The State of Luigi's Defense, Inside Alex Murdaugh's Retrial, and Prosecuting Serial Killer “Pee Wee” Gaskins, with Dick Harpootlian

Summary

MK True Crime Podcast — Episode Summary

Episode Title: The State of Luigi's Defense, Inside Alex Murdaugh's Retrial, and Prosecuting Serial Killer “Pee Wee” Gaskins
Host(s): Matt Murphy & Mark Geragos
Guest: Dick Harpootlian
Date: June 26, 2026

---

Overview

This episode is a multifaceted discussion featuring in-depth legal analysis and engaging storytelling from veteran trial attorneys. The episode covers three major topics:

• The evolving legal strategy in the Luigi Mangione case and the tactical maneuvers around his dual prosecution.
• A behind-the-scenes look at Alex Murdaugh’s retrial, including an interview with his attorney, Dick Harpootlian.
• Insights into the prosecution of notorious serial killer “Pee Wee” Gaskins, and broader meditations on justice, courtroom culture, and the human element of criminal law.

---

1. The State of Luigi Mangione’s Defense

Timestamps: 01:04–15:17

Key Points

• Luigi Mangione is facing dual prosecution by federal and state authorities—a rare and complex scenario.
• The defense initially considered using an "Extreme Emotional Disturbance" (EED) defense, which can mitigate sentences under New York law, but withdrew it after realizing negative repercussions for the federal case.
• The delicate dance between state and federal proceedings set up significant challenges for Mangione's defense team.

Notable Discussion:

• Mark Geragos explains the tactical withdrawal of the EED defense, attributing it to the realization that “if we do, we’re walking the client into a conviction because there’s no way to escape that once you’ve taken or adopted that defense federally.” (03:38)
• Matt Murphy highlights how dual prosecution is “pretty rare,” usually ending in a “wrestling match between us and the feds.” (04:22)
• They reflect on how defenses that work in state court can be disadvantageous federally, especially where a defendant's testimony could be used against him later.

Insightful Quotes

• Mark Geragos:
  “If I’m the defense, ... we didn’t know who’s going first, the feds or the state. Now that we know the state’s going first, we can’t go forward with this defense because ... there is no way to escape that once you’ve taken or adopted that defense federally.” (03:38)
• Matt Murphy, on dual prosecutions:
  “Usually that just results in a wrestling match between us and the feds and then one would take the case.” (04:22)

Human & Tactical Elements

• Both hosts discuss the psychological and reputational calculations for defendants with a cause (like Mangione), comparing it to historical cases such as Ted Kaczynski’s.
• They delve into jury selection fears—prosecutors worry about “stealth jurors” sympathetic to the defense (reverse of the usual scenario).

---

2. Inside the Murdaugh Retrial with Dick Harpootlian

Timestamps: 16:47–43:30

Introduction to Dick Harpootlian

• South Carolina state senator, renowned trial lawyer, bestselling author (author of Dig Me a Grave), and former prosecutor.
• Prosecuted serial killer Donald "Pee Wee" Gaskins and now defends Alex Murdaugh.

“Dig Me a Grave” and Pee Wee Gaskins

• Harpootlian recaps prosecuting Gaskins, who murdered 14 people, recounting a dramatic trial where Gaskins committed a murder even while on death row. The case “was the longest criminal trial in the history of ... South Carolina.” (17:50)

The Alex Murdaugh Case

• Harpootlian details the real-time, high-pressure decision to put Alex Murdaugh on the stand:
  • Murdaugh, being an experienced trial lawyer, believed he could sway the jury himself.
  • Ultimately, Harpootlian felt he had no choice but to let him testify due to previously denied alibi evidence.
• The trial was upended by shocking revelations of jury tampering by the court clerk—she tried to influence jurors so she could sell more books about the case:
  • “She had a concentrated, organized scheme to help find him guilty because she could sell more books. ... I’m ashamed of my state when I talk about her.” (22:23)
• The state Supreme Court’s reaction was “apoplectic,” according to Harpootlian, and ordered a new trial—unprecedented given the court’s deference to the former Chief Justice who handled the evidentiary hearing.

Notable Quotes

• Harpootlian (on jury tampering):
  “The clerk of court had to have a concentrated, organized scheme to help find him guilty because she could sell more books. ... I’m ashamed of my state when I talk about her.” (22:23)
• Mark Geragos:
  “Can you imagine if I told you, ‘Hey Dick, don’t worry about it, the clerk’s going to go back there and put her finger on the scales of justice in the jury room’?” (22:00)

Legal Culture Past & Present

• A lively segment recounts the colorful old days of courtroom culture in the South:
  • All-male, all-white juries, lawyers smoking and drinking in court, and bombastic orators dominating arguments.
  • The reminiscing transitions to how professionalism and camaraderie among adversaries seems to be waning in modern times.

“Gentleman Lawyers”, Diversity & Justice

• Harpootlian and Murphy muse on the fading era of “gentlemanly professionalism” and share anecdotes about working across the aisle—even becoming law partners after trying cases against each other.
• Harpootlian recounts that women didn’t serve on juries in South Carolina until 1972, and Black jurors were rare due to voter suppression.

---

3. Prosecution Reflections and The Meaning of Justice

The Elusive Nature of Closure

(38:03–41:03)

• The hosts and Harpootlian discuss the “myth of closure” for victims, emphasizing that prosecution outcomes seldom bring true emotional resolution.
  • Mark Geragos:
    “This idea of closure is one of the great misnomers of all time.” (40:10)
  • Matt Murphy:
    “You can get justice depending on the case. ... but closure doesn’t happen.” (40:25)
  • Dick Harpootlian:
    “I prosecuted over 100 murder cases ... I never ever remember a single victim ... that their lives changed for the better after that verdict came in.” (40:35, paraphrased)
• Harpootlian on witnessing executions:
  “He was electrocuted, his eyeballs exploded, his hair caught on fire. ... Why would you, as a victim, that’s what you want to remember?” (41:03)

Murdaugh’s Retrial: Political and Strategic Context

• The upcoming retrial is now less politically charged, with the election cycle over.
• The challenge: seating an unbiased jury in such a high-profile case, especially given the media saturation.
• Harpootlian notes that he “just want[s] a judge that’s going to call balls and strikes,” expecting a fairer process than in the first trial. (25:06)

---

4. Viral Video Segment: Substance Abuse & Crime

Timestamps: 45:03–53:32

• The hosts review a viral video of retired MMA fighter Dustin Poirier belligerent with police after being kicked off a plane for drunkenness.
• They discuss the high correlation between substance abuse and violent crime—estimating 80% or more of violent crimes have alcohol or drugs as a factor.
  • Mark Geragos:
    “If you then extend it out and say how related are substance abuses to the criminal justice system? 80%.” (48:00)
• The hosts praise the restraint shown by police and urge public accountability for such behavior, even for celebrities.

Personal Perspectives

• Matt Murphy shares that substance abuse is prevalent in his own family and reflects on the complexities of sympathy for those struggling vs. the dangers they present.

---

5. Reflections on Big Settlements & Local Government

Timestamps: 54:04–58:15

• The hosts relate a recent massive settlement involving the LA probation system and sexual abuse with personal anecdotes about accountability and faith (or lack thereof) in local government.
• They emphasize respect for tireless victim advocacy lawyers and clarify the intent of previous commentary for any listeners potentially affected.

---

6. Closing & Humor

• Tidbits of camaraderie and humor between hosts and guests close out the show, including playful stories about breed reveals for dogs and an on-air shoutout to Harpootlian’s book.

---

Noteworthy Quotes & Most Memorable Moments

• On the Calculations of a Defendant:
  “If [Mangione] was crazy when he did it, it undermines the legitimacy ... He's got zero remorse. He did it. And if he's crazy when he did it, it, it undermines or lessens the, you know, the, the reasons.” — Matt Murphy, quoting a judge friend (07:59)
• On Putting Alex Murdaugh on the Stand:
  “Absolutely. And it’s a game day call. I mean, you don’t really make it until you’re confronted with it because you don’t know what’s, what has come in or will come in.” — Dick Harpootlian (20:10)
• On Closure for Victims:
  “I never ever remember a single victim ... that their lives changed for the better after that verdict came in.” — Dick Harpootlian (40:35, paraphrased)
• On Old Courtroom Days:
  “You’d hear [the judge] pop the beer cans and go through 23 beer cans. ... He was still brighter ... than most of the lawyers appearing in front of him.” — Mark Geragos (31:04)
• On the State of Modern Lawyering:
  “It seems like we’re losing a little bit about that these days. ... I personally love the congeniality of professionals, you know, women or men.” — Matt Murphy (33:55)

---

Episode Structure & Timestamps

| Segment | Timestamps | |---------------------------------------------|----------------| | Luigi Mangione's Defense Strategy | 01:04–15:17 | | Intro to Dick Harpootlian & Pee Wee Gaskins | 16:47–21:02 | | Alex Murdaugh Retrial Deep Dive | 21:02–43:30 | | Substance Abuse & Viral Video Analysis | 45:03–53:32 | | LA Settlements & Reflections | 54:04–58:15 | | Closing remarks & Humor | 58:15–59:31 |

---

Style & Tone

The podcast demonstrates real camaraderie, expert insight, and storytelling gravitas. The tone is collegial, with frequent asides full of humor, war stories, and legal shop talk, but balanced by empathy and big-picture reflections on justice, the system, and the persistent human messiness at the heart of law.

---

Final Takeaway

This episode offers an unusually candid look at the realities of criminal defense and prosecution, the quirks of trial law, courtroom history, and the gritty problems of substance abuse that fuel so many crimes. For those following high-profile cases like Mangione or Murdaugh, or just interested in the soul of trial law, it’s a compelling listen.

Transcript

[Narrator/Advertiser]

You know, recommendations can be great. Maybe someone recommended this podcast and here you are. But home projects are different. If a podcast isn't your thing, you lose a few minutes. If you hire your cousin's neighbor to mount your tv, you might end up with a lopsided screen and wall damage. Maybe I know a guy just isn't enough for your home. That's why thumbtack works. It matches you with top rated local pros with photos, reviews and credentials all in one place. For your next home project, try thumbtack. Hire the right pro today.

[Udemy Advertiser]

Not sure if you have the experience to start your dream job. Good news. These days it's the skills that count. Udemy can help you get those in demand. Skills? Want to be an AI mastermind? Learn with us. Game developer. We've got you covered. AWS certified cloud practitioner. We can help you prep. You'll learn from real world experts who love what they do so that you can love what you do. Go to udemy.com for the skills to get you started and get set for your dream job.

[Matt Murphy]

Welcome to in the well I'm Matt Murphy, former homicide prosecutor and author. I'm joined by my co host Mark Gargos, criminal defense attorney to the stars. Let's start with Luigi Mangione. Luigi is due back in court on Monday for a hearing on his federal case. Mark, you're close with Luigi's attorneys to say the least. Can you explain the recent flip flop on his extreme emotional disturbance defense? And I want to share a really interesting conversation I had about that with a great judge who's now retired. What are your thoughts?

[Mark Gargos]

So I'm going to lead off with this as we're taping this on Thursday afternoon dropping on Friday the Manhattan DA's office just announced that they will not retry Harvey Weinstein. We had as a guest previously met my daughter. Tenny and Tenney tried that case cross examined Jessica Mann. So you now have a situation where this defense team that and I don't think Teddy's doing much on Luigi's case. She was on Harvey's and before that puffs. But they're on quite a roll at this point. And what you're referring to with Luigi is there is a doctrine or a code section or a statute in New York the EDD extreme or EED extreme emotional disturbance. And it acts as a way to mitigate the malice on a offense. And they had apparently in September of last year had given notice under seal of that potential use of the doctrine if you will. But the feds do not Recognize this. So last week, the judge in the state case. In the state case. This is another thing, Matt, that you and I, I think, have talked about before. This is a dual prosecution. It's like everybody wants a piece of Luigi. The feds want him and the state wants him. And it's been kind of a leapfrog back and, or kind of a. What was the old game with the baseball bat where they, where you'd choose sides and so as to who would go first? Well, as of right now, it's the state that's going first. So the judge said to the, to them, I'm going to unseal all of this stuff and you're going to have to disclose to the defense. Well, he said that on a, on one day, by the next day, the defense had withdrawn. The extreme emotional disturbance. I'm guessing nobody's talking to me because they're afraid I'll yap to you, Matt, but I'm guessing that if I'm the defense, we said, wait a second here. We did this back in September of last year. We didn't know who's going first, the feds or the state. Now that we know the state's going first, we can't go forward with this defense because if we do, we're walking the client into a conviction because there is no way to escape that once you've taken or adopted that defense federally. Makes sense.

[Matt Murphy]

Yeah, that's, that's actually really interesting, isn't it? With a dual prosecution, which are pretty rare. I've only had, I've only dealt with a couple and usually that just results in, in a wrestling match between us and the feds and then one. One would take the case. That's, that's actually really interesting, Mark.

[Mark Gargos]

It's a fascinating, you know, as a point of just interesting fun fact that irrelevant to anything. My first encounter with Alan Jackson was when Alan was a young prosecutor and Alan was prosecuting the guy who was called Japanese O.J. he had been acquitted in Japan of the murder of his wife in Los Angeles. And then he was basically taunting the Lada's office in the LAPD as he's roaming around and they can't extradite him because he'd been acquitted, except he stepped foot in Guam, which is a US Territory, and leave it to Alan to have the guy try to be extradited. I do a once in jeopardy because it was an out of the jurisdiction acquittal which was barred under California law. Allen, to his credit, just goes back and does a conspiracy to Commit murder. And that is how he navigates getting the guy extradited here.

[Matt Murphy]

That sounds like Alan. And what happened on that one?

[Mark Gargos]

The guy wasn't in custody at the LAPD for 18 hours. I was in Europe. I got a call that he they had brought him after Allen indicted him on conspiracy. I sent one of my young lawyers down to see him and I'm a savage. He ended up either dying in custody at LAPD within two days of being there.

[Matt Murphy]

Wow.

[Mark Gargos]

And I may have told the young lawyer who worked for me then because I was in Europe that he ended up killing the guy because the guy got one look at him and said, I'm not having you represent me. But it was a kind of a gallows humor. Don't take it personally. And I'm not naming the ex lawyer. But he ended up dying. We never could vindicate him.

[Ro Health Advertiser]

Want a thousand dollar weight loss medication for $50? It all starts with Ro's free GLP1 insurance check. Upload your insurance card to see if you have coverage. Then relax. Over 200,000 people have qualified for a $50 copay through Roe. Go to Roe Co Health. Half of covered patients have a $50 per month copay or less for medication plus $1.45 monthly ROE membership fee. Deductible costs may apply and final cost varies by insurance plan. For safety information about GLP1 medications, including Boxed Warning, go to Roe Co SafetyRxOnly.

[DSW Advertiser]

You know that thing where you get an amazing pair of shoes at a really great price and want to tell everyone about it?

[Udemy Advertiser]

Yeah.

[DSW Advertiser]

So do we here at Designer Shoe Warehouse. We'll give you something to brag about, like the latest styles from brands you love or the trends everyone's obsessing over or shoes that make you feel like, well, you. So go ahead, show off a little. Buying shoes that get you and prices that get your budget. Head to your DSW store or dsw.com today. DSW. Let us surprise you.

[Matt Murphy]

So the I them pulling that, that plea that procedurally. That's a really interesting idea that, that by running a certain state defense you may be you be killing your chances in a, in a federal defense. Especially if he's got to testify. Right. Because he's got a. If he testifies, all of that of course would be admissible in a subsequent federal case. This judge friend of mine, I'll leave his name out who is one of the very, very best.

[Mark Gargos]

We're really sanitizing this today with we don't give my former associate, this former judge I'm going to see if I can guess who the judge is.

[Matt Murphy]

Well, I want to, I want to keep people out of trouble. So they keep talking to me because this was a, this was a great thought, his thought on it. And one of the things that, for our viewers, as a prosecutor, which I did for so long, you represent the state, you're dealing with the victims, and that really is your driving force emotionally. But your client is the people of the state of California, which is simultaneously everybody and nobody. So we don't have that difficult client thing that Mark knows so well, where you've got somebody that's got, you know, that might have their own mind about how they want to proceed. This judge friend of mine's take was Luigi is still. He wants a platform for the cause. And if he was essentially, and I'm oversimplifying by saying this way, if he was crazy when he did it, this extreme emotional disturbance, that undermines the legitimacy. This was the theory of this bench officer, retired bench officer that I know and that he figures that he is. He's still all about it. He's got zero remorse. He did it. And if he's crazy when he did it, it, it undermines or lessens the, you know, the, the reasons, which I think is a very interesting.

[Mark Gargos]

I, I. It's so funny, and I'm going to guess who it is, but I won't. I had the same thought also, because I've often said one of the things. There are death penalty lawyers who are generally appointed. They go around the country, it's a very small crew, and their whole idea is to basically save somebody from the death penalty. And they do it through a number of ways, and I can cite a number of people, but one that sticks out was Ted Kaczynski, the Unabomber. And Ted Kaczynski was a brilliant, by all accounts, young back then, young man, but. And his lawyers saved his life, got the death penalty removed, but did it by basically calling into question his, you know, compass, his mens rea, if you will, and his mental state. He spent years after entering that plea and not being killed by the death penalty, he spent years trying to undo it because he felt that it diminished his cause. And so the judge is not far off the mark, if that, in that analysis, because that is a perfect template for that kind of situation. When you've got somebody who believes in what they're doing, writes a manifesto or believes that they're speaking to a higher cause. I can see that.

[Matt Murphy]

Right. I mean, wouldn't you want to Run some sort of mental defense, especially if it's available in New York and we don't have diminished capacity in California. But there's ways you can sort of do the same thing to attack it. That would be the first thing I'd want to do if I was defending Mangione. Not that I would.

[Mark Gargos]

So this is what I want to get your take on this. If you're a prosecutor and if I've now withdrawn the extreme emotional disturbance and I've looked at that code section and I probably. If there was no federal case looming behind the state case, I probably would have jumped at that. I'm just tactically. But now that I've got this calculation that I've got the federal case behind it and I can't. I can't use the eed. Would you ever let the client take the stand? Because this is the problem, I think if you. This is one of those cases where the prosecutor is worried about what I'm always worried about on the defense side. I'm all. I live in mortal fear of a stealth juror who's lying to get onto the jury because they want to fry my client. I mean, that is my worst nightmare whenever I'm choosing a jury. This may be the complete reverse. It's the opposite. If you're a prosecutor, you see. How often do you see people protesting against the prosecutor outside or coming into the courtroom and fanning it up for the defendant? It's a very, very rare situation. And I would be worri that somebody's going to get in there to try to hang this case.

[Matt Murphy]

And so maybe that's. Maybe that's ultimately that. That maybe that's their best strategy, especially if he's reluctant to go with that is you. You put him on the stand and you have him shout to the rooftops all the reasons why this is bad to the extent that the judge would let it in. And you're right, Mark, that's. It's fascinating really, because as a prosecutor, that is both your greatest wish and your worst nightmare. Because he's going to want to evangelize, right? He's going to want to get up there and he's going to want to go after the victim and he's going to want to go after hard and he's going to want to. He's going to want to do all that. But it might just be convincing to that weak link on the jury. I mean, they're not. There's no way they're acquitting him for this. But maybe, maybe you get that one or two Luigi lovers that somehow slip through. And that would be my biggest nightmare as a prosecutor. But this is also a case that doesn't go away. If, if it hangs 10, 2, you're looking at multiple retrials. I think a court is going to give you at least a couple different bites at the apple before it goes to the Fed.

[Mark Gargos]

If they retried Harvey Weinstein on Jessica Mann's testimony, which by all accounts, if you were in the courtroom, everybody that I talked to who was in the courtroom, and I'm not talking about my daughter, I'm talking about observers, said it was unhinged and they actually felt sorry for her and kind of held it against the prosecutors for actually putting her through it. It was traumatizing to her. There was this kind of idea that she probably had at some level believed her story, but the story was so unhinged or untethered from reality that it made no sense. And you have a certain sympathy for somebody who's that untethered to reality or unhing. But at the same time, the prosecutor, to your point, Matt, has got to make a hard call. They did it today. So Manhattan D.A. should be applauded. I've certainly taken enough shots at you for your ill fated Donald Trump prosecution. So I suppose I can applaud you when you decide enough's enough, right?

[Matt Murphy]

Yeah. You know, and just for the viewer, this is the kind of, this is the behind the scenes on cases like this. There's so many different factors that you kick around as either a prosecutor or as a defense lawyer and trying to figure out, like, how's the jury going to see this? Does the guy testify? How do you approach it? Are you nice to this witness? Are you, you know, do you go hard on this witness? And all of it is, it's very human and it's very sort of life experience based. They don't teach you any of this stuff in law school at all.

[Mark Gargos]

At all. And it's infinitely more an art than science.

[Matt Murphy]

Yeah. So good stuff. We'll keep everybody in the loop on this as it proceeds. Next we are joined by Alex Murdaugh's attorney, Dick Harpoutlian, Mark's buddy. And everybody, please stay tuned.

[Ro Health Advertiser]

Want a thousand dollar weight loss medication for $50. It all starts with Ro's free GLP1 insurance check. Just upload your insurance card to see if you have coverage. Then relax. Over 200,000 people have qualified for a $50 copay through RO. Go to ROE Co Health. Half of covered patients have a $50 per month copay or less for medication plus $1.45 monthly row membership fee. Deductible cost may apply and final cost varies by insurance plan. For safety information about GLP1 medications, including Boxed Warning, go to ro safetyrxonly.

[DSW Advertiser]

You know that thing where you get an amazing pair of shoes at a really great price and want to tell everyone about it?

[Udemy Advertiser]

Yeah.

[DSW Advertiser]

So do we here at Designer Shoe Warehouse. We'll give you something to brag about, like the latest styles from brands you love or the trends everyone's obsessing over or shoes that make you feel like, well, you. So go ahead, show off a little. Buying shoes that get you and prices that get your budget. Head to your DSW store or dsw.com today. DSW. Let us surprise you.

[Mark Gargos]

Welcome back. And we have somebody who's been a longtime friend of mine. I'm delighted to introduce him to Matt Murphy. He has caught on in the international stage because of his recent triumphant victory on the Murdoch case and getting it reversed. But for those of us who've known Dick forever, state senator, kind of bon vivant, longtime criminal defense and civil lawyer in South Carolina and also, you know, you might notice by the Ian proud Armenians. So Dick, how are you? Welcome. Meet Matt Murphy. And thank you so much for spending some time with us today.

[Dick Harpoutlian]

Thank you for inviting me, Dick and, and nice meeting you. And did you say bon vivant a moment ago?

[Mark Gargos]

Yeah, I think I, I do. And, and also best selling author, which by the way, on one of the great cases where you want to give people the title so they can go read this book.

[Dick Harpoutlian]

I'll do better than that. It's called Dig me a Grave. Let me, I think I gotta move it this way. There you go. It's the story of the inside story of the serial killer who seduced the South. A guy named Peewee Gaskins who I prosecuted in 1983 for a execution style hit on death row. There's an inmate on death row. Gaskins was an inmate who blew him up, smuggled in a quarter of a pound of C4 explosive and blew his head off gasket. That was Gaskin's 14th murder, which I prosecute him for. He was sentenced to death in the electric chair. Only executed two weeks before his execution he tried to have my four year old daughter daughter kidnapped. I think it's a fascinating story, not just because I wrote it, but because I think it's a great yarn. And that was the longest criminal trial in the history of, of the state of South Carolina. Took Six weeks until one years ago, until Murdoch, where I defended that and it took over six weeks, six and a half weeks. So I don't know want to have or not to bookend? Murder trials took a long time to do.

[Matt Murphy]

You guys take care of business down there. If the longest trials are six weeks. Mark, what's your longest, Mark?

[Mark Gargos]

I tried a case, Matt, in front of your friend Frank Fassel down in Orange county in your backyard. I was poaching down there. But I think you were actually a prosecutor then. And we, I think jury selection came. It was close to six weeks. We were there the entire summer. It was, it was wild and into the fall. But you know, the other great thing about Dick, Matt, that you should know is not only I talked to him and I won't reveal the contents of it the night he was going to put his client on the stand and in the Murdoch case and to now in retrospect, and I want you to talk about this, Dick, but I'm going to just say you were, you were, to say the least, that is one of the toughest times for a defense lawyer whether to put your client on. Wouldn't you agree?

[Dick Harpoutlian]

Absolutely. And it's a game day call. I mean, you don't really make it until you're confronted with it because you don't know what's, what has come in or will come in. And of course, in, in Alex's case, it's even more difficult because he's a trial lawyer. That's what he did for a living. So he was a criminal prosecutor and defense lawyer and primarily civil lawyer. But he's seen enough trials and been involved in enough trials that. And of course he thinks because he is a trial lawyer, he can be more convincing than, than, than the typical defendant. But I mean, I don't think he, we had, he had a choice or we had a choice in the first trial after. I mean, the fact that he had lied about not being down at the murder scene anytime that evening. He had to explain why. But.

[Mark Gargos]

And do you think in retrospective.

[Dick Harpoutlian]

Let me say this one last thing. Did it work or did it hurt us? It's hard to tell because we now know the Korka court was fixing the jury. I mean, it's really hard to evaluate whether that evidence. We did talk to two jurors who said they thought he did fine, but again, we can't evaluate and the state was allowed to put in all kinds of prejudicial stuff that shouldn't have been allowed.

[Mark Gargos]

Well, that's what I was going to say, can you imagine in retrospect if when you and I were talking before, as you're struggling, am I going to put him on? Because I've told people they don't understand the worst time for a defense lawyer is when the prosecution says we rest. Because then. And you know, my father used to say, no case gets better after the prosecution rests for the defense.

[Dick Harpoutlian]

And you're praying directed verdict judge, please don't make me go forward.

[Mark Gargos]

Yeah, exactly, exactly. Or God forbid, in federal court, you do a Rule 29 and the judge says, I'm going to take this under submission and see what the jury does. But the. Can you imagine if I told you, hey, Dick, don't worry about it, the clerk's going to go back there and put her finger on the scales of the justice in the jury room. I mean, I don't even get it. I don't understand it at all.

[Dick Harpoutlian]

I think, bizarre, but I mean, I've been doing this 50 years and I've never suspected. Thought about a jury, a clerk of court now maybe a deputy escorting him or a bailiff might say make some comment. But the cork of court had to have a concentrated, organized scheme to find help, find him guilty. Because she could sell more books. She's writing a book about the trial. I mean, that's just, she told people. It's, it's, you know, I'm ashamed of my state when I talk about her. I'm proud of my state. When you read the Supreme Court opinion giving us a new trial, I mean, they were apoplectic and, you know, even though this is a case nobody wanted to retry, they had the guts and to do the right thing.

[Mark Gargos]

Well, speaking of guts, this is. And you, you may not want to answer this. I, I know that if you said this to me in a similar situation, I'd probably hang up the phone or the video, but I never understood this case. They got directed to do basically an evidentiary hearing right Prior to getting to the Supreme Court.

[Dick Harpoutlian]

Yes. Pardon me.

[Mark Gargos]

They choose. They choose as a, basically a special matter, the former chief. Right.

[Dick Harpoutlian]

Former chief justice. Yes. Gene Toll. Yes.

[Mark Gargos]

What was she thinking?

[Dick Harpoutlian]

Well, what, what she was thinking was what we were afraid the Supreme Court might think that, that he is such a vilified. He stole $12 million from his clients. And the testimony, you know, he had a mentally disabled kid whose brother testified. I mean, he was, by the time we got to the evidentiary piece, he was vilified. So Justice Toll did two things, one right, one wrong. She made a factual finding that the cork of court attempted at the minimum attempted to influence jurors. But she said we had to show that it affected the verdict, which she was wrong legally. There's a case, federal case remmer United States Supreme Court case says not. Our Supreme Court reversed her, which I thought was interesting because most of them had served under her when she was chief and they took two seconds to just say she's wrong.

[Mark Gargos]

That was to me for the inside baseball and that's why I asked the question. The idea of appointing the former chief to go and do the hearing and then her former underlings on the court to reverse her was wild to me.

[Dick Harpoutlian]

It was wild. And I mean this case from the beginning, it's just been. When you say wild, it's just unpredictable. I mean, it's just I've been again half a century doing this. I've never seen anything like it and I never want to see anything like it again. I'm hoping the retrial. We've got a good judge who is a former defense criminal defense lawyer. I've known her for 35 years, Debbie McCaswin. She is, I think I just want a judge that's going to call balls and strikes. We did not have that on the first trial, so it ought to be quicker. And she read the Supreme Court case about this 404 other crimes evidence, what, what should and should not happen. So I'm comfortable that we're going to get a better, better result now whether we can get him acquitted or not. Again, every, every. I mean the potential. And we don't get attorney conducted wadir in South Carolina except in death penalty cases. So finding a jury that's going to be not predisposed is going to be tough.

[Matt Murphy]

There's an old adage, Dick, that I'm

[Mark Gargos]

sure you've heard before.

[Matt Murphy]

Doctors make the worst patients and lawyers make the worst clients for us. And of course Mark and I have talked before. Whenever you get a fraudster, you know, and I don't pretend to be even close to an expert on the facts of the fraud aspects on your client, but it seems like those guys always want to talk their way out of it. I don't know if that applies to your client in this case or not, but one of the things Mark and I have talked about a lot is the professional congeniality that we certainly used to have in Southern California. It still exists. But I picture the old south man. I picture like we were talking about off air. I picture Gregory Peck and To Kill a Mockingbird in the Seersucker suit and that sort of gentlemanly professionalism between the lawyers. Yeah, you could even use my cousin Vinnie as an example of that, where he goes down and he gets along just fine with the prosecutor, even though his client is innocent. I know Creighton Waters. He's always struck me as being real true blue. Prosecutor strikes me as an ethical guy. I've never done a case against him. But is it like that there in South Carolina, where the lawyers tend to

[Dick Harpoutlian]

get along pretty well in most instances? In instances it is. Now, this retrial with Creighton is not going to be as congenial because the Supreme Court has pointed out he put in evidence that he knew or should have known was not admissible, and this judge just rolled over and let him get it in.

[Matt Murphy]

Well, reversals happen, though, right? Not to cut you off. I mean, reversals do. It's a part of the business.

[Dick Harpoutlian]

Look, look, I was a prosecutor for 12 years. I get it. I've been reversed more times than I wanted to be. But I think that was a. A key part of his trial strategy. And, and we're going to be. We're going to be a little more combative. But, yes, generally speaking, it's congenial. I prosecuted the Gaskins case. A guy named Jack swirling defended it. Six months after that trial, I quit the DA's office. He quit who he was working for. We went into practice together for eight years, and we still do cases together. So. No, we. We. I'm good friends with a number of prosecutors around the state, and we can go into courtroom and beat each other's brains out and have lunch together. And. And, you know, I was.

[Mark Gargos]

I was going to ask you, Dick, I was going to ask you, because I was just in a courthouse this morning that I'm old enough to remember the judges smoking cigarettes and lawyers smoking cigarettes in the courtroom, on the council table and on the bench. You're old enough to remember the south. And you were just about to tell us off the air what it was like when you first started practicing in the South.

[Dick Harpoutlian]

Well, no air conditioning. Courtrooms had the main floor and then a balcony where African Americans were forced to sit. When I first started in 1975, women were only allowed on the jury beginning in 72. And African Americans, you know, you drew only from registered voters. African Americans have been denied participation of that. So your. Your juries tended to be all men, all white men. And so the lawyers were, most of whom were World War II veterans. But, you know, they were in there. They were old men in my opinion, you know, they're approaching 60 when, when I started. And they. Because of the lack, not the lack, but there was never any microphones or electronic magnific, you know, microphones, or any sort of magnification. The best lawyers were the bombastic bellowing lawyers that could fill the room with their voice. And I think of a guy named John Sloan who was about 6 foot 2 and, and unlike most of his, his com. His, his compatriots had white hair down to his shoulders and he was, I mean, when I say elite, he blue blood. His family been in this town since the 1700s. And he had a thick voice and he talked so loud that in every case, and I tried a bunch of them against him, he'd say, madam, for Mr. Foreman and many members of the jury apologize to you if I speak too loud. My daddy had the neck of a giraffe and my mama had the lungs of a bullfrog. Okay, every case. Now, he was not unique. Those, those guys, the World War II veterans, they wore, you know, hats. They did, we did smoke in the courtroom. I smoked three packs a day back then so we could smoke in the courtroom.

[Mark Gargos]

We were, I used to have a. There used to be a judge. I don't know if I've named him or not. He was in Santa Monica and he had a little refrigerator on the bench and you would hear him pop the beer cans and he could go through 23 beer cans. Judge Fitz. And he was still brighter and farther ahead than most of the lawyers appearing in front of him as he was. Shame smoking.

[Dick Harpoutlian]

I got a similar story. I'm a young prosecutor and there was an old guy that would come into the courtroom named Mr. Harrel. We called him Jiminy Cricket because he was old, almost 90 year old, former deputy. And he'd come in and he'd shake your water pitcher to see if there's any water in it, and if not, he'd take it out, fill it up and come back. So this guy named Kel Alexander, when I say the mountain of a man, again, World War II veteran, he's probably 280, 300 pounds, 6 foot 4. And he's up questioning a witness. And Mr. Harrell goes over and shakes his water pitcher and Kale sees him out of Cornwall's eye and screams at him, put that down. And so Mr. Harrell, put it down. Scurried out of the courtroom. And so at the break, I said, Mr. Alexander, you were really tough on Mr. Harrell. What, what was that about? So come over there. And he said, he opens his picture and sticks it under my nose. Vodka. He was doing vodka shots during the trial. And he, as far as I know, did it during most trials. And he's pretty good with the vodka shots. I mean, he's sharp as. Kick my ass four times.

[Mark Gargos]

I was going to say some of these guys, you know, here as I sit downtown, there was the Velvet Turtle, and then there was the Italian restaurant. And generally you come back for lunch and, you know, most of the judges were below to 0.20, and the lawyers weren't far behind, and they would. They would equip themselves pretty well in the afternoon.

[Matt Murphy]

My very first appearance ever as a junior law clerk, and this is 1992, that was my advice. I had a couple old guys, they were just like you're describing, Dick. One of them is a guy named Dave Zimmerman. Great guy, gentleman lawyer. You probably remember him. Mark, you swear a card nation everywhere. Good, good guy. Passed away a couple years ago. But I was told in no uncertain terms, make sure that whatever you do, you get your motion put after lunch because those guys will all be half in the bag. And they were both the defense team, not the judge. But, yeah, that's a different era in a lot of ways. Like that gentlemanly thing that we were talking about seems to be. I don't know. I personally love the congeniality of professionals, you know, women or men. And it seems like we're losing a little bit about that these days. Let me.

[Dick Harpoutlian]

Sorry, go ahead. Go ahead.

[Matt Murphy]

Yeah, I don't. I don't want to put you on the spot, but. And please don't answer it.

[Ro Health Advertiser]

If.

[Matt Murphy]

If I am. But one of the. One of the things about the Murdoch case I've always been. I've always wondered about is regarding the maid. That whole investigation with the. With the maid and the sons. Is that investigation still ongoing, if you can tell us, or is that as up in.

[Mark Gargos]

Put.

[Matt Murphy]

Put aside?

[Dick Harpoutlian]

You know, we don't know because the law enforcement doesn't talk to us. I don't know what they're doing. I will tell you. I mean, there's so many complications in this case. Not relevant to the murders. Okay. I mean, it. It's, you know, did. Did. Was. Was anybody involved in the death of Stephen Smith, the young man that was found dead on the side of the road? You know, propose. They may have been involved some way or not, but sweat is. Law enforcement's cleared them of that. Any ongoing investigation. And one of the things we're going to get is we're going to file a discovery motion on Monday. Tell us what you've got since then, since we finished this trial. And that'll give us a little better picture of what they've done or not doing or what they are doing.

[Matt Murphy]

Yeah. Another interesting thing on this thing that I've always been fascinated on this particular case. You know, some of the cases that Mark and I do professionally, and then the ones we talk about, the victims tend to be very sympathetic. And this kid, just based on what I've. What I've seen is not that he's not your sympathetic victim at all, that. That stuff with the. That poor girl that he. That he allegedly killed in the boating accident, that's an element to this one because you can get into the case and it's not one where, you know, the death of the victim necessarily breaks your heart. I hope that doesn't make me sound like a horrible person. But, yeah, that kid, you know, that when he crashed the truck and he's yelling on the side of the road and all that, he's just. He's not a very sympathetic victim. I've always thought that was an interesting dynamic on this one.

[Dick Harpoutlian]

The good news is the jury will hear none of that. Okay. So he'll be just as sympathetic as any dead kid. And, you know, the way I got into this case was I was hired originally to represent Paul in the boat case. You know, I didn't know Alec. I knew his father really well because his father Randolph, was the DA down that part of the state when I was the elected DA here. So we got to know each other. So his father recommended he hire me to represent Paul. But I knew I was with Paul and Alec and Maggie for over a year in this office at least once or twice a month, reviewing what we'd done on the investigation of the. Of the. Of the boat case.

[Mark Gargos]

But you know what's interesting to me, Dick? I haven't, I don't think ever talked to you about this, but the surviving son, what's his name?

[Dick Harpoutlian]

Buster.

[Mark Gargos]

Yeah, Buster. Buster is very supportive, or at least was last time around of his father. Correct, Correct. Still is and still is. So, you know, to me, as a defense lawyer or just kind of projecting into the jury box if I've got the really most sympathetic person, which is Buster, because by all accounts, Buster is the one who's really been victimized here totally. And he's supportive and he's in his dad's corner. It's hard for me to understand whose interest is being vindicated here. Ultimately, who's. The prosecution's interest is being vindicated. They've already, you know, the client's already been sentenced to God knows how many years on the federal side is my understanding.

[Dick Harpoutlian]

40. 40 years on the federal side, 28 on the state.

[Mark Gargos]

Yeah. So it's hard to understand what the, whose rights are being vindicated here because isn't Buster the basically last. Last guy standing?

[Dick Harpoutlian]

Yeah. And I mean it's, it's the, the case is about a number of things. I don't sure it's about. I mean the state will talk about how it's about the victims, but the, the relatives of Maggie's relatives are not screaming for, for you know, prosecution. Buster's obviously not screaming for prosecution. This is, this case has taken on a life of its own politically. I mean the. Alan Wilson who's the AG was running for governor and showed up for the trial. He right after the reversal as he's running for governor says he's going to. Thinking about going for the death penalty. I mean it's just been a political football. Hopefully since the elections are over, that aspect of it will, will go away and we'll get down to, you know, what are the facts. But you're right, there is nobody. But let me, let me go off on a tangent for just a second. When I was the DA here and as an assistant DA we didn't have this constitutional amendment. We have now the victims Bill of Rights. I don't represent as a prosecutor the victim. I represent the state of South Carolina. And so while I may be pursuing justice that will. Will justice is. I believe I can, I have a case in which I can convict a defendant, convince a jury beyond a reasonable doubt. It's not. I'm on this hell bent mission to vindicate the victims. And I think I say this in the book. I have dealt with a number of victims and prosecutor victims who, who wanted, you know, extreme sentence or wanted the death penalty because it's going to end it for them or in some way resolve it for them or, or, or you know, bring, bring peace to them. Never seen it happen. I mean somebody ever. I mean it's not right.

[Mark Gargos]

There's no. This idea of closure is one of the great misnomers of all time. I don't know Murphy's going to jump on me here, but.

[Matt Murphy]

No, I agree, I totally agree. Closure. Closure doesn't happen. But justice does.

[Dick Harpoutlian]

Justice does.

[Matt Murphy]

You're right. Psychological, psychological closure. Yeah, I totally agree Mark. It's, it's. I hate that word and so do I.

[Mark Gargos]

So do I. Yeah, it's just.

[Matt Murphy]

Especially for parents of a murdered child. Like their, their life is never the same. Somebody you love gets murdered, it's never the same. There's no closure. But you can get justice depending on the case.

[Dick Harpoutlian]

I prosecuted over over 100 murder cases and I can tell you in none of them after the verdict came in and I think I convicted 98 again, you shouldn't be prosecuting a case. You don't think you can convince a jury beyond reasonable doubt. So winning. You're supposed to win all of them. Okay. But I never ever remember a single victim. I mean, they thanked me for prosecuting the case, but that their lives changed for the better after that verdict came in.

[Mark Gargos]

And

[Dick Harpoutlian]

I, you know, I got invited to Gaskin's execution. I didn't go. And, and the victims that want to watch somebody, he was electrocuted, his eyeballs exploded, his hair caught on fire. You know, he died a horrible death. Why would you, why would you a, as a prosecutor want to watch that? I mean, that makes me no better than him. And two, as a, as a victim, that's, that's what you want to remember. I mean, that's, that's. I mean, the death of your loved one was bad enough. Now you watch this guy basically tortured and killed. Now maybe, maybe, of course, we have the firing squad here now, which is apparently is being chosen by more inmates than not. And you also have lethal injection now. But I don't know what you get out of that, watching somebody die. I don't never have quite understood that.

[Mark Gargos]

Wow.

[Matt Murphy]

Yeah, I think for some of them, it vindicates their anger. I think that's a victim specific thing. And we've all done a million murders. It's probably victim by victim, family by family. I know some guys that would flip the switch themselves. And I know some families that would be totally with you on that, that they wouldn't want to see it.

[Mark Gargos]

So.

[Matt Murphy]

Probably varies case to case, I would say. But it's a real pleasure meeting you, Dick. I've heard a lot about you. Any friend of Mark is a friend of Min. And I just love the accents you guys have. So congratulations on the reversal. And when do you think the trial's gonna go? Well, it's gonna.

[Dick Harpoutlian]

We're gonna have a hearing on Monday to begin that discussion. Let me tell you this. The headline on the paper should have been dog catches car. Okay? I mean, it's, yes, we won, it's a great victory, but now we got, you know, another year of work to do. And everybody know everybody. Because of all the press and watching the first trial, most of the jurors know the case as well as we do and, and it's going to be really tough to get a jury. We're thinking this time next year, late spring, early summer, would be enough time to get things ready. But, you know, there's going to be a lot.

[Matt Murphy]

My old boss, Dave Bryant used to say a gentleman never tries a case in summertime. So hopefully they got the HD working

[Mark Gargos]

for you, especially here.

[Dick Harpoutlian]

Here. You know, Monty.

[Matt Murphy]

Yeah.

[Dick Harpoutlian]

You don't want to try it in South Carolina in the summer. That's right. That's right.

[Mark Gargos]

Thank you, everybody. Pick up Dick's book it. Dig me a grave. It really is a tremendous yarn to steal your term and thank you, Dick. I will talk to you soon. We miss you. Next up, we've got a viral video hand picked by Mr. Murphy, so stay tuned.

[Ro Health Advertiser]

Want a thousand dollar weight loss medication for 50. $50. It all starts with Ro's free GLP1 insurance check. Just upload your insurance card to see if you have coverage. Then relax. Over 200,000 people have qualified for a $50 copay through Roe. Go to Roe Co Health. Half of covered patients have a $50 per month copay or less for medication, plus $1.45 monthly Roe membership fee. Deductible cost may apply and final cost varies by insurance plan. For safety information about GLP1 medications, including boxed warning, go to ro co safetyrxonly.

[DSW Advertiser]

You know that thing where you get an amazing pair of shoes at a really great price and want to tell everyone about it?

[Udemy Advertiser]

Yeah.

[DSW Advertiser]

So do we here at Designer Shoe Warehouse. We'll give you something to brag about, like the latest styles from brands you love or the trends everyone's obsessing over or shoes that make you feel like, well, you. So go ahead, show off a little. Find shoes that get you the prices that get your budget. Head to your DSW store or dsw.com today. DSW. Let us surprise you.

[Matt Murphy]

So, Mark, I saw this on the Internet recently and I as soon as I this out, I wanted to get your take on it if we could play sought one. Guys. I want to. I want to get Mark's reaction. This is really interesting. You could play it.

[Mark Gargos]

Let's go, big dog. Let's go, big dog. What's going on?

[Matt Murphy]

What's up, bunch of hoes?

[DSW Advertiser]

Let's go.

[Narrator/Advertiser]

You dusting?

[Mark Gargos]

Partying, man. You, bro. All right, just, just relax.

[Dick Harpoutlian]

I'll fight you right now.

[Mark Gargos]

No, I don't Want to fight, bro? I'll go with you right now, bro. I don't want to fight, bro. I don't want to fight.

[Narrator/Advertiser]

I don't want to fight.

[Ro Health Advertiser]

Let's go.

[Narrator/Advertiser]

Radio.

[Mark Gargos]

Have you. Yeah, tell them, tell them. Come on, get a couple here, cuz.

[Matt Murphy]

It's going to be bad.

[Mark Gargos]

Relax, relax, bro. Relax, relax, bro. Relax, bro. I'm going bang you up, bro. They kicked him off. This guy's a UFC fighter. Ass. What's going on, brother? Talk to me.

[Matt Murphy]

The Beast is lime holes, man.

[Mark Gargos]

Arrest me. That's the best way, dog. All right, now, you did a great job. You did a great job. You did what you could.

[Matt Murphy]

Okay, so the guy in that video is getting Dustin Poirier. He is a beast. This guy's a recently retired MMA fighter. He. And he was a. He was a world beater. You know, MMA is an interesting sport, but this is one of those things. It's like if Bruce Lee or Muhammad Ali or one of these guys who's physically just with his fists so fricking dangerous, and the police officer there recognized him and what had happened is he's traveling with a bunch of friends. He gets kicked off a plane for being drunk, Mark. And comes out and is super combative with the police. And the first cop is like, man, I don't want to fight you, bro. I don't want to fight you.

[Mark Gargos]

I. Under no circumstances am I fighting you.

[Matt Murphy]

Right, right. And then the second cop shows up.

[Dick Harpoutlian]

Who.

[Matt Murphy]

I mean, Poirier was a. He is a. He's a lightweight, like in the 150 pound class. That second cop looked to me like he was about 100 or £240 in all business. So he. He saw. Saw the light and surrendered. But that is. I wanted to talk to you about this because so many cases that I've prosecuted over the years that you've defended, you've got that, the drunk right. You get the guy who may not be a bad person when he's sober, who loses it, and he's a terrible drunk. So he's made a couple of public statements about how he's recognized he's got a problem and he needs to get his life straightened out and just ballpark the violent cases you've dealt with over your careers, Mark, like from domestic violence all the way up through. Through murder, what percentage would you say that either alcohol or drugs are on board?

[Mark Gargos]

Oh, it's for substance abuse. I used to say, if you would sit in the criminal courts building, especially in the 80s and 90s, I used to There was a judge here, they used to say it was the cocaine possession or possession for sale was the parking ticket of the LA Superior Court. But if you then extend it out and say how much does or how related are substance abuses to the criminal justice system? 80%.

[Matt Murphy]

80%. At least. Some of it might be bad blood between neighbors. Where there's a fight, maybe somebody's sober, but gotta be 80%. It's probably 80% in homicide cases too.

[Mark Gargos]

Oh, I think in homicide it may even be more.

[Matt Murphy]

Might even be more.

[Mark Gargos]

Yeah. I mean, the homicide, the kind of X factor is always if there's a financial gain or a money component, but also that also has kind of roots a lot of times in substance abuse as well. So it's a phenomenal insight. And I. Speaking of which, I'm going to tie up your video with our Stealth as well. I represented Caden Velasquez when he was. His kid was molested in a famous MMA fighter up in Santa Clara. His kid was molested and was not substance abuse related. But Cain went and went after the molester and ended up being charged with a lifetop sentence. Speaking of prosecutors, we used to have in that courtroom in Santa Clara, the courtroom would be filled with supporters and the poor DA was a young kid and I remember looking over him and this kid was like, this isn't what I signed up for, where I'm prosecuting some, you know, revered MMA fighter who's going after the child molester of his kid. Talk about a bad kind of a place to be when you're a prosecutor. I used to tease him, I said, now you know how I feel as a defense lawyer. Except you're sitting on the prosecution side and people want to hurl stuff at you.

[Matt Murphy]

Yeah, well, they just had that guy in. Oh, gosh, was it Arkansas who killed his, killed the, the, the molester of his daughter who got out on bail and she disappears and he, he finds them first and kills him, Kills the guy, shoots him multiple times, gets her out of the car as he's being prosecuted. He's running for sheriff, he wins the election. Just, I mean, just. You can't make it up.

[Mark Gargos]

I know, it's just.

[Matt Murphy]

And then they dumped the case, they dismissed the case and made the decision that it was self defense. But this one is interesting to me because there's exactly what you were talking about in the online comments. There's been an outpouring of support for this guy, but what's different about that? He's not beating up a person who molested his Child, he's just a bad drunk and he gets out. And that is, it's interesting to me because on one hand, and I don't know if I've ever told you this, Mark, I'm the only person in my family who hasn't either been in AA or in my immediate family, AA or rehab in one way or another. Everybody has struggled with it at some point. Both my mom, my dad, like almost every uncle, almost every aunt, you know, and my brother and sister each, you know, my sister's doing great, but it very much runs in the family. So I'm torn between sort of a, you know, a gut sympathy towards a guy who's trying to straighten his life out. But at the same time, there's nothing in the world worse than a bully drunk. And that cop showed amazing restraint in my mind because he's, you know, he's trained to use deadly force. And when, if, if you believe as a police officer that somebody is capable of inflicting death or great bodily injury on you, usually that's by a weapon. But with an MMA fighter, a professional fighter like that, and it was a one on one at the beginning, I don't know, man, he, if he pressed that, that is a, that's a dangerous situation because that police officer, under those circumstances, had he gone after him, might have been justified in the use of legal force. And you know what they charged him with on that, Mark? Just a drunken public. And I don't think there's a gift. You talk about a gift, right? And I don't think there's been any federal interest in it. So I'm not even sure he gets on the no fly list. And I think what he should do, every interview I've seen so far, and I might have missed the one where he did it, he ought to be apologizing to everybody on that flight because, you know, they got delayed. He should have applied, he should apologize to the Delta staff and he's dropping N bombs and all that. He's from Louisiana, he's a white guy. And he should apologize to those cops and he should then thank them because in California, to be a 647F, that's a nothing criminal charge. Drunk in public, they could have done him for assault on a police officer. And for the viewer it is assault.

[Mark Gargos]

I can't tell you how many times I have defended people who've been pulled off planes because they were drunk and get fed, get federally prosecuted.

[Matt Murphy]

Yeah, right. And, and I mean, not a 647 F. Yeah.

[Mark Gargos]

Not, not a 647 F where you do, you know, you're in your backyard, you go do an eight hour class and you get it dismissed.

[Dick Harpoutlian]

Right?

[Matt Murphy]

So this is a, this is an interesting one. I hope he gets the help he needs. I hope he's sincere in what he's saying. But it also, at the same time he ought to apologize to those cops. And I wouldn't break my heart if they put him on the no fly list for a year. And I think that people don't want to support him. I think that holding him accountable is a good way to go. I hope he gets the help he needs. Quick tale here from in the well, Mark and I always try to add personal story at the end. Last week Mark and I were talking about this really interesting case about

[Dick Harpoutlian]

this

[Matt Murphy]

big settlement that's in the billions of dollars for this, this sort of systematic sexual abuse of people that were within the LA probation system. And Mark and I talked about it and I was on my dive trip when a bunch of this happened. Mark brought it up very properly and I immediately got a flurry of emails. Mark, not the first time that Mark's got me in trouble. Usually it was my boss getting mad at me for giving away the store because Mark would talk me into some great deal that I gave his client. But I got a call from, or a text message initially from a really good friend of mine named Courtney, Tom, and she's, I didn't know this. She's one of the lawyers on that case, Mark. She's one of the plaintiffs. She works with a guy named John Manley, who for the viewers, yeah, you must know John, that he represented a bunch of sexual assault victims against Larry Nassar in the Michigan State case. There was the US Gymnast team. And you know, this is a really interesting area of the law. There are plenty of lawyers out there who bring cases that don't have a lot of merit. And there's a certain class of lawyers who represent the victims of sexual assault. And I have deep sense for them.

[Mark Gargos]

Did Courtney excoriate you?

[Matt Murphy]

Courtney is a woman. She is a good friend of mine and I never want to be on her bad side, which is why I

[Mark Gargos]

want to, by the way, can I, I, I'm going to defend, I don't know Courtney, I don't think, but she works for Manley. Manley got a, you know, they, I, I don't know that people want to get in the weeds. Manley, I believe separately settled because he saw what was going on. Manley did not think what was happening. Was kosher, so to speak. So. And, And I think I believe I have insight into that for reasons I can't disclose, but. Yeah, Courtney, Matt was not slamming you. He was slamming.

[Matt Murphy]

Thank you.

[Mark Gargos]

The same people that your Manly was also slamming. Yeah, no, Manly doesn't know what I'm talking about. He's. I think he coined the phrase farts in a theater seat. And I'll just leave it at that.

[Matt Murphy]

Yeah. Mark Manley. I have. I, I mean, John Manley, I have infinite respect for what he does. And Courtney is one of the best lawyers I've ever known. And there's another guy, Dave Ring, in la, that you. You probably also.

[Mark Gargos]

Mark, those are.

[Matt Murphy]

These are some of the best people to represent victims of sexual abuse, especially against institutions. My comments last week were. And I, I think Mark And I agree 100 on this one. Like, when you deal with LA local government enough, you start losing faith pretty quick. And I've never shared this story with you, Mark, but I got kicked out of my house in high school. I had problems with my dad. I got taken in by a family in the Pacific Palisades. Took me in for my junior year, a good portion of it. Their name was Donna and Art Maffei, and they lived in the Casamar section of the Palisades. They'd lived in their house for over 60 years, and they were victims of that fire. And when you move an old couple out of. Out of a place like that, they weren't killed by the fire, but it was traumatic for them, and they both died within about six months of each other. And that family and a lot of people in the Palisades, they hold local government accountable for that, at least amongst themselves. There's a lot of anger in the Palisades and an anger I sympathize with. And so when you talk about settlements in the billions of dollars, that's not a criticism of the victims of that. It's not a criticism of the fine lawyers involved in that case. But I just have a. I have very little faith in the local government of la.

[Mark Gargos]

Tell Courtney she's wrong. You were right.

[Matt Murphy]

She is a phenomenal lawyer. One of the best people.

[Ro Health Advertiser]

Correct.

[Matt Murphy]

We worked together for years.

[Mark Gargos]

They settled separately, so they saw what was happening. So, yeah, they shouldn't. They shouldn't mistake what you were saying or what I was saying.

[Matt Murphy]

I hope not. I just want to make the record clear on that. Those guys, they're the good guys. Those lawyers are rock solid. And. Yeah, anyway, that's. I just wanted to put that, Put that out there. So, Courtney, if you're watching nothing but love, as they say, and zero criticism from Mark or myself. So I want to thank our guest, Dick Harpoutlian.

[Mark Gargos]

Look at you with your Armenian pronunciation.

[Matt Murphy]

Yeah, there we go. I want to thank my co host, as always. And thanks to all of you for tuning in the well. Hope everybody has an awesome weekend.

[Mark Gargos]

I can't believe they're having a gender reveal for their dog. No, no, no.

[Matt Murphy]

This is a breed reveal.

[Mark Gargos]

Oh.

[Matt Murphy]

So, yeah, they're finding out the breed of the puppy they're rescuing, so they

[Mark Gargos]

could just be spending all their money on, like, pet insurance.

[Matt Murphy]

Instead, we got lemonade for Roscoe, and it covered vaccines, microchipping. We saved 90% on vet bills.

[Dick Harpoutlian]

Oh, here we go.

[Mark Gargos]

What do you think beige confetti means?

[Dick Harpoutlian]

I don't know.

[Matt Murphy]

That we'll never get this Saturday back.

[Mark Gargos]

Get a quote for any [e-mail] pet

[DSW Advertiser]

why have I asked my h vac guy I found on angie.com to change my grandpa's trachea tube? I was so amazed at how we replaced our air duct, I knew I could trust him to change Pop Pop's tube.

[Mark Gargos]

I think we should call a doctor, Angie, the one you trust to find the ones you trust. Find pros for all your home [e-mail].