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MK True Crime
Why Timothy Busfield Was Released, Real Estate Tycoons’ Trafficking Trial Begins, and the “Au Pair” Murder Case, with Heather McDonald
00:52:09
MK True Crime hosts Matt Murphy and Mark Geragos join the show to discuss the federal trial where high-profile real estate agent brothers Oren, Tal, and Alon Alexander are charged with running a sex-trafficking scheme for more than a decade, the complexities of date rape cases, why jury selection will be so important in this case, comedian and host of hit podcasts “Juicy Scoop” and “Juicy Crimes”, Heather McDonald, joins Matt and Mark to discuss Timothy Busfield’s release ahead of his sex-abuse trial, how state politics may play a role in this case on the heels of New Mexico’s Rust case with Alec Baldwin, the wild “Au Pair” murder trial in Virginia happening now, if the defendant Brendan Baldwin has a chance, a look back at the Camden Nicholson case and its parallels to the Nick Reiner case, and more. Matt Murphy: https://www.mattmurphylaw.com Mark Geragos: https://geragos.com Heather McDonald: https://heathermcdonald.net Veracity Selfcare: Visit https://VeracitySelfCare.com &...
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- [00:00]
Heather McDonald
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Heather McDonald
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- [01:06]
Matt Murphy
Welcome to MK True Crime. I'm Matt Murphy. I'm a former homicide prosecutor and author of the Book of Murder. Here's what's on the docket today. The Alexander brothers federal sex trafficking trial started this week. We will bring you all the latest. And comedian and host of the hit podcast Juicy Scoop I my friend Heather McDonald joins us later to discuss the Timothy Busfield release and how the crazy au pair murder trial is progressing. I'm joined today by my co host and friend Mark Garagos, criminal defense attorney extraordinaire. Mark, let's start with the case I think you're familiar with. This is the Alexander brothers jury selection is happening this week in their sex trafficking trial. Why don't you explain the backstory to this case for the audience. And once again, as usual, you are in a unique position to know about this one.
- [01:54]
Mark Garagos
Well, it seems like recently every case in the Southern District, specifically if it involves sex trafficking, has a brilliant, brilliant young lawyer who obviously took after her grandfather.
- [02:09]
Matt Murphy
If you do say so yourself.
- [02:11]
Mark Garagos
If I do say so myself. And that would be my daughter, Teddy Garrigus who's trying this case. And Teddy is in, last I heard, because I'm not speaking with her because I'm in trial on the other coast. But I they're in the middle of jury selection. The Alexander brothers were staples up in the Hamptons for many years in the real estate market have had meteoric rise and success. And on his way out the door, the previous Southern district head of The Southern District U.S. attorney there, Damian Williams, indicted Eric Adams, indicted P. Diddy and indicted the Alexander brothers. So we're anxious, I'm anxious specifically to see how it unfolds. They're charged with a lot of things regarding sex trafficking. It's kind of the last hangover case from the Me Too era.
- [03:10]
Matt Murphy
Yeah. It's an interesting thing, isn't it? This is for the viewer. This case falls into a category that would be loosely coined acquaintance rape or date rape situations. And these are. These are a subset of sexual assault prosecutions that are pretty tough. We saw that in the Diddy case, the sex trafficking, and Mark and I both did a bunch of commentary on that.
- [03:36]
Mark Garagos
Right.
- [03:37]
Matt Murphy
And we saw eye to eye on that one for sure. That was. It was a bit of a reach. The jury didn't like it. And what's your call? All biased aside, what do you think.
- [03:49]
Mark Garagos
About my read on this is. And one of the things I find and I. Matt, you have prosecuted. I have defended so many of these cases that involve what I always call instead of Monday morning quarterbacking, which is what we do Monday morning, regret. And I can't tell you the number of cases I've had where somebody has claimed they were drinking. It always involves alcohol, always involves a later claim, at least in my experience, that I must have been drugged. Almost inevitably, there's no forensic toxicology that supports that. And you know, you're the prosecutor, you'll tell me that's because the traditional drugs metabolize quickly. I will tell you as the defense lawyer, it's because sometimes somebody has drank too much or doesn't remember how much they drank and has a lot of regret when they wake up. And I find these cases, especially when they didn't go to the police first and they went to a civil lawyer first, that to me is a red flag.
- [04:59]
Matt Murphy
Yeah. So what you're talking about there, of course, is ghb, also known as the date rape drug, but it's also a party drug. Who would want to use that for fun? I have no idea. Because basically it puts you to sleep and you don't remember anything. But it has a metabolic half life of 40 minutes, which essentially means in the cases where it actually is used as a tool to effectuate sexual assault, the first time your victim pees, it's out of their system and it's very, very difficult to detect but every once in a while, they'll come up with that, claiming it's rare and there'll be a search warrant served and they'll find some in the possession of the accused. And that definitely puts a different, I don't know, prosecutorial edge to those because then you have some corroboration to it. But more often than not, you know.
- [05:53]
Mark Garagos
It'S so funny you say that because I've had both of those situations. I've had the situation where they, they do the test on the complainant and there's nothing, it's a negative, nothing detected. And then they do a search warrant and lo and behold to what you say, somebody's got possession of it. So then there becomes the question, well, is this a party drug or whatever? ABC's David Muir, the most trusted anchor in America. The most watched anchor in America. Thank you for making World News Tonight with David Muir the number, number one newscast in America. Most trusted, most watched. David Muir on abc. Psoriatic arthritis symptoms can be unpredictable. I had joint pain and I couldn't move like I used to. I needed relief.
- [06:43]
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- [06:45]
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- [07:33]
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- [08:15]
Mark Garagos
One of the most compelling pieces of evidence in these kinds of cases that I've ever seen is a very enterprising detective. Went and got video camera of the bar, and you saw the woman put a napkin over the glass and go to the restroom. You saw the guy lift up the napkin and do like one of these. And that was pretty compelling evidence. That's where I'd say, dude, you need to let me explore a plea.
- [08:44]
Matt Murphy
Yeah, right. As in, you better take a plea or you're going to go to prison for eight years for that one.
- [08:50]
Mark Garagos
A very long time.
- [08:51]
Matt Murphy
Yeah, and deservedly so on those.
- [08:53]
Mark Garagos
My feeling is, dude, if you don't have game, why are you. You have to go drug somebody. I mean, what the hell? I don't.
- [08:59]
Matt Murphy
Just in the man. In the man world, forget about the law. That is. That is what we would call weak sauce. Any guy that sucks that bad at dialogue that he's got to. He's got to disable somebody in order to upset them, but there are people that get off on that, too. That's what. That's what all the allegations were against Bill Cosby. That was his thing. His kink was having sex. Allegedly. Well, I guess he was convicted, so don't have to say that anymore, but with unconscious people. And as you and I both know, you know, my first week in sexual assault, Mark, by the time I got finished reading my caseload, I thought there was nothing left in the world of depravity. And then after four years, when I rotated into homicide, I realized I'd only scratched the surface. So whatever it is, somebody gets off on it. And for some people.
- [09:43]
Mark Garagos
Oh, you know, that reminds me of a story when I first met you there. I forget her name. She was in her unit, and I saw her at the north court in Orange county, and there was a guy they wheeled in in a wheelchair, and he was a repeat offender. And I said, he.
- [10:01]
Matt Murphy
Yeah, do you remember this Rebecca Heinlein?
- [10:04]
Mark Garagos
Exactly. And he had been castrated. And I was giving her grief. I said, well, now you're prosecuting him because he'd been castrated. She goes, now he uses his tongue.
- [10:16]
Matt Murphy
Right.
- [10:16]
Mark Garagos
Do you remember this case?
- [10:17]
Matt Murphy
Oh, this. This guy, he was in. He was in five. I remember being in court when they wheeled him in there. And so my first week in sexual assault, there's a guy named Ted Burnett. I know you crossed paths with him at some point.
- [10:28]
Mark Garagos
Absolutely.
- [10:29]
Matt Murphy
Ted was a great guy, and he was a thinker, you know, he was. He would always try to figure it out. So Ted was finishing his first tour in Sexual assault right when I was starting, and he's a great guy. And I went in and I'm like, hey, Ted, I know you've thought about this, like, what drives these guys? Like, you know, 80% sexual abuse of children. And these are genuine pedophiles, most of them. And some are, right.
- [10:50]
Mark Garagos
I mean, just inveterate.
- [10:55]
Matt Murphy
Everything. Everything. Bad cartoon characters of themselves. These were like. These were just the. The worst of the worst. Right? And he. And he looked at me and Ted had that gravelly voice. And I don't do a very good Ted Burnett impression, but he goes, oh, you're talking about the green worms. He goes, the green worms make them do it. Nobody knows how the green worms get in. Nobody knows how to get the green worms, how to get the green worms out. But as long as they continue to draw breath, the green worms in their brain are going to make them want to continue to molest little kids. And that's the best explanation I've ever heard. And it's true.
- [11:31]
Mark Garagos
Every time I hear RFK talk about the worm in his brain, I think about that and I think about that story and that case, and it's unbelievable. I mean, there's no other explanation, because I'm telling you, somebody was actually castrated and still could not get through this.
- [11:52]
Matt Murphy
Yeah. Yeah. And I mean, that's just once they cross the Rubicon, a lot of these guys. But those are. Those cases, in a way, are a lot easier because you get into, you know, a dedicated sexual assault detective serves and warrant, you get into the computer, especially in modern day, almost 100% of the time, you're gonna have child pornography in there or something that. That corroborates the claim. Another thing I like that I. That I think is a lot cleaner as a prosecutor is when you got another kid who independently reported who didn't hear about or know about the other kid. Right. Like, those are. Those are clean prosecutions. The jury tend to really sympathize with those kids. Those are the good ones. Date rape cases are a lot. It's a different ballgame when you're talking about adult women who don't immediately go to the police. And we understand it's very. It's nuanced, Right. There's a lot of reasons why somebody wouldn't want to do that. And especially if they're. If they're in the social scene or they're in the real estate market like these guys, you can see certainly some objective reasons why women, out of embarrassment or whatever, who were legitimate victims wouldn't want to report. On the other hand, I spent a couple summers, Mark, as an LA kid out in the Hamptons the last two years, and it is a fricking trip. You got all these people with millions of dollars. You got all these yachts. It is, yeah, you know, it's part.
- [13:13]
Mark Garagos
Of the amount of the amount of money spent in the Hamptons and that, that bro crowd that is there and the women that go there and this idea that somehow there is no, you know. Oh, I, I'm shocked. I'm shocked. You really got to see it to understand the. What happens. I mean, it's a different world.
- [13:42]
Matt Murphy
It is, it is a different world. And I mean, on the, on the other side, you know, I lived in a fraternity house for four years and the guys in my, in my fraternity, with one or two exceptions, very, very small, 200 guys, you know, that I shared that house with over the course of four years. It was a great bunch. However, there also is that party bro guy, the guy that you're talking about that, that will, you know that people have to put napkins on their drinks. There is that predatory asshole. And that's a real thing. And I'm going to be interested to see what happens on this one. I don't know about the sex trafficking. I think they're going to run into the same problem in the Alexander case as they did in Diddy, frankly, at least as far as the sex trafficking charges go. But there's a lot of different angles on this one. And I think like a lot of them, it boils down to, I think, the credibility and a lot of times in cases like this, the likability of the, of the victims, whether there's corroboration to it, I don't know. What's, what's your call on this one? What do you think?
- [14:40]
Mark Garagos
You know, I always said with Sean's case that I thought that the sex trafficking and specifically the rico, you and I talked about this endlessly, was a bridge too far. And I always prognosticated a hung jury. And sure enough, they were hung for a minute and then they, they came back not guilty. But this, this has kind of the earmarks of a hung to me. I, and you know, they're doing jury selection right now, so we won't know until we see what the jury looks like. I mean, as you know and I've said, and I'm a broken record case, the case is what are lost in jury selection.
- [15:17]
Matt Murphy
Yeah, well, your daughter did a great job on Diddy. So they, I think they got the right. They got the right counsel for him.
- [15:22]
Mark Garagos
Yeah, I tease her. You know, the father teasing his daughter about being the sex queen. So I'll leave it at that.
- [15:31]
Matt Murphy
So next we're going to dig into the crazy au pair murder trial. I actually don't know how to pronounce that au pair. You can tell I don't have kids. That's happening this week. And the Timothy Busfield release from On Bail with comedian and host of the Juicy Scoop podcast, our friend Heather McDonald. Stay tuned, everybody.
- [15:51]
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- [16:20]
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- [16:52]
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- [17:57]
Matt Murphy
Welcome back to MK. True crime actor Timothy Busfield was released from custody this week while he awaits trial for sex abuse charges. And IRS agent Brendan Banfield is on trial for the murder of his wife and a man he allegedly tried to frame for the crime. Comedian and host of Juicy Scoop podcast and Juicy Scooper to the stars, Heather McDonald, my dear friend, you've got Harvey Levin. Mark, I'm laying claim to Heather McDonald. You can have him as your buddy. I have the fabulous and glamorous Heather McDonald. She is my friend. I know you guys go way back. I don't care.
- [18:38]
Mark Garagos
Heather and I predate you, I think. Don't let Heather decide that. So I will tell you one thing, speaking of Megyn Kelly, that admit that I saw your face and called you out in real time before he had even surrendered on this case.
- [18:54]
Matt Murphy
Yeah, we should, we should probably make you know that. So, Heather, Mark and I were on Megyn Kelly's podcast last Monday and we were talking about Buzzfield and we were going through the facts, what we knew then. And, you know, we're going through it. And Meghan, Meghan is so nice and she gives us this platform. And Mark and I, we both love her and we're going through it. And Mark, I've known for years and years, calls me out at the end and goes, what Matt's trying to say is that he would not file this and he didn't want to say it. And he was, he was absolutely right. And then everything that's come forward since you were just talking about the parents for the viewers that haven't seen that, Heather, why don't you walk us through what we learned about the parents of these boys that are making this accusation against Timothy Busfield.
- [19:39]
Heather McDonald
Well, it's, you know, the, the father was an attorney. He's been disbarred. He admitted to being guilty for the crime, which involved some type of mortgage fraud. So, so the crimes that he's been convicted of were fraudulent, so lying. Then she is also with some type of professional person, but she also sold a Bentley to someone and then didn't give them the pink slip and then had the car repossessed and then sold to someone else. So then that person was suing her. So it's, it's a lot of grifter shady, white collar ish crime, which, you know, sue happy people that are just knowledgeable enough to be dangerous kind of a thing, is the feeling I get about the parents, which is disturbing.
- [20:34]
Mark Garagos
And boy, I'll tell you. Heather, did you listen to the tapes that his lawyer played of the interviews of the accusers in the court proceedings?
- [20:46]
Heather McDonald
I did. Where they both said that didn't happen. Now, now I'm going to go on the other side of it a little bit because, you know, with. When children and adults are victims of this type of thing, you oftentimes do deny it at first. You're scared you're doing what the perpetrator told you to do. Don't tell. Don't tell. So I also think that just because there's a recording where they deny that it happened once, what doesn't mean that they told someone else prior, like their parent or their teacher or something that it did. And then when they're faced with it, they're so nervous that they aren't telling the truth then. So I think that's, you know, it doesn't help that the parents are like this. It doesn't help that they were twins playing a part of one child. When you need twins to play young children because their hours of working are so limited. So that's why twins work a lot. Children's agents want identical twins, but once the child, the role got to a certain age, they might have just realized it's nothing that the twins did wrong, but they just need one other. They just need one kid now. Or the twins might look too old because the kid they were playing someone younger.
- [22:09]
Mark Garagos
Such a good point.
- [22:11]
Heather McDonald
So, so that just happens in life, but often. But people can get pissed, you know, like no one wants to not have a role. And so I, I feel it. No matter how shady the parents are, I feel it's very hard to convince two children to lie as well. To say this awful thing happened all because you're hoping to screw over this guy that didn't ask your kids to be, you know, in the third season. It's not that much money. We're talking about this. He wasn't the lead in a sitcom from, you know, so that I. So that's, that's where you see both sides. Yes, they're shady and, but also, I don't, I think it's hard to believe that you'd make kids lie about something like this.
- [22:58]
Mark Garagos
So, you know, you put that against the backdrop of a da, a district attorney who's running for statewide office. What better way to increase your profile than to file a case like this. Which by the way, some of the biggest flameouts in the last 10 years of sexual, sexual predator prosecutions have been DAs who are running for office. And then you've got as you kind of adroitly layered in here, you've got the parents who by the way are the ones who are the backstop for the kids and they've got their own issues. I think when you put all those together, I still return to what I said and I know it's unfair because you're not looking at him right now, but if you had seen Matt Murphy's face last week on Megyn Kelly, it spoke volumes. The Matt Murphy I A millionaires would have filed this case.
- [23:49]
Matt Murphy
You know, these things just boil down to, to the corroboration. What corroboration do you have to the claims and when you're talking about if the, if, if that accusation turns out to be true, that she really did make a comment like I'm going to.
- [24:02]
Heather McDonald
Get revenge, then the mother, you mean the mother.
- [24:05]
Matt Murphy
The mother. Then it falls into this category that, that you see sadly in the modern world a ton. And that is it. It's kind of like one of these custody disputes over kids. When you have little kids you see that unfortunately all the time when there's an accusation of sexual misconduct made by one parent against another and there's just, there's one after another after another and detectives know that, judges know that. So I, I, I don't know. This is a, this is a tough one. My, my sympathies on an emotional level always go towards a little kid. But on a pragmatic, mercenary level, you've got these other allegations from California. 16 year old, a 17 year old and you got a 28 year old woman. And I don't think, Mark, I don't know what your thoughts are on this, but I got a feeling that when the defense gets up and argues in California we call it 1108 evidence. I don't think that's coming in. I don't think in no, I don't.
- [25:04]
Mark Garagos
Think so at all. They use it all.
- [25:06]
Matt Murphy
They use the old 403B from, we all learn in law school from federal court, which is no propensity evidence. Heather, the way it works is under traditional law you can't let in prior bad acts like bad character. Evidence is inadmissible. And they've carved out a lot of states. California kind of led the way on this. Surprisingly that allows you in sex crimes. They treat sex Crimes differently, as they should. And if you got prior accusations, they come in. New Mexico doesn't have that. And I got a feeling that. And so that's some of the most compelling evidence against them. I think all of that is to be ruled out.
- [25:40]
Mark Garagos
Yeah, that's why Harvey Weinstein in New York, they call it Molineaux evidence. That's why his conviction got reversed. And he's being tried for the 800th time in New York. Precisely because the highest court in New York said you can't just. You can't make up in quantity what you lack in quality, so to speak.
- [26:01]
Matt Murphy
Yeah. And he does not look good in those other cases, Heather, I don't.
- [26:03]
Heather McDonald
Have you looked at those about Timothy Busfield? Which way? His previous with the girls? Yeah, I mean, I just saw that, you know, one, one. It seems like they, they were suing him. And then he sued for something. Something happened where it was like he. He fought back the accusation and then they settled. And he, he settled out at 150.
- [26:29]
Matt Murphy
Well, yeah, he had a. I think it was. He, They. I don't know if it was disclosed, whatever he settled for. But he had to pay the law firm. He lost the defamation suit and had to pay them $150,000 in costs. So he actually lost that. So there's some pretty significant process. I think in at least two of those three other cases, maybe there was a fourth. But I don't know what's. And I agree with everything you said, Heather. When kids come forward, they. It evolves over time. That's not uncommon. But they were pretty adamant in the initial refusal. I don't know. I don't know where. I don't know where this goes.
- [27:03]
Heather McDonald
I think, I think also now, was it in New Mexico? Because that's where the cleaning lady was filmed.
- [27:09]
Mark Garagos
Right? Exactly. And guess, guess. The last high profile prosecution.
- [27:14]
Heather McDonald
Well, I was just gonna. I was gonna bring that up. Do you think there's some type of, you know, we gotta get. We. We failed the last Hollywood situation, you know, with. What was it about Baldwin, the Alec Baldwin thing. So do you think that's like, we're gonna. We gotta, we gotta get this one?
- [27:34]
Mark Garagos
It's. If you're doing a work, you're doing a word association, it's the immediate thing that comes to mind for me. It's like, you know, and you also had somebody there who was running for office. In his situation, you had a special counsel appointed. And in this case, you don't have that element. But I'm always leery of Somebody who's running for office, and they're going to come. And by the way, the proof of this, to my mind, is you went from no bail to no bail. That can explain that.
- [28:06]
Matt Murphy
Yeah, that's. There are two parts about that that was in the bail hearing today. I actually think it was the right thing for him to release him on this because at 68 years old, there's no priors, there's no indication that he's going to. It really is a standalone thing because the other cases are really dissimilar. I'm surprised they kept him in as long as they did. But I think that a real kind of a bellwether to where this is going when the comments of the judge, when he made that specific comment, there's no evidence of a systematic pattern of abuse or whatever the language he was, that I think is a foreshadowing of where that evidentiary ruling is going, which means the rest of that stuff is going to be excluded, which means the prosecution is. I think at the end of the day, they're going to be left with these two little boys. And if I'm the defense lawyer on that, and I don't think this isn't a case that I would probably ever take, but if I'm the defense lawyer on that, I'm doing everything I can to get mom on the stand in some way so that I can rip her with her shady past. And the same thing with the dad, because if you can show that she's a grifter or a fraudster, the jury is not going to like that. And, yeah, I'm not sure where this one lands.
- [29:17]
Heather McDonald
I have kind of a sensitive question to ask about this. So what I saw was. And maybe they didn't reveal it all, but it seems like whatever the accusations are, are touching. Okay, so there isn't penetration, there isn't oral copulation. But in the law, does it. Does one hold more than the other in the sense that, like, well, this wasn't that bad, so maybe that's why you wouldn't want to prosecute it. Or even if it was true, it's not that bad. Obviously, all of it could be horrifically traumatic for a child. But does that come into play when you figure out how to prosecute these things?
- [30:02]
Matt Murphy
The tough part is the intent. So a completed child molest or 288 in California is any physical touching. So if you touch a pinky toe and the child molester, that's what he's into. That's a completed child molest in Fact, in the era of online sex chats and all that kind of stuff, I prosecuted guys that never even met their victim, that were having them touch themselves and that. That is considered a completed sex act under 288 of the California penal code. So. Great question. I, Yeah, I. This case is, this case is a tough one for the prosecution, I think.
- [30:39]
Heather McDonald
I think it's also, I think it's, I think it's also really interesting when there's two, like with kids. You know, I kind of thought it helped their case, the victims, that they have each other kind of. But then I'm like, I don't know, you know, does that make it easier to, I don't know, stick to a story that might not be true? What do you guys think this is?
- [31:04]
Matt Murphy
Hang on. This is what's so funny. I've been on Heather's show so many times and this is the way it goes. She always asks the best questions. I'm supposed to be the host today. And she's, she's digging up all the, all the good stuff.
- [31:18]
Mark Garagos
By the way, Matt, she also, without watching the A block, went right to your point. So I know.
- [31:23]
Matt Murphy
You know what else? She's. She. And she looks a lot better than both of us, Mark, so.
- [31:27]
Mark Garagos
Right.
- [31:28]
Heather McDonald
Thank you.
- [31:28]
Matt Murphy
Anyway, I'm sorry, I.
- [31:32]
Heather McDonald
So Matt, like having two victims, having.
- [31:34]
Mark Garagos
Siblings victims, from a prosecutor's standpoint, he can echo it. He already said it. Oh, the two makes it. If they are unrel. Related, that is to Matt's mind, from a prosecutor, that is much. I'll tell you, from a defense lawyer standpoint, two unrelated is much more problematic than two in the same family with kind of a grifter element overlaying it.
- [31:59]
Matt Murphy
Right.
- [32:00]
Heather McDonald
Yeah, I can, I can see why that would make sense, why you guys think that and why as a jury, that would make sense to me too. When it's laid out that way, you know, you're it. You just, you forget sometimes, you know, a child's mind and how they're so dependent on their parent and how they'll believe anything and why they go back to abusive parents and why they don't tell on parents and all of that. And then you put in the element of being a working child, which in an acting. Acting is the only job that children are allowed to have in America. They can't work at a factory. We change those laws, you know, 150 years ago. So you have the pressure of making money being, having adult schedule, even though they make it nice and they have a teacher on Set. There's a reason why children, actors are screwed up adults, you know, so it's.
- [32:53]
Matt Murphy
And stage parents really are weird. Some of them, not all, of course, but some of them really are. But let's, let's, let's move on. I really want to get your thoughts, Heather, on this. I don't even know how to pronounce. Au pair. Au pair.
- [33:06]
Heather McDonald
Well, you said it right. No, you said it right.
- [33:08]
Matt Murphy
How about nanny? How about the nanny murder case? Yes, tell us your insights on this one. This is a fascinating case.
- [33:15]
Heather McDonald
I think, I think it's just one of the most horrible cases ever. Because you know, there's always a classic nanny Lifetime movie, the hand rocks the cradle. You, you hire a nanny to help you. They flirt with the husband, they want to be the mom. That's like your worst nightmare. Well, this is 12 times that. So this woman, she's an RN, she has a husband who is an IRS officer, they have a four year old daughter, she works night. So they hire this nanny through an agency, hence why it's aupair, because they're not American. She comes over from Brazil and you know the girl, the woman Christina thinks everything's great. Unbeknownst to her, they start having an affair and decide the best way to get rid of her is to set up this elaborate scheme. According to the prosecution, put open up a website under her name as a, as a person who joins it called Kink Life or something. FetLife. That's it. FetLife, like Fetish life. And as acting like her says, my fantasy is to have a guy come up to the room and rape me and bring your knife and bring your rope and make it feel like a rape. So this guy thinks he's with somebody who's into the fetish thing and she's taking a nap after her, you know, shift thinks that the nanny and the four year old are at the park and this guy is in the room doing what he was told to do. And then the nanny calls the IRS dad, he comes over, he has a gun, he, you know, is like trying to save the day and I think shoots him, takes the knife that he brought, kills his wife with a knife. And then the nanny sees that he's moving on the ground and shoots that guy too. So they killed both people. Ruined. If, if they were to be found out, their reputations would have been destroyed because you would have thought, my God, this woman's not only cheating on her husband, but she's into some sick shit and this guy is into some Sick shit. And he's a murderer. A rapist and a murderer. It is the most unbelievable story I have. And then, you know, I guess the defense for the guy is that she's just saying all this because she is an immigrant and she's from Colombia or no, Brazil. And she's going to do all that she can to get the best deal and eventually be free and go back to Brazil.
- [35:55]
Matt Murphy
What do you think?
- [35:56]
Heather McDonald
Mark, it's insane.
- [35:58]
Mark Garagos
It's a new way to get deported and not send our best and our brightest. But I. I'm with other.
- [36:04]
Matt Murphy
I.
- [36:05]
Mark Garagos
You couldn't script this. I mean, nobody would buy it. I mean, it's wild to me.
- [36:10]
Heather McDonald
I mean, the level of. Of cruelty, like. Yeah. And so what? So think about her point of view. First she thinks she's being attacked, and then she sees her husband as a hero. Oh, thank God you shot my attacker. And then he takes the knife and kills her. So it's like her last moments were just, like, beyond the most horrible thing.
- [36:40]
Mark Garagos
Yeah.
- [36:40]
Matt Murphy
What a way to go out. I hadn't even thought about that. There she is. She's living an exemplary life. She's not into any of this stuff either. By the way, I've watched a bunch of this trial, Mark. The opening was just like. It was kind of tough. And I don't want to criticize them, but this woman was by all accounts, a wonderful human being. And imagine that you spend your last couple of seconds, your husband saves you, and then he stabs you in the neck. And that was her last moment on this earth. It's freaking horrible. And then the other guy, poor, poor, dumb, horny dude, shows up, and he's also innocent. He's. He's. He bought into this whole thing. But it's. You know, you wouldn't be the first man who made a horrible decision, you know, based on. Sexual desires.
- [37:32]
Mark Garagos
I was gonna say based on bad information and bad impulses.
- [37:36]
Matt Murphy
Bad information and bad impulses in a sexual context. But boy, oh, boy.
- [37:42]
Heather McDonald
Have they got. Have they gotten into how he came up with. According to her, who's the star witness, the nanny. How he came up with this elaborate scheme.
- [37:55]
Matt Murphy
I don't think so. I don't. I haven't read anything about that. Another thing I really wanted to see is. I wanted to. And I wanted to see forensic evidence where. Because the. All the communications on this FetLife website, you know, are on her computer. So there had to be times where her cell phone is someplace else and these communications are happening on the computer. Otherwise, every one of these would have to be sent on her computer when her husband's in the house. And I just know they had to have separated those at some point. But this guy's a. He's a federal agent. He knows about DNA. He's had all the training in the world. And you know, I. I got to tell you guys, this is the. The defense, I think, did a pretty good job in their cross examination of her. I think one of the mistakes that the prosecution. I hope they don't make in this is when you flip somebody in a co. Conspiracy. Conspiracy. And Mark knows this very well. An amateur move is to think that you got to get your jury to like your witness. Look, she looks like a.
- [38:54]
Mark Garagos
Right.
- [38:55]
Matt Murphy
And they.
- [38:55]
Mark Garagos
There.
- [38:56]
Heather McDonald
You.
- [38:56]
Matt Murphy
You put them on you. You hold the witness in as much disdain as they will like. And I. And I've seen. I've heard some really sympathetic things said by. By this prosecutor that they don't have to do that because if the jury thinks they got to like her, prosecution is going to lose this case. And they don't have to.
- [39:12]
Heather McDonald
I mean, they can't like her. I mean, she shot. She shot the final gun. She may be naive for the woman, for the guy. For the guy.
- [39:20]
Matt Murphy
Right. And she may be taken advantage of by a guy who's 15 years older. If you sign on to this plot, I don't care if you're in love. I don't care if you're unsophisticated. I don't care if you're not another country. You're a. You're a terrible person. So you.
- [39:32]
Heather McDonald
You. You.
- [39:33]
Matt Murphy
It's. You give the jury permission to hate her, but it's whether or not they believe her. They don't have to like her in order to believe her. And that's like Mark, right? That's every gang case you've ever done. One of the little.
- [39:45]
Mark Garagos
It's almost every federal case where they put somebody on who's a cooperation operator and you don't. You don't see them embrace it. They do the opposite. That's why it's so effective. They kind of preempt you by parading out every horrible thing and they make the person admit it. Known it.
- [40:02]
Matt Murphy
I wouldn't let them trust out. I'd bring them in in their jail jumpsuit. I'm sorry, Heather, I didn't mean to step on you.
- [40:07]
Heather McDonald
I was just gonna say going back to. Because when we went over it, all the correspondence from her account done on her computer to set up the fetlife rendezvous was Done at every time she was home. Now she could have been in the shower, she could have been taking a nap, but they did it when she was home. And the prosecution said that's how planned out it was. It was very planned out. Now a defense could say, well that's because it was her. It really was her. I mean, I assume his defense is he did not set this up. She was into this kink and this guy really was doing that. But I think they have pretty strong DNA evidence that he did the stabbing. But then it could also be that, you know, she was stabbed and he happened to touch her and touch the knife. And they also allowed him to wash his hands after because they, when the cops came, they really did think the story was the story. I mean, who would have thought when you get called into something like this that you're like, wait, were the two of you having an affair and you set up a fake account and this is a weird fetish thing and you know, so do you think there's any chance he could get off?
- [41:26]
Mark Garagos
I do. I think the fact that I think you hit exactly where the defense is going to argue is that, look, the cops first instincts is what was really what happened. And it's only after the fact when you layer on once again all of these other things in a way to hold somebody accountable. I mean, but if the cops were seasoned investigators thought that this is what happened. Why are we here to second guess that. And it's reasonable doubt.
- [41:53]
Matt Murphy
Yeah. And you know, they really. This is one of those things, Mark. And it's, it's, it's easy, Heather, for me to criticize. A buddy of mine used to have a sign on his desk. The older I get, the better I was right. So, so I. With that full acknowledgement they have, the prosecution is a tough job, but you got to bring some passion into this one. And you gotta, you've really gotta humanize both victims. Really. Don't be afraid of the fact that the guy was horny and stupid. Like he's, he apparently, I don't think he has any criminal background at all that, that I've. That at least that I've seen in the trial. But this woman, like you said, my God, other. What a. What, you would've been a good prosecutor. That's a great way to put it. Imagine the last moment of her life. And you can't really put your, your jury in the shoes of your victim. You're not supposed to. But there's ways to argue that. I think very effectively. I don't know, this is. This is one that I. You know, Mark, and you can. You can price it.
- [42:45]
Heather McDonald
I mean, I wish I was the.
- [42:47]
Matt Murphy
Prosecutor on this one. I really do.
- [42:48]
Mark Garagos
I.
- [42:48]
Matt Murphy
This one, I have no doubt this guy did.
- [42:52]
Mark Garagos
It wouldn't have unfolded this way. Trust me, if you were sorry. I used to say, Heather, when I would go down to Orange county and have a case against Matt, I would tell the. I would tell them, you've got to understand what we're up against.
- [43:05]
Matt Murphy
That's nice of you to say. I don't know. This is one I feel strongly about. Heather, it is so awesome to have you on the show. This is so fun. I feel like I'm so excited. I probably talked over you way too much.
- [43:18]
Heather McDonald
No, not at all.
- [43:19]
Matt Murphy
I would love it if you'd be willing to do it again, Mark and I, and for the viewers, we're starting our own podcast here pretty soon under the Megyn Kelly umbrella.
- [43:26]
Heather McDonald
Great.
- [43:27]
Matt Murphy
And it's called into the well, which is the area between the council table and the judge's bench. And nobody's supposed to go there. Mark are gonna. Mark and I are gonna go there together into this, and we would love to have you back.
- [43:41]
Heather McDonald
Yeah. That's awesome. This is great. How cute that you guys used to go up against each other and now you're little Cute Friends together doing a podcast.
- [43:50]
Matt Murphy
Little Cute Friends Together.
- [43:52]
Mark Garagos
We love telling war stories. So, yeah, by the way, into the well normally means you'll get shot by the bailiff, so we'll spare you from that.
- [44:02]
Matt Murphy
Or in the olden days, stabbed with a fl. Flail. Anyway, thank you so much, Heather. Really, really. I. I really enjoyed this and thank you for being so awesome. Next, your mailbag and closing arguments. And remember, we want to hear from you. Email your comments and story suggestions to mk true crimevilmaycare media.com. we'll be right back.
- [44:25]
Mark Garagos
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- [46:45]
Matt Murphy
Welcome back to MK True Crime. We'll get to closing arguments, but first we have a question from an anonymous listener. They say hi. First and foremost, the show is amazing. Thank you very much. There was a case out of Newport Beach, California. The defendant, Camden Nicholson, killed his parents and housekeeper. He has suffered from mental illness issues recognized by his own family. He had the defense of insanity at the time. The jury, however, found him guilty of the crimes and then later found him sane. I think this case is so similar to the Reiner case and deserves a read. Deserves a read to lay out what could happen. Thank you Anonymous due to work. Thank you Anonymous due to work. If you're in the court system anywhere in Orange county, you might remember that I was actually the prosecutor on this case. In the vertical system that Orange county utilizes, we also as Homicide prosecutors would go to our own scenes. And I actually went to this crime scene. I charged Camden Nicholson with the murder of both of his parents and the housekeeper as well. You're absolutely right. This is a case where this man had a very well documented history of organic mental illness. And by organic, I mean basically not his fault. He was a young guy, devoutly religious family, who had a series of mental health problems. Family had a ton of money. It was a beautiful home. And he essentially did what they call self medicating, where he took a lot of drugs, which does no good to anybody suffering from mental health issues. And what he did is the family was attempting to commit him or to put him in an involuntary conservatorship. And part of that involved having the housekeeper as a witness, sign an affidavit at one point. So he went in and he murdered his mother and he murdered his father. And then he waited in the house for several hours in ambush, waiting for the poor housekeeper who came in, and he murdered her too. So this was an awful one. And also they had this beautiful fish tank in the backyard. It was like, I don't know, maybe 500 gallons or maybe 1,000 gallons this big. They had this beautiful outdoor patio with these exotic tropical fish. And the fish tank guy, the cleaner guy, showed up at the house and did all of his maintenance while Camden was waiting in the house in ambush for the. For the housekeeper. And for whatever reason, that man either never went inside the house, but he survived that. And it's just terrifying. So that has some real similarities. In fact, it's the closest case I can think of to the Reiner case. Now, where the difference is, I think, is that somebody can do hard drugs and essentially drug themselves into schizophrenia. And it's well recognized it's known as methamphetamine induced psychosis, where they experience all the classic symptoms of psychosis or even schizophrenia. But it's not because they're organically mentally ill. It's because they have made a series of bad life choices, and they've essentially stayed up for four or five days because of their extreme drug use. I think there's a difference from the perspective of prosecutors as well as juries. And the Camden Nicholson case is a really good example of what's known as the McNaughton Rule. The McNaughton Rule stands for the proposition that mental illness and legal insanity are not the same thing. In other words, you can be mentally ill, but you're still responsible for your actions when it comes to killing somebody. And the Example that we use with our juries is if you are mentally ill and a devil pops up on your shoulder and he says, hey, go stab those people or I'm going to turn you into a zebra. If you know that those are people and you go and stab them anyway, and that's the delusion you're suffering from, you are legally sane under the McNaughton Rule. If, however, the devil pops up and says, go stab those bananas over there, and you think you're stabbing bananas, and it means you don't recognize the nature and quality of your actions, in other words, you don't recognize right from wrong in what you're doing. And that is an extremely high bar. It was a very high bar in the Camden Nicholson case. And that jury, a friend of mine, Dave Porter, wound up prosecuting that in trial after I retired from the DA's office. And he did a great job. And the jury did exactly the right thing on that. They said he's mentally ill, but he understood that he was killing his parents because they were trying to commit him. In essence, I think Nick Reiner is looking at a lot of the same problems here. And I also think that Nick Reiner, he's less sympathetic, in my view, because even though there's some diagnoses of schizophrenia, that was after 17 different stints in rehab. And I think that he may come off a lot closer to that spoiled rich kid that just couldn't launch from his parents and had a bad night and decided to kill him. But I think it's pretty clear he knew it was his parents. And if they can establish that, if the prosecution can, or if the defense can't, and it's the defense's burden to prove insanity, then he's got a very tough road ahead of him. So it's interesting. Thank you very much for that question. I hope that answer wasn't too long. But that's one that's near and dear to my heart because I'm so familiar with that case, and it was such a. Such a sad one. But thank you for submitting that. Okay. There's an old adage we've all heard of. It's called don't throw stones when you live in a glass house. Or sometimes you might say, don't attack people unfairly when your husband is kind of a dick. Megyn Kelly received a bunch of criticism about a month ago when she commented correctly that Jeffrey Epstein was not a pedophile. A lot of people who were ignorant of what that term actually means jumped on her and Said she's defending a monster, blah, blah, blah. And I went public then and I explained to people, when you start as a sexual assault prosecutor, when you your first pretty much day in that unit, you learn that there are three kinds of sexual predators when it comes to children. You have pedophiles, which are people that are specifically attracted to prepubescent children. You have what are called hebephiles, which are sexual predators that are attracted to kids who are going through puberty. And then you have what are known as febophiles, which are sexual predators who are attracted to post pubescent children. And arguably those are some of the very worst because they, unlike the other two varieties, can actually impregnate their victims, which has catastrophic lifelong consequences in the real world for their victims. Okay, we are about to see something on the Timothy Busfield case. His lawyers are going to come in and they're going to argue that these other allegations against Tim Busfield should not be admitted in front of a jury in New Mexico because they are too dissimilar from the accusations. And I'm going to tell you, his attorneys are going to be right when they argue that when you're talking about post pubescent females, it is very dissimilar from prepubescent boys. It's a different, different kind of case because one is a pedophile type crime, the other is an ephebophile crime. There there's a distinction drawn both in the dsm, which is what all psychologists and psychiatrists use. There's also very important distinctions made in the law. And the court is going to have to weigh the probative value versus prejudicial effect of that information. And my prediction is, my prediction is the judge is going to agree with the defense on that, that external accusations or prior bad act evidence will be excluded. And this trial is going to roll just on the allegations of those two little boys. And there are some significant problems in this case. Proof wise for the prosecution. The person who is going to be nodding along the hardest when the defense team correctly makes that argument is Melissa Gilbert, who's Timothy Busfield's wife, who was one of the most vicious critics of Megyn Kelly. When Megyn Kelly came out and correctly pointed out that Jeffrey Epstein was not a pedophile, she got attacked by a lot of people who disagreed with her politically. It was unfair. They were wrong. And there were basically two groups or those who were emotionally responding because he didn't understand the distinction between the different varieties of child sex offender. And then there were those that were cynically taking advantage of it. I don't know which one of those categories Melissa Gilbert falls into, but when you're going to attack somebody unfairly, maybe everybody, especially in an overheated political climate, should take a breath and learn what the fuck you're talking about before you accuse somebody else of supporting a sexual predator monster like Jeffrey Epstein. So we're about to see something really interesting in court where I think we're going to cross the line from irony into hypocrisy. And I think it's a it's a learning moment. That's my closing argument for today. Thank you for listening to my rant. This is one that just gets my blood boiling. Thank you. Thank you so much to our guest, Heather McDonald and to my co host, Mark Aragos. And thank you for joining us, everybody. Please have a wonderful weekend.