B (2:47)

I don't need the. Come on, guys. As Samantha Irby says, let the plumber fix the sink. I got it. So there's just all this baggage around it. But really, I mean, at heart, Aham and I just love each other so much, and I think we both kind of knew that we couldn't imagine a life without the other person. So, you know, but. But yeah, on some level, he wanted to give me that, like, big proposal, big wedding that I thought I would never get to have because it was very. It healed something in me.

C (3:22)

Yeah. Marriage was not, you know, sort of only about affirming the connection between the two of you. It was also this kind of almost like public stamp of approval. Does that track? Was it sort of like that?

B (3:35)

I mean, it feels disordered to say that, but I think. But, yeah, because, I mean, we contain multitudes. Right. And again, that's not why I got married. That would be crazy.

C (3:48)

No, I feel like I need to also zoom out and just, like, affirm that you guys also really fucking loved each other. Right. Like, there was this strong, beautiful connection.

B (3:58)

Yeah. I mean, you know, we're very different, but we're also, you know, from. From the first day, you know, we started dating, we were like, oh, that's my best friend. And then we just were never apart. Even when we tried to break up a couple times, we were still just, like, calling each other every day and being like, hello. You know, and we were very much, too, who say the same thing at the same time. We make the same joke at the same time. We do the same riff. It's. It's. It's alarming and off putting to others, except to those.

C (4:35)

And yet. Except to you.

B (4:37)

I mean, except to us.

C (4:39)

I. Two freaks. I mean, two freaks matching each other's freak. When you got married, what did you hope your future would look like?

B (4:47)

So I think I just imagined that we would, you know, stay on the sort of traditional track. I thought we would probably have a baby and have a. Buy a house and, you know, continue to work. We also work together a lot. Aham is an artist, and I work on his shows, and he helps me a lot with my work, with my writing. And, yeah, I think I sort of envisioned a. A classic, happy marriage. Like, I think that I thought we would just have a great time for the rest of our lives.

C (5:24)

That sounds great. That sounds. That sounds. I mean it. And I. It's interesting that you bring up the word classic in reference to your marriage because you have a new book out. It's called Adult Braces. And in this book, you share a piece of information about your relationship, your marriage to Aham. That was not. I Would say, quote unquote. Classic, right?

B (5:45)

Yes.

C (5:46)

You share the fact that Aham was non monogamous, correct?

B (5:50)

Yes. So we briefly broke up in 2011. Then it was a bad time. I write about it in shrill. Aham and I broke up. My dad died. It was horrible. A tree fell on my house. Then we got back together. But part of that was, Aham was like, you know, I. I've been divorced twice by age 27, and I feel like possessiveness and jealousy had a lot to do with both of those relationships collapsing. And I want us to be not together because we're trapped and locked together in a prison of love. Or, you know, he didn't say it like that, of course.

C (6:36)

Yeah. You're editorializing. You're a writer. That makes sense. Yeah.

B (6:40)

But he was like, I don't, I don't think, I don't think that monogamy is healthy for me.

C (6:47)

He has all these reasons which make intellectual sense. I'm like, I went to a liberal arts school. Totally. You know what I mean? But emotionally, how is this hitting you?

B (6:56)

Yeah, same for me. It made intellectual sense to me. And in fact, it had always made intellectual sense to me. I was like, I understand how this works and why people do this. I don't personally have the self esteem to. To cope with it.

C (7:12)

I felt this too. Yeah.

B (7:13)

Yeah. So my initial reaction was like, I was devastated. And I. Because I worked at the alt weekly, Dan Savage was my boss. It just, it felt like everyone was supposed to do it or else you were like, you were like a prude and a pioneer woman, of course. And I was like, why do I have to do that? Just because all these cool kids think it's better? Like, why can't I make my own choices? So our initial conversation was a lot of me crying and being like, I don't want anyone else.

C (7:49)

Was it presented as sort of like, we can get back together if we are non monogamous? Was it like a conditional thing? Okay.

B (7:55)

Basically, I think so. But it wasn't him saying, I'm gonna go out and date people. We're a couple who loves each other desperately getting back together. So this was not a moment when either of us was like, oh, I want to go out and find someone. El. We were ecstatic to be reuniting. Okay. So where we landed was, if we want to be together for the rest of our lives, who knows what's going to happen in 10 years, 20 years, who we're going to meet, how we're going to feel, and to lock in and say our feelings are never going to change and we're never going to have any interest in anyone else outside of this partnership. It's just not realistic. Once it was reframed as something that I could. Something that we were going to deal with eventually. And I love to procrastinate.

C (8:47)

That's interesting, though. You're kicking the can, basically, of this. Of this relationship. What definition framework.

B (8:53)

Huh? Which is so unfair to him because he really was telling me something that was. That's important to him. And I. I always heard it as an obstacle that I could, like, wear down and overcome. You know, like, I just need to be the best girlfriend so that he doesn't want this stupid thing anymore.

C (9:16)

Huh.

B (9:17)

And Aham. Aham tried so hard to get me to actually engage with this emotionally.

C (9:26)

How? How did he try?

B (9:30)

Oh, I just mean, he warned me. I think that my tendency to avoid hard things was toxic and was going to be a little bit poisonous in the relationship. And I do think it did slow damage because. Because then what happened was because we had this nebulous thing that I had kicked down the road until an unknown time. I was always dreading when was that time gonna come?

C (10:04)

Yep.

B (10:05)

So every time Aham initiated any kind of, like, really hard conversation, even if it was just like, you need to do the dishes right after you cook or whatever, I would react like someone was chasing me with a knife. You know, like I. I would.

C (10:24)

Every conversation was like, the big one, where he'd be like, I've met someone or I'm dating someone. Like that specter was always kind of looming for you.

B (10:31)

Yes.

C (10:32)

But then there comes a point, you write about this in your book, where you can't avoid it. Tell me about the moment you found out that Aham was dating someone else.

B (10:43)

2019. I'm recording my audiobook for my second book and I'm in Seattle. I had just gotten home from being away for six months, and I get a text while I'm recording my audiobook. Don't know why I had my phone on. Shouldn't have done that. And I. I find out that someone who was a fan of mine, who knew what Ahom looked like, had seen him kissing someone at a bar. And I just told the engineer that I had a family emergency and I had to go. And I went home and we talked for the rest of the night. And. And at this point, he was like. He had sort of come to the conclusion that we couldn't resolve this, which is why he went ahead and started dating this person. Because he, because I had been gone, I was, I had refused to talk to him about it and I had technically agreed to be non monogamous. And he was like, well I, I'm just gonna do what I need to do to feel like a person. I don't know.

C (12:03)

Did it feel like you were losing him? I want to understand. This thing you've been dreading is now happening.

B (12:09)

Yeah, I think it felt like I was losing him, but I, I was just determined to win. I wrote that's how I felt. I was like, you're being crazy. I'm the greatest person alive because I also have high self esteem in addition to low self esteem multitudes. I was like, what the do you think you're doing? That's crazy. I, I, I let myself be angry in every possible direction which was actually cathartic because I had been suppressing all those feelings for a really long time. You know what I mean? Like, yeah, because I had, because I had to be perfect girlfriend, perfect wife.

C (12:46)

So this wouldn't happen. So this thing that's happening wouldn't happen.

B (12:50)

Yes. So yeah, we had this like multi day fight that's also like very tender and sweet, you know, because we, we actually don't want to hurt each other.

C (13:01)

Yeah. I mean, at a certain point did you end up, it's a big sigh. As the days went on, did you ask more questions about this person that aham was seeing? Did you start to get curious?

B (13:15)

Nope. Well, I think I was like, don't tell me anything about this stupid person. I don't want to know. Like I was like a baby. I was, I was like full child self, you know what I mean? Like having a tantrum. I was not wearing my adult woman pants. I was, yeah, I was very much like, is she prettier than me? Do you love her more than me? You know, do you guys laugh at me?

C (13:45)

Do you remember what he said to that question?

B (13:48)

Yeah, he said no. You know, he said, he said, she's a really good person and, and you're just different. And he was like, you're my wife. Like I don't, I don't love anybody more than you, you know?

C (14:04)

Did that feel true to you in that moment?

B (14:07)

Yes. And I just didn't understand. I was like, man, we have, we found the best thing, you know, we, we did it like we're best friends and we get to hang out every day. What? Why do you want to fuck it up, dude?

C (14:24)

What more could you want? Yeah, yeah. Eventually you were kind of forced to reckon with the fact that this person Aham was dating was. Was a pretty big part of his life. Tell me what you found out and how that made you feel.

B (14:40)

So he told me that her name was Roya, and she was one of the artistic directors of a venue in Portland that had put on one of his shows. So I actually met her when they did the show there, and she was so nice. Like, I remember meeting her. I know she was, like, so small. She was like the tiniest little person. I am the biggest, loudest. Well, I'm not gonna be self deprecating, but I'm tall and I'm big, and I take up a lot of space and energy. And she was just like a tiny, little beautiful. She's like, kind of goth, you know?

C (15:24)

Yeah.

B (15:24)

Meanwhile, I'm like, I kind of dress like a clown. Just very much an inverse of me in a lot of ways. And of course, in ways that made me feel wildly insecure.

C (15:37)

So how did you. You found out Aham, you know, sat you down at one point and was like, I need to tell you more about who this person is.

B (15:44)

Yeah. Because her. Her best friend died, and it was one of those best friendships that's like family. And she was his primary caregiver during his illness, and it was just. Yeah. And she needed her support system there, and Aham was part of her support system. And Aham is a good person who cares about people really deeply, and he needed to go to Portland to be with her during these really hard weeks. And I remember being mad and being like, I'm not ready. And you never wait for me to be ready. You just do whatever you want to do. But then being like, what am I going to say? No, you can't go. You know, I don't want to be the kind of person that says someone important to you is in pain, unimaginable pain, and I'm going to sort of petulantly say, no, you need to stay here with me. You know, I don't want to be that person. And I simultaneously, I'm doing all this work in my own therapy, most of which is about me kind of remembering who I am not as part of a couple, because especially since I had set it up as the perfect wife. Challenge, difficulty level, impossible. I had really lost sight of who I was outside of that couple, because my job was to do the couple and do it the best I could and do, you know, and do it exactly how I thought Aham would want it. You know, aside from the one thing he told me he did want and so I was starting to wake up those muscles of being just Lindy, who is that? You know? And I was spending time with my friends more, and I was spending more time alone. And so he left. I was still uncomfortable and anxious, but,

C (18:12)

yeah, you knew for the first time where he was and he was with this other woman.

B (18:18)

Yeah, yeah. And I was like, I had to sort of imagine what they were doing. And basically he started going regularly, like maybe once a month. And it just got easier every time, you know? And I started to experiment with letting go. What if I do picture what they're doing? What if I do think about her? What if I looked at her picture on Instagram and thought about her as a person who's not an adversary to me? And the more I did that, it felt so much better than just being in denial and being scared and being fearful of losing control because you actually can't control other people. Should I be able to?

C (19:06)

Yes. Yeah. But the only person I can control is myself. Like, my one wild and precious life. I mean it. So you're have. You're doing this personal work, you're trying to figure out, like, who is Lindy. You're trying to also, like, see Lindy as a person, and you decide to embark on a kind of classic, I'd say, adventure of self discovery, the great American road trip. Tell me how this road trip factored into this work you were doing at this part of your life.

B (19:37)

Yeah, so. So Aham starts going to see Roya once a month. It gets easier and easier. Eventually I'm like, loving it. I'm like, oh, my God. I have a whole weekend to myself. I'm gonna do whatever I want. I'm gonna hang out with my friends. I'm gonna watch tv, I'm gonna get takeout. Like, it was great. And then he would come back and I'd be like, oh, my God, I missed you. And he was. He missed me. And it was so fun.

C (20:03)

This is a big change. This is progress.

B (20:06)

I honestly, like, I don't even actually know how to articulate how this happened, but it did. And. And a lot of it was just that let. That process of letting go. It was me letting go of fear and just. And having curiosity to see what would happen. And anyway, so then I get so addicted to that feeling of my time alone. I'm watching Aham go out and have his journey of self discovery, and I'm like, what's. Where's my fricking journey? You know? Yeah, I don't know that I want a boyfriend. But who am I, you know? I wanted to spend more time by myself. I felt stifled by routine all of a sudden. Where routine had always or. Or being at my being at home kind of cocooned had always been a thing that made me feel safe. And I started to be like, what if there's more to life than this, you know? Ah.

C (21:29)

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B (21:42)

It's no small miracle that we found each other.

C (21:45)

The final season of Outlander. Watch now only on Starz.

A (21:49)

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C (22:56)

You said that things started to change when you began to look at Roya and Aham's relationship from a place of curiosity. And it sounds like you're turning that curiosity onto yourself. Like, what more can I do? How can I grow? How can I push myself?

B (23:10)

Yeah. How. How can I what? What are some other ways I could be brave? So I woke up one day and I was like, aha, I gotta go. I was like, I'm gonna get. I said, I think I need to rent a van and go on a road trip by myself. And he was like, okay.

C (23:28)

It really just came to you like that? In a dream?

B (23:31)

Kind of, yeah. It was very. It came to me fully formed. Like I was suddenly like, I gotta rent a van and I have to drive to Florida. And I just wanted to set out into the unknown, which is exactly what I was doing. Inwardly. I also was starting to feel so confined and claustrophobic from having just spent basically two years non stop Working on my marriage and having everything be about my relationship. And I was like, I really, really wanted to spend some intensive time on my relationship with myself. I was like, can we just live for a while?

C (24:18)

What about me for once?

B (24:20)

Yeah, what about me for once? And so I, I just wanted to go.

C (24:25)

Was this something that I don't know, Lindy of five years prior would ever conceive of herself doing?

B (24:32)

No, no, absolutely not. Lindy of five years prior was desperate for Ahom to do activities with her. I just would never. And I would have been scared to leave him home alone. Like, you know, is he gonna fall in love with someone else while I'm gone? And what am I gonna do?

C (24:50)

Well, that's my question. That's my question. Cause a road trip sounds amazing, but it also does give Aham and Roya a lot of time to be together alone. Did that cross your mind?

B (25:00)

I'm sure it crossed my mind, but I didn't care. Cause I was so hyper focused on this thing that I wanted to do. And because I, I had made a lot of progress, I was like, great, spend time with Royal. When I'm gone, then I don't.

C (25:15)

That's very powerful.

B (25:16)

Yeah, it did feel powerful. And I don't want it to sound like I'm sort of rationalizing how to do non monogamy or not rationalizing, like convincing myself to do it.

C (25:34)

Hmm.

B (25:34)

Because Aham wants to do it at the beginning. Absolutely. I was doing that by this point when we've already been doing it and he's going away and I'm feeling this freedom and, and lightness and openness. I'm starting to be like, this is better for me. It's nice to have a husband break sometimes.

C (26:03)

Yeah. Yeah.

B (26:04)

You know, like it actually feels very true to me at this point that one person shouldn't be your whole life. And that doesn't mean you have to be in a relationship with other people or whatever, but you should be in a relationship with yourself for sure. And this isn't me convincing myself to do something that Aham wanted to do. At this point I really, I really liked it and I was curious to explore it more.

C (26:35)

What's your contact like with Aham while you're on the road?

B (26:40)

Contact is, I would say, sporadic but intense. But a kind of pivotal thing happened right before I left where Aham and I had like a little date, like little getaway. We went and stayed at a hotel for a night and it was really fun and like romantic and cute. And that night was the first time, I was like, tell me about Roya, like, in more detail. But, you know, he just described her, and I just let it not scare me. And then I was like, what does Roya think about me? And he was like, well, she has a crush on you. And I was like, excuse me?

C (27:16)

And this was before you went on the road trip. You were told that you had a crush? Well, and let's just say there's nothing more electric than finding out someone has a crush on you. Am I right? I mean, it's just. It's like the greatest gift in the world besides, I don't know, like, oh, commitment or love or whatever.

B (27:32)

I mean, it's just.

C (27:33)

It's like, how did that make you feel?

B (27:35)

It was very powerful. I was immediately like, oh, I. I like her a lot more all of a sudden.

C (27:41)

See? And that's what I was gonna say. There's no more surefire way to like someone more than figuring out that they like you.

B (27:48)

It's like, you're awesome.

C (27:49)

Yeah,

B (27:52)

exactly. I was like, wow, she sounds pretty cool. And I was like, yeah, it definitely. And that's. It's so funny because it's. What a narcissistic response to be like, oh, I like her all of a sudden.

C (28:06)

I mean, that's just the human also.

B (28:08)

Yeah, it's normal. It makes sense. I don't know if I have a crush on her, but.

C (28:13)

Yeah, like, I mean, no, I think that's a really. That's. It's a really important dynamic shift, actually, you know, because we talked before about how, you know, sort of nameless, faceless person that Aham was dating was threat level 100 for you, right? And now, you know, I mean, so much has already changed, but, like, to introduce this idea, at least, you know, in one direction, of attraction, of a crush. I mean, that. That changes this from threat to potentially desire or at least connection. And that feels. Yeah, that feels like something.

B (28:53)

And it. It was honestly the first time in like a year that I felt, I think, totally calm, you know? Cause she had just been this big cloud of mystery and suspicion. And I was like, how do I know that she's not trying to get rid of me so that you guys can be together? And she's out there somewhere. She's not out there thinking the vile stuff that is happening in my head. You know what I mean? She's out there thinking, oh, Lindy's beautiful. And she seems so smart and interesting. I would love to get to know Lindy. And I'm processing my changing feelings about Roya while I'm on the road trip, texting with Ahom, talking to him on the phone and being like. How do I even describe it? Because what's really happening is that I'm talking to a hom and being like, tell me more about Roya having a crush on me. Like, I'm, like, kind of fixated on this idea.

C (29:56)

Yeah.

B (29:57)

And I can't get it out of my head. And I'm like, you know, I start to get really curious, like, what are you guys doing? Who are you? Are you hanging out with any of our friends? Are you going to our favorite restaurants? What are you eating? Where are you staying? What's happening? You know, I just had this very organic fixation on kind of knowing what was.

C (30:19)

Yeah.

B (30:19)

What was up?

C (30:20)

In, like, a sexy way or in, like, a surveillance way?

B (30:25)

In, like, not a surveillance way.

C (30:27)

Yeah.

B (30:28)

I. I'm not gonna go so far as to say a sexy way.

C (30:31)

Sure, sure.

B (30:32)

But it was like a neutral way or just a. Just a. Just a curious way.

C (30:39)

I get it.

B (30:40)

You know, I just was like, what's up over there? Yeah.

A (30:44)

Yeah.

C (30:44)

You know, not feeling threatened by it. It sounds like curious, not threatened.

B (30:49)

And. And I think I started to feel so soothed by. I got. It's like I got addicted to that feeling of safety and I wanted to keep doing it, you know? Do you know what I mean? Like, I liked the feeling of not having a stab of panic when Aham brought up Roya's name. Because I had been able to, in this fear state for, like, a year, that someone was gonna take my life away. And I was like, all of a sudden, I wasn't having that anymore. And I was like, what is this new place? I wanna stay here. Where I feel. Suddenly I feel nothing. And not necessarily nothing. Like nothing with a hint of something nice.

C (31:34)

Yeah. I mean, it's this, like, triumphant nothing. You know what I mean? It's like. And I. You know, the circumstances of Aham and Roya's relationship haven't changed. If anything, they've intensified. And you're more clued in than ever before. And you're farther away than ever before. Right. So the safety you feel, that's you. I mean, you've created that safety. No.

B (31:58)

Yes, absolutely. And that's why it was different, I think. So the trip continues, and in my recollection, I'm talking to Aham more and more about Roya, and I don't remember specifically. And I bought a phone that has, like, no storage on it, so all my texts are Gone. So I can't look back, unfortunately. But I believe what happened was this. I bet Aham sent me like a sexy underwear pic of Roya with her consent. Because I think they were talking about me also because that's if you want to get me, if you say we've been talking about you. Oh, boy. In a good way. In a good way.

C (32:44)

In a good way.

B (32:44)

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Oh, I, because I definitely remember him saying, like, Roy and I have been talking about you a lot. So I, I, I, I'm sure he sent me like a cute pic of Roya being cute. And I was like, okay, you can tell her that that's a beautiful photo or whatever. I'm such, I'm such a dork. You may tell her that that is a beautiful photo.

C (33:06)

I mean, that's a way to sex. It's formal, but I'd say it works.

B (33:11)

Yeah, I, I, yeah. Side note, Lindy west, absolutely incapable of sexting. But so then I'm like, also throughout this, I'm reconnecting with Aham. I think in, in certain ways too. Like, it's fun to have like a long distance boyfriend that you can have flirty texts with. Like every part of, of separating myself from my old life and spending time alone is more fun and has kind of a new life and a new flavor. You know what I mean?

C (33:40)

Like, rocks.

B (33:42)

I know. It's like, so Ahab and I are flirting. I'm asking about Roya. We're having like, sexy text. It's cute. And then I was like, I think I was feeling sexy for once ever in my life. And I took like a cute picture in my underwear because also, I'm bored. I'm just alone every day, all day in a van, driving through Arkansas, whatever. So I sent Aham a cute picture in my underpants. And I was like, and I was like, I think you could show this to Roya if you want. And then he did. And then he was like, roya wants to know if she can text you about your picture. And I said, okay. And then she was like. And then she texted me and was like, aham sent me a beautiful picture of you. You look so sexy. Whatever. And I was like,

C (34:37)

You like fire react?

B (34:40)

Yeah, I, I was like, what am I doing this? And I knew that this was crazy. What am I doing? This is a crazy thing to be doing.

C (34:51)

Why? What's, what's, why what?

B (34:54)

Oh, well, I mean, I shouldn't say crazy.

C (34:59)

No, no, it's not even that. I'm quibbling the word I'm just like.

B (35:02)

No, I know, I know. Yeah. Just an unlikely thing to have happen for you.

C (35:09)

For you, for you. Because it's, it's what? It's, it's brave. It's provocative. Like, why?

B (35:15)

Yeah, I am not brave in. I'm brave in certain ways. In many ways I am not brave. And this is one of the ways in which I am not brave. I'm not. I, I, I. Sexually. Yeah, I guess so. Yeah. And also just in. I think that I make myself really vulnerable in my writing because actually I have a hard time being vulnerable in certain ways. So it's like a decoy. Like, it's like, oh, look how vulnerable I am over here about these things that I don't actually feel that vulnerable.

C (35:50)

Yeah. That I'm willing to share. Yeah.

B (35:52)

Right. And so then people, I get all this credit for being like so brave and vulnerable, but really I'm like very tightly tight, tightly wound and, and afraid and private. I'm very, very, very private. And so to open up to a new person. And I do. And I have weird baggage around sex. And I, and I, as I've mentioned many times, like, I really am afraid of the way people perceive my body. I don't, I have been conditioned to believe that viewing my body as a nightmare, like I don't want. And I feel safe with Aham. Because we've been together 10 years. I know that he loves me and he's seen my body, you know, in my 20s, 30s, and 40s, but it was, it's just like my, my biggest, scariest chasm that I, that I don't cross. And, but it felt so in keeping with the road trip itself. Like I was like, who fucking cares? Oh my God, can I just live and just do something impulsive that feels right to me in this moment and not think everything to death? And, and why do other people get to have vibrant, curious, exciting sex lives and romantic lives and connections with other people? And I deny myself that. Why do I just hide all the time? And why don't I just let myself live and just see what happens? And so I, so I did.

C (37:34)

This is. I am so charmed by that. And also it just feels like some of the most reflective pre sexy pic thoughts maybe someone's ever had. You know, like when I'm sending like a cute pic, I'm like, I look good ship it.

B (37:57)

You know what I mean?

C (37:57)

And you're like, what type of person am I?

B (38:02)

Existential spiral.

C (38:06)

All right, so, you know, you have this, you have this. I mean, reckonings over there. But it's like you send this thing. So what now it's like, okay, so we've all shared sexy pics with each other. That, that, that.

B (38:18)

I think it becomes clear that the next thing we need to do is like hop on a call and like discuss what the heck is going on. And so I'm driving through Kentucky. Aha. And Roya sent me. They were having a very terrifying heat wave in Seattle. It was like 111 degrees in Seattle.

C (38:41)

Oh my God.

B (38:42)

Here's what I remember. I stopped for gas. I stepped out of the van. Kentucky was like a sauna. Like, my glasses immediately fogged up. I'm sweating instantly. It's a nightmare. I'm pumping the gas. I look at my phone. There's like a selfie from a home and Roya sitting at a bar in Seattle. And I went to a Marriott and then Aham and Roya video called me and then I was like, are you guys okay? Are you. Are you dying of heat stroke? Like, was it hot, hot temperature or hot sexual?

C (39:21)

That I know it's hot in Kentucky and Seattle at this point. No. Was it hot? Like sexually? Yeah. Were you turned on?

B (39:28)

I think so. Yeah. There was like definitely incredible tension in the air. You know, it was like. I think, I think all of us were like, oh my God, oh my God, oh my God. And, and also, I don't want to make it sound easy because also there's still the part of me that's terrified. And this is the first time I'm confronted with like seeing the two of them together. And I'm away and they're together and you know, they're like entwined sitting at, at the bar in the air conditioning and, and, and so it's like inside me are two wolves. One is having the time of her life and is like so electrified by this. And the other one is, is definitely. Terrified. And you know, my, my intrusive thoughts were working overtime being like, this isn't real. They don't really want you. Look how he likes. Look how much he likes her more than he likes you. Look how affectionate he is with her. You know what I mean? Like, all the, all the meanest stuff that my can come up with is running on a little loop in the back, you know, and then I'm using my new skills to sort of let them pass through and stay in the moment with what's actually happening in front of me, which is that I'm feeling really connected with this person who's beautiful and Sweet and kind and funny and smart and. And who. Who loves. Aham. And I love a ham. And.

C (41:23)

Yeah.

B (41:23)

I don't know. It was a very complicated.

C (41:26)

Yeah.

B (41:28)

Video call.

C (41:30)

But also fun. And I.

B (41:31)

But also fun.

C (41:32)

And it's like all this stuff is happening under the hood, but then also in the present moment of that call. Can I ask you, like, you're feeling attracted to Roya sexually? It sounds like.

B (41:46)

Yes. Yeah, for sure.

C (41:47)

Had you been attracted to women in the past?

B (41:51)

I mean, kind of idly. Not like professionally, you know,

C (41:57)

minor league.

B (41:58)

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, I feel like. I feel like. I think maybe I thought everyone has some default baseline attraction to women because women are obviously the best. They're like, pretty and. Yeah. So I think I just was like, well, who doesn't kind of like women? Right? Yeah, everyone. So I never. I don't think I interrogated that much. My. I knew that I was sort of mostly straight, but also. But also I didn't really care that much. I was like, yeah, sure. I mean, yeah. Who's into me? What's. What's going on out there?

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C (44:39)

Eventually, the trip has to end after a month. When you came back to Seattle, was Roya there?

B (44:47)

No, she wasn't there. But I got back on July 7th or 8th, and Aham's birthday is July 30th, and Aham had a show on his birthday. He's a musician. And so I think I suggested, why doesn't Roya come up to Seattle for your birthday show? And then. And he was like, we'll see what happens. Oh. He was like, this is my. Oh, God. Yeah. I mean, I was like, I don't know. I don't know what's going to. You know, maybe I'll meet her again and. And I'll. I'll be like, no, I'm. I don't think so. I'm not. I can't. I'm not. I'm not into this. Whatever. I didn't know what was going to happen, but I. But we were still like, we. The group chat was popping off this whole time.

C (45:42)

Okay.

B (45:43)

So I was pretty sure that I was gonna like Roya in person, but I didn't know.

C (45:47)

Sure.

B (45:48)

And so she came up to Seattle. I picked her up at the train station. Aham was like, at soundcheck. I went by myself to pick her up also. My idea, I think. And I was like. She was instantly captivating. Like, she was just so pretty and so sunny and smiley and sunny for a goth cool. I know. She's like a little sunshine goth. It's like, it's a new. New kind of person. Just dropped sunshine goth and make that

C (46:26)

a brand that really soon it's gonna

B (46:28)

be st. And then. And then we went to the show, and it was fun, and, like, Roya and I stood together and, like, held hands, and she didn't know anyone there. And there were all these people from me and Aham's life, and I introduced her to all these people.

C (46:44)

How did you introduce her? This is my friend Roya. This is Aham's girlfriend, Roya.

B (46:48)

I don't. I don't remember. I think maybe I just was like, this is Roya.

C (46:52)

That feels easier. Yeah. Huh.

B (46:55)

It's a really good question. I'm not sure. Yeah, but then. But we were, like, holding hands, you know, we were definitely. Obviously doing something.

C (47:07)

Yeah.

B (47:08)

Then we went to a bar after the show, and Roy and I were sitting next to each other talking, and then some drunk guy Came up and like grabbed her arm and was like, oh, cool tattoo, you know, and did that thing. Disgusting man. Thing of like, a woman having tattoos means that you can touch her. And he grabbed her and I was like, I'm going to fucking kill that guy. Like, I had this protective feeling of like, don't you fucking touch her. Like, what the fuck is wrong? Like, I, I wanted to like fight this man and I stood up and I was like, we're fine, thank you. Like, I like kind of like bodied him away from us.

C (47:54)

What did, what did that to me? This is what I'm hearing you. This night was you realizing like, oh, it's on and I want this. Yes.

B (48:03)

Like, you know, I, of course, I might have done that for any, you know, friend of mine, but the feeling I had was like, that's my girlfriend, you know, like, don't touch her. Why would you think you can just touch her? Yeah. And then we went to the hotel and we had sex and it was really fun.

C (48:25)

The three of you or just the two of you?

B (48:27)

The three of us. And it was really fun and hot and then. But I'm skipping over that because I don't like to talk about sex.

C (48:33)

Sure, sure.

B (48:34)

And then, and then the cutest part of the night is like, I don't know, Aham has insomnia and is like never asleep. But just like Roya and I like Roya fell asleep in my arms and we slept the whole night and I was like, why was this so comfortable? You know why this was so like sweet and peaceful and easy and safe.

C (48:58)

I get it though. Yeah.

B (49:00)

Sleeping in a bed with a new person. And don't get me started on three people in a bed. Too many people for a bed.

C (49:07)

But even so, this first night, like

B (49:10)

you slept well and it felt like, it just felt like a sign of something being right.

C (49:19)

In 2022, you, AHAM and Roya sort of publicly announce what's happening in your relationship. Can you tell me about that?

B (49:33)

So by early 2022, we were a romantic triad. We didn't really know how to launch because it feels like you shouldn't have to. Like, it felt intrusive and stressful and I felt resentful about it. I didn't want to have to, I don't know, like, what? Why do I have to explain my life to people? But you know, it really was eye opening to me how angry people are about non monogamy. And I think it's because everyone thinks that if it becomes normalized, then their husband is going to say now I need to have a girlfriend. And I just want to say that you don't have to do that.

C (50:19)

Right. It would be optional if it were to become the law of the land or whatever.

B (50:23)

Yeah, it. Look, I, I wasn't looking for it, but it found me. And so I, I relate because I, I too had that fear and it came true. Except what I found on the other side was a way better life than before. Wow. Just way for. For me.

C (50:41)

Yeah.

B (50:43)

I just feel so much more freedom for myself. I have two people who love me instead of one. You know, it occurred to me that maybe I don't know about Roya because she's very stable, but I think Ahom and I both, as erratic artists, both of us may be a two man job. You know, like, I think, like, it's nice to have another person to help me love Aham. And I know that I also need a lot of love and validation and support, you know, and it's just really, really just three people that live in a house instead of two and we like all help with the dishes.

C (51:39)

That sounds kind of nice.

B (51:41)

Yes. So we're all three together still in now. It's 2026 and it really started like as soon as I got back from wow, my road trip and basically started on a birthday. So we're, we're, we're into year five.

C (51:58)

Amazing. Congratulations.

B (52:00)

Thank you.

C (52:02)

Earlier on in our, at the beginning of our conversation, actually, when I asked you, you and Aham had just gotten married and I was like, what future did you want? And you described that you were looking forward to a sort of classic marriage. How do you feel about that now?

B (52:19)

I feel like I customized my life to something that is the thing that I want and, and swapped that in. You know, I, I don't want to chase an ideal that someone else made up. It really, that's what this feels like to me. It feels like I, I customized it. I customized marriage to, to the specifications that are fun and fulfilling to me. So I, I don't really think about it anymore. And it just like feels like things found their way to where we needed to be and. No, no, that's so passive. We worked really hard and created the life that we wanted.

C (53:08)

Lindy west, my goodness. Thank you so much for this conversation.

B (53:12)

Oh, my God, thank you. This was so fun.

C (53:21)

Lindy West's book, Adult Driving Myself Sane comes out on March 10th. The Modern Love team is Davis Land, Elisa Gutierrez, Emily Lang, Jen Poyant, Lynn Levy, Reeva Goldberg and Sarah Curtis. This episode was produced by Reva Goldberg. It was edited by Lynn Levy and Jen Poyant. Our mix engineer was Daniel Ramirez, and we had studio support from Nick Pittman. Original music in this episode by Diane Wong, Pat McCusker, Roman Nimisto, and Dan Powell. Dan also composed our theme music. The Modern Love column is edited by Daniel Jones, and Mia Lee is the editor of Modern Love Projects. If you'd like to submit an essay or a tiny love story to the New York Times, we've got those instructions in our Show Notes. I'm Anna Martin. Thanks for listening. So we're breaking up. Why? You're a great fitness app, but I've forgotten about you. What's your name again?

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