Why Everybody Has Something to Hide with Guy Kawasaki, Chief Evangelist at Canva

Summary

Podcast Summary: Modern CTO – "Why Everybody Has Something to Hide" with Guy Kawasaki (Chief Evangelist at Canva) Date: March 23, 2026 | Host: Joel Beasley

---

Episode Overview

In this insightful and engaging episode of Modern CTO, Joel Beasley is joined by Guy Kawasaki—legendary Apple evangelist and the current Chief Evangelist at Canva. The primary focus is digital privacy in today’s interconnected world, centered around the concept that "everybody has something to hide." Drawing on his new book, Kawasaki explores the risks of digital communication, the importance of secure messaging (highlighting Signal), and shares practical advice on privacy, evangelism, and the persistent human element in technology blunders.

---

Table of Contents

• The Importance of Privacy in the Digital Age
• Why Signal? Encryption, Metadata, and Security
• The Flawed "Nothing to Hide" Argument
• Real-World Threats and Human Error
• Signal’s Business Model & Accessibility
• Use Cases: Privacy Beyond Criminals
• Democracy, Privacy, and Free Expression
• Guy’s Evangelism Masterclass (with Tips!)
• Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments
• How to Get the Book

---

The Importance of Privacy in the Digital Age <a name="importance-privacy"></a>

• Kawasaki’s book: "Everybody Has Something to Hide" (00:37)

  • Focus: Raising privacy and safety awareness for text messaging, especially via Signal.
  • Purpose: Serve as a practical manual for increasing digital privacy.

• Privacy is not just for criminals:

  • Daily digital interactions include sensitive information—credentials, travel plans, and personal confessions—that everyone wants to keep private. (03:10, 04:19)

---

Why Signal? Encryption, Metadata, and Security <a name="why-signal"></a>

• Signal’s edge: (01:12–03:06)
  • Signal uses end-to-end encryption like WhatsApp and iMessage.
  • Crucially, Signal only keeps three pieces of metadata: your phone number, when you opened the account, and your last active time. No substantial logs of contacts or message contents.
  • In contrast, Meta and Apple retain more metadata (up to 12 types) that can be revealing when pieced together.

“Signal retains only three things... With just those, you can't even build a circumstantial case about what Guy was doing or who he was communicating with.” – Guy Kawasaki [02:03]

• Metadata is “very, very, very revealing”:
  • Even without message content, patterns, contacts, and timings can serve as evidence.

---

The Flawed “Nothing to Hide” Argument <a name="nothing-to-hide"></a>

• Reframing the question: (03:06–04:15)
  • Kawasaki uses a vivid analogy:
    • Imagine every text you send being broadcast on a highway billboard. From passwords to travel details, almost everyone has something they’d prefer to keep private.

“Everybody has something to hide, including, and maybe especially, the good guys.” – Guy Kawasaki [03:56]

• Raising the stakes with real-life risks:
  • Sensitive issues like health or reproductive rights texts (e.g., abortion concerns across state lines) are particularly vulnerable. (04:19)

---

Real-World Threats, Human Error, and Digital Trust <a name="real-world-threats"></a>

• Centralized data and political change: (04:55–06:23)
  • Concern that anyone in power can weaponize user data.
  • Anecdotes about corporate leaders potentially facing pressure to hand over user data.

“You should design everything... for when your team’s not running the show.” – Joel Beasley [04:55]

• Principle: “They can’t use what they don’t have.” (07:19)
  • Avoid platforms storing your data at all, rather than relying on legal or policy protections after the fact.

---

The SignalGate Human Blunder (15:29–18:30)

• The hack-proof tech isn't fool-proof:
  • Story of “SignalGate” – when top officials accidentally added the editor-in-chief of The Atlantic to a classified military Signal chat.
  • Laughter about human error trumping technology.

“We have the most secure technology in your hands. And you fat-finger, accidentally adding someone to the group chat. That’s such a human thing to do.” – Joel Beasley [16:36]

“No can fix stupid.” – Guy Kawasaki [27:02]

---

Signal’s Business Model & Accessibility <a name="signal-business-model"></a>

• Nonprofit, donation-based model: (24:44–26:25)
  • Signal relies on user donations, charging for additional features (e.g., secure backups).
  • Kawasaki advocates for voluntary subscriptions, with ability to sponsor users in need globally.

---

Use Cases: Privacy Beyond Criminals <a name="privacy-use-cases"></a>

• For everyone: (27:18–30:11)
  • Case studies include lawyers, doctors, journalists, and parents.
  • Shared information (e.g. angry texts during divorce proceedings) can come back to haunt even “good” people.
  • Advocates for professionals suggesting Signal to their clients as a sign of trust and confidentiality.

“If you start dealing... and the doctor or lawyer says, ‘If you don't mind, I would like to switch this conversation to Signal,’... I would say, ‘This person really cares about my privacy and safety.’” – Guy Kawasaki [29:08]

---

Democracy, Privacy, and Free Expression <a name="democracy-privacy"></a>

• Connection between privacy and democratic freedoms: (30:11–31:26)
  • Cites Congressman Ro Khanna’s foreword: privacy underpins a functioning democracy.
  • Without privacy, fear of surveillance chills free expression and undermines democracy.
  • Example: Confidential voting ensures fair elections and avoids coercion.

---

Guy’s Evangelism Masterclass (with Tips!) <a name="evangelism-tips"></a>

Three Key Principles:

1. Guy’s Golden Touch: (31:50–33:14)

   • “It’s not that whatever I touch turns to gold. It’s that whatever is gold, Guy touches.”
   • Only evangelize worthwhile products or ideas.

2. Show, Don’t Just Tell:

   • “A demo is worth a thousand slides.” (33:34)
   • Whenever possible, demonstrate benefits and features live.

3. The Power (and Perils) of Stories: (34:46–40:16)

   • Always use stories to connect and convince.
   • But: Always resist stories when you’re the audience—question what’s missing, beware of anecdotes outweighing data.

“Stories are seductive... You use stories, but you also have to resist stories.” – Guy Kawasaki [40:01]

---

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments <a name="notable-quotes"></a>

• On privacy:

  "Once they have it, you're out of control." [07:19]

• On managing private data:

  “If they don't have it, they can't use it.” [07:19]

• On human error:

  “No can fix stupid.” [27:02]

• On the proliferation of metadata:

  “Metadata is very, very, very revealing.” [03:02]

• On privacy and democracy:

  "Privacy is a prerequisite for democracy... if you cannot express your feelings, it’s hard to make the case you’re living in a democracy." [30:26]

• On evangelism:

  “Don’t evangelize shit.” [32:41]
  “A demo is worth a thousand slides.” [33:36]

---

How to Get the Book <a name="how-to-get-book"></a>

• The book “Everybody Has Something to Hide” is available exclusively on Amazon Kindle for $0.99.
• Free offer: Email [e-mail] (U.S. residents only, Amazon’s policy) and Guy will personally “gift” you a Kindle copy.

"I’m in the return phase of my career. I just want as many people to have this book. I don’t care about royalties. I just want people to be private and secure." – Guy Kawasaki [13:48]

---

For Listeners:
Whether you’re a technology leader, a parent, or a privacy-minded individual, Guy Kawasaki presents both technical reasoning and philosophical imperatives for making privacy a priority. The episode is rich with practical analogies, humor, and actionable evangelism advice—underscoring that everyone, indeed, has something to hide.

---

Key Timestamps:

• 01:12 — Signal vs. iMessage/WhatsApp: Metadata Differences
• 04:19 — Risks of Sensitive Messaging (Abortion Laws Example)
• 07:19 — Principle: Data that’s never collected can’t be abused
• 10:21 — The “SignalGate” Human Error Incident
• 24:44 — Signal’s Nonprofit Business Model
• 27:18 — Use Cases: How Privacy Law Applies to Everyone
• 30:26 — Privacy as a Prerequisite for Democracy
• 31:50 — Guy’s Evangelism Tips

---

To learn more, visit:

• Amazon: Everybody Has Something to Hide (search for the book)
• Email: [e-mail] (for a free Kindle copy, U.S. only)

---

End of Summary

Transcript

[A]

Today we're talking to Guy Kawasaki, legendary Apple evangelist and chief evangelist at Canva, about why everybody's privacy is at stake in our digital age and what you can do about it. You're listening to Joel Beasley, modern cto.

[B]

All right. How we doing, Guy? Have you gone surfing this morning yet?

[A]

No. You are standing in the way of surfing? Oh, no.

[B]

Well, I'm excited. I'm. You've got a book out and. Tell me about it.

[A]

Well, the book is called Believe it or Not, Everybody has Something to Hide. And this is a book about why and how to increase the privacy and safety of your text messaging, specifically by using Signal.

[B]

Well, yeah, I. I was excited to talk with you about it because I am not a Signal user. So I am. This is new for me. Like, I installed it a few years ago. A couple of my friends were on it, and it was like, all right. But then I just went back to Imessage because my. Everyone's over there for me. Yeah.

[A]

I mean, that. That is the single greatest challenge with Signal. But you knew you need to lose your signal. V. Signal Vinity. Signalinity. Signal plus virginity. Yeah. So listen, you know, I'm from the Apple ecosphere, but it's just that Signal, everybody is end to end encrypted these days. You know, say WhatsApp iMessages, signal is end to end encrypted, but people think that that's the beginning and the end of privacy and security. It also matters great deal about how much metadata that the platform retains. And Signal retains only three things. What's your phone number, when you open the account, and when you last used it. And if you think about that, knowing those three pieces of information, you really cannot even build some kind of circumstantial case about what Guy was doing or who he was communicating with. Whereas Meta and Apple, they. They keep about 12 metadata pieces of data, like who you were contacting, when, where, you know, all these kind of things. And using all that kind of circumstantial evidence, you can really prove a lot about what a person is doing. You know, if they see you making text messages with this other number that they know is, you know, a good guy or a bad guy, depending on, you know, how you define good and bad these days, you can build a pretty good case about what they were doing, you know, right before the demonstration, right before the act, right before, you know, whatever happens. So metadata is very, very, very revealing.

[B]

What about the people that say, well, I've got nothing to hide?

[A]

Well, I would make the case that it used to be, maybe only the criminals had to have had something to hide. But I would make the case that a better realistic test for you today is to pretend you're driving down the highway in Nash and you look and you see this billboard, and on this billboard is your text message. So now what's in that text message? Oh, there's one text message where it says, yeah, son, our Netflix family user ID is this. And this is the password. Or. Yeah, you're going to Hawaii. So you're booking a surfing lesson, and the surfing school wants your visa number. So you send them your visa number, expiration date, you know, and the secret code. So that's in a text message. You know, all those things, your travel plans, and none of that would you want on a billboard. So I think everybody has something to hide, including, and maybe especially the good guys.

[B]

Yeah, your credentials would definitely fit into that category.

[A]

Yeah, I cross the board. But now to take it up a level in paranoia, you know, let's say that you, you are living in California, you know, liberal state or something, and your niece or your granddaughter is in a state where, you know, abortion is more illegal and controlled, and she sends you a text message that says, I missed my period, Grandma. I don't know what to do. Boy, I'm telling you, these, these days, I would want that kind of text message to really be secure and private at.

[B]

I, I like the privacy. I lean towards that because if you're going to centralize all this data, it's like the flavor of whoever is in power in that geography. And that's what scares me. What scares me is, is when you're. You should design everything to. When your team's not running the show.

[A]

Exactly, exactly. Yeah. Yeah. And, you know, like, let's take something like Meta or Apple. And now those companies are driven by profit, which, don't get me wrong, I completely agree with that system. But, you know, Meta's in the business of monetizing content. What's the motivation there when you send something in WhatsApp. So there's that. And also, I mean, if you look at like Tim Cook is going, and he's going to the opening of the Melania movie, he's going to the inauguration, he's donating to the east wing destruction, he's going to the. Donating to the inaugural ball, you know, all that. And Apple doesn't have any tariffs. Let's see, is that a coincidence? And then you think, well, what's going to happen if Cash Patel says to Tim Cook Listen, I need access to everybody's icloud backups, and if you don't say yes, we're going to hit you with tariffs. I mean, you know, this is a little paranoid, but you got to start thinking like that.

[B]

Oh, it's, it's not unreasonable at all. I mean, ever, ever since, oh, man, my mind is blanked. Snowden, ever since Snowden, it's like all, all gloves are off. Like there's nothing. You could just go walk up to people on the street and tell them that, and they're not even phased by it. They're like, yeah, probably.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And yeah, I don't know about you, but, you know, there's a, there's a debate whether Snowden is a traitor or a patriot. I mean.

[B]

Oh, he's a patriot. Yeah, yeah, I, I lean towards that.

[A]

I lean towards that too. Yeah.

[B]

I mean, look, if that's, that's the whole system, it's like, I don't mind if we just say, yeah, we're spying on our own people. Be like, okay, like, that's fine, but you just don't, like, you know, here's the logical reason of why we're doing it, or to the extent in which we're doing it's like, okay, you know, I, I can understand that. And, but, well, yeah, I don't.

[A]

I tell you, I think one of the most important principles in privacy is that people or an organization cannot use what they don't have. So the key is that with end to end encryption and minimal metadata, they don't have anything they can use. So if they don't have it, they can't use it. Which is very different than saying they have it. But I am going to sue them if they use it. I'm going to make them give it up. I'm going to make them destroy it. Once they have it, you're out of control. I mean, you know, there's no legal action, there's no re real way to stop that. So the key is never having them have it.

[B]

Yeah, I agree with that. I like that. So you would say, like, let's talk about me. I'm imessage user. So most of that stuff's between, you know, I have my family text, between my wife and kids and all of that. What's my, my threat vector is like Tim Cook illegally providing backups to the government, which I would not be surprised if that were happening. We're not saying it is happening, but we're talking about threat vectors.

[A]

I, I don't Think Tim Cook is personally doing it to you, but it's not, it may not even be illegal. But you know, I don't know how old your kids are, but you know, they're, they're probably not college age. But I'm telling you, when your kids college, expect the text message that says, dad, what is the Netflix password? You can expect that and then, dad, I need to buy textbooks. Send me your Visa number. And dad, you know, I mean, you know, and dad, I cannot figure out the, you know, the, the Harvard housing system. Like I can't figure out how to apply for a dorm and all that. And you're finally going to say son or daughter. Listen, just send me your user id, send me your password, and I will take care of the housing application at Harvard. And I'm telling you, I'm telling you from firsthand experience, that conversation is going to happen every day.

[B]

I'm sending my, I'm sending my robot by then. I've got 15 years. Talk to dad Bot, he'll help you out. You're a nice parent, guy.

[A]

Maybe two months.

[B]

So yeah, I think I'm just bright eyed and bushy tailed because they're all under 10, you know, I'll check back

[A]

with you in 10 years. You're gonna say, guy, oh my God, you are so right. I wish I got you.

[B]

I love that happened. I'm wrong so much, Guy, it's, it's amazing. You know what I was impressed with? I was impressed with how quickly the Signal gate happened versus your book release. But you were able to include it in the. How did that all go? Was the book already mostly written then that happened and you're like, we gotta

[A]

go back and add it. I've been using Signal for roughly exactly one year. I started last March because of our Wired article. And I read about, you know, I never knew about Signal and I read about it, I said, wow, I think I should get on this. And then I interviewed the CEO of Signal for south by Southwest and she was an amazing, remarkable woman. And so I really fell in love with Signal. And even if I weren't paranoid and concerned about privacy and safety, just the user interface and the functionality of Sign is so well done. It's very well done. I would use Signal if it wasn't the most secure thing. So that's how it started. And you know, I just, I am concerned about what's happening in America today. And you know, you can get on social media and bitch and moan, but it's not clear to me that social media is effective at any kind of change anymore. It's basically an echo chamber. And you know, you're not changing anybody's mind. Nobody's changing your mind. So I thought, so what's something really practical I could do to help people increase their secrecy and their privacy and their safety? And it's like, oh, I could write a manual for Signal because no manual exists and originally the book was going to be Signal for Dummies, right? So I had a contract, I had a contract for this book to be Signal for Dummies. And you'll love this story. So I get the contract and I tell them one of the things I want in a contract is I want the price of the book to be $17.76.

[B]

Nice.

[A]

For obvious reasons. And they tell me, well, you can't do that because every Four Dummies book ends in 99 cents. And I said, well, you get the Easter egg, right? You get what I'm trying to say with 1776. Yeah, but everyone ends in 99 cents. And I said, well, did God tell you that? Did Buddha tell you that? Did Muhammad tell you that? Was it in the Sanskrit, in the Torah, Was it in the Bible? Where did it come down that everything has to end in 99 cents? So anyway, I walk from that contract, but the question you ask is how is it that it's so current? And this is, this is a deep philosophical question. So I did not use a traditional publisher because if I had used a traditional publisher, this book would not be out yet. They need nine months. And so I went purely digital and I self published. I self published because I can control the pricing. And when your Amazon, you have this thing where if you're exclusive with Amazon, every 90 days you can give it away for five days for free. So every 90 days I'm going to give it away for free. Also, when you revise a Kindle book, basically the epub, you, you change it at 8am and probably by the end of the day, you know the new version is in place. If you were the traditional publisher, you would have to wait till the warehouses are empty of the PA books and you know, maybe a whole thing probably will never be revised. So I can revise this instantly. I can jack the price around. Right now I have it at 99 cents and I'm giving it away. And I could, oh, I tell you what, so everybody listening, if you want a copy of this book, I will give you a copy through Kindle. And all you have to do, you have to be in the United States. This is an Amazon policy. It's between you and Jeff Bezos, not me. I would give it to you anywhere in the world, but only in the US you just send an email to the name of the book, which is, everybody has something to [e-mail], and I will gift you a copy of this book. Because I'm at the end of my career. I'm in the. You know, I. I think a career is divided into three phases. There's learn, there's earn, and there's return. And I'm in the return phase. So I want as many people to have this book. I don't care about royalties. I just want people to be private and secure.

[B]

I love it. I love. And I believe you, too, that. That.

[A]

That makes sense.

[B]

Yeah, it. It's so true, though, because when there's so many people that are in the earn stage of their career and they're. They're. They're trying to be in the return, they're trying to act like they're in the return, and it's like, well, maybe, but you're like, you're in it. You're in it.

[A]

Yeah. As soon as. As soon as I make my $1 trillion as a crypto entrepreneur, I'll be returning. Y. Sure. Whatever. Yeah, but you'd be returning from Leavenworth. Yeah.

[B]

You should buy my course. I'll teach you how to sell courses. I love that one. I love that. Okay, so you just. At the. You were. You. You already had the structure of the book, the framework of the book. You were working on it. You were. You were happy with it. And then Signal gate happens, and you kind of add it in at the last minute. How did that work?

[A]

Well, I mean. Well, Signal really exploded in popularity thanks to Pete Hegsworth and Sign gate right now. So people. If people are not figuring out what we're referring to. There was an instance a few months ago where members of the administration, they had a little Signal chat group, and they were discussing in sort of real time the bombing of the Houthis in Yemen. And let's just say that it's not appropriate to discuss those kind of military things on any network, much less a public network like Signal. And anyway, one of those people added. I mean, you. I mean, you cannot make this kind of shit up. I mean, it's. One of the people in that group, by mistake, added the editor in chief of the Atlantic to the group.

[B]

I mean, you know, I love it, guy. I like when I heard that. When I heard that, when it happened. I. My wife's. I was on the floor laughing. I was like, this is. We have the most secure technology in your hands. And you fat finger accidentally adding someone to the group chat. That's such a human thing to do. I love it.

[A]

That is, I mean, maybe before you were born, but a few years ago, a few years ago, I swear to God, a few years ago, if you work for Saturday Night Live or you work for the Onion or you work for Jimmy Kimmel, you had to struggle with things to come up that were funny. You know, you really had to, like, think about how can we make fun of Barack Obama with his tan suit? You know, how can we make fun of Hillary Clinton with her email server? But. And, and so you had to use your imagination, your creativity, but now you just tell what happened. You don't have to make anything else. Like, yeah, these top secret military guys, they admitted the editor in chief of the Atlantic to a chat group to discuss attacks on the hoodies in real time. I mean, you. You cannot make that up. I mean, anyway, so, anyway, apparently nobody did, right? So, anyway, so this happened. And you know, of course, it comes out that everybody was in this Signal chat group and, you know, all this happened. So. So Signal got a lot of exposure. Now you could make the case. Well, I thought you told me, guy, that Signal is secure. Well, it is secure, but if you're a dumbass and you admit someone from the editor from the Atlantic, what are you gonna.

[B]

I mean, of all the people, not your cousin, not your wife by accident, like the editor of the Atlantic. That is awesome.

[A]

So you know the. The metaphor I like to use to explain when people say signal is not secure. Look, what happened here. The metaphor is, let's suppose that you get the most amazing and secure smart lock for your house. All right? It's a deadbolt. You know, it's password protected. And you give your wife, and you give your kids, and you give your maid, and you give your dog walker and you give your yard man the combination for the door. Right? Right. Everything's good, everything's secure. You can revoke the combination. You know, all that stuff, right? But like a dumbass, you also give the passcode to your smart lock to the burglar. And so the burglar breaks in and robs you. Whose fault is that, the smart lock or you?

[B]

It's the smart lock's fault for sure. It should be smart enough to know I didn't want them in at that time. Time. It's a dumb lock, Guy. What about. What about like, all right, I've heard Joe Rogan talk a lot about how they can just, like, see the screen of your phone. So it doesn't matter if you're using signal. Do. Is there any truth. Have you heard any reports of that?

[A]

Well, who is they?

[B]

I. I guess deep government officials. If they want to look at your device, they can just look at it.

[A]

Okay, so like, like, quote, deep government officials, they're using their supercomputers and they're breaking into signal. Yeah, yeah, that's the biggest threat.

[B]

No, not into signal. Not into signal. They look in your phone and whatever's on your screen, they can see.

[A]

Okay, so. So, yes, I mean, if you're a dumbass and you got your super secret message coming in and, and you're sitting in, you know, United Airlines and you're holding your phone up and you're reading it, and the person behind you. I mean, okay, I could see that happening. Oh. You know, but. Well, I tell you, if. If you truly, truly wanted to minimize that, believe it or not, in Signal, you can set up automatic disappearing messages, which is something that I encourage. Everybody should set up signal, and you can pick periods as short as one second, so you could have it. So I send you a text message. You have. And you open it, you read it, you have one second, and it'. Gone. You know, Joe Rogan will have to be looking at your phone pretty carefully right away, you know, so you can also, believe it or not, and signal, you can also send pictures that can be viewed only one time. So I, I mean, obviously, you know, if you, if, if you are at there and you're looking over the guy's shoulder and all that kind of stuff. Yeah, I mean, that is true, but I kind of believe that the. I don't think the biggest threat is somebody seeing your screen. I mean, compared to just sheer stupidity.

[B]

Yeah. Do you think, like, okay, so have you ever used with your kids the ability to share your screen on your iPhone? You can share your screen in, like a call, like in a FaceTime call or something? I.

[A]

I haven't used that. Try to provide tech support. So, yes. So. So you're saying if you're sharing your screen with the editor of the Atlantic by mistake, they could read your message?

[B]

No, no, I'm saying, like, you know, the API, like from a. I'm. I'm gonna get a serious question here, a technology question here for you. Okay, so technically, the API exists for me to share my screen because I can share it with my wife. I can just be on A call there, click the button. It shows me that. Now there's a little indicator on my phone that lights up and they say it's like hardwired or whatever. So whenever that's on, it's active, so on and so forth. So my question to you is, do you think it's possible that the government can access that API without you knowing?

[A]

Well, anything is possible.

[B]

Like technologically there's no hurdle, right? There's no hurdle for that, that you and I are technology advanced enough to know that if I can share it with a willing participant, then the technology exists for me to share. Now the question is, is it willing situation or not?

[A]

Well, I gotta tell you that, you know, I conceptually agree with you, but I gotta tell you that that is way down my list of potential threats. I mean, you know.

[B]

Oh, like you think they're definitely monitoring Elon's phone like that? You think there's like some CIA person just sitting there all day just watching a complete mirror of Elon's device?

[A]

I mean, he's saying, oh, Elon said a cybertruck is safe. In a fire, the door will open automatically. You know, I mean, okay, so you, I. Can I ask you a question? So, yeah. If someone said to you that the Earth is getting polluted too much, people, you know, bad things are happening to the earth. So our backup plan is to go to a planet that takes two years to get to, that there's no oxygen, that it's, you know, I don't know, 200 degrees and there's nothing but storms yet. That's the backup plan. We're going to go all the way over there and colonize that. That's the backup plan. I mean,

[B]

I would rather just live in space. Yeah, right.

[A]

Oh, how about we fix the Earth, right?

[B]

Oh, Joe, no. Get out of here, guy. We're not going to have any of that conversation. Spaceship Earth. Yeah, I love that. All right. Sorry. You're fun. That was awesome. What is Signal's business model?

[A]

So signal's business model is, first of all, I have no official affiliation with signal. It's not like an employee or anything.

[B]

You're an evangelist.

[A]

You went from, I mean, unpaid, unrecognized evangelist. I'm the purest form of evangelist because I have no financial, you know, in the financial stake in this game. Well, Signals model is not for profit. So it is. It is completely dependent on people donating to Signal and supporting Signal with pledges. Now there is. They now start charging for remote secure back up. You know, a grand total of like $2 a month or something. But me personally, I think that they should charge a service that, you know, to have a signal account, you have to pay $10 a month. And now many, many people cannot afford to pay $10 a month and need to secure things, especially in, you know, sort of developing countries where they're fighting oppression. So I say, you know, yeah, make it $10 a month and make it voluntary area. And people like me be happy to pay, but, you know, I'd be. I'd be happy to sponsor people in those countries who cannot pay. But I think that it is such a valuable service. I have no pro. I mean, compared to the other that I pay $10 a month. I mean, I got. I mean. I mean, I'm afraid to look at my Apple subscriptions I'm subscribing to. I don't even know what it is anymore, and I don't know how to get out of it. I spend $5 every morning on coffee. I'm gonna spend $10 a month on signal. What is the problem?

[B]

Yeah, that. That's. He gave me too many branches of places to go with that you fried my mind guy. So we talked a little bit about what signal doesn't protect you from the person over your ear being just dumb and adding the wrong person.

[A]

I'm in Hawaii, and there's a famous Hawaiian saying that is appropriate at this point. And the famous Hawaiian saying is no can fix stupid.

[B]

That's funny. That's right. You cannot fix it. You know, it's funny. It's like we're all stupid sometimes.

[A]

Yeah. Oh, believe me. Believe me, I am absolutely stupid. Many times

[B]

you talk about use cases in the book that, you know, like, doctors, lawyers, journalists, parents act, all these different use cases. Why did you cover all of these? Are you. Are you trying to bring some awareness to the different situations people could use them in?

[A]

Yeah, I mean, you know, the title of the book is Everybody has something to hide. It's not only bad guys have something to hide. So I wanted to show people that. Let's say you're a family lawyer, right? So you're a family lawyer. Your client is in a messy divorce. You're going back and forth with your client, and, you know, now it comes to child custody. And one day your client is a little tipsy and sends you a text message that says, over my ex's dead body will he ever get our kids right? And you meant it as a joke or whatever, right? Not now. Imagine how that will help you when you're in court, and the opposing consul says, on this day, at this time, did you send the message that said, over my client's dead body, will he get the kids? I would make the case that, you know, someone who threatens the life of her ex or his ex is not a good parent. You know, I mean, clearly this is a case that if they didn't have that text message, it would be a lot better than you saying, oh, judge, you know, I was just being funny that day. I had a little bit too much to drink. I didn't really mean that. Be much better to have it so that there's nothing to discuss. Right. So, I mean, that's a legal case. I would also make the case. When you're dealing with these kind of things. Doctor, lawyer, or whatever, businessman, there is a very powerful, I would say, psychological message that if you start dealing, let's say you're just contacting a lawyer or a doctor for the first time, and the doctor or the lawyer says, if you don't mind, I would like to switch this conversation to signal for greater confidentiality. And what. What that says to me. If I were to hear that, I would say, this person really cares about my privacy and safety. They're asking me to use signal. To use a medical analogy. You know, when. When you go to. When you go to a doctor's office and they say, would you please put on a mask? You know, it is a pain in the ass. You don't want to do it. On the other hand, the message you should get is these people really care about safety. And I think that is a very powerful and positive and useful message to communicate to people that you care about their privacy.

[B]

See, in the forward of your book, I can't remember off the top of my head who. Who wrote it, but I think Congressman Ro wrote. Yeah. And they mentioned privacy is a prerequisite to democracy. Can you tell me a little bit more about that? Yeah.

[A]

Well, my. My feeling is that privacy is a prerequisite for democracy, because with privacy, you can truly express your own feelings. Right. And. And part of being in a democracy is the ability to express your feelings and feel suppressed, and you cannot express your feelings, it's hard to make a case you're living in a democracy. And, you know, I mean, when. When you read things that say, if. If we don't like how you report on the war in Iran, we're gonna take away your license. I mean, heart. It's hard to make the case that that is a democratic attitude. Yeah. Wow.

[B]

Well, also, you know, the voting is a private thing also, right?

[A]

For sure. Yes.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Like that keeps you from coercion and all of this. And. And we want our votes to be private. So if nothing more, privacy is important for our votes to be private.

[A]

No kidding. Yeah.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Wow.

[B]

I did have an evangelism question for you though. So I. We're coming towards the end of the interview here, if I would be so silly if I have this world class expert that's been a career in evangelism across some of the biggest brands that are household names. And I didn't ask you for like one or two tips on evangelism as a whole.

[A]

Oh, I'll be glad to help you with that. So tip number one is called Guy's golden touch. And guy's golden touch is not that whatever I touch turns to gold. Guy's golden touch is whatever is gold guy touches. So what I'm trying to tell you is if you want to be a successful evangelist, evangelize something that's good. Because it's easy to evangelize something good and it's very hard to evangelize. So don't try to evangelize shit. Duh. Now that sounds like a duh ism, but, man, you'd be amazed at how many people are trying to evangelize stuff that's crap. Now, evangelism comes from a Greek word meaning bringing the good news. So I can evangelize Macintosh because it made people more creative and productive. I can evangelize Canva because it's democratized design. I can evangelize Signal because it fosters people's privacy and security. All of those things are gold. So guy touches gold. Guy doesn't try to evangelize shit. And so my recommendation to you is, don't evangelize shit. Wow.

[B]

I think I just got a new life principle out of that one. I'm gonna go home and tell my wife, like, we gotta rework our whole family motto. The Beasleys touch gold. That's really brilliant. I love that.

[A]

All right, so that's one tip.

[B]

I'll give you one tips.

[A]

Second tip. Second tip is, to the extent possible, always try to do a demo. A demo is worth a thousand slides. So when you're evangelizing Macintosh, this is before you were born. When you're evangelizing MacIntosh, you show MacPaint and Mac right and how different Mac paint and Mac right were from any other piece of software before. So you always do the demo when you show Canva. When you evangelize Canva, you Show how easy it is to create a beautiful graphic. It's always about the demo because everybody, everybody says, I have patent pending, curve jumping, paradigm shifting, innovative, revolutionary new product that's well documented, bug free, fast and easy to use. Everybody says that. So cut the and get to the demo.

[B]

I love that. Do you got any more? I don't even know if I should say any words. Do you have any more? Keep a comment. Keep it coming, guy.

[A]

Okay, the third and last tip is always use stories. Always use stories. And, and, you know, facts you can argue against. But stories are much more powerful. So the story of how the editor in chief of the Atlantic was admitted to a signal group. The story of how your niece missed her period and is texting you. The story of how your son is asking for the Netflix password. These are stories, they are not facts. And so a story is much more relatable, much more credible, much more powerful. Now the flip side of this is you understand that if you're dealing with somebody who's a good marketer, salesperson or evangelist, they're going to use stories on you. So you need to be able to ask what's missing? So when you hear the story, and I'll give you a good example, when you hear a story, you just, the sheer power and simplicity of a story makes it very powerful. You need to be able to resist that. So when you're on the receiving end of this, you ask what's missing? And here's an example. Suppose that, suppose your, your nephew or your niece is now coming to you and said, you know, uncle, I know that Mark Zuckerberg, Bill Gates and Steve Jobs didn't go to college. They didn't finish college, Uncle. So I don't think a college degree is necessary. Look, the three most successful tech people never finish college. That's great story. It's very powerful, right? You can see how it's compelling story, but you have to ask what's missing. So when you hear a story like that, you say, okay, so you know, these three people, they became very successful. They didn't finish college. But what about all the people who didn't finish college, who didn't succeed? And perhaps even more importantly, what about the people who did finish college and did succeed? So you tell your niece or your nephew, when they tell you a story like that, do this little piece of information of research, go to Claude or Gemini or ChatGPT and ask the question, how many Fortune 500 CEOs have graduated from college? And you will find out 100% of Fortune 500 CEOs finished college. So maybe finishing college might be a good idea. Because the probability of you being the next Steve Jobs, Bill Gates, or Mark Zuckerberg. Zuckerberg is not that high.

[B]

I like that. Alrighty. So, guys, golden touch. Always do a demo and always use

[A]

stories and always resist stories.

[B]

Resist stories?

[A]

Well, I mean, you know, when you're receiving the story. Like, if somebody tells. Listen, Joel, somebody tells you 10 kids died because of the COVID vaccination. That doesn't mean you should conclude you shouldn't get vaccinated. You should ask, well, 10 kids died with the vaccination. How many kids would have died if they didn't get the vaccination? Right? I mean, you have to ask the other cases, not just the 10. Because 10 kids may have died with the vaccination, but maybe 10 million were saved because they got the vaccination.

[B]

So the tip is, I have to write it. I'm a nerd, dude. I gotta write it down in a bullet point. All right? The tip is all, like, don't take stories on their face value. Or the tip is to use stories in communication with evangelism. What's the tip?

[A]

It's both.

[B]

It's both. Okay. All right. Use stories and to get your point across because they're very effective. And most people, they just take it on face value. Also, if you're not an idiot or if you're trying to be less of an idiot, idiot.

[A]

Well, I mean, okay, here we'll get away from these emotionally charged things like Covid and vaccination. But let's suppose you go to your family party, right? You go to your family party and you have one of your relatives. He is 90 years old. He smokes a pack of cigarettes every day, right? So he tells the story, smoking doesn't cause cancer. I've been smoking a pack of cigarettes every day. Smoking doesn't kill you. So you hear that story, you say, oh, yeah, Uncle Jeb, he never died from smoking. He's 90 years old. He smokes a pack a day. I think I'm gonna smoke. In fact, I'm gonna tell my kids to smoke too. Maybe you should think about that story.

[B]

So dig deeper into the stories.

[A]

So we should.

[B]

We should dig deeper into them. You know, stories are seductive. They're so simple.

[A]

I know that you are smart enough to hold two conflicting ideas in your big brain. Those are two conflicting ideas. You use stories, but you also have to resist stories.

[B]

Well, you use them because they're so effective, and you have to resist them. Because they're so effective, everyone's using them.

[A]

Exactly.

[B]

Yeah. Gotta find the signal and the noise. Where can people buy the book? Where can people get it?

[A]

Okay, you can only get it on Amazon. And as I said, if you just send an email to. Everybody has something to hide at gmail dot com. I am literally, literally, I'm not making this up. I wish there was a way for an author to give books away of his own book, but there is no way. So the price of the book is a Grand swapping large. 99 cents on, on Kindle. You could just go to Amazon and just buy the book for 99 cents. But if you're such a tight ass and you're worried about your privacy, but not more than 99 cents worth, then you just send me an email and because I care about democracy and I care about your privacy and safety and security, I literally, I literally pay 99 cents for my own book and gift it to you because as I said, I am in the return phase of my life and so I want to give everybody a 99 cent book to help them be more private and secure.

[B]

Your. Well, I'm sure there's at least one Dave Ramsey fan who will take you up on that offer. Everyone else just buy it. It's great.

[A]

I don't care if you buy it. I'd be happy to give it to you. I just want you to use signal.

[B]

You should buy it. I mean it cost what, 20 to 50 grand? My books cost like 20 to 50 grand to produce and they're not free to produce.

[A]

You know, this, this book, Seriously dude, this book. I, I will spend 20,000 between the copy, editing the content, editing the layout and then because I am very cognizant of the needs for the Hispanic community, I am paying to translate it and lay out in Spanish. I want there to be a native Spanish version too. So yeah, I'll, I'll easily spend 20 grand and that doesn't count all the 99 cents I paid to give it to people who send the email. But you know, at the end of my life, I want to be able to say more than yeah, I made crypto successful and I assured that there was low, low, long term capital gains. I want to stand for more than that.

[B]

Thank you so much for listening and if you found this episode useful, please share it with a friend or a colleague who you think would get value from it. And if you have topics that you'd like to hear discussed on the podcast, either add me on LinkedIn or send me an email joeloderncto IO Every time I get an email or LinkedIn message, it absolutely makes my day and inspires me to keep going.