The Strategy Behind Alex Murdaugh’s New Trial, and BOMBSHELL Theory on Blake Lively’s Lawsuit, with Heather McDonald

Summary

---

MK True Crime: The Strategy Behind Alex Murdaugh’s New Trial, and BOMBSHELL Theory on Blake Lively’s Lawsuit

Podcast: MK True Crime
Host: MK Media (Matt Murphy & Mark Geragos)
Guest: Heather McDonald
Episode Date: May 15, 2026

---

Episode Overview

This episode dives into two headline-making legal cases: the reversal of Alex Murdaugh's murder convictions and the bombshell lawsuit drama between Blake Lively and Justin Baldoni, featuring insight from comedian, podcaster, and pop culture commentator Heather McDonald. With candid and often humorous exchanges, veteran attorneys Matt Murphy and Mark Geragos unpack legal strategy, celebrity courtroom behavior, and crisis management—culminating in McDonald's provocative theory on the motivations behind Lively's actions.

---

Segment 1: Alex Murdaugh’s Murder Convictions Overturned

Timestamps: 01:05–16:00

Key Discussion Points

• Background ([01:30]):

  • Alex Murdaugh, prominent South Carolina attorney, convicted for the murders of his wife and son amid broader fraud scandals.
  • Issues with the trial: Clerk of court Becky Hill allegedly influenced jurors while securing a book deal, impacting the verdict.

• Rare Reversal in High-Profile Cases ([03:58]–[04:07]):

  • Conviction overturned after an evidentiary hearing by a retired state Supreme Court Chief Justice.
  • "Nothing as a slam dunk reversal when you're dealing in a high profile case, let alone a high profile murder case." — Mark Geragos ([03:58])
  • Judges’ personal ties to staff complicate reversals; still, an unexpected decision by state Supreme Court for new trial.

• Defense Dilemmas: To Testify or Not ([05:56]–[09:01]):

  • Debate on whether Murdaugh should have taken the stand—a perennial strategic challenge for defense lawyers.
  • Geragos shares a cautionary tale: "The foreman of the jury said, ‘Oh, we were never going to convict until he took the stand.’" ([11:30])

• Dynamics in Retrials ([14:24]–[15:33]):

  • Retrials are grueling for prosecutors; defense can leverage “prior jury couldn’t decide” to introduce doubt.
  • "Trying a case for a second time is like putting on a wet bathing suit." — Matt Murphy ([14:48])

Memorable Quotes

• “Every jury trial is a controlled train wreck. Everything always goes wrong.” — Matt Murphy ([05:32])
• "You’re somebody…sitting there in a concrete box...and you’re going to match wits with some prosecutor...It makes no sense." — Mark Geragos ([11:58])
• "Retrials are brutal." — Matt Murphy ([14:48])

---

Segment 2: BOMBSHELL Theory on Blake Lively’s Lawsuit with Justin Baldoni

Timestamps: 17:13–38:48 (main discussion)

Key Discussion Points

• Heather McDonald’s Unexpected Take ([18:00]–[24:50]):

  • At first, Heather sympathized with Lively, noting online smear campaigns are real.
  • Changed her mind after reviewing the accusations and raw footage: didn’t see legitimate harassment.
  • Theory: Lively wanted a professional “workplace crush,” Baldoni did not reciprocate, setting off a chain between Lively, her husband Ryan Reynolds, and their lawyers.
  • "She wanted a bigger role in producing...but also...like any mother who's pushing 40 with four kids...wanted to have a workplace crush." — Heather McDonald ([19:25])

• Events Spiraling Out of Control ([20:03]–[23:23]):

  • Suggests communication between Lively and Reynolds about Baldoni led to escalation.
  • Poor strategic choices: Lively went public and legal, instead of letting the issue fade.
  • Fallout: Both reputations suffered; McDonald sees the whole situation as avoidable.
  • "The lesson is...put your phone down." — Heather McDonald ([21:29])

• The Dailies, Counterclaims, and the “Streisand/Lively Effect” ([24:00]–[31:40]):

  • Footage (dailies) undermined Lively’s claims; Baldoni’s production company retained exculpatory evidence.
  • Mark Geragos theorizes legal teams rushed to mediation to shield themselves from malpractice suits after costly missteps.
  • "If you settle your case at a private mediation, the lawyers cannot get sued for malpractice...I think that's what was behind it." — Mark Geragos ([29:38])
  • "The Streisand Effect, I think now is the Lively effect." — Mark Geragos ([31:40])

• Celebrity Crisis Management & Reputational Recovery ([33:35]–[38:00]):

  • Discussion of how controversy could have faded if left alone.
  • Heather asserts Lively can recover: "She just has to be in something good again...and nobody will care about it."
  • McDonald offers herself as a "Real Housewives consultant" and jokes about crisis therapist career.
  • Persuasive optimism: Both lawyers change their minds about Lively's comeback after hearing Heather’s logic.

Memorable Quotes

• "Just be a delight on the next show and they'll forget about it." — Heather McDonald ([32:51])
• "If you had asked me before I heard that, I would have said she's not coming back from this. Now I'm convinced." — Mark Geragos ([38:09])
• "There's going to be another scandal and then she's going to pop up in a Netflix series...people go, ‘Yeah, what was that whole thing with that Justin guy?’" — Matt Murphy ([38:26])

---

Segment 3: Bonus — Legal War Stories and Reflections

Timestamps: 41:43–48:46

Key Discussion Points

• Swalwell Scandal & LA Legal Drama ([41:49]–[47:40]):
  • Mark and Matt recount a recent LA political scandal involving conflicts of interest and ethical dilemmas with lawyers and prosecutors related to Eric Swalwell.
  • Highlights the tangled web of professional cross-connections in high-stakes legal circles.
  • Matt muses how true crime bridges political divides: "It's human relationships in its most basic way..."

Notable Moment

• "Prosecutorial power and politics are always a toxic cocktail." — Quoting Judge Greg Jones ([48:05])
• The hosts reaffirm “true crime” as unifying and profound, transcending political nastiness.

---

Noteworthy Timestamps

• Alex Murdaugh Case Overview: [01:30]–[07:00]
• Defense Strategy & Testifying Dilemma: [09:01]–[12:29]
• Retrial Discussion: [14:20]–[15:33]
• Heather McDonald on Blake Lively Lawsuit: [18:00]–[38:48]
• Swalwell/LA Legal War Stories: [41:49]–[47:40]

---

Final Thoughts

Tone & Style:
The episode blends serious legal analysis with sharp wit, industry anecdotes, and frank, often unfiltered, pop culture observations. Heather McDonald provides off-beat, insider commentary that reframes the celebrity lawsuit saga, while Mark Geragos and Matt Murphy dig into legal nuance and real-world consequences.

For the Listener:
Even if you missed the episode, you’ll leave understanding why the Murdaugh retrial is monumental, how celebrities (and their lawyers) can sabotage their own narratives, and why sometimes the best legal advice is just to let scandals pass. The interplay between legal war stories, crisis PR logic, and celebrity gossip makes for a compelling, multidimensional true crime episode.

---

Heather McDonald can be found on her podcasts: Juicy Scoop (Tues/Thurs) and Juicy Crimes (Wednesdays).

Follow Matt Murphy at MattMurphyLaw on Instagram.

---

Transcript

[Mark Geragos]

Dish has been connecting communities like yours for the last 45 years, providing the TV you love at a price you can trust. Watch live sports news and the latest movies, plus your favorite streaming apps all in one place. Switch to Dish today and lock in the lowest price in satellite TV starting at $89.99 a month with our two year price guarantee. Call 888-add-D Dish or visit dish.com today.

[Lemonade Pet Insurance Announcer]

If you're an experienced pet owner, you already know that having a pet is 25% belly rubs, 25% yelling drop it. And 50% groaning at the bill from every vet visit. Which is why Lemonade Pet Insurance is tailor made for your pet and can save you up to 90% on vet bills. It can help cover checkups, emergencies, diagnostics, basically all the stuff that makes your bank account nervous. Claims are filed super easy through the Lemonade app and half get settled instantly. Get a'@lemonade.com pet and they'll help cover the vet bill for whatever your pet swallowed after you yelled drop it.

[Mark Geragos]

Foreign.

[Matt Murphy]

Welcome to in the well. I'm Matt Murphy, former homicide prosecutor and I'm joined by my co host and friend Mark Garagos, criminal defense attorney to the stars. Today on the show, we're going to get into the latest on the Blake Lively Justin Baldoni saga with our friend Heather McDonald. But first, Mark, let's start with the Alex Murdaugh news. His murder convictions have been overturned. What do you think?

[Mark Geragos]

Well, this is a perfect example of kind of the problems that swirl around high profile cases. For those who don't remember, Alex Murdoch was a very prominent South Carolina lawyer who was, I want to say third or fourth generation in that community, kind of thought of as a, a pillar of the community. Then he it became apparent that there was some embezzlement of client funds followed up on the heels of the death of his wife and son. And he was tried for murder, my friend. As you see there, Dick Harpoutlian was his one of his co lead counsel. Dick tried I thought a spectacular case truth be told. Remember talking to Dick when they were deciding the hardest decision Matt that a defense lawyer ever asked to make do I put my client on the stand and there is my I often invoke my father as he often said, his favorite line. It's a rare case that gets better for the defense after the prosecution rests. Meaning if you can't try your case from a defense lawyer within the confines of the prosecution's case in and make your case through cross examination and basically the opening, then you're somewhat desperate. Well, he put murder on and I thought he did pretty well. I really did. But unbeknownst to the defense, the clerk of the court, a woman named, I think Becky Hill, decided she already had a book deal of some kind. That book deal, she surmised, would be better if he was convicted. She went into the jury room and started badmouthing, if you will, the accused and he ended up getting convicted. Now you would think this is a slam dunk reversal. Well, you haven't been around the criminal courts much. There's nothing as a slam dunk reversal when you're dealing in a high profile case, let alone a high profile murder case. The judge did a hearing and I like this judge. I don't know about you, Matt. Did you watch much of the trial?

[Matt Murphy]

I watched a bunch. I did too. Kind of a no nonsense, old school. One of the senior jurors in the, in the county. And I thought he did. I thought he did a very good job.

[Mark Geragos]

I really did too. And what a tough spot for him to be in. Judges and their clerks, if they've been around for a while, generally bond. And he obviously had affection for her. And so he denies the motion for a new trial and it goes up to the intermediate court who then appoints, as I remember. Correct me if I'm wrong, Matt, but I think they appointed the ex chief justice of their state supreme court. So that's right. Right here you've got a retired supreme court justice in that state above the fray and she does an evidentiary hearing and she makes this off the wall findings and ruling that was incomprehensible to me. It ends up going to the full court and they reversed. And I don't think a lot of people saw it coming. I obviously, because of my great deal of affection for Dick, was hoping so I admit that he would prevail, but he's got to be. And I haven't talked to him, just texted. Congratulations. He's got to have mixed emotions. I hate to speak for him because having gone through that to. And I've been there where you get it reversed and you, you're. You feel great for the client, but you're also kind of angry and it's. Matt, you've been there on the other side, have you not?

[Matt Murphy]

Oh yeah, more times than I can count, unfortunately. And it is every. I had an old boss, Mark, who used to say told us that every jury trial is a controlled train wreck. Everything always goes wrong. Your lead detective gets suspended for something that has nothing to do with the case your main witness gets in a car accident. I mean, you've seen this even more than I have. Everything is a giant train wreck.

[Mark Geragos]

And so comes for the prosecution how many times in the middle of a trial, I mean, it's inevitable the prosecution prosecutor will come up to me sheepishly with some exculpatory evidence that they didn't have possession of. And they, you have to turn it over and you just see the crestfallen look like, oh my God, this is going to be the worst.

[Matt Murphy]

Yeah. And the thing is if you're dealing with a prosecutor that's ethical and a straight shooter, you know right away that that's somebody who put a report in the, in their, in their binder and it didn't make it in and you know that it is an innocent mistake. And of course there are some out there that, that will cheat to win. You know, we're going to do a big segment on a case I had out of LA that not, not a deputy DA in L. A but a, but a special prosecutor. Let me ask you this about and I don't want you to give away any confidences. So don't, don't, you know, don't answer if you, if you think it's bad. But when you talk about guys like Murdoch, right? So he, he's separately convicted of all of these fraud and you know, these, he's got I think a 40 year federal sentence and a separate consecutive 27 year state sentence. So he's probably never getting out even regardless of what happens on the murder. But how much do you think a guy like that, you've represented a bunch of these high profile guys that are used to the world kind of falling at their feet if they make their way through life and their currency is kind of that fast talk, manipulation, sort of the fraudster type personality that I've encountered a little bit in private practice. Like they're all slick, they've all got a story. You know, I think that for some of those guys, they really, they will fight with their lawyer and go against their lawyer's better advice and insist on taking the stand. Right. So how much of that do you think might have happened in this case? Again, without giving any way away any confidence is what do you, what do you think here?

[Lemonade Pet Insurance Announcer]

If you're an experienced pet owner, you already know that having a pet is 25% belly rubs, 25% yelling drop it. And 50% groaning at the bill from every vet visit. Which is why lemonade pet insurance is tailor made for your pet and can Save you up to 90% on vet bills. It can help cover checkups, emergencies, diagnostics, basically all the stuff that makes your bank account nervous. Claims are filed super easy through the Lemonade app and half get settled instantly. Get a'@lemonade.com pet and they'll help cover the vet bill for whatever your pet swallowed after you yelled drop it.

[Heather McDonald]

Emoji moment from Mark, who writes, I just want to thank you for making GLP1s affordable.

[Lemonade Pet Insurance Announcer]

What would have been over $1,000 a

[Heather McDonald]

month is just $99 a month with Mochi. Money shouldn't be a barrier to healthy weight. Three months in and I have smaller jeans and a bigger wallet. You're the best. Thanks, Mark. I'm Mayra Amit, founder of Mochi Health. To find your mochi moment, visit joinmochi.com Mochi members have access to licensed physicians

[Lemonade Pet Insurance Announcer]

and nutritionists and are compensated for their stories. Results may vary so I have this

[Mark Geragos]

story and stop me if I've already told you, but I tried a case many years ago and I thought it was about as good a defense. To my point, I tried the defense within a murder case, within the prosecution's case in chief. And in my humble opinion, one of my top 10 kind of things just fell into place and we got to the point where the prosecution rested and the last witness had been speaking of train wrecks. It was a train wreck of epic proportion for the prosecution. So we ended on a high note. They had brought this person in. They thought this person was going to testify to one thing. By the time we got done with Cross, it was a disaster. He was a smart ass, whole thing. I turned to my client and I said, you know, this is, we couldn't end any better. He said, I'm taking the stand. And I said, no, you're not taking the stand. I mean, I know it's your decision, but no. And we fought about it and I got so upset that I marched him into chambers and I told the judge ex parte this was over my dead body, pun intended. Objection. I it could not turn out well, blah, blah, blah. And the the judge did what he did because it's one of the two decisions that a client holds that the lawyer cannot overrule. That one is the right to testify. So we testified. I wouldn't take it. I let my associate take him and you know, to his credit, the first day did great. By the time the DA got done with him on the second day, he was starting to wobble. But the DA did what you guys sometimes do he went into the North Carolina full court press and he just, he just kind of ran out the clock on a Friday, came back Monday and it was over. And so one of these shows, Dateline or 2020 or somebody, did a, an episode on it, and the episode became an interview, the centerpiece with the foreman of the jury. And the foreman of the jury said, oh, we were never going to convict until he took the stand. And famous last words of the client to me was, I don't want to end up like OJ So, so right after that trial and that episode airs, I fly to Vegas and I have Mike Tyson, who was a client, then pick me up in the car from the airport to take me to wherever Mike and I were going for some legal thing. Mike Tyson had just seen that episode. And Mike Tyson did 20 minutes, and this is before his one man routine or one man show or any of that stuff. He and Kiki are in the car, his wife and he did the funniest 20 minutes about, I don't want to end up like O.J. on somebody being in prison because they insisted on taking the stand that I've ever heard. If he could have, if he could recreate that, he'd never have to work again. And it just goes to show you, you're never, you're somebody who's sitting there in a concrete box and you're taken to court and you're fed a baloney sandwich at lunch and you have, you get no sleep and you're just. And you're going to match wits with some prosecutor who's, well, rest, has had, you know, a wonderful steak dinner the night before and is going to do. It makes no sense.

[Matt Murphy]

Yeah. I can't tell you how many cases I had, Mark, where I was struggling when we rested and that. And the defendant hits the stand and it changes. It's like a whole new trial. Changes everything. So I should probably say full disclosure. I know Creighton Waters. He was the special prosecutor in that. I've always really liked him. I was probably sending him a text the same time you were texting your buddy.

[Mark Geragos]

I was going to say, and by the way, he was taking the victory lap when he was playing in his band afterwards, wasn't he?

[Matt Murphy]

Oh, yeah, he's an interesting guy, but he's also, he's one of those career prosecutors. He's the real deal. And, you know, I just saw an interview with him on abc, my side gig and with George Stephanopoulos. And Creighton was all pro. He just, he set up and Said the easiest thing to do here is just re tee it, which is a golf analogy. Re tee it and go again. And they're going to, they're going to do it again. And you know, that cross examination, of course, for the viewers, the Supreme Court of Georgia reversed it, of course, for misconduct with the clerk. And they also, they took a couple of little like chopped some of the, some of the edges off. Some of the, some of the motive. The motive evidence concerning the fraud. They said a little too much that came in, but that his testimony is fair game for trial number two. And you know they're going to. When you got a professional prosecutor who's going to be able to parse that out, my guess is he does not testify in the second trial because I just think there's too much material there and you get anything wrong, even if you use a different, a different word to describe the same thing, prosecutor like Crayton Waters is going to be in his dish pointing that out. This would be interesting to watch.

[Mark Geragos]

It's got, it's like a video depot, too. I mean.

[Matt Murphy]

Yeah, no, that's right. The whole thing. Yeah.

[Mark Geragos]

Show clips that. Yeah. Because I've had this argument, you find, and I've asked you this before and I don't remember if it was on or off camera. For those who. When I always say that, because Matt and I, we, we tell nothing but war stories. What you get here is how we actually talk normally in terms of telling stories. You like retrials? More or less.

[Matt Murphy]

Oh, God. So one of the. There's an expression. No, I hate retrials. Trying a case for a second time is like putting on a wet bathing suit. Trying a case for a third time is like putting on a wet, sandy bathing suit. And that's the way, that's the way I feel about it. They're just. Retrials are brutal.

[Mark Geragos]

There are prosecutors who love the retrials. And I always think that a good prosecutor does not. And I will tell you why. Because I think it gives. A competent defense lawyer can use a retrial to their advantage every single time. First of all, it telegraphs to the jury. The prior jury could make a decision. There's something here. Don't you just think this is a slam dunk?

[Matt Murphy]

Oh, yeah. I mean, yeah, that. I, yeah. I, I hate retrying cases. I, I hate trying cases even if I'm the, if it's my first for cases that were tried by somebody else that came back and got reversed. Even those are kind of brutal because it's just It. It feels like it's twice as much work. But you know who I bet's got some interesting opinions on all this is our friend Heather McDonald. So everybody please stay tuned.

[Lemonade Pet Insurance Announcer (Alternate)]

If you're the proud parent of a puppy or kitten, you know you can't pet proof your entire life. There simply isn't a sock drawer high enough or a couch cover thick enough. But you can pet proof your wallet with lemonade Pet insurance. Whether it's an unexpected accident or a routine checkup, Lemonade can cover up to 90% of the bill. Plus they can handle claims in as little as two seconds. So before you turn into a complete helicopter pack, pet parent, get a'@lemonade.com pet

[Lemonade Pet Insurance Announcer]

take the exit, turn right into the drive through.

[Heather McDonald]

Nope.

[Mark Geragos]

I'm making dinner tonight.

[Heather McDonald]

You don't have time. Josh has practice.

[Matt Murphy]

Oh, that's right.

[Heather McDonald]

I'll just get a salad and fries.

[Mark Geragos]

No, just the salad.

[Lemonade Pet Insurance Announcer]

But salad cancels Fries.

[Heather McDonald]

Salad only.

[Lemonade Pet Insurance Announcer]

Fries.

[Heather McDonald]

Salad, fries.

[Lemonade Pet Insurance Announcer]

Food noise isn't fair. But Mochi health is the affordable GLP one source that puts you on the road to success. Successful weight loss.

[Heather McDonald]

Hey, can I get the fries?

[Matt Murphy]

Salad?

[Heather McDonald]

Sorry.

[Lemonade Pet Insurance Announcer]

Learn more at. Join Mochi.com Mochi members have access to licensed physicians and nutritionists. Results may vary.

[Mark Geragos]

Welcome back to in the well and when. Welcome Heather McDonald. And let me give you a little bit behind the scenes. When we were taping this, I had actually said, I'm going to call Dick Harplian, who just got the Murdoch case reversed at the South Carolina Supreme Court. And Matt reminded me that we had Heather. And I said, forget Harputlian. I want to hear Heather on Valdoni and Lively and the competing declarations of victory. That floats my boat more. So the nerd lawyer in me wants to get your take on this, Heather, because there's nobody with a better take in the world on celebrity justice than you. So you tell me, and welcome back.

[Heather McDonald]

Well, thank you for having me. I've covered this whole thing from the beginning. And at first I was team Blake. I noticed I'm online a lot, and I noticed that, you know, the movie came out and after it it came out, there were these stories, you know, of how. Why he wasn't on the red carpet and nobody really cared. And then I noticed that there were tiktoks and things of people saying, oh, Blake Lively was rude to them. I was her makeup artist and she didn't invite me over for Easter and, like, these crazy, like, stories. And so then when she came forth and said they did a smear campaign against me. I kind of was like, yeah, I know how that can happen. I know how bots work and how you can have multiple bots fighting with each other to make a story and how you can send stories to bloggers and people to then make it a bigger talking point. But then when I read more about the, you know, the accusation she was saying that he sexually harassed her and things, and. And then people looking at the actual raw footage, I did not believe that. I did not. I did not believe that there was a real thing there. What I think happened was

[Lemonade Pet Insurance Announcer (Alternate)]

she is

[Heather McDonald]

who she is, and she wanted a bigger role in producing the film and everything. But I also think that she, like any mother who's pushing 40 with four kids at home, wanted to have a workplace crush. Okay. And I think she's pretty excited to kiss someone other than her husband. And I thought they did have good chemistry. I thought. I saw the movie. I thought they were kind of hot together. And he.

[Mark Geragos]

Thank God you can say that, because if Matt or I said that, we would be drummed off the air.

[Matt Murphy]

It'd be canceled.

[Mark Geragos]

Yes, exactly.

[Heather McDonald]

And so I think she was kind of. Huh?

[Mark Geragos]

It's true, right?

[Heather McDonald]

Yeah. I think she was kind of flirty with him, and he was not reciprocating. And then I think something happened. This is all by speculation between she and Ryan where either he saw the kind of. Remember that sexy voicemail? I don't know if you remember this part, but there was this voicemail that he sent me to her that was innocuous, but he sounded so sexy on it. And it was like, hey, I just think, you know, the way you fix the script is great. I'm so glad we had this great conversation. And. And I just don't know if he saw the text messages, if he got jealous. And then she, to calm him down and calm his ego down, was like, oh, my God, he. You know, Justin Baldoni is such a creep. He's been hitting on me and this and that. And then Ryan with his own insecurities. That's when Ryan went after him and made a mockery of him in the. What is that thing that he's in? The Deadpool kind of created this, like, obviously the parody character of Deadpool and all that. And then they were into this huge trial. I mean, trial to be, you know, really going against each other. And the lesson to be learned is, just put your phone down.

[Mark Geragos]

Let your wife have the affair. No, there's a couple of lessons that I could learn off of this.

[Heather McDonald]

I mean, the lesson is she. Once they were done with the movie, she should have just shut up about it. And even if there were a couple mean tiktoks about her being a bitch, who cares? Like, you know, but when it's happening to you, and we've all had online things happen, you know, it does seem like the whole world believes this thing that's not true about you. And then you get your husband, who's this powerful Hollywood person, and you get kind of riled up. And somewhere between them and their attorneys, they got riled up and they. They said, let's go for this. And they brought out the first complaint. And I. I think that was just the biggest mistake. I think she should have just. Nobody. Once all this came out, the movie had already come out, was already streaming, it was over with. Now, some people think the whole point is she brought this out because she wanted the sequel of the movie. Maybe she did. Obviously, none of this was worth it. And I think if she could take a time machine, she would have just put her phone down and gone to Cabo and find an, you know, find another great project, come out with something really good, you know, six months later, and nobody would have cared about it. But I think they. Both. Their reputations, both are. Are gonna suffer. And Ryl, all three of them, I don't think. I think Justin Baldoni, some people love him, but I also think we found all this information about him too, that it was kind of like, you are kind of an annoying man. Bun wearing, like, I'm a male feminist. Like, there is some annoying shit about him too, but I don't think he's a sexual harasser, and I don't blame him for defending himself legally.

[Matt Murphy]

Have you seen some of those dailies, Heather, with shows, like in a dance scene? Okay. She may be the world's greatest actress, and I, as you know, I support victims, but she looks so into it. And you're the first person I've heard articulate that theory of all the comments.

[Mark Geragos]

Theory. Have you been talking about this on your show?

[Heather McDonald]

Because I. Yeah, go ahead.

[Mark Geragos]

I was just going to say I haven't heard this yet. It's the first one that really resonates with me that I, That I. That just says, wow, this really makes sense in terms of everything that unfolded.

[Heather McDonald]

Yeah, I mean, the dailies that he put out, you know, really showed that he was not doing anything wrong. You know, she's like, sorry about my spray tan. And he's like, no, it smells good. But written out in the complaint, it looked like, no, you Smell good. Like, let me smell. Let me smell it one more time. It was like he was just trying to be like, don't be insecure about it. You smell good. It's fine. You know, like, it was not that. And then there was this other daily where they're at the hospital, and because he was playing a doctor, and she goes and gives him this kiss that was not in the script. And he's, like, taken aback.

[Lemonade Pet Insurance Announcer]

Hi.

[Heather McDonald]

I'm so sorry.

[Matt Murphy]

Wait, what are you.

[Heather McDonald]

No, I just.

[Mark Geragos]

Is everything okay?

[Heather McDonald]

Yeah, you just. You forgot this.

[Matt Murphy]

Wait, what? No, babe, this isn't mine.

[Heather McDonald]

I know, I know. I.

[Lemonade Pet Insurance Announcer]

I haven't to love you, too.

[Matt Murphy]

All right, cut.

[Heather McDonald]

It was. You know. So that wasn't done with an intimacy coordinator. You know, it was her making a sexual move on hand that was not planned out. So I thought that was really bad. The other thing, as a woman that I thought was kind of funny, now that it's all over with, is they got so upset that he asked her trainer or asked a trainer or somebody, how much does she weigh? Because there's this scene which, by the way, people only do this in movies, okay, where they, like, screw on, like, a countertop. Okay. I don't know. And he picks her up to put her on the countertop to, like, make out with her there when they could just make out standing up, okay? But that is sexy for us to watch at home. So he's like, I don't want to throw up my back, and I just want to, like, prep. Like, is she 128 or she 145? For women, it's really hard to tell. Like, you. Someone could be a size 6 and be 125, and someone could be size 6 and be 1 55. And they both look great. Muscle is how, you know, muscle ways. So I think he was just clearly assy. But a woman with weight, and she just had her fourth baby. And I understand that could have been stressful for her, but that was totally blown out of proportion. Like, he asked. He didn't ask her. He asked somebody else and, like, got back to her. And that just, like, infuriated them. I mean, there were so many, like, crazy things that then, you know, would come out with people, like, oh, and all her weird clothes. I mean, the movie itself, she's supposed to be a girl opening her own flower shop, and she's wearing, like, $2,000 boots under, like, a dress to go pick flowers. I mean, it was just. Nothing made sense. Like, it was just. She just wanted to, like, look Cute or look weird. Her. She was in charge of her clothing. There was a lot of things that were really strange about it. Now, looking back at it, didn't her

[Matt Murphy]

team try to destroy the dailies, too? Wasn't that. Didn't I read that that they actually tried to have Sony get rid of all of the dailies, and then they learned that Baldoni had his own set? Are you familiar with that?

[Heather McDonald]

I don't know that they tried to destroy it, but I did think when I saw the dailies, I was like, well, you're. It's. It's his production company, Wayfarer. So I'm like, why wouldn't you think that we would have that? You know? And then I also thought it was interesting that there was a couple co stars and stuff that really stayed silent, you know, where they. Which I don't blame them for staying silent because you're like, I don't want to, you know, ostracize one whole side of someone that might give me a job later. So we never really knew how Jenny Slate felt, who played his sister. She didn't defend him, you know, but she seemed to stay good with Blake. So you're like, was he a creep on set? But I don't think so. And then, you know, and then the young girl that played her, she was very into her, like, giving her gifts and having her come over and hang out. And I'm like, yeah, I think at that point she was trying to collect her team so that they would be on her side, you know?

[Mark Geragos]

You know, it's so funny about the way you come at this and you give. You actually give the motive, and it makes so much more sense, because when I was looking at it, I was framing it in terms of when she won the motion originally. Not the most recent one where a case was gutted, but the other one where his Baldoni stuff was thrown out. Matt and I had talked and we said, boy, if you're the lawyer at that point, you know that this has been a disaster. You've got a legal win. Just declare victory and get the hell out at that point. And I just. What's your analysis as to why she didn't do that? I mean, wouldn't that have been the time to have kind of just declared victory and getting out of this thing?

[Heather McDonald]

I mean, I guess you'd have to, you know, say is, did the lawyer recommend that? And she was like, no. So what happened? Okay, so. So. So she had a point where she could get out earlier, but didn't. But then why did they decide now to get out? That's fake question.

[Mark Geragos]

I, I, I have a theory on this too. My theory. And you see Matt smiling. It's a very I complicated theory. But when originally Justin's counterclaim, she sues, he counters. Judge Fast Forward throws out the counterclaims. She then has Justin then has the ability to move to dismiss her original complaint. Judge grants 10 of 13 of that basically guts her case in that order. He lays out, in my opinion, all of the missteps by her lawyers makes it, I mean, there's, if I'm the lawyer who's defending her, I, I'm not going to like that order. And on the heels of that, they call up immediately, if you believe what's being reported, they call up Brian Friedman, who's representing Baldoni, and say, we need to get into private mediation immediately. Private mediation immediately. Now you'd say, well, what significance does that have? There's a California Supreme Court case that says if you settle your case at a private mediation, the lawyers cannot get sued for malpractice. And I think that's what was behind it. The lawyers brought in another law firm, they get to private mediation. They have the best mediator on the planet doing the mediation and they get insulated from a malpractice suit. And it was not an insignificant amount of money. If you believe the reports, she spent upwards of 30 or 40 million dollars on legal fees. That's just on legal fees, which is crazy on a case that to your point, we were having the argument the other day. What's worse, Barbra Streisand, Amber Heard, or Blake Lively? I mean, if you're going to rank them, the Streisand effect, I think now is the Lively effect.

[Heather McDonald]

Can you remind us again and what the Streisand Effect is? It was that somebody accused her of something and can you say it?

[Mark Geragos]

Yeah, they wanted to fight her on some property thing that she, a deal she had in Malibu. She ended up suing. And it took because she didn't like what was being said and it took on a life of its own and really kind of became a by comparison lively. It was nothing, but it amplified it exponentially and became known as the Streisand Effect. For years. I would tell clients when they come in and want to sue, I'd say this is the dumbest thing in the world. Just put your head down for 96 hours. Somebody else is going to do something more stupid and they'll forget about you. But no, if you've got a big firm and you've got to generate billings. You'll take the client, you'll tell the client, you'll whip them up. It's kind of the family law RICO action where the lawyers in family law heat up both sides, they take all the liquidity out of the, the community, and then when everybody has no more money to pay, then they tell you to settle on the same terms that you could have settled on in the first place.

[Heather McDonald]

Yeah, I mean, I just think they, that they got with lawyers who did rile them up or representation or whatever. Because again, yeah, like, so what that some people said you were a bitch or difficult to work with. You've been on a bunch of things, like, just be a delight on the next show and they'll forget about it, you know, like, I, I don't know. Yeah, I agree with you. Like, of course, it's, it's, let's rile them up. Let's make a bigger deal out of it. And especially now, I mean, things are over in not even 96 hours, like 48 hours. But certainly in their case, you wouldn't even have to go away for six months. Just go away for like three weeks. Like, just go on a vacation, put your phone away, don't look at it.

[Mark Geragos]

And it's really a master. The guy who has, he, Whether you love him or hate him, Donald Trump understands that in a way that nobody understands. He doesn't. Whatever he does, he knows all he's got to do is troll something else or create another controversy. And the last one is already yesterday's news in a matter of minutes. And it's, it's. He has, he has exhibit A of crisis management, because all you got to do is just wait it out. And to your point, then, now it's at a point where it's, it's. I'm probably old school by saying 96 hours, right?

[Heather McDonald]

Yeah, Yep.

[Matt Murphy]

But, you know, Mark and I have been, we've been scratching our heads. From a purely legal analysis, Heather, we've been trying to figure out, like, what in God's name are they thinking? Because there's so many off ramps she could have taken. And that's why your comments are so interesting right now, at least for me, because that, that sort of interpersonal relationship thing where emotions are involved, and all of a sudden now you're making really bad strategic decisions, which is basically the job of a good lawyer to get their clients out of that headspace and try to see things objectively. I mean, that's why we bring lawyers in when we're emotional and we're not thinking right to make those strategic decisions for, for us. I mean, that's why Mark makes the big bucks. But another thing Mark and I were kind of laughing about, maybe laughing is not the right word. I was laughing. When you get into these text messages and you see these famous glamorous people, it is fascinating to me how small they really are, how petty and just 8th grade dumb they really come off. And my thought is somebody finally got to her and said, you're getting killed in. Read the comments section. You were getting killed in this. It only gets worse from here. Your husband is starting to suffer. His reputation is starting to take a hit and as well everybody that signed up with them, even Taylor Swift was getting some grief for a little while on this. So I don't know, I don't know what happened behind the scenes. But yeah, I think it was, I think it was a smart move to dump it.

[Heather McDonald]

Definitely before it was dumped too. I was like, God, I don't even know how she's going to get out of this. Except if she and Ryan were to break up and then, and who knows, hopefully they'll stay together till they're 100 and die. But if they do ever break up, I'm sure in her memoir or whatever she will put the blame on him like that he was jealous or that he wanted her to do that or vice versa or he will put the blame on her, you know, something. But it looks like they're together. You know, she went to the Met Ball and looked beautiful and then they like posted some fun photos and I mean, I don't think if they continue to Deadpool, I don't think a 15 year old boy cares or knows what is going on. If they do another Deadpool, those kids will go see it. And even with her, if she's in something juicy, you know, like, you know, some Nicole Kidman movie about killing your husband and you're rich and you live by the sea. Everyone will watch it. She just has to be in something good again that she's. And she, I do think she can be a good actress. There's some, there's this one viral video of her from the town which you know was like 15 years ago but her Boston accent is so bad and she's supposed to be playing a drug addict and it's like everyone has clipped it and it's gone wild. She's like, you're the crime stopper. Why don't you go figure it out? Like it's so bad.

[Mark Geragos]

What happened.

[Heather McDonald]

You're a crime stopper. Figure it the fuck out.

[Matt Murphy]

But I think she's trying to bang Jon Hamm in that scene. Yeah, remember that at the bar, she's like hitting on Jon Hamm, the FBI agent. And she looked pretty good, I'll say that.

[Heather McDonald]

I remember that from the time she looked good. There's rumors that she had an affair with Ben Affleck during that time when he was with Jennifer Garner. And she was kind of miscast in that, you know, like her look and everything and her age. But I do think she can be a good actress when she's put in a part that's believable for her. And so she will get some like limited Netflix series about, based on some book about three women that plot to kill each other's husbands or something in Morro Bay. And it'll be a hit and we, and I will watch it. Wow.

[Mark Geragos]

Heather, I view in a matter that you are so persuasive. If you had asked me before I heard that, I would have said she's not coming back from this. I now convinced you in a matter of 90 seconds. You persuaded me.

[Matt Murphy]

I was thinking the exact same thing.

[Mark Geragos]

Right.

[Matt Murphy]

I thought she was done. She's done great, mean girl, but you just persuaded me to. You're right. A little bit of time is going to go by, other things are going to happen. There's going to be another scandal and then she's going to pop up in a Netflix series because she's a, she's a familiar face. And people go, yeah, what was that whole thing with that Justin guy and everybody beyond to the next thing.

[Mark Geragos]

Hey, Heather, this works. You may have a second career in crisis management. So, you know, keep that in mind.

[Matt Murphy]

Or celebrity therapist. Heather McDonald, celebrity therapist and slash publicist.

[Heather McDonald]

I mean, I'll do it all for free. I do fancy myself as a Real Housewives consultant. I'd like to help those women, you know, get a little business going, handle things, make the most out of this short lived career. But yeah, the crisis management could be fun too. So let me know if you ever need some help, Mark, like when someone comes in your office, I may have

[Mark Geragos]

you drive down in the office again and counsel some people. I love it. Thank you, Heather. Where can we find you next?

[Heather McDonald]

So my podcast, well, my podcast is every Tuesday and Thursday, which is Juicy Scoop, which is funny in pop culture. Every Wednesday is Juicy Crimes. And my next one next Wednesday will have this darling boy named Matt Murphy. He is my guest. We already recorded it. And we get into topics about when the parent is found responsible for their teenage criminal child, which I think is a very interesting topic that we're seeing a lot of. So that's it. So check me out. Thank you. Thanks so much, you guys.

[Mark Geragos]

Thanks, Heather. Next up, an old tale from inside the well. I don't know that there are really old tales from inside the well because you if you go into the well, you could be shot. Or Matt will tell you how you could. The sword will come at you. But stay tuned and we'll talk about it.

[Heather McDonald]

A vacation rental should come with support, not surprises. That's why VRBO comes with a VRBoCare guarantee and 24. 7 life support from Real people.

[Matt Murphy]

So if something goes sideways, Verbocare can help.

[Heather McDonald]

If the host cancels Verbocare. If the listing says heated pool, but there's actually no pool to heat, Definitely a Verbocare thing. If my teenager starts calling me Leslie

[Matt Murphy]

instead of of mom, that's a family thing, Leslie.

[Heather McDonald]

That makes sense. Sorry. Book with support, not surprises. Verbo care and 24. 7 life support.

[Matt Murphy]

If you know you verbo terms apply. See vrbo.com trust for details.

[Lemonade Pet Insurance Announcer (Alternate)]

If you're the proud parent of a puppy or kitten, you know you can't pet proof your entire life. There simply isn't a sock drawer high enough or a couch cover thick enough. But you can pet proof your wallet with Lemonade Pet Insurance. Whether it's an unexpected, unexpected accident or a routine checkup, Lemonade can cover up to 90% of the bill. Plus they can handle claims in as little as two seconds. So before you turn into a complete helicopter pet parent, get a'@lemonade.com Peter,

[Matt Murphy]

welcome back to in the well, it's time to unearth a story from our past. Mark, why don't you take it away?

[Mark Geragos]

Okay. I don't know that we're going to tell a story from the past because there's a really fun story, I should say. Fun. The people involved don't think it's fun. But you'll remember, Matt, the Eric Swalwell story, where basically his gubernatorial hopes just imploded and his Swalwell then had his lawyer go on to CNN and his lawyer talked about it was a performance that less than what you would program. I guess it turned out that it wasn't really his lawyer, but it was a lawyer that one of his benefactors, a guy by the name of Klubach who was a former gubernatorial nominee himself who had pulled out and had provided for him. And Swalwell was apparently, if you believe the Reports living with this guy Klobach in his mansion, and Kloback kicked him out. And somebody stuck a microphone in Klobach's face and said, what happened with you in Swalwell? And he famously said he busted the trust. You ever heard the term bust the trust? And so, mind you, I may have lifted that expression and used it on people. I know you busted the trust. Anyway, he got busted himself. You see this Matt with no Kubak was arrested apparently yesterday, day before yesterday this week. And for a case where he is accused, mind you, he's presumed innocent, but he was accused of intimidating a witness involving his fiance who was already being prosecuted by Nathan hockman in the DA's office. So it turns out fun facts because LA is such a small place that the lawyer that he had for Swalwell was a young lawyer who is at a firm, Patty Glazer's firm in Century City. You know, Patty Glaser, I'm sure Patty's one of the great lawyers in. In Southern California. Well, so that was one of Kloback's lawyers. So Kloback, then in the paperwork or the news that's being reported yesterday, guess who Kloback's lawyer also is on the criminal case? None other than David Hockman. And do you know who David Hockman is? The brother of the da, Nate Hockman. And so then there's reports out there that, wait a second, how is David Hockman going to represent Klobach when Nathan Hockman is prosecuted, presumably going to make the charging decision and is already quoted in the case against his Klobax fiance? It's been quite a little story, at least it was in la, but it's now gone kind of national as we're taping this. And that's. Have you ever had. Because I'm old enough to remember the Avazian brothers, who, when one of them was a line deputy, the other was in defense, and they actually tried a case against each other. You ever had that experience? And this bachelor actually goes into in the. Well, because one of the homicide detectives I had a case with, Enquist in L. A was also had a brother in Orange county who was a Marty. Marty, who you and I appeared in front of.

[Matt Murphy]

Marty was great cases. Also. Also retired cop.

[Mark Geragos]

Yeah, exactly.

[Matt Murphy]

Yeah. You know, it's. I think that would be a wavable conflict, I think. Right. Like the. Like. So the defendant could waive the conflict between his lawyer and the DA and I guess all they would have to worry about would be an appearance of impropriety. Right.

[Mark Geragos]

I think the problem is, you know, we've got a Code, Section 1424 in the Penal code in California. As you know, you've been on the receiving end, I've been on the giving end on many an occasion. And I don't know that you could waive the conflict unless you waived your right to recuse the, the DA at the same time. I think that's where the ethical conundrum would be. But it's a fascinating kind of scandal tinged three degrees of separation LA story.

[Matt Murphy]

Yeah, you talk about a fall from grace. That, that Swalwell case is something else. You know, I, you know, working in Orange county, you see sort of the other side. You see the, the really staunch Republican side in la. You've got those Democratic politics. And that's one of the things that I really like about what we do, Mark, especially the true crime stuff is it really kind of transcends the nastiness. It's a bunch of people on both sides of the aisle and you've got good and bad and like. I have no idea what Blake Lively's politics are, but it's fun to talk about with Heather McDonald. I have no idea that Heather McDonald's politics are either. But it rises above all that nonsense. It's human relationships in its most basic way that I think in a weird, probably way too optimistic sort of way. I think that the true crime world that we're kind of a part of now is a place maybe it's going to sound like an overdone word, but maybe there can be a little bit of national healing there. Because I think people that have different political views can come together and agree. You get a bad guy and a good guy a lot of times in these cases. And yeah, it's kind of, it's one of the things I really enjoy about it.

[Mark Geragos]

I couldn't agree more. It's one of the reasons I used to get frustrated in the 90s because it became kind of political. It was the law and order was a province of the Republicans, soft on crime Democrats. I know that there's a lot who would argue where the 90s are back again now. But I think you're right. At a certain level, true crime does transcend that.

[Matt Murphy]

Well, Judge Greg Jones, who's one of the best judges I've ever appeared in front of Orange county, former public defender, just a great dude. He had a saying. He said prosecutorial power and politics are always a toxic cocktail. And it's so beautifully put. And he's exactly right. I couldn't agree more. All right, so thanks to our guest, Heather McDonald and thanks to you for tuning in for in the. Well, remember, new episodes drop every Friday. This is a lot of fun for Mark and I. The show is doing very well, so

[Mark Geragos]

I would say thank you. Thanks to the audience. I don't think anybody expected it to do as well as it's doing. Thank you. No, least of all Matt and I.

[Matt Murphy]

So it's, it's been off the charts so far. So thank you so much for your support. As long as you guys watch, they're going to keep letting Mark and I do this and it's fun for us because these would be the conversations we would be having about these cases. Anyway. So anyway.

[Mark Geragos]

Exactly.

[Matt Murphy]

Yeah, it's awesome to have everybody listening in and you get to be a fly on the wall. And also you can find me Matt, Matt Murphy Law on Instagram and you can follow us both on social media and hopefully keep tuning in

[Mark Geragos]

someday. You actually get on social media. I don't think you really are, Matt. You're kind of the one of those reclusive, I don't do social media types. Right.

[Matt Murphy]

My toe is in the water. I'm dipping it in the pond, so to speak. So I'm getting better. And I have times, Mark, where I've turned into a 13 year old girl. I'll have like, I'll have like three weeks in a row where I'm so into Instagram that it's actually distracting me from all the work I have to do. And then you're right, I need to get way better. I just do it all myself. So I probably need to get somebody to help me with it.

[Mark Geragos]

Thanks, Matt. Good to see you. Next week.

[Matt Murphy]

Yep. Can't wait.

[Lemonade Pet Insurance Announcer (Alternate)]

Breathe in. Feel the sense of calm that comes from having up to $300 in overdraft protection with Goto Bank. Now. Did you say $300? Yes. Now back to our breathing.

[Heather McDonald]

So if I overspend my balance, go2bank has my back up to $300.

[Lemonade Pet Insurance Announcer (Alternate)]

Yes. Can we breathe out now? Less worries, more zen. With over $300 in overdraft protection, tap to open an account today. Eligible direct deposits and opt in required for overdraft protection fees. Terms and conditions apply.