one person of interest and I believe the reason why they let him go is the ballistics of the weapon they thought he possessed did not match the ballistics on the scene. I don't know if they had a lot of choice but to let him go. I don't know how altruistic they were being by letting him go. It's a little scary and sad that we don't have anybody in our sights at this point.

[Ashley Merchant]

I know. And the other gentleman who was, who was murdered, Umair Zukov I believe is his name, he was studying to be a brain surgeon. Apparently he had had some brain injury when he was young and it motivated him to want to become a brain surgeon. So it's just definitely a tragedy. And all of these kids studying for finals, getting ready to go home for the holidays. I mean, it's just awful timing. I can't help but wonder what the police are doing. The FBI hopefully is helping, but they're probably making a timeline, I would imagine, like you said, Arthur, you know, where was he before he went into this building? Where was he after? Where did he go? They're going to have to follow him and they're going to have to see, you know, who owned guns in this area and obviously motive. You know, was there any motive or was this a random shooting? I mean, I would hope that that's what they're looking for and I would hope that they would get some answers before these kids have to go home for, for, you know, break for college. I can't even imagine what their parents are going through. So we've got another interesting sot on this case where Mark Halperin, he's actually does an MK Media show called Next up with Mark Halperin. Heard that Ella Cook, the, the young lady we were talking about, that she's actually, she's a Christian conservative student like you said, she's the president of the Young Republicans Club there on campus, but that she was actually the target of the shooting. Do we have SAT six?

[John Espilbor]

The family of Ella Cook, the Alabama.

[Megyn Kelly]

Young woman who was a sophomore, has been told that she was the target of what happened at Brown.

[John Espilbor]

I have no idea whether that's true. There's other theories about why the person did what they did, but now that.

[Megyn Kelly]

We don't know who the the assailant is, it's gonna be harder to say.

[Ashley Merchant]

And she's from Alabama, I believe, and was up there in Brown University, you know, just for college.

[Megyn Kelly (Sponsor/Ad segments)]

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[Ashley Merchant]

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[Ashley Merchant]

I want to talk a little bit about Rob Reiner. We've got a lot to talk about with that case. So I want to talk about another tragedy that we've seen, you know, around the holidays. Everything is tragic, but it seems a little bit more tragic this time of year. So Rob Reiner was murdered along with his wife Michelle, and their son is in custody. Their son nick, he's a 32 year old gentleman. He's in custody out in California and we've just gotten news that he's actually hired an attorney. He's got Alan Jackson representing him. So knowing Alan Jackson and his reputation, I assume we'll be hearing more media reports about this. But what essentially happened was, you know, Nick, the son, he's been suffering from mental illness, he's been suffering from different substance abuse since he was a teenager. And it sounds like his parents did everything that they could for many, many years. And recently he was at a holiday party at Conan o' Brien's holiday party. And people saw them fighting, saw him fighting with his parents. His mother, Michelle had, had contacted the authorities and said that she was concerned about her son's mental health, about his well being. And you know, later that evening, their daughter actually found both her parents dead in their Brentwood home. And if you all remember, Brentwood is where is where the O.J. simpson tragedy happened. And this is definitely an area where, you know, you sort of don't expect these types of things to happen. Killings are rare. It's about a mile from the home of where O.J. simpson's wife, Nicole Brown Simpson and her friend Ron Goldman were killed back in the 90s in 1994. So, you know, it's a surprising area. But just to bring everybody up to speed, there was this, this heated argument at Conan o' Brien's Christmas party recently. Very recently, last Saturday night, Rob and Nick got into a very loud argument and we were talking about this before the show. Apparently his parents brought him to this party to kind of keep an eye on him because they had been very worried about him. So we were, you know, John and I were talking about, well, why did, why was he at the party if he had been acting up and things like that. But, you know, I guess his parents were trying to keep an eye on him. And I just can't help thinking, I mean, what are parents supposed to do in this situation when their son is, is, you know, actively in this mental, mental state, you know, using drugs, things like that. I mean, how could they possibly have prevented some type of tragedy like this?

[Jonas Spilbore]

JOHNNA Ashley their son was 31 or is 31 years old with a history of drug addiction, mental illness. Now, I am not. This is a tragedy. I don't care how you feel about Rob Reiner. This is an absolute tragedy. But when you have somebody with, with his means, somebody, you know, who could, I don't know, put him in the best rehab of all, get him a professional guardian, do all the things, it's no longer a parent's responsibility when you are dealing with another adult child. How do you get really tough in a situation like this if you don't have Rob Reiner's means, you can't buy your child a house in another state to keep him away from you. You go to family court, you get an order of protection against your family member. You do things so that they can't come around you. But God darn, you're going to take a drug addict and take them to a Conan o' Brien Bryan Christmas party? That's like taking a diabetic into a candy store.

[John Espilbor]

All right, all right.

[Jonas Spilbore]

No, don't all right me. That makes no sense to me.

[Ashley Merchant]

He was, what do you think, Arthur, trying to babysit him?

[John Espilbor]

I have dealt very closely with families who have more significant means than, than Mr. Than Rob Reiner, literally. And they have sent their kids away and they come back and they, they relapse. And as a parent, you know, you want to protect your child. I don't think Rob Reiner in his wildest dreams imagined what took place, the horror that took place, what would have taken place. You're talking about Rob Reiner who worked with his father, right? His father was as famous, if not more so, than he was. And you have that father and son team there. I just watched the Emmy Awards. When Rob Reiner got the Emmy Award and he made a very short speech and his father comes on stage and gives him a kiss on the cheek, and then the microphone says, that's from your mother. And his mother, by the way, is the woman in When Harry Met Sally. When Sally's having the orgasm and the older lady says, I. I want what she's happening, what she's having. That's Rob Reiner's mom. He put in that movie that he directed. But, John, I don't know how you blame the parents on this one.

[Jonas Spilbore]

I'm not.

[John Espilbor]

Well, you said they should go to family court. They should put him. Put him in an institution. They did a lot. They did a lot of that. I mean, the kid has gotten a ton of therapy. His father made a movie with him, a B level, C level movie with him, just to try to create that father son relationship to see if it could pull it. Pull it out of him. And obviously, sadly and tragically, it didn't work.

[Ashley Merchant]

Yeah, it's. So apparently he's been in his first rehab when he was 15, his 15th birthday. They put him in an initial rehab and it says that he's been in something like 17 rehabs to follow. So I think the parents definitely were trying, but he's been homeless. Apparently he was homeless and they were fighting over him going back into yet another rehab. So, you know, they were trying to get him back into another rehab. But we've got a sod about how Rob is talking about how difficult it is to deal with Nick's addiction.

[John Espilbor]

I think that sought to, you know, the parent is. Your main job is to keep your child safe. So I, I would do anything. I even. I felt at a loss. So I would do anything that, as we say in the film, anybody with a desk and a diploma, I would listen to them. And the whole idea of tough love and you have to be a certain way and I. It's not my nature. It's not the way I am built, but I went and did that, you know, and I think that, you know, at the end of the day, I know my child better than an expert does, and I probably should have trusted my own instinct. And that's one of the things I did learn about the whole experience. I think the bonding came not from the story itself, but from the fact that we were working on a movie together. And I could see. See him and his. I would think in the form that he could express himself the best, which is making movies, because he has so much experience. We didn't bond a lot as a kid. Like, he really liked baseball. I like basketball and he could watch that with my brother, but baseball.

[Ashley Merchant]

But I, I just.

[John Espilbor]

When I saw him do that and it was something that I'm interested in, I was like, wow, like, he really knows a lot. And like, it made me feel closer to him.

[Ashley Merchant]

It's heartbreaking seeing them both on the. On the screen knowing what happened. Both Rob and his wife Michelle died from stab wounds. And apparently when Nick was arrested, he went to a hotel. He went to a nearby hotel. He fled the murder. Murder scene. And he was found covered in blood. The people at the Santa Monica Hotel, said that he checked in and they didn't notice anything. It was just hours after this bitter match had been witnessed. But they didn't see any drugs. They didn't see any, any, you know, anything where he had blood on him or anything like that. But then the hotel scene was. The shower was full of blood. There were blood stains on the bed. The windows have been covered with bed sheets.

[John Espilbor]

And he's reported debate about who did this. You know, I hesitate to say this, but it came from a. Someone who I consider to be a reliable source. And what I was told was that Nick's sister, Rob Reiner's daughter, when she. Yes, this was the scenario that was laid out to me yesterday. That the Reiners were supposed to get a massage and that the massage therapist rang the bell and couldn't get in on Sunday afternoon and called the daughter Rami and said, you know, your parents aren't answering the door. And they, they set up this appointment. She went there and supposedly the mom was still alive when they got there, and then she expired in the care of the ambulance workers. But there was an indication that she identified her son Nick as the person who did this, that Rob Reiner was deceased when his daughter got there, but that the mom was alive and that she identified her son as the assailant. And again, I don't think there's going to be. I know what a great lawyer y is, but I don't think there's going to be any issue about who did this. I think it's going to be about how much, you know, how much time he's incarcerated for if. Or if he ever sees the light.

[Jonas Spilbore]

Of day or whether he's got a mental defense.

[Ashley Merchant]

Yeah, that's one of the things I wanted to talk about. I mean, I know in California they, they don't have diminished capacity. And you know, for our viewers, diminished capacity is really where you. It's not a full insanity defense, but it's. You're diminished. You know, you don't. You have to have an intent to commit a crime. And if you were on drugs or alcohol or you had a mental issue going on, you could have a diminished capacity to actually formulate that intent. But California doesn't have that. They've got insanity, but they don't have diminished capacity. So, John, what, what, I mean, if you were defending him, what would be your primary theory of the case?

[Jonas Spilbore]

Well, first of all, when you have a child who kills their parents in such an intimate way, and I don't mean that in any sexual way. I mean, he had to be up close and personal and stab them. We don't know how many stab wounds. We don't know whether it's the throat slash. We don't know what that is. And two parents, we were kind of talking off the air that where were they logistically? Because if you're killing both parents in such a hand to hand way where you have to be physically close to them to inflict death, or is one parent in a separate room and the other parent doesn't hear what's going on and then rushes in. Were they both in bed sleeping? Were they in the same bed sleeping? We don't know exactly how he pulled this off, but he had to be in such a state of mind that, that he wasn't acting like he was not in the same state of mind as he was in the clip that we just showed where he's having a conversation about a film he made with his father. Something else was really wrong. Also, we heard and Arthur, maybe your source told, told you this. The party, I think was Saturday night. There was some sort of verbal argument Saturday night that made other people at the party uncomfortable. When did they die? If the massage therapist comes over Sunday. Were they killed Saturday night? Were they killed Sunday morning? We need answers to these questions. But he's going to, he's going to have some sort of mental defense.

[John Espilbor]

The point that actually the part from a very sentimental point of view is, you know, the irony, if that's the right word, of Rob Reiner, whose father Carl and he were like this unbelievable relationship. And then you have Rob Reiner who's trying. And you played that sot. He's trying to have this unreleased, unbelievable relationship with his own son who turns out to be his executioner. And you know, yesterday I was doing my radio show. So I do this radio show from New York every night from 6 to 7. And obviously this was on the front of my mind for many, many reasons. And I played the clip in all of the family. You know, Rob Reiner is the clip of Rob Reiner saying no matter how many movies I direct, no matter how many Academy Awards I win, he goes, if I won the Nobel Peace Prize, it would still say Meathead won the Nobel Peace Prize because that's just how those of us a certain age know him. And I played the clip of the final show where he is leaving. He and Gloria and little baby Joey are leaving to go to California. And the poignant moment between Mike Stivic and Archie Bunker. So Rob Reiner And Carol o' Connor and where Mike Stivic is really manning up and saying, you know, I know we always didn't get along, but we did have some good, some good times. And I'm going to miss you and Arch, I love you. And he hugged him and Archie doesn't know what to do and eventually puts his hand on the back and he says, you just take care of my babies. And he said, you'll never have to worry about that. I mean, what a tear jerking thing. I mean, I broke down on the radio just listening to it and processing it. Especially after the weekend with the Brown case that we just discussed and Bondi beach in Australia. And you know, you have such a.

[Jonas Spilbore]

Wonderful relationship with your own father.

[John Espilbor]

I do. And all the family. Thank you for acknowledging that, John. And of course I followed in my father's footsteps the way, the way Rob Reiner followed in his father's footsteps and all in the family is something my dad and I really bonded over because it's such a timeless, it's a timeless show. But you know, when you see the two protagonists of a show that was the number one show in America for five years and it aired for eight or nine and here they are finally hugging, hugging it out and you think about what's going on in the world and like, we need some more of that hugging it out on, on all levels. Obviously, families that are torn apart by this, obviously the political horrors that took place in Brown because it seems like that was a politically motivated thing, the anti Semitism in Australia, you know, it's that moment between Rob Reiner and Carol o'. Connor. You know, we need to capture that love and affection. Even though it was a little reluctant on Archie's part, he then accepted it. We need some more of that in the world.

[Ashley Merchant]

You know, that, that really, I was thinking about this earlier and that kind of ties into it with Marcy's Law. And I don't know if our viewers know Marcy's Law is really the crime victims bill of rights. And when I think about these intimate family killings, you know, what would the parents want? Because what Marcy's Law says is that if you're a crime victim, you get a right, you have a right to a say in what happens in a case. And you know, I hear that, that Nick has hired Alan Jackson. I can't help but think there was a family member involved in, you know, facilitating that. We've got a, you know, you've got a sister still alive, you've got family members still alive. What are they going to want to see happen in this case and how do they navigate that? You know, you've got, I mean, think about his sister. His sister, it's the brother you killed, the parents, you know, does she want, what is justice for her? And I think that's a really complicated question in these types of cases. And that's one of the reasons that, that Marcy's law was enacted and it actually came out of California, you know, Marcy's law, so that they could have a say, you know, or is society the one that's going to have a say? What, what happens in the justice system? Is it, do we want to prosecute him to the fullest extent of the law or are we going to give the family a say? I mean, you know, that's, I think the big question because it sounds like from your memories, Arthur, that Rob loved his son. I mean, obviously loved his son. And so I can't help but think maybe he wouldn't want him prosecuted to the fullest extent. Maybe he would want him to get some, some treatment, if that's possible. I don't know.

[John Espilbor]

It's also Tracy, who Rob Reiner adopted from his previous marriage. So, you know, there's, yes, there are a lot of family members here and it is, look, and you said at this time of the year as well, Ashley, it's like, it's just, it's just here's your, your heart, you know, your heartstrings. It turns at your heartstrings and what do you say, like, oh, yeah, do me a favor. I lost my mother and father and let's make sure I never see my brother again as well. Like.

[Ashley Merchant]

Right.

[John Espilbor]

It's a hard thing to say.

[Jonas Spilbore]

You guys have bigger hearts than me because if a family member killed my parents, I, I'd want revenge, I wouldn't even want justice. I would want revenge and nothing would, would take me off that point.

[Ashley Merchant]

So I don't know, I think if you, if you saw, like, if you'd grown up with him and you saw the suffering, I mean, you know, we know most people who are using drugs, they're self medicating. So, you know, you can kind of jump to that conclusion that he's probably self medicating for something going on, I think it would be hard to see that and then know that this is not who he is every day and still want him locked up. And I mean, unfortunately, our system doesn't really have a good solution. We don't have any mental health options. You know, we have jail or not jail, there's not any good options we've got.

[John Espilbor]

You know, folks should know when people like, oh, is he going to take to get the, I'm speaking in generalities, but is he going to get the insanity defense? Is he going to get off and get the insanity defense? Statistically speaking, when you, you get found not guilty by reason of mental disease, a defect, you wind up being incarcerated longer than if you get sentenced to prison and you're eligible for parole in a certain amount of time because there are doctors that have to approve you going back out into society. And they are very reluctant to do so because if they allow you to go back out into society and you commit another horrendous crime, they're on the COVID of the newspaper, it's on their conscience. So it's not like, you know, any kind of insanity defense and that successful is some sort of, you know, get out of jail free card.

[Ashley Merchant]

Right. And when you have, you know, drug abuse, it really gets complicated. I know whenever I've had clients evaluated, most of the doctors say, well, I don't know where the drugs stopped and the mental defect, as they call it, began. You know, was it the drugs? Was it the what's going on organically? Which one was it? And I know that's, you know, California. That's one of the issues, why they got rid of that, you know, why they got rid of diminished capacity. So it's a sad situation, but we'll definitely be watching it. Next, we'll share what led to a college football coach's firing and his bizarre criminal behavior. And reminder, we want to hear from you. Email your comments and story, suggestions and questions to mktruecrimelmaycaremedia.com we'll be right back.

[Megyn Kelly]

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[Megyn Kelly (Sponsor/Ad segments)]

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[Ashley Merchant]

Welcome back to MK True Crime. A verdict was delivered in the Brian Walsh murder trial on Monday. We'll bring you the updates, but first we have to talk about Sharon Moore. Sharon is a now fired University of Michigan football coach. He was fired for an inappropriate relationship with a staff member. But what happened next is what's Interesting. Shortly after he was fired, Moore is accused of forcibly entering the apartment of his affair partner. When he then threatened to harm himself with butter knives and scissors. He faces third degree felony home invasion, misdemeanor stalking, and misdemeanor breaking and entering. So what do we think about this? I also read something and I know, John, we were talking about this off air a little bit, that his wife, which, you know, when you hear the story of him, you think, oh, wait, wait, a wife. That his wife was also very worried about his mental health. And I'm thinking to myself, you know, I would be worried about his actual physical health if I was his wife.

[Jonas Spilbore]

No, he should be worried about his actual physical health.

[Ashley Merchant]

Yeah.

[Jonas Spilbore]

From his wife. Yeah.

[John Espilbor]

You know, Arena, Bobbitt style. Is that what you guys going? You guys going? John. It wants revenge on everyone, so who knows?

[Jonas Spilbore]

No, it's all up for grabs. Not on everyone. But can I. This, this guy. I got nothing good to say about this guy. Starting with the fact that he's a cheater, obviously. Okay. Second, you break up with your subordinate and then you act like. Like some wimp and you go all crazy and you're going to try to kill yourself with butter knives and what else? Popsicle sticks. And then you can't. You got to go to it. Like, the good news for him, this criminal case will probably be resolved for a slap on the wrist because he's just acting like a jilted lover, pansy ass wimp of a guy, which is such a turn off as it is. But, you know, get a life, buddy. Come on, find your balls. Where are his balls?

[Ashley Merchant]

So he's a football coach too?

[John Espilbor]

Well, so here. So here's the deal. The pressure of his job is enormous. I mean, I know he's getting paid an enormous salary.

[Ashley Merchant]

It was like a 2.

[Jonas Spilbore]

How much was his. Does anybody know his contract price? Because I heard it was in the millions.

[John Espilbor]

I think it was 6 million. I think it was 6 million a year, something like that. For three years. But you understand these, Shawna, where you and I live, it's not a college atmosphere.

[Ashley Merchant]

I was about to say it's.

[John Espilbor]

Ashley lives in a college atmosphere.

[Ashley Merchant]

We can people. I mean, University of Florida. It's like we just fired our coach a month ago because he wasn't winning. There's a lot of pressure.

[John Espilbor]

It's all they live for. You know, we have professional teams and a lot of parts they, you know, they don't. And even their professional teams are not the New York Yankees and you know, disrespect anyone. But they are the greatest. They've won more world championships than anybody. And these Michigan people are. Daisy, I have a lawyer who works with me. All he does is wear a Michigan hat. Every day, all day, 24, 365, he's wearing a Michigan hat. So there's that part of the mental breakdown that he must have had somewhere along the line, feeling that pressure. Then he fell in love, and he's acting like an absolute mope. But, John, I don't know about that jurisdiction, but I will tell you, here in the city of New York, they're taking stalking really seriously. It's not just a walk in the park anymore because it's. They're looking at it as the precursor to the violence. So the Brown case, right, we're talking about, you see that guy stalking outside, walking back and forth, you know, that's the precursor to the violence. So it's no longer. You go in and you get an adjournment in contemplation of dismissal. And as long as you don't get in trouble for six months, it's gone. They usually keep these cases going on, and they want to monitor you and they want to make sure you're not doing anything else. And so. And you guys know, a case of this magnitude in the media, they're not just going to say, okay, thanks a lot. I mean, they published that picture of the guy in handcuffs in the little cage or wherever he's in. But I don't see this case disappearing with it so quickly without a big mental health component to it.

[Jonas Spilbore]

Oh, yeah, he always had minor bail. No, he's just acting like a jilt. He's acting like a teenager, right, who just. Who wanted to go to promote. And, you know, the chick he wanted to take went with somebody else, like, grow the up, you know?

[Ashley Merchant]

And I can't help but wonder if both of them. I mean, he gets fired, she doesn't get fired. And I know, Johnny, you'll probably argue with me on this, but it doesn't make sense. Why is she not getting fired? Also? So she got. And I. This statistic really, really incensed me. So she's working there, they start this relationship, and then all of a sudden she gets a 55% salary bump with her annual pay jumping from 58,000 to $90,000 last year. So she is enjoying the benefits of this relationship. She breaks up with him, which is obviously she's allowed to do, and she shouldn't have become a crime victim because of that. So I'm certainly Not saying that, but only he's fired, she's not. And what did the university say? Let's see. The university said that it was because he was in a position of power. So he was her supervisor and so that's why he was canned, but she wasn't. But both of them lied about their relationship and that's what really violated the university politics policy. So why is she not out too?

[Jonas Spilbore]

Because here's what's going to come next. She's going to file her sex harassment lawsuit and she's going to make millions and millions and millions from the college. That's what she's going to do. And they didn't fire her because they're afraid to fire her because that's coming next. Arthur, back me up here.

[John Espilbor]

Now, I would put it this way. A lot of lawyers were involved in making that decision. I think John is probably right. I think they're probably protecting their proverbial the backside from a lawsuit here and that, you know, that the university should have protected her from the coach. And now her name is out there and it's destroyed and it's going to affect her finances for the, you know, the next 75 years of her life expectancy. So, yeah, they will be. There ostensibly will be a lawsuit.

[Jonas Spilbore]

Golden ticket.

[John Espilbor]

They said five. They said firing her will only make it worse. So, I mean, they probably seriously checked in with their insurance company. What do you want us to do? Do you want us to keep her? You want us to fire her? But, you know, is it really that fair? I mean, it does take two to tango.

[Ashley Merchant]

Takes two to tango. I mean, yeah, that's the thing. And so, so she's just a little bit more about her. So her name is Paige Shiver. We believe she's a 32 year old and she, like I said, had been recently promoted, but she started working there in 2022, had worked her way up. She was actually his assistant. Assistant. So his personal assistant. And then they had an intimate relationship and it sounds like she dumped him, you know, and there's a lot of texts going back and forth and he just lost his marbles, as you said. So I think we'll. I think we. I think you both are right. I think we're going to see a lawsuit and we're going to have a lot more to talk about this. You know, there were a lot of rumors about it, apparently about his extracurricular activities. It sounds like he was just so mad in love that he couldn't even think straight.

[John Espilbor]

I mean, his life is ruined as well. I mean, you know, I mean, where. Where is she gonna go? You know, where's he going now? You know, it used to be when we were kids, right? It was. Today's newspaper is tomorrow's fish wrappers.

[Ashley Merchant]

Right?

[John Espilbor]

But that's not. You know, unless you were going to go to the library and go on microfiche. Remember what that was? And you'd have to go look at.

[Ashley Merchant]

Oh, my God. Yes, they do. We're showing our ages.

[John Espilbor]

But now if our famous coach literally goes to Home Depot to go get a job, they're going to put his name in, as they always do, just into the regular machine, into the Google, and this will come up, and they'll be like, oh, we're sorry, sir. We can't have someone with your mental instability here. So he has major problems going forward. Unless there's someone out there, a former coach of his or who's just going to quietly take them under his wing, under their wing and say, okay, you know, we're going to quietly employ you because he's a young man.

[Ashley Merchant]

Right?

[John Espilbor]

You know, and I don't know, you know, you get those contracts, trust me, I've represented these types of people, and on the civil side, and you think it's a gravy train that goes on and on and on, and you forget to. To save for a rainy day. Well, for my man, it is a. It's not raining. It's not pouring. It's a hurricane, a tornado and the perfect storm all together. And God knows what is perfect, what his life is like at home. Because if he's married to Johnny Spielberg, Lorena Bobbitt's in the room.

[Jonas Spilbore]

We need to see the text.

[John Espilbor]

We need.

[Jonas Spilbore]

Oh, my God.

[Ashley Merchant]

I know, but I'd love to see Arthur cross examine this lady. You know, if you. If you defended him, Arthur. And you've got her on the stand, You've got Paige on the stand. What would you like to ask her?

[John Espilbor]

Well, I mean, again, what John is. Point is, you know, he's charged with stalking, so it probably has a lot less to do with her and than him. Like, where are you? Why are you there? What reason do you have to be there? Of course, you, you know, you try to make her look like. Look, this was the two of you together. It was a real relationship. You loved him, he loved you. You guys, you know, had a very tumultuous but loving and caring love affair. Right? Isn't.

[Megyn Kelly (Sponsor/Ad segments)]

What.

[John Espilbor]

Is it fair to characterize it as a love affair? And, you know, she's never as far as we know right this second, he's not charging him with any type of sexual assault or anything like that. And just build it up to like, look, this is a boyfriend, girlfriend. Like Jonah said, he's acting like a 15 year old. Not too many deaths are caused with a butter knife, right?

[Ashley Merchant]

I was like, come on, you're a football coach. Like a butter knife, really.

[John Espilbor]

So you know, but we, you know, look, we'll. We will see again where this winds up. But it's another one. This girl's name, you know, I'm talking about the coach trying to get a job. This young lady, right?

[Ashley Merchant]

Oh, I know.

[John Espilbor]

She, she's, you know, in the. She won't need the book of Monica Lewinsky's of the world. Right. The names. Right.

[Ashley Merchant]

Thank you.

[Jonas Spilbore]

She'll stand up. She made purses. But here's the, here's my prediction. I'm going to go on record with the prediction. Here's what happened when we get the text messages, she said to him, this is just my prediction. Leave your wife or I'm leaving you. And then he went, oh, can't do that, because then I can have my cake and eat it too. I can't do that. I can't do that. And then he got crazy. And then she called the police and that's why we are here. And again, he needs to find his balls. That's all I'm gonna say.

[Ashley Merchant]

Or she gets a raise. And then she says, see ya. Yeah, hopefully we'll get this text soon.

[John Espilbor]

You know, the thing is this. I have no problem telling you. You're like, I met my wife at work. Like, people have these romances at work, at the office. It's. That's nothing new. As a matter of fact, there was an article very recently, like this weekend, it may have been in the New York Times talking about how and John is going to love the second piece of the two things that are ruining young people. Remote work. So you're sitting home, not meeting with everyone. Are you ready, Jonah? Yep. Alcohol. Abstinence.

[Ashley Merchant]

Yeah.

[John Espilbor]

All these young, 20 years old. I'm not drinking. Right, Exactly.

[Megyn Kelly (Sponsor/Ad segments)]

I don't drink.

[John Espilbor]

I don't drink. I don't drink. And the guy who's. I think one person wrote an article, one. I saw a feed somewhere online saying, like, alcohol, like, you know, lets you kind of say, hi, how you doing?

[Ashley Merchant]

Birth rate's gonna go down. Birth rate.

[John Espilbor]

Tell me your name, I'll buy you a drink. What do you want to do?

[Jonas Spilbore]

These are.

[John Espilbor]

These are correlated too.

[Ashley Merchant]

These are correlated. They're not in person, they're not drinking, and the birth rate's going down. It is definitely correlated.

[Jonas Spilbore]

We're gonna go extinct thanks to Gen Z.

[John Espilbor]

Well, there's. Listen there. There is a part of us, especially in my hometown in Italy, they're having like one kid, a family, and if you. If you extrapolate it out through an actuary like Italy, as we know, it'll be gone and not that long from now because they're just not procreating and they are drinking. Allegedly.

[Ashley Merchant]

Well, at the time of this filming, Brian Walsh has been convicted but not sentenced. But tomorrow, when this is airing, he will be sentenced. So just to catch everyone up quickly, jury found him guilty of killing and dismembering his wife. But this is what was kind of crazy to me. So he actually pled guilty to improperly disposing of her body and lying to the police. But he goes to trial in the murder. Not exactly a case I would want to be arguing to a jury. My client just admitted to lying to the police and getting rid of a body, but he didn't do it. Not a really fun position, but I thought it was interesting. And we can hear Sat three in just a minute. But I thought it was really, really interesting that the lawyer said that he disposed her body in a panic. It's like you could have come up with something better. So before we close out, can we listen to Sat 3 where the jury delivers the guilty verdict.

[John Espilbor]

Mr. Poor Person. In the matter of the Commonwealth vs.

[Ashley Merchant]

Brian Walsh, Norfolk Superior Court, criminal indictment number 2023 0091.

[Jonas Spilbore]

As to count one, wherein the defendant.

[Ashley Merchant]

Brian Walsh is charged with murder in the first degree. What say the jury? Is the defendant guilty or not guilty? Guilty.

[John Espilbor]

Guilty. Guilty of what, sir? Murder in the first degree.

[Ashley Merchant]

Murder in the first degree. So say you, Mr. Ford Person?

[John Espilbor]

I do.

[Ashley Merchant]

Guilty of murder in the first degree. So say all. Deliberating yours?

[John Espilbor]

I do.

[Ashley Merchant]

So I'd just like to say that that is the. Either the best moment in your career or the worst moment in your career.

[John Espilbor]

Oh, yeah.

[Ashley Merchant]

But every time I listen to a jury verdict being rendered, I have ptsd.

[John Espilbor]

And I'm sure I do, too. My stomach is, like turning. How can you not? Oh, my God. Yeah.

[Jonas Spilbore]

Not in this case. His defense attorney was not surprised. He had a legal theory that made absolutely no sense. Nobody is in shock here.

[Ashley Merchant]

Nobody shocked. But it's still.

[John Espilbor]

Nobody.

[Jonas Spilbore]

Still stinks.

[John Espilbor]

But it still stinks. Even though you're like, I don't think I got a chance. There's always that Part of your ego that you're like, well, maybe, or maybe I get a hung jury. Or maybe, maybe, maybe. Johnny, you gotta have hope. Like today, six hours, I like today, I hoped you were gonna wear glasses, and I wasn't. And then I come on screen and I decide for the first time ever not to wear glasses. And there you go, ruining the whole glasses bit.

[Ashley Merchant]

I think we do it to ourself, actually, with the verdict. Like, I will, I will believe my argument and my client and my defense so much. Right? You, I mean, you literally, you're. You're part of it. And then you're waiting for that verdict and you're like, did I just mess with my mind? But anyway, I just, I like to play the verdict.

[Jonas Spilbore]

Wait, let me say, can I just say one thing on that? The first. First big felony criminal trial that I lost. And you know, there have been a few, but the very first one, I was upset over it, obviously, because I thought I had a good defense. You know, the ego, all of it. And the judge looked at me after my client was sentenced to 15 years in prison. He looked at me and he said, counsel, you can't make chicken salad out of chicken shit.

[Ashley Merchant]

And that's actually, that's funny. That was actually one of my best compliments ever. I had a jury tell me that I was really good at making chicken scratch out of chicken. And I will never forget that.

[Jonas Spilbore]

It fits. It fits. That's our job.

[Ashley Merchant]

Like, our job. We should put that on our. On our websites.

[Jonas Spilbore]

But when we get merch, we'll put it on a T shirt and a couple of mugs.

[Ashley Merchant]

That'd be awesome. All right, well, stay tuned. Next we've got your questions and we've got our closing arguments. Stay tuned. Save over $200 when you book weekly stays with VRBO this winter. If you need to work, why not.

[Jonas Spilbore]

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[Ashley Merchant]

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[Megyn Kelly]

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[Megyn Kelly (Sponsor/Ad segments)]

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[Ashley Merchant]

We'll get to your questions and our closing arguments. But first, did you know that you can listen to MK True Crime on the Megyn Kelly Channel on Sirius XM as part of Megan's podcast playlist, MK True Cross Crime will air Tuesday at 10am and Saturdays at 9am and 10am on Sirius XM channel 111. So we have a question from a listener named Selena. Selena asks, is there a past or present case you wish you could have served as counsel on? If so, which case and why? So let's see. I'll start with Arthur because I'm going to go ladies first on our rant.

[John Espilbor]

Oh yeah, you should. Because.

[Jonas Spilbore]

Because Arthur wants to take a nap during mine.

[John Espilbor]

Yeah, we all know what's coming there, so I'M gonna go. I'll go past and present, past the Casey Anthony trial. I think there was so many ins and outs and ups and downs and mysteries. And, you know, I just think that that was a mental exercise. And, you know, at the time, I was the one of the lead analysts on the Fox News Channel, and everyone was just ripping Jose Baez apart. Oh, you're horrible. You didn't know. He doesn't know what he's doing. And I was saying, I don't know. Seems like he's doing okay to me, and I don't know what he knows. And he may be asking questions because he know he has information that we don't know about. And. And when that verdict came in and she was acquitted, I was like, and Jose and I are now friends. We were not friends before that, but we are now in terms of present cases. And I was in the running for it. Maybe my fee was a little too high, but I would like to have handled, which is pending right now, President Trump's appeal, not his trial. I mean, I would have loved to have done this trial as well, but his appeal in his criminal conviction here in New York City, because they basically made up a lot of laws, they created a lot of laws. They went after him for things that never existed before, that they've never prosecuted before. They were very, very, very creative in their appellate. I'm sorry, in their legal analysis and their legal strategy. And I was able to speak to the president about it, about representing him. He happened to go with a tiny little firm called Sullivan and Cromwell. For those of you who don't know, it's one of the biggest firms in the United States of America. But there are such real rich legal issues there that need to be challenged. And the Democratic, almost all Democratic Appellate Division and Court of Appeals, those are the two appellate courts in New York State. You know, I want to see them doing the right thing here and saying, you know, we don't care that there was a target on his back. The law is the law, no matter who you are, if you're Harvey Weinstein or Donald Trump, and we're going to adhere the law equally to everybody.

[Ashley Merchant]

What about you, John?

[Jonas Spilbore]

I have to say I would have loved to represent Donald Trump in any of his trials, but especially the one that was in Manhattan Criminal Court for sure, for all the same. Like, that was just totally made up. And I would have loved to have mopped the floor with all of the state's witnesses and that one Michael Cohen and everybody else, because that just gives me Sheer pleasure. I once had a witness on the stand that I cross examinated. Cross examinated. Cross examined. Who actually was so nervous and upset by it that she threw up. And to me, that was like winning an award. And then the second one I think I would have done is the Johnny Depp case. Man, that was. Oh, yes.

[Ashley Merchant]

Oh, my God. Yes.

[John Espilbor]

Yes.

[Jonas Spilbore]

That was a new criminal.

[Ashley Merchant]

I'm with you on that. I definitely think the Johnny Depp case. Definitely. And I love the appeal, too. I just like to cross examine so much. So, you know, anything where I get to cross examine people, that's. That's my favorite thing.

[Megyn Kelly (Sponsor/Ad segments)]

Yeah, sure.

[John Espilbor]

Your husband's thrilled about that. I'm sure. Oh, he loves every single day. Yeah.

[Ashley Merchant]

Where have you been? He loves it. He loves it. My kids love it. I mean, it's great. It's, you know, it's the life. You live with me. If you live with me, you'd get cross examined. My kids, my dogs get cross examined. Salmon, why? Did you pee in the wrong place? Yeah, no, both of those are great cases, definitely. So we're gonna do ladies first with our rants. Johnny, you get to go first.

[Jonas Spilbore]

All right, so we're gonna do my rant. This is where Arthur checks out, because my rants, which are only supposed to be a minute long, turn out to be like, three or four today. It might be closer to six or seven, but this is. This is relevant. Yeah, Arthur. Six, seven.

[Ashley Merchant]

Wait, six, seven. Have you heard?

[John Espilbor]

Six, seven.

[Jonas Spilbore]

Go check. Go check your email. But this is relevant to something that our own Megyn Kelly had actually broke. And a couple of weeks ago, our own Megyn Kelly broke a story involving NYU student Amelia Lewis, who was randomly attacked by a career pervert while walking to class in broad daylight. The video of the assault, which has since gone viral, was a crucial piece of evidence that allowed authorities to quickly ascertain this douchebag's identity and apprehend him before he could attack again. Kudos to Amelia and her friend Summer, who, sadly, is also an assault victim, for having the presence of mind to get their hands on the video and the commitment to do society a favor by getting this guy off the street. This is indeed half the battle. I want to discuss the other half. Something that doesn't get talked about enough, but is as important as seeking justice in a court of law, and that is seeking justice within ourselves. A quick story. When I was about Amelia's age, I, too, was randomly attacked in public by two guys with a gun. I remember hearing quick footsteps closely behind me. And when I turned to see what the hubbub was about, I heard a male voice say words to the effect quote, we got you. And within a half a second, I was nose to nose with a gun. They say you never know what you'll do under the stress of a situation like that. Until it happens, will you fight, flee, or freeze? As these seem to be the three choices for which our brains are hardwired. In my case, though, I did something a little different. I looked at the man with the gun in my face and exclaimed, what the fuck do you think you're doing? At that point, a second attacker, wearing a big puffer jacket, grabbed me from behind in what I described to police as a bear hug, but was in truth, a chokehold. The good news is they didn't kill me. The bad news is they didn't just steal my purse. They stole my peace of mind, my sense of security, and a smidge of my dignity, too. I don't care how tough you are. When you are physically assaulted by another human being, even if your skin is unbroken, you will suffer an invisible wound that will change you. For better or worse is up to you. I handled getting assaulted at gunpoint with all the self care one would employ after getting a flat tire. Looking back, that was a mistake. You simply cannot survive something like that and act as if you stubbed a toe. Like, how was my day? Well, the cute guy in accounting asked me out, I got a promotion, stepped off the train and was attacked by two guys with a gun. And I'm really looking forward to the weekend. Please pass the saw if you want that which doesn't kill you. Literally. To truly make you stronger, you must heal the invisible wounds that will 100% accompany an event as world rocking as being physically assaulted. No judge or DA can do that for you. You need to do that shit yourself or these unresolved emotions will crash your party in weird ways at some point down life's road. Don't believe me? Then prepare to be karate chopped. If you happen to walk a little too closely behind me. Releasing my hyper vigilance as if it's a superpower is my way of making up for not being vigilant enough on that fateful Monday in February, four score and seven years ago. Obviously, I still have work to do. To Amelia and Summer and everyone else who has been or unfortunately will be a victim of a violent attack, know this. The wounds that change you most are the ones that do not bleed. Please do not ignore them. You guys still awake?

[John Espilbor]

That was very light Hearted and uplifting.

[Jonas Spilbore]

Merry Christmas.

[Ashley Merchant]

Merry Christmas. I met your girl. Great to go after that. Arthur.

[John Espilbor]

No. Well, that was actually excellent, John.

[Jonas Spilbore]

Thank you.

[John Espilbor]

I did not fall asleep. I listened intently and it ties in. You know, you have these beautiful scripted closing arguments. My closing arguments are usually done based off of an outline with Sharpie on a piece of paper. Tying in a little bit to what you're saying. I'm just going to go back to the Rob Reiner thing and his son. And, like, what caused this? There's two. Two things, really. It seems like it's a combination of mental illness and drug abuse, drug addiction. And, you know, to your point, a lot of times that is the. The drug use is. Is finding other wounds. And if you studied Rob Reiner, he said, you know, his father said to him, never said to him he was funny, never told him he was funny, and he wanted to be like his father, Rob Reiner did. And it wasn't until he was, I think, 16, and he finally gave his father a joke that his father used in one of his shows, and that gave him the acknowledgment. Rob Reiner gave him Rob Reiner the acknowledgment that, like, he was good. His dad, you know, said, okay, you're doing good in life. Something happened with Nick and his dad, and that then viral into drug usage. I know Nick has said, you know, my brother's the perfect brother, and I'm not. What do we do? You do the best you can. You use the best resources that you can. But there's no way to justify this. There's no way to physically process it, because I'm. I don't know these people. I met Rob Reiner once at the Friars Club. He was a doll to me, but I. I'm struggling processing it. So what do we do? President Trump yesterday talked about making fentanyl a drug of national destruction or something like that. Drugs, mental illness. No matter how much we advance in technology and how much AI there is, et cetera, these are issues that have plagued our society for quite some time now. Ronald Reagan and Nancy saying, just say no. We have to be vigilant. We have to keep going. We have to find answers, we have to find solutions. And not burying it and not pretending it's not there, is not the answer. And usually the answer is somewhere in the mix of desire, motivation, intelligence, logic, and love. And to the Reiner family, you know, we all give our heart and soul to you and the pain that you must be going through. And Rob and your bride May you rest in peace.

[Ashley Merchant]

Yeah, and I was afraid you were going to say exactly what I was about to say, because I'm actually about to talk about something really similar. And that was beautiful. And that is, it sort of leads right into to my rant on it. I went back and forth because I was thinking about the Reiner case and just how tragic it is and trying to grapple how to make sense of it. And then, you know, throw in a little bit of legal education in the process. And I thought about talking about Marcy's Law and crime victims bills of rights. But I really wanted to talk more about diminished capacity, which is kind of what you were just talking about. You know, how does drug use play into a mental health defense? And I think a lot of folks don't know that. If you take medication, which a lot of people who suffer from mental illness do, they self medicate. And so they're using these street drugs because it's very difficult to get the legal drugs. And maybe they don't like the side effects of the legal drugs. But in my experience, the line between the legal drugs and the illegal drugs is very, very thin. And the problem, what we do, and you know, I was, I was prepping for today and I was looking it up and in California got rid of this diminished capacity defense. The problem is, and a lot of folks don't know this, if you suffer from a mental illness and you voluntarily take medication, there goes your insanity defense, there goes your diminished capacity defense. You aren't eligible for any of that. So you actually could have suffered from a mental breakdown and committed a crime, but because you self medicated, you're not allowed to use that defense. And what do we do with people who are in that situation? We send them to prison. And you know, is that really what we need to be doing? We hear every day about health care, you know, healthcare. And I'm not getting in a political speech on healthcare, but we don't fund good medicine for mental health treatment and we end up with tragedies like this. And the more we ignore the problem, the more we're gonna end up with tragedies like this. And so I just kind of want everyone to think about what does accountability look in a case like this, you know, when mental illness is definitely central to the case. The parents did everything they could to help this child. They know that he needed help. Everybody knew that he needed help. You know, what does it look like now? And as we watch this case unfold, which I know we're going to, what what do we think? You know, is the criminal justice system handling this case the way that it should be? What are our goals? Is it punishment? Is it treatment? Is it public safety? What's our goal here? What would the family want? What would the parents who were just brutally murdered, what would they want for their son? So I think it really raises a lot of questions, and I think it makes us really take a deep look at how our justice system deals with mental illness, particularly when mental illness overlaps with drug abuse. So I just leave it on that and hope everybody has a good holiday. Thank you both for being here. I want to thank my fellow contributors John Espilbor and Arthur Adala. And thank you for joining us. I hope everyone has a wonderful week.

[Jonas Spilbore]

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[Ashley Merchant]

Telling everyone that is.

[Jonas Spilbore]

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