SHOCK Testimony in Hawaii Doctor Trial, Savannah Guthrie Speaks About Mom’s Disappearance, and Former Cop Kelsey Fitzsimmons Found Not Guilty, with Tony Brueski

Summary

MK True Crime Podcast – Episode Summary

Episode: SHOCK Testimony in Hawaii Doctor Trial, Savannah Guthrie Speaks About Mom’s Disappearance, and Former Cop Kelsey Fitzsimmons Found Not Guilty, with Tony Brueski
Date: March 27, 2026
Host: Dave Ehrenberg (with Phil Holloway, Tony Bruski, and guest clips)

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Episode Overview

This episode dives into three major true crime developments:

• The Hawaii doctor’s attempted murder trial with shocking witness testimony.
• Savannah Guthrie’s public statements as the search for her missing mother continues.
• The not guilty verdict in the high-profile cop-on-cop shooting trial of Kelsey Fitzsimmons, with guest analysis from Tony Bruski.

The hosts provide legal analysis, discuss defense strategies, examine mental health and law enforcement protocols, and reflect on emotional testimony and the challenges posed by ambiguous evidence.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Hawaii Doctor Attempted Murder Trial

Main Storyline:
A Hawaii doctor is on trial for allegedly attempting to murder his wife, Ariel, by shoving her toward a cliff and attacking her with a lava rock, possibly also attempting to inject her with an unknown substance. The case revolves around the distinction between aggravated domestic violence and attempted murder.

Key Moments & Evidence

• Nature of the Attack: The husband, Gerhart, was angry over suspicions of “emotional infidelity.”
• Defense Argument: Admits to assault but denies intent to kill; seeks lesser offense.
• Prosecution Argument: Points to severity and context—using a deadly weapon, repeated blows to the head, and alleged attempt with a syringe.

Notable Testimony & Quotes

• On Marital Problems:
  Ariel (Victim):
  “He logged into my WhatsApp account and saw that I was deleting text messages... Called me a lying bitch. You're a whore.” (05:39)
• Attack Description:
  Ariel:
  “He grabbed me really forcefully by my upper arms. And he said, ‘I'm so sick of this, get back over there.’ And he starts pushing me back towards the cliff.” (10:41)
• Bystander Identification:
  Amanda Norris (Eyewitness):
  “She was saying, ‘Help me, help me. He's trying to kill me.’” (13:45)
• Attempted Injection:
  Ariel:
  “He was gripping his hand closed really hard and there's a vial in his hand... He’s telling me, ‘Shut the fuck up. Nobody’s gonna hear you out here. Nobody’s coming to save you.’” (15:18)
• On Missing Evidence:
  The defense points out the absence of a syringe, but the hosts note the defendant vanished for eight hours, plausibly disposing of evidence (16:27).
• Analysis on Rock as Deadly Weapon:
  Phil Holloway:
  “If you use [an object] offensively in that way and it causes serious injury, I think that that is per se indicative of an intention to kill.” (18:00)
• Hosts’ Conclusion:
  Both hosts agree a conviction on attempted murder is likely:
  Dave Ehrenberg: “That rock could cause real damage. So we’ll leave it there. ...I’m anticipating a guilty verdict.” (20:06)

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2. The Dayton Weber (Quadruple Amputee) Murder Case

Story:
Dayton Weber, a quadruple amputee and professional cornhole player, is charged with murder in Maryland. Discussion centers on the practical questions due to his disabilities and the circumstances alleged by police.

• Hosts’ Reactions:
  • Doubt and curiosity about how a quadruple amputee could drive a vehicle, wield a firearm, and dispose of a body unassisted (24:31–25:10).
  • Phil Holloway: “How does a quad amputated person drive a car, pull a trigger and drop someone in a front yard with two others in the back seat and have zero help?” (25:10)
  • Case still under investigation with many unanswered questions.

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3. The Kelsey Fitzsimmons Cop-on-Cop Shooting Trial

Storyline:
Former Massachusetts police officer Kelsey Fitzsimmons was acquitted in a bench trial of assaulting another officer with a firearm, following a dramatic incident during a mental health crisis.

Key Moments & Analysis

• Judge’s Verdict:
  Judge:
  “...I am left with a reasonable doubt and I am duty bound to...find that the Commonwealth has not met its burden...My verdict is...not guilty." (30:21)
• Guest Expert Analysis:
  Tony Bruski:
  “A lot of things in this case can...be true at the same time.... The bigger picture in this case is...the psychological end of it, the mental health end... How do we handle these sort of crises in our country?” (31:28)
• Reality of Bench Trials:
  • Phil Holloway:
    “If you have somebody that looks like a really, really terrible guy... maybe you stand a better chance of selling it to a judge versus to...12 people.” (07:02)
  • Tony Bruski:
    “You’re really rolling the dice on... jurors... I think when they went to the judge, they knew the judge is gonna have far more experience in that lane...” (38:56)
• Emotional Testimony:
  • Fitzsimmons (on stand):
    “I knew if I pulled out my firearm in front of a police officer, I would get shot. That was not my intention, and that’s not what I did.... I wanted to kill myself. Me and my gun. No one else involved.” (40:46–41:35)
  • On being shot: “I’m a fucking idiot. I just tried to kill myself with an unloaded gun. I’m a fucking idiot.” (47:15)

Notable Discussions

• On Mental Health Protocols:
  Tony Bruski: “Can we go in and handle this in a more sensitive way so we're not setting everybody up for all the fireworks to go off at once, especially if we're not going to document it with a body Cam?” (32:54)
• On Prosecution’s Approach:
  Dave Ehrenberg:
  “The prosecution leaned into her being a liar... At the same time, you can see how in her mind, she believes it’s unloaded... but she was in severe mental distress...” (44:55)
• Jury vs Judge:
  Strong debate about whether Fitzsimmons might have fared better (or worse) with a jury instead of a judge.

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4. Savannah Guthrie Speaks About Her Missing Mother (Nancy Guthrie)

Storyline:
Savannah Guthrie appears publicly to plea for answers in her mother’s disappearance and shares new details about the investigation.

Key Moments

• Savannah’s Raw Emotion:
  “Someone needs to do the right thing. We are in agony. It is unbearable. And to think of what she went through. I wake up every night in the middle of the night...and in the darkness, I imagine her terror.” (51:02)
• Evidence Details:
  • Doors propped open at the house (52:56)
  • Blood on the front doorstep and missing ring camera (52:56)
• Kidnapping Theory:
  • Savannah references two ransom notes she considered credible (54:03)
  • Tony Bruski: “I’d love to know why...she thinks those were legit. ...That’s a question I’d love to know the answer to.” (54:35)
• Disturbing Imagery:
  • Savannah believes her mother woke up to the masked person seen on a nearby Ring camera (56:11–56:55)
• Host Reflection:
  • Tony Bruski:
    “That’s the hardest thing... it’s the not knowing. ...your mind just runs and it runs with the horror of what we know exists and then it tries to combine it with what we don't know.” (57:12)
• Ongoing Uncertainty: No resolution, more questions than answers.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments (with Timestamps)

• On intent and jury psychology:
  “He tried to beat up his wife, but he’s not a murderer. I think that goes over better with a judge as opposed to 12 jurors.” — Dave Ehrenberg (07:50)

• Eyewitness drama and court procedure:
  “Look around the whole courtroom and tell me if you identify him here. Okay. You know, please. Is he there? Yes, he’s there. He’s the guy put on trial.” — Dave Ehrenberg (14:46)

• On size of weapon:
  “You can beat somebody to death with a medium sized rock. A small rock.” — Phil Holloway (19:29)

• On prosecution and legal standards:
  “When AI hallucinates plausible sounding but non existent cases, it turns justice into a slot machine.... AI is not a lawyer.” — Phil Holloway (67:07–68:17, Closing Argument)

• On public empathy and viral stories:
  “The story was faked, but our reaction was not. ...The story was not real. But our empathy is.” — Dave Ehrenberg (70:31)

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Important Segments & Timestamps

• Hawaii Doctor Attempted Murder Trial: 01:04 – 20:06
• Dayton Weber Quadruple Amputee Case: 22:12 – 26:51
• Kelsey Fitzsimmons "Cop-on-Cop" Trial & Analysis: 29:57 – 48:57
• Savannah Guthrie’s Public Appeal (Missing Mom): 48:57 – 58:06
• Closing Arguments (AI in Law, Empathy in Digital Age): 62:11 – 71:47

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Overall Tone and Style

Lively, incisive, and sometimes irreverent. The hosts use humor and skepticism alongside legal analysis, especially around odd courtroom moments and the bizarre details of certain cases. Emotional testimony and empathy for the victims and those suffering mental health crises are given significant weight, and the podcast closes with heartfelt reflections about truth, empathy, and the risk of losing touch with reality in the digital age.

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Final Thoughts

This episode offered a compelling mix of legal drama, deep analysis of ambiguous evidence, emotional impact from those closest to the cases, and larger reflections on justice, mental health, and public empathy. The addition of Tony Bruski brought expert perspective on trial strategy and the realities of true crime coverage.

A must-listen for those interested in the complexities of modern criminal cases, the gray areas of justice, and the real human costs of crime and public tragedy.

Transcript

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[Dave Ehrenberg]

Welcome to MK True Crime. I'm Dave Aronberg, former state attorney for Palm Beach County, Florida and current managing partner of Dave Ehrenberg Law. Here's what's on the docket today. A wild murder case out of Hawaii is underway this week. A doctor is on trial after he allegedly tried to kill his wife while they were on a hiking trail on her birthday. We'll bring you the details. Savannah Guthrie is speaking out and revealing more information surrounding her mom Nancy's disappearance. We'll give you the latest from her Today show interview. And the cop on cop shooting trial of former Massachusetts police officer Kelsey Fitzsimmons ended in a not guilty verdict. We'll do a full recap of the bench trial with our guest today, Tony Bruski, host of the Hidden Killers podcast and show. I'm joined today by my co host Phil Holloway, criminal defense lawyer, former prosecutor and former police officer. Phil, let's dig into this trial out of Hawaii. I mean, hey, this one is, it's pretty weird because you have a husband who got mad at his wife because of allegations of infidelity and then wanted her to take a selfie on this narrow path on this hike in the, on these rocks. And she was like, I'm not gonna go over there. And then apparently he starts beating her with a rock. And so he's being charged with attempted murder. And I guess his defense is, well, it was domestic violence but not attempted murder, which is a much more serious offense that can get him a life in prison. What's your take Phil.

[Phil Holloway]

Well, so you know this. There's a lot to unpack in this case. And you're right, it's. It's interesting because his defense was, okay, I did it, but I wasn't trying to kill her. It wasn't an attempted murder. I was just trying to beat the crap out of her. That's. That's sort of the way the defense is going. They're trying to get to this class C felony, Dave, which carries only up to five years. But interestingly, in Hawaii, if you. If you murder somebody, it's a life sentence. If it's an attempted murder, it's also a life sentence. So there's some pretty strong evidence in this case. And you mentioned that this whole thing is in the nature of domestic violence, and it's sort of grounded in allegations of infidelity, but it's not the kind of infidelity that we traditionally think of, Dave. This was allegations of emotional infidelity. This is texting with someone on WhatsApp or something like that. No physical contact between the wife and the. I guess emotional paramour is the only way to put it. They. But they were trying to reconcile. That was what the wife believed. And so they go out there to Hawaii, and they're on this hiking trail, and as you mentioned, you know, she says, look, I think I've had enough. I want to go back down. He says, let's take a selfie. And I guess to get to the nuts and bolts of it, he allegedly pushes her down and attempts to start beating her with a lava rock. And according to her, is trying to inject her with something. And of course, he's an anesthesiologist who has access to all of these things. So it's. It's quite the compelling set of facts. Dave, I'm sure you never had anything like this prosecuting down in Florida, because you just don't have these kind of cliffs, but this is really something.

[Tony Bruski]

Yeah.

[Dave Ehrenberg]

And, you know, the defense is trying to get the text messages from the victim to try to see if she really did have an affair. And why is that relevant? Because she said that she had an emotional affair with a married guy in the state of Washington. They never met. They were separated by a huge body of water. And if she's lying about that, the defense is saying, well, if she's lying about that, then, you know, she must be lying about this entire encounter.

[Phil Holloway]

Or exaggerating. Yeah, I mean, exaggerating so that she can maybe get to her. Get rid of her husband, get him out of the way get him sent off to prison and have all of the emotional relationships or otherwise that she might want to have. In fact, Dave, if you don't mind, I'll go ahead and call for SOT1, which is the wife, Ariel, testifying about the marital problems that they had that led up to this attack.

[Prosecutor]

Were you having any marital problems before this happened on March 24, 2025?

[Ariel (Wife/Victim)]

Yes, we were.

[Prosecutor]

What happened to start those problems?

[Ariel (Wife/Victim)]

Sure. In December, the year prior, Gerhart had gone through my. Well, he logged into my WhatsApp account and saw that I was deleting text messages between a co worker and I. And he got upset about that when we were on vacation and he came into our hotel room and asked for my cell phone and then came back in a little bit later and told me, you know, like, I see what's on WhatsApp. And he was. I mean, he was really angry, very upset. Called me a lying bitch. You're a whore. You know, how could you do this sort of thing?

[Prosecutor]

Phil, who were you Messaging with on WhatsApp that caused this confrontation?

[Ariel (Wife/Victim)]

It was a co worker from Terra Power. His name is Jeff Miller.

[Prosecutor]

Did you ever have sex with Jeffrey Miller?

[Ariel (Wife/Victim)]

No.

[Dave Ehrenberg]

Well, okay, so that's why they asked about that. That's where they're going. Phil, what do you think the fact that no matter what, no matter what the truth is about the intent of the defendant, he still is a bad guy for beating his wife with a rock? I mean, so the jury is not going to like him. So as a defense lawyer, don't you think that that's going to taint the jury enough that they'll be like, why are we doing this guy a favor? Maximum punishment for a guy we hate?

[Phil Holloway]

You know, we were talking about this Fitzsimmons case that we're going to get into later, which is a bench trial. And I was wondering when I was doing the show prep for this show, Dave, I was wondering, you know, would it be a. Maybe a reasonable defense strategy? Because they're essentially not contesting that he beat her. This is all about what his intent was at the time. So if you're trying to sell this, maybe. Maybe you stand a better chance of selling it to a judge versus to. Versus 12 people. I don't know the answer to that question, Dave. Maybe you know better than me, but it's just an alternative strategy that sometimes you might see defense lawyers taking when they essentially do not deny that their client did the act that he's accused of.

[Dave Ehrenberg]

That is such a good point. Phil. Because when we talk about the Fitzpatrick case later, we'll talk about the decision to seek a bench trial, a judge, and suppose of 12 jurors. Normally a defense wants the jurors they. Jury nullification is a real thing where all it takes is one juror who just. I'm not going to send that nice person to prison, even though the evidence tells me that he's guilty. And that's the type of thing that goes on with jury nullification. All you need is one and then it's a hung jury. But here I think you're right. I actually think that this type of defense is, yeah, he's a bad guy. He, he tried to beat up his, his wife, but he's not a murderer. I think that goes over better with a judge as opposed to 12 jurors. So that's why I think perhaps maybe they should have asked for a bench trial. Would you have asked for a bench trial in this case if you were the defense lawyer?

[Phil Holloway]

I might, I might. But, you know, it's, it's, it's a double edged sword because if you're the defense, you have a right to make the state prove your guilt beyond a reasonable doubt to, to the satisfaction of 12 people. Right. Versus just one. So one of the ways of looking at it is you've essentially given the prosecutor an easier path to conviction if you make them prove it only to the satisfaction of one individual in a black robe versus 12 citizens from the community. On the other hand, if you have somebody that looks like a really, really terrible guy. And by the way, while we're talking about this, if we can go ahead, this is, by the way, guys, this is graphic. We have some body camera video that shows what police encountered when they came up on this scene. And you can see that there's, you know, there's blood on this lady's face and, and all this kind of thing, and you see hikers there helping her and, and you know, what we see on the video right here, it's, it's, it's tough to look at, but you see this video and you realize immediately that one way or another, he's cooked. Okay? He, the defendant is cooked. He's going to be convicted of something, at least a class C felony. He's going to prison for at least five years. And I think that you can make the case when you see this video that it's even, I think it's, it's pretty compelling and it probably is going to be enough to convict him of the attempted murder because you know, even, even if all that you have is these type of non deadly wounds, if somebody's beating you on with a rock and people intervene to, to help you and stop the attack in progress, well, I mean, that's, that's to the benefit obviously of the victim because they don't get killed. But it doesn't mean that, that you're not trying the, the defendant's not trying to kill her, if that makes sense.

[Dave Ehrenberg]

Let's play the sot.

[Phil Holloway]

Yeah, well, we got sat too, which is where she says, he grabbed me really forcefully and pushed me towards the cliff.

[Ariel (Wife/Victim)]

When I walk up to him then he grabbed me really forcefully by my upper arms. And he said, I'm so sick of this, get back over there. And he starts pushing me back towards the cliff.

[Prosecutor]

While the defendant was grabbing you and pushing you, what did you do?

[Ariel (Wife/Victim)]

I mean, I was surprised. It felt almost like he was kidding at first. And I was like, what are you doing? But he, he had grabbed me really hard and was moving me. So we kind of wrestled a little bit and I threw myself onto the ground because there's a lot of trees and shrubs there so that I could hold on.

[Phil Holloway]

Now, Dave, she described her injuries as severe injuries that required, you know, stitches to heal the lacerations. But everybody concedes that they weren't life threatening. And the defense is trying to say, look, these were not life threatening injuries, therefore that proves that he wasn't trying to kill her. And to me, that's what we call a non sequitur in law. That doesn't follow.

[Dave Ehrenberg]

Yeah, just because you're not successful doesn't mean you didn't try to kill someone. Right. You don't get the benefit of the doubt that you weren't strong enough to bash your head in with a rock. I mean, he was, according to witnesses, he was hitting her in the head with a rock. Now, how big the rock is matters. And even though these witnesses are, it can be debunked or at least contradicted by saying that, well, you don't know what was in his head at the time because we're talking about, you have to show attempted murder. But if they said they saw him just savagely beating her with a rock, you can then interpret that to mean attempted murder. Because obviously if you try to stab someone with a spoon, it means you're really not trying to kill someone. But if you're stabbing someone with a machete, yes, it means you're trying to kill someone, even if you only have a flesh wound. So all this Stuff is taken into consideration, and we have a sot on that. In fact, where the witness here saw it, it was Amanda Norris sought for. She said that he was hitting her in the head. Let's check this out.

[Prosecutor]

You said you saw the man hitting the woman with a rock. Do you know where he hit her?

[Witness/Amanda Norris]

Looked like in the head.

[Prosecutor]

What was the man wearing?

[Witness/Amanda Norris]

It's like a light whitish gray shirt and blue shorts.

[Prosecutor]

If you were able. If you were to see that man again, would you be able to be able to recognize him?

[Ariel (Wife/Victim)]

Yes.

[Prosecutor]

Could you please take a look around the whole courtroom? And if you see the male that you saw on that day hitting the woman with the rock, could you point him out and let us know article of clothing he's wearing?

[Witness/Amanda Norris]

Yes. This gentleman in the blue.

[Phil Holloway]

Sorry.

[Witness/Amanda Norris]

Gentleman in the blue.

[Prosecutor]

Your honor, let the record reflect the witness has identified the defendant.

[Phil Holloway]

Record will reflect identification.

[Prosecutor]

Okay, Amanda, after you get up to this area, you see the man hitting the woman with the rock. Was the woman saying anything at that point?

[Witness/Amanda Norris]

She was saying, help me, help me. He's trying to kill me.

[Prosecutor]

After the woman said, help me, help me. He's trying to kill me. What did the defendant do?

[Ariel (Wife/Victim)]

They both saw us, and he stopped and stood up.

[Prosecutor]

Did the defendant say anything?

[Witness/Amanda Norris]

No.

[Phil Holloway]

The gentleman, Dave. The gentleman in the blue who just happened to beat the bloody hell literally out of his wife, and if you believe her testimony, attempted to poison her by injecting her with this. Some syringes.

[Dave Ehrenberg]

Yes. And before we get. Because I know we have a side on the syringe, but that's important. But I want to get to something I thought was kind of amusing. They had. The lawyer said, look around the entire courtroom, and you can see her starting left to right to look around the whole courtroom for. You mean the guy sitting in the defendant's chair? Look around the whole courtroom and tell me if you identify him here. Okay. You know, please. Is he there? Yes, he's there. He's the guy put on trial. It's not the.

[Tony Bruski]

It's not.

[Dave Ehrenberg]

Juror number eight is the one hitting the woman in the head with a rock.

[Phil Holloway]

So the surreal thing. Now, I've got a question for you about this, Dave. All right, so you're on the. You're on the jury, right? Let's say you're on the jury and you've seen all the evidence. You've heard the testimony. You've seen the. The bloody body camera video that we showed a few minutes ago, and you hear this testimony where she says that he had this syringe. In fact, let's go ahead and. Let's go ahead and run that. That's S3. Because I got a question for Dave. After the.

[Ariel (Wife/Victim)]

After that, you know, I'm screaming and I'm saying, what the fuck are you doing? Get off me. And he's saying, like, fuck you. You're done. I'm so, so sick of your shit. So done with you. And I'm trying to kind of protect myself and get out of there. But also he's gripping his hand closed really hard and there's a vial in his hand. So I was trying to pry his hand open so I could grab that vial out. Oh, I mean, I'm screaming and he's telling me, shut the fuck up. Nobody's gonna hear you out here. Nobody's coming to save you. And I'm saying, like, you can't do this. Everyone knows we're on a hike. They'll know this wasn't an accident and our kids will be orphans. You'll go to jail and I'll be dead. Like, you have to stop. And again, he's saying, like, you're done. We're done with you. We don't need you anymore. You're done. You're done. And then he just starts hitting my face and my head with Iraq.

[Phil Holloway]

All right, Dave, so look, here's the thing. You heard her talk about this vial, syringe, whatever, and the defense is making some hay or trying to out of the fact that no such vial was located. But you know what else wasn't located? The defendant wasn't located. He tried to evade the police for eight hours. His cell phone was found, turned off in the SIM card removed. So if he can remove himself from the scene, could he not easily also remove the. Any kind of other murder weapons, such as a syringe with him or drop it off the sheer cliff or hide it in the jungle in Hawaii.

[Dave Ehrenberg]

Absolutely. And that's why when you evade police, when you try to hide, it really always comes back to haunt you. It's consciousness of guilt. It's the fact that, yeah, there's no syringe. That's actually a good point for the defense. Except he then disappeared for eight hours and even got rid of his SIM card for his phone. So, yes. Could you envision that he took the syringe with him and disposed of it? Of course. So, yeah, that. That's on him. Doesn't look good for him. You know, I do think they've got a good case here. I just. I still, you know, when you have to show what's in someone's head, it's always a challenge. And I'm wondering about whether the rock was found and brought in, or is that something. There's so many rocks, it's on a cliff. Could they identify the rock? Because I would like to know the size of the rock. I think that matters. Is it a Wild E. Coyote boulder or is it a pebble? I'd like to know.

[Phil Holloway]

Well, it was big enough to cause severe lacerations. I mean, yes, here we have Dave. You know, size matters, of course, in many things, including law. But here's the thing you've got. This is. I would call this an aggravated assault. They don't use that specific legal terminology in Hawaii on this type of assault. But in, in, in the common law, and here, what I practice in Georgia, aggravated assault, you know, an assault with a deadly weapon. And a deadly weapon, Dave, is, Is defined as any object which, when used offensively, is likely to or does cause serious injury or death. Well, whatever he hit her with, however big it was, it caused what I saw on that video, serious injury. And so when you use a deadly weapon, you can, Whether it's a coffee mug, maybe it's like, I'm holding up here my Whiskey Tango foxtrot mug, or if it's a lava rock or a lamp. Any object, if you use it offensively in that way and it causes serious injury, I think that that is per se indicative of an intention to kill. So I think that they have enough to convict. I think they will convict on this attempted murder. And I think he's getting life.

[Dave Ehrenberg]

I've just been told by my intrepid producer, Natasha, that we have a picture of the rock. So let's check this out. This is it. Okay. What do you think, Phil? Big enough to.

[Phil Holloway]

I think it's big enough to cause serious injury or death.

[Dave Ehrenberg]

She.

[Phil Holloway]

He's guilty.

[Dave Ehrenberg]

Okay. I.

[Phil Holloway]

Hey, you can beat somebody to death with a medium sized rock. A small rock.

[Dave Ehrenberg]

Yeah. I. I once had a friend who was upset because he said that this woman got really upset with him in class one day and threw a bottle at him. And I was like, oh, my. That's terrible. She gets suspended. That's awful. He said, oh, no, I'm okay. Everything's okay. I'm like, wow, can you show me the bottle? And he pulled out this empty water bottle like, like from Zephyr Hills or something. I'm like, come on, man. So context matters. That rock could cause real damage. So we'll leave it there. I agree with you, Phil. I'm anticipating a guilty verdict.

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[Dave Ehrenberg]

let's talk about another case. So I'm sure you've heard about the case of Dayton James Weber. He's the quadruple amputee. He's also a professional cornhole player and he's accused of murdering Bradrick Michael Wells. Both of them are 27 years old in Maryland. This is on March 23rd and what's crazy is that you've got the defendant here who became a quadruple amputee at 10 months old. His limbs were removed to save his Life after he had a bacterial infection that led to sepsis and he survived. And he later found a love for cornhole at 8 years old. And he was named the best player in Maryland in 2020. And three years ago, ESPN did a feel good video about him. And now he's facing murder charges. I mean, I'm sorry, but like, this guy is clearly an overachiever in life. He has no limbs and he becomes a national courthole player and somehow he's not being accused of murder. I mean, that's awful. Like, you know, I'm not advising that.

[Phil Holloway]

Look, as strange as it may be. Look, I mean, slot 5 is, is. Is all about Weber doing things that nobody thought he could do.

[Ariel (Wife/Victim)]

People can make choices in their attitude, and I'm glad to see that he still likes to look at the glass half full.

[Phil Holloway]

A chance at a four bagger here for Dayton Webber. And it is good right down the middle.

[Dave Ehrenberg]

I think it's part of what made him survive through all the tough times

[Phil Holloway]

was his ability to fight, push back, not give up. He always looks to be the best.

[Dave Ehrenberg]

It's something I've been doing my whole

[Phil Holloway]

life, is overcoming things that people didn't think that I could do. Yep. And investigators what. What they said he could do. Investigators said that when he was driving his Tesla SUV with three friends, one in the front seat, two in the back. And of course the front seat passenger is also the alleged victim in the case that the investigators say that he shot his friend in the head and then dumped him in somebody's yard. And the question is, what's going on with the. In the back of the car, Dave.

[Dave Ehrenberg]

But wait, he's driving the car. He's a quadruple amputee. He's driving the car, he's pulling out a gun, and then he's disposing of the body himself with.

[Phil Holloway]

Oh, he can shoot. He can shoot.

[Dave Ehrenberg]

Shoot and drive at the same time and dispose of.

[Phil Holloway]

I don't know about. Well, that's, that's the question. Can he do all. But. But we have video S6. This is him loading and shooting a 9 millimeter handgun.

[Dave Ehrenberg]

But how does he do that while driving?

[Phil Holloway]

That's hard. That's hard. I can tell you. Like my days as a police officer in South Georgia Deputy sheriff. We. One time I remember having to try to shoot someone's tires with a shotgun. But I wasn't driving. I was riding shotgun, literally. But I don't think I could have done that while. While also driving. But here's the thing. The. The friends in the back. Right. Supposedly, you know, they had nothing to do with this. That's the, you know, that's the claim. But people are questioning that. Right? What's going on? How does a quad. Someone posted on Facebook, a friend of Weber says, how does a quad amputated person drive a car, pull a trigger and drop someone in a in the front yard with two others in the back seat of the car and have zero help? How, how long was he trying to gain access to the firearm before it was discharged? How long did the other individuals watch him get the gun and take aim? So people are questioning all aspects of this story and we're going to have to watch it here on the show because this is one that's going to be very interesting to see all the twists and turns that this investigation takes.

[Dave Ehrenberg]

Yeah. And apparently the American Cornhole League has issued a statement expressing support for those affected by the crime, saying they would not otherwise comment on an ongoing legal matter. Number one, there's an American Cornhole League. And number two, we really care what they say. They're not going to comment on ongoing. Well, I'm sure we're with bated breath to hear what the American Cornhole League says about this true crime case.

[Phil Holloway]

Now wait a minute. I love cornhole. I love playing in cornhole competitions. So easy. Now this is actually a very serious sport.

[Dave Ehrenberg]

Okay. Yeah, I don't want to offend all the cornhole players out there, so we'll just leave it there. And we've got an amazing guest coming. So you want to stay around for this one. You know, Mr. Brewski is going to join us who's an Internet sensation, Tony Bruski, coming up next here on mk, True crime

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[Phil Holloway]

welcome back to MK True Crime. I'm Phil Holloway along with my co host today Dave Ehrenberg. We breaking news. Earlier this week my other co host Ashley Merchant and I we got into the Kelsey Fitzsimmons trial that's also known as the cop on cop shooting trial. We have breaking news. Kelsey Fitzsimmons has been found not guilty. Let's take a listen and a look at what the judge had to say.

[Judge]

Even if I assume that Ms. Fitz Simmons lied about not wrapping the slide, it does not detract from the adamant and credibility of her testimony that she never pointed the gun at Officer Union about which he was equally as adamant that she did. Perhaps the complement could have easily met this burden that the officers had been wearing body cases. But under these circumstances I am left with a reasonable doubt and I am duty bound to think find that the Commonwealth has not met its burden to prove that Mr. Simmons committed to salt by means of a dangerous weapon on Officer Newly and my verdict is they must be not guilty.

[Phil Holloway]

All right, there you have it. She's not guilty. Want to welcome to the program veteran broadcaster Tony Bruski. Tony, you know, look, buddy, I know that you have been all over this trial, and I want to sort of get your reaction to that verdict.

[Tony Bruski]

Yeah, I mean, I think the judge really summed it up well. Where unusual and somewhat perplexing and finding both of the testimonies from Kelsey and Noonan credible. And that's kind of where I was at this morning when I was doing a piece on it. It was. A lot of things in this case can parallelly be true at the same time. Parallelly, there's a new word. Can be true in parallel lanes at the same time. I truly believe she can believe that she didn't point that gun at him. And maybe she didn't. We don't know the answer to that. No one truly does other than her and him. And I believe he can believe that maybe she did or maybe she was about to point that gun at him. And at the end of the day, it comes down to what way was it pointed. But the bigger picture in this case is the psychological end of it, the mental health end of this thing. And it goes deeper than the case itself. It goes down to the root of how do we handle these sort of crises in our country? How well equipped are we? Some departments astonishingly well, some not at all. And some kind of there kind of here kind of depends on the day, kind of depends on what we're feeling and how we think we're gonna handle it. And this is just, I think, another lesson in many cases that we all see where when we look back on it and we. Monday morning quarterback. Yes. So many things could have been done differently. Could we use this one maybe as a lesson, maybe as a starting point to go deeper into how this department works specifically and maybe how others do too, and really have some sort of protocol in place when someone is having a mental health crisis and we have all the evidence in front of us that shows us she was. She had just gone through one. Can we go in and handle this in a more sen. Sensitive way so we're not setting everybody up for all the fireworks to go off at once, especially if we're not going to document it with a body Cam?

[Phil Holloway]

You know, you made a really good point there, Tony. Dave and I want to ask you about this because Ashley and I on this show on Wednesday of this week, Ashley and I were on the same page. I think we both agreed And I think I heard Tony basically say this. The. The witnesses can. Can both be telling the truth. Okay? The, the officer who is the alleged victim fires the shots. He believes his life is in danger. Okay. So he testifies that he fired on her, shot her in the chest on that basis. And he says that he saw her point the gun at him. She says she didn't do it.

[Dave Ehrenberg]

Now, I don't.

[Phil Holloway]

I didn't see anything in the testimony, guys, that looked like the victim was saying anything that wasn't true. Now, it's possible that he was mistaken in what he saw. And in the absence of a witness, in the absence of a body camera, you just gotta. He said, she said. In, in this legal system, Dave, the tie goes to the defendant, doesn't it? And that's reasonable doubt.

[Dave Ehrenberg]

Yeah. And this is a case in my mind where you have a Monday morning quarterback here because you just don't know. And so you look back and say, well, the only person shot here was the. Was the victim. Was the defendant. Excuse me, the defendant.

[Phil Holloway]

Yeah.

[Dave Ehrenberg]

And so as a result, you know what? No harm, no foul, not guilty. I do think that's where the ex post facto analysis of the case where you're looking back and you're saying, what was the result here? The result here was that one person was shot and she survived and it's the defendant. So what benefit are we going to do putting her in prison now when she got shot in the chest, and we really aren't totally sure who was at fault, but I would bet you that. Obviously. Obviously. Because then you know the intent. If it was the other way around, if the gun goes off, say the gun went off and the officer was shot or in danger, then she'd be found guilty. And I realized then you can put it in her mind, but what if the gun goes off accidentally and no one gets shot? I would also say that it's more likely that the defendant is found guilty. The fact is she was the only one who was shot here. So I think that led to the not guilty verdict.

[Phil Holloway]

Tony, we've got a lot of video from, from this trial, things that we can play for our audience if you tell me what your favorite part of the trial was or most interesting. What do you want to talk about? And I bet we've got some video that can set it up.

[Tony Bruski]

You know, I really think it was her testimony. I have a very specific piece, so I'm going to ask say to your producers, let's find some of the most compelling pieces of testimony her, because When I watched her, I didn't know what I was going to see. And I walked away from that going, wow, that was quite a credible witness. I mean, we've seen many cases where someone gets on the stand, they're telling a story. It almost felt like she had a mantra going on of, I believe that she was telling the ambulance driver, how stupid am I? I shot myself or attempted to kill myself with an unloaded weapon. She said that so many times, over and over, which I thought was interesting. Her whole testimony, though, overall, I felt it to be very credible. It did not come across as someone who was being inauthentic, which is a refreshing thing sometimes in the cases that we watch. But I would say anything from her testimony, I think is some of the most compelling of this whole case.

[Phil Holloway]

Well, let's start with slot seven. This is her talking about Justin, her. The father of her child and ex fiance breaking up with her via service of a restraining order.

[Witness/Amanda Norris]

He obtained a restraining order against me.

[Attorney/Interviewer]

Is it, Is it fair to say that he broke up with you via a restraining order?

[Witness/Amanda Norris]

Yes. I did not speak to him. I realized our relationship was over when a restraining order was handed to me.

[LifeLock Announcer]

Okay,

[Phil Holloway]

Dave, you know, look, I have questions about this restraining order. I. I know that you see this. We see this sometimes in the justice system. We see people using restraining orders to get, I don't know, a legal advantage in either a divorce or some kind of custody. Custody situation. But here these three officers show up and she doesn't know this thing is coming. And they show up and they say, and by the way, here's the restraining order. By the way, get the child's things together, because he's about to go right now with his father. You know, that's. That's the kind of emotional situation that's set up by this.

[Dave Ehrenberg]

Yeah, yeah. I mean, that's where I wonder if we had a jury, if the jury would have sympathized with her. She's the only one who got shot. Her life was crashing. She mentioned in the car afterwards about unloaded gun and. Or she never said she was trying to harm anyone else but herself. And the fact is that, yeah, she's worried about losing her child. She had postpartum depression. You have all these things. And that's why, if I could take in a little different direction here. Do you agree with the decision to go to a bench trial? I recognize that it worked out, but it seems like this is the kind of case that would have done well in front of a jury.

[Tony Bruski]

I think it could have done well in front of a jury. It just depends what direction you wanted it to go in. And I really don't know, because you're really. You're rolling the dice on how well informed those jurors are and what kind of life experiences they've all had. If you have some jurors on that panel that have experienced experience with postpartum depression, any sort of mental illness, things of that nature, someone who can understand the concept of one not being in their right mind, yet appearing on the surface to be fairly there. But just how deeply troubling the cognitive distortions of someone who is suffering with postpartum can be to themselves and those around them. So I really think you would be rolling the dice here because you could end up with a jury that. That nobody has a clue about any of that. I think when they went to the judge, they knew the judge is gonna have far more experience in that lane and could probably give a more balanced and educated verdict than rolling the dice on a jury. That'd be my opinion.

[Phil Holloway]

I couldn't agree more, because this is all about what happened in that room where only two people were present. It's not about all the drama and the minutiae and all the stuff that's going on around the periphery of this very toxic relationship. It's about how things went down in that room and can they prove it beyond a reasonable doubt? There's some more of her testimony that I wanted to play. It's exactly what you were just speaking about. We've got SOT10, which is where she said, I wanted to kill myself. I didn't want to threaten anyone.

[Witness/Amanda Norris]

Yeah. I just kept trying to hand them things to make them go away.

[Judge]

Meaning.

[Attorney/Interviewer]

What do you mean, make them go away? Be more specific if you can.

[Witness/Amanda Norris]

Like,

[Tony Bruski]

what was the plan?

[Witness/Amanda Norris]

I knew if I pulled out my firearm in front of a police officer, I would get shot. That was not my intention, and that's not what I did. I was trying to get them away from me. So that didn't happen. So they weren't put in that position. Because I'm. I'm not dumb. I was a police officer. If someone takes out a gun in front of you. Yes, that's a threat. Yes, that somebody that you probably feel threatened from.

[Attorney/Interviewer]

So. But if you want to kill yourself, why not just let it happen that way?

[Witness/Amanda Norris]

That's. No, that's selfish. I would never do that. Even looking back now, like, reflecting for nine months, I think my decision to do it to myself was selfish to everybody who Loves me. So I'll just, just leave it at that. I wanted to kill myself. Me and my gun. No one else involved.

[Phil Holloway]

Well, look, you didn't ask me, but I'll tell you. She came across as credible. Yeah, I mean, I believe what she was saying.

[Dave Ehrenberg]

Yes.

[Tony Bruski]

Yeah, I mean, I felt like that was just a prime example of a cognitive distortion right there. If someone doesn't quite understand it, it was not her intent to do anything to shoot the officer, but she's asking them to know her intention as she pulls a weapon out and she knows what another officer is going to think of that and how they're going to react, that she's contradicting herself in the same sentence, but she's being honest and true about what her thought process was in the moment. And I think that's very important and I think it came across very authentic and very powerful to that judge.

[Dave Ehrenberg]

Yeah. Go ahead.

[Phil Holloway]

Ask you, Dave, if I don't know if you ever had any situation like this when you were prosecuting, but I mean, you know, cop on cop, I mean, they're both trained in use of force, they're trained in police procedures. How do you sort this out?

[Dave Ehrenberg]

Well, you know, juries like to rule for cops. They believe cops, they trust cops. And you would think, well, maybe that is, it goes into the calculation here, but here it's cop on cop. So that's makes it a little more complicated. And so, yeah, I, I, you know, I do agree with you that I thought she came across as very credible. I think she looks the part. I mean, she survived a shot to the chest and yet she just sounded sincere. And I just think it's a wash when you have cop on cop here. I, I think naturally the inclination is to support the cop and believe the cop, but when both are cops, you know, it's, it's a push. I, I do think it's interesting how the prosecution had a different approach because the three of us here all think she was credible and the prosecution leaned into her being a liar. You can't trust her. And they had all these reasons why, like for example, that there was a bullet in the chamber, she racked it and so she was trying to shoot him. Although that doesn't contradict that she was trying to shoot herself. So I'd like to hear the prosecution's closing and how they lean into this, that she's nothing but, but a liar. It's on SOT6C.

[Prosecutor]

She lied at the scene about where the guns were, and I'm not. And she admitted that, and I understand that.

[Dave Ehrenberg]

Right.

[Prosecutor]

And she said she lied to the police because she decided to kill herself. You can't trust her. She said on the stand yesterday that she didn't know Justin was in the house. And we know that's a lie too, because what happened when three of them were upstairs, it's Newton, it's Houston, and it's the defendant. She hears him downstairs, Houston hears him downstairs and she says, keep him away from me. I don't want him in my house. Or something to that effect.

[Phil Holloway]

You know, Tony, that's a excellent argument. And I would make that argument too if I were prosecuting this case. But you watched all the testimony. Did she have a pretty good explanation for why she lied to the police about where the guns were?

[Tony Bruski]

I think so. I mean, as good as you're going to get this, I mean, I don't think there's really any real reason that you're going to like walk away from in a clear headed mind and go, here's a reasonable way of why I was lying, other than essentially what we're talking about postpartum and we're talking about mental illness to a certain extent of what was happening, fueling the words that were coming out of her mouth and the decisions that she was making. So I guess as good as you're going to get on something like, well,

[Phil Holloway]

that was a little bit of, a, little bit of a trick question. You don't know what, you don't know what video cuts we've got, but we actually have that. So let's hear what Kelsey says about, about the location of the guns. I think it's a good explanation.

[Attorney/Interviewer]

Did you say anything to the officers about the location of your firearms?

[Witness/Amanda Norris]

Yes, I did.

[Attorney/Interviewer]

What did you say?

[Witness/Amanda Norris]

I told them that they were in the basement.

[Attorney/Interviewer]

Was that true?

[Witness/Amanda Norris]

No.

[Attorney/Interviewer]

Why did you tell them that?

[Witness/Amanda Norris]

Because I didn't want them to take them away.

[Attorney/Interviewer]

Why not?

[Witness/Amanda Norris]

Because I wanted to be alone with my firearm and take my life.

[Attorney/Interviewer]

When did you make that decision?

[Witness/Amanda Norris]

I made that decision as I realized I had just lost everything in a 15 second conversation with my co worker.

[Tony Bruski]

It's heartbreaking.

[Phil Holloway]

Well, you know, look, she, she lies to him. She, she, she into her mind. She wants to get to at least one of these firearms because she wants to use it to harm herself. And so it makes logical sense to me why she would not disclose where they all were. Hey, but that's just, you know, my opinion. I welcome yours. But you know, she also said, and before we move on to Guthrie, I think that one of the most compelling pieces of her testimony was this. This is slot 13. This is where she says, I'm a fucking idiot. I just tried to kill myself.

[Attorney/Interviewer]

At what point in the trip downstairs and out of the house Were you trying to take off the mask?

[Witness/Amanda Norris]

I think the whole time when I. I was in the ambulance, I said to everybody, I'm a fucking idiot. I just tried to kill myself with an unloaded gun. I'm a fucking idiot. I said that to everybody. I said that to the hospital staff. I said that to all the firefighters. I probably said that when I was laying on the ground. Those were the words I just kept repeating.

[Phil Holloway]

David, as the prosecutor. Okay, if she's saying this to all these people, okay, would you. Let's just say that the defense didn't offer up any witnesses to corroborate that she made those statements. If you're the prosecutor, would you be out there finding out if, in fact she made those statements and if nobody heard her saying that, then bring some witnesses to say, I never heard her say that.

[Dave Ehrenberg]

Absolutely. And they tried to do that, though, by saying, well, there's proof. You put a bullet in the chamber and then cock the gun. You. You know, you were ready to shoot you that. So this whole thing was a lie about being unloaded. You knew it was loaded, so that's a lie. And if you're lying about that, can't believe anything else you say. At the same time, you can see how in her mind, she believes it's unloaded. And maybe she did put a bullet in the chamber, but she was in severe mental distress, so could she have been mistaken? Yeah, of course. So I think prosecutors needed to do more than show there was a bullet in the chamber. They needed to find a witness, someone to say, yeah, I was the nurse on scene. She never said anything to me about any of this. And I think that would have helped.

[Phil Holloway]

Well, Tony, I know you have been following the. We'll leave it there for the Kelsey Fitzsimmons. We're going to move to Nancy Guthrie. I know that you, along with the rest of us and most people in America who follow true crime and the news are familiar with. With the Nancy Guthrie case Now, as we are recording the show today, she has now been missing for over seven weeks now. I think there's some presumptions that we can fairly say go along with this other than being just missing, sadly. And I think that's also the sad conclusion that has been reached by our family members, Savannah and others. But we now have the FBI Tony, going out and requesting footage from January 11th from. From the neighbors. What do you make of this renewed interest in January 11th footage from the neighbors?

[Tony Bruski]

Pure speculation. I don't know the answer to that question, quite honestly, other than there is something that there's going on behind the scenes. I'm going to guess there's another ring video or something. Something is triggering behind the scenes where someone similar to porch guy has either been spotted or they suspect may be spotted in some other video footage that one of these residents may have. So they're really digging in, asking everybody to look for everything. Double check, triple check. See if there is something there. It's one of those pieces to this puzzle where the ask is out there, but we don't quite know the motivation behind that ask. What is going on behind the scenes? Your guess is as good as mine. But there. There's something inspiring it. Exactly what? I don't know. But. But they're thinking somebody has something.

[Phil Holloway]

Dave, what do you make of this? We have. We have now a Today show interview. Right. And so they've interviewed Savannah Guthrie. In fact, let's run slot 14 and then talk about that on the other side.

[Savannah Guthrie]

Someone needs to do the right thing. We are in agony. Yeah. We are in agony. It is unbearable. And to think of what she went through. I wake up every night in the middle of the night, every night. And in the darkness, I imagine her terror. And it is unthinkable. But those thoughts demand to be thought. And I will not hide my face. That she needs to come home now. Yes.

[Phil Holloway]

Oh, it's heartbreaking. And now, of course, we've got new information where Savannah Guthrie is saying that her mom's door, back door or doors were propped open. I don't know if you guys.

[Savannah Guthrie]

We were on the phone with the sheriff and trying to, you know, really make clear. I. I mean, from the very early moments, you know, Annie and Tommy were saying, this isn't. This isn't that case that you are used to where someone wanders off. She can't wander off. My mom, her. She was in tremendous pain. Her back was very bad. You know, she was trying to. On a good day, she could walk down to the mailbox and get the mail. But most days, not. Not. So there was no wander off. And the doors were popped open.

[Prosecutor]

Yeah.

[Savannah Guthrie]

And there was blood on the front doorstep. And the ring camera had been yanked off.

[Prosecutor]

Yeah.

[Savannah Guthrie]

And so we were saying this is.

[Prosecutor]

Do something.

[Savannah Guthrie]

This is not. Okay.

[Ariel (Wife/Victim)]

Yeah.

[Savannah Guthrie]

This isn't. Something is very wrong here.

[Phil Holloway]

I don't know, guys. We ever gonna solve this?

[Tony Bruski]

I hope we do, but unfortunately, I don't know the answer to that question. And my gut's telling me it's gonna probably be a while. I hope for the sake of the family, that we get somewhere with this. But there are so many unanswered questions, and it seems every time we think we're turning a corner, we just get more questions and less answers into the direction of that this should be going. Who should we be looking for? What should we be looking at? The back doors propped open? Was this a targeted kidnapping? Were any of those letters or the demand letters, were they legit? I mean, we don't have solid answers to so many things, so it's so hard to know what lanes anyone should be going down.

[Dave Ehrenberg]

Well, you know what's interesting to me with the Savannah Guthrie interview was that she said that there were two ransom notes that she thought were legit. They were genuine. And I. I was surprised by that because I wasn't sure even to this day, if any of these people had her, were trying to get money from her. So that means that she does believe this was a kidnapping, and her mother may or may not have ever been in their hands at the time. But those people are people out there who sent these requests for bitcoin, and they were legit. I was surprised by that.

[Tony Bruski]

And I'd love to know why. Why does she think that they were legit? Because, again, and with all due respect to Savannah Guthrie, this is Savannah's opinion and where she is coming from, everything she knows, and she probably knows far more than we do. But I'd love to know what is the reasoning behind believing there's legitimacy behind those two letters? Because to everyone, I think, on the outside, I think a lot of us have already dismissed all of that as being legitimate. Is that still someone that's holding onto some sort of hope that maybe there is something here? I don't know. I mean, I don't blame her by any stretch of the imagination, cannot imagine or fathom what the heck she's going through and her family. But that's a question I'd love to know the answer to.

[Phil Holloway]

Well, look, you're not wrong at all. I mean, as far as her. The families oftentimes know more. Law enforcement shares more oftentimes with families than they do the general public. And I've got no reason to suspect that's not what's going on here. And I'm glad you mentioned that, Tony, because we have something that I found to be very chilling. Apparently, Nancy Guthrie believes that the person that we saw wearing that mask, very, very frightening looking person at the door was, was the face and the image that Nancy Guthrie woke up to in her bed. In fact, we have that side 18, which is Savannah discussing the suspect on that footage when the ring camera video

[Savannah Guthrie]

surfaced and you could see who that person was.

[Phil Holloway]

Just tell me what you thought when

[Savannah Guthrie]

you saw, when you saw those images

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of the person who, who took your mother.

[Savannah Guthrie]

I mean, it's just absolutely terrifying. Yeah, it's just totally terrifying. And I can't imagine that that is who she saw standing over her bed. Yeah, I can't. It's too much. Yeah.

[Phil Holloway]

I remember early in the investigation, Sheriff Nanows said something, words to the effect of her being taken from her bed. It makes me wonder now if all along that hasn't been sort of what was known or suspected by law enforcement. And that's just horrifying. It's terrifying.

[Tony Bruski]

Guys one, yeah. I mean, there's no good, good outcome in any of this. I can't imagine the nightmares that are going through the children of Nancy, of Savannah and siblings every night with the information that exists out there and the lack of information that exists out there. That's the worst part, I think even Savannah talked about that is it's the not knowing. Like, I can survive anything. I'm just paraphrasing, but she's like, I can get through anything. But it's the not knowing. That's what really, that's the hardest thing for anybody in any of this sort of situation because your mind just runs and it runs with the horror of what we know exists and then it tries to combine it with what we don't know. And that's where I'm sure Savannah is sitting right now. Gosh, I hope, I hope she's got some folks to help her through this. Her family certainly is there, but this is not anything that's going to be healed easily.

[Phil Holloway]

Very, very well said. All right, we'll leave it there with you, Tony. But before we let you go, tell the folks where they can find you and tell us real quick about hidden killers.

[Tony Bruski]

Yeah, check us out wherever you get podcasts, Hidden Killers with Tony Bruski, Apple podcasts, Spotify, Iheart, wherever you get podcasts, just search, you'll find us and YouTube as well. We are true crime. We dig into it every single day. We go live on YouTube, on our channel, Hidden Killers with Tony Bruski at 11am Central. My co host, Robin Drake, retired FBI special agent, chief of the counterintelligence Behavioral analysis analysis program with us every day. We bring in great guests all the time. Jennifer Coffendaffer, Eric Faddis, Bob Motta, you name it. We talk true crime every day. And as you guys know here the podcast platform is wonderful because you can get in depth. It's not just quick sound bites and we go to a break. We can really, we dive into these cases and we go deep and we got a great community of folks who are weighing in every day with their thoughts on these cases. So we invite you to join us on over there.

[Phil Holloway]

I want to ask you real quick and we'd love to come on with you sometime. That would be great. Appreciate that. Real quick before we go to the break, are you going to be at CrimeCon in Las Vegas this year?

[Tony Bruski]

I am not going to be a crime con in Las Vegas this year. I get asked this all the time. I've never gone to a crime con yet. It's on my list, I think. But one of these, one of these years, I'll get there and I'll let you know.

[Phil Holloway]

All right, well, well, we'll be there. MK True crime and all of the true crime folks here at the channel will be there. And so we'll save a place for you next year. All right.

[Tony Bruski]

All right.

[Phil Holloway]

We're going to leave it there. Thanks so much, Tony.

[Dave Ehrenberg]

Thanks, Tony.

[Phil Holloway]

When we come back, we have your questions and Dave and I will have our closing arguments. Stay tuned.

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[Dave Ehrenberg]

welcome back to MK True Crime. Now it's time for closing arguments and your questions. Selena writes. Hi team. Ashley mentioned on a recent episode regarding Corey Richen's appeal process that it looks like a lot of time in lawyers combing through a file trying to figure out if something happened in the case that was wrong. And I'm unsure if this exists already, but having a program that does this combing through for you seems convenient, but then also replaces the human workforce with AI impacting all industries. I wondered how you think AI might, might positively or negatively impact the legal field. Selena, it's such a good question and quite prescient because as we move into closing arguments, our very own Phil Holloway has his closing argument that addresses your very issue. So Phil, take it away.

[Phil Holloway]

Well, to directly answer the question and it's a great one. And by the way, thank you Selena, and to all the people who send us really, really thoughtful questions, we really appreciate it because this is our, you know, we live in this stuff and so we love to talk about. But I think what Ashley Merchant was referring to is the work that's required to dive into the record of a case prior to an appeal. Right. And so the that's not really the kind of work that you can have AI do because lawyers have to go through the transcripts, they have to go through all of the, the records in the case and the evidence and they look for legal issues that they can bring on appeal. One of the things that they look for is whether or not the lawyers were effective because you have a right to a lawyer and that means you have the right to the effective assistance of a lawyer. So if your lawyers, let's See, if the way your lawyer conducted the trial was so subpar that it's just unreasonably bad, then you have been effectively denied your right to counsel. So that's the kind of thing that an appellate lawyer would look through. And it's why, quite frankly, trial attorneys don't really do their own appeals most of the time. That needs a third party, another set of eyes, if you will, to. To go over and examine the work that everybody did, including the lawyers. So that's why AI will never, I think, be able to take the place of a good qualified appellate lawyer or team of appellate lawyers. But sometimes prosecutors and lawyers will try to use AI in, in ways that, that really, really harm the profession. So consider this. We recently here in the Atlanta area, we had a prosecutor doing something that should terrify every lawyer in America. And this begins my closing argument in my rant. This also should bother everybody who is a human being and a person who values the justice system where lawyers are expected to play by the rules. So here in Atlanta, we had the Clayton county district attorney's office. They had filed briefs and even a proposed court order. Okay, this was in a murder appeal. This order. And this appeal was packed with phantom cases. There were at least five citations to decisions that did not exist. There were five more citing two real cases that, that did not say what the DA Said that they said. And there were three fake quotations. So we have Chief Justice Nels Peterson and the Georgia Supreme Court calling it out. Let's go ahead and run that site.

[Chief Justice Nels Peterson]

So before you sit down, there's one more thing I need to ask you about. Unfortunately, in reviewing the trial court's order denying the motion for new trial, there are at least five citations to cases that don't exist. And there's at least five more citations to cases that do not support the proposition for which they're cited, including three quotations that don't exist. My understanding is that you prepared the order for new trial, the denial order for the trial court. Were those citations in the version of the order that you submitted to the trial court?

[Phil Holloway]

No, your honor, I do not believe so. They were not. I did prepare an order. That order was revised.

[Chief Justice Nels Peterson]

So those, those non existent cases were cited in your initial brief opposing the motion for new traffic.

[Phil Holloway]

Your honor, I'm not aware of that, but I would be glad to research that and provide the court with a supplement. So there you have Chief justice Nell Peterson calling it out in open court. So this prosecutor's boss, who is the elected district attorney in Clayton County Georgia, she herself said it was utterly devastating. And she suspects artificial intelligence generated these ghost citations. Folks, look, this is not a minor typo. This is ethically wrong. Very wrong. Lawyers have a legal duty and ethical duty of candor. That means truthfulness to the tribunal in all things. We cannot feed the court fiction and call it law. When AI hallucinates plausible sounding but non existent cases, it turns justice into a slot machine. It wastes judges time, it misleads defendants facing prison, and it destroys public trust in the rule of law. Competence is not optional. So here is the non negotiable rule. AI is a tool. AI is not a lawyer. Every citation, every quote, every parenthetical must be read, verified and double checked by a lawyer against the actual reported case or official database before a single brief is filed. There can be no exceptions, no excuses. If you don't have time to check, don't file it it. If you don't have time to check, you don't have time to file. Because in the end, your law license, your client's life and the integrity of the courts depend on one thing, the lawyers. The lawyers being ethical, it doesn't depend on machines. The lawyers must know the law and they must behave ethically. Check every citation, always and honestly. In my opinion, this is the kind of egregious legal misconduct that is worthy of jail. It's contemptuous of the court, and it might even be criminal. Making up fake case citations to uphold a conviction on appeal is no different than planting evidence to obtain such a conviction in the first place. That's it. That's my rent. Dave, back to you to take it home.

[Dave Ehrenberg]

Thank you, Phil. Well said. And as a dog lover, you can see over my shoulder I've got the cookie jar. In memory of my beloved basset hound Cookie. I need to discuss that viral story of the seven dogs escaping a meat truck in China. You saw it, I saw it. We all shed a tear over. They stuck together, with the corgi taking the lead. Of course. Every corgi owner expected that with the pack protecting the injured German shepherd, it was pure, unadultered, unfiltered empathy. There's just one problem. The story itself was false. I know the video was real. But there was no meat truck, no injured German shepherd, no corgi in the leash. Apparently all the male dogs, it turned out, were following the one female, the German shepherd who was in heat. Not as heroic or inspiring as the original story, but still understandable. Now it's easy to feel cynical about falling for it, especially when a jury recently confirmed the grim reality that our digital overlords at Meta and Google are basically turning our kids into depressed screen addicted zombies. We have built the greatest communication tools in human history, only to let them isolate us. But here's a silver lining. The story was faked, but our reaction was not. When that video dropped, the Internet didn't just scroll past, we stopped. We felt a real primal tug of compassion. We collectively demanded a happy ending. So the story was not real. But our empathy is. And if a video can still spark that much genuine collective humanity, well, it means the tech bros haven't completely hollowed us out yet.

[Savannah Guthrie]

Yet.

[Dave Ehrenberg]

So hug your loved ones tonight, including your fur babies. In this age of algorithms and outrage, of digital fakes and fraud, let us all remember to hold on to what is real. And that's my closing statement. So, Phil Holloway, I want to thank you for joining me here today and to thank our guest Tony Bruski and to all of you for joining us here at M True Crime. Have a great weekend.

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[Tony Bruski]

Why have I asked my electrician I found on Angie.com to bury my pet hamster? I was so moved by how carefully he buried my electrical wires. I knew I could trust him to bury my sweet nibbles after his untimely end.

[Phil Holloway]

This is very strange Angie. The one you trust to find the ones you trust. Find pros for all your home [e-mail].