Tyler Robinson Request Granted, Teacher Shot by Child Sues, Bizarre Texts in Kada Scott Case

Summary

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MK True Crime: "Tyler Robinson Request Granted, Teacher Shot by Child Sues, Bizarre Texts in Kada Scott Case"

Podcast: MK True Crime | Host: Mark Garrigus (MK Media)
Date: October 29, 2025
Featured Guests: Matt Murphy (former homicide prosecutor, author), Phil Holloway (criminal attorney & former police officer)

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Episode Overview

This episode dives into three headline-grabbing true crime cases with complex legal and societal implications:

• Tyler Robinson and Courtroom Attire – A legal and procedural debate over the accused’s right to wear civilian clothes during pretrial proceedings in a high-profile shooting case.
• Abby Zwerner v. School District – The ongoing civil trial of a teacher shot by a 6-year-old student, raising massive questions about liability, school safety, and warning signs.
• The Kada Scott Case – Updates on the murder investigation of a Pennsylvania grad student, including stunning decisions by Philadelphia prosecutors and the role of bizarre text messages and prior abuse allegations.

Legal experts dissect each case, exploring judicial decisions, prosecutorial responsibility, and the often-tenuous balance between legal principles and public outrage.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Tyler Robinson Case: Right to Civilian Clothes in Court (01:04–13:33)

Summary:

• Background: Tyler Robinson, accused of shooting Charlie Kirk, was recently granted the right to wear civilian clothes, not jail garb, for all pretrial hearings and trial.
• Legal Principle: The presumption of innocence, and how defendant presentation affects jury impartiality, especially in televised, high-profile cases.
• Debate: Whether prosecutorial resistance to the clothing request was warranted, and the broader implications for appeals.

Key Insights:

• Phil Holloway (02:34):
  “You can’t present [the accused] to a jury in jail clothes… they are supposed to look just like everybody else… The idea is to take this appellate issue off the table before it even begins.”
• Matt Murphy (05:51):
  “Everything that Phil just said is exactly right… The presumption of innocence is real. It’s critically important… The judge made the right call.”
• Mark Garrigus (06:58):
  Shared a story about defense attorneys choosing jail clothes to elicit jury sympathy—though not applicable in a polarizing case like Robinson’s.
• Judicial Quote (08:33):
  “Mr. Robinson’s right to the presumption of innocence outweighs the minimal inconvenience of permitting civilian attire… request to appear in civilian clothing for all pretrial proceedings is granted.”
• Matt Murphy (10:41):
  “You don’t want to die on this hill as a prosecutor. Like this is an easy, easy gimme. Let them have it. Who cares?”

Memorable Moment:

• Discussion of Utah’s firing squad as a method of execution, and speculation as to why federal authorities haven’t intervened.
  • Mark Garrigus (12:57): “The amazing thing about Utah is that it’s a firing squad… my theory is that the feds have made the calculation that the firing squad in Utah, justice would be a lot quicker than if they were to get in there and muck it up.”

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2. Teacher Shot by a 6-Year-Old Student – Lawsuit & School Negligence (15:14–27:33)

Summary:

• Background: Abby Zwerner, shot by a first grader, is suing the school district for over $40 million, alleging gross negligence by school administrators who ignored repeated warning signs and failed to search the child.
• Trial Status: Jury selection and opening statements have occurred; emotional testimony and administrative failures highlighted.

Key Insights & Timeline:

• Phil Holloway (15:25): “Employers owe their employees some reasonable duty of care… in this case, these people, particularly this one school administrator, was put on notice multiple times and ignored very, very clear warnings… the teacher was shot… and now she’s filed this lawsuit, rightfully so I think.”
• Emotional Testimony:
  • SOT: Abby Zwerner (18:10):
    • “‘I remember him pointing the gun at me… it was a pretty scary day. My initial reaction was, your kids need to get out of here. This is not a safe classroom anymore.’”
• Matt Murphy (18:59): “This is one that just gets your blood boiling, doesn’t it?... This is so bad, right?... There’s plenty of gross negligence to go around between the mom and between the school.”
• Phil Holloway’s Red Flags Timeline (22:37):
  • 9:20am – Aggressive, threatening behavior ignored by administrator.
  • 12:00pm – Two students report the boy has a gun/ammo; administrator again refuses action.
  • 12:30pm – Suspicious behavior re: child's pockets; again, refused to search.
  • 1:40pm – Student shows gun/bullets to a friend; administrator delays search.
  • 1:58pm – Teacher is shot.
• Mark Garrigus (25:14):
  “Trials are basically to determine who’s the asshole. And in this case, I think Ebony Parker or Ebony Parker’s lawyer so far is winning that contest.”

Notable Quotes:

• Matt Murphy (22:21): “What kind of mom would leave a loaded gun without a safety on it in her purse? ...I think this jury’s going to come in with a big dollar amount on this.”
• Phil Holloway (25:02): “They did nothing and then she got shot. I can’t understand the strategy.”

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3. The Kada Scott Murder: Prior Charges, Progressive Prosecution, Bizarre Texts (30:13–44:42)

Summary:

• Background: Kada Scott, a 23-year-old Penn State grad, murdered after leaving work. The accused (Keon King) had prior kidnapping and assault allegations dismissed after the victim wouldn’t cooperate, reportedly out of fear. Those charges are now reinstated.
• Key Evidence: Odd text messages (“kidnap me again”), cell phone evidence, and evidence suggesting role-play scenarios in a dangerous relationship context.

Key Insights:

• Matt Murphy (33:17): “Larry Krasner is… just one of a number of these so-called progressive DAs… when you have people that pose a real danger, that kind of progressive philosophy breaks down. And it broke down in this case.”
• Discussion on Text Messages:
  • Phil Holloway (32:56):
    “There’s some very strange text messages… ‘kidnap me again’… Does it signal a relationship dynamic or is it more sinister?”
  • Matt Murphy (35:49):
    “Whenever you have text messages in a case… the killer got a hold of the phone and had a whole series of text messages he was putting in for the victims.”
    “Always have a skeptical eye on those text messages… evidence can often, for guilt or innocence, our first impression can often be wrong.”
  • Phil Holloway (38:20): “Keon King has some kind of… kidnapping and strangulation fetish… she (prior girlfriend) was lucky to be alive.”
  • Mark Garrigus (43:04): “If you’re him, the defense lawyer… try to interview the newly refiled, complaining witness… see if she admits this was a role play. …Everybody’s got their own sexual peccadilloes…”
  • Matt Murphy (44:04): “Although I doubt she [Kada Scott] shot herself in the head. I agree with you, though.”

Prosecutorial Blame & Policy Anger:

• Matt Murphy (40:40):
  “It is mind boggling to me… so predictable that this guy was dangerous… whoever made that call ought to resign and go into some other form of law.”
• Political Fallout:
  Discussion of DA Krasner’s reelection and prior California DA Gascon’s electoral defeat as a reaction against “revolving door” policies with dangerous unintended consequences.

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4. Mailbag: Missing Child and School Liability (50:22–54:25)

• Listener “Autumn” asks about liability when a child is enrolled in homeschool.
  • Matt Murphy (51:37):
    “This might be a custody dispute… But I’d love to get Mark’s thoughts on this. This one could be one with a happy ending.”
  • Mark Garrigus (52:47):
    “It’s a pretty heavy lift to fix liability onto the school district when you’re homeschooling because the parents… generally have primary responsibility and dominion and control over their kids.”

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Memorable Quotes & Lively Moments

• “The judge said, ‘it’s really no inconvenience at all… this is a win for the state, because that’s less that they're going to have to defend against on appeal’”
  – Phil Holloway (09:57)
• “My favorite is the little pockets.”
  – Mark Garrigus, in disbelief (24:11), referencing the administrator’s refusal to search the child’s pockets.
• “Plaintiff’s lawyer… if that lawyer has any game, you could get a jury so frothy over this… big payday coming for somebody on this one.”
  – Matt Murphy (26:45)
• “Let me tell you guys, this one… gets me twitchy. It just makes you so angry. It’s like, put me in the game.”
  – Matt Murphy, on the school shooting case (26:34)
• “If you’re so convinced that somebody’s guilty, then why not let the system play out? What are you afraid of?”
  – Mark Garrigus, on presumption of innocence (11:35)

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Closing Arguments (54:25–64:41)

• Phil Holloway:
  Expressed gratitude to federal air traffic controllers working without pay, facilitating his ability to travel to a family funeral during a government shutdown.
• Matt Murphy:
  Ranted about the new wave of “officer created jeopardy” prosecutions, where police officers are retroactively criminally charged for split-second decisions, calling it “absolute madness” and warning it threatens law enforcement morale and public safety.
• Mark Garrigus:
  Defended the role of lawyers, including those representing unpopular or high-profile defendants, as essential to justice.
  “Lawyers are supposed to be there to advocate for the client, to be the voice for the client and to test the government… for those who throw verbal rocks or bricks at lawyers… remember… think about all the other wrongful convictions…”

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Timestamps for Important Segments

| Segment | Timestamps | |-------------------------------------------|--------------| | Tyler Robinson & Court Attire | 01:04–13:33 | | Abby Zwerner Lawsuit, Teacher Shot Case | 15:14–27:33 | | Kada Scott Update, Progressive DA Debate | 30:13–44:42 | | Listener Mailbag: School Liability | 50:22–54:25 | | Closing Arguments / Final Rants | 54:25–64:41 |

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Tone:
Candid, unapologetically opinionated, blending legal expertise with wry humor and passionate critique.

Summary Utility:
This episode is essential listening for true crime news followers, civil liberties watchers, or anyone curious about the real-world messiness of the criminal justice system—from the conduct of trials in the age of livestreams, to the delicate process of assigning blame after preventable tragedy, to the dangers and difficulties of “progressive” criminal justice reform.

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Transcript

[Phil Holloway]

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[Matt Murphy]

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[Phil Holloway]

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[Matt Murphy]

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[Phil Holloway]

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[Mark Garrigus]

Hi, I'm Mark Garrigus and welcome to MK True Crime. I'm joined today by two of my favorite contributors. One is Matt Murphy. Matt, where are you? You can if they put you up there. Matt and I in our day jobs have known each other for many years. And one of my more recent friends is Phil Holloway who has risen to fame and stardom based on a lot of the Georgia, recent Georgia prosecutions. And today we're going to talk about a couple of cases that I think are fairly intriguing. One is the alleged Charlie Kirk shooter, Tyler Robinson, who was handed a win yesterday. And we're going to jump right in and see how that could affect his upcoming trial. And then there's a trial that's going on right now where a teacher was shot by a six year old kindergarten student and now she's suing for over 40 million bucks. Trial started this week and we're going to bring you all of the latest. And we're joined today by the, as I mentioned, the aforementioned true crime contributors, Matt Murphy, former homicide prosecutor, author of the book of murder, and Phil Holloway, the criminal lawyer and former police officer. And he'll start with Tyler Robinson. Phil, you want to fill us in, pun intended on Tyler Robinson.

[Phil Holloway]

Well, thank, thank you, Mark. Thanks for the kind words. Always happy to be here with my friends. Look, all right. So you know we have this thing in our constitution in the United States. It's called the presumption of innocence. Right? And so regardless of how overwhelming the evidence might be against someone, they are entitled to their day in court, right? They are entitled to a trial, they're entitled to a lawyer, they're entitled to due process and all of those things. And chief among them is the right to make the state prove their innocent, prove their guilt, excuse me, beyond a reasonable doubt. And so the idea is that if you have a defendant who is legally innocent, presumably innocent under the law, then you can't present them to a jury in jail clothes. In other words, when they're sitting, sitting in the courtroom, they are supposed to look just like everybody else, more or less, at least in terms of their clothing. But what about pretrial matters? Right? When someone is in has a court case, it's not just about the trial. There's all sorts of things that happen pretrial. And then when you have a high profile case, everybody and their brother is watching the pre trial matters. It's all livestreamed around the world. We'll be talking about it like we are here on MK True Crime and we're going to be seeing the accused person. So somewhere in Utah there is going to be a jury picked of 12 people who are going to decide his fate. Those people will likely see him on some of these live streams. They will see him in these pretrial hearings. So he wanted to make sure that in order not to sway the jurors in advance that he be allowed to be seen in, in street clothes, in plain clothes, not the jail garb that we always see day in and day out. When those of us who practice law, every day we see inmates in these courtrooms and they're in their orange jumpsuits and the leg irons and things like that. But this case being high profile, the idea is to take this appellate issue off the table before it even begins. In other words, when there's a conviction and there's an appeal, we don't want to be have to defend. We as the prosecutor wouldn't want to have to defend against the argument that the jury was spoiled, if you will, and tainted by images of the defendant in his jail garb and in chains. And that is the not so short of it, but that's the long of it and that's what the judge ruled is going to happen. He's going to be in plain clothes, civilian clothes for purposes of all of his pretrial appearances and trial.

[Mark Garrigus]

So you know what's interesting, Matt Murphy, I'll give you this Phil gives a very good explanation. You take it off the table. But frankly, if you didn't allow cameras in the courtroom pre trial, you wouldn't have the issue other than you'd have people doing sketch artists. And I remember, I can't tell you the number of people over the summer who were asking me if Diddy's clothing was the latest YI line of clothing, or Sean John or whether it was jail garb because it was in a color that was not your Norma. What do you. What say you as the prosecutor on this?

[Matt Murphy]

Remember that scene in Old School with Will Ferrell when he did the debate against Clinton's campaign advisor? Remember that? And he listens to what he says and he goes, that answer was perfect. I agree with everything he just said. And that was the end of the debate. Everything that Phil just said is exactly right. Right. And that's, I think, a really interesting observation, Mark, because you're right. Like, we're in this new era, I think, pretty much post OJ where cameras in the courtroom can make a huge difference. And yeah, Phil's exactly right. The presumption of innocence is real. It's critically important. Doesn't matter how overwhelming or underwhelming the evidence is. And the judge made the right call on this. I think this is such an emotional case for very good reason for so many people that there's almost this visceral reaction when anything goes this guy's way. I think everybody. This is a marathon, not a sprint. Everybody has to let the process play out. And yeah, it's important. I mean, and Mark, you and I have done a million cases with cameras in the courtroom, and this seems very normal to me. The judge would go, yeah, sure, street clothes, who cares?

[Mark Garrigus]

It really doesn't matter. It's so funny you say that, because when I read it, I said when it would be a. The surprise would be as if he wasn't allowed to wear the street clothes. Although I will tell you, it has crossed my mind on occasion. And I will not dime out who told me this once. But I asked a practitioner older than me, so older than the hills, one time why he kept his client in. In jail garb. And he said in that particular case, he wanted the jury to want to help his client. And so it was calculated. He wanted the jury to know this guy is in custody. He wanted to make the argument you're the ones who can set him free. So, by the way, that was not somebody who was as polarizing as Tyler Robinson is. Although I think, you know, I think people underestimate what the defense has to work with here in this case. I, I, you see, completely rational, non tinfoil hat wearing people who have said, I don't buy for a second these text messages. I don't know if you guys have had that reaction, but in my world I've had, I can't tell you, countless people telling me, I'm not buying this, that these text messages are, it just seems to set up, it seems too planted or too scripted, if you will.

[Phil Holloway]

Well, you know, speaking of the judge, guys, we have some sound if we could maybe roll SOT1, Mark, if you don't mind, because the judge said some things in court that I think are worth talking about if we could have site one.

[Matt Murphy]

Mr. Robinson's right to the presumption of innocence outweighs the minimal inconvenience of permitting civilian attire. And Mr. Robinson shall be dressed as one who is presumed innocent. Accordingly, the defendant's request to appear in civilian clothing for all pretrial proceedings is granted.

[Phil Holloway]

You know, Mark, you were talking about people don't believe the text messages. I have people telling me that they can't believe the judge is essentially they're saying the judge is pandering to this murderer. Well, be that as it maybe he is a murderer. Maybe we've seen what we've seen setting that issue to the side. The judge said that it's a, it's really no inconvenience at all. It's a small matter and it's going to become part of the appeal. In other words, if he's convicted, let's say he gets the death penalty. The appeals are going to go on for a long time. At least one thing is now off the table. The defense will not be able to say that it was error for potential jurors to see this defendant in jail garb prior to the trial to the extent they may have watched pretrial coverage. So to me it's a very simple thing. It's not really a win for Tyler Robinson. In fact, it's a win for the state because that's less that they're going to have to defend against on appeal. And frankly, I'm a little bit perplexed that the prosecution did not consent to this. I'm surprised it was even litigated.

[Mark Garrigus]

Well, I've tried cases in Utah and I will tell you, most of the judges I've appeared in front of in Utah are very thoughtful and they adhere to a fundamental pillar that I think a lot of people forget. You know, people say this murder, why Is he pandering? As you said, Phil, you hear a lot of that. By the way, he's presumed innocent. If you've convicted him already, you can call him a murder. If you want to say that somebody is already guilty and why are you giving him that rights then yeah, then you're not presuming innocence. So it's a. To your point, it's a fairly easy call, I think. And to Matt's point, I can't imagine that it's a win. Right Matt?

[Matt Murphy]

Oh, I totally agree. And you know the Utah's Ninth Circuit, right Mark?

[Mark Garrigus]

10.

[Matt Murphy]

Okay. So. So Mark and I have done a lot of capital case litigation with the ninth circuit. And I mean the name of the game for the, for the viewer when you're doing death penalty cases and they're seeking death is of. Is exactly what Phil just said. It's about avoiding appellate issues, especially something like this. You don't want to die on this hill as a prosecutor. Like this is an easy, this is an easy, easy gimme. Let them have it. Who cares? You know, you want, you want those close calls, you want the issues to be ones that matter and that's way down the line. That's when you get into 402s we'd call it in California, right Mark? The pre trial rulings that the court is going to have to make, that's where you gotta, you gotta, that's where you fight your fight. You do not, you don't waste your ammo on, on stupid stuff like this.

[Mark Garrigus]

I couldn't agree more. The judge, so far this judge has been, I know a lot of people are, have. He's come in for some criticism I think unfounded that. Why? Because he's affording the person who is the accused the presumption of innocence. You know, that's what you're supposed to do. That's what our system is. You know, I don't need to get on a soapbox but as Matt will tell you, the last thing you want to do is to cut corners something especially if you're so convinced that somebody's guilty, then why not let the system play out? What are you afraid of?

[Matt Murphy]

And let's not forget this is a death penalty case like a real one. This isn't California where it's symbolic or some other states that have it but aren't going to impose it. This is Utah. This could actually happen. So this is one of those things that for people that are totally pro Charlie Kirk, which I think all of us are in this respect, right. Like the, this is a. You want the process to be fair because this young man really could be executed as a result of this. I've got my personal feelings on that. I've done a lot of death penalty cases as has Mark. Probably not a big mystery where I fall on no it's.

[Mark Garrigus]

We don't need a cry on with the breaking news but.

[Matt Murphy]

Right.

[Mark Garrigus]

But I will say one of the things that I just find, you know the, the amazing thing about Utah is that it's a firing squad. Also my theory is that the reason the feds have not jumped in like they did on Luigi Mangione in New York is that in New York I think they were worried that there was not going to be a death penalty. With Mangione here, I think that the feds have made the calculation that this the firing squad in Utah justice would be a lot quicker than if they were to get in there and muck it up.

[Matt Murphy]

I think you're exactly right.

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[Mark Garrigus]

I need police and an ambulance immediately.

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[Phil Holloway]

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[Phil Holloway]

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[Phil Holloway]

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[Mark Garrigus]

What? You know, I was going to ask you, have you followed this teacher case in the the suing of the school and the principal? Have you followed this closely?

[Phil Holloway]

I Have, we're speaking of the Abby Zwerner case. Abby Zwerner being the teacher that was shot. I'm a big, I'm a big gun safety guy. And so you know, when I hear that this six year old was in school for several hours before he shot his teacher and, and there were multiple warnings, red flags that should have been heeded by the administration that went unheeded. Then of course, Abby Zwerner gets shot a little after noon by this 6 year old student of hers. It just, you know, it makes my skin crawl because you know, one thing that employers owe to their employees is some reasonable duty of care. You've got to want, you got to protect your employees and others that might be on your property from known hazards. And in this case, these people, particularly this one school administrator, which we'll talk about, was put on notice multiple times and ignored very, very clear warnings, choosing to do nothing, not following school policy. And of course the result being that the teacher was killed. And now she's filed this lawsuit and jury selection was happened, they've had opening statements and the trial is now underway where she's suing, rightfully so I think for millions and millions of dollars. Fortunately, she did survive. She was not fatally wounded, but there's still a bullet in her chest. Okay. And so she's going to, she's going to win this lawsuit.

[Mark Garrigus]

Six surgeries later and if you, I mean I read the summaries of the transcripts and if you believe what's happening there at all, the, some of the kind of red flags that you had. I think there was one comment that stuck out to me. Oh, don't worry about it. He's got little pockets or something along those lines, kind of, I don't know, I mean I, I suppose you could be, you hear six years old and you say to yourself, well what could a six year old do? Or what six year old could be packing heat or, or have a gun. But there apparently, if you, if you're following the evidence in this case, it that there is quite a bit that they could have done. And remember it's a civil case, not criminal case. I mean somebody like Murphy, can you imagine what Murphy would do with the parents of this kid in a criminal case?

[Phil Holloway]

Well, I know what Murphy would do and I want to hear about it. But if you don't mind, Mark, we have some sound site 3 actually is Abby Zwerner talking about that moment.

[Commercial Announcer]

I remember him pointing the gun at me. I remember the look on his face. I remember the gun going Off.

[Phil Holloway]

I remember feeling something. It was a pretty scary day. In that moment.

[Commercial Announcer]

What's going through your mind?

[Mark Garrigus]

I was terrified.

[Commercial Announcer]

In that moment. My initial reaction was, your kids need to get out of here. You know, this is not a safe classroom anymore. And then you need to go find help for yourself.

[Phil Holloway]

You guys would put her up and have her testify in a very similar way. I know you would.

[Mark Garrigus]

I want to hear what Murphy would do with the parents of this kid.

[Matt Murphy]

Oh, gosh. It just. This is one that just gets your blood boiling, doesn't it? And this is. This is one of those plaintiffs cases that I think we. We all kind of dream about. I'm really surprised this didn't settle out, guys. I don't. I don't know what happened behind the scenes, but this is so bad, right? And I'm going to say a term here that is going to make me sound way smarter than I am for a second. We all remember Race Ipsiloquiter from law school, right? Which for the viewer, that's Latin for essentially the thing, therefore it is. And that's like if a piano falls on somebody's head, somebody screwed up. There's some sort of gross negligence somewhere on the line. And we remember those exams in law school. Is it there a manufacturer of the rope that broke? Is it the moving company? Is it the people that didn't block the sidewalk? This is one of those. And I think it sounds like there's plenty of gross negligence to go around between the mom and between the school. And I don't know what they were thinking. And the case that this reminds me of, guys, is that Ethan Crumbley case. Remember that one where the kid, he's older, his parents bought him a gun. He's a disturbed kid. He goes in and he's drawing these crazy pictures about shooting kids in math class. And one of the teachers, like, goes, this doesn't look right. Takes it into the administrator. They bring the parents in who are like, nothing to see here. Refused to take him home. They knew that. They bought him a gun. They knew we had access to a gun, didn't say anything. And then he went and massacred, I think, four kids in that. And they went after the parents on that. And I think that most real ardent Second Amendment proponents that I know, everybody I talked to, was totally down with prosecuting the parents for that. And this mom got prosecuted criminally in both federal and state court under some interesting theories. She's lucky, I think, that the charges weren't heavier. And her interview, I think we Got a SOT on her interview someplace, too, if I'm not mistaken. Yeah, let's roll that.

[Commercial Announcer]

So he has adhd. Some are able to have it at a very mild rate. But he's off the wall, doesn't sit still ever. He actually really liked her. I will say that week he did come home and he was talking, you know, a lot about how he felt like he was being ignored. So he would come home at mom. I don't think that she was listening to me. I didn't like. And then actually he ended up getting suspended the next day because he was in class, he was trying to tell her something, and she asked him to go sit back down. He threw his arms up, he said fine. And when he threw his arms up, he knocked her phone out of her hand on accident. And he got suspended for that.

[Matt Murphy]

Mark, I gotta toss this one back to you. I mean, that's. We're seeing victim blaming in action right there, in my view. And I don't know who the guy is on her left, but it looks like you keep an attorney. What in God's name is her lawyer doing letting her do these interviews?

[Mark Garrigus]

Like, please, like I tell you, if you, if you've been around 6 year olds or 5 year olds or 7 year olds, anybody of that age, the idea that somehow the kid's having a bad day or the, that the kid. I'm not, I'm getting disrespected at age 6. I mean, that, that, that's a whole sociological analysis right there.

[Matt Murphy]

Right. And what kind of mom would, would leave a loaded gun without a safety on it in her purse? I present you that interview. I mean, and I think that, I think that, I think this jury's going to come in with a big dollar amount on this. And it's just the type of thing that just should never happen, in my view.

[Phil Holloway]

Yeah. So the mom, if I can just jump in real quick. The mom got, she, let's see, Deja Taylor, she got 21 months in federal prison for being an unlawful user of marijuana while in possession of a firearm and making a false statement related to the firearms purchase. And on the state level, she got an additional two year sentence for felony child neglect to be served after the federal prison term. But Matt, you talked about victim blaming. All right, well, look, I want to just run through. I prepared a little timeline of these red flags that were ignored. Mostly Ebony Parker, a school administrator who also. Administrator who also has federal, excuse me, criminal charges pending. She's not gone to trial yet, but at 9, 20 in the morning, the kid gets to school. He's said to have been in a violent mood, defiant, threatening others. Zwerner reported the aggression. It was completely ignored by this school administrator, Ebony Parker. Then again at noon, two students said that the kid had a gun and ammunition. Again, Parker said no search. She refused to authorize any further action, including a search of the kid at 12:30pm Thirty minutes later, the backpack was searched and at that time the gun was missing. But there was noted suspicious behavior by the kid with respect to his pockets. And they. So they wanted to search his pockets again. Parker said, oh, he's got little pockets. Okay. There's no need to search like face.

[Mark Garrigus]

Favorite is the little pockets.

[Phil Holloway]

It's crazy. A student showed the gun and the bullets to a friend during recess around 1:40. Again, Parker refused to search. And she said, hold off until the child's picked up. The mom will be here shortly, or words to that effect. And did not authorize any search. And then at 1:58, 18 minutes later, that's when this lady was shot. And so fast forward to the victim blaming by the attorney and then I'll be quiet. In the opening statement, Daniel Hogle, who delivered the opening statement for Ebony Parker, says questioned whether Zwermer the teacher failed to take steps for her own safety. In their opening statements, they are questioning whether this teacher took steps to protect her own safety.

[Commercial Announcer]

Not.

[Phil Holloway]

I just went over all these instances where she tried and tried and tried to get the administrators to do something. They did nothing and then she got shot. I can't understand the strategy.

[Mark Garrigus]

I have a question is if Ebony Parker is still facing charges, did I understand that correctly? Has not been resolved. I assume Ebony Parker is not going to testify and has a right, a constitutional right not to. And it's one of those kind of situations where you got the civil going before the criminal. If that's the case, all of that would come in. Presumably your timeline would come in. And there used to be a judge who sat in the LA Superior Court, Alexander Williams iii. And he used to say trials are basically to determine who's the asshole. And in this case, I think Ebony Parker or Ebony Parker's lawyer so far is winning that contest.

[Phil Holloway]

I concur. I can't understand this. You know, I. I just, I can't understand some of that strategy, though, where you're going to blame this victim for doing. You know, she did her best to try to get the school, her employer, to create a safe workspace and they refused to do so despite plenty of warnings. The grand Jury who indicted Parker, you know, had a lot to say about that. It's essentially egregious.

[Mark Garrigus]

Once again, where's our prosecutor when you need him?

[Matt Murphy]

Let me tell you guys, this one just. This one gets. It's like I'm a cat looking through a window at birds. You know, it gets me twitchy. It just makes you so angry. It's like, put me in the game.

[Mark Garrigus]

But.

[Matt Murphy]

But this is also one of those things. Plaintiff, a plaintiff's lawyer, if her attorney, if her plaintiff's lawyer, and you guys are two trial guys, man. If that lawyer has any game, and I think, and I think her team does, you could get a jury so frothy over this. And going back to the piano analogy, sometimes everybody is to blame, right? So there's plenty of blame to go around here. I think that that school administrator connects them to the deep pockets. I'm sure mom doesn't have any money, but boy, this is. I'm looking for a really big result. The day I get a case like this, it lands in my office. Guys will be doing this podcast from my. The deck of my yacht as the plaintiff's lawyer because there's, there's a big payday coming for somebody on this one.

[Mark Garrigus]

We're going to hold him, we're going to hold Murphy to that. They. We're going to take a break and then come back. Phil, which case would you like to discuss when we come back?

[Phil Holloway]

Well, if I had my druthers, I would say let's talk about Kada Scott and this crazy murder case.

[Mark Garrigus]

Okay, I'm with you. I've got that. And I may throw a curveball at you too. We'll see when we get back.

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[Mark Garrigus]

Welcome back to listen to your heart. I'm Jerry and I'm Jerry's heart. Today's repatha Evolocumab heart. Why'd you pick this one?

[Matt Murphy]

Well, Jerry, for people who have had.

[Phil Holloway]

A heart attack like us, diet and.

[Mark Garrigus]

Exercise might not be enough to lower the risk of another one. Okay. To help know if we're at risk, we should be getting our ldlc, our bad cholesterol checked and talking to our doctor.

[Phil Holloway]

I'm listening. And if it's still too high, Repatha.

[Mark Garrigus]

Can be added to a statin to lower our ldl C and our heart attack risk.

[Phil Holloway]

Hmm.

[Mark Garrigus]

Guess it's time to ask about repatha.

[Commercial Announcer]

Do not take repatha if you are allergic to it.

[Phil Holloway]

Serious allergic reactions can occur.

[Commercial Announcer]

Get medical help right away if you have trouble breathing or swallowing. Swelling of the face, lips, tongue, throat or arms.

[Phil Holloway]

Common side effects include runny nose, sore.

[Commercial Announcer]

Throat, common cold symptoms, flu or flu like symptoms, back pain, high blood sugar and redness. Pain or bruising at the injection site.

[Mark Garrigus]

Listen to your heart.

[Phil Holloway]

Ask your doctor about repatha. Learn [e-mail] or call 1-844-repatha.

[Mark Garrigus]

Last time I was with Mr. Murphy, we were discussing the Katis Scott case. And since that last time, there's been a couple of updates and we're going to let Phil join in our discussion of this case since he's as fascinated as Matt and I are. Phil, take it away.

[Phil Holloway]

Yeah. Well, for those of who may have missed that last show, Kata Scott was a 23 year old Pennsylvania State University GR working in an assisted living facility in Philadelphia. She disappeared Oct. 4 shortly after arriving for her overnight shift around 10pm she had borrowed her mother's car and left work early with cell phone data placing her at or near her workplace around 10:15pm after which the phone went offline at 10:24. Her body was unfortunately discovered on October 18 in a shallow grave in a wooded area behind the vacant Ada Lewis Middle school adjacent to the Aubrey Arboretum Recreation center. This was following a tip to authorities and her personal belongings had been found in the days earlier. Now, I think one of the updates that you're referring to, Mark, is that there are some older charges that have Been refiled, it seems back in late 2024, the defendant Keon King was arrested for assault. And then later in, I guess a couple months later, In January of 2025, Keon King was accused of kidnapping an earlier girlfriend, a different girlfriend. Now, those charges had been dismissed essentially by the prosecutor because the victim was afraid to come to court and didn't come to court. The accused had been released on bond, on very low bond apparently, and so she just didn't want to participate, essentially allegedly out of fear for her life. But they've added those charges back. And so now you've got him facing these murder charges. You've got him facing the earlier previously dismissed charges involving assault and kidnapping with a different female. And there's some very strange text messages that have, that have come into to light. Okay, the affidavit of probable cause says that Scott, the victim texted the defendant King, quote, kidnap me again, kidnap me again. To which King replied, better be up too. Followed by plans to meet later that night. So what does all this mean? I'm going to leave it to you guys to get that conversation started, but I've got my thoughts.

[Mark Garrigus]

Well, you know, you got it. You didn't join us last time. This case provokes Murphy, he goes from 0 to 120 on progressive prosecutors. You got to hear this. It's wild. Matt, Matt, I'm sure that this has gotten you all heated up immediately. I'm going to start calling you Microwave Matt.

[Matt Murphy]

Well, at least the microwave is 60 seconds. I think mostly you get stuff hot. Mark, this is one of those that this guy Larry Krasner is, I am not a fan. And he's up for election next month. He's just one of a number of these so called progressive das. And look, Mark and I are both old enough to remember California in the 1970s, in the 1980s where we had really a revolving door of justice which, you know, from one perspective can be a really good thing. When you're, when people are capable of learning or improving, you can get them rehab, you can, you can get them, you know, you can try to rehabilitate people. And I'm all for that, I really am. But there are certain people in the, in society that are just predatory and you can't fix them. And they're not, they're going to prey on innocent people. And this is one where Larry Krasner has a checkered history here, where he's come in with a lot of these policies like we just had with Gascon recently in la, where it's Low or no cash bail. And there's just this presumption almost geared towards release. In any case, one of the things that prosecutors deal with very early on in their careers is you deal with domestic violence cases where you have reluctant or, or recanting victims. It's a part of the fabric of prosecution. You learn it very early in your career. And when you have people that pose a real danger, that, that kind of progressive philosophy breaks down. And it broke down in this case. This guy, he, he was accused of kidnap and he got out on a very low bail and he's out of custody. The victim was reluctant. There was all manner of, of, of evidence that they could, that they could still introduce like we do in all of our DB domestic violence cases as prosecutors. And this guy got out and the victim didn't show up because she was apparently afraid of encountering him on the courthouse steps. And the prosecutor friggin dumped it. And even Krasner came out and said, we could have done better. Which in my view is an admission that he got this young woman killed. This young woman that, that is a victim here, happened right after they dumped this case. And you, you can also refile felonies as, as you guys both know. This is one that bothers me because it's an avoidable death. Another thing, let me just speak to the cell phones real quick and I'll kick it back to you guys.

[Mark Garrigus]

You're going to speak to the text messages? Because I'll tell you. Yeah, text messages. I want to hear your take on that.

[Matt Murphy]

Yeah, so it's going to be. I'm going to be very interested to see what the actual details reveal. Whenever you have text messages in a case, she had a co worker that said she lost around 10 o' clock before she got into a big black SUV that I believe was later connected to him. Now, it could be that she, that there was a previous relationship. It could be. There's stuff that we still need to learn. But I had a very big murder case. It was the Sam, her and Julie Kibuishi, a guy named Daniel Wozniak out of Orange County. You remember this one mark where the killer got ahold of the phone and had a whole series of text messages that he was putting in for the victims. And that was done as a deliberate attempt to throw detectives off the trail. And I'll tell you what I got to admit here, guys. It worked on the da, it worked on me. I believed it. And he set up this whole false thing where the victims are sending text Messages. And when we finally untangled it, much credit to the detectives involved in that because I bought it. And they were the ones that were going, no, there's something wrong here. It was all bullshit. It was all this horrible guy who committed two murders for money and cut off his neighbor's head was an Afghan war hero. And it was. So always have a skeptical eye on those text messages, especially if the coworker's right. Her shift ended coming up to 10 o'. Clock. The text message was sent at 10:07. It has not been established yet that that was not actually put in by the killer. But. But I don't know. I don't know one way or another. But you always never buy the, you know, this evidence. And I think you'd agree with this, Mark, evidence can often, for guilt or innocence. Our first impression can often be wrong. But even if they had some sort.

[Mark Garrigus]

Of prior relationship, it's interesting. I'd love to hear Phil talk about this because I've had a murder case a number of years ago where it turned out that the, the victim, it was a murder case and the victim had been using what's called spoofing type software. And she was the one who was actually sending the. The had planted the spyware, if you will, into my client's phone and then sending the text to herself to create a trail herself. And then we go back to Tyler Robinson. I'll tell you, those text messages there, I. They don't pass the smell test for me. And so I'm I in here. I'm very interested in hearing what Phil thinks about these text messages.

[Phil Holloway]

All right, well, Phil thinks that Keon King has some kind of, in my opinion, let's just call it a kidnapping and strangulation fetish of some kind. There's actual video, if we can roll that video of King allegedly stalking the exterior of the, I guess the earlier victim, victim's home back in January. And what we learned is that allegedly In January of 2025, King went to that victim's home on North 23rd Street. He was unable to break in. He waited outside, and when the victim stepped out, he allegedly grabbed her by the hair, dragged her into his car and drove at high speed for at least four miles. During the drive, he reportedly beat her, he bit her face, choked her and strangled her and further assaulted her. She sustained injuries. She was treated medically, and part of that incident was captured on video which later posted to social media and led to the arrest warrants. Okay, so fast forward to this case involving Kayda Scott's murder. And you have these text messages, kidnap me again. Okay, that was the first one. Assuming that the victim actually sent that. Was she.

[Mark Garrigus]

Do you think she did? I mean.

[Phil Holloway]

Well, I think. Well, assuming that she did, the cops think she did, but assuming she did, it might signal. And I think it would be on par with a, let's just say a dynamic of their relationship where, you know, he, he has this fetish for kidnapping and she wants to go along and roleplay accordingly. And she says, come kidnap me again. You know, that would basically suggest that he had done it before and it didn't end up the way it did. But I think my theory, and it's just a theory, and that's all it is at this point, is that he has some kind of psychosexual urge to feel like he's kidnapping and strangling his victims. And if that's the case, victim number one, assuming that was the actual number one, the, the. The victim from the January and late 2024 incidents. That woman is lucky to be alive. If I'm right.

[Mark Garrigus]

And Murphy, what does that do to the prosecutor? How do they blunt that?

[Matt Murphy]

Oh, man. I mean, the, the prosecution, and you'll notice they did refile the charges on that first kidnapping as they could have and should have done all along. You know, so now it's like, oh, somebody died, I guess we got to go forward. But it is just. It is, guys. It is mind boggling to me from a professional review of prosecutorial actions like this is. This is one of those things that is, you know, your job as a prosecutor fundamentally is fairness to the defendant and to the victims, but very closely behind that is public safety. And this is one that, in my view, it is so predictable that this guy was dangerous. And to just kind of blow it off because the vixen doesn't show up is fricking unforgivable. And whoever made that call ought to resign and go into some other form of law. They blew it. This is Larry Krasner's office. He's up for election in a month. He's being challenged by a former judge. And I hope that the voters of Philadelphia wake up and realize that their loved ones are at risk because of the insane policies of this district attorney. Even la, one of the most liberal cities in the entire world, we dumped our former version of this, George Gascon. I think he lost the election mark by like 30 points. I know you're no fan of Nathan Hoffman. That's a conversation that I really want to have with you. Maybe over. Over.

[Mark Garrigus]

Yeah, we're going to do that in the safe haven of Kern county in Bakersfield with Megan's tour, so. Or maybe in Orange County. But yeah, Orange county, yes. Phil, there was something I saw. Am I remembering correctly, that his lawyer, the accused lawyer, is taking all kinds of heat. Is that the same case or did I conflate that?

[Phil Holloway]

No, you're. It's the same case. So basically he's a. He's a black lawyer defending a black person accused of black owned black crime. And there's some controversy in some circles that, you know, if he's going to be an advocate for, you know, victims of black crime, he shouldn't be taking on this case. And, and look, he says, and I agree with him, and I'm paraphrasing, look, everybody's presumed innocent. They have a right to a lawyer. They have a right to a lawyer of their own choosing. And so he's ignoring all the uproar and he's saying, I'm gonna defend my client. As long as he wants me to be his lawyer, I'm not going anywhere and I'm not going to withdraw from the case. I say, good on him. That's the right way to go.

[Mark Garrigus]

You know, it'd be interesting to see to your. Your point, Phil and I, it's just occurred to me, as you were saying it, if you're him, the defense lawyer, I think you go and you try to interview the, the newly refiled, complaining witness in those charges and see if she admits that this was a role play. Because if you're right, then presumably, presumably she would have some insight into that as to what he does and whether she was a willing participant and whether that was dismissed before because she didn't want to cooperate because she was in on it. I mean, you know, I. Far be it for us three old white guys to throw stones. Everybody's got their own sexual peccadilloes. And, you know, well, it may not be for one of us three. Somebody else may float their boat.

[Matt Murphy]

Although I doubt she shot herself in the head. I agree with you, though.

[Mark Garrigus]

Isn't Philadelphia also where the woman supposedly stabbed herself 27 times in the back of her head also.

[Matt Murphy]

Is that Philadelphia? I didn't know that that case is. That one's a. Another one. Mark, that again, you talk about prosecutorial incompetence. She was sad. Yeah, 27 times, including the background head. And they ruled it a suicide. I did a 2020 on that. And it is shocking the level of professional incompetence. I didn't. I didn't. But I don't remember if that was Philadelphia or not. It sounds like it could be. Yeah.

[Mark Garrigus]

Yeah, you might be right. I think that it was. Well, we're going to take a break and we'll come back. I'm going to see if I throw a bird ball or not. And then I think we're going to do. You guys ready to do a little closing arguments as well?

[Matt Murphy]

Yep.

[Phil Holloway]

Ready. We'll be here.

[Mark Garrigus]

Thank you.

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[Phil Holloway]

These Doritos Golden Sriracha aren't that spicy.

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[Phil Holloway]

Um, a little spicy, but also tangy and sweet.

[Commercial Announcer]

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[Phil Holloway]

Heat or turn it down. It's time for something that's not too spicy. Try Doritos Golden Sriracha.

[Mark Garrigus]

Spicy but not too spicy. Okay, we're going to get to as promised to our closing arguments and we've got a viewer mail email. But first, I most of you who are watching this have seen the start of the tour, the Megyn Kelly tour. And she's going on tour and we're going to go with her, I believe. Phil and Ashley. Phil, when are you and Ashley doing the opening act?

[Matt Murphy]

Right.

[Phil Holloway]

So Ashley Merchant and I will be at the Atlanta tour stop and it's on November 8th and we are very much looking forward to it. It's one of these things like, you know, I hope I don't screw it up.

[Matt Murphy]

Right.

[Phil Holloway]

Because you know, there's so many people that work not only on this show, but on Megan's show that are often not in the same room at the same time. And you know, just to be able to be there and be with some of these people live and in person, I think it's going to be really, really neat and it's also going to be fun. One thing that I'm looking forward to, I know Ashley is as well, because we've talked about it. We're looking forward to meeting a lot of you, a lot of you in the audience, the viewing and listening audience, because you are the reason that we do this show and I know that you are the reason that Megan does her show. So we would be honored to get the chance to meet you there. I hope they'll come. And I know that in la when you and Matt that are together, I'm sure that's going to be a big crowd too.

[Mark Garrigus]

Matt, where are we, are we doing, why did I think it was Bakersfield? And you're correcting me that it's Orange county and what's the date?

[Matt Murphy]

Because they invited us to do both. They invited us Bakersfield and we're going to do the Honda Center. I believe it's November 21st and we're gonna be the warm up band. Mark. We're, I don't know how long they're giving us, but I think that's going to be actually a lot of fun.

[Mark Garrigus]

Gives you home court advantage there in Orange County. So then. Yes, and we go out to Bakersfield, that noted left wing bastion of California. What the, what is that?

[Matt Murphy]

I'm not doing that one. So I don't, I don't know when they got you lined up for her, but Orange County, I think that's going to be fun. I, I, I, I. Last time I was there was to watch the Mighty Ducks play. So this will be, I think this is going to be a really unique experience and I am, look, I am hugely honored that she invited us to do it. I think it's gonna be a lot of fun and I'm actually looking forward to watching the show. It's been amazingly successful, I think all of her stops so far.

[Mark Garrigus]

And boy, when you take a look at the people who are joining her on tour, it reminds me of the Stones when they're touring the country back in the 80s and there's various people that jump on stage with them at various venues and that's what she's had so far.

[Matt Murphy]

Well, in 1980, you might remember this. Prince, one of the greatest musical prodigies of the entire universe, opened for the Rolling Stones on that tour, Mark, and he got booed off the stage. So hopefully we don't get booed off the stage or that big hook comes out and pulls us off because God knows they're going to want to. They're going to want to hear from Megan.

[Mark Garrigus]

I remember that. Well, they would have been better off having the Plasmatics open for that particular audience. Prince was way ahead of his time.

[Matt Murphy]

Yep.

[Phil Holloway]

Hey, Mark, if you need some company, if Matt can't make it, I'm happy to come out there and hang out with you in Bakersfield. I'd be more than happy to make the trip just to. Just to be with you, my buddy.

[Mark Garrigus]

I love it. I love it. I'll see you there at Bakersfield.

[Phil Holloway]

All right.

[Mark Garrigus]

There's a. My favorite saltwater taffy place in the world is there in Bakersfield. So I'll take you over there to do ours.

[Phil Holloway]

Look forward. That would be a date. That would be awesome.

[Mark Garrigus]

I love it. Now we've got some mail. Phil, you're going to read it. You've got better eyesight than.

[Phil Holloway]

I don't know about that, but all right. So. Yeah, we do. And by the way, Matt has decided from henceforth he's going to be responsible for personally reading all of these emails and deciding which ones we're going to answer. So thank you, Matt, for. For doing that. Of course, I jest, but we do have great folks who do read those and we get so many that are just great. We can get to maybe one per show. This one's from Autumn. Autumn says hi all. Love your episodes. I live in California and have been following the story of Melody Buzzard, the missing nine year old from California. I read she was enrolled in a home homeschool option with the district and was not required to appear at school each day. I've been so curious about whether or not the school does have liability with checking in on kids regularly. I think it's a fascinating question. It's a fascinating case. It's one that I know we'll probably be covering in more depth here on MK True Crime, but you guys are the bastions of California jurisprudence. Matt and Mark. Matt, what do you think Liability there.

[Matt Murphy]

You know, that's a really good question. I. And I don't know the answer to that. Whether the school has liability in checking in. What I can comment though on this is that this is. This little girl is missing. The mother apparently is non cooperative at this point and there's an interesting video of her walking into a car rental place where the little girl is with her mom and she's got her hoodie is pulled up and she appears to be wearing a wig. That is really interesting to me because with all these horrible cases where like this little baby Haro in Riverside that's been going on where you have a missing child, I think my gut is telling me that this is one where and this information has not been released yet. But this, this might be a custody dispute. That's what it sounds like to me. I'm hoping that this girl is, is going to be found alive. Lompoc is a very kind of rural area in California for those who don't know. But this I don't know. I would love to get Mark's thoughts on this. This one could be one with a happy ending where they actually locate this girl. And we just don't know enough facts yet on this one.

[Mark Garrigus]

You know, it's funny you say that, because when I heard about this case first, I had a flashback to a case that I had in your backyard in, well, your former backyard in Orange county that we actually did a preliminary hearing and the judge reduced it because it did revolve around a custody dispute. And thank God in most of these cases, not by any means all but most of these cases you're talking about a custody dispute and ofttimes it ends well. So I'm with you on that. And to answer your question, Phil, there are all kinds of. It varies by school district, but the education code governs it and there are kind of protocols for when you want to homeschool somebody and there are you comply and you sign waivers and things like that. It's a pretty tough, a pretty heavy lift to fix liability onto the school district when you're homeschooling because the parents, as they should, generally have primary responsibility and dominion control over their kids.

[Phil Holloway]

Yeah, it makes sense to me. I can see if it were a physical schoolhouse, the traditional school building where the school authorities during the school day, as you mentioned, had dominion and control over a child. But when the parent affirmatively takes on that role, I would. It just is logical and it makes sense that that would minimize, if not eliminate the school's liability. But I think it's a great question. Thank you very much much for sending it to us here at MK True Crime. I think now it's time for. Mark, is it time for our.

[Mark Garrigus]

I think it's closing arguments. I'm going to let you go first, Bill because you've been doing all the heavy lifting.

[Phil Holloway]

Well, thank you. All right, so I'll go first. And look, this is our opportunity to rant or talk about any topic we want. I'm not going to talk about a legal topic today. I'm going to talk about something of a personal, personal topic, but one that's impacting all of us in the United States and in probably the world here in late October 2025. As many of you may know, I'm a general aviation pilot. And most of the time I fly for just leisure or fun. But there are times when I need to be able to have access and get into the general aviation system and take a trip, oftentimes on very short notice. And that happened last week, that we had a funeral that I needed to get to in Ohio, and I had to get there quickly and had to get back very quickly as soon as it was over the next day due to court and other things. And so I was able to take, you know, I was able to fly myself to Ohio and back. And I was a user of the same air traffic control system that and all the other planes use, the military and the airlines and all of us. And I gotta tell you, the air traffic controllers made that possible, but they are not getting paid. And I just wanted to take a minute to say thank you to the air traffic controllers who made that quick trip, that sudden trip possible for me, even though they're not getting paid. These men and women were so professional, so courteous. They. They did their jobs just all the same as they always have. As long as I've been flying my entire life, they've been great. This was no exception, with one difference. The one difference is I could literally feel the stress in their voice because these people, as I mentioned, they're working oftentimes doubles.

[Mark Garrigus]

They're.

[Phil Holloway]

They have a lot of people that are short. They're already shorthanded, and now they're not getting paid. And you could. You could feel the stress in their voice. It was palpable. And I just couldn't help but thinking about them the entire way there and back, that these men and women were showing up to work, they were doing their job, not getting paid, so that I had the privilege to make the trip to a loved one's funeral. And I appreciate it. And I want to say thank you to them and to all the other essentials, federal workers who are showing up for work and who aren't getting paid. Hopefully this shutdown will end soon. So thank you to all those folks very Apropos.

[Mark Garrigus]

Thank you. Phil and Matt, how about you?

[Matt Murphy]

Yeah. So I want to talk about a concept today known as officer created jeopardy. And I think you're going to like this Mark. So I'm going to put my defense attorney hat on here for a second. Being a police officer is a very difficult job. And for the women and men that do that, they encounter things that are, are on a daily basis that would shock the general public. And there's this, this kind of afterbirth of the summer of 2020 where it is an academic idea where we are going to under the officer created jeopardy theory, begin imposing criminal liability on police officers for 2020 second guessing in encounters that turn violent. And essentially the way it works is this police officer encounters somebody who turns out to be a violent person. Sometimes it results in a shooting, sometimes just the use of force. And essentially the way the law is right now under a case called Graham v. O', Connor, they don't do a 2020 evaluation of what the police did. They view it from the position of a reasonable police officer when that officer is confronted with deadly force. And what this new law, this new idea proposes is we are going to second guess every policy violation, every tactical mistake that that officer made that led to this violent encounter. And I got a case right now where I have an innocent police officer who's been charged in Los Angeles county with a shooting that wound up being deadly, where a guy had a gun in his lap that later turned out to be a pellet gun and he's been, this officer has been criminally charged. It is absolute madness, guys. And nobody's talking about this, nobody knows about this absolute madness that we will impose criminal liability on our women and men in law enforcement for split second judgment calls that they have to make when they perceive a deadly threat. And it is something that people need to be aware of. This is not the last time I'm going to talk about it, but it is absolute friggin madness. And I just want to kind of make everybody aware of this and I'm going to be talking about it more in the future. This is the case. I wanted to talk to you off the record, Mark, I'd love to get your take on is the type of thing that we cannot have in a civilized society. And I think that we have to have this madness of the Larry Krasner or George Gascon hard loony, left, left. When it comes to cops, the defund. The police movement didn't just stop at taking money away. They're trying to criminally prosecute our police officers for judgment calls. And I don't know who would ever want to be a cop. And people need to be aware of it. And we need to put a stop to this while we still can. That's my rant for today.

[Mark Garrigus]

Before I go into my rant, who's prosecuting that case?

[Matt Murphy]

Well, it was Gascon and we're waiting to see what, what Hockman's going to do. At a big meeting with him last week, he was very courteous. But this is one. Mark, when I. You're going to be probably shocked but not surprised at some of the stories I got to tell you. I've never seen anything like it. This guy's got two kids, model police officer number one in his academy class, face to face with a gangster with a gang tattoo on his face, who's high on meth, who reaches for a gun on friggin video. And my guy shoots, kills him. And now he's looking at 11 years in state prison that he would not survive if he's, if he's convicted. And one way or another, I'm hoping Hockman does the right thing on this. I really hope the next time I'm on here I'm able to announce good news. But this is the type of thing that it's a matter of life and death and there's a lot of emotion on that other side and the adults in the room, rational people have to come in because it's not right. And if this guy goes down for this, every police officer in America should be very afraid. And by the way, I will debate any academic, anytime, anywhere on the merits of this, this lunacy. And yeah, in front of any fair audience or judge, I will win. And I think I will win this trial if it has to go. But it's, it's crazy times, guys. And I, I really do. Mark, I want to break this down for you when, when we get off.

[Mark Garrigus]

One of these days, I, I would love that now you would remind me. I'll tell you about my federal prosecution, which I think we will prevail on this coming week on a correctional officer where I think the U.S. attorney is going to do the right thing and it's going to get dismissed under kind of similar circumstances that came out of a delayed prosecution, if you will, through a different prison. My rant is more built on today the argument that, or it's not really the argument the way that Phil had mentioned about the Katis Scott lawyer who is being, I guess, vilified, is not too strong of a term. You know, the. And it's interesting that Matt is talking about defending a police officer because I, I can tell you just personally, I can one morning be defending a correctional officer with an unblemished record who's facing federal criminal charges that afternoon. I can be running down to San Diego county to be defending somebody who's accused of murder of their mother. And it's interesting how the same person can view that role completely different, not understanding that. Part of the beauty and part of the whole reason that the system is developed this way is that because the lawyers are not supposed to just be window dressing. Lawyers are supposed to be there to advocate for the client, to be the voice for the client and to test the government. And that's what Phil does every day. It's what Matt does every day, and it's what I do every day. And ultimately, at the end of the day, for those who throw verbal rocks or bricks at lawyers like the lawyer who's defending the gentleman who's accused in Philadelphia, remember, if they didn't do that, think about the number of people who have been exonerated who were on death row because of the advent of DNA. Think about all the other wrongful convictions as a result of false confessions and the studies that have done there. So every time you jump to the conclusion and think somebody is a remember, there's usually some lawyer over there toiling in obscurity who's pushing the government, testing the government and not rolling over. And then that's to my mind, not only the beauty of the way the system is set up, but a testament to the founding fathers in the constitutional framework. And I will leave it at that. Gentlemen, thank you for waiting for me. Those who don't know because we they waited I to to Phil's point, as I sit here in an airport, we had a little technical difficulties, but we're here and I also for the shutdown to be over very soon. Thanks to my fellow contributors Matt Murphy and Phil Holloway and thank you for joining us today in MK True Crime. Send us your story, suggestions, Questions, [e-mail] and have a great week. We'll see you again in a couple of days.

[Phil Holloway]

With my job, I can't drink during the week.

[Matt Murphy]

Weekends are a different story.

[Commercial Announcer]

After eight hours of this, I have earned my wine. You know what I'm saying?

[Matt Murphy]

My family is a lot.

[Phil Holloway]

It takes me four beers just to.

[Matt Murphy]

Hang out with them.

[Phil Holloway]

Binge drinking isn't all college kids doing cake stands. Oregonians in their 30s and 40s binge drink at close to the same rates as younger people, raising our risk for long term health problems. [e-mail] An OHA initiative.

[Commercial Announcer]

Are you ready to get spicy?

[Phil Holloway]

These Doritos Golden Sriracha aren't that spicy.

[Commercial Announcer]

Sriracha sounds pretty spicy to me.

[Phil Holloway]

Um, a little spicy, but also tangy and sweet.

[Commercial Announcer]

Maybe it's time to turn up the heat.

[Mark Garrigus]

Or turn it down.

[Phil Holloway]

It's time for something that's not too spicy. Try Doritos Golden Sriracha spicy but not too spicy.