Sheriff’s Mixed Messages on Guthrie Family, “Signal Sniffing” Tech, and Investigating the D4vd Case from the Inside, with Steve Fischer

Summary

MK True Crime: Sheriff’s Mixed Messages on Guthrie Family, “Signal Sniffing” Tech, and Investigating the D4vd Case from the Inside – with Steve Fisher

Episode aired on February 18, 2026
Host: Dave Aronberg
Co-host: Ashley Merchant
Guest: Steve Fisher, Private Investigator

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Episode Overview

This episode of MK True Crime dives into the ongoing investigation into the disappearance of Nancy Guthrie, the mother of notable show host Savannah Guthrie. The hosts analyze recent developments, including the sheriff’s public statements, DNA evidence from gloves, signal detection technology targeting Nancy's pacemaker, and convoluted ransom communications tied to the case. Private Investigator Steve Fisher joins to bring a technical and field-level perspective, and the team also pivots to discuss the shocking D4vd/Celeste Rivas Hernandez case. The show is rich with legal analysis, personal commentary, and technical details about investigative techniques.

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Main Segments & Key Discussion Points

1. Status Update on Nancy Guthrie’s Case (01:05–08:25)

• Nancy Guthrie, 84, missing for three weeks; ongoing search and new developments.
• Emotional plea from her daughter Savannah:
  • “It's never too late. You're not lost or alone and it is never too late to do the right thing.” (Savannah Guthrie, as read by Ashley Merchant, 03:12)
• Analysis of Savannah’s video statements:
  • FBI Behavioral Analyst Unit (BAU) might have advised her on phrasing meant to reach the potential perpetrator emotionally.
  • Discussion of possible suspect profile (angry, possibly slighted, maybe a loner with a fixation on Savannah).

Notable Quote:

“It’s never too late to do the right thing. And we are here and we believe in the essential goodness of every human being.”
— Dave Aronberg (03:12)

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2. Ransom Notes, Family Clearance, and Public Perception (05:19–12:32)

• Clearing the family:
  • The sheriff publicly clears the Guthrie family, a move scrutinized for its speed and lack of detail (08:47).
  • Questions about public skepticism and the impact on the family, who have received hate online.
  • Gloves found near the scene: confusion as some gloves fell from investigators’ pockets, raising concerns about investigative protocol (09:54).
• Ransom demands and the reality check:
  • The show highlights skeptical takes on multiple ransom emails demanding bitcoin, all sent to TMZ—raising suspicions about their legitimacy (06:39, 18:16–21:03).
• Reward updates:
  • FBI and Milwaukee Crime Stoppers now both offering $100,000 rewards, the latter promising donor-funded anonymous tips (06:39–08:25).

Notable Quote:

“If a kidnapper would be... nervous about contacting the FBI... [Crime Stoppers] is the perfect place to do it.”
— Ashley Merchant (07:28)

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3. DNA Evidence and Law Enforcement Protocols (14:34–18:16)

• State of the DNA evidence:
  • Glove found with a male DNA profile but no current CODIS match.
  • Speculation about use of genealogical database searches (e.g., 23andMe) à la the Brian Kohberger case.
• Technical limitations:
  • Lack of match does not preclude progress; law enforcement is possibly collecting and comparing DNA from persons of interest/interviews (15:19–16:44).
  • Numerous gloves found—many dropped by police—seen as evidence mishandling.

Notable Quote:

“It’s so sloppy... if you drop a glove, you should be extra cautious about picking that glove up.”
— Ashley Merchant (17:24)

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4. Competing Theories & Ransom Email Dissection (18:16–24:23)

• Burglary vs. Kidnapping Debate:
  • Police say “not a burglary; definitely an abduction”.
  • Family and inside sources disagree, highlighting lack of coordinated communication.
• TMZ ransom emails:
  • Fourth email demands bitcoin; claims knowledge of Nancy’s location “south of the border” and that “more than one person involved” (19:38–22:49).
  • Harvey Levin (of TMZ) calls the sender’s bluff and coordinates with the FBI to encourage legitimate information.

Notable Quotes:

“I know what I saw five days ago south of the border. And I was told to shut up. So I know who he is. And that was definitely Nancy with them.”
— Reading from the fourth ransom email (20:17–22:21)

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5. Public Reaction, Political Intervention, and Pleas for Action (24:23–25:04)

• Reward and legal consequences:
  • President Trump threatens the death penalty if Nancy is not returned alive (24:23).
  • Hosts debate the realities and limitations of the death penalty in the context of the law.
• Repeated calls for information:
  • Emphasis on the opportunity for an anonymous, rewarded tip.

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6. INTERVIEW: Steve Fisher on Tech in the Guthrie Investigation (27:54–39:26)

A. Initial Assessment

• Fisher casts doubt on the burglary theory; calls for more public sharing of video evidence to harness public help (28:29).
• He voices concern that the case’s focus has shifted too much to law enforcement criticism.

B. Signal “Sniffing” - Pacemaker Tracking Technology (30:48–38:36)

• Tech Explainer—BlueFly Device:

  • Purpose: Detects low-frequency Bluetooth/RF signals from personal electronics—including medical devices like pacemakers.
  • Range is limited: Pacemaker RF signals only detectable up to ~50 ft, and struggle with walls/obstructions.
  • Not designed for large-scale, citywide sweeps—best in search contexts like open areas or collapsed buildings.

• Helicopter vs. Drone Usage:

  • Drones generally preferred but are often now unavailable due to equipment bans.
  • Helicopter use was hampered by staffing issues.

• Practical limitations:

  • Search would pick up any nearby pacemaker, not Nancy’s specifically.
  • Technology more effective/appropriate in remote or contained environments than residential neighborhoods.

Notable Quotes:

“It can detect anything emitting a signal—cell phones, AirTags, pacemakers—but it’s not really made for this use case. I’m all for them using it—throw everything at it—but it’s not meant for city sweeps.”
— Steve Fisher (30:48–37:37)

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7. Investigative Data Points & Unusual Search Patterns (39:26–40:55)

• Fisher flags a spike in Google searches for “ransom” in the Tucson area on January 31 (day before the abduction), with four observed searches close to the Nogales (Mexico) border.
• He also mentions unusual aircraft movement (early morning flight from Tucson to Mexico).

Notable Quote:

“[There] were four searches [for ‘ransom’] in an area down south, close to Nogales border... just another data point to consider.”
— Steve Fisher (39:52)

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8. The D4vd/Celeste Rivas Hernandez Case – Inside Investigation (41:03–53:52)

• Steve Fisher retained by the Hollywood Hills homeowner after Celeste’s death in singer D4vd’s Tesla, which was linked to the property.
• Owner reports confusion and frustration dealing with law enforcement; brings PI in to recover missed potential evidence (burn cage, chainsaw, camera SD card).
• Both D4vd and the victim's families are keeping silent (45:19–45:29), a notable divergence from media patterns.
• Discussion about non-traditional investigative methods (canvassing, recovering data left out by law enforcement).
• Significant surveillance video lost due to upgrade and lack of law enforcement follow-up (49:12–50:36).

Notable Quotes:

“Somebody from law enforcement asked why I was taking things public... as a private investigator, I don’t have subpoena power. Sometimes I have to dog whistle to certain people and let them know that I know certain things...”
— Steve Fisher (46:54)

"8 terabytes of data of a camera pointing directly at [the house]... is gone."
— Steve Fisher (50:32)

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9. Legal Corner & Listener Q&A: Jury Duty, Reasonable Doubt, and Juror Integrity (55:46–63:36)

• Listener asks: What does “reasonable doubt” really mean?
• Ashley Merchant: Urges jurors to stand by their convictions, explains “reasonable doubt” as unanswered questions.
• Dave Aronberg: Contrasts as a prosecutor; distinguishes doubt vs. reasonable doubt.
• Ashley further explains the Allen Charge and why not reaching a unanimous verdict (a hung jury) is legitimate if a juror’s doubts persist.

Notable Quotes:

“You do not have to give up any convictions... if you believe someone is not guilty... It’s your duty to stand by that verdict. You are not supposed to give in.”
— Ashley Merchant (62:00)

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10. Closing Remarks & Offbeat Reflections (63:36–66:14)

• Ashley Merchant: Educates listeners on juror rights and duties—especially regarding hung juries and not yielding to group pressure.
• Dave Aronberg: Lighthearted anecdote about trying his first Pilates session, encouraging listeners (especially men) to step outside comfort zones.

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Timestamps for Critical Segments

• Savannah Guthrie’s public plea and analysis: 02:20–03:31
• Discussion of ransom emails and family clearance: 06:39–08:25; 19:38–22:49
• DNA evidence and police evidence mishandling: 14:34–18:16
• Steve Fisher introduction and initial Guthrie assessment: 27:54–29:54
• Signal sniffing tech (BlueFly device) explained: 30:48–37:37
• Ransom search-term anomaly & flight to Mexico: 39:26–40:55
• D4vd case—inside investigation: 41:03–53:52
• Jury duty, reasonable doubt, and juror integrity (Q&A): 55:46–63:36

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Tone and Style Highlights

• Empathetic and forthright, with hosts alternating between measured legal analysis and genuine concern for families involved.
• Conversational, direct style—does not shy away from criticizing law enforcement mistakes or legal system quirks.
• Deep-dive technical details, especially during Steve Fisher’s interview: practical challenges of signal hunting, chain-of-custody lapses, real-world investigative constraints.
• Balanced skepticism, analyzing both official statements and internet theories without indulging in wild speculation.
• Uses memorable, sometimes dark humor to offset weighty subject matter (Dave’s Pilates and Rush music anecdote).

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Notable Quotes

• “It's never too late to do the right thing. And we are here and we believe and we believe in the essential goodness of every human being.” – Dave Aronberg (03:12)
• “If a kidnapper would be... nervous about contacting the FBI... [Crime Stoppers] is the perfect place to do it.” – Ashley Merchant (07:28)
• “It’s so sloppy... if you drop a glove, you should be extra cautious about picking that glove up.” – Ashley Merchant (17:24)
• “It can detect anything emitting a signal—cell phones, AirTags, pacemakers—but it’s not really made for this use case. I’m all for them using it... but it’s not meant for city sweeps.” – Steve Fisher (30:48–37:37)
• "[There] were four searches [for ‘ransom’] in an area down south, close to Nogales border... just another data point to consider." – Steve Fisher (39:52)
• “8 terabytes of data of a camera pointing directly at [the house]... is gone.” – Steve Fisher (50:32)
• "You do not have to give up any convictions... if you believe someone is not guilty... It’s your duty to stand by that verdict. You are not supposed to give in." – Ashley Merchant (62:00)

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Summary Verdict

This episode delivers a comprehensive update on two major cases—the disappearance of Nancy Guthrie and the D4vd/Celeste Rivas case—while spotlighting evolving investigative technology and legal process pitfalls. It mixes empathy for families, scrutiny of law enforcement, and practical takes from the field. The technical deep dive into “signal sniffing” is especially informative, and the discussion about jury duty offers useful, real-world advice. For listeners following either case or who are interested in how modern investigations unfold, this episode is both engaging and educational.

Transcript

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[Dave Aronberg]

Welcome to MK True Crime. I'm Dave Aronberg. I'm the former State Attorney for Palm Beach County, Florida and current managing partner of Dave Aronberg Law. Here's what's on the docket today. We have entered the third week of the Nancy Guthrie investigation and as of this taping on Tuesday, February 17, Nancy Guthrie, 84 year old mother of today's show host Savannah Guthrie, is still missing. We'll bring you the latest developments, including the sheriff's statement this week clearing all Guthrie family members and what we know about the DNA collected from a glove found nearby the Guthrie residence and missing persons. Private investigator Steve Fisher will join us later to break down the signal sniffing technology utilizing the Guthrie case and more. I'm joined today by my co host Ashley Merchant, criminal defense lawyer out of Atlanta, Georgia, but also originally from the great state of Florida. Ashley, it's been three weeks and it doesn't seem like we're any closer to finding Nancy. Nancy Guthrie, you know, but we are trying to be hopeful and Savannah Guthrie is maintaining hope and so must we. She addressed her mother's abductor again on Sunday night.

[Ashley Merchant]

I wanted to come on and.

[Dave Aronberg]

It'S.

[Ashley Merchant]

Been two weeks since our mom was taken and I just wanted to come.

[Dave Aronberg]

On and say that.

[Ashley Merchant]

We still have hope and we still believe. And I wanted to say to whoever.

[Dave Aronberg]

Has her or knows where she is.

[Ashley Merchant]

That it's never too late.

[Dave Aronberg]

And you're.

[Ashley Merchant]

Not lost or alone and it is.

[Dave Aronberg]

Never too late to do the right thing. And we are here and we believe and we believe in the essential goodness of every human being.

[Ashley Merchant]

And it's never too late. That is heart wrenching, Dave. Like, that's just hard to watch. And I know one of your friends, Jennifer Coffendaffer, we had her on last week talking about a retired FBI agent. She had some. Some really interesting insight, I thought, into this latest video. You know, she said she believed the FBI's Behavioral Analyst Unit, the BAU, as they're called, had drawn up a profile of the abductor, and that some of the words that Savannah used here was based potentially on that profile and using it to sort of lure him in, to appeal to him. She. She asked if it was someone angry, like maybe a Brian Coburger who was angry, but not angry because he was a sadistic loser, a serial killer in the making, but rather, is this porch guy angry because he feels slighted and he wanted Savannah to pay? You know, is this why Savannah is doing these pleas now, solo? Because, you know, before we saw the whole family, now we see just her doing these pleas. Thought it was interesting, you know, taking the motive. Is it. Is it more twisted? You know, talk to her and you will see reference. What does that mean? I thought that was interesting. It's never too late. You're not lost or alone. Does that mean that this behavioral unit believes that he's a loner? Maybe he's messed up. Maybe he's deeply unhappy. Is that who he is? Maybe he's deeply jealous of Savannah. Is he someone who's capable of extreme violence, hurting on the inside? I don't know. It sounded interesting listening to Jennifer's, you know, analysis. And what happened between porch guy and Nancy for up to these 41 minutes. Was there DNA found inside? Was there, you know, what type of DNA? And what is the motive with all these ransom notes? I know we're going to talk about that in a little bit. What is the motive about all these ransom notes? But it sounds like, Dave, that they have completely cleared all of the family members of this.

[Steve Fisher]

This.

[Dave Aronberg]

Yeah, actually. Would that mean then the abduction was never about the ransom money, that the whole burglary theory is garbage? Because based on what Jennifer Coffendapper is saying, that this is a different motive. It's something to do with this person's insecurities and just his. His hatred and anger. It. It is interesting. You raise a good point, that you only see Savannah Guthrie on this video and the language she uses, and that shows you all these ransom, not, I always thought, were sort of specious, the ones that are sent as tmz which is bizarre. And then they're all wanting bitcoin, which of course is used by kidnappers. But on the other hand, you don't see any signs of life. Like, if they really were in possession of Savannah's mother, why wouldn't they show sign of life? And they don't. So I don't hold out much hope that she's alive. And I say that with a heavy heart because I would love there to be a happy ending here. I would love her to be alive. But every day that passes is just worse for the family and worse for any chances that she is alive. But I think that as far as finding what happened and arresting a person, I still believe that day will come. Do you agree? Are you giving up hope on that one?

[Ashley Merchant]

Oh, no. I mean, I definitely think that they're getting closer. And I mean, if she is alive, I think the fact that they're getting closer is definitely heartening. I think, you know, what you said about the ransom note and they're asking for money, they're asking for bitcoin. What I don't really understand about that is there's a reward. I mean, we've got. The FBI has upped the reward. So the FBI is now asking for $100,000 for information. And, you know, that. That in and of itself is something significant. But I also noticed that there was a Milwaukee attorney who has offered award, and this one is very different, Dave. This was $100,000, but it's through. I think it's called Crime Stoppers. So Milwaukee Crime Stoppers. And this lawyer is the president of the Milwauke Stop Hers. And he himself has donated $100,000 and said that anyone who has a tip, they would remain anonymous. So, you know, if a kidnapper would be kidnapped or an abductor or someone who has information, if they're nervous about contacting the FBI, which I get, you know, we represent people that do bad things or, you know, it's the worst day of their life. Maybe they don't want to call the FBI. Maybe they're scared of law enforcement. They've got this alternative. They can call this Crime Stoppers, you know, and what he said, he told one of the local channels, he said that he feels the anonymity may encour, encourage people to come forward and that Crime Stoppers is the perfect place to do it. So hopefully that, you know, they're looking for ransom. Maybe these, maybe these, you know, this money, this hundred thousand dollars, maybe it'll increase the odds of getting some. Some Tips.

[Dave Aronberg]

Yeah, it won't hurt. And it's. We should have credit. It's attorney Michael Hupy. H U P Y. I may be butchering his name forever. Whatever his motivation is, it is a good step forward to increase the number of dollars. Maybe it will jog someone's memory. Maybe we'll encourage someone to step forward, especially that they can remain anonymous.

[Ashley Merchant]

100,000 reasons to come forward.

[Dave Aronberg]

You know, exactly. I do want to go back to something you said. You mentioned the family being cleared by the sheriff. And this is something that's been controversial online. You've seen Megyn Kelly talk about it with Jennifer Coffindaffer. You've seen her talk about it with Ashley. Ashley Merchant.

[Ashley Merchant]

Other Ashley felt the same way, though. Very interesting.

[Dave Aronberg]

It is interesting.

[Steve Fisher]

Yeah.

[Dave Aronberg]

Well, Ashley Banfield and Ashley Manfield is good context. But the sheriff has been adamant saying that the family is not involved. And apparently members of the family have gotten hate. And it's tough. But I don't doubt the motivations of the people who are speaking up about it. They want to find the answer. And generally when you start, you look to the people closest to the victim, family, friends. And I've always thought that it was someone who knew something. So maybe it was someone who worked for the family and it's a relative, a friend, because they knew who was living there. They knew the layout of the house, they knew where the cameras were to spray it, and they knew the likelihood they could get attention and money out of it. But maybe it is just a random. It's just this frustrating thing that it's been going on for so long. We don't have a lot of tests. What we do know is that there were gloves found. And apparently some of the gloves found fell out of the pockets of the investigators. So two questions for you. First, is that like Keystone Cops things? I mean, that you have gloves that investigators were using that fell out of their pockets onto the ground. They're now like, whoa, what a revelation. Oh, no.

[Ashley Merchant]

Right, right.

[Dave Aronberg]

Come on. And then number two, what's your take on the family being cleared by the sheriff? Should we just move on from that and just say that's it?

[Ashley Merchant]

Yeah, I mean, I've definitely got some opinions on both of those. The gloves, that's just sloppy. Come on. I mean, first of all, you shouldn't be littering anyway. Come on, pick up your stuff. You're out there searching. Pick up your trash. But you know, you're out there searching for a glove. So if you drop a glove, you should be extra cautious about Picking that glove up. Particularly if you think about what they're doing when they're out there. They're literally scouring the ground looking for clues. So if you drop the clue, why aren't you going to pick that up? I mean think about hours wasted, I guess, I don't know. But that makes me wonder how good of a, you know, investigator, how good they're actually scouring the scene then if they don't even realize they're dropping some litter on the side of the road, you know, the, the family being cleared, I mean, I hope to God that the family is not involved, you know, and I appreciate the sheriff wanting to clear them. I think what the public is curious about is why, you know, why were they cleared so quickly? And so that might go a little bit further if they were able to give a little bit more details. I know that they're very tight lipped about this, but it does sound like Dave, that we've gotten maybe our best tips so far and who knew Walmart may be the one that's helping. And we've got a, you know, the FBI put out a pretty good description of the person that they're looking for. They said it's a male. They finally figured out, you know, around 5, 9, 510 tall. Based on we saw last week they had all that, you know, equipment out there doing fancy geometry, crime scene stuff. So they've got an average build. And then in the video he was wearing a black 25 liter Ozark Trail hiker pack backpack. And apparently this Ozark Trail is a Walmart brand so you can only buy it at Walmart. So now they're talking to Walmart and hoping that Walmart, because this is exclusive, will be able to give them some information about this, this backpack. Backpack. You know, I know the sheriff, I believe, I think the sheriff gave a text message statement about it.

[Dave Aronberg]

Yeah. In fact the sheriff's department, an official statement said on Monday that it's still a possibility that although it may have been purchased from Walmart, it is not exclusively available at Walmart. So Walmart could provide some information but it could have been purchased technically other places. But I wouldn't be surprised, just purchase at Walmart, I mean, right? Walmart's everywhere, it's ubiquitous. So yeah, this is gumshoe detective work. This is what they do, they track it down. That's why it takes a while. This is not the 2026 DNA. We're talking about going back to Walmart, start talking to the clerks there and looking at surveillance videos.

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[Dave Aronberg]

What about, you know, as far as DNA, there is no DNA match on the gloves that that were found. There were some gloves actually found a couple miles away, but there's no DNA match. Which means that the person who wore them is not in the CODIS database. Meaning there wasn't a swab that wasn't a guy who was arrested previously for a crime. But neither was Brian Coburger. Right? And the way they found him was through a genealogical DNA database like 23andMe where they get a DNA, some DNA and they run it through a family database and they say okay, someone's cousin is the one who committed the crime, and here's the cousin. So do you think maybe that's going on now? I would think they're doing that. And maybe that's the key to cracking this case.

[Ashley Merchant]

I think so. And, you know, Phil and I talked a lot last week about DNA, and we talk about it all the time on this show because it's, you know, it's the new thing and it's fascinating. But you're right, there is no match. But what they did find was they found an unknown male profile on this glove. So I think that's significant evidentiary wise, that the fact that they actually found a male profile so they, they were able to isolate the profile. They've got the profile, it's a male profile. What they don't have is the other side. So whenever they're putting this into a system, they're putting the DNA swab in, they're putting the one that they know the known, which is what they got off of this glove, and they're comparing it to the other samples. And so they know that it doesn't match someone who's been to prison, someone who's a convicted felon and had to give a DNA sample. But what it may match, like you mentioned, is somebody in a genealogy database, something like that. But they've got to have a little bit more to do that because law enforcement can run these things, run this DNA profile automatically through CODIS because it's a government database. But to go that step further and actually take someone's DNA from like a genealogy website, for example, which is not a government site, so it's something that someone voluntarily provided, they've got to have a little bit more information. But once they are able to identify a suspect, they even could get DNA from that suspect and they could swab them and they could either exclude them or include them. So, you know, we hear that they're interviewing a lot of different folks. I wonder if they're taking DNA, DNA from all of these folks and perhaps they're excluding them based on the DNA. You know, they're actually taking their DNA and being able to exclude them, which is a wonderful thing, if they can do that.

[Dave Aronberg]

Yeah, well, that's where technology can help. You know, law enforcement isn't quick to divulge that they're doing this because a lot of these hits that have come back are because someone, a family member, will check the box, that, sure, I'll be in the database. And law enforcement doesn't want people to think twice about checking that box. So it's that's why it's shrouded in some secrecy and, but it's being used more and more. And thank you. If you're, if you've checked the box because maybe that could help crack a future case open. Now we mentioned the gloves. You know that there are 16 gloves that were collected and most of the gloves were discarded by police during the search.

[Ashley Merchant]

I mean, it's so sloppy.

[Dave Aronberg]

Come on.

[Ashley Merchant]

It's so sloppy. And it's just doubles their work, you know, it just doubles their work. But you know, one thing that I continued to think was that this maybe was a burglary. And apparently this has been debunked, this theory that it could be a burglary. They said that there's new investigative leads that say that it's not this widespread belief that it was a burglary. It's not how it is anymore. They don't believe that this was a burglary. Well, the inside sources are actually saying they believe it could have been a burglary gone wrong. They just don't know. But then the police are saying, no, it's actually not a burglary, it's gotta be an abduction. It definitely isn't a burglary. So it seems like they just haven't made a whole lot of progress at this point. And you've got family members saying one thing, it is a burglary. You've got the police saying another thing, it definitely isn't a burglary. Why aren't the two talking? Why aren't they trying to figure this out together? You know, it seems like very competing, competing theories going on here.

[Dave Aronberg]

Yeah, a nighttime burglary. Remember, burglary is different than robbery. So robbery is when you stick someone up. Burglars, when you break into a house, generally when they're not there and you take stuff. Well, nighttime burglaries in that area are rare and also nothing of value was taken. So if it was a burglary, you wouldn't think they would take some stuff. So that's why I don't believe the burglary thing. I think it's a kidnapping that went awry. I think it's a kidnapping that, that when they dealt with a 84 year old woman who needed medication and had apparently were blood stains in and outside the house that I don't know if she made it beyond the house. I don't know. And I just. Look, I'm hoping for the best, but to me it looks like a botched kidnapping. And you know, TMZ received A fourth email demanding, by the way, why are they only going to tmz? What is that about? You know, just is that show that these folks are just fakers out there who are just going to the site that they think will publicize it the most, that's not really a news site and think people won't ask as many questions. I don't know. Maybe they have a love for Harvey Levin. I don't know why they're going to tmz, but they got another email demanding money and Harvey Levin saying, you stop it. You know, if you aren't real, you're committing a crime. Yeah, yeah. These people who are doing this are real losers. I mean, you're taking advantage of people at their lowest times of their lives, exploiting their tragedy to try to gain a few dollars. Shame on you.

[Ashley Merchant]

I know, but it was. I thought it was interesting. And I think they can get some tidbits from each of these ransom notes, you know, if they are real. But this one, I thought some of what he said was interesting. It came in the form of an email. This is the fourth email from the man. The same man, apparently, that is claiming to have known something about this kidnapping, saying that he knows who kidnapped her and he knows where she is. Is the email this time said with the same bitcoin amount that he asked for in the three other emails now says, I know what I saw five days ago south of the border. So that. Ding, ding, ding. I thought that was a big clue. I know what I saw 5 days ago south of the border. And I was told to shut up. So I know who he is. And that was definitely Nancy with them.

[Dave Aronberg]

Well, now you have an ability to report it anonymously and get $100,000.

[Ashley Merchant]

I know. And that's what he should do. That's what he should be. Because this man said the reason he didn't want to come forward is he has a burglary on his record from 10 years ago. So he's scared to come forward. He's afraid he'll be implicated. But like you said, we've got this Milwaukee attorney and Milwaukee crime stoppers that, you know, not only can he come forward and do the right thing, but he can get 100 grand out of the deal.

[Dave Aronberg]

Yeah, I mean, that doesn't make sense anymore. And that's why that lawyer was right to call his bluff, because now there's no excuses. I think that the guy's lying. I don't think he knows anything. I think he's just an opportunist and it's not like if you know something, you send it to TMZ and ask for Bitcoin.

[Ashley Merchant]

Right.

[Dave Aronberg]

Just a gross individual.

[Ashley Merchant]

I liked Harvey Levin's response, though. You know, he had a response to the sender and he said, if the individual who is writing us these emails is reading this, which you would think that he is, by the way, just me inserting that. That's not what Harvey Levin said, but you would think that he is paying attention. Attention. If you are reading this, if you are real, send us the information regarding the whereabouts of Nancy and her kidnappers. We will immediately forward the information to the FBI. If it leads to finding Nancy and or kidnappers, then you have a public record that you are the one responsible, thus ensuring you'll get the reward. The FBI is aware that we are making this overture. I think we actually have a SOT from. Yeah, we have a SOT if we can play SO2, which is Harvey Levin responding to this person.

[Steve Fisher]

I have something to say to you.

[Dave Aronberg]

And I have already talked to the.

[Steve Fisher]

FBI about this, that if you are.

[Dave Aronberg]

Not real, you're committing a crime and.

[Steve Fisher]

You should know that. And this is a serious federal crime.

[Dave Aronberg]

If you are real.

[Steve Fisher]

This is the fourth letter you've sent, and I should tell everybody that in this letter it says, I know what.

[Dave Aronberg]

I saw 5 days ago south of the border. And I was told to shut up.

[Ashley Merchant]

So I know who he is.

[Steve Fisher]

And that was definitely Nancy with them.

[Dave Aronberg]

This is the second time he has.

[Steve Fisher]

Referred to more than one person involved in this. He said there is a main person.

[Ashley Merchant]

And there are others.

[Steve Fisher]

And he said it here.

[Ashley Merchant]

Yeah, so that tells us a couple things that tells us she may have been taken to Mexico south of the border. Multiple people were involved, and there seems to be a ringleader, seems to be a group leader.

[Dave Aronberg]

Well, I do think based on the video that I saw, it does seem like there is perhaps a tie to someone south of the border because of the way that that individual had his gun. It is not normal for people to carry their gun in their front waist. I mean, normally you have a side, you have a latch, you have a holder in a back on your ankle. But to carry it so cavalierly like this looks like a cartel member in the front of their waist. I mean, Plaxico Burris tried that in a nightclub in New York and shot himself and then then got banned from the NFL for a while and sent to jail. And there is a picture on the screen of the individual. What a scary dude. You know, this is not a question of whether this person was involved. This person was definitely involved. You don't show up delivering pizzas like this. This. This is pretty awful. Also, there was blood found, as we mentioned, on the front, and we do have a sod on that to show. Brian Enten did some good investigative report to show the blood is still there. I think you can just walk up and just take videos of. Let's just play SOT3. Check that out. Yeah, you can just walk right up and just take that video. And that's scary because, you know, when you're an older person, 84 years old, and you're bleeding like that, you know, And I also was informed that if, if it's a. I hate to say this, but a dead body can also continue to bleed like that. So there's just, like I said, I don't want to think of the worst, but it's just, it's not good right now. And if you know anything, let's please encourage everyone to speak up and say something and collect the reward or at least do the right thing, because there's a family that's hurting out there right now.

[Ashley Merchant]

Right. Well, and now we've seen President Trump actually threaten the death penalty if they don't come forward. So not only can someone get a reward if they do give some information, but he threatens if she's not returned alive to seek the death penalty. He said in a phone interview that he would want the Justice Department to seek the death penalty if she is killed. And so if she is dead, he would want that. But if she is released unharmed, then perhaps there is a chance, obviously not for them to seek the death penalty. And if someone just gives information, like we talked about earlier on Crime Stoppers, then they don't even have to come forward and give their identity. That's really what we need. So that's what we're really begging folks to do at this point.

[Dave Aronberg]

Yes. Although the decision to seek the death penalty is really statutory. I saw this in Luigi Mangioni case. Right. You can say we're going to seek the death penalty, and then the judge says, no, it doesn't meet the statutory requirements. So I understand where he's coming from. I mean, we're all angry about this, this, and very upset what's going on. But ultimately, the criminal justice system is a criminal justice system. There are rules in place, and the most we can do is just ask people for their help to catch these individuals who did it. So, Ashley, we are going to bring in, in our next segment, private investigator Steve Fisher. Now, I'M excited about this because he can discuss not only this case where he has some really great insights, but also the David investigation on the the poor girl who was found in the car that was registered to him. So we'll talk about that in the next block. Stay tuned.

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[Ashley Merchant]

All right. Welcome back to MK True Crime. Missing Persons. Private investigator Steve Fisher joins us now. You may know Steve's name from the David case. Steve is the private investigator hired to investigate the death of Celeste Rivas Hernandez, the teen found dead in Singer David's Tesla. We'll get to the David case shortly. I can't wait. But first, Steve, let's start with your overall assessment of the Guthrie investigation so far. Can you tell us where you think we're at now and what, what new evidence has come about that, that has you excited that maybe we'll see an end inside of this investigation?

[Steve Fisher]

This, this case is so different than any others. You know, just from the beginning, it doesn't really make much sense. 84 year old woman. I, I do believe it's rant tied to ransom. I don't see any, you know, way if it's a burglary. I mean, I, I'm not, I, I get why people might think that. I just don't see it's just a big risk to take. And, and what do you do with her? Like for what value if you don't know who she is at that point? So, but it's taken so many twists and turns and I feel like we've kind of lost the plot a little bit with how much blame's going on with law enforcement and stuff like that. I understand there's mistakes have been made, but we have plenty of time to do a autopsy on that after the case is over. But, you know, I don't know, I don't know where things stand like TMZ is involved and every, you know, it's just, it, it's just, it's wild. I, I do. The one thing that I just think is so critical is I wish they would put more of this recovered video out because I do think that somebody will see the right angle and, and notice that person because they got some pretty distinctive features. I, I just think if they put a little bit more out there, maybe they could they get that. Unless they've got a DNA match that they're not telling us about. You know, if they got a profile, somebody and they're, they're looking for that, actively looking for that person. But, but this has been a few days now. Like I don't see why they, they don't haven't put it out, you know.

[Ashley Merchant]

Yeah, yeah. Well, we really want to talk to you because you understand this a lot better than we do about this technology, this new technology. So, so just to catch our listeners up, the investigators have used this new Bluetooth technology to detect a pacemaker signal. And they're saying that there's this advanced Bluetooth detection technology as part of the search for her that they, they've essentially used a helicopter that's been flying around in A low grid pattern over the Tucson area, over her home, looking to detect some type of a signal from her pacemaker. There's this specialized equipment that they can use that's capable of identifying nearby Bluetooth enabled devices. Can you tell us about this? Because this is fascinating and I know we've talked about it on this show and it's one of the things that we said, why aren't they doing this? We heard from the very beginning, pacemaker, pacemaker. I didn't know pacemakers had Bluetooth. That's pretty cool. So how does this actually work?

[Steve Fisher]

Yeah, so my background is really search and rescue. That's where I got into missing persons. And, and so this device is called Blue Fly. We used, I used for the first time in a search. Well it was, it was about a year ago, it was still in development I believe at that point. And this search for this guy Hiram, who had, was missing out in the Cleveland National Forest in San Diego County. And they said hey, we got this device. What we're going to do, what it does is detects RF signals from any type of device that's emitting RF speed radio frequency signals. That's so it'll detect phones. And in his case we were looking for a phone phones, AirPods, Air Tags, Smart vacuums, I mean anything that's emitting the seal because they all have a dedicated bands that they're transmitting on and medical devices have a, have a band that they transmit on and specifically pacemakers but they put out a very, very low powered frequency every few minutes. And what it's doing is transmitting to whatever device is around that that's connected to it, the heart rhythm data and, and whatnot. So but it's very, very low frequency because that battery's got to last five to seven years. So because of that the about the furthest range on a phone you can get it very, you can get it from a little pretty low far distance on a Pacemaker it's about 50ft at most. But that doesn't take, that's if a person's out in an open area, if it has to go through walls, it can go through like walls, cement and stuff like that. But then it's really degrading the signal. So the only thing it can't really can't go through is metal and it can't go through water. So the thing the problem becomes you gotta fly these things extremely low, these detectors. And now when we were doing it, searching for cell signals on phones that are powered off but are still emitting a Low frequency Bluetooth signal. They're still flying super low. And, and, but not in this case. It's even in lower. So it's not really made for this use case. I'm all for them using it. I think it's great that they did throw everything at it, but it's not designed to be used in this type of environment really.

[Dave Aronberg]

Oh, I was just gonna say what about using drones instead of like the helicopters?

[Steve Fisher]

And so the blue fly device typically is mounted on, on a drone. It can be mounted on a skip of a helicopter or drone. They prefer drones because there's less interference from the aircraft. And, and, but in a situation like this, normally it's being used in like in, in two case use case scenarios like an, oh like say a forest type area where there's tree canopy. So we got ground searchers down on the ground but we're trying to ping, essentially ping that phone or like a building collapse. So you've got a contained area. You know the probability of the person being in a defined area is very high. And so they're scanning it here in a residential area where you've got drones lose the signal from the controller to the drone very easily. A tree can do it. A roof of a house. So when you're flying a drone really low and you have somebody on the ground, if there's say her house in between, it hits, you know, if you can't get a clear signal to the drone because it's, it's a couple hundred yards off, you know, flying very low and now all of a sudden you got the roof in between, you're going to lose signal and so then it's not effective because you know, and you get problems and also power lines that hurt. If you look at the aerial shots of her house in the backyard, it's got power lines running all through it.

[Dave Aronberg]

So, so the reason why I bring up the drones versus the helicopter was that there was some criticism in the aftermath of the kidnap, alleged kidnapping where if they had deployed some helicopters or drones to use this technology, maybe they could have found or more. And in reality the sheriff said that well he didn't have the personnel for the helicopter. Apparently he had fired the people, didn't have them at the ready and so this looked like a lost opportunity. Would you agree with that?

[Steve Fisher]

So the one that they had, they had put that pilot on a different assignment that was actually for the fixed wing airplane that has the thermal imaging equipment. That's the same type of plane that I fly as well. And yeah, he had he had put that pilot. It takes two people, you know, to, to operate that plane and one pilot and one thermal operator. He had reassigned that person. So it wasn't available to them. It's a very high tech airplane. We use them out here in California all the time for that type of thing. It would have been a huge, could have been a huge help. Although if she's in a car, putting a car wouldn't have made much difference. Right. But yeah, you want it there and then as far as the drones go, because there's been this recent ban on DGI products, which 90% of public safety agencies have. A lot of public safety agencies don't have a drone program anymore because they don't, they don't have their ban. The drones are banned, be in the air now, which is a real problem. And I think that's probably what we're seeing there because we haven't seen any mention of drones in this search.

[Dave Aronberg]

Right.

[Ashley Merchant]

So I'm curious how it works. Yeah. So this, so they're looking for a pacemaker signal. Is it any pacemaker or does this, is it like a phone where it's got a unique number and they can figure out. Just like they could isolate just her pacemaker.

[Steve Fisher]

No. So they can't isolate just her pacemaker. So they're looking for any, really, any, any pacemakers. Anything that's transmitting in that, that frequency. So what you're doing is it's actually picking up all the frequency bands, but then you can filter it down to. Okay, just, just alert me if there's anything in this band, which is the medical device band. And. Okay, but if, you know a person possibly has a phone with them and a pacemaker and maybe has an Apple watch, then you can open it up and then. So. But they're not. I know that it was yesterday. So I was talking about how it can be specific to that device. Yeah, but I know they also claimed that that was their device being used, but it's not. Bluefly came out. Confirm it was theirs. And I knew with Blueflies you can. I don't know of any technology. I don't know how you would be able to determine what that was because that would be encrypted data and previously connected through a WI FI connection. I don't think it would ever happen like that anyway.

[Ashley Merchant]

Gotcha. So it really only helps if she's the only pacemaker around. I mean, otherwise it's.

[Steve Fisher]

If it's.

[Ashley Merchant]

If they're flying this over a hospital and there's tons of pacemakers that doesn't really help.

[Dave Aronberg]

Right, right.

[Steve Fisher]

So the device, no matter how you're using it, is not a device that's meant to be used to fly over cities and try and detect. So. Because, I mean, you know, we're normally looking for phones, so what we'll do is we'll actually pull ground searchers out of the area. So none of their equipment triggers this thing and then do a sweep. And they're not huge areas, same thing in like rubble, like building collapses and stuff like that. They'll use it by hand to try and pick up these signals and everybody shut their equipment off. So it's not meant to like sweep a whole area. It was, you know, when we saw it over the backyard, I think that they were thinking, hey, this person spent 40 minutes here. Is there a small chance she could be in a shallow grave?

[Ashley Merchant]

Oh, yeah, right, right, right.

[Steve Fisher]

Possibly. Because they did spend a long time there and, you know, in case it was missed. So. But I think it was just one of those things like, hey, they're making this available to us, we might as well do a sweep with it.

[Ashley Merchant]

Right, of course.

[Steve Fisher]

And I, I'm glad that they did throw everything at it, you know.

[Ashley Merchant]

Definitely, definitely. Does it show if you're alive or, I mean, would it, it still picks up even if someone's deceased.

[Steve Fisher]

Right. So, so the pacemaker is going to send out a signal until the battery dies, even if the person's deceased, you know, but it's not, since it wasn't connected to the phone any longer, it's, it's, it's not interpreting that data and it's not sending say a, a distress signal to a physician. Like it would be if your heart rhythm all of a sudden stopped or got, went into, you know, VTEC or whatever. But it's still trying, saying, hey, here, here, here's the data. You know, is there anybody there to receive it? And that's, that's the signal that they're looking for from the helicopter. And on foot, I, I believe they used it on, on foot by vehicle as well.

[Dave Aronberg]

So, you know, Steve, you tweeted out something that was interesting recently. You were saying that you were reviewing some search terms and locations. They were run in Google and the search term ransom in the Tucson area showed no activity over a 30 day period until January 31, when four searches were recorded. What's the import of that? Where are you going with that?

[Steve Fisher]

You know, it was just, it was something. It's kind of a new tool that Google has released, let you show for search Terms like when it was run and in what areas. And so I ran a host of, you know, kidnapping or how to kidnap, stuff like that. But ransom all, you know, didn't show any searches in that general Tucson area up until the 31st, which is the night before she was taken. And then there was four searches in an area down south, close to Nogales border. I was running from there. And then of course, once the news broke after February 1st, that really spiked. The searches spiked. But I just thought it was an interesting anomaly. You know, I don't know if there's anything to it, but I just figured, hey, you know, here's another data point maybe to look into. Just like there was a, you know, an airplane that took off at 4:20 in the morning from Tucson and went to Mexico, which is pretty early, you know, departure. So these are just things that I just thought were interesting, you know, data points to maybe take a look at.

[Dave Aronberg]

Yeah, no, thank you. Ashley, if you don't have any more questions about Guthrie, I'd love to ask.

[Ashley Merchant]

Oh, I want to go on. David.

[Dave Aronberg]

David, yes.

[Ashley Merchant]

Yes.

[Dave Aronberg]

So, David D4BD. You know, Steve, you were hired to investigate the David case. Can you talk about that? This was like a homeowner in Hollywood Hills, this mansion. And they wouldn't reveal at first. They hired this impressive private investigator because they want to get information about what happened. And it turns out it was you. So what's up with that?

[Ashley Merchant]

That crazy?

[Steve Fisher]

Yeah. So originally the reason that he brought me on is because when the news broke that, you know, this, that she was found in Tesla and it was registered to David, which was then immediately tied to the house, the owner, who does not live in California, was like, I have no idea who this David is. He's not on my lease. Not. That's not who I lease the property to. And he wasn't really getting any answers from the person he leased it to or from LAPD who had, you know, served a search warrant and taken some of his property. And he was like, I. I need to understand what's going on here. And then when, you know, find out more details, it's 14 year old. And you know, and this has been going on for a while. And he was like, like he's got a. It's not. My client is him and his wife. I say him, but it's both of them that equally disturbed that they've got a child around the same age. And it's just heartbreaking to them. And they don't feel like enough's really honestly Being done. I'm sure there's a lot being done behind the scenes, but they think it's taking a very long time. And then there was some significant, we feel like possible evidence that it was photographed apparently, but wasn't really, I guess it wasn't taken in evidence. And you know, things like the burn cage and chainsaw. You know, we found the camera card that had over 1100 photos on it. And we've, we've given that all to them since, but we don't know. Just playing a significant part of the investigation. But they want answers, you know, they want to know if something happened.

[Ashley Merchant]

Yeah, I imagine.

[Steve Fisher]

No, I mean, they're like, you know, if, if a young girl like that died in our house, I mean, one they want. They've never said one thing to me about like, oh, loss of value of the house or you know, can we rent it again? They've just been like one, I don't know if we could enter like actually go in that house again if, if a young girl lost her life in there. But it might be a matter of they knocked the thing down or whatever. But second is like if, if they don't have all this potential evidence and like he. They feel that like we have an obligation to make sure they have it. And if they're not going to deal with us directly, then if we have to do it through public channels, then we'll do it through public channels and also keep the case alive. And that's kind of what it's all about.

[Ashley Merchant]

So. Interesting. Yeah, yeah, I thought it was interesting how you said that essentially you were using non traditional means to get things that maybe they missed in a search warrant. I mean, I think that was so interesting, tracking down surveillance footage. You know, like you're talking about the burn cage. I mean, so many things that they missed. It kind of makes us worried about the credibility of their investigation. But I'm glad that they hired you. I'm glad you were involved. And now, you know, it sounds like this case may be in front of a grand jury. I mean, we're finally getting some reports that there is a case. It says the underlying cases, the people of the State of California versus David Burke. You know, David. David. Dave Ford, D.V. his name. I mean, it sounds like there actually is a case. So hopefully some of that information helps. And we're getting reports that David's father has filed what's called a writ of habeas corpus, a petition for writ of habeas corpus, which, you know, that's just Latin for Bring me the body. That's what it means. People always wonder what is writ of habeas corpus means? It's Latin for bring me the body. And it's essentially the fail safe. Whenever you have anything that you, any grievance legally has to do with your person, you appearing somewhere, not appearing somewhere, being held, that's kind of the catch all. But he's claiming that he was summons to testify in California and doesn't want to go. Have you, Steve, have you had any interaction with any of the family, David's family, or, or just strictly investigation of the scene?

[Steve Fisher]

No, I, I haven't. It's, I'll tell you, both his family and Celeste's family are staying unbelievably quiet. Unbelievable.

[Ashley Merchant]

Interesting.

[Steve Fisher]

And David himself, like here's a guy who self admittedly says he grew up on the Internet. The fact that he's had this ability for over five months to stay quiet and not say anything and follow.

[Commercial Announcer]

Right.

[Steve Fisher]

Clearly follow his attorney's advice is kind of shocking to me. I know his attorneys like listen, don't say word but you would think a 21 year old kid who's being accused all this at some point would pop off. You know, especially when he's probably been sitting in the same spot for a long time and not going out and doing things and, but he has. And you know what the other thing is his friends really haven't either. Talked to a couple people, but not people that are super close and they've done a good job too and they've tried to, to circumvent these subpoenas as well. It hasn't worked out that great but. And it's not just David's father. We find out his mom and his brother also filed the same thing. So everybody's staying extremely quiet. His management, I, I just hope something breaks very soon. And in, you know, to your point earlier, you're talking about, you know, it's about using different means. You know, somebody, I will say from the law enforcement, prosecution side of things asked me, you know, why I was taking some of this stuff public. And you know, the answer is as a private investigator I don't have subpoena power. Like.

[Dave Aronberg]

Right.

[Steve Fisher]

I don't, I don't have the ability to write a warrant like law enforcement or prosecutors have. Yep. So sometimes I have to dog whistle to certain people and let them know that I know certain things and, and maybe come talk to me to, to clarify those things. And you know what? Every single time I get somebody that calls me and as it so I'm not just blindly going out there and saying, look what I found. I have a lot more information than what I've disclosed. I'm not, I'm doing it strategically because there's certain people that I want to say, hey, here's an opportunity, like if you got, you know, to talk to me. And oftentimes they do or somebody they know does, it says, hey, I've got this. I just want to remain anonymous. And some people just aren't willing to talk to law enforcement.

[Ashley Merchant]

Oh, you are. You're my spirit animal. This is, this is the lane I live in, you know, investigator. It's the, the people that don't want to talk to law enforcement. Things that law enforcement doesn't pay attention to to. That is where I live. I totally get it. And you find so much stuff if.

[Steve Fisher]

It'S not like in the manual. There's literally in the detective manual they go. I mean they're following a process, same process every single time. And you know, listen, it's, it's a new day and age. I mean there's things you got to like out of the box things you got to look at, you know, like going back to the Kylie Rodney case. I don't know if you guys ever follow that. But like when I found the fire cameras that showed on infrared, we're driving in the lake, you know, there's just different ways of finding things now. And it's like everything's got some, you know, just like we find. And this is probably going to be an issue for Google, I imagine, but it ends up non subscription based. Nest cameras really are recording, you know, and they're storing that data. So there are, there are ways of getting it. It's just, but it takes a little work and I understand detectives are overloaded with stuff, but you know, they, they love the really not private investigators and, and defense lawyers. Yeah. You're not law enforcement, you know. Well, true, but we do some interesting.

[Ashley Merchant]

Things and we're trying to find the truth usually just like they are, you know, we just have a different, different version of the truth that we believe. But I, I live in the same exact place that you live. And it's amazing how much just basic canvassing and just talking to people, just literally interacting with humans matters in law enforcement, they go out all, you know, decked out, scary and nobody wants to talk to them and they just don't let me.

[Steve Fisher]

I'll give you a perfect example of that when you're talking about canvassing and stuff. So. And you would think that this is absolutely couldn't happen. But the house directly across the street, like the Tesla used to park on the street in front of this. The house across the street, It's a very large house. It's owned by somebody that's well known and it's not their primary residence. And they have an estate manager and so long for. And I have the video of this. Law enforcement did, detectives did come by, I think on the like 12th, so before it was announced it was her. And they buzzed the gate and said, hey, we're looking for surveillance for a homicide investigation. And they, and they were at the house out of state. They're talking, they're like, well we're not in state right now, but I'll. They'll have the IT person look for. So which they did have this person look for, but then didn't hear back from the detectives. And I think they played phone tag or whatever and then. But they had already had a scheduled upgrade of the security system scheduled. And so like the 24th of the month, nobody come got stuff yet. So they took the 8 terabyte drive out and replaced it with a new 24 terabyte. But once you take the air terabyte out of this particular system, it's. You can never, you can never view the files on it again. So 8 terabytes of data of a camera pointing directly at.

[Ashley Merchant]

Oh my God.

[Steve Fisher]

It was in. Is gone.

[Ashley Merchant]

Oh my God.

[Steve Fisher]

Yeah. You know, they're not gonna be happy that I disclosed that, but I don't care because these are the type of things that like Celeste, we gotta do this for Celeste.

[Ashley Merchant]

And her family deserves to know. I mean, can you imagine her parent.

[Commercial Announcer]

Yes.

[Dave Aronberg]

14 year old Celeste Rivas Hernandez. We should say her name. And the fact that the family of David is clamming up and that, that just looks bad. I mean if they don't want to talk before a grand jury, they could take the fifth if it's gonna self incriminate. But it seems like they're just trying to prolong the agony for this poor girl's family by saying it does.

[Ashley Merchant]

But Dave, I will tell you, I'll challenge you on that one a little bit because this is one thing that makes me mad about folks about what law enforcement does. So they have challenged it, but they said they didn't say they didn't want to testify. They said they want to see their statements, they want to see their affidavits. And law enforcement's not willing to do that. Let me just tell you, if you called me and subpoenaed me in front of a grand jury. I thought, I want to see my statement. I want to see it because you know what, I don't remember everything exactly. And I don't want people tricking me because you know, everybody knows that's what people do. And why not let the witness see their statement? You know, that seems like a simple request, but I can tell you that happens all the time. Cops call me all the time and say, I want to re interview your client. Well, can I see the first interview? No. Well, you're not going to re interview my client.

[Dave Aronberg]

They got the statements. It just was part partly redacted. Right. So they want to see the full affidavits.

[Ashley Merchant]

I would too. And if I were their lawyer, I'd say get, you want me, that's fine. Give me the full statement.

[Steve Fisher]

Well, I think, I think it's fair enough too. But then when coupled with other things like they transferred all the assets into a trust that the mom's now the trustee on, you know, these are things that like we put together, it's kind of like, okay, we know what you're on. It's not the great greatest optics. And, but the thing is, is that, you know, and, and certainly if, if this starts going through trial process, they're, they're going to drag Celeste Rivas Hernandez hard. And the thing is, is that I don't care if she's a runaway. I don't care if she's a difficult kid. Like she's 14. Well, she was 13 when this started. 13, 14 year old kids. You know what? That is part of the growing up process and that happens. And, and if, if it's really out of your control, then there are, are processes through the state and stuff that you can tap into. But you just, you can't say, well, you know, she kept running away and it's kind of her fault. Listen, she is not of age consent and it's not just like sexual consent. It's like she, she's not of age to make these type of decisions and, and because she's not mature enough. And so I hope they don't, we don't see this like throwing it back on her. Like, oh, well, you know, she, she just kept going back there. Well, she kept going back there because, yeah, that's, yeah, he's a musician living in a mansion. Of course she's going to get lured out, right?

[Ashley Merchant]

I hope they know better than to throw it on her. 100.

[Steve Fisher]

Yeah, I hope so.

[Ashley Merchant]

You know, Steve, this is amazing. Thank you so much for being here. Please promise you'll come back, especially when we have more David stuff. I'm like obsessed with this case, so I hope you'll come back. But thank you so much. And next we've got your questions and our closing arguments. Stay tuned.

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[Dave Aronberg]

Welcome back to MK True Crime. We'll get to our closing arguments, but first we have a question from Mary Jo. Mary Jo asked. Yes, she says, I have a question from a book I was recently reading called Framed Astonishing True Stories of Wrongful Convictions by John Grissom and Jim McCloskey. In the book, I was blown away by how the cases were handled, but what struck me even more was how the juries convicted these individuals. What are some tips on guidance and how to be an impartial juror? What exactly is reasonable doubt? You never know when that jury selection letter is coming in the mail. Thank you, Mary Jo. Ashley, why don't you.

[Ashley Merchant]

I love Mary Jo. Mary Jo, this makes me happy. This is literally. I have dreams about this, this argument, and talking to jurors like you who care and want to know what reasonable doubt is, I'm thrilled to answer this. The one thing I would say more than anything, though, is stand by your convictions. And I'll talk about that in a few minutes in closing arguments. But a lot of times people get pushed around in jury selection. A lot of times people get pushed around when they're trying to vote on a jury issue, you know, on a verdict, and it becomes really tense in there. Reasonable doubt is something, though, that you can't really put a finger on, but it's something that you just feel when you're in it. And it's something, to me, I always explain it as it's an unanswered question. It's something that you think the state should have explained. And I'm sure Dave has a very different view from his days of prosecution. But I always view it as a question that you want answered that hasn't been answered by the state, because to me, if you're going to send someone to prison, most of the time, you're looking at the rest of their life. And I think that's important because jurors don't really know what the punishments are. You only get to pick if they're guilty or not guilty. You don't get to pick the punishment. And folks don't know that when they're serving on a jury. So a lot of times they think, well, they kind of proved it and they'll figure it out in sentencing. Nope, they won't. So if you have a doubt, any type of doubt, a doubt you can put a finger on, a doubt you can think about. That is what I would consider a reasonable doubt.

[Dave Aronberg]

Well, that's a criminal defense lawyer perspective. But as a prosecutor, we say the doubt has to be reasonable. And the example I use during jury selection is just say that a person's on trial for stealing a computer, and his explanation is that I was walking down the sidewalk and a computer fell from an apartment building. Like outside the window and I caught it and that's how I got the computer. So is that possible?

[Steve Fisher]

Sure.

[Dave Aronberg]

Is it reasonable? No way. So there is a difference between doubt and a reasonable doubt. But this is a great question, Mary Jo. And one last thing on that. When you are a juror, make sure you follow the evidence in the law. Although jury nullification is always allowed, it's not encouraged. You're not supposed to do it, but it's highly encouraged if you're a defense lawyer. Right. Jury nullification is when you say, like, hey, I know what the evidence says. I know that the person, person is guilty, but I just don't want to see this person incarcerated. So, yeah, we prosecutors hate that. It's, it's our worst nightmare. Ashley, I guess you love it though.

[Ashley Merchant]

Of course I love it.

[Dave Aronberg]

Well, thank you for your question, Mary Jo. And it's a good segue to our next discussion about the Corey Richards case. A 12 person jury has been selected in the murder trial of Corey Richards. You remember Corey Richens? That's the mom in Utah who went on TV to talk about grief. She had written a book about the death of her beloved husband. Turns out she may have caused her husband's death. She previously allegedly tried to poison him and then she was able to successfully poison him the second time, allegedly. And is now on trial for his murder, among other crimes. And so now we finally have a jury. And as I believed all along, it wasn't that hard to find a jury. Know that, you know, some of the jurors said they knew about the case, but that's not enough to bounce someone. You, you can put aside what you know, put aside your biases and just follow the evidence in the law. And that's what's happening here. So I'm not surprised. I'm looking forward to this trial. It's definitely going to be must see tv. Ashley, what's your take?

[Ashley Merchant]

You know, I wasn't surprised either because, and I've picked cases that have had a lot of national attention and you think going in that it's a lot harder to select a jury than it is. And what, you're not looking for jurors that haven't heard about the case because you know that's not possible. You're looking for jurors that have already made up their mind one way or another. And I know for me personally, I'm looking for jurors to learn where they got their news source from, where they learned about the case, because we all know there's different Slants to way that cases are presented. And I want them to commit that they are not already making up a decision and that they are going to have open ears, open minds, open hearts during the jury trial. So, you know, I'm looking forward to covering this case with you. I can't wait to bring coverage and see what happens.

[Dave Aronberg]

Yeah, same. We'll keep monitoring it here on MK True Crime. So let's go to our final closing statements. Ashley, I know you've got a good one.

[Ashley Merchant]

I do, you know, and it was based on something that we talked about earlier. One of our questions we had. We have great, great questions. And I love it when we get these questions from, from viewers, especially when they ask us about the law, because I like to talk about it. One of the things that we had today was asking what do I do if I'm on a jury, you know, about reasonable doubt? And I had to bite my tongue a little bit when I was responding to that question because I wanted to save some of it for my one minute closing argument. And I want to talk about a unanimous verdict. And you mentioned, Dave earlier, something about jury nullification. And we hear that term a lot. And this is not about jury nullification. This is about something different. Different. And anybody who's ever watched, you know, the, the old classic 12 Angry Men, you know, has seen this, this dynamic in a jury room and how it works and these holdouts. And I always talk to jurors about this. There is a jury charge. It's, I like to call it everyone's dirty little secret. Nobody wants to talk about it. But there's a jury charge that says if you reach a verdict, it has to be unanimous, but you don't have to reach a verdict. And nobody likes to talk about that because nobody wants what's called a hung jury. I don't want a hung jury either, quite frankly. I want a straight not guilty. But if the government has not proven the case against my client, I'll take a hung jury any day. Because if I can convince even one of those people that the government hasn't proven their case, my client is still not guilty in the eyes of the law. So I want to tell jurors, potential jurors, people like our viewer who wrote us about this, that you do not not have to find a verdict. The law in this country is that you do not have to give up any convictions that you have when you believe that someone is not guilty. If you believe that the state has not proven their case beyond a reasonable doubt, you still have Unanswered questions. It's your duty to stand by that verdict. You are not supposed to give in, just the fact. And judges don't like this and they're going to strong arm you. We have this thing called the Allen charge. And if you ever serve on a jury and God forbid you can't reach a verdict, you're going to get this strong arm charge. It's called the Allen charge. And the judge is going to bring you out and say you're the greatest jury ever. I know you guys can decide this and you're going to get the wink, wink. And you know everybody's going to say, we spent a lot of time and money trying this case and you are by far the best jury ever. If any jury could ever decide this case, it's you all. And what does it mean? It is really designed to get the. If it's 11 to 1, get those 11 to strong arm that one. If it's 10 to 2 to get those 10 to strong arm those two, my ask to you all is don't let them strong arm you. When you see people, when you see jurors back there, they are fighting. They are fighting for the not guilty verdict. And it's okay to not reach a verdict. It's okay to have a hung jury. You do not have to give in. So that's my rant for today. I just wanted to educate everyone a little bit on what the Allen charge was and what a hung jury really meant.

[Dave Aronberg]

Actually, that was great and very educational.

[Steve Fisher]

Thanks.

[Dave Aronberg]

I'm going to go in a different direction. I'm going to talk about Pilates. Are you a Pilates person, Ashley?

[Ashley Merchant]

I actually am. I did Pilates yesterday morning. I love Pilates.

[Dave Aronberg]

I mean, women love Pilates. And for Valentine's Day, my wife, who teaches Pilates, gave me my first private instruction in this popular exercise. So don't laugh, guys. We need to stop pretending that Pilates is just for women. I walked into that studio feeling confident and I limped around the next morning, soaring places I didn't even know existed. There was this mat workout called Seal that I couldn't do. And I can't even describe to you, my favorite part was my wife, though, created a playlist with some of my favorite songs. So for the first time in recorded history, a Pilates studio was blasting the legendary Canadian Prague rock trio Rush. From the popular Red Barchetta to the more obscure Middletown Dreams, my brain was in heaven while my legs were in hell. It's a well known fact that Rush's Music often makes women rush out of the room. So I would bet the mortgage that Getty Lee's high pitched vocals had never before graced those walls. But it won't be the last time because I'm ready for the next round. So here's my challenge for the guys listening and watching. Get over yourselves and try it. There are classes just for men out there. If I can survive an hour long core and legs workout on some weird torture device called a reformer, you can buy a pair of sticky socks and step out of your comfort zone too. It's a life lesson that extends beyond Pilates. Try something new, get a little sore and find a skill you didn't know you had. Now, Ashley, I heard you chuckling a little bit there because, Dave, I love.

[Ashley Merchant]

You for this one. I have a reformer in my basement and my husband bought it for me and he's like, what is this torture device? The fact that you were on a reformer. I hope that everyone listening goes and Google's reformer and you will learn it is a badass workout.

[Dave Aronberg]

It is.

[Ashley Merchant]

So high five to you.

[Dave Aronberg]

Thank you. Thank you. I'm glad because I was impressed and apparently the videos on.

[Steve Fisher]

Oh, it's hard.

[Dave Aronberg]

Yeah, we have these push you fall off the reformer. I did not fall off.

[Ashley Merchant]

Oh, well, good job.

[Dave Aronberg]

I was just glad my fingers didn't get stuck. I mean, that fingers, it goes back and forth on springs and I just see like the lawsuit in Casey and I came on MK True crime with like four fingers.

[Ashley Merchant]

But that's awesome. Good for you.

[Dave Aronberg]

Thank you. Thank you, Ashley. And thank you for our guest, Steve Fisher and to my co host, Ashley Merchant. You see you got me off a clem. Thank you all for joining us. Have a great week. We'll see you next time.

[Ashley Merchant]

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