White House Shooter’s Criminal Record, TikTok Star’s Murder-For-Hire Plot, and Serial Killer’s Search for Justice, with Sheryl McCollum

Summary

---

MK True Crime Podcast – "White House Shooter's Criminal Record, TikTok Star’s Murder-For-Hire Plot, and Serial Killer's Search for Justice, with Sheryl McCollum"

Date: May 27, 2026
Hosts: Jonna Spilbore & Mark Iglarsch
Guest: Cheryl McCollum

---

Episode Overview

In this episode, criminal defense attorney Jonna Spilbore and former prosecutor Mark Iglarsch explore three gripping true crime stories:

• The fatal White House shooting by a man with a known criminal and mental health history.
• A TikTok influencer and her lawyer father caught in a bizarre, high-profile murder-for-hire plot.
• An interview with Emmy-award-winning crime scene investigator Cheryl McCollum, discussing her new book about solving the cold case of a serial killer’s missing daughter.

The episode is underscored by sharp legal insight, personal reflections, and a dose of the hosts’ trademark banter and sarcasm.

---

Key Discussion Points and Insights

---

1. White House Shooting: Failures in Justice and Mental Health

[06:11–13:12]

• Incident Recap: 21-year-old Nasheer Best opened fire outside a Secret Service checkpoint at the White House, leading to his own death and wounding one other person, who is expected to recover.
• Criminal and Mental Health Background:
  • Best was already known to DC police, had a criminal history, a warrant out for failure to appear, and a history of mental illness.
  • "This is something that may have been prevented if our justice system was working at its highest bet." – Jonna (07:09)
• Systemic Failures Discussed:
  • The difficulties of apprehending individuals with outstanding warrants due to limited police resources.
  • The challenges of intervention in cases involving mental illness unless there are overt threats or previous violence.
  • Frustration at how individuals "slip through the cracks."
    • Jonna: "Here was a guy clearly mentally ill, clearly with a criminal history, clearly didn’t show up for court when he was supposed to, clearly had a warrant, and now he’s dead." (09:56)
• Law Enforcement and Public Responsibility:
  • Mark highlights the legal limitations: “It’s very hard to take any action against someone merely because you think they have mental illness. You know, there are laws against that.” (10:02)

Notable Moment:

• Viral Clip: NBC reporter Julie Serkin’s confused "What is that?" reaction to the gunfire goes viral and becomes a light interlude.
  • "She can't even tell it's gunfire ... Sounds like a freaking war and she can't tell it’s gunfire." – Jonna (11:33)
  • The reporter later pokes fun at herself, which the hosts appreciate.

---

2. TikTok Star’s Murder-For-Hire Plot

[14:07–22:30]

• Case Summary:

  • TikTok influencer Gabriella Gonzalez (24yo, ~500k followers) and her Florida lawyer father allegedly attempted to hire someone to kill her ex, Jack Avery, a boy band singer and the father of her child.
  • "Her father was also arrested because he funded the whole thing… He's a lawyer. He should know better." – Mark (15:21)

• Social Media Persona:

  • Mark mocks the wisdom dispensed in Gabriella's viral clips: "She is like the Dalai Lama…We really need to make sure her platform doesn't go away." (16:14)

• Murder-for-Hire Patterns:

  • Mark connects the case to the infamous Dalia Dippolito case, which similarly involved a “hitman” (who turned out to be an undercover cop).
  • Audio clip played of Dippolito’s conviction and her memorable quote: “No, there’s no, like, I’m positive … Like 5,000%.” (18:48)

• Legal Analysis of Gonzalez Case:

  • Jonna posits: “It is possible that her lawyer dad did not know what he was funding.” She suggests it’s plausible he was unwittingly providing funds to his daughter without knowledge of her intentions. (19:54)
  • Mark disagrees: “Never. It's never going to happen. Not gonna happen.” (20:35)

• Tactics:

  • Both agree prosecutors will attempt to flip the boyfriend (alleged go-between) to testify against Gonzalez and her father.
  • Jonna: “If dad is really implicated we will see it in text messages because 24-year-olds don't talk on the phone. They text.” (22:09)

---

3. Interview with Crime Scene Investigator Cheryl McCollum: Serial Killer’s Daughter Cold Case

[24:18–44:41]

Background/Introduction

• Cheryl McCollum is introduced as an Emmy-winning crime scene investigator and head of the Cold Case Investigative Research Institute.
  • She is on the show to discuss her book, "Swans Don't Swim in a Sewer," about the cold case of Melissa, the daughter of serial killer Carl Patton (The Flint River Killer).

Details of the Case

• Entry into the Case:
  • Melissa’s mother approached Cheryl at a speaking event, asking for help with her daughter’s case.
    • "She turned the picture around and said, ‘This is my daughter Melissa. She was beheaded in Atlanta. Will you help me?’ And so I thought, there's no way to say no to her." – Cheryl (25:02)
  • The mother admitted her husband was in prison for murder and that she helped him.
• Complexity of Case:
  • The remains were misidentified as a Caucasian male, and only correct years later thanks to cross-checking dental records.
  • For several years, Melissa was not even counted as a missing person or homicide victim.

On Serial Killers and Investigation Challenges

• Cold Case Stats:
  • Cheryl: "I would say about 50% now go unsolved." (26:39)
• Missteps and Misidentification:
  • Combination of errors, not pure incompetence; e.g., remains were sent to a "body farm" for study (University of Tennessee).
• Media’s Role:
  • Cheryl emphasized media outreach and circumstantial evidence when physical proof is lacking: “There’s still things we can do... The media does help solve cases.” (31:49)

Victimology and Trial

• Suspects:
  • Focus was on Melissa’s husband, who acted peculiarly—abandoning his kids and offering inconsistent stories. He tried to blame Melissa’s notorious father, Carl Patton, but only after Patton's death.
• Defense Challenges:
  • With Melissa's dad a known serial killer, police and the community suspected bias: “You don’t think that defense attorney is going to mention that every five seconds?” – Cheryl (34:19)
• Trial Outcome:
  • The husband was tried 25 years after Melissa’s disappearance and found not guilty in August 2025 (Verdict played at 39:38).
    • “You know in your gut, you know in your heart what happened to this poor child. But, you know, the jury spoke and I accepted it.” – Cheryl (40:13)

Book Title Story

• "Swans Don’t Swim in a Sewer" is a phrase from working with Nancy Grace tracking down a witness in Atlanta: “Nancy turned to him and said, ‘Swans don’t swim in a sewer. Where do you think we have to go to find her?’” (38:07)

Key Quotes:

• "If Carl had anything to do with it, all he had to do is keep his mouth shut, and nobody would have ever heard of her ever, right? But he’s begging anybody for help.” – Cheryl (35:27)
• On jury decision: “I think the jury could not get past the sins of the father.” (41:40)

---

4. Iconic Movie Moment and Off-the-Record Rants

[46:22–56:44]

A Few Good Men Scene

• The hosts play and react to the famous "You can’t handle the truth!" courtroom scene (47:48).
• Reflection by Mark: "I love it for movie, but not for real life ... we are programmed not to ask a question that we don’t know the answer to. For good reason." (49:34)

Off-the-Record Personal Rants

• Mark’s Rant [50:33]:
  • Concern over increasing normalization of violent threats/shooters at high-profile locations like the White House.
  • Calls for greater public vigilance and action regarding signs of mental illness and bullying.
  • “If you see something, say something … If there's a way to step up our game and stop this bullying … it needs to stop.”
• Jonna’s Rant [52:56]:
  • A satirical “celebration” of a viral TikTok trend (the "hung smile" to judge a man’s endowment), poking fun at pseudo-scientific social media fads and reflecting on the lighter (and absurd) side of modern internet culture.
  • "...this whole hung smile thing is less about the size of a man’s penis and more about the size of his bank account. If we’re going to embrace junk science, let’s focus on the one measurement of a man that’s actually easy to verify—his net worth." (55:35)

---

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “You have to have fun with it.” — Mark on the viral reporter gaffe (13:02)
• “She is a dumb little embryo who doesn’t know shit about shit.” — Jonna about TikTok star Gabriella Gonzalez (16:30)
• “If you want your husband dead and you don’t want to ruin your manny to pull the trigger yourself, what else are you going to do? … You got to be stupid.” — Jonna (21:24)
• “Swans don’t swim in a sewer.” — Nancy Grace, recounted by Cheryl (38:07)
• “You know in your gut, you know in your heart what happened to this poor child. But… the jury spoke and I accepted it.” — Cheryl (40:13)
• “If you see something, say something.” — Mark (52:15)
• “...let's focus on the one measurement of a man that's actually easy to verify—his net worth. Because no woman has ever complained about a fat bank account.” — Jonna’s rant (55:35)

---

Timestamps for Key Segments

• White House Shooter Discussion: 06:11–13:12
• Reporter Viral Moment: 11:17–13:12
• TikTok Murder-For-Hire: 14:07–22:30
• Cheryl McCollum Interview—Flint River Case: 24:18–44:41
• A Few Good Men Movie Clip & Reflection: 46:22–50:15
• Mark’s Off-the-Record Rant: 50:33–52:45
• Jonna’s Off-the-Record Rant: 52:56–56:44

---

Final Thoughts

The episode delivers a dynamic blend of current crime headlines, legal analysis, dark humor, personal insights, and a poignant interview. The hosts’ chemistry, legal acumen, and willingness to tackle both the serious and the absurd make this an engaging listen for true crime and legal fans alike.

---

Guest Info:
Cheryl McCollum’s book "Swans Don’t Swim in a Sewer: Solving the Cold Case of the Flint River Killer’s Daughter" is available on Amazon, Barnes & Noble, Walmart, Target.

Next up: The hosts (and Cheryl) will be at CrimeCon Las Vegas, inviting listeners to join them.

---

Transcript

[Mark Iglarsch]

Ryan Reynolds here from Mint Mobile. I don't know if you knew this, but anyone can get the same Premium Wireless for $15 a month plan that I've been enjoying. It's not just for celebrities.

[Commercial Voice 1]

So do like I did and have

[Mark Iglarsch]

one of your assistant's assistants switch you to Mint Mobile today. I'm told it's super easy to [e-mail]

[Commercial Voice 2]

Switch upfront payment of $45 for 3 month plan equivalent to $15 per month. Required intro rate first 3 months only. Then full price plan options available, taxes and fees, extra fee full [e-mail] avoiding

[Commercial Voice 3]

your unfinished because you're not sure where to start. Thumbtack knows homes so you don't have to. Don't know the difference between matte paint finish and satin or what that clunking sound from your dryer is. With thumbtack, you don't have to be a home pro. You just have to hire one. You can hire top rated pros, see price estimates and read reviews all on the app. Download today.

[Jonna Spilbore]

Hello and welcome to another edition of Positively Legal. I'm Jonna Spilbore, criminal defense attorney and founder of Jonna Spilbore Law.

[Mark Iglarsch]

And I'm Mark Eiglarsch. I hope I'm pronouncing that correctly. I am a former prosecutor and I'm a defense attorney. I'm an adjunct law professor and I'm an avid pickleball player.

[Jonna Spilbore]

Thank you for that. Today on the show, a gunman was killed after opening fire at a Secret Service checkpoint outside the White House over the weekend. We will share his prior offenses. A Tik Tok star and her Florida lawyer dad. No, not Mark. Have been accused in a twisted murder for hire plot. And we will explore a serial killer search for the murderer of his missing daughter with crime scene investigator Cheryl McCollum. But first, it's happy hour. Mark.

[Mark Iglarsch]

Yes, Happy hour.

[Jonna Spilbore]

Tell me all about it. How's your day going, my friend?

[Mark Iglarsch]

It's crazy. First of all, if you haven't noticed, I have a different background here. I'm at the LaGuardia Airport and you see, my wife and I came here to see a play that our cousin wrote. So we see the play. We thought we'd be able to do the podcast a little earlier. We couldn't. So we scrambled through security, found the kids room. I mean, literally, this is. If any kids walk in here, they're going to hear us talking about, you know, murder for hire and, and, and death and, and blood and guts and, and your Botox Things they shouldn't be exposed to at such a young age. It's frightening, really. But I'm here and. And hopefully this room will suffice.

[Jonna Spilbore]

Well, I appreciate you taking one for the seat. You look marvelous. So the Kids room at LaGuardia Airport.

[Cheryl Mack McCollum]

Yeah.

[Jonna Spilbore]

Fantastic lighting.

[Mark Iglarsch]

Yeah. I found. Thank you. Thank you for that. Yeah. And. And we had a very early day. We did very touristy things. We. First you saw the Great Gatsby on Broadway last night because it's really one of the very few things that are playing on a Monday night. Not that interested. But we actually loved it. It was great. Oh, good. Then, I mean, right out of the touristy playbook, we got tickets to see live with Mark and Kelly. So Kelly Ripa and her husband Mark and Andrew Reynolds, who's the original in my. I love that Broadway show, Book of Mormon. He was there. It was a cool experience. We loved it.

[Jonna Spilbore]

All right. Yeah. That's what you did. Where'd you go to dinner?

[Mark Iglarsch]

A few nice places. I forget the names, you know. What about you? What about your morning?

[Jonna Spilbore]

Oh, so you were. You experienced the New York soaking wet of Memorial Day weekend experience? Yeah. So that mother Nature stole our three day weekend, basically. Until. Until last night and then today, you know, Mark, let me ask you. Sometimes it's not a Monday today it's a Tuesday, but it feels like Monday because we're coming off a three day weekend.

[Mark Iglarsch]

Yes.

[Jonna Spilbore]

And in our business, and correct me if maybe it's just mine, I don't know, maybe it's yours too. But in our business, Mondays can be crazy. Like things happen on the weekends and then clients call on Monday. Like everything that happened bad to them is your fault. Does that ever happen to you?

[Mark Iglarsch]

Yes. Everything that my clients do happens on a Tuesday. If there's kids coming into our podcast. Yes, it's happening. It's happening right now as I'm complaining. Yes.

[Jonna Spilbore]

In the field of law and a law practice now.

[Mark Iglarsch]

Yes.

[Jonna Spilbore]

I have a small law office, 10 people on the payroll. You have a small law office.

[Mark Iglarsch]

Yes.

[Jonna Spilbore]

I bet you in every single law office, Mondays are always the day that the clients call with the most complaints.

[Mark Iglarsch]

Yes. Yes. No. Stress levels start like this on Monday and then they go down throughout the week. Yes. That happened with you. So you got some complaints.

[Jonna Spilbore]

Yes, it happens. It happens all the time. Every single person that called today, which is a Tuesday, but really a Monday, because we had a three day weekend, had a complaint. And I'm thinking now that I might have a million dollar idea. Hear me out. Since we know clients are always angry on Monday.

[Mark Iglarsch]

Yes.

[Jonna Spilbore]

Change normal business hours.

[Mark Iglarsch]

Yes.

[Jonna Spilbore]

To Saturday through Thursday.

[Mark Iglarsch]

Horrible idea.

[Jonna Spilbore]

Monday.

[Mark Iglarsch]

I'm sorry, I should keep listening. Go on. I'm sorry. I jumped and said it was horrible right away.

[Commercial Voice 1]

Go on.

[Jonna Spilbore]

You will avoid Mark. He will avoid the manic Monday. Ness.

[Mark Iglarsch]

Yes. Okay. Let's put that on the positive side of the scale. The other side is you're giving up your weekends.

[Jonna Spilbore]

Well, you create a new weekend. You create a new weekend. Why is your own weekend.

[Mark Iglarsch]

Why that's just positively legal. Jona.

[Cheryl Mack McCollum]

Ding, ding, ding.

[Mark Iglarsch]

I don't know.

[Jonna Spilbore]

Very good, very good. Okay.

[Mark Iglarsch]

Oh, yes.

[Jonna Spilbore]

We'll move on from that. I do think it's a good idea. I would like to hear from our listeners. If they think it's a good idea to change the work week to avoid the manic Mondays. I think it's genius. Sure. Okay, so now what do we have coming up?

[Mark Iglarsch]

Oh, shooters at the White House. I don't know. You know, we could talk about that.

[Jonna Spilbore]

So that was big news over the weekend. You probably missed it because you were being a tourist in New York City.

[Cheryl Mack McCollum]

But we did have.

[Jonna Spilbore]

Guys, this is really upsetting to me because this is number four. Is this like it's not technically an assassination attempt, but a shooting is a shooting around the President. Right. And we don't like it. And this one did not end well for the shooter. We had a 21 year old male named Nasheer Best of Maryland. He was fatally shot by Secret Service because he opened fire outside the White House. Only he was fatally shot. There was one other person who was injured. Did not die. Is expected to be. Okay, that's good. But this person was no stranger to the Secret Service. He was no stranger to the D.C. police. Like he had a history apparently of mental illness, which probably most of the people who want to fire guns around the White House are not mentally stable. Right. They probably all have that characteristic in common. So. And you know what the shameful part is? The shameful part is because he was no stranger to the D.C. police. Because he had a warrant out for his arrest. Because he failed to appear for something else prior. This is something that may have been prevented if our justice system was working at its highest bet.

[Mark Iglarsch]

Okay, tell us, tell us how. I know where you're going with this. I wondered who would bring this up. It's you. Okay, so how could this suppress us? How could we have prevented this? And someone did get shot. It's not a no arm, no foul. All right, so the President did get shot. Somebody got Shot.

[Jonna Spilbore]

Somebody did get shot. And fortunately, you know, wounded but not dead. I think that's fortunate because here's the thing. When we let people like Nasheer best slip through the cracks. And that's what he did. When let them slip through the cracks.

[Mark Iglarsch]

Did he?

[Jonna Spilbore]

Yeah, go get them. I mean, apparently. Look, I know that when people have warrants for minor, I'll say misdemeanor, doesn't necessarily mean minor offenses. The police don't go on an all out manhunt for you. I get that. But there are other ways you get caught. You roll through a stop sign, you get pulled over, oh, hey, you got an active warrant, you're coming with me. But when that doesn't happen, and you've got somebody with mental illness and you have somebody with a known criminal history and you don't take the extra step to get them back in the system, these things happen.

[Mark Iglarsch]

Okay, so first, I don't disagree with you. I think in an ideal world we would send people out to pick up anybody who has a warrant. That said, we do not have the resources, they do not have the resources to go after every person with a possession of marijuana charge or resisting an officer because they tightened up their arms when they were being arrested. I, I, I, typically those things play out with accidents or with, you know, contact with law enforcement where they checked their licenses and then realized, okay, there's a warrant.

[Jonna Spilbore]

Let me, let me add another wrinkle. Let me add another fact. Right, so, okay, let's suppose you're in Nasheer best world and suddenly he starts unfriending you because he's claiming that he is. Jesus Christ. Yes, and if you're his friend and you're not on board, then he starts unfriending you. So he's isolating himself. Right. Somebody's gotta say, hey, Nasheer, probably not doing too well mentally. Maybe let's contact some sort of law enforcement to do a welfare check. Look, I'm not saying it takes a village. People are responsible for themselves. But here was a guy clearly mentally ill, clearly with a criminal history, clearly didn't show up for court when he was supposed to, clearly had a warrant, and now he's dead.

[Mark Iglarsch]

All good issues to be raised. Again, I'm not sure that anything could be done about it. Clearly, if anybody thinks that he was going to do an act of violence, shame on them, they need to speak up. In this instance, however, the mom said he has never been violent. And so again, mental illness unfortunately is a fact of life and people live with it. And, and Most of them don't go around carrying guns and. Or trying to kill the president. So it's very hard to take any action against someone merely because you think that they have mental illness. You know, there's laws against that.

[Jonna Spilbore]

Because his. Because his mommy says he's never been violent. You know what I mean? Like, what is your mommy going to say?

[Mark Iglarsch]

Well, who else is saying something else? You know what I'm saying?

[Jonna Spilbore]

Yeah, you know?

[Mark Iglarsch]

I know you know what I'm saying. All right, so we talked about it.

[Jonna Spilbore]

Let's lighten it up. Let's lighten it up a little now. Well, sort of lighten it up. So related to this, there was a lot of reporting, as you can imagine, going on around the White House. And this one NBC reporter had a very interesting reaction. It didn't sound like she knew exactly what was happening, when it was happening. Let's play Saw one so we can get Julie Serkin's reaction to the shoot.

[Mark Iglarsch]

What is that?

[Jonna Spilbore]

What is that?

[Commercial Voice 3]

Sounds like power.

[Mark Iglarsch]

She can't even tell it's gunfire.

[Jonna Spilbore]

It sounds like a freaking war and she can't tell it's gunfire. She should have been beaten feet.

[Mark Iglarsch]

Wait, hold on. I defended someone involved in the school shooting, Parkland. A lot of the students thought it was fireworks at first. They couldn't tell that it was gunfire. It's a similar thing. And there's the pronounced echo in certain areas. So they don't know. You don't always know it's gunfire. She didn't.

[Jonna Spilbore]

If I heard that, that was loud and that was chaotic, and I would have probably taken cover instead of sticking my face around the building.

[Mark Iglarsch]

That would have been my first thought. Yes.

[Jonna Spilbore]

So with that, with that said, so she went viral for that moment because it's at once, you know, unbelievable. A little bit funny. Not so to her credit, this reporter, Julie Serkin, if I'm pronouncing her name right, made fun of herself.

[Mark Iglarsch]

Good for her.

[Jonna Spilbore]

To combat that video, let's take a look at Thought three.

[Mark Iglarsch]

What is that? We're waking up this morning to devastation.

[Cheryl Mack McCollum]

Cool.

[Commercial Voice 2]

Oh, my gosh.

[Cheryl Mack McCollum]

Isn't that great?

[Mark Iglarsch]

Just what up yesterday?

[Jonna Spilbore]

What is that?

[Commercial Voice 1]

Okay.

[Mark Iglarsch]

That's cute. Yeah, it's hilarious.

[Jonna Spilbore]

You gotta see what she does at the end, though. It's funny. That face.

[Mark Iglarsch]

Oh, my God.

[Jonna Spilbore]

You know what? Good on her. Good on her for turning that. Because that was kind of an embarrassing moment for her. She's young, obviously.

[Mark Iglarsch]

Yes. You gotta have fun with it. Oh, you gotta have fun with it.

[Jonna Spilbore]

And she did. So kudos to You? Julie. Julie Serkin? If I'm pronouncing your name right. Ok.

[Kiana (Shopify Ad Voice)]

I'm Kiana. And I leveled up my business with Shopify. Once I figured out that Shopify was a thing, I never turned back. I can create a site with my eyes closed. Shopify thinks ahead of us, you know, and it thinks about the customer more than anything. Every day I'm thinking about some other new business, but Shopify is doing it to me because it's so easy to use. It's like I can't stop. I'm addicted. Start your free [e-mail] Jackpot for the

[Cheryl Mack McCollum]

Luckyland Snow Queen herself.

[Jonna Spilbore]

Hey, who's playing my game? The Queen herself.

[Cheryl Mack McCollum]

Tiff, I know you're new here, but you're going to need a lot more gold coins.

[Jonna Spilbore]

No.

[Commercial Voice 2]

I declare myself the Lucky Land Snow Queen.

[Cheryl Mack McCollum]

Yeah, right.

[Commercial Voice 2]

Think you can take down the Lucky Land Queen?

[Jonna Spilbore]

Not on my watch.

[Cheryl Mack McCollum]

I'm Tiffany Stratton from the wwe. And I'm Charlotte Flair. Play Lucky Land Casino today to see

[Commercial Voice 2]

if you can take the throne.

[Mark Iglarsch]

No purchase necessary.

[Commercial Voice 3]

BMW Group woodwork prohibited by law.

[Mark Iglarsch]

See terms and conditions for details. 21 sponsored by Luckyland Casino. Can I ask you, Jonna, are you a TikTok fan?

[Jonna Spilbore]

You know, that's the one I'm on. No, I'm on.

[Mark Iglarsch]

Really.

[Jonna Spilbore]

That's the least. And then TikTok least. But I want to be a TikTok fan. I want.

[Mark Iglarsch]

Oh, are you a lot of fun.

[Jonna Spilbore]

Yeah.

[Mark Iglarsch]

And then they. They know what I like and then they deliver certain things that I like. Yeah. So, yeah. So we're going to talk about TikTok a little bit because there's a TikTok star whose name is Gabriella Gonzalez. She's a 24 year old influencer. She's got about a half a million followers. That's significant for TikTok. She's probably monetizing it. And she apparently hired someone or attempted to hire someone to kill her ex. Why? Because they have a kid together. Who's her ex? Some famous boy band singer. His name is Jack Avery. And she was arrested in California last week. And her father was also arrested because he funded the whole thing. He wanted this guy out of their lives. And guess what he does for a living, Jonna?

[Jonna Spilbore]

He's a lawyer.

[Mark Iglarsch]

That's right. He should know better. Right. First, let's get an idea of who this Gabby Gonzalez is and why the kids like her. Why half a million people follow her. Why? Let's go to sign number four. Take a Look at what she has to offer.

[Cheryl Mack McCollum]

Men come as they are. They do not change. You get what you get. So how a man comes is how he's most likely going to be for eternity. I know that's really scary because women are always growing, adapting, changing, getting these new parts of themselves, bringing back old parts of themselves really, like just becoming something brand new, like legitimately every day while also maintaining their like self. And then you have men. They don't change, girl. They don't.

[Mark Iglarsch]

I am praying, Jonna, that there's TikTok in prison because she's like the Dalai Lama. She is like Martin Luther King. The words that flow from her lips are so significant that we really need to make sure her platform doesn't go away.

[Jonna Spilbore]

She is a dumb little embryo who doesn't know shit about shit. Obviously you can't at 24 know shit about shit. Except she was wise enough to try to hire someone to kill her. I think it's her baby daddy. I think they have a kid together.

[Mark Iglarsch]

They do. That's the thing. It's a seven year old daughter. And you know, those custody battles can get ugly. So dad sent $10,000 to, I think her then boyfriend to hire someone to kill the. The boy band guy, the father of the seven year old. And immediately, as I'm reading this, I'm thinking of a case that I was involved with. Dalia Depolito. I represented her for a year and she hired what she thought was a hitman to kill her then husband. And I thought that people knew that. The word is out that the person that you're hiring is likely a cop. Apparently that didn't make it to this lawyer. Father involved. Let's. Let's refresh everyone's recollection about Dalia Dippolito. We'll talk about it. Let's play this hot.

[Commercial Voice 3]

Dalia Dippolito was sure that nobody could trace the crime back to her, which is why she gave Muhammad $1200 for the purchase of a revol as well as a photo of her husband at the end of the conversation. Having now been caught red handed giving a highly illegal order, it was now up to the police to set a trap for Dalia in order to duly arrest her. To gather further evidence, the police then hired another undercover agent to play the role of the commissioner. A meeting was arranged for this purpose two days later, during which Dahlia wanted to discuss the final details of the crime with the alleged professional criminal. Of course, hidden cameras were also involved in this meeting in order to convict Dahlia during the Conversation. Dahlia was also asked one last time by the alleged professional if she was really sure that she wanted her husband out of the way now.

[Cheryl Mack McCollum]

And when it's done, you know, you

[Mark Iglarsch]

have to have an option to change your mind. Even if you change your mind.

[Jonna Spilbore]

No, there's no, like,

[Cheryl Mack McCollum]

I'm positive.

[Jonna Spilbore]

Like 5,000%. Mm.

[Mark Iglarsch]

5,000% sure. John, that was a tough case.

[Jonna Spilbore]

You know, I remember that case in real time. But a couple of thoughts as soon as I wrap my mind or get over the fact that. That the person who was narrating that

[Mark Iglarsch]

clip deserves prison time for that voice.

[Jonna Spilbore]

It was just terrible, right?

[Mark Iglarsch]

Horrible.

[Jonna Spilbore]

She wasn't sure. And because he was a criminal, wanted to have him murdered.

[Mark Iglarsch]

I share your thoughts about that. That was criminal. Yeah, go on.

[Jonna Spilbore]

I want to compare. So that case, that was a really tough defense, Mark. And I know you were there for a part of it. I didn't know she was an escort, number one. And number two, if we compare this to the previous case, Gabrielle Gonzalez, I actually have a theory about her father, her father, who was a Florida lawyer. And here's my theory without knowing much at this early stage.

[Mark Iglarsch]

Okay. Love your theories. Good.

[Jonna Spilbore]

It is possible. It is possible that her lawyer dad did not know what he was funding. Here's why. She's a little 24 year old TikToker who thinks she knows everything when she knows nothing. Daddy could be spoiling his little, little baby, right? Little Susie cream cheese gets whatever she wants. So she could be saying to dad, Daddy, I need $10,000 for another Prada bag. Daddy, I need $4,000 for another pair of shoes. And daddy's like, boop, boop, boop. Here you go. Money, money, money. Let's do this. Love it and doesn't know. But in order for that to fly, he might have to testify against his own daughter.

[Mark Iglarsch]

Never. It's never going to happen. Not gonna happen. Come on. Right? Could that happen? Would it?

[Jonna Spilbore]

Maybe.

[Mark Iglarsch]

So he's going. He's going to prison. If they've got the goods on him. I mean, this is a serious case in Florida. Actually, they're going to try it in California. Right.

[Jonna Spilbore]

Where's the jurisdiction on that? Must be California. That must be where. The boy band. The boy band.

[Mark Iglarsch]

So, yeah. Yeah. But here's the question. After Dahlia, I mean, that case was big. We all saw the video.

[Commercial Voice 1]

I think we did.

[Mark Iglarsch]

I mean, I certainly saw it. Judge Kelly, who I enjoyed being in front of, she ultimately got 16 years in prison.

[Cheryl Mack McCollum]

Yeah.

[Jonna Spilbore]

Long.

[Mark Iglarsch]

She was sentenced in 2017, but that video went viral that the hitman is so often a cop. Don't we know this already?

[Jonna Spilbore]

Well, I guess you know, the heart wants what the heart wants, Mark. And if you want your husband dead and you don't want to ruin your manny to pull the trigger yourself, what else are you going to do? Yeah, she's really stupid. You got to be stupid. First of all, you got to be heartless number one. Second of all, you're really stupid to do that.

[Mark Iglarsch]

So you know, what about, what about you'd mentioned flipping the father but what about flipping the ex boyfriend or the then boyfriend who's the third person potato in this? Who right. Is involved? I think that they come to him and they say all right, time to flip against Gigi Gabriella Gonzalez and dad, her dad. What do you think about that? I think that's more likely.

[Jonna Spilbore]

I think if dad is really implicated we will see it in text messages because 24 year olds don't talk on the phone. They text, they message. Right. And we see it there. Absolutely. Maybe there'll be some code like in Donna Adelson, you know.

[Mark Iglarsch]

Yes.

[Jonna Spilbore]

That they talk.

[Mark Iglarsch]

There will be. Yes.

[Jonna Spilbore]

So.

[Cheryl Mack McCollum]

Yes.

[Jonna Spilbore]

So stay tuned for that but don't go anywhere because coming up we are speaking. I can't wait to speak to this fabulous author and crazy story. This you can't. You literally can't make this.

[Mark Iglarsch]

You can't make it up.

[Jonna Spilbore]

Cheryl McCollum. She is a crime scene investigator and author of the new book love this title. Swans don't swim in a sewer. Solving the cold case of the Flint River Killer's daughter. This is spectacular. You're not going to want to miss it. Don't go away. We will be right back.

[Commercial Voice 2]

When it's time to scale your business. It's time for Shopify. Get everything you need to grow the way you want.

[Jonna Spilbore]

Like all the way.

[Commercial Voice 2]

Stack more sales with the best converting checkout on the planet. Track your cha chings from every channel right in one spot. And turn real time reporting into big time opportunities. Take your business to a whole new level. Switch to Shopify. Start your free trial today. The GLP1 pill you've been waiting for is now on RO. Yep, it's finally here. With the same clinically proven ingredient now in a pill. And now on Roe. It's the first FDA approved GLP1 pill for weight loss at the lowest price available. That's one daily GLP1 pill for big results now on Roe. Go to Roe co listen to see if you qualify. RX only go to roe CO safety for serious side effects and boxed warning associated with GLP1s.

[Mark Iglarsch]

Welcome back to Positively Legal and with us is somebody very special. John and I have both been very eager to speak with her. Her name is Cheryl Mac McCollum. That's right. We call her Mac. Emmy award winning crime scene investigator. She's from Atlanta and she's founder and director of the Cold Case Investigative Research Institute. We are very pleased to welcome Mac. How you doing, Mac? What's up, Mac?

[Cheryl Mack McCollum]

Thank you so much for having me. Thank you.

[Mark Iglarsch]

I want to start by talking about the big case that you discuss in your book about a serial killer whose daughter gets killed. Let's talk about that.

[Cheryl Mack McCollum]

You know, Melissa's dad was a serial killer. And the way I got involved in this case is, is Melissa's mother came to a speech that I was given, and it was a black tie event. And the first thing I noticed that in my peripheral was this woman wearing Bermuda shorts, a tank top, and a straw hat. And so when I was done, I went right over to her because she was holding an 8 by 10 frame and she was kind of hugging it. So I figured she's got to be a mom of a missing or murdered child. Well, sure enough, when I got over there, she turned the picture around and said, this is my daughter Melissa. She was beheaded in Atlanta. Will you help me? And so I thought, there's no way to say no to her. And that's how I got involved with the case and subsequently got involved with the Flint River Killer. Melissa's dad.

[Mark Iglarsch]

All right, well, what is your background? Just briefly, what qualifies you to jump in there and help her?

[Cheryl Mack McCollum]

Well, I'm a crime scene investigator for a living. And I have had the Cold Case Investigative research institute since 2004, where we've taken on unsolved homicide, missing person and kidnapping cases to help law enforcement push these along. So I've worked cold cases for over 20 years.

[Mark Iglarsch]

Do you have an estimate of how many cases don't get solved? We always hear about the planes that crash, and we think, oh my gosh, there's so many planes that crash. And similarly, we hear about the stuff, solved homicides, but there's so many that go unsolved. Right. Do you have an estimate?

[Cheryl Mack McCollum]

I would say about 50% now go unsolved.

[Mark Iglarsch]

Okay. Still, even with all the cameras everywhere and the technology, really DNA, but, you know, not doing better.

[Cheryl Mack McCollum]

You look at a case like we have right now with Nancy Guthrie. We have DNA, we have the guy on camera. Still nothing. Because there's no connection to the victim, and it makes it much harder.

[Mark Iglarsch]

All right, so we appreciate that perspective. Let's talk about your book that's about a particular case. Talk about how you then got involved. You see her, and then what happens next?

[Cheryl Mack McCollum]

So she comes to my office the very next week because that evening wasn't really conducive to talk to her. And y', all, she brings this binder, and I reached for it because I want to start flipping through it as she's talking to me. She put her hands on it and said, I know you've already agreed to help me, but I've got to tell you something first. My husband is in prison for murder, and I helped him. So at that point, I mean, I've never had anybody basically tell me they assisted in any type of murder, but they were also a victim of crime. So as she's talking, the crimes of her husband were very familiar to me. And all of a sudden I was like, wait a minute. Are you telling me your husband is the Flint River Killer? And she said, you knew about him? You knew about him?

[Jonna Spilbore]

I did.

[Cheryl Mack McCollum]

With crimes. Yes, I knew of the Flint River Killer, but I did not know about her daughter. I'd never heard of Melissa's case. And there were some factors as to why. One, she was married, 21, and, you know, Atlanta Police Department told her, mama, if she wants to go missing, she can. She wants to run away from home, she can. There's no crime. We don't have any evidence of a crime. And so, you know, she wasn't even a missing person, much less a homicide victim for four years. And then a skull is discovered on Avon Avenue, and just a skull, and it's misidentified as a Caucasian male. So how does that.

[Mark Iglarsch]

Hold on. Back, back, back. How does that happen? I thought I think the 1900s, right? At least we could tell the sex.

[Cheryl Mack McCollum]

No, it's crazy. How it happened was just this perfect storm for this killer because not only is this person now misidentified, we have no missing Caucasian males that have been reported. We don't have any bodies without a head that have been reported. So again, this skull's just put on the shelf. Four months go by, and now four more trash bags are found, each containing an arm and a leg. They were just placed with the skull. They thought it was the same man. So the four years go by. Nobody's working a homicide, nobody's working a missing person. So by the time somebody realizes, hey, wait a minute, we got a missing skull right where this Mama keeps calling that her daughter went missing in the same general area. Then they take the dental records and identify her properly.

[Mark Iglarsch]

Mac, this is because.

[Jonna Spilbore]

Sorry, Mark, I want to get your opinion on something. Do you think the fact that she was the daughter of a notorious murderer had anything to do with the police's kind of lackadaisical approach to whether or not this daughter was missing?

[Cheryl Mack McCollum]

The family certainly thought so, especially before her dad even went to prison. They didn't think they were getting a whole lot of compassion. They didn't think they were getting any kind of urgency. However, once they knew what happened and just how violent this murder was, I can tell you that first lead detective, Detective Calhoun, and the last detective, Detective Shepard, they worked this case as well as anybody could have for as long as they could.

[Mark Iglarsch]

I was going to ask you, was the misidentification and the things that inured to the benefit of the killer, was that because of incompetence or lack of technology or a third option?

[Cheryl Mack McCollum]

I think it's a third option for sure. I mean, it went to the body farm in Tennessee. And I think it was just a cursory glance. All of her hair had been cut off real short. You know, maybe her cheekbones were a little bit wider. They just misidentified it. That's all there is to it. Okay.

[Jonna Spilbore]

Did you say it went to a body farm? Is that what you said it went

[Cheryl Mack McCollum]

to, the body farm in Tennessee?

[Jonna Spilbore]

A body farm?

[Mark Iglarsch]

Yeah, apparently there's a body farm place. John, don't you know about the body farm?

[Jonna Spilbore]

I don't. I've never heard the term body farm.

[Mark Iglarsch]

Old MacDonald. Mac, don't you understand the body farm? No. Okay.

[Cheryl Mack McCollum]

It is one of the great educational institutions that there is at the University of Tennessee where they study decomposition.

[Mark Iglarsch]

So tell us what you did. Okay, so you got a good detective working it. What do you do?

[Cheryl Mack McCollum]

We try to put it together. We know it's going to be circumstantial because we don't have fingerprints, we don't have DNA, we don't have an eyewitness. But there's still some things we can do. For example, a geographical profile had never been done, so we did that for the police department. We also put it out there in the media because as y' all well know, the media does help solve cases. You don't have to look any further than America's Most Wanted. And what John Walsh has been able to do. So we thought maybe there's other folks out there that had some information that had never come forward before. So we went that avenue. So we just put together a circumstantial case from the ground up. And then Atlanta took it over from there.

[Mark Iglarsch]

John and I have watched enough date lines and so have our viewers. Wasn't it just obvious who the person was who did this? Right. You go right away to the spirit, the husband.

[Cheryl Mack McCollum]

Yeah, well, you gotta look at the. Y' all know that. Y' all are both accomplished trial attorneys. You know the husband's gonna be looked at. If anybody ever walks into Yalls office as the husband of a missing or murdered woman, you're gonna tell him, of course they're looking at you. They're gonna look at your phone, they're gonna look at the home cameras. They're gonna talk to people about Yalls relationship. That was 101 stuff. But here's what we found again. He's the last one, admittedly to see her alive. He says he dropped her off at the train station because she was going to go to California to make fake IDs, because nobody in Atlanta needs a fake ID. I mean, it just didn't make any sense. Then he changed his story. And then, you know, there were other things that he did that were unusual at best. The minute she goes missing, he leaves the house, packs up every single thing, moves to South Georgia, leaves the children with his mama, tells the children, I'm your brother, grandma's your mom, and leaves. So, I mean, there's lots of things that occur that you have to look at and factor in.

[Mark Iglarsch]

But wasn't this a scenario where detectives knew, most likely it's him. But because there's great defense lawyers like Jonna, you know, who, if. If she's ever representing this guy, she's going to say, well, you rushed to judgment and you didn't look at everybody else. Wasn't this just a scenario where you were looking for other people more symbolically, you know, for. For court? But they knew y' all knew it was him, right?

[Cheryl Mack McCollum]

And here's the thing. You've got a victim that's been beheaded and dismembered whose daddy is a serial killer. You don't think that defense attorney is going to mention that every five seconds that they can. Of course Carl Patton's going to be brought into this thing. He is a built in.

[Mark Iglarsch]

Wasn't he eliminated? But wasn't he eliminated, though?

[Cheryl Mack McCollum]

Completely eliminated. No doubt about it. He's the one that kept contacting everybody. The only reason his wife came and bum rushed me at a speech is because Carl told her. He said, you go find her and see if her group will take this case on. He called and begged the detective. Once he was arrested and put in prison, he asked the detective to come meet with him and said, hey, you caught me. After 25 years, you must be pretty good. Will you please look for my daughter who's missing? And that's what that detective did. So if Carl had anything to do with it, all he had to do is keep his mouth shut, and nobody would have ever heard of her ever, Right? But he begging anybody for hell.

[Jonna Spilbore]

Didn't the husband try to point the finger at him, at Carl? Wasn't he saying, hey, it's not me. It was her own father?

[Cheryl Mack McCollum]

Only after he was dead.

[Jonna Spilbore]

Oh, interesting. So pointing at an empty chair, but

[Mark Iglarsch]

he pointed at a lot of people, right? He was ultimately arrested. The husband was arrested how many years after the murder?

[Cheryl Mack McCollum]

25.

[Mark Iglarsch]

25?

[Cheryl Mack McCollum]

25. They have grown children now. The children were one and two. They're almost 30 now.

[Mark Iglarsch]

What finally tipped the scales from we think he did it or maybe most likely he did it, to what they believe was proof beyond a reasonable doubt.

[Cheryl Mack McCollum]

Well, again, I don't want to give everything away. I want people to buy the book. But, oh, yes, it is a circumstantial case. But I promise you, the court of public opinion, if y' all just read through it and you think to yourself, okay, this, you know, young woman goes missing. He believes she's gone off to California. The minute he finds out she didn't go to California, and she's actually beheaded and dismembered and tossed in a junkyard across from where I work, he never corrected. He never went to the children and said, hey, wait a minute. Your mama didn't abandon you. She was killed. He never did that. He never course corrected any of it. He never called the police and said, hey, I know who did it. You got to look at her dad. And, you know, some people say, well, you know, maybe it was her dad setting him up. Now, y' all worked enough cases. Have you ever heard of anybody that murders somebody, tosses them across the street from where they want to set this person up and doesn't call a dime and tell the police where the body is and then waits 25 years and doesn't complete the setup? It makes no sense.

[Jonna Spilbore]

I find it illogical that the police didn't automatically start looking for foul play, that a woman left her babies. A woman just, you know, jumps on a train to California, leaving her babies. And you don't have to give this away if you don't want to. But in the book, swans don't swim in a sewer. And I want to ask you about the name as well. Do we find out why he did this and why he did. I don't know if she was killed violently and then dismembered or like there had to be. The cause of death has to be fairly interesting. Do you just get into that in the book?

[Cheryl Mack McCollum]

That's in the book.

[Jonna Spilbore]

Okay, that's in the book. And how'd you come up with the name for the book?

[Cheryl Mack McCollum]

So back in the day, I was assigned to the major case division through the crime commission, and our prosecutor that was assigned to the major case division was Nancy Grace. So we were both in our 20s, and we had a young lady that had been violently attacked. She was working as a prostitute at the time. And the judge, she didn't show up for court a couple times, and the judge said, if she's not here tomorrow, I'm dismissing victim not in court. So we had to find her. So Nancy grabs a rookie. He's driving us around to every crack house, trap house in the cut in the bluff that you could find. And finally, he's getting kind of wore out. And he said, I don't understand why we're going to all these horrible places. And Nancy turned to him and said, swans don't swim in a sewer. Where do you think we have to go to find her? We've got to talk to thieves and pimps and drug dealers if we're going to find her.

[Mark Iglarsch]

It was Nancy Grace who helped with your title.

[Jonna Spilbore]

Wow. Nancy Ism.

[Mark Iglarsch]

Wow. My dear friend Nancy. Well, listen, I want people to still buy your book, but I want this audience to buy that book. So they need to see what happened to the husband because we're talking as if he's guilty.

[Cheryl Mack McCollum]

And.

[Mark Iglarsch]

And, well, you're innocent until proven guilty in a court of law. Doesn't mean you don't feel differently. And we'll talk about that. Right? But. That's right, let's go. Let's go to SOT number six and see what happened when he went to

[Jonna Spilbore]

trial

[Cheryl Mack McCollum]

in the superior court of Fulton County, State of Georgia. The State of Georgia versus Christopher Wolfenbarger, case number 24 SC 004201, count one, we the jury, find the defendant not

[Jonna Spilbore]

guilty this 22nd day of August, 2025.

[Mark Iglarsch]

Now, Mack, Mack, you say he was the only suspect ever for you. And the jury did that after what, like 2 hours and 12 minutes of deliberation in 2024. How did that make you feel.

[Cheryl Mack McCollum]

You know, I think my son said it best. He said, mama, this is your To Kill a Mockingbird. Like, you know in your gut, you know in your heart what happened to this poor child. But, you know, the jury spoke and I accepted it. That's it.

[Mark Iglarsch]

He don't hear everything, right?

[Cheryl Mack McCollum]

Not hear everything again.

[Mark Iglarsch]

I don't want to give away everything from your body. What?

[Cheryl Mack McCollum]

They didn't hear everything, nor did they hear from everybody.

[Mark Iglarsch]

Okay, Like a priest, maybe.

[Cheryl Mack McCollum]

Like a preacher. Like a detective in another county, you know?

[Mark Iglarsch]

What do you mean by a preacher again? They're going to buy your book. They need to read it. But. But what about the preacher? What about. What would the preacher say if he was allowed to testify in the trial? What would he say?

[Cheryl Mack McCollum]

He might be able to say what Christopher told him happened on a particular day and where it happened, why it happened, when it happened, how it happened. And that would be great. The jury could have heard that. It'd be great if they could have heard from a detective who said, if you don't get away from him, he's going to kill you. It'd be great if they could have heard from Vince Velasquez when he was in the bull case squad. Who did you zero in on? I mean, it would be great if they had heard from all of these people, but they didn't call them.

[Mark Iglarsch]

What do you think the most effective argument the defense made in his trial?

[Cheryl Mack McCollum]

I think the jury could not get past the sins of the father. I don't think they were even taking it like they should. I mean, he had an open domestic violence charge. They didn't care. They didn't care. He's the last.

[Mark Iglarsch]

The husband had that. The husband, the accused had that domestically violence charge. The father, nothing but a history of killing people. I mean, what are the odds, right?

[Cheryl Mack McCollum]

Listen, I'm not making light. This is factual. Carl Patton killed people that he believed needed killing either because Dexter, family member.

[Mark Iglarsch]

Sounds like Dexter. You ever watch Dexter?

[Cheryl Mack McCollum]

You know, I, for a long time thought he's associated with the Dixie Mafia. He denied it all along through our relationship. And, you know, I was never able to meet with him in person. The Department of Corrections wouldn't allow it. But we wrote letters for years, and anytime he could procure a cell phone, we had good conversations. But I had somebody that not only could fill in some victimology, I had somebody that could fill in suspectology. And that was really rare. And it was a gift to me for this whole type of investigation where you've got somebody that's telling you I killed this way, this person killed that way. And it's a world apart. And he's not wrong.

[Mark Iglarsch]

Who did he kill? What was his general mo? The father, you know, killed what, five, six people or something? How many people he killed?

[Cheryl Mack McCollum]

He killed five people. He was arrested for four and ended up he went ahead and confessed to a fifth one they didn't even know anything about. But he shot people. I mean, that was his mo. This person did not shoot the victim and then chopped them up, put them in trash bags, and then threw them in a junkyard. That's a completely different killer.

[Mark Iglarsch]

Well, jurors thought it's possible. You know, maybe shooting just didn't do it for him enough. Right. Something. Jurors are weird like that. You know, no forensic evidence. I'm guessing no video, no busload of nuns who saw him, you know, hack her head off. Right. I mean, I don't know what they're waiting for, you know?

[Cheryl Mack McCollum]

Yep. We got no forensics, no ear witness, no eyewitness. It was circumstantial, but, you know, most.

[Jonna Spilbore]

Did the defendant testify in this case?

[Cheryl Mack McCollum]

No, he did not. He showed up in a wheelchair.

[Jonna Spilbore]

Oh, neck brace, wheelchair. Yeah. Real sympathetic.

[Mark Iglarsch]

Mac, we're curious. John and I are headed to CrimeCon this coming weekend in Vegas. You gonna be there?

[Cheryl Mack McCollum]

I will see you there.

[Mark Iglarsch]

Oh, that is so cool. We'll get to hear that beautiful. We'll hear that beautiful British accent in person. That's fabulous. Listen, I wanna read your book. How do we get it?

[Cheryl Mack McCollum]

It's on Amazon, Barnes and Noble, Walmart, Target, anywhere you buy your books. It's amaz there.

[Mark Iglarsch]

Fantastic. Cheryl, thank you so much for spending time with us. We are extremely, extremely grateful.

[Cheryl Mack McCollum]

Absolutely. I can't wait to see you.

[Mark Iglarsch]

Looking forward to it. All right, viewers, stick around. We have some fun stuff coming. In the final block, John and I go off the record, and we're going to see a movie clip that I think you may be familiar with. And we'll give you our feedback. Stay tuned.

[Kiana (Shopify Ad Voice)]

I'm Kiana, and I leveled up my business with Shopify. Once I figured out that Shopify was a thing, I never turned back. I can create a site with my eyes closed. Shopify thinks ahead of us, you know, and it thinks about the customer more than anything. Every day I'm thinking about some other new business, but Shopify is doing it to me because it's so easy to use. It's like, I can't stop. I'm addicted. Start your free [e-mail] com.

[Commercial Voice 2]

The GLP1 pill you've been waiting for is now on row. Yep, it's finally here. With the same clinically proven ingredient now in a pill. And now on Roe. It's the first FDA approved GLP1 pill for weight loss at the lowest price available. That's one daily GLP1 pill for big results now on RO go to roe.co. listen to see if you qualify. RX only go to Roe Co Safety for serious side effects and boxed warning associated with GLP1s.

[Jonna Spilbore]

Welcome back to Positively Legal. It's time now for Mark and I to go off the record. But before we get to that, can you handle the truth, Mark?

[Mark Iglarsch]

Oh, I can't. I love. I love this movie. I love it. Set it. Set it up. Jonna. Come on. What do we got here?

[Jonna Spilbore]

Okay, so we know it's the most famous scene in A Few Good Men, right?

[Mark Iglarsch]

Yes.

[Jonna Spilbore]

Jack Nicholas is on the stand. He's getting cross examined by Tom Cruise. And Tom Cruise asks the question, pointed question. And Jack Nicholson decides, this is it. Let's roll the tape.

[Mark Iglarsch]

Right. Real realistic scene that happens every day in court.

[Jonna Spilbore]

Yeah, all the time. Didn't he? Because that's what you told Lieutenant Kendrick to do.

[Commercial Voice 1]

Object when it went bad, you cut these guys loose. Your Honor. You have mor inside a bony trans. Your Honor. You doctored the logbook. Consider yourself in contempt. Colonel Jessup, did you order the Code Red? You don't have to answer that question. I'll answer the question. You want answers? I think I'm entitled. You want answers? I want the truth. You can't handle the truth. Son, we live in a world that has walls. And those walls have to be guarded by men with guns. Who's gonna do it?

[Mark Iglarsch]

You? You?

[Commercial Voice 1]

Lieutenant Weinberg? I have a greater responsibility than you can possibly fathom. You weep for Santiago and you curse the Marines. You have that luxury. You have the luxury of not knowing what I know. That Santiago's death, while tragic, probably saved lives. And my existence, while grotesque and incomprehensible to you, saves lives. You don't want the truth because deep down in places you don't talk about at parties, you want me on that wall. You need me on that wall. We use words like honor, code, loyalty. We use these words as the backbone of a life spent defending something. You use them as a punchline. I have neither the time nor the inclination to explain myself to a man who rises and sleeps under the blanket of the very freedom that I provide and then questions the manner in which I provide it. I would rather you just said thank you and went on your way. Otherwise, I suggest you pick up a weapon and stand a post. Either way, I don't give a damn what you think you are entitled to.

[Mark Iglarsch]

Did you order the Code Red?

[Commercial Voice 1]

I did the job. Did you order the Code Red? You're goddamn right I did.

[Mark Iglarsch]

Oh, I mean, I love it for movie, but not for real life. Jona, please. Let me explain what I'm talking about. Okay? First of all, he didn't know what was going to happen. Now, in his defense, I'm talking about the, you know, Mission Impossible guy. You know, I understand why he did it. I mean, he's a Hail Mary and he thought, you know, his gut told him it would work. But that's not what we do. Have you ever done anything like that in court where you really do not know how it's going to go? One way you're just dead in the water, the other way, it's heaven sent. Have you ever done anything like that, John?

[Jonna Spilbore]

You know, I have a time or two, but it's rare. Why? Because we are programmed not to ask a question that we don't know the answer to. For good reason. For good reason. Military. Military trials are a little bit. But, yeah, in real life that would happen. But, you know, Jack Nicholson is so good. And Tom Cruise is fantastic, too, but he's so good in that scene. Like, my mind goes to. Okay, imagine being like his wife or whatever when he's rehearsing for this movie and you, like, wake up one Sunday morning and you're like, hey, Jack, you want some coffee? And he's like, you can't handle the coffee. It was a captain, right, Jean? You're like, oh, okay.

[Cheryl Mack McCollum]

But I didn't.

[Mark Iglarsch]

Not easy. Listen, my kids say it's not easy. Sometimes I cross examine them so effectively that they can't. They can't hide anything. Brutal. All right, let's. Let's go off the record. I'm ready to go off the record. You want to go first or should I? My rant's just short and it's off the cuff. What do you want to do?

[Jonna Spilbore]

Why don't you go first? Because you might have to mute mine in the children's room. So you go first.

[Mark Iglarsch]

Okay. Look, it's just, you know, we talked about the shooter. Another shooter. Another potential shooter at the White House, and we're almost like, going, oh, another one. And a lot of us aren't even checking the details because it's becoming so routine, but it's serious. We've got an epidemic. We've got a problem here. Maybe someone's going to be successful soon. It's scary. This shouldn't happen. So, again, can anything be done? I was reading through the facts of this one and the common thread now seems to be a lot of bullying, certainly mental illness. And obviously, if you see anybody with mental illness who has a tendency to look like they're going to be violent, then do something about it. Unfortunately, a lot of times there are no warning signs, but if there are, do something about it. That's the first thing. If you see something, say something. I'm here at the airport. That's what they tell us to do. If you see somebody acting a bit bizarre, coupled with, you know, buying weapons and. Or talking about how, you know, the free world should come to an end, you probably need to take action. I'm not saying that's what happened in this case, but there are signs. But the other thing, it's not talked about as much is bullying. Yeah, bullying. A lot of us say, well, that's what we grew up with. There were bullies and we just dealt with it. Right? Nowadays you're seeing mental illness coupled with bullying equals a combustible situation where if somebody does have negative thoughts about our leader or about our government, they do crazy things. So I would say to parents, teachers, whoever, in any way, if there's a way to step up our game and stop this bullying for many reasons, not just because they may wind up killing the leader of our wonderful land, but because bullying is bad and wrong and it needs to stop. So that's my rant. Let's do something about it.

[Jonna Spilbore]

Bravo, Mark, Bravo. Nice rant. You're doing a fabulous job locked in the children's room at LaGuardia Airport today.

[Mark Iglarsch]

Thank you.

[Jonna Spilbore]

I must add, I could rant about

[Mark Iglarsch]

that, but nobody cares.

[Jonna Spilbore]

Right, Next week.

[Mark Iglarsch]

What are you upset about today, John? I want to hear your rent. I look forward to it every week.

[Jonna Spilbore]

Yeah, Mark, I do have something to complain about. Hold on to your hat. I have fabulous news for all my fellow semi mature heterosexual women out there. I cannot believe this day has finally come, for we have suffered far too long. Ladies, stay with me here. How often do we get up, make the coffee, feed the dog, put the kids on the bus and then head out into the world to tackle all the challenges our respective careers bring. When, lo and behold, we come in contact with a random man and then instantly think, I wonder how big his penis is. Up to now, in order to get the answer to that burning question, without visual inspection of the merchandise, we girls would have to examine the size of a man's hands and or feet to do some basic math by calculating how much empty space exists in the pointy toe box portion of his Ferragamos. I mean, what was the point of suffering through 8th grade algebra if not to use it two decades later when mentally measuring the size of a man's junk by staring at his thick thumbs and shoes? Am I right, girls? Our prayers have been answered, ladies, thanks to a concept called hung smiling. It's the latest craze on social media and claims you can tell the size of a man's manhood by the way he smiles. According to the TikTok, a hung smile is a, quote, sly, flirty and confident grin that signals a man knows just how well endowed he is. And now we know too. Easy as that. I mean, sure, there is zero scientific proof or medical evidence for this phenomenon, but who cares? All this time, we women went through life believing a man's face was just a face. Now we know there is much, much more to learn about a man based on the way his lips curl ever so slightly above his bicuspids. My hope is this is just the beginning because there are a few other facts I would like to know about random male strangers without getting to know them. Aside from, hey, how big is your package? Like, does he leave every cabinet door open all the time? Maybe the way he blinks can speak to that. Or does he put the toilet seat down? Perhaps the answer lies in in the number of his nose hairs. Notably, the examples of men with hung smiles are all Hollywood heartthrobs. Hugh Jackman, David Cornswett, Alexander Skarsgard, to name a few. Leaving me to wonder if this whole hung smile thing is less about the size of a man's penis and more about the size of his bank account. If we're going to embrace junk science, pun intended, let's focus on the one measurement of a man that's actually easy to verify his net worth. Because men, unlike that beer belly, no woman has ever complained about a fat bank account. Let that flip your lip, why don't you

[Mark Iglarsch]

Jonna? Two peas in there. That was very nice. And look how much I'm smiling. I'm gonna smile a lot more on this show, right? You're gonna got me smiling, girl.

[Jonna Spilbore]

I knew you wouldn't let me down.

[Cheryl Mack McCollum]

You wouldn't disappoint.

[Mark Iglarsch]

No. Good job. Very nice.

[Jonna Spilbore]

Yep. Who's saying goodbye, you or me?

[Mark Iglarsch]

Well, first, I always like to end it with a little gratitude. I'm grateful for the last breath I took. What are you grateful for?

[Jonna Spilbore]

You know, I'm grateful because you managed to show up today for from an airport. I don't know if I would have had the gumption and the guts to do that. So I'm grateful for you today, Mark.

[Mark Iglarsch]

And I'm grateful for you always. And for the wonderful staff here at Positively Legal. You guys are great. Thank you so much. So grateful. All right, take this thing home, Donna.

[Jonna Spilbore]

All right, let's say thank you to Cheryl Mack McCollum, the author of Swans Don't Swim in a Sewer. And to of course, my fabulous co host Mark Iglarsch. And thank you all for joining us. We're gonna see you at Crimecon in Las Vegas this weekend, so stop by the MK True Crime booth and say hello.

[Cheryl Mack McCollum]

Have a great week.

[Commercial Voice 1]

You guys,

[Commercial Voice 3]

there's only one Ozempic. Hello, I'm Ozempic and I'm other GLP1s. Kinda like him. Ozempic.

[Mark Iglarsch]

You redid your jingle?

[Commercial Voice 3]

Ah, thanks for noticing. Catchy, right?

[Mark Iglarsch]

No.

[Commercial Voice 3]

Okay then. Well ask your doctor about which FDA approved uses of me. The Ozempic pen may be right for you. Call 1-833-OZEMPIC or visit ozempic.com to view the medication guide and learn more about Ozempic. Semaglutide injection, 2 milligrams. Only Novo Nordisk makes FDA approved Ozempic. There's only one Ozempic. I told you it was catchy.

[Kiana (Shopify Ad Voice)]

I'm Kiana and I leveled up my business with Shopify. Once I figured out that Shopify was a thing, I never turned back. I can create a site with my eyes closed. Shopify thinks ahead of know and it thinks about the customer more than anything. Every day I'm thinking about some other new business, but Shopify is doing it to me because it's so easy to use. It's like I can't stop. I'm addicted. Start your free trial at Shopify. Com.