Rob Reiner Son's Alarming Court Appearance, “Burn Cage” Found in D4vd’s Home, and Hope for JonBenét Case

Summary

MK True Crime
Episode: Rob Reiner Son’s Alarming Court Appearance, “Burn Cage” Found in D4vd’s Home, and Hope for JonBenét Case
Hosts: Phil Holloway, Ashley Merchant, Dave Ehrenberg
Date: December 19, 2025

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Main Theme & Episode Overview

This end-of-year episode dives deep into three headline-making cases:

• The legal and mental health drama surrounding Nick Reiner, son of Hollywood legend Rob Reiner, accused of murdering his parents.
• New developments in the disturbing case of 14-year-old Celeste Rivas Hernandez, whose remains were found in singer D4vd’s Tesla—now with the revelation of a “burn cage.”
• Fresh hope for closure in the JonBenét Ramsey case, 29 years later, thanks to advances in DNA technology.

Throughout, the hosts provide legal analysis, behind-the-scenes insights, and personal perspectives.

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Detailed Breakdown & Key Insights

1. Nick Reiner’s Court Appearance & Double Murder Charges

[01:05–13:47]

Setting the Scene

• Phil Holloway introduces the case: Nick Reiner, son of Rob and Michelle Reiner, is charged with their double homicide—a high-profile, brutal crime involving a knife.
• Nick appeared in court in an anti-suicide smock and shackles, signaling concerns over his mental state.

Legal Strategy & Mental Competency

• Defense attorney Alan Jackson requests more time at the arraignment due to complex mental health aspects:

  “There are … complex and serious issues associated with this case … allow the system to move forward … not with a rush to judgment, but with restraint and dignity.”
  —Alan Jackson, defense attorney (via Phil, [03:34])

• Ashley Merchant explains likely motivations for delay:

  • Nick is on suicide watch, indicating acute mental health concerns.
  • Defense may need time to determine Nick’s competency to stand trial:

  “When you’ve got a client who is potentially not capable of assisting in their own defense … you actually have to choose for them. And so it’s just a greater amount of stress.”
  —Ashley Merchant ([04:59])

• Dave Ehrenberg contextualizes:

  • Requests for delay are typical when competence is questioned.
  • Mental illness and recent unusual behavior (e.g., at a Christmas party) may factor in.
  • If found incompetent, Nick could be sent to a mental hospital.

Insanity Defense vs. Competency

• Phil asks if strange pre-crime behavior points to psychosis or drug-induced break.

• Ashley outlines defense priorities—gathering fresh, accurate info on Nick’s mental state and drug use.

• Dave, from a prosecutor’s view, notes:

  • Insanity defenses are rarely successful.
  • Fleeing, hiding in a hotel after the murders undermines insanity claims (implies understanding of right and wrong):

  “It’s your actions after the fact that can easily disprove you didn’t know the difference between right and wrong.”
  —Dave Ehrenberg ([11:43])

  • As prosecutor, develop evidence to refute incompetence and watch for malingering (faking).

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2. Inheritance & Defense Funding: Legal and Ethical Quagmires

[17:40–23:58]

Can Nick Inherit? Who Pays His Lawyer?

• California’s “Slayer Statute” bars murderers from inheriting from victims.

• Unique wrinkle: Nick’s defense is being funded from his parents’ estate, via family/trust.

• Ashley empathizes with family funding quality defense:

  “I understand why they would want him to have a good defense lawyer … that’s the only way I could sleep at night and know that the truth came out.”
  —Ashley Merchant ([18:51])

• Dave notes strategic reasons:

  • Hiring a top defense lawyer like Alan Jackson could allow the family some influence—perhaps to avoid a “Menendez defense”-style trial that disparages their parents’ legacy:

  “You generally hire Alan Jackson… to do a high profile fight... perhaps to create a Menendez situation, which would be appalling… Maybe there is an incentive… because then they have a little bit of control.”
  —Dave Ehrenberg ([21:24])

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3. Prosecuting a Potential Death Penalty Case

[23:58–29:01]

• Nick Reiner faces “special circumstances” that qualify for the death penalty in California (double homicide, use of deadly weapon).
• Ashley notes:
  • At trial: guilt/innocence phase, then aggravation/mitigation phase (for the death penalty).
  • Mental health elements, drug use, or abuse history could be mitigation factors. Start gathering this immediately.
• Discussion of possible “Menendez defense” (abuse allegations), strategy for both sides:

  “You’ve got to look into any allegation and just disprove it... as a prosecutor, it would make me extra angry… if they try to victimize the victims yet again.”
  —Dave Ehrenberg ([26:48])

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4. Update: D4vd Case & the ‘Burn Cage’

[33:07–39:09]

Case Background

• Phil recaps: Decomposed remains of 14-year-old Celeste found in D4vd’s Tesla; no charges yet, but investigation is ongoing with grand jury and cooperating witnesses.
• A private investigator found an unopened “industrial burn cage” in D4vd’s high-end rental—capable of incineration at 1,600°F.

Legal Implications

• Dave calls it “real evidence”—but possibly not used by police yet because it wasn’t part of the original warrant.

  “There’s only really one reason why someone… would use that for. It’s like a scene from Ozark.”
  —Dave Ehrenberg ([35:16])

• Ashley (defense perspective): If there’s an innocent explanation, “there better be a really good reason” for having such a device.

  “This isn’t like a burn pit ... This is literally a device to cremate remains.”
  —Ashley Merchant ([36:48])

• Investigators likely building a circumstantial case from a trail of bizarre behaviors and evidence.

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5. Hope for JonBenét Ramsey: Cold Case Breakthroughs

[39:09–46:48]

Brief Recap

• JonBenét: 6-year-old beauty queen, murdered December 26, 1996, Boulder, CO.

Advances in DNA/Genealogy Tech

• Ashley details the transition from older (“blood, semen, saliva”) to “touch DNA” and genealogy databases (Ancestry, 23andMe).

• Law enforcement now pursuing leads via genetic genealogy:

  “Now take that a step further … we have all these people going into … genealogy databases and that’s where they’re trying to take this case.”
  —Ashley Merchant ([40:56])

• Dave highlights its parallels to the Idaho/Kohberger case, and explains why officials are secretive—so suspects and relatives don’t hide from DNA databases:

  “It’s a real chance that we could find a match that didn’t exist before … you don’t need all the stuff you needed before. You just need touch DNA and a relative.”
  —Dave Ehrenberg ([43:47])

• Phil plays sound from John Ramsey (JonBenét’s father), advocating for Othram Labs to use “investigative genetic genealogy,” estimating “70, 80% chance of getting an answer.”
  ([45:31]–[45:33])

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Notable Quotes & Moments

• On Defendants & Mental Illness:
  “I would bet that you both have had clients commit suicide. I’ve had three clients commit suicide. That’s a lot. And I will never forget any of that.”
  —Ashley Merchant ([08:23])

• On Prosecutors' Burden of Proof:
  “It’s your actions after the fact that can easily disprove that you didn’t know the difference between right and wrong.”
  —Dave Ehrenberg ([11:43])

• On the “Menendez Defense” Trap:
  “If they try to victimize the victims yet again, it would make me extra angry to dig in my heels and to demand serious punishment, life in prison, even the death penalty.”
  —Dave Ehrenberg ([26:48])

• On New DNA Techniques:
  “They’re really hoping that some of the advances in DNA, particularly with genealogy, is going to at least narrow down to a family member maybe so that they can … keep the case alive.”
  —Ashley Merchant ([40:56])

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Timestamps for Key Segments

| Time | Topic | |------------|-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------| | 01:05 | Opening; Reiner case intro & Nick’s arraignment | | 03:34 | Defense attorney Alan Jackson’s statement | | 04:59 | Mental health/competency discussion (Ashley) | | 06:40 | Dave Ehrenberg on standard arraignment procedures | | 11:43 | Prosecution strategy on insanity/competency (Dave) | | 18:49 | Funding defense with parents’ estate (Ashley, Dave) | | 23:58 | Death penalty implications, mitigation strategy (Ashley) | | 29:01 | Menendez “abuse defense” discussion; defense approach (Ashley, Dave) | | 33:07 | Transition to D4vd case; burn cage found | | 35:16 | Dave: “scene from Ozark” analogy | | 36:48 | Defense perspective on burn cage (Ashley) | | 39:09 | Phil: Ongoing investigation and potential for charges | | 40:56 | JonBenét Ramsey recap and DNA technology advances (Ashley) | | 43:47 | Dave: Genetic genealogy and solving cold cases | | 45:31 | John Ramsey (JonBenét’s father) on new investigative approaches | | 49:33 | Closing arguments: Ashley on Fani Willis’s Senate testimony — “that’s a dumbass…” | | 52:18 | Dave on hope and the human spirit after a year of tragedy | | 55:29 | Phil on “stealth jurors” and perils of jury selection in high-profile trials | | 59:20 | Episode closes with thanks and holiday wishes |

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Closing Arguments: Memorable Conclusions

1. Ashley Merchant: Rants on Georgia DA Fani Willis’s combative Senate testimony; criticizes her “dumbass question” remarks.

   “If you had looked at the indictment, you would clearly see that you yourself, Ms. Willis, had alleged that this crime started to occur before you took office. So there’s my rant.”
   ([49:33])

2. Dave Ehrenberg: Finds hope amidst tragedy, spotlights acts of heroism and bipartisan compassion (e.g., positive words about Rob Reiner by ideological rivals).

   “…Never lose faith that the power to heal this world is within us all.”
   ([52:18])

3. Phil Holloway: Warns about “stealth jurors” in high-profile cases—people who lie to get on juries to sway outcomes, undermining justice.

   “…They undermine the fundamental right to a fair and honest impartial jury as guaranteed by law…”
   ([55:29])

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Summary: Episode Takeaways

• Nick Reiner’s trial will hinge on mental competency, possible insanity, and defense funding dilemmas—a dramatic legal and ethical crucible.
• The D4vd/Celeste Hernandez case’s grim new evidence (burn cage) adds pressure and media scrutiny, but legal hurdles remain.
• There’s serious progress—and hope—for breakthoughs in the JonBenét Ramsey case with forensic genealogy, possibly bringing answers at last in 2026.
• The hosts close the year by advocating for legal rigor, compassion, and vigilance against systemic flaws—while looking ahead to more trial coverage in 2026.

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A compelling, nuanced episode rich with legal insight, expert commentary, and candid reflection—a must-listen (or read!) for true crime and justice system aficionados.

Transcript

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[Phil Holloway]

Welcome to MK True Crimes. I'm Phil Holloway, your host today. I'm a criminal lawyer, I'm a former police officer and I've been in and around the justice system for the better part of 40 years now. And I think I know a great true crime show when I see one. And today being our last show of 2025, we've got a great one in store. Here's what's on the MK True Crime docket today. We start of course with Nick Reiner, the son of Hollywood legend Rob Reiner, who appeared in court this week in a California courtroom wearing an anti suicide smock and shackles. He's charged with the brutal double murders of his parents, Rob and Michelle. What will his defense be? We will bring you the latest. Also. Also in California, we've got a burn cage reported to have been found inside the singer David's rental home. Will discuss how this could be relevant to the ongoing investigation into the death of the teen found brutally murdered in David's Tesla. And this Holiday season marks 29 years, if you can believe it. Since JonBenet Ramsey was found strangled in her Colorado home. There may be finally some answers on the identity of her killer in this coming new year. We'll bring you all the updates today. I'm very pleased to be joined by my fellow MK True Crime contributors and my Friends and colleagues, Ashley Merchant, criminal lawyer in Atlanta, Georgia, and Dave Ehrenberg, also known as the Florida lawman, former state attorney for Palm Beach County, Florida, and managing partner at Dave Aronberg Law. Welcome, guys. And of course, we're going to have to start with Nick Reiner. I know everybody's been talking about this. We've been following it. We've been talking about it offline a little bit. Let me just give you the readout and then we're going to discuss it. As I mentioned in the intro, Nick Reiner has officially been charged with two counts of murder with special circumstances because it's a double homicide and also because he's alleged to have used a dangerous weapon, specifically a knife. And under California law, that would of course qualify him, should they seek it for the death penalty. His first appearance in the courtroom on Wednesday was what we call an arraignment, but they didn't finish. They continued it until later because his lawyer says it's a complicated issue and he needs just a little bit more time. We actually have some of that on video. Here is SOT1 of defense lawyer Alan Jackson on Wednesday, and then we're going to discuss it after the site.

[Dave Ehrenberg]

This is a devastating tragedy that has befallen the Reiner family. We all recognize that our hearts go out to the entire Reiner family. They're a very, very complex and serious issues that are associated with this case. Those need to be thoroughly but very carefully dealt with and examined and looked at and analyzed. We ask that during this process, you allow the system to move forward in the way that it was designed to move forward. Not with a rush to judgment, not with jumping to conclusions, but with restraint and with dignity and with the respect that this system and this process deserves and that the family deserves.

[Phil Holloway]

All right, Ashley, we'll start with you. Ladies first. So this is an arraignment. Now, you and I being in Georgia, Dave, of course, is in Florida, and this is all taking place in California. And every state has different rules, different practices, different ways of doing things. But look, an arraignment, right, it's like a first appearance. It's towards the beginning, and there's not a lot substantively that happens. It's usually a formal entry of a not guilty plea. Ashley, can you see any advantage to sort of delaying the arraignment in this case? And why didn't he just go ahead and say, we're going to plead not guilty?

[Ashley Merchant]

You know, I don't really see an advantage to doing it. But my guess reading between the lines and knowing a little bit about the case is that he's having some problems with the health of his client. I mean, you saw him. You know, we've seen a photo where he's actually appearing in what's a suicide garb, you know, from. They call it like a suicide dress from the jail, so indicating he was on suicide watch. You know, his clients on suicide watch. Just some of the things that he said about it being such a difficult case and there being so many complex issues that signaled to me as a defense lawyer that there's some mental health issues. And it is very difficult when you've got a client who is potentially not capable of assisting in their own defense. You know, this was a very violent crime. I mean, it was a. It was a crime that happened by the man's hands, you know, actually putting a knife into his family. You've got to assume that there's some serious issues there. And so I think the lawyer was smart about just wanting to get a grip on what all of those issues were before he actually does anything. Because when, you know, when you have a client that's not mentally ill, you can actually ask them, hey, can you tell me what you want to do in this situation? The problem when you have a client who's suffering from such an extreme mental illness that they may not be able to assist you is that you, as the lawyer, have a greater burden because you're not just giving advice and letting them choose. You're also in a position where oftentimes you actually have to. To choose for them. And so it's just a greater amount of stress. And I think that's probably why Alan was wanting a little bit more time to try and figure out what was going on here.

[Phil Holloway]

You know, I think that sounds right. Dave in Florida, you know, is there a lot that happens at an arraignment? Would it be standard or typical in your jurisdiction to waive an arraignment or to delay an arraignment, as we saw here?

[Dave Ehrenberg]

Well, this is such an unusual case, and so it is not that unusual to ask for more time because you're dealing with a competency issue. The issue here is not guilty or not guilty. It's whether he can assist, meaning the defendant in his own defense, whether he understands the proceedings before him. And I think that's where Alan Jackson is going, and that's going to be key. This is different than an insanity offense that's down the road. That's whether you're guilty or not guilty. This doesn't this is just a threshold question of whether or not you can appreciate the proceedings before you. And if you can't, then you get sent to a mental hospital. So what we're seeing here is out of the ordinary, but it is expected in a case like this that's very high profile, where you have serious mental health issues that could play a big part in the case.

[Phil Holloway]

You know, Ashley, apparently this all happened within a day or so of the, I guess the three of them, the family, if you will, the son and the parents at a Christmas party. And as it's been reported, there was some very bizarre behavior exhibited by defendant Reiner in the day, you know, prior to the alleged murder. And so it begs the question, you know, could this be. Does it look like maybe there was some issue of a chemical induced, maybe psychotic break? If you're the defense lawyer, Ashley, are you looking at that kind of thing to decide, okay, am I going to set up a not guilty by reason of insanity defense? Or perhaps, you know, my client is permanently or temporarily unable to stand trial? Is that what's going on here?

[Ashley Merchant]

Oh, yeah, 100%. And I think it's important to sort of walk everyone through that, you know, what that really looks like as a defense lawyer when you're talking to your client, particularly right after something happened. That's when you want to get all the information. You want to get accurate information, and you want to get it when it's fresh in your client's mind. And so he's probably trying to gather all of that information. Where it's really compounded is when the client has been using drugs. Maybe they're suffering from withdrawals. Maybe he was in a psychotic episode. Maybe he was manic, Maybe he was psychotic. Who knows what was happening if he was manic. Maybe he's now in a depressive low. You know, we know that he was on suicide watch. So I think there's a lot of different things that's going on right now with this. With this case and with this client. And I think Mr. Jackson is probably trying to get as much information as he can so he can get the right experts to do evaluations. He can make sure that his client's safe, because, you know, that's a big burden for us as defense lawyers. You've got a client who is suffering from mental illness. They're in custody. Clients commit suicide all the time in custody. I mean, I would bet that you both have had clients commit suicide. I've had three clients commit suicide. That's a lot. I mean, it's a lot. And I will never forget any of that. And, you know, so it's not lost on me. But I think what he's probably doing is trying to develop evidence to figure out where he wants to go with the case. Is it competency? And I know Dave mentioned, you know, competency. What is that? What does that look like? You have to actually be competent to assist your attorney. And what does that mean? That means you've got to be able to answer questions, you've got to be able to make decisions. You know, I give guidance to clients, but I can't make every decision for them. They have to decide, for example, if they want to enter a guilty plea or they want to plead not guilty. That is really what arraignment is for. It's to enter a guilty or a not guilty plea and to make sure that you've got a lawyer. So, you know, you never know if, if this, this, this kid was saying, alan, I want to plead guilty, I want to plead guilty. I did it. And he's saying, give me some more time, because he doesn't know if his client's even competent to plead guilty. That could be what we're facing here.

[Phil Holloway]

You know, you know, Dave, if you're the prosecutor, I know this is hard for you to do, but put on your prosecutor hat just for a minute, okay? You're, you're back in the, in representing the state here, and you've of facts that's presented to you and the allegations as. Or at least as reported by Page Six. Right, six. Nick was at Conan O' Brien's Christmas party right back on the 17th of December, and apparently he got into an argument with his parents. He, according to someone who was present, someone named Bill Hader, he was harassing people. He went up to Hayter reportedly, and said, you know, what's your name? What's your last name? Are you famous? He reportedly pestered other partygoers with the same questions, and eventually he was asked to leave. And this, of course, is after he showed up in the wrong attire. He was apparently just wearing, like, a hoodie, but this was like a nice, more dressy kind of holiday occasion. And so there was apparently lots of bizarre behavior in the, you know, hours or maybe day or so that preceded this. So if you're the prosecutor, Dave, what are you going to do with those facts to develop the rebuttal to the defense argument that maybe the client doesn't know right from wrong or maybe is not going to be competent to stand trial?

[Dave Ehrenberg]

All right, let's Take the easier one. It is very difficult to sustain an insanity offense. And I know when John Hinckley Jr. Got it, got away with trying to kill President Reagan, people thought, wow, this was too easy. You have these individuals getting off left and right under insanity offenses, but in reality, it's very rare. And here he's not going to be able to take advantage of that because he knew the difference between right and wrong. And you know how we know? Because he fled and was evasive after the murders. Why was he checking into a separate hotel? He didn't call police. He didn't like. He didn't sit there at the scene. He snuck out and checked into a separate location for an overnight stay, essentially to be evasive, to try to hide that he was involved in this because he knew what he did was a crime. He knew what he did was wrong. So it's your actions after the fact that can easily disprove that you didn't know the difference between right and wrong. Now, as far as competency, that's harder. That's something. As a prosecutor, you get your own experts and they interview the person. And you hope that your experts will say, yeah, he is able to assist in his defense. He understands the nature of the charges against him. And if he doesn't, you want your expert to say he is malingering. You guys know what that is, right? Malingering, which is the legal term for he's faking it. So that's what you're gonna try to use to prevent him from being sent to the mental hospital until he becomes competent to stand trial. Because the fear is, is that if he's ruled incompetent to stand trial, he goes to the mental hospital. And then it could take forever until he's brought back to mental health. And then if he can't be brought back to health, he's released. So that is perhaps a strategy here for Alan Jackson, is just to say he's not competent to stand trial. It won't even go to a trial. We don't have to worry about an insane defense. And that's perhaps why he's showing up wearing a smock, because I think the defense counsel wants him to look like that. And in front of the court and.

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[Phil Holloway]

So look, if if this was, as many have speculated, this was some kind of a drug induced psychosis or something like that. Normally that would resolve itself once someone spends some time in jail and whatever they may have taken sort of works its way out of their system. So it would seem to me that if someone is that messed up on drugs, it might very well be that at that moment they may not be capable in doing much to assist their lawyers. But that being said, that could be temporary and there's not much that a lawyer really needs assistance with at this phase other than at some point being able to talk about the facts and circumstances. But whether or not you're going to waive an arraignment is typically, you know, that's something that maybe a lawyer can do without a whole lot of client input. But I will say, according to our friends Mark Garagos and Matt Murphy, California, we know that it is much more sort of unusual for lawyers to waive an arraignment. There's a lot of discovery that by that I mean the defense is able to get in this case. They even had access to the crime scene, as I understand it already. But they're able to get a lot more of the information contained in the prosecutor, state prosecutor's case file. It's not that way in every state, but in California, I think there can be some distinct advantages by delaying a little bit so you can see a little bit more about what kind of cards the prosecutor is holding. Speaking of defense lawyers, I want to move on to another issue. Okay, so we've got questions here about.

[Dave Ehrenberg]

All right.

[Phil Holloway]

Is this person, if he's convicted, able to inherit right from the estate of his now deceased parents? And of course, California has the slayer statute that basically says no, even if you otherwise would be eligible to inherit, if you. If you murder them, you're not able to do so. But there's a. I guess a similar issue that has now presented itself. Who is paying for the expensive criminal defense lawyer? Reportedly, the fee to the lawyer is coming from the estate of the deceased parents, paid for by family members who say that they want their loved one to not go to prison for the rest of his life, but maybe spend his life in a mental institution. So, Ashley, what I can say is that you know and I know and Dave knows, it's not unheard of, not even uncommon, nor is it improper for victims to pay for the defense of the perpetrator. The last perpetrator happens all the time. But what doesn't happen all the time is we don't see deceased victims paying for it.

[Ashley Merchant]

Right.

[Phil Holloway]

Have you ever seen anything like this?

[Ashley Merchant]

I've never seen anything just like this, but it actually does not surprise me. And I. I can't imagine what the brother and sister of this gentleman, you know, the other two, the two children that obviously the ones that are the victims here, I mean, you know, the parents were the victims, but they're without their parents. And I've seen where they were very close with their parents. I mean, now Their brother's accused. So, you know, I can't imagine the burden. And they're probably the trustees, but I can't imagine the burden on them to make this decision. The one thing I can say about it, though, is I understand why they would want him to have a good defense lawyer, because I think that the only way that everybody can sleep at night and feel like any amount of justice is done is when you have a good defense, when you have a good and ethical prosecutor and you have a good, ethical, aggressive defense lawyer. And for me, if it was my family and my loved one, I would agree. I would want them to have the best defense possible, because that's the only way I could sleep at night and know that the truth came out. And I think that's what they want. You know, there's got to be more here. And so I would want the comfort of knowing that my loved one, because they. They have to love their brother. They have to. They have to be extremely angry of him, at him, But I'm sure that they still have feelings for him, you know, especially if he was in some type of a rage or something like that. So I think it's. It's completely reasonable. They also have the means. So, you know, the fact that they have the means and the fact that they want him to get a good defense, I think that's perfectly reasonable for them.

[Phil Holloway]

So I'm operating under the assumption it may not be the case, but I think it's probably a fair assumption that this estate is in a trust of some kind, as opposed to a traditional will. So if it is a trust is actually alluded to, there would be at least one trustee, presumably some family member, maybe another surviving child. We don't know who that is. But the estate is worth reportedly around $200 million or so. Right. This is a result of a long career in Hollywood. It's a lot of money. $200 million, Dave. But look, if. What if there's a dispute? What if there are other beneficiaries of this trust, other individuals who might be set to inherit some of that? And. And what if they say, look, I'm a beneficiary of this estate, and I don't want this $200 million corpus of this trust being used to defend, you know, the killer of the principles of this trust? Right. What do you do when. When this dispute. And I think it's probably inevitable. I think it's going to happen. I think there's going to be a dispute about using their money for the defense of the alleged killer. Dave, what do you say?

[Dave Ehrenberg]

Well, Professor Holloway, this turned into a trust and estates class, huh? I thought we were here for criminal law. But let's talk about trust in estates. It depends on who the beneficiaries are. Is it the kids? And if it is, if there's a dispute amongst the remaining children, yes, that could be a court decision. But apparently, according to what we've seen, is that it's the decision of the estate to provide this guy Nick with an attorney. And not just any attorney, an aggressive criminal defense lawyer. That's the surprise here. You generally hire Alan Jackson not to cop a plea and go away. You do something to do a high profile fight, perhaps to create a Menendez situation, which would be appalling. I mean, it would be appalling to the legacy of the Reiners. And you gotta believe that those who are funding this criminal defense lawyer would not want their parents to be dragged through the mud like the Menendez brothers parents were. So I would believe that that's where they have some influence. Maybe that's why they want to hire the lawyer, to make sure that he gets the best representation where he can perhaps go to a mental institution instead of a prison. And perhaps to avoid having to come up with this narrative that he's the victim here. And the parents, who people all seem to really love. Rob Reiner and his wife by all accounts, are good people who even people on the other side, politically of them, admire and love to prevent them from being dragged through the mud. So maybe there is an incentive here for the remaining children if they control the estate to pay for Nick's lawyer's fees, because then they have a little bit of control.

[Phil Holloway]

Well, this case is obviously going to be around for a while, so whoever they, you know, is going to represent him, presumably Mr. Jackson for the duration, has a lot of work ahead of him and his team. Right, Ashley? Because this could be a death penalty case. We have the allegations of special circumstances, which under most states that have the death penalty, not all murders will qualify. It's gotta be certain murders that are arguably worse in some way, in this way, because allegedly there was a double homicide and because there was a deadly weapon used, such as the knife in this case. But actually, what is different about defending this case if the potential for death is on the table. Remembering, however, that California is kind of weird, right? There's this. It's kind of like in a hiatus. There's no. They're not currently carrying out the death penalty, but theoretically the jury, as I understand it, could impose it if the prosecutor seeks it, right?

[Ashley Merchant]

They could, and they're on a moratorium right now, Phil. So the governor has actually said, we're not executing anyone. So that means he's not signing any, any warrants. But that doesn't mean that he couldn't end up on death row. So the second that I read special circumstances, I immediately thought, oh, death penalty. Because that's one of the terms of art that we use for death penalty cases. Back in the 70s, the Supreme Court, the United States Supreme Court, said that we could not have death penalty cases anymore. But then within about a year, they said, well, actually we can, but you have to make sure that it's proportional to the crime. There's got to be some special circumstances. And so when you see those special circumstances, immediately you start to think, oh, death penalty eligible. Is this a death eligible crime? Typically, special circumstances are if there's more than one person killed, or this is the one that I kind of get bothered by. It's sort of a catch all. If the death is in the commission of another felony, every death is in the commission of another felony. You could be committing an assault and the person dies. So essentially, that special circumstance, in my opinion, is kind of null and void. But immediately I started thinking about that, and I'm sure that that is something that Alan Jackson is thinking about, because not only do we have what we've talked about with competency and with insanity, but now we've got death penalty. So death penalty, you're automatically thinking mitigation, because how a death penalty case works is you first go through the innocence and guilt phase. So the jury, like we typically see guilty or not guilty, but then you have a second phase of the jury trial, and the jury actually hears what's called aggravating circumstances, those special circumstances, but they also hear mitigation. They hear mitigating evidence. And so any mental health defense, any use of drugs at the time, any abuse, anything like that is going to be factored in as mitigation. So he's probably already thinking about that. I need to start developing that mitigation now to try to help my client avoid the death penalty if the state does decide to pursue it.

[Phil Holloway]

Dave, you brought up, to Ashley's point, you brought up something. A minute ago. You were talking about whether or not we could be seeing the defense set up here for what we call the Menendez defense. Right. You're saying that there was some kind of abuse that just drove your client to act on this irresistible impulse or something along those lines. That led to this big blow up and of course the murder. So we don't know yet if that's going to be the case. We speculate that it could be headed that way. But in terms of mitigation, if you're the prosecutor and this is the way that the defense goes, and they're saying, look, our client may have killed his father and mother, but it was because he was the victim of, of some kind of abuse over the course of his lifetime as the prosecutor, what do you do to counteract that kind of mitigation? Because, look, we don't have the benefit of hearing from the deceased victims to counter any such allegation.

[Dave Ehrenberg]

You've got to look into any allegation and just disprove it. It's just a factual inquiry. You need to talk to your investigators at the district attorney's office. And just to show this is, this is garbage. I mean, that's what they did when it came to the Menendez brothers, when they tried to use the abuse excuse. Plus, you want to follow the public statements. If he's never made, Nick's never made a public statement about this in the past and all of a sudden now brings it up, you know, that's telling. Also, you want to see, every time he speaks to someone, like in the Menendez brothers case, they spoke to psychiatrists after the murder, and only later, not right away, later, did they bring up the abuse excuse. So that's the kind of thing showing inconsistencies that could just punch holes through any such claim. And as a prosecutor, I can just tell you you're a human being. And if they try to victimize the victims yet again, it would make me extra angry to dig in my heels and to demand serious punishment, life in prison, even the death penalty. Because it's one thing if you take responsibility, plead for mercy and say I have dependency issues. It's another thing we say I did it because I was in fear of my life and make up some crazy story about someone who's so beloved in our community.

[Phil Holloway]

Ashley, let's just say that you get the call to go out to California and assist in this defense. What direction would you take it?

[Ashley Merchant]

I would want to talk to him. I'd want to talk to my client about what was going on in his mind at that time. I would try to really establish what he was thinking. I would try to create a timeline about his mental health. Also, was he self medicating? You know, is that, is that what happened? To try to negate intent? Because this is really going to come down to whether or not he had criminal intent and what his reasons were for trying to brutally kill, kill his parents. And I would really focus on that because this is not this isn't a shooting. You know, the goal was not just to kill someone. This was an act, a very violent act. And that, to me, signifies that there's something going on. I would hire the best experts that I could to do full analysis of everything going on mentally with him, you know, get all of the records, get all of his history and make sure that I fully understood his mental capacity.

[Phil Holloway]

Well, this, this particular DA's office in Los Angeles is no stranger to this Menendez defense, if that's the way it's going, because they've, of course, recently just been through it with the actual Menendez. So they they certainly know what they're doing. And of course, this is one that we're going to be watching very closely here at MK True Crime. So stick with us because we'll be in it probably for the duration. Now, coming up next after the break, we have a listener request for updates on the JonBenet Ramsey case. Ashley and Dave, I know you guys remember her. Here's a little fun fact, maybe not so fun. JonBenet Ramsey's grave is very close to where Ashley's office is and where my office is in Cobb County, Georgia. And I don't know, Ashley, if you've ever been out there, but do you remember back in the, I guess, aftermath of her murder, they actually put listening devices in the trees that are near her grave out there because they were thinking maybe someone would come and make some incriminating statements. But here we are in 2025, and there's still been no killer announced. But we may have some different news on that. We'll discuss that coming up after the break. Also, we have update on singer David D4VD, as I call him. There is a new allegation that he was in possession or at least in his home. There was an industrial incinerator located capable of reaching temperatures of over 1, 600 degrees Fahrenheit. So stick around. We'll get into that after the break.

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[Phil Holloway]

Welcome back to MK True Crime. I'm Phil Holloway. I'm here with my co hosts Ashley Merchant and Dave Ehrenberg and we have been following here at MK True Crime the case of singer David out in California. We've been following this since September and to be honest with you guys, the case gets more and more disturbing. By way of a reminder, the badly decomposed remains of 14 year old victim Celeste Rivas Hernandez were found in the trunk of David's Tesla back in September. The Los Angeles Police Department is investigating the Case as we understand it, as a homicide. They have confirmed that David is being seriously considered as a suspect, but no one has yet been charged with anything. Not with destroying the remains, not with hiding evidence, or certainly not even a murder, allegedly. There is an investigative grand jury that's hearing evidence, which in and of itself is very peculiar. But now in the case, we're told there are multiple witnesses that are close to David that are cooperating. They're testifying to this grand jury. And now, guys, we have a private investigator claiming that he found this industrial burn cage inside David's rental home. As I said, the reports are that this item available, I guess you can buy it online, but it's capable of reaching temperatures of close to 1600 degrees Fahrenheit. More than enough to incinerate human remains. Of course, the remains were located, but still, this is a very, very bizarre and peculiar turn of events. Dave Ehrenberg, you're the prosecutor. Do you do something with this evidence?

[Dave Ehrenberg]

Yes. In fact, it was not subject to the search warrant. So it's not being used, apparently, in front of this grand jury. And the only answer to that as to why not is because apparently was discovered by a private investigator, and perhaps the authorities did not learn of this. What is this thing called, a burn pit or something? What is this?

[Phil Holloway]

Yeah, it's a burn cage. It says, professional power done. Right, Dr. Burn Cage.

[Dave Ehrenberg]

I mean, my gosh, I don't know where you get one of those if it comes on Amazon prime, but that is ridiculous. There's only really one reason why someone who's suspected of killing an underage girl who is found in his trunk would use that for. It's like a scene from Ozark. So that, to me, is real evidence. That's circumstantial evidence, but it's real evidence. And perhaps the only reason why it has not been used allegedly is because prosecutors and law enforcement didn't know about it until now.

[Phil Holloway]

Hey, look, you can't. Don't, don't. Look, don't. Don't bad mouth anything about Ozark because yours truly was in season three, episode one as an extra at the poker table.

[Dave Ehrenberg]

First off, I love the show. It's one of my favorite shows of all time. Yeah, it's why I never do business with the Mexican cartel. And secondly.

[Phil Holloway]

Oh, that's the only reason.

[Dave Ehrenberg]

There's a lot of reasons.

[Ashley Merchant]

Standards, right?

[Dave Ehrenberg]

Exactly. But, Phil, I'm sorry, but can you at least tell us what you were doing as an extra?

[Phil Holloway]

I was a high roller at the Poker Table Season 3 Episode 1 Check it out. I didn't say a word because then they would have to pay me more and put me in the Screen Actors Guild. But anyway, a story for another time. Actually. This, this incinerator reportedly was still boxed and unused, and it was discovered inside the the residence on Doheny street by someone named Steve Fisher, who was hired to comb through the $20,000 a month pad by the owner of that rental property. What do you make of it?

[Ashley Merchant]

So if I'm the defense lawyer helping David, I'm going to come up with a really good reason that he's got a burn cage. There better be a really good reason, because that is an odd thing to have. I mean, you better be doing some neighborhood cremation of animals for a charity or something. I mean, there better be some really good reason. This isn't like a burn pit where you're in your backyard and you're just doing, you know, a fire pit, burning up some leaves. I mean, this is literally a device to cremate remains. And that's what this device is. It's insane to me that it's even sold like this. I mean, what do you need a burn cage for other than maybe trash? But I would want to have some really solid reasons. Again, the police aren't using it, but it might come up later on. And so you want to have some good reason why this man has a burn cage. And the thing about this case is that his music, his actions, they're just strange and nobody can really piece it together. I would imagine that's why the police are taking so long. They're trying to put these little tiny odd things and they don't have any smoking gun. You know, they don't have anything like that. But they've got a lot of really bizarre things that he's been doing. Really bizarre things. He's singing about things that are bizarre in his house. And so I think they're just trying to put all of these little pieces together before they make an arrest.

[Phil Holloway]

Well, our intrepid producer Natasha has researched this issue and she informs me that standard human cremation requires a temperature of at least 1,400 degrees. And of course, this is apparently more powerful than that of note, these incinerators are illegal to use in la. David, by the way, being the most searched person on Google of 2025. Dave Aronberg, I thought it was going to be you, but you didn't make it. It was David.

[Dave Ehrenberg]

No, no, it was David. They just didn't put my last name in.

[Phil Holloway]

Right.

[Dave Ehrenberg]

Also, I don't spell it with like a before I need to start doing that, putting numbers in my name. So. But yes, I have to admit I had not heard of David before all of this. And I think one of the reasons why he was most searched is because you have a lot of people like us who are trying to figure out who this guy is as opposed to like Taylor Swift, who everyone knows.

[Ashley Merchant]

Yeah, 100%. I think I contributed to that Google search because my kids immediately know. Oh, yeah, of course I know who that is. And they knew all the stuff, but they learned it on TikTok. So if we're not on TikTok, we don't know who he is and we don't know all this stuff. And so we're all contributing to this Google search.

[Phil Holloway]

Well, look, it's going to be interesting. This is another one that we've been following here. We're going to continue to follow it here on the show moving into the new year. This case is going somewhere. I think there's going to be charges. I thought honestly there would have been some charges by now because somebody destroyed that body. It was literally dismembered and found in this Tesla. Somebody did that and that's a crime. I think cops at least have some idea who that person was, that or persons maybe that did that. And of course, there's the other issue of this illicit relationship allegedly between David and the underage victim. Now there's going to be an electronic trail. We've talked about that on the show as well before. I think that all that stuff is going to lead to some kind of criminal charges, maybe even a murder indictment. And if so, we'll have it for you here straight away at MK True Crime. Now I want to turn our attention to JonBenet Ramsey. Now, this is a case that goes back 29 years, all the way back to December 26th, whatever 29 years ago is. And this was for those of you who don't know, this comes, by the way, this is a listener suggestion from listener Melissa. We really do read the emails that you send us. MK true crimeevilmaycaremedia.com and Melissa has asked us to cover this show. She says, love the show. You're all so brilliant. Love hearing the perspectives with the legal analysis on a variety of cases. Very well done. I wonder what the status of the case for JonBenet Ramsey is. All right, so Ashley, can you give us sort of the Reader's Digest version on what this case is about and what happened?

[Ashley Merchant]

Yeah, definitely. So you Know this young girl, she was killed when she was six years old. She was strangled. And so they found her, they knew what happened. And for a long time they thought that her parents had done it. And then they looked at different family members, friends. I mean, they really had just about everybody as a suspect. And they narrowed all of those people down and they were all cleared, their names were cleared. I think there was always been a lot of suspicion about that. But what I think is really interesting right now is they're using new DNA technology to try to solve this case. And we're going to see this a lot more because DNA is just evolving every day. I don't know if a lot of people have followed it, but after 9 11, they really established this new type of DNA technology where they were able to get DNA, and it's not necessarily what I would consider blood, semen or saliva. So the standard old school DNA is always blood, semen or saliva, you know, a fluid. Now we've got DNA where it's touched DNA. Essentially you're touching something and your DNA is on it. We also have more procedures, they're called amplification, where you're able to actually extract. So let's say you've got four different people's DNA on an object, you're able to actually extract one profile so that you can try to match it to something else. So now take that a step further. And now we have all these people going into these genealogy databases and that's where they're trying to take this case. They're trying to really use those genealogy databases. You know, where you take that swab, you get it for Christmas. Some people may have it under their tree. 23andMe. I don't even know if they're still in business, but ancestry, all these places that have their DNA, you know, that is, that is contributing to this. And so they're really hoping that some of the advances in the DNA, particularly with genealogy, is going to at least narrow down to a family member maybe so that they can narrow down some suspects and keep the case alive.

[Phil Holloway]

Dave, I want to get your thoughts on this annual update from Boulder Police Department. So let's go ahead and hear SOT2 and then we'll ask Dave about it. This case remains a top priority for our department. This past year, our detectives have conducted several new interviews as well as re interviewed individuals. Based on tips that we've received, we've also collected new evidence and tested and retested other pieces of evidence to generate new leads. Techniques and technology constantly evolve this is especially true with technology related to DNA testing. Detectives continue to consult with outside experts from across across the country as well as our state and federal partners to strategize and explore all options when it comes to evidence testing. All right, Dave. So there you have it. That's the update. They say that they have new interviews and they have re interviews. If you're the prosecutor out there, and I know it's not the same guy as it was back when this happened, but if you're the prosecutor that inherits this still unsolved cold case, is that how you would proceed or is there anything else you would do? Are they doing it the right way?

[Dave Ehrenberg]

Ashley hit upon it. The new technology is genetic genealogy. It's what helped catch Bryan Coburger. Brian Coburger's relative was found through one of these 23andMe databases as a match. And then that's how they traced it to Bryan Coburger. We don't know who the relative is. In fact, this whole area is shrouded in secrecy. And why? Because it relies on all of us who enter into these databases voluntarily. And the thinking is, if people thought, hey, if I check the box that said, sure, I'll be in a public database, then I'll get hassled by cops who are investigating a murder out there and maybe the real murder will blame it on me because it's my DNA that's found when it really his. So that's a. A thing that police are intentionally trying to be vague on this. They're talking about new technologies. The fear is, is that enough people know about it that they'll click, no, they do not want to be entered into the database. But now you have all these databases out there, all these companies who do it, and so it is now a real chance that we could find a match that didn't exist before. Also because what Ashley said, you don't need all the stuff you need before. You just need the touch DNA and you need a relative. So in the year 2025, maybe there's hope we can finally catch the real killer here. And as Ashley said, it is not the parents. I know they still are under suspicion. The mother passed away years ago, but they've been drawn through the mud. It was not the parents.

[Phil Holloway]

No, and I don't think it's the father either. In fact, we've got SOT3 if we can go ahead and roll that. This is Father John Ramsey saying that he's advocating for this DNA evidence to be investigated by Othram Labs.

[Dave Ehrenberg]

Othram is one of the few cutting.

[Phil Holloway]

Edge labs that can do investigative genetic genealogy. IGG is the term for it. And we've been advocating that the Boulder police do that use that technology in our case. I think if they do, we've got a probably have 70, 80% chance of getting an answer. It's been very successful in solving old cold cases. It's kind of the latest and greatest use of technology and DNA to solve crimes. You know, Mr. Ramsey there, he's, he's not wrong. Earlier this year I had the opportunity to interview here on this show. We did a special episode. I interviewed the one of the owners of Othram Labs and I encourage folks to go back and take a a look and a listen to that interview because this is really great technology. I think it's very promising and this very well could be what gets us to some answer as to what happened in this case 29 years ago with the death of JonBenet Ramsey. All right, stay tuned. Coming up, we have our closing arguments right after the break.

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[Ashley Merchant]

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[Phil Holloway]

Welcome back to MK True Crime. I'm Phil Holloway, joined by my fellow contributors Ashley Merchant and Dave Ehrenberg. And if you can believe it, guys, it's time for our last closing argument of 2025 here on the show. But first, did you know that you can now listen to MK True Crime on the Megyn Kelly Channel, Sirius XM Channel 111. This is part of our Me podcast playlist. MK True Crime will air Tuesdays at 10:00am and Saturdays at 9:00am and 10:00am Eastern Standard Time on Sirius XM Channel 111. All right, Ashley, we'll continue with the theme of Ladies first. If you're ready, we'd love to hear what your closing is for today. The last one of the year, so take it home.

[Ashley Merchant]

I know last one of the year, so it's gotta be epic. Normally, I don't really rant. I do more of a, you know, lecture type style. But today I'm gonna rant a little. So earlier this week, we got to see Fani Willis. We got to see her testify finally in front of the Senate, a committee that I testified in front of, I don't know, 18 months ago, immediately. And I want to just kind of walk you through a little bit of the differences first and then mention a couple things and sort of respond to them. So first, it took the Senate, what, 18 months for her to actually sit her butt in that chair and answer questions. When they gave me a subpoena, I said, when do you need me? It is a public service. You want to hear from me. I've got nothing to hide. That's the first thing. When she testified, she definitely leveled her rage. I read that quote somewhere and I said, that is appropriate. She leveled her rage. But I wonder why act like that if you've got nothing to hide? If you're not upset about what you've done, if you are beyond reproach, why act like that? Why show such anger? But the other thing that I really wanted to talk about, it's just, you know, I was sitting in my chair as I watched it, and I was kind of like Wanting to scream, you know, oh, wait, that's wrong. If you go back and you watch her testimony and it's out there, you can find it. The Georgia General assembly livestreamed it. You can go watch it. One of the things that was asked was if she had had conversations before she took office, if she had done certain things before she took office. On the Trump election interference case, the Georgia election interference case. Her response kind of insane, that it's a dumbass question. So a state senator is asking her a question, calm, respectful, asking her a question in a public, in the state capitol, under the Georgia Gold Dome, asking her a question about if she had taken action before she took office or had conversations about this case. She says that's a dumbass question. And she says it's factually impossible. I'm literally screaming, where's my indictment? Because you know what? My indictment, where my client was charged, says he was charged with racketeering conspiracy. And guess what? The date that that racketeering conspiracy started. November 4, 2020. Guess when Ms. Willis took office. January 1, 2021. So I don't really know if Senator Dolezal is the dumbass or who's the dumbass, but if you had looked at the indictment, you would clearly see that you yourself, Ms. Willis, had alleged that this crime started to occur before you took office. So there's my rant. I hope everybody has a great holiday and a happy New Year.

[Phil Holloway]

All right, so there it is. We end 2026 with Ashley Merchant posing the question, who is the dumbass? All right, Dave, your turn, buddy. What's on your mind today? What's your final closing argument to close out the year?

[Dave Ehrenberg]

Well, thank you, Phil, and thank you, Ashley. I really enjoyed being partnered up with you guys here on True Crime. And when it comes to the last couple weeks, it's been a gut punch because we've seen such violence, such tragedy. We saw it at Brown University where they still haven't caught the killer. We saw it at Bondi beach in Australia, where 15 innocent Jews were slaughtered by jihadists. We saw it with Rob Reiner and his wife who were murdered by their own son. But just when you thought there was no hope for humanity, we see heroes. People like Ahmed Al Ahmed. He's a 44 year old Syrian Australian Muslim, shop owner, father of two, who disarmed one of the terrorists and got shot for it, became a hero, probably saving countless lives. Just contrast him with the radical Islamists who were trying to murder Jews in the name of isis. And we also saw when it came to Rob Reiner's tragic murder. We saw that there were people on the right who spoke up. And, yes, I was very disappointed, even by President Trump's standards, that he said the things he did about Rob Reiner, he should have let that go. But I was heartened by James woods, who I often disagree with politically. And he said this in an emotional talk on Fox News, said that because you disagree with people doesn't mean you have to hate people. He called Reiner a godsend and a great patriot, noting that they both loved the same country but had a different path to the same destination. Rob Schneider, formerly a Saturday Night Live, who has expressed a lot of very conservative views and gotten in trouble for it, it he said this. I really admire Rob Reiner and ask that everybody will be able to put aside our political affiliations and opinions and enjoy somebody for their true talents. We have to agree to disagree and also agree that we can condemn a horrible, horrible tragedy we've done it and asked for in the past. We can do it ourselves here today. Remember, it was Rob Reiner who condemned the murder of Charlie Kirk. And so. So I'm looking at the best of humanity. People on both sides of the aisle can come together and say, no, we must move out of this time of despair, of senseless violence. And in this, our final episode of the year, in the midst of Hanukkah and shortly before families around the world will celebrate Christmas, this positivity is what I like to focus on. It's the hope that during these times of trolling and swatting and contrived consternation, that we like candles during Hanukkah and are taught that darkness cannot drive out darkness, only light can. So my wish for all of us here at MK True Crime is that we all become the light in the lives of others. Never lose faith that the power to heal this world is within us all.

[Phil Holloway]

All right, you know, look, so one of the things I really love about this show, like in the closing arguments, we never know what anybody is going to say. It's completely up to the individual co host or contributor. And so this is a perfect example of three people, three contributors doing this show. And we have three different directions that we go in. Because I'm going to talk to you a little bit about the phenomenon known as stealth jurors. And the reason I want to talk about stealth jurors is because here at MK True Crime, among some other exciting changes that we'll talk more about later here on the channel and on the show, we're going to be covering more trials and we're going to be focusing in depth on some of these high profile trials. Stealth jurors are people who intentionally conceal their biases, their prejudice or their personal agendas during the jury selection process because they're trying to get on a jury. That jury selection, of course, known as, as we me and Ashley say in the south, we call it voir dire. Dave may call it voir dire, but, but it's the time when the lawyers and sometimes judges get to question jurors and sometimes they're dishonest and they do this just so they can get seated on a jury and influence the outcome of a trial. So they oftentimes they will lie, they will misrepresent what their views are, what their opinions are, they will misrepresent whatever conflict of interest they may have. They try to appear neutral and they try to fly under the radar so that they can get put on this jury with, with some agenda. We've seen some examples of this, of course in history. We have some allegations, for example, from the Scott Peterson trial years ago out in California. But you know what they do? They'll hide their opinions, they'll hide their personal connections, they will hide motives. A lot of times they might want to say, write a book or they seek their 15 minutes of fame doing news interviews following whatever the verdict may be in these high profile file trials. So stealth jurors, they're a real problem. They're a serious problem. They undermine the fundamental right to a fair and honest impartial jury as guaranteed by law to every person accused of a crime in the United States. They taint deliberations, they lead to biased and wrong verdicts. They, they hung jury, they hang juries, and they misrepresent themselves to result in mistrials and wrongful convictions or wrongful acquittals. Their presence in the jury box erodes public trust in the justice system and it leads to unjust outcomes regardless of whatever the evidence is that's presented in the case. So detecting them is challenging, but it's crucial. It requires lawyers to ask probing questions, good questions designed to look for non verbal clues, inconsistencies in their responses. And they oftentimes have to resort to post trial revelations to see if this has happened because these people can be prosecuted for lying during the jury selection process. That's it. That's my rent. That's my close for 2025. First though, I want to say thank you to all of you who are our audience. You make this show what it is whether you watch on YouTube, whether you listen on Sirius or you listen on podcast. Thank you. And thank you to my fellow contributors today, Ashley Merchant and Dave Ehrenberg. This has been a great year and we have some very exciting things coming up in store for 2026. More on that, so stay tuned. But until then, I wish all of you a very Merry Christmas, Happy Hanukkah, Happy Holidays, and of course, Happy New Year from us at mk. True crime.

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