← Modern Wisdom
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- [00:00]
A
Why did you get deep throated by confetti?
- [00:05]
B
That is up to date research right there. Yeah, I respect that.
- [00:09]
C
Yeah. So, yeah, Gabe really crushes it with our content and comes up with some awesome ideas and we kind of pitch some and throw it into a pot and. And he. We came in for a content day and wrote this whole script up and it was for this giveaway we were doing and he had written in the script that he was going to get pied in the face. And then Dylan shows up and I don't know, he just changed his mind on the spot. Was like, yeah, Dylan's going to get pied.
- [00:31]
B
I got to be the guy, the camera. So someone else has got to take the pie. So we pill. We. We pied Dylan in the face quite a bit. And from, from that night, Dylan plotted his revenge for pie and confetti in Eric's face.
- [00:46]
C
Yeah, And I got a, you know, shout out. We came as Romans because they went along with it. We get into their trailer and I get a text and they have this ritual before their show. It's whiskey time. And they go, you know, have this little ritual and like, get to the trailer now. Whiskey time. So I'm walking in going, whiskey time, whiskey time. Piece pied again. And now I can't see and my mouth's open and I'm just like, whiskey time. And as soon as I said time, I couldn't see anything. I just got a mouthful of I didn't know what. And then, yeah, I couldn't breathe for a little bit and the uvula in the back of my throat turned into a disco ball. It was like.
- [01:19]
B
It was pretty cool. Your autobiography of I don't know what.
- [01:26]
C
I trademarked that. I'm taking that.
- [01:28]
A
Yeah, well, I don't know, man. I feel like having a confetti bukkake is a good way to start a show.
- [01:36]
C
Yeah, yeah. I think it might have to be a ritual. Just not on me this time. Dylan, you. You're owed one.
- [01:41]
B
There's going to be some behind the scenes warfare for sure. This will. This will start a two year war.
- [01:47]
A
Okay. This is the beginning of a vicious retributive cycle.
- [01:52]
B
Yes.
- [01:53]
A
I want to know what you guys make of what's happening with the rock and metal scene at the moment. Because a lot of artists are rethinking touring. There's some reports that have come out recently that I've read pop, hip hop, country, little touch and go, some in decline, and certainly if you aggregate it, a lot in decline. But rock touring Seems to be bigger than ever. So give me your thoughts. Like you guys been around for a minute?
- [02:21]
C
Yeah.
- [02:22]
A
What do you make of the arc of alternative and heavy music and stuff like that?
- [02:28]
C
Yeah, I think, I think, you know, rock and metal, we'll call it modern metal, is just in such a. It feels like a boom right now. Resurgence. Just having chats with friends and it's like, you know, I'm 34, but back when I was like 15, 16, 17, I didn't have the funds to go out and see my favorite bands come through Detroit or, or whatever it may be and, and now that were of the age and have some disposable income. When these bands do these 20 year anniversary shows and, and you know, come back around and they have this lineup of all these other bands that you may have grew up listening to on top of having some of these new bands. And it kind of just appeals to our generation. And then, you know, I don't have any kids, but I can imagine my kids, the next generation, you know, it's like a family affair. So they're going out and seeing bands like, I mean, we just played when we were Young and Blink 182 and panic at the Disco or headlining and.
- [03:23]
A
Then basically back Sunday, brand new, the.
- [03:26]
C
Used man, that lineup was just stacked. But now you go out there and you see kids that are like 15 to 18, and then you see dudes our age and older that are out there all in the crowd. And I don't know, I think there's a bit of nostalgia. I think there's. Yeah, I don't, I don't know.
- [03:42]
A
It's not just throwback, right?
- [03:43]
C
No, no.
- [03:44]
A
All new bands with new albums, new music coming out all the time too.
- [03:48]
B
I think people are pretty. I don't. I don't know if desperate is the right word, but I'll use it. Desperate for experiences. And I think like pop concerts and all that stuff is like sick. You get to see your favorite pop artists, but the reality is how that music is produced is very. Tracks heavy. Like a lot of these artists go on stage, it's just them, they have no band playing instruments. And I think it's like a combination of like, you want to see a little bit of that risk factor of like a band really playing and you might see them mess up. And that's kind of interesting. But also like in the rock and the metal community scene in particular, I think audience engagement is actually key to the experience. Whether that's crowd surfing, mosh pits, whatever that is. As opposed to if you're gonna go see a pop artist or whoever, you're kind of just sitting there and it's fun, it's cool. Like I've been to pop pop shows and it's fun, but metal and rock, it's a little bit more visceral and with everyone behind computers all day, it's fun to get punched in the face and to like scream your favorite songs at the same time. Makes you feel alive a little bit, I think.
- [04:58]
C
And I think to. To your point too, with the pop and everything is like. It just, it sounds just like the record. Which is. Which is great. But you know, there's something about that like push and pull of the live experience of the band all playing together and. And I think there's a little bit of that on top of that too.
- [05:16]
B
Yeah.
- [05:17]
A
Especially if you love a track. You love a band and they play your favorite track, but there's a twist on it. Oh, maybe there's a longer solo. Maybe they've added an additional chorus at the end. Maybe just the way that the singer that night decides to interpret a way to say the vocals sticks in your mind. I remember going seeing bands like Bring Me In Newcastle when they first started doing moderate sized theaters and they played a Halloween show. It was just after Jordan had joined the band and I'd seen an opportunity, kind of like an ex ugly girl who's just had a glow up. I saw the opportunity to befriend Jordan cause he was brand new to the band and he was having some problem with Ableton. I messaged him about it on Twitter. We became friends and he said, yeah, why don't you come to the show that's happening at the O2 now. Who's on Halloween? And they came out fully face painted up as skeletons. They played the whole show as skeletons. And I remember like watching that show from the back and thinking so many of the songs that I knew really well just had little twists and adaptations that had been made. And that was great because it is a unique experience. And I guess. Well actually if you were to say that from the pop side, who. Who nearly fucking killed that was it Beyonce that nearly got killed by a car that was over the top of a. Flying over the top of the. I swear it was. Beyonce was doing a show and she's one of those like floating stage things that, you know, goes right over the crowd and everyone gets to look up. I'm pretty sure that some shit snapped and like imagine if you were the guy that killed Beyonce. You put the carabiner on wrong or something like that. Um, my point being, you do get to see some stuff at pop shows. Yeah. Um. I guess sometimes people go upside down when they drum, but that's really kind of the pinnacle of it from, like, a show experience. Yeah. There's a catwalk. Maybe there's some cool blocking, maybe there's not. Whatever. Yeah. It suggests that there's something about rock and heavy music that you get out of that show that you can't recreate with Pink flying around a stadium or. Or the Jonas Brothers with 20 people on stage or whatever it might be.
- [07:32]
B
Yeah, yeah, I think you're right. I think, like, pop, you're able to do the spectacle a little bit more. You can have Pink. Yeah. Doing trapeze over the. Over the audience. It's sick. Like, I. I would love if Eric did the trap.
- [07:44]
C
I don't know about that.
- [07:46]
A
You're built for the trapeze. Yeah. Am I? Yeah. You have the exact body shape of a trapeze.
- [07:50]
C
Oh, God.
- [07:51]
B
I also think, like, from a. From a songwriting perspective, like, at least when I was growing up, metal was all about, like, how heavy can you make it? And I still think that's, like, part of it. But I think now more than ever, metal and pop are fusing in a lot of ways and fusing in a way that's done very well. Like, I think people have tried it a lot where it's like they'll have these heavy breakdowns and they'll go into a very melodic chorus, but it just never, like, really meshes. But, you know, you've got bands who are kind of taking these sounds and putting them all together, like, you know, Sleep Token, Bad Omens, those. All those bands who are really exploding. I mean, my theory is that they're exploding because they've mastered melody so much, and at the end of the day, people want to listen to a song that maybe makes them feel a certain way, gives them energy at the gym or whatever, but without a melodic chorus. Not all the time, but a lot of the time, they're. It's not going to get stuck in their head. They're not going to come back to it. Don't get me wrong, I'm at the gym sometimes listening to Ass Beaters, and.
- [08:51]
A
I just want to like Job For a Cowboy.
- [08:53]
B
Yeah. Yeah. I just want to go, like, super hard. And that's really fun, too. And even those bands are growing, too. So it's almost like. I don't know if these bands. All the way at the top Are just kind of bringing the whole thing up with them, you know?
- [09:05]
A
Yeah, definitely the verse, chorus, kind of pop structure of a song with some melody. I mean, say what you want about sleep Token dude, Caramel is one of the catchiest.
- [09:15]
B
Dude, it's so good.
- [09:17]
A
Fucking hooks maybe of all time of that genre. It is so sticky.
- [09:25]
C
That's fun. I like that.
- [09:27]
A
It's just. It really. You can't get out of your head the first time that you hear that. So, yeah, I think you're right. And it makes it radio friendly. It makes it like sort of chart friendly. Yeah.
- [09:37]
B
And it's almost like, you know, I just talked about how so many bands are getting better at blending, but sometimes when you are like, I don't actually care about blending it, like, that's a perfect example of a song where the first three fourths of that song is a pop song, really done well. And then they're just like. And now we're just going to go into like the heaviest shit we've ever done ever. Right. And it's like sicker because it didn't even try to, like, meld them. It's just like, here's this and then here's this. And what a fun journey for everyone to be on. Yeah. It's like you're. You're really trying something. I think more than. I don't know. I don't want to be like metal versus other genres.
- [10:15]
C
But it's something about too like you blows your expectations out. Like, what. What you were. You got three fourths of the way through the song. You're like, okay, I kind of get where it's going. Then. Oh, man. There's this switch up at the end. And, you know, I think when bands do that very well, it's like you have the listener on the edge of the seat. You know, you don't know what to expect. You get halfway through the song and you're like, okay, this is cool. And then all of a sudden the bridge comes or the breakdown comes with the outro, whatever it is. There's. I. You know, I don't see that much. And you see that in hip hop a bit, but don't really see that in. In pop. I feel like pop and country. It's just like you get 30 seconds of the song, you kind of know what you're gonna get.
- [10:51]
A
Very rarely surprised.
- [10:52]
C
Right? Right.
- [10:53]
B
The final theory is that maybe we're all just getting a little more fucked up and into like these things that just make us feel like, viscerally like, I feel like horror movies. I don't watch horror movies, but like, I feel like those are on the rise also. And like, almost the more messed up they are, the more popular they get. Like.
- [11:14]
A
Do you think the messaging. Yeah, the messaging of metal is tapping into an emotion that's difficult for people to find catharsis with elsewhere?
- [11:24]
C
Yeah, I, Yeah, I think so. Some of these, like, very heavy metal bands and like just, you know, you look at the lyrics or listen lyrics, it's just like very up and aggressive and I think it's just a healthy way to, you know, it's. It's human emotion. It's, it's, it's, you know, you're feeling that. It's just a healthy way. I feel like to get that out, especially when you're in a. A small club with 200 people listening to just ass beater breakdowns over and over and over, just screaming about the most, like, dark, dark message. Dark, dark stuff. You know, like the Acacia Strain is one band that had some like, hateful lyrics back in the day. And it's just, you know, I don't feel that way. I don't feel like, you know, chopping people up or whatever, Cannibal Corpse or anything like that. But to feel, to feel that health in a healthy way, I guess, is something I think especially elevated.
- [12:16]
A
If you look at like a sleep token or about omens now, the message is just like poetic emo, right? It's Ohio is for lovers for 2025. Yeah. You know, like, I'm outside of your window like that. It's that sad, Nicky FME type thing that we all grew up listening to.
- [12:36]
C
Yes.
- [12:38]
A
But just like significantly elevated with much more sophisticated production. But it still speaks to. Huh. I have challenges and sometimes they're hard and nobody understands me and this is difficult and I don't know what I'm doing. And there is pressure and I'm growing up and things are changing. It's like timeless modern problems.
- [12:59]
B
Yeah. Yeah. I feel like I had the gift of reconnecting with the emotion of metal this year in particular, because I'll be honest, like, I've been in this band for eight years and this point, I'm 33 years old and I'm like, yeah, you know, like the, the emotions that I had when I was 14 are, are different now.
- [13:20]
A
Right.
- [13:20]
B
And I'm kind of like, am I going to sing about being really stressed about work and, you know, being married.
- [13:26]
A
For a little messages?
- [13:28]
B
Yeah, dude. Ex. My inbox is a nightmare. But, man, I think for honestly, most of us in the band, we've had one individually. Some of the hardest years that at least that I've ever had in my life of. Yeah, I mean I lost.
- [13:47]
A
We.
- [13:47]
B
We lost our. Our manager, our booking agent. He died tragically in a. In a plane accident two days later. I lost my grandpa. One week later, someone broke into my house while I was sleeping and I mean many other things that I probably can't really get into, but I, I feel like it took me to low places where I. It was more than just like heavy music is fun at the gym and it's like I viscerally my, my emotions are viscerally connecting with this music. And it was a gift in a lot of ways because allowed me to see through like the fans eyes of what they're experiencing when they're hearing this music. Because again, 33, I'm like, yeah, I'm just, hey, I like the song. Song's cool. But I'm, I'm a drummer. I'm not always listening to lyrics and like connecting. But yeah, I feel like I got to do that this year more so. And I do think like metal and rock has a little bit more of that, those themes to connect with.
- [14:45]
A
Especially if you're getting kicked in the nuts by life, which, you know, if everything's going great and Grammy nominations and we're on the road and ticket sales are going up, you know, how much are you connecting with the. It's kind of the like golden prison, like velvet fucking handcuffs thing that podcasters or comedians get accused of. Right? You know, if you're a comedian. Whitney Cumming's got this great line where she says in order for art to imitate life, you have to live a life. This is why you can tell when comedians are getting too successful, because all they talk about are airports, dinners and shows, because that's all they know. If you're touring 200 days out of the year, what life have you got to inject into the art? And I guess for you guys as well, this is my problem with fucking Luke Combs, man. I love that guy's music so much. He was the person that got me into. He was the soundtrack to 2019, which was the year I decided I wanted to move to America. But his music to me has got less resonant linearly as his life's got better. Yeah, I'm like, I fuck, do some cocaine, get in a fight or lose a leg or something. Like I need some. You know, I just want a little bit of sort of grace. It's like, you know, everything's going great, and I'm getting a bit older, and my dad's older than me, but he's really lovely. And my wife loves me and my kid loves me. I'm like, luke, come on, man. Yeah. And that's not to say that you can't make music from a happy place, but that. I don't know, there's something about the friction, I think, that causes people to dig a little bit deeper. Like, when you're going against the grain of life, it seems like people tap into emotion a little bit more acutely.
- [16:30]
B
100%.
- [16:31]
C
Yeah. I think. I think on this record for us, there's a few songs that I had to go back and, like, look at these events or these situations or these difficult times I had in the past and pick open some scabs that didn't really fully heal. And. And that. That also is finding. Finding inspiration and looking back on some difficult times and hard times that I really haven't had, you know, any therapy to get through and just kind of just let it go for. For three or four years. So that's, you know, it's.
- [17:05]
B
It's not.
- [17:06]
C
Doesn't always have to be about what's going on in your life. Right. Look back and. And really, you know, someone put it once. I can't remember how they worded it, but it takes some time to look back and fully have a. A full thought or, you know, fully grasp what you went through. And that. That's something too. If I'm not. You know, we're trying to draw from the well of inspiration and looking back on a past failed relationship or, you know, past. You know, you want to call it trauma to. To dig at those. And. And really, it's very important for us to write music and every song have come from something that has some real emotion and can be relatable to someone. And yeah, I think. I think that is a big challenge for artists when they start getting bigger and, you know, they're playing arenas and. And, you know, ticket sales are going through the roof, and like you said, Grammy, and I was all this stuff, and it's hard to be relatable. And that's what. You know, growing up, I took a lot out of music, and I found, you know, a lot of things to relate to. And when I was a, you know, teenager going through, like, all the world hates me and no one loves me, and. And, you know, once you get to that level, like, how. How do you. How do you still write music to relate to your Fans and, and yeah, for me specifically it was like going back and like digging through some things. I just didn't work out, you know.
- [18:21]
B
And I, I, yeah, we'll get back.
- [18:24]
A
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- [20:52]
C
Yeah, yeah, I. I think being with these guys for the last 10, 11 so years, it's, it's. That was a huge plus to sit down in a room and be like, well, okay, we start working on an instrumental first song, let's say. And it's kind of pulling out this emotion and, you know, pull out some lyric notes and okay, this. This line that I wrote a while ago, this kind of feels like it matches the mood of the instrumental. And. Okay, well, when I was in this headspace and. And there's certain songs we sat down, I was like, you know, I. I think I can really pull from this. And, you know, maybe let's say it was a. A bad relationship I was going through years ago, and, you know, they were around me when that was going on, so it's not like, super foreign to them and sit down and kind of like, write some lyrics, tell them, this is kind of what I was feeling. This is kind of what I was, what I was going through. And, and if you can tap into that and you have something similar, like bounce some ideas off each other and kind of like, we all kind of feel there's. Everyone's got, you know, unique stories, but there's some overlap. And if you can tap into that and. And help, you know, generate some lyrics out of that, you know, I'm sure there's going to be something that overlaps. So, you know, I'm just thinking one song specifically, but how do you.
- [22:00]
A
Have you ever contributed any lyrics ever?
- [22:03]
B
Maybe a single word? Yeah. So we. So we joke that we are business metal. And so that translates to the writing process as well, where it's like we kind of have these different departments, right? So me and John, I would say we're more in the instrumental department because I. I'm not trying to play in a sandbox that I don't belong in. You know, I'm like, hey, I grew up, like, I played in so many bands, and even then it's like, I can write some, like, cool instrumental parts or, like, suggest cool things and obviously play drums well and write cool Drum parts. I'm not a poet. I'm not, like, I'm happy to talk about my feelings, but if you're, like, now make it, like, artistic. Like, I can hit things hard. That's my art. And so, yeah, and then Steve and Eric are really good at, like. Yeah, like, to Eric's point, me and John, really, all of us in the room, too, contribute to the instrumental, but might set a vibe. And that vibe might create an emotion in Steve or Eric of something that they've been dealing with in the past or recently. And the two of them will, like, will almost sometimes separate. The two of them will, like, go in a different part of the room and just go back and forth. And sometimes they'll be Eric, like, here's what I'm trying to say. And the two of them will try to figure out how do we get to say that in the most artistic way possible or the most authentic way possible. And then, meanwhile, me and John will try to keep laying down, like, the foundation and come up with parts that we think are cool and then kind of come back together. And, yeah, there are some times where I'm just sitting there, like, watching them do their thing. And there are some times where Eric's just sitting there, like, watching me be like, okay, move the snare drum over one note and then hit this symbol. Like the. You know, it's like. It can get very tedious, but, yeah, it's departmental, for sure.
- [23:46]
A
When you. When any band creates something deeply emotional and then performs it a few hundred or thousand times, it still resonate in the same way. Does that drop over time? Does it heal you? Does it reopen old wounds?
- [24:03]
C
Yeah, that's a great question. I think there's different songs and different points in my life and different performances. Let's say that, you know, some of these new songs we just started playing, I have been like, oh, God. All right, don't mess up the lyrics. Remember, this is the first versus second. Okay, here's the note you're hitting. And. And I. I lose that for a moment. But, yeah, there's a certain point in the. In the tour that you start playing that song that I'm like. I'm reconnecting with it. And then after, you know, a couple tours, you know, sometimes some of these songs are, like, emotionally disconnected. And I'm going through the performance, and there's been some times where I look out and I see, you know, someone sobbing to a song, and then I'm, like, brought back immediately to, like, the emotion that I was feeling. In it and. And then all of a sudden then I have a new. A new connection to it again. And I'd like to think after that I performed the song a little bit better for the rest of the tour, but.
- [24:57]
A
So you feel this is an interesting one. I was talking to Johnny Frank about this. So Bill Murray got that new More Than Hate track and they have just started performing it live, I think only came out maybe six weeks ago, eight weeks ago, something like that. And I was talking to him last week in Dallas and he said, dude, I gotta be honest, like when I'm performing the track, I'm so focused on the performance because I've done it live like 15 times and that's not a lot. That sounds like a lot, but that's not a lot.
- [25:25]
C
Yeah.
- [25:26]
A
So he is still finding new ways to mess up and he doesn't know all of the potential pitfalls and that I never really realized. Well, fuck, like even if you've done a bunch of run throughs and rehearsals or whatever, and even if you added half an hour on soundcheck so that you can like run new bits a few times over and over, the difference of okay, and where am I gonna be on the stage and what's gonna go on? So yeah, I guess when. This is something I never considered as an audience member and I hope I don't screw up everybody's ticket sales here. But if a band is touring a new album and you have the choice between being at the start of the tour and being a little bit deeper into it, I think it's probably a good idea to push your tickets. You know, you can choose between whether the Dallas or Houston show, but for some reason because of the routing, they're coming to Houston four weeks later. Like, do you go to the. Maybe you go to the second one. Maybe they're a bit tighter by then. Maybe they know the tracks a little bit more.
- [26:21]
B
Yeah, yeah. I mean there's also some excitement to being there in the early and seeing us like mess up and try like to do our best, you know. Yeah, I think, man, it's like such an interesting balance of like tour life is exhausting. It's like you might start at a hundred percent. I mean I'm, you know this way more than I do even with all the you're dealing with. But like you might start at 100 and then, okay, the shows are very physical and then you're sleeping on a tour bus very poorly and then the shows are more physical and you're sleeping worse and it's like by the end of the tour I might have 30% in the tank and I'm working three times as hard to play the same part. So it's kind of this thing that.
- [27:09]
A
You'Ve got to balance the experience with the set with the level of gas left in the tank.
- [27:15]
B
And also what you have in the earlier parts of the tour is adrenaline, which also will just like push you.
- [27:22]
A
Most of fatigue and resentment and boredom and.
- [27:24]
B
Exactly. Because yeah, then not only are you more fatigued, but you also are low on adrenaline because you're like, well, I'm kind of bored now. I know how to play everything.
- [27:31]
A
Yeah, I almost knew.
- [27:33]
B
Yeah, I want that like shot of adrenaline. It would help me get through this physically. So it's a, it's a toss up a little bit there.
- [27:41]
A
Going back to the metal world of sort of rock ascendancy that we're seeing at the moment, do you think that you need to be really talented to be a sort of world touring alternative artist? Now how. Basically how much of it is talent? How much can you ride off the back of social media hype and good marketing?
- [28:04]
C
I had no talent when I was starting this thing. I didn't belong out here, man. I just took like, I feel like every room I was in, I was, I had this mentality. Just be a sponge, just soak up as much as you can. And I think that got me through the first, you know, years of touring and all that. But I do, I do think it takes, you know, you, you can go in off the hype and off the tick tocks and off all that, but you have to quickly figure your out real fast if you're up on stage and, and there's so many variables. You're not just posting a video, you playing. There's so many variables of, of a live set and I mean even like the thing where I'm looking out in a crowd and I see up in the front row and someone doesn't know the words to the song and they're just, you know, fish mouth and like just random lyrics. I I up lyrics because I was looking at that guy, I was like.
- [28:59]
B
What is he saying?
- [29:00]
C
Oh, what am I saying? Oh, what verse am I in?
- [29:03]
A
Where am I?
- [29:04]
C
You know? But yeah, yeah, I think there's, man, I think there's a good mix. You.
- [29:12]
A
It'S unforgiving then in that regard, like the, the hype can kind of only carry you so far.
- [29:16]
B
Yeah, I'd argue that you need a good product. Right. So like you can first of all, I'd argue that you need a lot of talent to be good at marketing and to. Because you're not the. The labels and all that, like, they, they will provide that for you. But, like, I ultimately think the bands that are doing the best are the ones who understand how to market themselves. So one, I'd argue that's a skill if the product is shitty, right? Like, Chris, if this podcast sucks, but you're really good at marketing, like, sure, you're gonna get it in front of a few more people, but at the end of the day, people aren't gonna come back. And now you're working your ass off to just market a shitty product, right? That's not really gonna work. So, like, I. I do think, especially in today's landscape, like, how it used to be is bands would get discovered by a label, they explode. Like, it's very. It was very gatekept, right? And. But if you were through, you were through and you. All you had to do is like, show up and play music. And now you could upload a song to Spotify, right now, while we're having this conversation, put in a prompt into AI and then upload it to Spotify, right? So, like, the landscape is more competitive than ever, which I think means that bands who are not always, like, there's plenty of very talented bands who don't get traction, but it's very competitive. You need to have, like, very good songs, very good marketing. Like, you have to be more well rounded than ever, as opposed to, hey, I'm just like a good musician. That might not really get you noticed much.
- [30:46]
A
What do you make of the advent of AI artists?
- [30:50]
C
Oh, man, don't get me started. I.
- [30:55]
B
It's.
- [30:55]
C
It's. It's a little frightening, man. You know, just came across a friend of mine, went on a rant and posted all these bands on Spotify that were, you know, AI bands. And whether it's a band that's feeding prompts and getting it and playing it, or to. It's one guy that just used chat, GPT, grok, whatever, to create everything. And then you go look at the monthly listeners, and there's 700,000 monthly listeners. And it's. It's not the fear that someone's gonna go, I'd rather listen to this AI band over, you know, a real human band. It's the fact that it's just gonna get slipped into playlisting and it's just gonna be on your playlist and it's just gonna. Just accumulate more and more of all these other fake bands. And by the time you go and look through your playlist you're like, oh, who's this? Who's this, who's this? And there's no real musicians. But my ultimate worry is that, you know, who's to say that someone who owns a streaming platform doesn't just start making music off AI himself or herself and, and feeding it into the playlisting. And now there's even less of the pie. You know, artists are getting, you know, fractions of a penny on the dollar for streams. Well now that those playlists that these bands are fighting hard for, who's to say the, the CEOs of, you know, Apple Music, Spotify, title, whatever, aren't just making their own music, feed it into the algorithm, putting in the place, you know, into the playlist thing. And now how are we supposed to fight that?
- [32:29]
A
It'll be like OnlyFans owning the AI girlfriend generator. Yeah, you've got the distribution and you've got the source material as well.
- [32:37]
B
100 yeah, it's a tricky balance because in one way I'm like, you can't very difficult to stop a train that's already moving. Right. But then also kind of like what I was talking about with concerts, I'm like, I think people are craving more physical experiences or people to connect with. Right. Like, I think, I think it'll be an interesting balance of like, yeah, an AI song could come on and you might not know it's AI and you might not really care that it's AI because it's like, oh, the song's good. But I wonder like even if that has like a, a huge boom that it wouldn't end up going to the other side of. Like, yeah, but I kind of miss connecting with an artist or with a band or like what they actually had to say, you know, or like if it's AI, there's nothing to really, not much to really connect with, you know. All that said, yeah, I don't know, we'll see what happens.
- [33:38]
A
Well look, I saw what about two months ago there was a bunch of screenshots floating around. Maybe it was the new terms of service that Spotify had that sounded like an adjustment had been made to say that your music can be used in data training sets that can be reproduced in perpetuity with and without like credit, etc. All of the legalese. And then I came across this. Spotify announced a collaboration with major labels, Universal Music Group, Sony Music, Warner Music Group to build an AI driven features while protecting artists rights and Ensuring fair compensation. Proactive move in the face of rising concerns about generative AI tools using artists, voices and sounds without proper licensing. Streaming giant Spotify states it will involve direct licensing and artist permission frameworks. The partnership signals industry acknowledgment of AI as both an opportunity and a threat. So I don't know where it goes. I certainly know that I'm getting delivered more AI bands in my radio. You press one single I think I played, this is exactly what happened. I played the new Bad Omen song the day it came out. It was on the day we were filming with McConaughey and we'd finished up, and I put it on through the system at Stray Vista, where we film that shit. And it came on, and then the next track came on, and I was like, this is a really interesting sound. Funny little track. Like, I'll go over and have a little look. I was like, oh, it's what AI band? Like, the first Omens next track was them. That is fucking premier position.
- [35:08]
C
Yeah, yeah.
- [35:09]
A
Algorithmically, yeah. And it's picking up speed. I would say it's better, but I mean, the. Obviously the other. And you made great point that if I use AI to enhance my songwriting and then cut the track myself with my bandmates, who knows? Yeah, right. Like, how does anybody know where the initial inspiration for this track came from? Like, hey, write me 20 number one hits in the style of Sleep Token and Bad Omens and I prevail. And then you go, oh, well, maybe there's our next album.
- [35:45]
B
Yeah, 100%.
- [35:47]
A
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- [36:49]
B
Really interesting that way because there is like, I, I would imagine that music would start to get a bit watered down. Could be wrong, but that would be my theory on it. And to your point of what you were reading, I think there's a lot of opportunity for like, discoverability of, like. I, I think I saw something that chat GPT and Spotify are coming together. So I could just be like, hey, find me an artist who is really heavy and like, good for working out, right? And then they can feed me real artists. Like, that's actually a really cool opportunity where AI can actually support it. But yeah, it can be snuck into songwriting. I, you know, I feel like that's what the whole writer strikes were about a couple years back in Hollywood is like not using AI for script writing. Because I would imagine, I guess, I don't really know if they are using it or not, but that everything would just kind of start to get watered down. But also, AI is getting better and better. So will it really get watered down?
- [37:45]
A
Yeah. Will it enhance everything? I mean, I mean, here's another way to look at it. Everybody gets inspired by something. You know, the way that you construct your particular melodies, well, it's because you grew up listening to Biffy Clyro or Billy Talent or whoever the fuck. Like, weird My Chemical Romance is first out EP or whatever the fuck it is. You go, okay, so do they own the inspiration that came through you? Obviously not. I don't think anybody would say that. But originality is just undetected. Plagiarism is a kind of way. Like, you play the drums well, you hold the sticks in a particular way. You didn't invent the way that you hold the sticks. You didn't invent the way that the drums are put together. So do you always need to pass it back up? And I think there's an interesting ethical challenge here of how much assistance is too much. How much does it sort of feel like it's being perverted by AI and how much is it just. Well, it's just another tool, you know, it's fucking Pro Pro Tools or Decapitator or whatever the fuck.
- [38:49]
C
Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's. That's an interesting slippery slope. You get down. Because, you know, you like to think that inspiration you hear, you know, like these bands you mentioned. Yeah, I loved all those bands and I took influence from them. You know, the style of music we want to play from lyrics to melody and all that. It's, it's. But it's something, it's something that was, you know, back then there was no AI, so it was something that they were inspired by and then that band was inspired by and it just waterfalls down, cascades down into our creative process and, and then it's. It's up to us to put it through our filter and use our own words and, and, and generate the same emotion or feel that we're going for that we were inspired by. But it all ultimately is through the human experience. And then you have the opposite where it's. You just go to a computer and be like, I'm sad. Write a sad song like my couple romance. And it's like, here's the options. And it's like, well, now I'm just picking and choosing. Like, I'm going down the grocery store and going, I'll take that one. I like that brand. I'll take that one. I'll take that one. It's, it's. Yeah, I. It's like, where does artistry. Where does artistry stop? When you start using tools, but then at the same time, you know, melodyne, you know, pitch correcting on the track or, or, you know, when you're demoing songs and you, you program the drums. You know, bands done that for the last, you know, 20 years and, and you program the drums and. Oh, man, actually, let's track the drums. Well, the program drums, I think sound better. Well, you run with it and. Well, where's that line? You know, it's so. It's, it's. It's very blurred line right now.
- [40:20]
B
Does seem like every time there's been something that's come into the music industry that's like controversial at first, the convenience ends up winning out. Right? Like, I feel like, you know, 50 years ago, the idea of someone writing a song, this is. We'd have to go back a little further, but someone. The idea of writing a song for someone else and that pop artist just taking it and then just singing. What you gave me, I think was initially like, artists aren't even writing their own songs now, but now no one. When Justin Bieber's singing a song, no one's like, did he write that? Like, no one cares. They probably think that he did, but most of the time it's someone, here's a song. You have a good voice. Sing it. Cool. And I can see that. Yeah, to your point of then pitch correcting in the studio, but then pitch correcting live, or then, you know, quantizing to make every. The timing of every instrument perfect, and then even samples of, oh, well, I can just take this sample and I can mess around with it, but now it's mine. And I can, like, build this song.
- [41:18]
A
We'll play to a click track. We'll have a click in our ears to ensure that everybody's at least on time, even if it's not quantized after.
- [41:24]
B
The fact or 100%.
- [41:25]
A
Rick Beato was telling me about how when digital recording first came in and it meant that you didn't just have to do things in one take. Yeah, yeah. You go, well, I mean, that wasn't what they recorded. And I know that there's. If you are recording something and your finger just brushes the wrong string, you're like, hey, dude, like, whatever. Fourth bar in on that second bit there, I just caught it a little bit wrong. Let me just go in and then bing. Okay, there we are. Slot that one bit thing in there. Okay. So, like, you could play. And I think you can do this. You could play an entire track one note at a time. Yeah, Just be like, okay, there's that note. I've got that right. And then I can go in. And then we'll do it again. And we'll do it again. And we'll do it again. You got this Lego brick building block set and you've constructed a track. So, yeah, it's a. Interesting challenge. I mean, have you guys. Do you guys use AI tools? Have they assisted at all with anything that you guys do?
- [42:23]
C
No, never.
- [42:25]
A
Medieval. Yeah.
- [42:26]
B
Yeah, dude, we're grandpas over here. No, the most is we'll be in the back of the bus and we'll think of a really stupid prompt for AI and then we'll just be like, oh, AI write a song about Eric falling down and his pants coming off and poop goes everywhere. And, like, we'll see. We'll see what the AI spits out.
- [42:42]
A
But no, in our actual entertainment tool.
- [42:44]
C
Yeah.
- [42:44]
A
Yes, exactly.
- [42:45]
B
Where do you see it? Like, do you feel any type of threat about AI in the podcasting space? Because I know, like, AI podcasts are.
- [42:53]
A
NotebookLM does a really good job of it. I mean, you can now go and say, I want. I don't know whether you can say it for people, but you can certainly say, I want to learn about the final week of the fall of Berlin in Nazi Germany. Make the podcast 20 minutes long and relatively serious. And Notebook LM will spit out a very listenable, with breath breaks and ums and ahs and laughter and all the rest of it. And it is, it's very listenable. My sort of position on this is that ultimately the, the market is going to choose what's best for it and that's not always great. Ultra processed, hyper palatable foods that are calorie dense. Like people will tend to choose those over something else. It's very difficult to get them to choose the thing which is better for them. But when it comes to this, what's better for them is just what's most accurate. Entertaining, educational. So it is going to be incumbent on whoever it is, whatever industry you're in, to just be better. Like if you can be defeated by AI or a robot, I don't know what the leg is that you have to stand on to be able to compete with that. Now there are certain things that you can do. For instance, you could go live. If you were responding live to messages and comments and stuff from people, that would be the equivalent, my equivalent of doing a show on stage. But even then AI is just going to get quick enough where it's going to be able to render in real time responses and video and then stream those back to people. So all you're doing is kicking the can down the road with regards to that. And I think you guys do have a good moat. I think all bands have a great moat around the, the main money maker which is touring and sort of the associated shit that comes along with that. Because until the robots get as good as you guys on stage, that's not gonna happen.
- [44:50]
B
I mean the Chuck E. Cheese band was pretty sick. That was dope. Those robots were sick.
- [44:54]
A
That is true. Maybe, maybe your fucking demise is closer than you think. Yeah, but yeah, I think there's, I think there's a motor on that and it'll be, it'll be a fascinating few years. My, my, like unpopular, really unpopular with musicians. Theory is that musicians believe that they have a, they should have a special kind of protection around them because it's so hard to be able to do the basics of what you guys do. Anybody can sit down with a microphone in front of them and do a podcast. I mean anybody can sit down and try and sing and like make a song, but the barrier to entry is significantly higher. Like you need to learn so much and practice for a very long time. And I think That a shortcut to a place which is not very far away doesn't feel like that much of a cheat. A shortcut to a place that's taken a decade or 15 years to get to feels much more unfair. And I think that this is one of the reasons that musicians have a particular bee in their bonnet around. Why? Why AI needs some sort of restriction on it. It feels particularly unfair that the Muggles, who haven't spent all of their time learning to sing or play drums or guitar or whatever, are just able to type some words in and then do something which is comparable. Whereas, as is being demonstrated right now, any idiot can do a podcast, right? Like, you got any three idiots. Any three idiots can do a podcast. So it's about how can you sort of stay ahead and you're not. I mean, if you think you're going to slow the behemoth Leviathan, that is AI, it's not going to happen. So it's a case of how are you going to be able to adapt to it.
- [46:35]
B
Yeah, totally. And I try not to just, like, sit around thinking, well, it's unfair and I hope it doesn't do something bad, you know, like, that's not. I don't think that's really going to take me to the place that I want to go in life. But yeah, to your point, it's like, okay, well, what's in my control? Because I can't control AI. I can control how well I show up or what I choose to spend my time focusing on, that I think, like, is the biggest needle mover in my project or my skill set or whatever that is. But yeah, to. To analyze all of those things, like, is. Is difficult, right? Because at a certain point, what got me in the band is not what's going to get the band bigger, right? If I spent all my time, 10 hours a day, just practicing drums, like, if I. If I get 10 times better at drums right now, the band will grow 0%. You know what I mean? It's like, I got to a certain point where it's like, cool. I can do the job and I can do it well, and I can be creative and try to stand out in my own ways. But now what's the next thing that I can focus on that will actually take me to where I want to go? It got me the audition, which is very cool. But yeah, it's. It's always. That's always like a thing I'm trying to think about in my head is like, yeah, what now? What.
- [47:57]
A
What are some of the other secrets that the music industry should be talking about. But isn't I think.
- [48:07]
B
That kind of like what I was saying of how competitive things are? It's not for the most part enough to just be a good band anymore. I think you need to be very multifaceted in having your departments in the business. Right. So like for example, if we use I Prevail, for example, we all do our music thing, we all have our own weird skills. This guy can yell really loud and that's like a cool skill. Right. But for me, okay, like my department is cool, I can play drums. But I'm also have a ton of experience growing in organic content media machine or team or whatever that is and marketing and back end business and growing the merch sales or whatever that is. Right. And then we have our guitar player, Steve, who's very in like the accounting business management world. Yeah, he's a really good lead guitar player, but he's also like a nerd on Excel. Right. And it's like you, you kind of have to have these like other facets that contribute to the overall project. And outside of that, I would just say I used to think that being in a band was like showing up and playing drums and like performing and someone just like hands you a check and it's like, oh, cool, like thanks, I played the show, I got paid, see you later. But it's like, oh, actually there are these nine different arms of how you can make money. But before it comes to you, it's going to go 10% is going to go over here for the person who booked the tour. 20% is going to go to just the general manager who just handles business stuff. Then all of your music is gonna get split into three different arms of publishing. And then people who try to put it on like freaking video games and stuff and whatever your Spotify cut is. And then how much goes to the label as opposed to the people who wrote the songs. And it's like this ginormous spider web of money going to a million different people. And then you're here at the bottom and you're just like, ah, I try to catch as much as I possibly can. Yep, that is a. It's just so complex, right? Like for. I'm. I'm sure it's complex for you too. And I oversimplify it, but I'm like, you do a brand deal and they're like, cool, here you go, here's your monthly or yearly, whatever.
- [50:34]
A
Significantly more simple. But that is because I've done the equivalent of Remaining independent as an artist. I'm not signed. I've never ever been signed to any network. I'm not owned by a media agency. I'm not even signed. I don't even have an agent. Wow. Like, everything is just me. Everything is bootstrapped. Everything is bootstrapped.
- [50:54]
B
That's crazy.
- [50:55]
A
The tour that we put together, Bootstrapped team that we put together bootstrapped everything. Like we booked our own tour manager. Like, this is not yet. So that means that there's a lot more effort that has to go in on the front end, but there's so much more control on the back end.
- [51:09]
B
Yes.
- [51:10]
A
You're like, oh, the something isn't working out with whatever partner this is, whatever member of staff this is, whatever contractor we have. There's no obligation. Yeah. Beyond loyalty, which counts for a lot. But you know, there's no, there's less fuckery. And it is, it is wild to see people just want to go and hear good music from their band that are happy and healthy and playing a show and hopefully well enough remunerated to keep doing it. And there's just a lot of holes in the Swiss cheese slice that you don't get to see. And I, I hope that it doesn't seem at the moment, at least the genres that I'm interested in, you guys and your cohort doesn't seem like that many people feel like they're eating shit. Because I think live is going so well for so many people. But yeah, if I was a big hip hop fan or something, maybe I'd feel differently. Maybe I'd be worried about the sort of upcoming hip hop artists and whether or not they can make money like they used to back in the day or something.
- [52:11]
B
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
- [52:12]
A
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- [53:19]
B
And you know, then the, the tough part about being in a band too. And I don't want to, like, complain about money. My, my. I'm not trying to complain about money. I'm just trying to say, like, I think it's important to understand how the back end of the business works. And like, yes, now you can be independent if you want to. Like, you can. Like, there are plenty of Spotify artists who have. They made a good product. Their song, their songs are good. And they develop the skill of organic content or paid ads or I mean, probably not paid ads as much, but like, yeah, marketing themselves. And if you have a good product and you can market yourselves and you can push people to the right, you know, whatever you want that to be, buy, buy tickets or go stream the song, like, you can simplify the whole process and just get really good at team building, which is what I assume is the skill that you've had to.
- [54:09]
A
Build to do it all independent, run, decided.
- [54:12]
B
But yeah, yeah, but it is like, it's. It's this weird, like, for me, I look at how my life has gone and it. I grew up, everyone, hey, what do you want to be when you grow up? I want to be a drummer. And everyone's like, what you said as a kid. Yeah.
- [54:26]
A
Oh, yeah, okay. What was the response when you said, I want to be a drummer.
- [54:30]
B
You're stupid. Like, I grew up in the suburbs of Michigan. We're still from there. But yeah, there's no, there's no professional musicians that I knew of coming out of Michigan. There are, but you've got Kid Rock, you've got Eminem. Like, there's. There's some Cracker. Yeah, Uncle Cracker. There's some big players, but yeah, everyone's like, you're stupid. Go to, go to school. Do you know, Go to university for you. I wouldn't say college, but, you know, go to college and get a degree in business. And I'm like, I don't care about business. I want to play drums. The ironic thing is that to be able to play drums professionally, I had to learn A lot about business. But then, you know, by my own accord, really fell in love with a lot of it because it's like. I think any musician starts to love it because it's very challenging. It's very challenging to develop a skill in songwriting or singing or drumming or whatever that is. And then at a certain point it's not. You've. You've never arrived. There's. You can always get better. But I think business has that same thing too, right? Where it's like, oh, now there's. Now it's not just drumming that I have to get better at. If I. Business is an umbrella term. You know, there's accounting, there's marketing, there's blah, blah, blah, blah.
- [55:45]
A
So there's endless things to direct input on. The lyrics that you write, the melodies that come out. You don't have the same with how well the accounts are put together. And if you negotiate the margin on the merch, 10% or like. I always used to feel bad when I ran nightclubs in my 20s because I had this sense that my success, I could always excuse my successes away. I was like Velcro for criticism, self criticism, and Teflon for self praise. Because your contribution to the success of a business, anything really within the business operations, even if you come up with the best marketing tagline of all time, you're not the one that delivered it. And you're not the one that chose how the audience responded to it. And you're not the one that said that the sales whatever created the page that had the conversion rate optimization that did the. And it meant that I always was more easily able to ignore where I'd done well with things like that. And I think one of the great things about what you guys do and what I think everybody needs in their life is something where a direct, almost one to one input to output ratio of effort to reward is available. If you write a fucking slamming song individually or as a group like you, that thing is yours and you made it directly. There was no molestation in between you and this thing happening. And I think a lot of the time people feel out of control and out of connection with what's going on in their lives because there are so many layers of. Between them and the shit that is supposed to be the goal on the.
- [57:39]
B
Other side of it, 100%. And that's why I think as much as the business stuff has been enjoyable to really dive into and grow. Like, that's why I'm still so happy that I'm a musician in a band. Because you do have these moments. Like with this last album we made, we blocked off eight months where basically Mondays from 10 to 6 we show up in the studio every day and it, we just walk in, we walk in not knowing what we want to create and we walk out with something. And that I can't, I just don't have that in any other area of my life where it feels like pure creativity. And those short moments are like just so awesome. Like driving home in your car listening to this 30 second demo that you just wrapped up five minutes ago. And then the next, honestly, the next day on the way to the studio, you listen to it, you're like, actually it sucks, but the drive home felt so magical. But now we have to improve it. And you constantly, yeah, Eric comes in, it's like, yeah, that sucks, but let's do this. And then you're like, oh, that's awesome now. And every, it's just like, it feels like pure creativity.
- [58:56]
C
And it's, yeah, crazy to think that you come in with, you know, five dudes coming in a room and have. Haven't even talked about what we're going to work on today. And we sit down and you find some central meeting point and you just pull things out of thin air. And then you leave eight hours later going, we have a 30 second audio file. There's something that came out of nothing. You know, it's. And that, that, that bit of creativity and feeling that reward is, is unlike anything else we have going on in our life. I feel like, you know, you come in with nothing and you leave with something that was created by a group of, group of friends that you're like, there was nothing before this and now we have this, this piece of art. And if. And you feel like you got something off your chest or you feel excited with the direction this thing is going and then it starts shaping the record and then you're like, okay, well we did this. What should be the counterpart of this song, you know what, what? We did something a this. Let's just. The whole creative process is, is so rewarding in that, in that sense.
- [59:57]
A
What have you learned about navigating a career in an industry that's ripe with burnout and crisis and recovery and stuff like that.
- [60:07]
C
Oh man. For me personally, being on the road, specifically when we do like, you know, three and a half weeks in Europe and then we have two days at home and then we do a six week tour in the States and then we're home for a month and we go back to Australia for Three weeks and then your, your time zones are all up and, and being lost on, on tour just, you know, that burnout feel, you know, for me personally is like trying to find those days off when we have them to feel like a human again. Like, I'm, I'm big into some trading card games, collecting records and you know, finding bars or coffee shops that I've been to when we had a day off in that city prior. So to, to step away off the bus and go explore a city on my own or go meet up with some friends or other people on tour and play cards or, you know, find a bar, record shop. Doing something that makes you feel like a person again has definitely helped that, that, you know, four weeks into a, you know, seven week tour or whatever it is, it's like feeling like a human again is very important. So having those hobbies and having those things to, to distract yourself from the, the, the mental fatigue has been huge for me.
- [61:20]
B
Yeah, I mean, I think like, being on the road is a gift in so many ways and you know, like a dream come true. And also, right, like life happens when, when you are on the road and you miss it. Like people die. Right. Our are, we've all lost family members while being on the road and finding out, I mean, friends and family members. I mean, you'll find out a couple hours before you have to go play and you're like, okay, I just found out that a huge piece of my life was, is now gone. And now I have to go like in front of thousands of people. And, you know, not that we played smiley music, so it's not like I have to like put on a smile, but man, you have to, you have to get through some. And that might be in the midst of tension in the band or overall fatigue from tour where you're like, already you're physically drained, you're mentally drained, you're in your 30s, living with eight other grown men, men in a bus the size of this room for months at a time. You haven't seen your family for months at a time. Tragedy happens. Like it is a lot. And I, and also like on the road, there have been so many of like, I think collectively our lowest moments. But it's also coupled with these moments that are so unique that I personally could never get. And once it's done, it's done. Like, for example, like the, the creativity of creating a song, I'm just like, I won't, I don't think I'm gonna find that somewhere else or performing in front of people and being like part of a collective experience. Like, sorry, Eric, I. There have been many moments in my time with the band where I'm like, is this really what I want to do? Like, I am exhausted from the chaos. I miss being home. I love being home. Like, is this really what I want to do? But I think there's these things where it's like, but once it's done, it's, it's done. And also, yes, like there are times where there's like tension in the band, but also you form. You trauma bond together as, as a group, you know, where when people really need it, like you are there for each other and like there's never another time in my life where I'm gonna have, be able to have sleepovers with my 30 year old bros. You know what I mean? But on tour like every night it's like after the show, I'll see in the back lounge.
- [64:09]
C
Silly bus time.
- [64:10]
B
Yeah, silly bus time is what we call it. It's just kind of coming down from the adrenaline, cracking a ton of jokes and then going right to sleep. It's a sleepover, you know. But yeah, it's emotional whiplash all the time.
- [64:26]
C
Yeah. And, and what you're saying about going up and having some kind of loss or turmoil back home and, and trying to navigate that and then an hour later you're going on stage. It's, it's important, especially being the performer or singing the words, putting on the show to remember that, you know, this may be the one concert that that kid is going to all year long. Or this, these people, these fans, these, this group is, is trying to escape whatever's going on in their life. Whether it's all the political stuff they're fed up with seeing online, whether it's their own family issues, whether it's, you know, loss, whatever it may be, this is their moment where they're coming for three, four hours to forget all of that and to have a good time, drink some beers with their friends, shout the lyrics back to, to us and, and, and forget everything. So it's also keeping that in mind when we go on stage. Like this is just as much our moment, having fun up here as your moment, you know, your once this month or once this year getting to, to release or, or exercising demons in the pit or to just forget about all the, the bullshit that they have going on at home and then, you know, having to remember that when you're going through something yourself to go up there and go, all right, this is for them, you Know, put. Put the show. We call it putting. Getting into our show. He's like, you're.
- [65:45]
B
You got the severance, your innie and your Audi. It's like our Normie and our showy.
- [65:49]
C
Yeah. So it's time to zip into our show and get out there and give. Give everyone the show that they want to. They. They deserve.
- [65:57]
A
You know, that's what's called being a professional. Right. Like, you know, if you're a. A firefighter and you've had a big argument and a sleepless night with the wife last night or arguing or something, it's like, I'm not equating rock stars and firefighters in terms of importance.
- [66:15]
B
Thank you.
- [66:16]
C
Thank you.
- [66:16]
B
Because you're saying that we're more important, right? Yeah.
- [66:18]
A
Okay, good, good.
- [66:19]
B
I just wanted to make sure.
- [66:20]
A
Significantly.
- [66:22]
B
But they.
- [66:24]
A
They have to turn up and do a job. And I think it's good to think about it in terms of service. There's certainly at least sort of from my side looking from the outside in, because any job that's a lot of fun or that has just fun as a part of it starts to see anything that isn't fun as a bug, not a feature, and you go, hey, yeah, I know that sometimes shit's hard, but for some people's jobs, all of it's hard.
- [66:57]
B
Yeah.
- [66:57]
C
Yeah.
- [66:58]
A
And the fact that, well, you know, I'm tired or this has been long, or I'm whining to you about how many flights I've got to do this week and tour for me starts this week. And I'm like, yeah, but I'm going to go and do this thing with my best friends in cities that I love and get to see. And you go, well, I think this is why people have limited sympathy for traveling musicians that whine about how hard it is because they're complaining that some of the things are difficult. Meanwhile, most people's jobs, all of the things are difficult. They don't get the positive reinforcement in the way. It's like, you know, I struggle to sleep because the adrenaline is high. You go, well, some people don't ever feel adrenaline. Like, the reason that you've got that is because of how much positive reinforcement you got earlier in the night. Yeah, Yeah. I guess something I'm interested in. You mentioned it's like it's a sleepover with your bros in your 30s. Everybody's aging, right. Everybody's getting older. At least a bunch of you are married or in relationships, and maybe all of you are. So I'm interested in how you navigate that as everybody grows up, because people have personal lives that aren't going to be as negotiable as they used to be. You don't choose when your kid's born. Your big band, tons of sperm means lots of potential road bumps for people to navigate. So you're gonna have to say, hey, darling, I know that you're really keen on having a baby next year. The wedding was wonderful. Thank you for allowing us to slot it in. In between Australia and the second run on the US Tour. We're not gonna be able to start trying until late July because we've got this new amphitheater run that we've got that's lined up. And, you know, I like, surely this is something that's in the back of your guys's minds as you start to plan your personal future. And then how does this work with blending the band?
- [69:00]
C
Yeah, I mean, I'm going through it right now planning a wedding and next spring and. And just constantly reminding the guys, like, hey, check the calendar. We got a tour offer. When is that tour offer again? Okay, cool, cool, cool. All right, I have a week. I can get married. But yeah, that's. That's. I think it's something that we don't talk about, but we all feel and know it's in the back of our mind. Like our guitar, Steve just had a kid three years ago during. When we were recording our. Our last record and he went off and Melissa had the baby, and then they. We released the record and went on the road shortly after that. So, you know, he missing the. The, you know, early. Early years of. Of his child's. Child's life. And it's difficult trying to plan around life events, major life events like that. But, you know, we. We try our best between the. The five of us to plan things, the intimate parts of our lives and in our. Our little group. And. And, you know, if someone's got to fly home for a weekend, we try to slot some. Some time, you know, days off where it's okay. You can fly home this weekend. All right, cool. We'll meet up with you in, you know, three stops from now. And. But yeah, it's something that I think. I don't know if we have it mastered, but it's. It's something that we, I don't say struggle with, but it's something that is a difficult thing to. To have our. Our personal lives and those huge moments and, you know, having a kid or getting married or, you know, friends, weddings, standing in weddings, whatever it may Be is. It's. It's a challenge. It definitely is a challenge.
- [70:32]
B
Yeah. I think it's like you're. You're trading sacrifices, right. So in the early days, the sacrifice is, I'm gonna go out and tour for nine months of the year and make $12. Right. That's the sacrifice. And you make it. And then that. That stops to be. That stops being the sacrifice. It's like, oh, we're. We're touring less and making more than $12. So. Okay, cool. But then, yeah, as you get older, there's more sacrifice in it in a different way. Your parents are getting older, thinking about having kids. How. How do you navigate that? How do you navigate a marriage where it's long distance? That's pretty uncommon. But also, in some ways, like, I think with any sacrifice, it's difficult. But also there are gifts inside all of it. Right. Because what a lot of people experience, kind of like to. What you were saying earlier, is of like, oh, their jobs suck all the time. Like you are. You might always be with your spouse and never kind of have that opportunity to truly miss your spouse. Like, some people just never have the opportunity to actually miss their spouse, which is interesting. And there is, like, a gift in that of I'm going to be gone and I'm going to have this opportunity to desperately miss you and to have reconnection time, which, yes, can sometimes be an adjustment.
- [72:01]
A
Right.
- [72:02]
B
For sure. I heard you talk to the under oath guys about this. Very relatable of. Yeah. You might come home and your spouse is like, I was kind of used to living here by myself. Right. And now.
- [72:12]
A
Yeah. Your. Your partner is saying to you, I know that you've come back and you immediately want me to drop into this life that you've imagined.
- [72:20]
B
Yeah.
- [72:21]
A
But I've had to create a life where I can cope with the distance of you being away.
- [72:24]
B
Yeah.
- [72:25]
A
Like, so, yeah, I've walled myself off.
- [72:27]
C
Yeah.
- [72:27]
A
A little bit. Yeah. Maybe I'm not as soft or accommodating as you might like me to be because you've been playing shows for six weeks in front of a few thousand people and I. Fucking about on the bus with your friends.
- [72:40]
C
Right.
- [72:40]
B
Yeah, totally. And you. You're both coping in your own ways. Right. And I'm coping by laughing my ass off with my friends. Right. And in, yeah, this weird way where and everything is kind of handed to you on the road, you know, but then coming home, it's like those coping mechanisms don't work in a marriage where it's like, Yes, I want time and I want this and I want this. It's like well this is not really a marriage. Like that's not a give and take, that's just a take. Yeah. But yeah, I do think like what that opens up then is more conversations to grow closer and be like hey, like this isn't actually working when I'm gone or it's actually not working when I come back. Like how can we navigate this together and use it as an opportunity to grow closer or to create systems in our family or any of my relationships to make this work better without completely overstretching both of ourselves.
- [73:42]
A
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- [74:56]
B
We've, as we've gotten older, we've tried to bring it down to around four months a year or five. Yeah. Where my first year touring with these guys, I think we were gone for nine.
- [75:08]
A
So you're still talking now about, you know, three days out of every week. So you're only home for maybe four out of seven. Plus there'll be Travel, plus there'll be songwriting, plus there'll be rehearsals, plus there'll be all of the other stuff. So you're talking about, you know, if you do a month with five, with everything else on top, it's probably closer to six.
- [75:26]
B
Sure.
- [75:27]
A
So you're talking about three and a half days out of every single week that you're apart from friends, family, partner, kid, etc. It's tough. Yeah, it's a. It's a fucking. You know. That was the fascinating thing, speaking to Aaron and Tim. Aaron said, did he get married and went on tour, or had a kid and went on tour, like, three days later or something? And just, you know, we got to turn it around because this is what you've got to do. And it's an interesting question. Most people, when they're building a project, what they're looking to do is, over time, do fewer things that they don't want to do. Almost everybody's goal in life is to say, I just don't want to do things I don't want to do anymore. Right. That's, like, where people want to arrive at. But there's an interesting challenge that I've been feeling recently, which is, what do you do when you start to get close to being able to actually making that reality? Now? What does that look like? And it's difficult because you're used to working at this particular rate, and you get reward and reinforcement at that same particular rate. But what was the point of touring for nine months every year for five, if you don't then drop it down to doing it at the pace that you want to? And then how do you know what the pace that you want to is? Because you're always going to feel a high after you've come upstage. But then what's accumulating in the background? How many ruptures without repair have occurred in the relationship? How many missed weddings and degraded friendships and funerals that you haven't been able to deal with and thoughts that you haven't given yourself time to just sit with because you're in the chaos of the show and someone's bringing you cool new food and we're gonna go skiing today. We're in Salt Lake. It's gonna be great. Like, all of these things are these weird hidden costs that you pay kind of out the back here. And I see, especially with the age, and this is meant complimentarily, the metal scene is not young. Yeah, it's not young. Like, you guys are a veteran band who are, like, middle aged. I Guess for like metal stars. Ollie from Bring me must be 38. I think he's about my age 36 to like 40 or something like that. I think he might be my age 37. You're talking like, I don't know what Ronnie Radke is. Ronnie's gonna be like, you know, 40s. I think Ronnie's in his 40.
- [78:04]
B
But.
- [78:06]
A
Can you really still crank? You're like 46. We're still cranking it. Four months on tour. You know, the kids are off to fucking like middle school. You go, oh, if you're not careful. You missed your life. You missed your life. You didn't just like do this thing when you were young and had fun. Fucking under oath, right? Like the guy, I mean, what was it that Tim said? He's like, I've got a 14 year old daughter, but I only know her as Seven. Missed half a life.
- [78:33]
B
Yeah, it's. It's the illusion that. It's the ever growing illusion that one.
- [78:41]
A
Day you'll be done.
- [78:42]
B
Yeah, I'm doing as much as I can right now so that I can retire at 40 and have all the time.
- [78:51]
A
Dude, you never retire.
- [78:52]
B
No, I know, but I'm saying that's what the illusion is. It's that I'm going to work really hard right now. I'm going to get it while I can. Because you never know when it's going to be done. You never know when it's going to end. It's done.
- [79:03]
A
The haymaking season thing, I get it.
- [79:05]
B
But it's an illusion in a way, right? Like I.
- [79:07]
A
It's a horizon. Every step you take toward it, it gets one step further.
- [79:10]
B
And it's weird because I'm aware of it and I play into it and I. I feel like I can't escape it. Even though I've been told and I see and I'm like, I see that it's an illusion.
- [79:20]
A
In. In your defense, that's the same with junk food. It's the same with overusing your phone on social media. It's the same with staying up late every single night you've ever stayed up late. I know I need to go to bed early, but you don't. And you know the lesson and you can feel it unfolding in front of you. And then the next day you forget it and redo it again.
- [79:36]
B
You know what I mean?
- [79:37]
A
Like, it's the same thing. Yeah.
- [79:39]
C
We're just simple creatures, man.
- [79:40]
A
Yeah.
- [79:42]
C
But yeah. Yeah, that, that is a man. That is something that. That is a little scary to Think about sometimes where it's like, we've been doing this for 11 years and I, I look back, I'm like, man, I remember that tour. That was seven years ago. That was. I was 23. I'm 34. Like, where did my life go? But then you're able to look around, you know, our house, like, this house I paid for by screaming at people. And I have these awesome little trinkets on the wall. You know, whether they're a gold, Gold plaque or a photo of us playing at Red Rocks or, Or whatever. And it's, it's. It's tough to. Tough to think that, like, you're saying it's the horizon just keeps going, keeps going. When, When. When are we going to be content? I. I don't. I don't know. I guess the only thing I can hope for is to build this up as. As big as possible so we can bring our loved ones out on the road more often. We can had these shared experiences more often out on the road.
- [80:40]
A
Or you're then asking a lot of your loved ones, right?
- [80:42]
C
Exactly.
- [80:42]
A
You're saying, hey, honey, you know, your life.
- [80:44]
C
Exactly.
- [80:45]
A
How do you feel about not having a. Yeah. How do you feel about your life being. How. How about my life is your life?
- [80:55]
B
Yeah. It's a difficult balance. And also, like, with, with what you're saying, if, like, you missed your life. I'm. I'm thinking about that and I'm like, maybe I, I see that point and I think there's something to consider there for sure of missing the people who you love. But I also think if I were to flip it, I think if I were sitting in my house, in my office or whatever, behind my computer all day, which I just do on the road. But I, I think I might have.
- [81:23]
A
The same thought of you missed your life.
- [81:25]
B
I'm missing my life. I'm wasting it in the same place every single day, doing the same thing every single day. Like, I think it's, yeah, this. You just want what you don't have.
- [81:36]
A
Choose your regrets. Dude, it's so, so true. You've nailed it. Everybody assumes the thing that's missing in their life is the thing that they want. Yeah. And we are like that in our ability to be able to wish the grass is greener despite the fact that we were on the other grass only a week ago. Yeah, I know that. It's the fact coming back from tourism, you've just finished tour, you're like, thank fuck for that. Oh, my God, I'm so tired and I just wanna lie in bed and I just wanna like cuddle my wife or do whatever. And then seven days later you're like, I'm bored. Yeah, this sucks. I'm bored. I wanna be like, I'm not doing enough. I should be in more cases. Like, you just did a seven week tour. And I think this is the same. Everybody feels it is sort of part of the human system to always feel like you're not doing enough and that not doing enough can be not doing enough peace and also not doing enough work. And yeah, mark of a good nervous system, I think is one that can adapt to both without feeling like it's missing the other.
- [82:41]
B
Yeah.
- [82:42]
A
And you're like, oh, like, I'm just, I'm okay with this. Yeah, I feel like I'm okay with this.
- [82:47]
B
I know I've heard Hermosi say like something I'll paraphrase it of like, the grass is always greener on the other side, but because there's a bunch of on my side. But there's also a bunch of on the other side. It's just different. Like, which do you want? Because there's on both sides. Right. And I think we view other people's life through rose colored glasses. Right. I'm sure Chris, most of your audience would be like, if I could have Chris's life where I'm talking with interesting people all the time, doing big. I got this sick drink company called New Tonic Tasty.
- [83:23]
A
Yes.
- [83:24]
B
So good.
- [83:25]
C
I don't know which one.
- [83:25]
B
My camera. Is this my camera? So, so good. Yeah, wait, sorry. I'll figure it out. Anyway, I'm sure a million people would be like, I want Chris's life. Yeah, sure. He's got health problems. Yeah, sure. Like it maybe been a couple, a rough couple years, but they kind of just overlook that part, you know what I mean? And they would, they still take that trade. Maybe. But I think again, yeah, we, we look at, we look at other people's lives and are like, I would take, I would take all of it. Because the good thing seems so good that all the with it is worth it. And maybe sometimes that that's why that's true.
- [84:03]
A
But people find industries that work for them, right? Like, if you're not that much of a touchy feely, affectionate person. Well, you know, I would be at home, but I wouldn't. Like the wife's got her thing going on. We might not be hanging all that much in any case, so I might as well be away, right? And that's where you see I wrote this essay a little while ago about people who have the talent but not the constitution to become very successful. Lewis Capaldi was my sort of canonical example of this until he came back and smashed it at Glastonbury this year, which I'm really, really happy for him.
- [84:40]
B
Nice.
- [84:42]
A
Luz Capaldi, great example of phenomenal voice, phenomenal songwriter, but someone who suffered so badly with performance anxiety that he went out on the main stage at Glastonbury not long ago and couldn't get his words out. And he's got this, he's developed this sort of Tourette's, like nervous tick from how much pressure he's applied to himself. You go, how unfortunate to be someone who's so perfectly constructed. It's like having a really fast engine put into a Honda Civic. It's like a V12 engine. So you have all the power to be able to drive real fast and none of the control to be able to direct it.
- [85:15]
B
Yeah.
- [85:16]
A
And that is a, a unique kind of pain where you go like the thing that I want to be a world class recording artist, touring musician or, or whatever, soldier or sports star or whatever. I have all of the capability. I just don't have the constitution to be able to handle maybe the pressure that comes along with it or the work rate or the travel. You could have really sensitive circadian disruption like in your sleeping pattern. And that would mean you could not be a touring artist or like it would just take such a toll on your health that your expiry date would be, would be pretty snap close.
- [85:54]
B
Yeah.
- [85:54]
A
And yeah, you're right, there will be bits of shit on either side of the fence. And what is the price that you want to pay in order to have the life that you admire? Is a fucking really good question about that. Yeah, yeah. I've heard you say about life on the road and missing funerals, missing friends and birthdays. There's this Keith Urban thing, the Road on CBS at the moment, first episode came out this week. So during the premiere episode of the Road on cbs, Urban opened up about the difficulties of life on the road as a cheering musician. It's a calling and you're born to do it or you're not gonna make it. He said when you wake up on a Tour bus at 3:30 in the morning and you're sick as a dog, you're in the middle of nowhere and you've got to play your fifth show later that night. You haven't slept and you miss your friends and you're missing your family and you're completely lonely and miserable and sick. And you say to yourself, why am I doing this? Urban, who recently split from estranged wife Nicole Kidman, continued, the only answer could be, because this is what I'm born to do. We're going to find out who's made of that stuff, and we're going to find out who's made of that stuff is to do with being on the road. Really interesting that someone who recently split from his estranged wife is sort of being used as the. And look, if you, too, are sufficiently successful, this could be your life. Also, like, really does show how narrow the aperture is that we perceive success through. Right. Like, it really is.
- [87:18]
B
I.
- [87:18]
A
It doesn't sound to me like. Well, I mean, it's a. A public interview, so how would you know? It's not quite the place for someone to drop into their emotions. It doesn't particularly sound to me like Keith Urban would say, I would rather give up my touring or have not toured at all and still have my marriage to Nicole Kidman. But who knows? Maybe in retrospect, he'll think something differently. And, yeah, the prices that you pay, the things that you miss in order to do the thing that you love. It's different with you guys versus, like, some person that works offshore on an oil rig or a soldier. Right. Because it's not too dissimilar. They do tours, different sorts of venues. But I think people feel differently about that because that feels like more of a obligation.
- [88:07]
B
Yeah.
- [88:08]
A
There's a nobility. Yeah. Attached to that. There's some. There's a. You guys get less sympathy because you're, like, about. Yeah.
- [88:16]
C
Champagne problems, man.
- [88:17]
A
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
- [88:20]
C
I. I do have. I do have some sense of guilt sometimes where I'm like, how dare I feel so bad right now? Like, the. I feel like one of the first times I went through something hard on the road was one of my best friends and living. Living at my place with me, took his own life right before we walked on stage in Pittsburgh. And that was, like, the first time that I. I, like, allowed myself to, like, feel. Feel bad about missing things. Like when it was a wedding or something. I was like, it's like, oh, man.
- [89:03]
B
I'm just.
- [89:03]
C
Is this really. I'm. I'm getting to live my life and my dreams and. And do these things. And, like, I don't. You know, shame on me for. For feeling any type of way. But when. When that happened, that was like, the first time that I was like, no, it's okay. It's okay to feel bad. Like, it's, you know, man, sorry. Thinking. Thinking about that time. That was really, really tough, man. But then on the outside, like I said earlier, you just have to suit up and go out there and play and, and remind yourself how, how lucky and blessed you are to be doing this. And. Yeah, over. Over the last few years, I've tried to balance that, like, sense of guilt of living my dreams, let's say over, you know, missing the funerals and the friendships and, and planning, oh, okay, well, I go back, I'm just gonna have to rebuild that relationship or they understand. My family understands that I'm. I'm out here doing, Doing big things and then trying to. Trying to live my dreams. But it's.
- [90:03]
B
It's.
- [90:03]
C
It's. It's always a challenge. It's always a challenge going out on the road and being gone for so long and, and looking back at the things you're missing, but then, you know, reminding yourself, like, this is what you signed up for. You know, how lucky are you that a fraction of a percent of people get to do this and enjoy it while you can't, because tomorrow could just be gone. You know, I could take over. You know, we're just done.
- [90:25]
B
Yeah, I think it's. It's tricky to balance the responsibility of.
- [90:36]
C
You have a.
- [90:36]
B
You have a group of thousands of people who paid, you know, however much to, like, get a release from whatever they're going on in their. Their life. And we are kind of like pioneering that ship in a lot of ways. Like, Michael Jordan, you know, has that. I actually don't remember what the quote is, but there's that, like, infamous game where he's puking on the sidelines, but he's still playing because he's like, this might be the only time someone gets to see me. And like, they. This could have been their past two weeks paycheck to be here. So I'm going to play. I'm going to. To no matter what, like, be here. And so I think it's balancing that responsibility while also not becoming. Not valuing their validation in an unhealthy way. So it's like you have a responsibility to them. But I think some people. I can't speak for Keith Urban, but, like, I think some marriages can fall apart because a lot of artists are desperate for validation. I mean, we're. We're putting ourselves on a stage in front of people screaming our. Our name. Not my name because I'm the drummer, but screaming your band's name. And it's like, yeah, those group of People, like, probably want a little bit more validation because of X, Y and Z in our childhood. Right. But I think that's when relationships, marriages can fall apart because you're so desperate for the validation from strangers as opposed to the places that it actually matters from.
- [92:10]
A
Bro, I. I think so much about how sad it is that some people got one shotted with status games in high school and never grew out of them. Like, they just need to be accepted by the cool kids. Even if the cool kids are a bunch of strangers on the Internet and they just, you can see, I think they cycle through life ignoring or almost feeling an ick or a kind of allergy to anybody who gives them free and available love. It's like, oh, if you're giving me something, you're offering it to me without withholding it, without there being a price attached. You just, oh, you seem to just like me for me. What's wrong with you? No, you're supposed to make. You're supposed to reject me or not want me or you're supposed to make me hurt for it or something. And that's a pattern that is really unfortunate because it's going to cause you to ignore the very thing that you want. You're going to disregard the very thing that you're trying to get, which is someone to just see you.
- [93:22]
B
Yeah. Yeah. And that can also be a good thing, though, because some of those people don't actually really see you. You know, if you're like dating someone for a long time, yeah, they probably really see you. But if someone who doesn't know you and is like trying to pour this validation your way and you really receive that, which there's a healthy degree, but there's also the other side where it's like, well, you don't actually know me. You might be a fan of our songs, our music, which is really cool. But like, if I, if I take all this praise, that's where I think ego can get really dangerous. And we've seen so many people go down that path where you just accept all of this praise from people who don't know you. But then on the, on the same side, that's when, like, oftentimes their downfall is because with any, almost any rise, there's going to be a time where, well, okay, you got big enough now the only thing left to do is to turn on you. You know what I mean? I feel like it's kind of a tale as old as time. And then you have your period of time where people turn on you and you weather that storm and then people get bored of turning on you and they go, okay, well now they're down, so like let's lift them back up. Now they have somewhere to go again.
- [94:39]
C
Right.
- [94:40]
A
I think that's so right. And you can almost see it in these little cycles up and down. And I think everybody has. Anybody that gets to a size has to have an ascendancy. Right. That's why you get to the size. Everybody has to have a moment where they Icarus it a little and it is just whether or not they manage to pick back up on that one. And after that, I mean you can obviously completely like kamikaze yourself if you do something wrong. But after that one, typically I see very few people that just keep going up. Yeah, almost everybody has one dip. So it's like, okay, get ready for the dip. Yeah, I guess with you guys. How has the. Or how do you define your guys's identity as a band now that the lineups changed, that the dynamics evolved, that the sounds evolved as well? The reason I think about that is artists, podcasters, comedians get. They capture attention for doing a thing well. Yeah, there is a temptation to just do that thing again. And there's been a lot of change from you guys last album to this one. You're stepping up into full vocalist doing everything mode plus an evol evolution in terms of sound. I'm interested in what like how you think about sort of identity of the band and not being trapped by what you did before, but staying true to your roots, but not being behold. You know what I mean? Like how do you navigate all of this?
- [96:15]
C
Yeah, I think it's a, it's a challenge that we're, we're finding out right now, learning as we go. But yeah, I, I think it's difficult on a personal side because you, you think you haven't changed individually. We haven't changed. The writing is still, we're still writing and not from the outside. A lot's changed on the inside, maybe not so much. So when you hear and see out, you know, whether it's fans or fairweather fans or whatever that are, are like, oh, this. It's a whole different band. It's different. It's not, it's like, well, we, we don't feel that different. We know there's a change, but we don't feel that different. So that, that's been a very difficult thing for me personally is like, you know, I, I've been writing in this band since day, day one and now all of a sudden I, I feel Like a stranger to my. My own band. Just from the perception of. Of a couple nameless people out there, you know, and it's. It's been. It's been a struggle personally, but. Yeah. How. How do you feel about this?
- [97:23]
B
I think our identity is. It is shifting. Like, I think to what you were talking about earlier. You have this. You have a. A lot of times there are like these bands with certain dynamics, right? And like, no doubt, the dynamics are now different. And in a lot of ways with that, with that change, we've kind of leaned into the different a little bit from the standpoint of like, how we are trying to interact with each other as a group and trying to nourish our relationship with each other as much as possible. But in some ways it's. I keep talking about gifts, but like, they're like you said, the thing that got us here. We don't even. In some ways our sound is naturally now different, so we don't even have some of like that option to go back to of like, well, we did this thing and it's like, well, no. No matter what we do now, it's going to be different. And so we have to. Or we get to reanalyze. Like, what do we want to be moving forward? What do we want to be to each other? How do we want to be with each other? What do we want a sound to be? It kind of breaks open your life in a new way. I. I liken it to. Yeah, a relationship where you have a relationship with someone for. For 10 years and after a certain period of time it's like, hey, I actually think you want this and, and I want this. And we're going to move in those separate directions. And it is a time of self discovery. You know, the interesting thing about it is that most people in a relationship, they go their separate ways and there's pain there for sure. But it's kind of up to you to ask yourself, what do you want next in a band situation. It's interesting. It's like. It's almost like you have a big family around you saying, well, I actually liked you better when you were with that person, and I actually want you to do this. And it's like, well, okay, like, I appreciate the feedback, like, understood. But I kind of have to go on this journey. I hope that you can come on this journey with me because my. My family, my fans, you know, the. The metaphor. You're very important to me and you've been with me this time. I would love to continue in A relationship with you guys. Also, please have a little bit of trust in me that, like, I'm gonna reinvent myself in a way where I'm gonna try to grow from this experience and do what is authentic to me and us. And yeah, that's kind of what the processes has been like. And yeah, no, no doubt there's been a ton of challenges in it, but damn, do I think we've. We've grown a ton from it. Absolutely. And really excited for what. That. What the path is for us moving forward. I mean, I'm so stoked on this record. Chris, I. You. I told you to let me know if it's shit and you didn't let me know, so I'm just assuming you made it.
- [100:49]
A
It's great.
- [100:49]
B
I thought I'm just insecure. I need more validation like I please.
- [100:52]
A
Strangers on the Internet tell me that I'm enough Millions of people a year are not enough. What I thought was interesting with what you guys did, and I think I'm not convinced that Sleep Token quite did this. It'll be interesting to see what. Omen's third track comes out tomorrow, I think. Oh, does it really? Yeah. What you guys did that was really interesting was you chose three very different tracks from the album, and I thought that was kind of unique. I would say President did a not bad job with releasing ahead of their ep. I thought that was good in terms of the sequence. I did find a couple of them a little samey and I might have hot swapped one of them. I thought Conclave was actually maybe a stronger track that was hidden deep in the EP and they could have brought that out. Omens, both of their tracks have been a little samey, but fucking like obviously fucking brilliant. She's great. And I thought he was interesting. I've had this idea in my mind for ages about you as a band. Decide that you're gonna put out two or three or four singles and then you drop an album. So presumably you have an idea about what your best foot forward in some regard looks like. Or at least your best foot forward as a collective. When you take these three, this is an indication of what the longer record's going to be like. But then you put it out on Spotify and the fucking audience gets to decide and you're like, track eight, really? You motherfuckers. Really? The fucking acoustic track? Are you kidding me? Or whatever, Right? They pick the thing.
- [102:29]
B
Well, that's actually the case here.
- [102:30]
A
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I checked this one. Okay.
- [102:33]
B
I was gonna say it's Way too specific. Yeah, no, it's weird, dude. It's like we. Like I said, we've been writing this. I mean, man, the writing process was just eight months, but then we recorded it, then we mastered it, then we mixed it, then mastered it. And I mean, all in. Yeah. A year and three months or something like that of just pouring our, our souls out to each other. You know, a few guys in a room and it's like, I think this is sick. Is this sick? I think it is. I. I don't know. Is it?
- [103:06]
C
And probably getting lost in the sauce. Yeah.
- [103:09]
B
100. And we're like, we're removing tracks. We're like, this song actually sucks. Like that song we. We wrote. And we're like, it's not going to make the album. Like it's. It's different. Like it's just an acoustic song. Like, when are we going to do that? And Eric was like, he didn't say this, but he felt so he's like, guys, if this song is on the album, I'm going to leave. Like, he wasn't really.
- [103:31]
C
But.
- [103:32]
B
But yeah.
- [103:33]
A
So it's weird.
- [103:33]
B
It's weird. Like the insecurity just starts to like, build of like, well, let's just. Let's move this one out. I don't know. And then two months later you're like, let's bring it back in. Like, I haven't listened to that one. And you're like, oh, it's actually really good. But yeah, then you get this like confidence once you like have written the whole thing, you're like, I see this as a work of art. I'm really excited to release it. Then once you've written it, the insecurity starts creeping up again.
- [103:59]
A
I knew we should have put Fuck. What For a normie like me, what is the sort of number of tracks that you've cut that didn't make a ten album record? A ten song album?
- [104:14]
C
Yeah, I think we had like three or so. Maybe that got to a second chorus.
- [104:20]
B
Am I. I think, I think four or five.
- [104:22]
C
Four or five.
- [104:23]
B
But then don't forget the seven songs we wrote even before scrapping all of those.
- [104:30]
C
Yeah, it's true. Good point.
- [104:31]
B
Forgot probably another 10 songs.
- [104:33]
A
Right. That still seems relatively lean to me. That seems like a pretty good hit rate. Right. To write one in two songs makes the album. Makes mastered fucking out there.
- [104:47]
B
Yeah.
- [104:47]
A
That seems like. I don't know. Is that.
- [104:49]
B
It might be. Yeah. I feel like every band has something a little bit different. The. The interesting thing with us is that like, yes, let's say one and two songs. But the song that, you know it now has also taken six different forms. Where it's like, oh, well, the chorus was actually different, and verse two is actually a completely different part. We rewrote the bridge three times. And so I think as long as we have a nugget that we think.
- [105:15]
A
Is good enough, mainly building it around something.
- [105:18]
B
Yes.
- [105:18]
C
Yes.
- [105:18]
B
Yeah. If we're like, oh, this chorus is sick. Let's keep going back to it. Let's keep going back to it. Let's keep going back to it. And the nice thing is, like, you get to see if it stands the test of time.
- [105:27]
C
Yep.
- [105:28]
A
Like, that's what I mean about when you put it out there and the audience gets to choose, because that's also, in a really hilarious way, kind of going to determine what the live set looks like. Because if song eight, the acoustic song, Eat Shit, and you go, wow. I mean, there's fucking no chance that we're playing that live. But if there's the prospect of, oh, fuck, like, this is. It's a most played track on Spotify ranked at the moment or whatever. We have to do that. Fuck, we have to do this.
- [105:58]
B
No, like, oh, yeah.
- [105:59]
A
Or whatever. Right. But it's cool.
- [106:00]
C
Yeah, it's cool.
- [106:01]
A
Because you've had this idea. Look how clever I am. I know my release in advance. I'm gonna do my little singles. I'm gonna make them come out, and they'll be in the right order. And then you put the thing out, and then all of your fans just go, you, dude, I'm gonna choose what I want.
- [106:15]
C
Yeah.
- [106:15]
A
I think it's so cool.
- [106:17]
C
Yeah. And it's. It's. I don't want to say challenge, but it's like when we start writing the record and then you start fantasizing about the future, like a year, a year and a half from now, you start, okay, well, when we do the headliner, you know, we're gonna open with this song. Imagine the set opening like this, and we roll in this song. We pull this deep cut out from two records ago, and that goes third. And then we've learned quickly, after the last record, we were like, this opening track is going to be the opening track to the show. And then the album's been out for a couple months and maybe less than that, a month. And you go out there and people are excited to see you, and they're excited to see some of the new stuff, but they want to see that. That record that they grew up on. Or whatever it may be. And then you go out and you play that first song and you're looking in the crowd and no one's singing it because they don't know the words. And you're like, oh, God, this is gonna be a rough four minutes. You gotta educate the next one. So. So now it's like, you know, we have these little nuggets ideas like how the set's gonna be, you know, when we go out and tour it, you tour this new record again. But, you know, you gotta let the fans pick the songs and then you see the. Okay, these songs are popping off. Hell yeah, we get to play these. Well, where in the set should we play? And we don't want to blow our load early and play all the cool stuff from the first half. And everyone's sitting like, you know, it's building the sets, like, you know, taking that emotional roller coaster. You know, we have so many different sounds and different emotions through, through our lyrics and, and moods and all that. And you don't want to put all the heavy stuff right up front. You don't want to save all the energetic stuff till the end. You know, it's just building that dynamic.
- [107:45]
A
Roller journey feel like, to go on. So let me give you this, right, for just in case you guys thought that you had it hard. The way that I have to put together a live show, I come up with ideas in the most sterile environment possible just on my own. Maybe it gets clipped and put on the Internet. I have an indication that some people think it's cool or maybe not. Who knows? Then when I go and test it live, there's no sound, right? Because the single best thing that can happen at a. Unless it's standup and there's some bits of stand up. But that's not the meat and potatoes of my live show. If I'm gonna go and do this, like, the best thing that I can have is pin drop silence.
- [108:31]
C
Oh, yeah.
- [108:33]
A
So I'm inverting what every live artist throughout history has ever tried to go for. I want the most silent. I want deathly quiet.
- [108:42]
C
Yeah.
- [108:43]
A
And then like hanging on what the next bit of the story or the word is going to be. I'm like, was that more quiet than the other bit? Like, I have no fucking idea. And then people finish up and they go, I love the bit about the man that fell over on the street or whatever the fuck it is that someone comes up with. And I'm like trying to aggregate. That is for me, you know, a real interesting challenge. I'VE loved the live element. I've loved being able to put together a set not too dissimilar to the way that you guys do. I've got like tracks, I've got insights and ideas and I can piece these together in an interesting manner that hopefully takes people on a journey. And I don't want to have all of the funny stuff up front and I don't have all of the sad boy stuff at the end and you know, so on and so forth. You'll see on Sunday, Toronto. Yeah, but the feedback mechanism, dude.
- [109:31]
B
Yeah.
- [109:31]
A
Is like, I don't know, I feel like a MI6 age, like Sherlock Holmes trying to reverse engineer what it is that the audience is thinking about.
- [109:40]
C
Yeah.
- [109:40]
A
Are you enjoying this? Do you like it more than the last bit? Who knows?
- [109:44]
B
What does the, what does the silence represent to you?
- [109:48]
A
Tension, presence. Yeah, like real, like I, I, there's bits that happen. I haven't got enough of them in this one. But the next show, which is Australia, New Zealand in March and then Bali, there's a couple of bits where people catch their breath where you hear like a, like that and I'm like, oh, that's fucking cool.
- [110:12]
B
That's sick.
- [110:13]
A
Like, especially given that the room is fucking pin drop silent. And then you hear this like collective depressurization of the whole room as everyone just gasps a little bit and I'm like, oh, that's fucking cool.
- [110:24]
C
Yeah.
- [110:24]
A
And then there's like laughy bits and I've got some new, I tested, I did the final work in progress show last night and tested some new stand up bits and they fucking destroyed. They were so much fun. They're like, there's some of them that are way too spicy for me to feel comfortable saying. And like I tested some Canada stuff and I'm like, I can't do that in Canada. And I tested some America stuff and I can't do that in America either. So flip them. Yeah, but it's, it's real interesting and I've, I've very much appreciated getting to watch you guys and everyone else, like how much attention gets paid to constructing a set. I was with Simon Dan from Architects. Jesus Christ, dude. Like, they pay so much attention to like every little bit transitions, bits in between songs and yeah, you're just some fucking dude in the crowd bopping away, having a good time and you don't realize, oh, they played like they played the song from the old album or whatever and you go, yeah. Do you realize how many conversations and like tens of hours were had Just about that one bit.
- [111:31]
C
Oh, yeah.
- [111:32]
A
Of that one section of that show that you went to. It's crazy. It's so cool. It's like it's. It doesn't just effortlessly happen. It's kind of like a comedy set. Right. Like, there's all of this work that goes into it to make it seem effortless on the front end. Yeah.
- [111:48]
C
I mean, we're already talking about, you know, this, this winter getting together and, you know, just, you know, doing some creative stuff, whether it's like demoing or whatever it may be. But it's live show. We're planning our live show and we're planning on. Okay, well, if we're going to play this song, what's the kind of cool interlude or how does it go from this song to this song? Okay, there's a guitar change, so we need to eat up some time. Well, maybe I'll talk over that part. Is it going to be dead silent? There's going to be music under it? Is it going to be, you know, and then start talking like, well, how can we spice up these old songs? We're going to extend the bridge. Am I going to try and get.
- [112:19]
A
Great jokes about America and Canada if you need to throw something?
- [112:25]
C
But yeah, it's. Yeah, a lot of. A lot of thought goes into that and I think that's what makes these shows even more special. I've seen architects a handful of times, and if I wasn't in the shoes I am now, I probably wouldn't have realized all the little details. But, yeah, you can tell if you're looking for it or you're paying attention to the whole set, you can tell that they've put in a lot of work.
- [112:51]
A
Based on your experience, who do you think has got the greatest attention to detail in the world of alternative music as a member of a band or a collective overall?
- [113:01]
C
Bring to the horizon, I was gonna say. Yeah, yeah.
- [113:04]
A
Ollie's level of attention to detail is like a universe warping thing.
- [113:09]
C
It's insane.
- [113:11]
B
Yeah, yeah, I. I think that's the game, you know, I think like paying attention to those 1% details and like nailing them, it's. It's the difference between being Bring me the horizon, right. Like one of the biggest rock bands right now and I guess anyone else, right? It's like Roger Federer has said, you know, one of the greatest tennis players ever, like, has only won like 50, 55% of his points.
- [113:43]
A
Say someone that reads the newsletter. Fucking knew that I liked you, man. I fucking knew that I liked you.
- [113:49]
B
I also like tennis. So, like.
- [113:51]
A
Yeah, yeah. In order to win 80% of his games, he's only won 52% of his points.
- [113:56]
B
Yeah. And that, that's.
- [113:58]
A
And we.
- [113:58]
B
Don't get me wrong, like, we try to. We try to play that game. Like, I think, right? Like, yeah. If you're at a. If you're in the audience eating a corn dog, being like, oh, I'm having a lot of fun with this. Like, you don't realize that not only, like, we have carefully and painstakingly built the live set. Like, we. There have been half the video footage from one of our tours. I filmed in my basement with these dudes. Like, and we just like, paint because we had someone else do it. And we're like, it's just not right. Like, we're just gonna have to do it ourselves. What do you mean?
- [114:31]
A
He filmed it. Filmed what?
- [114:32]
B
So, like, video content in the. In behind us on. On stage. We've.
- [114:38]
A
On the IMAX. Yeah.
- [114:40]
B
Well, the IMAGs would be like, following, right?
- [114:42]
A
Yeah, but it's the screen that. It's in between the imaging.
- [114:45]
C
We had like a character, like, narrate in between every couple songs. And so that character was sweaty.
- [114:50]
A
That's cool.
- [114:51]
B
Yeah. But then even, I mean. Yeah. Going back to the songwriting process, like, I was joking about being like, hey, guys, what do you think if I add this one note where I'm playing at 30% in velocity on the snare drum, most people will never even hear it, but I think that they'll feel that it's there and you. That might make a difference. And it's like paying attention to those little things. Or like. Yeah. And bring these case, like, what is the thing that builds the lore of this whole.
- [115:16]
A
The outfit. Social posts. And then you take it a step further, I suppose, with somebody like Sleep Token. But you also remove things. Right. Which allows you to suck in that speculation 100%, that vacuum.
- [115:27]
B
Yeah.
- [115:28]
A
I mean, I've been thinking an awful lot recently about attention to detail and obsession. I have a conflicted relationship with obsession. Quite an obsessive person, which is good. And the attention to detail, also good. But it comes with quite a high price. And I think you see this with any of my artist friends that are at that kind of a level. I think it's almost impossible to not have chronic self doubt and a high attention to detail. I think that the two things are the same thing. I think the reason that you're pushing so much and that you're paying attention is like, can this be better? Let Me give an example, depending on how old the can of Newtonic. Oh, okay, this is interesting. So this is a slightly older badge. I can tell that this is an older badge from the back here. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. So you see the Instagram logo there? See, it's slightly offset outside of the Follow us to the left. It might not be on that one. That'll be centralized. That should be centralized. So mine and yours will be off to one side and yours should be in the middle. Do you see how mine's offset to the left of the F?
- [116:45]
B
Yep.
- [116:45]
A
Guess who picked that up? Yes. Like, and this is like millions of cans. Deep. Right. This run's been going for ages. And I'm like, oh, somebody left like, half a point to the left. They left aligned it inside of the margin. They didn't center align it inside of the space. Yeah, great. We now have a can that's got this 1%. Not even like 0.0001% improvement. Fantastic. When I'm trying to refine the question idea that I've got for Matthew McConaughey or the way I'm gonna word this new. Oh, the Atlas complex I'm gonna come up with on a newsletter. Not so fantastic in my personal life.
- [117:27]
B
Yeah.
- [117:28]
A
Right. And it's like, hey, Obsession, you're great. It would work. Can I turn you off when, like, you know, I wanna fucking chill out in a nighttime. Yeah, you don't get to do that. It permeates all of you. And I think this is one of the reasons that artists get conflicted a lot of the time. And Ollie is a good example of that. He is a fucking good friend. I've known him for, like, over a decade and a lovely, lovely, lovely guy. But you pay a high price if you want to be Ollie Sykes. You pay a high price if you want to be vessel from sleep token. You pay a high price.
- [118:06]
C
Yeah.
- [118:08]
A
You don't get extraordinary outcomes with ordinary inputs. And these guys have got extraordinary inputs, but they're not all good.
- [118:14]
B
Yeah. I'm convinced that you can't achieve anything great without having high levels of obsession. And it is. I think it's just. Yeah, like, what pain do you want? Do you want the pain of not achieving the big thing that you really want to achieve, or do you want the pain of doing that while knowing that what takes you there also can be an internal struggle every step of the way? Just which pain do you want?
- [118:47]
C
And had a healthy dash of imposter syndrome over it. And it's great.
- [118:53]
B
Yeah.
- [118:54]
A
Mark Manson has this Idea. He says, what are you willing to. What pain do you want in your life? What are you willing to suffer and struggle for? Any pursuit, even the most existentially aligned, will regularly feel like work. So if you're oriented toward the pain, you're more likely going to be aligned with what you can do over the long term as opposed to if you're just oriented toward the pleasure. So everybody says, find what looks like work to everyone else but feels like play to you as a good piece of advice for a competitive advantage, which is unique and n of 1. But that disregard to the fact that even the best pursuits regularly feel like labor. Right? Like being on the bus and sleepless nights and chaos and being away from the family and all the rest of this stuff like that is the price that you pay. If all it was was pleasure, it'd be like, I have no real desire to play a musical instrument, but it would be fun to get the pleasure of just, like, playing on stage. But I don't want to have to spend a decade learning to play an instrument. So orienting yourself toward the prices is better than orienting yourself toward the profits, because people get kicked out. It's the exact same with relationships. It's the exact same with relationships. Relationships don't end because insufficient good times. They end because of too many sufficient bad times. It's not that you're connecting at too shallow of a level, typically. It's that your disconnections are occurring at too deep of a level. And the way that you handle arguments is the best predictor of it. How many people break up because they say, you know, the exciting times, they just weren't that exciting? No, it's because we kept arguing all the time. It's because things were going wrong. It's because we couldn't connect. It's because, you know, it was like an overabundance of problems, not a scarcity of praises, let's say. If that makes sense.
- [120:54]
B
Yeah.
- [120:54]
A
And I think that you see the same thing with people's pursuits. And it's like, you want to be fucking vessel. You want to be Ollie Sykes, okay? This is the mindset that you need to have. And this is the sort of life that you're going to have to lead. This is the amount you want to be Lewis Capaldi. Cause you can't separate his anxiety attacks from his songwriting ability. That his anxiety attacks are his songwriting ability. It's like just this huge. Fuck. It's a onesie, right? It's not an outfit. It's not something that you get to piece together this huge big onesie and you just zip the fucker up and you're like, okay, I guess I'm just him now.
- [121:29]
B
100%.
- [121:29]
A
Yeah.
- [121:30]
B
I mean, yeah. I think about like Bo Burnham comes to mind where I'm like, great example. A genius. I'm like, you are a genius comedian. And also to be that genius, you have panic attacks on stage and I mean, God, I have no idea what. He's just gone. He's gone.
- [121:49]
A
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
- [121:51]
B
It's I, I think, you know, or like Michael Jordan, right. Like you want to be the, the greatest basketball player, but to be that you have to what? A large percentage of people who interact with him would maybe say he's an asshole. You know what I mean?
- [122:04]
A
And still now at the last dance thing seems no, like still conflicted.
- [122:10]
B
Yeah, yeah. And it's interesting, I find, I find it interesting that we are like typically so pain averse as a collective, while also the standard way of life is I'm going to get in a relationship, which means there's going to be a lot of pain in there. Like what with what you were saying. And then I'm going to have children, which is probably one of the, I'm not a parent, but like one of the greatest challenges. And you just accept, you're like, oh, I just don't sleep for years. And. But like the idea, like it's the same principle that like I'm going to sacrifice my life for X period of time for this longer, greater vision that I think it's going to make my life better in the long run if I'm not. Again, I'm not a parent. I think that's what they think. I don't, I don't know. But it's interesting to me that for a lot of people that doesn't necessarily apply to other aspects of their life either, which is. Yeah, for me it's kind of like flipped on the reverse though too where I'm like, oh yeah, I'm, I'm willing to give the, the sacrifice for the career and all that type of stuff. And then you throw a kid in my face and I'm like, I don't know if I'm willing to do that right now. You know what I mean? So I don't know, maybe it's just one or the other.
- [123:32]
C
I don't know. I don't have a kid either, dude.
- [123:34]
A
Yeah, yeah. I, the obsession thing. One, one final point on that I'd love to get your opinion on. So people talk about Sort of the relationship between discipline, motivation, obsession, and I think the reason obsession is kind of having a moment right now. Zach Pogb is a friend of mine, lives in New York, does a lot of running. He's like Mr. Obsession. And I. I think he's fantastic at what he does. I think his new running app is great and everyone should go and download it. I've always been a little conflicted about the obsession thing because I'm trying to detox myself at least a little bit from obsession. I'm trying to become more of a lifestyle maxi than like a. A progress maxi, let's say. And the reason that I think people love obsession so much is it's the freest motivation that you're ever going to get. Like, if you say that sort of motivation is, I kind of want to do this thing, and discipline is, I have to do this thing. Obsession is, I can't not do this thing. So if you think about sort of discipline is you forcing yourself through something, and motivation is you encouraging yourself through something. Obsession is you getting, like, ripped, like, pulled forward by the thing, if that makes sense. It's like. Like being pulled by it. And in some ways that's great, but in other ways, I think it's really dangerous because at least with motivation and discipline, largely, you at least get to tolerate the gas pedal, but with obsession, you never get to turn it off. It's like, oh, I have to. Like, I am compelled. I can't not do this thing.
- [125:12]
B
Well, what.
- [125:13]
A
What if there's a time when you do want to not do that thing? What if you need a weekend off? What if you have had somebody close in your life pass away and you need to think about that? You could, probably could do it dealing with your emotions for a couple of. Couple of weeks or something, and you go, no, no, I must. I must do more tracks. I give songs to play and shows to do it. Hmm. I wonder. I worry that the profits that are very obvious from obsession, free motivation, free discipline, consistency without effort, basically because you're being pulled. I wonder how many people will look back and realize that that was like, just chronic imbalance that felt easy at the time. And in retrospect, they're like, oh, fuck. I don't know whether that was the best decision, and I didn't really have that much choice. So, like, a little bit more scrutiny around obsession might be worthwhile. Like, this is very wet clay fucking bro science at the moment. All right, so, like, it might be.
- [126:27]
B
Largely bullshit, but what's making you rethink what's making you want to step back from Obsession?
- [126:34]
A
I'd done basically the same thing for nearly two decades now, which is just completely bury myself working hard, and that's great, but it can cause you to.
- [126:45]
C
Become.
- [126:48]
A
Myopic and laser focused and blinkered about other things that you could do with your life. And that's not even necessarily other things outside of the project, it's other things within the project. So, for instance, for me to go and do the live shows, it makes my life harder. And financially it's a horrendous decision.
- [127:12]
B
There, for sure.
- [127:13]
A
It's. I mean, even, you know, we. We're going to do shows between 1500 and 750ish caps, so they are perfectly profitable. And apart from the fact that I've got to fly a fucking ton of people out, it's fine. But if I was making a business decision, I would just continue to do the show. If I was making a platform decision, I'd just continue to do the show. If I was making a lifestyle decision, I'd just continue. Like all of the elements of Obsession would point me away from variation, be like, do more of the thing. But that doesn't necessarily live. Lead you to a varied, well lived, adventurous life. And yeah, I'm thinking much more about what do I sort of want to look back, what, what are the memory dividends that I want to give myself in future. And maybe that means letting go of some modes of validation and, and positive reinforcement that I know work and rolling the dice on some. I'm like, huh, I'll see if this. I'll see how this makes me feel. Maybe this would just be different or interesting. Maybe this will contribute to longevity, consistency, like, stick with it ness over time. Because I'm not gonna just like, continue to grind away and grind away and grind away. But I've just done. I've done business and like, hard. Lots of time in front of a laptop or walking and talking on the phone, coming up with ideas or writing or doing whatever. I've done that for a long time. I'm like, I think maybe trying to remove the blinkers a little bit is a bit of a good idea. The equivalent of an acoustic track, I guess, on an album.
- [128:55]
B
Track eight in particular.
- [128:57]
A
Track eight, yeah, yeah.
- [128:58]
B
Do you. In the back of your head, do you think at all of like, well, like, if the obsession is still like chirping at you, like, do you still think like, okay, well, yeah, like, obviously, like, I would keep doing the thing, but also knowing that if I'm gonna Keep doing the thing. Like, sticking with the main format and repeating what works is really important, but there also has to be room for that 20% experimentation. Knowing that 18% of those experiments will flop. But those 2% might be a new format that I can now use and build. Like, do you find the obsession kind of sneaking in that way, or is it purely like, I just want to do this for me, because I think it's, like, a cool thing?
- [129:42]
A
Yeah, that's. It's a really great question. I guess this is the same as, you know, the second album, third album, syndrome, the bands have, where they go. We got famous for doing that thing. Yeah. We just do it again. We just do it again. Right. We could just run it back. Like, people want more. They love that last one. They just want more of the same.
- [130:03]
C
Right.
- [130:06]
A
Yeah. The opportunity to experiment. One of the slight difficulties that you have with this is that there's no such thing as practicing in private.
- [130:16]
B
Yeah.
- [130:16]
A
Every single. We didn't go through this. We didn't dry run this in a rehearsal space yesterday. Oh, when you say that, I'm gonna make a dick joke. And when you do that, you know, we'll do Silly Bus Time. Like, Nice.
- [130:28]
B
It's stuck.
- [130:29]
A
Yeah, it is. It's. It's in. You don't get to do that. So everybody gets to watch you fail in public. You sort of learn out loud over and over again, and that's great because you get to track the journey, and it's like, oh, how interesting is this? You know, it would be like if every demo. In fact. No, it would be like if every practice session on the drums was published on the Internet.
- [130:54]
B
Oh, my God.
- [130:55]
A
Right? Because there's no such thing as practicing. There's no such thing as, like, you can perform in private. You can't do that here, and you can't even practice in private. When I could do a pod with someone that was just a friend that I wouldn't ever publish. But the stakes aren't there, which means that no one's gonna take it as seriously as you need to because you don't have the scrutiny and the fear of the audience. So, yeah, it's an interesting one, man. It's a very unique position to be in and experimentation. New studio, which is just right now being built a couple of miles away from here. That'll be exciting. Awesome. Trying to do stuff like the McConaughey thing. Running that back.
- [131:37]
B
Yeah.
- [131:37]
A
Just. Okay. What. What. What's new? What's different? Trying to integrate music into the next live show. Like the Australia, Canada, Australia, New Zealand one next year. That'll be interesting. Okay, what. What are some areas where that 20 exists where I might be able to find the two? And. Yeah, it'll be. It'll be exciting. But that being said, when I see the degrees of freedom and the amount of experimentation that somebody like an Ollie or a Noah or whatever is. Is able to play with or you guys, like, fuck, like, it feels. I want to embrace more of that. I think it's very admirable. I think you guys are very fortunate that you have so much artistic freedom. I think that's something that you shouldn't take lightly because there are much more constricted modes of putting your ideas and your thoughts and your emotions out there. And you guys have one of the ones that's the freest, as is shown by the fact that you can release a fucking acoustic track and not just release it. Release it. And it'd be received unbelievably well. Yeah, trying to. Trying to embrace that. That opportunity to be all right, we can be a bit more experimental. What do you wish when you sort of think about the next few years for the band? What would you love to experiment a little bit more with? Like, have you got ideas for how you want the live show to look? Ideas for how you want new sounds to come through? Like, what are you working toward? Yeah.
- [133:12]
C
All of it. I mean, from. From the. You know, now with. With this sonic change, we have still rediscovering what the next chapter iteration is going to be. This is just the beginning, you know, what we get into now. Get to see what. What works and what may not work and just with the music alone, but then going to the live shows and, you know, we've done practical stage setups with. We had a tour where there's a wrestling ring and it was rage on the stage. And then we went and did the thing where it was just video content and as crazy as video content we could to incorporate with the songs, whether it was lyrics or just these crazy scenes that we're standing in front of. And now how do we incorporate the two to have this massive look? And how do we. How do we keep making the. The live show better? How do we transition from this song to the next song and make this memorable moment? And. And yeah, it's just like you said. I think we're very lucky to be in this position as. As challenging as it is also lucky to have all this open ground. It's a little daunting and scary to look at the big picture of it and go, okay, what do we do first? Where do we go from here? What. What is the best move? Because, like, you're saying, it's like you're trying things and you're trying them in front of million people, you know, and they're, you know, failure is going to feel bad, but if you crush it, it's going to feel so rewarding. But we, if you look at all these different things, you know, in, in categories, it's. It's exciting to, to look and see, you know, I'm. I'm ready to get back in the studio and start writing. I'm ready to get with the guys in this off time and start playing out the live show. Which songs are going to be, you know, what's going to be the encore? What's going to be the first song?
- [134:57]
B
What.
- [134:57]
C
What. What's going to be to the, to the merchandise, to the, the stock. You know, everything. It's. There's a big open road and it's, it's exciting to see. It's just exciting to think about what's gonna come from our creative hive mind here.
- [135:14]
A
Yeah.
- [135:15]
B
Yeah. I think, like, I'm thinking about the obsession piece and I think, like, for myself, probably for a lot of artists across music or whatever, I feel like obsession comes from scarcity of, like, I have to be obsessed about this because I, I. This could end at any time. We could put out again. This is, I don't think this is true, but, like, I think the insecurity on our part is with everything being an experiment or fully creative, it's. We don't have that format we can keep coming back to because then people go like, let me put it this way. If you put out the, the podcast format, you've got the three cameras, you go back and forth, you can bring in a new guest, ask good questions. People aren't going to be like, I'm so sick of you sitting in a room asking people good questions and hearing thoughtful responses. You don't hear that as much, at least is my assumption. Yeah, right. But if we.
- [136:13]
A
I prefer the old question.
- [136:15]
B
Yeah, exactly, exactly. But if we, yeah, if we keep trying to recreate the same song, people are like, like, I just like the original song. Stop trying to do the same thing. I want to hear something new. And so we're constantly in this state of like, okay, let's try to balance these people who like our old music. They might say that they want the same, but they don't want the same. But then if we Give them the new. They're like, I don't like it because it's new. And so it's like, it feels like your whole career is balanced on like, we release one bad song and everyone rejects us and hates us. It's not true. But that's the insecurity and, and that's like the scarcity of that. This whole thing could end like that at any time. And so I'm going to obsess to try to build as strong of a foundation as possible so that if an experiment goes wrong, meaning a song is not received well or a tour doesn't sell the way you want it to, that we're still okay. Like, we're. We got the next thing coming up and we got the next song and you know. Yeah, so it's a bit. Well, yes, I agree. Like, the creativity of it is great. As a, As a fellow YouTuber, I know what it's like to be like, this format works. We're just gonna put swap this word in the title. Boom, we got a video, we're good to go. Thumbnail. We know exactly what it's going to be. But yeah, in the world of like creating a song, it's like, what do we think is cool?
- [137:37]
A
I would really struggle, I think, with the pressure of getting it right.
- [137:41]
B
Yeah.
- [137:41]
A
Because, yeah, you're right. I put an episode out. You know, some people liked it, but nobody liked it.
- [137:48]
B
Sure.
- [137:48]
A
Doesn't matter. It's one of a thousand.
- [137:50]
B
Exactly.
- [137:50]
A
Literally one of a thousand.
- [137:51]
B
Got many more coming that week, people already, Right.
- [137:53]
A
You don't like it on a Thursday, Wait two days.
- [137:56]
B
Yeah.
- [137:56]
A
There's another one on Saturday. Wait two more days. There's another one on Monday.
- [137:59]
B
Yep.
- [138:01]
A
The sphincter tensing concern of album release morning.
- [138:10]
B
Yeah.
- [138:11]
A
What are people gonna say? What are the reviews gonna be like? What's Reddit gonna say about it? What's, you know, like, fucking. Are people gonna download it? People gonna stream or what are they gonna. Like, That's a lot. And you've spent all of this time and you've poured bits of yourself into it and you've second guessed it and yeah, that would be. That must be a. That's a real, A real, real challenge. I think I'd very much struggle with that.
- [138:31]
B
It is. I think we had, we had one experience this year. I mentioned that. I think kind of put that in perspective. So, you know, we've, we've had this whole situation of like, okay, we're coming out as a band with a new lineup and releasing our first Song as like the new lineup the day before our manager dies in a plane crash. And it's like perspective just dawns on you so fast of. I mean we've been working right, like I said for 14, 15 months on this. This one moment of like we can't fuck this part up. This is our coming out party of new song, new lineup. And for all of that buildup to then have like the tragic event happen the day before, it was a perspective shift of like dude, I don't. I don't care. Like we, yes, we put this out but like we lost one of our guys. Like to put it out without him like just felt wrong in itself. So I think like, I don't know. I. It. It's a helpful reshift of man. We are just so self centered I think as. As people and just like thinking about like what are people going to think about this? What are people going to think about this? What are people gonn about this? But like in that moment it's just like, oh dude, none of this, none of this actually matters. I enjoy doing it. I want people to connect with it. That is still my goal. I still do have the, you know, with. With the following singles. Like I still had that thought but it's like, oh, but in the grand scheme of things, like this is. This is a two and a half minute song.
- [140:42]
C
Yeah.
- [140:43]
B
And if people don't like it. Okay. And if people like it, that's super cool. But yeah, kind of like what, what you were talking about earlier, man. Like I'm not my. I'm not gonna miss my life because of this one song. Because something just tragic happened in my life. I'm gonna make sure that like I'm with my people. Like seeing how you guys are doing, seeing how everyone affected is doing. Yeah. Perspective can dawn on you real in a single moment pretty quickly.
- [141:16]
C
Yeah, man. That was very, very tough and conflicting time and emotions you're building up for this like excitement. Here we go, here we go. About to pull the trigger. Here we go. Countdown begins. You know, two weeks away, a week away. We're getting the video back a couple days before and lining up the artwork, getting the single, all this stuff doing the. The press, the. The week of. To have it all drop the you know, days following and. And then waking up 24 hours before the song comes out. I think it was 24 hours. I think it was that. That night it was coming out, I believe. Yeah.
- [141:49]
B
Technically at midnight.
- [141:50]
C
So you know, waking up to the worst, man. Waking up to the worst Phone call and. And then it's all of that. All of that's gone. All that, that. The excitement, all the, the pressure, all the, the unans. The unknown is. It doesn't matter anymore. It doesn't matter. And yeah, it's been a really, really eye openening, really difficult release just with all of that happening on top of the change, the lineup change, the, the. The uncertainty, the unknowns, and then having that guy that you just call and text anytime if, you know, oh man, I'm sorry.
- [142:37]
B
I just.
- [142:42]
C
Having that rock that you're like, oh, man, I'm gonna call him if, you know, we're freaking out about this release or the, you know, what are the comments going to be? Oh, I got Dave. I can just hit up and he'll ease my mind over it. And you kind of realize what's. What's most important in life. All this. It doesn't matter. Take a shot on something and flops. It's not the end of the world, you know, it.
- [143:03]
B
There's.
- [143:04]
C
There's going to be more opportunity to come, you know, and. Yeah, it's been a crazy time. It's been a crazy time in the I Prevail camp.
- [143:13]
B
Yep. Yeah. I mean, it's weird because I feel like we were talking about it earlier almost in the opposite sense of like, well, I want to, like, I want to live life and like doing exciting things. It's like, that is living life. But then it does always kind of come back to like, yeah, but who was with you? Yeah, like, who are the relationships? Like, it. It. I. My perspective is I. I don't know that unless they're bad relationships, it's. It's worth losing relationships over. You know, I don't know what Keith Urban thinks. You know, maybe that's. That that was a even trade for him and. God, I don't know what his. What his situation was. I can't even begin to comment on it. But like, yeah, I think what, What's. What's the sacrifice? What's the cost? And like, I think it's fair to ask, like, is it worth it or not? A lot of the times I think that answer can be yes, but I think starts to get dicey when it's relationships, like, if that. If that's the cost of losing good relationships, like, I don't know. Yeah.
- [144:20]
A
Dude, it is a. It sounds like it's been a series of being kicked in the dick months so far this year. I'm sorry that you guys have had to go through that. I'm really sorry.
- [144:34]
C
We appreciate it, man. Yeah, it's been. It's been tough. It's honestly, you know, in a point where you're supposed to be like, all right, this is the most exciting thing that's going to happen in the next couple months, getting to see what people say and have new music and material, and then, you know, that happens, and we each all have personal things going on at the same time, and it's been tough, but I think you find strength through the struggle. And I think our relationship within each other, within. Within the band has only gotten stronger. I think relationships just outside our inner circle have gotten stronger. Yeah, I've. I've always been someone that's tried to keep that mentality of, like, positive mental attitude and strength through struggle. You know, you go through something, okay, what am I going to learn right now from this? To carry and. And learn a lesson from or. Or whatever. Whatever it may be. But, yeah, it's been tough, but I've learned a lot, and I think we've all learned a lot, and I think it. It, you know, that's all you can really do is. Is grow from it and. And learn life lessons the hard way and. And implement them down the road and be. Try to be a better person or a better friend or a better, you know, family member, whatever it may be, a better bandmate. And yeah, yeah, it's.
- [145:59]
B
It.
- [145:59]
C
You know, try not. Try not to dwell on it and just take the lessons as they come.
- [146:06]
A
Well, I mean, you're gonna have one hell of an amount of deep emotional. Well to tap into when it comes to writing the next record. And, you know, what better of a tribute to somebody that's a huge part of the band than to just keep doing the thing that they wanted you to crush at, you know? I think you see this with Architects.
- [146:24]
C
Oh, absolutely. That. That was. Oh, man. Tragic. Tragic. And then hearing the record. I've been a fan of them for a while, so, like, hearing the records leading up to his passing and then going back and really understanding the lyrics in context.
- [146:42]
A
They won't play that tribute song live anymore. They refuse to. I think that's track eight as well on their album, interestingly enough. And they'll play. On this most recent tour, they play the sort of, like, interlude, and then they play an intro. They play like a bridge in the intro thing. And then just as the lyrics are about to start, they just kill it and they just go into the next track. Yeah, and, yeah, they were like, it's just too fucking heavy to play live. But, yeah, man, I'm sure that he's feeling real proud of what you guys have done. I really think he will be.
- [147:23]
B
Thanks, man.
- [147:23]
C
I appreciate that, man.
- [147:25]
A
Yeah, yeah.
- [147:31]
B
Yeah. It's, man. Just grateful. Grateful to, like, have. Have other people that, like, we can be open about it with, you know, like, not. Not everyone has that, dude.
- [147:47]
A
Imagine if you were a solo artist.
- [147:48]
B
100.
- [147:49]
C
Oh, yeah.
- [147:50]
A
You're just some bloke on a bus.
- [147:52]
B
Yeah.
- [147:53]
A
With a new manager.
- [147:54]
C
Yeah.
- [147:55]
A
With. With the same. Or maybe the lighting guy. Maybe you've got, like. Maybe it's Maybe like you're fucking. Yeah. Your LD or like your TM or something is, like, kind of cool.
- [148:03]
B
Yeah.
- [148:04]
A
And you have a bit of a chat with them, but no one else really knows what you're going through or the pressure of the performance or anything else. So, yeah, when you say, like, the relationships and the camaraderie that you have in the band. Yeah, sure. Would it be great if you didn't have to split the measly tiny amount of money that the record labels drip feed to you? The fucking end of the Human Centipede? Would it be nice if it didn't have to go, like, four other ways on top of your way? Maybe. But then how much harder would it be? Like, it would be more than five times harder.
- [148:39]
C
Oh, yeah.
- [148:39]
A
You know?
- [148:40]
B
Yeah.
- [148:41]
A
So bad mates are expensive, but when you look at them in terms of, like, motivation, fuel, they're probably pretty cheap.
- [148:46]
B
Yeah. I think I. I think, like, we all are trying to impress each other in a certain way, which, like, grows all of what we do. Because I think a lot of the guys in the band are very impressive individuals and impressive people. So it's like, okay, well, if I'm gonna. If I'm gonna stay in this, I gotta really show up.
- [149:08]
A
So that's one. That's one thing that I've noticed at least since spending a bit of time around bands, there is this odd balance between the need to keep morale high, especially on tour, and the understanding that if you suppress your emotions for too long that it's gonna fuck you up. Yep. Because if you're moping like, I know for a fact that there are ancillary. Maybe not quite central. In fact. No, I know. I know for a fact, too. We all know that there are people that are part of band constructs who are more talented than they need to be, but a sufficiently difficult hang that they actually can't survive in the world of being on the road with the other people that are there. It's like, loved the video girl, thought she was brilliant. Fuck me, she did my head in. She can't stay. Well, we're not gonna get someone better at video. I would happily have someone half as good at video who is like fucking 90% less annoying.
- [150:19]
B
Yeah.
- [150:20]
A
Or whatever it might be, Right. It's just clash of personalities, class of culture, whatever. And one of the things I think that's in the back of the mind of lots of artists that are spending time on the road is must keep morale high. If I'm struggling and I steam into the fucking back Lounge at 11am and go, today sucks. Everything's hard, I'm tired, my back hurts. You know, you just unload all of this. Well, now everybody else is feeling that way. And you don't want to be the guy that brings the vibe down.
- [150:47]
B
Yeah.
- [150:48]
A
But also, if you're in this permanent, like, constant state of denial, at what point are you allowed to actually have. I'm struggling, man. I miss whoever it is. I miss this person. Or I've been thinking about this. Or me and the Mrs. Are like, we had a tough conversation last night. You don't have any room for that. So you've got this weird. I gotta perform on stage and then I also kind of have to fucking perform to my bandmates to an amount. And I gotta sort of tolerate the temper, the fucking dose. Right. We gotta like dilute down, triage this fucking sadness, the realness. Or maybe go like, I can. I can talk to the playback tech. Like, he's good. Like, I'm all right to talk to him about how sad I am or whatever. But, like, I can't unload it on the band because I want to make sure that like, Eric got a big night tonight. His family's all coming. He's going to be a bit more nervous than you. Like, whatever. The, like, it permeates everything.
- [151:47]
C
Yeah, yeah. That's something we've, we've had. I think every band's had like, whether it's crew or band member or something that's. That's just going through something and. And doesn't know the best time to dump. And over the years, the crew that we've. We've had that return for multiple years. We have strong relationships with them. The guys in the. Within the band and the. The crew that are on the bus with us been doing it for long enough. I feel like we have our own little. I don't say clicks, but, you know, Gabe and Steve have a lot of things in common. Dylan and our other guitarists and I Have a lot of things in common. John and I have in common things. So there's different types, days that were, you know, a day off or something. Us two are going to go hang and, and if I'm having one of those days, I really need to talk sometimes. Like if I, if I bring it up, it's. I just gotta, I gotta find about something like are you emotionally available right now for me to like dump on the. Dump on you real quick? Oh yeah, yeah, sure. But I think we've been doing this so long that I, I could just. I don't know, I feel like, I feel like I was going through it on this last year up to her pretty heavy and I didn't say and because I know everyone's going through it with, with Dave and everything else going on around the camp and I just, you know, kind of bit my tongue and kind of stayed shut in. And I'm usually one of the guys that's like, I'm gonna go check out this band. We're on this fest today. I'm gonna hop from this stage to this stage, go have some beers with them and do this. And I just didn't do any of it. And I, I'm grateful to have these guys be so in tune with each other that they see something go on. They, they, they know, they know. And before I even know sometimes that I'm. I'm falling off the wagon emotionally or doing stepped in, they stopping like, hey, let's dude, come have a beer with me. We're going to the bar tonight. Like come on, come out and, and it just gets brought up in conversation. I talk it out and it's like, damn, I really needed that.
- [153:53]
A
I really need being in tune.
- [153:55]
C
Yeah.
- [153:55]
A
But again the solo artist thing, dude. And I mean this is another, another challenge like something else that people don't realize with their favorite band. As soon as you move from mid level to just beyond where you guys are, as opposed to being on the bus, you'll probably be able to get hotels every night.
- [154:15]
C
Yeah.
- [154:15]
A
And wouldn't that be wonderful? Ah, so much better.
- [154:18]
B
Sleep.
- [154:18]
A
Oh, I'm on my own yeah I'm in a room I'm on my own I'm in a room on my own.
- [154:24]
B
Yeah.
- [154:25]
A
And that again. Velvet handcuff. Do you know how few bat you remember being in the fucking transit thing? Sleeping on the roof, whatever the fuck.
- [154:34]
C
And then Walmart parking lots, man. Yeah.
- [154:37]
A
And you're like, okay, now we've got a. But wouldn't it be great. But wouldn't it be great if we had hotels and it. For every level, there's a devil, there's a way to look at it.
- [154:45]
B
I like that. Yeah. I mean.
- [154:46]
A
Yeah.
- [154:46]
B
Do you. Is Taylor Swift getting a ton of sympathy? You know? Not really.
- [154:50]
C
No.
- [154:51]
B
But yeah, like someone who's on her own on. On her private jet, but also alone, very lonely.
- [154:57]
A
Yeah. Would it be better? I mean, I. My tour, we get to fly, me and the guys, we can pick a row. Like, hey, we get to pick our seats.
- [155:05]
B
Yeah.
- [155:05]
A
Like, that's kind of nice. Like, you know, you've got it board together. You're in the airport, and maybe you get yourself some fucking, like, tacos or something. Yeah. And there is this weird isolation that comes with. Not that comes with success, because that sounds like it's like the ethos of being successful or something. There is a type of isolation that is afforded by luxury, like, structurally afforded. Well, you know, you don't need to get the bus. You can get an Uber. We don't need to get the Uber. You can get a driver. So you don't even. It's the same guy and he knows that you don't want to. About talk York or whatever.
- [155:39]
B
Yep.
- [155:40]
A
Like, you don't need to be in the van. You can be in the bus. You don't need to be in the bus. You can be in the hotel. Don't need to be in the hotel. You can be each in your own bus. And then on your. You know, and you become increasingly isolated.
- [155:51]
B
Yeah, well, I mean, this can even happen to people at home too, right? It's like, oh, I just want a cool house with like. I'm sick of going to the gym. I want a gym in my house. That'd be cool. Okay, cool. You get a gym in your house and then you're like, I'm sick of always having to, like, go out for meals. I'm just gonna doordash everything. And I'm sick of going out to the pool. I just want a pool in my own house. And before you know it, it's like, you just build. This is not from experience, by the way.
- [156:15]
A
But.
- [156:15]
B
But, like, you know, for people who are successful, it's like, yeah, cool. Now I have this place where I don't have to go anywhere. And that actually kind of sucks.
- [156:23]
A
Yeah, I'm sick. I'm sick of having to. I'm sick of getting complained at by my wife when I want to play video games. I just want a video game room. You have a video game room and you spend two hours less Per day with your wife?
- [156:32]
B
Yeah, yeah, yeah. And, yeah, it's. I'm grateful for the complexities of living with a bunch of smelly men. And we have a system for this. So, yes, there's navigating, like, our own emotional internal struggle with each other. And, yeah, those, I think, are done typically through, like, one on ones. You're like, oh, let's go grab lunch or whatever, and, hey, man, my whole life sucks. And then you talk about that. Right? But then how do we all work together and not build resentment together? A lot of testosterone. You know, we're artists, so there's maybe a lot on the lower side, but we've built a system called Sunday smackdowns. So every Sunday on the road, we will just kind of group together, and it's kind of like, hey, this is the time. Like, how. How's everything gone this past week? Are we good?
- [157:30]
A
Is there any debrief?
- [157:31]
B
Yeah. And I mean, it can either be personal of, like, hey, that thing you said the other day actually, like, really pissed me off. Like, can we kind of talk about that a little bit? Or, hey, dude, I think, like, what you're saying during this part of the set is not landing, like. Or, Gabe, your timing on this song is actually not great. Or your wardrobe is, like, pretty lame, actually. Right. Like, kind of the. Just an opportunity for us to come together. And it's like creating the umbrella of we are open for criticism and we are open or constructive feedback, whatever you want to say.
- [158:10]
C
Fearless feedback.
- [158:11]
B
Fearless feedback, yeah. And also able to give it. And it kind of. It disintegrates. This awkward thing that I think a lot of us experience in relationships where, let's say your girlfriend thinks, like, you know, hey, everything's all good, then you kind of have to have this awkward moment. You're like, hey, I want to bring something up. And now it's like, oh, she wasn't expecting you to bring something up. And now it's kind of like, well, hey, I was just kind of like, wanting to have a nice little Sunday afternoon, and now you're coming to me with this thing that I did yesterday. I don't really feel like talking about it, but it's important to you, so we'll talk about it. But I'm kind of on, like. Like, now I'm on edge. But I think, honestly, just literally having, hey, this is a thing that we do. And, hey, if we sit down, we're like, all good? Yes. Okay, cool. Let's see later. But it just creates an environment to be able to like open up about it and like not have that like.
- [159:07]
A
Butting of heads in a non judgmental way. It's really smart.
- [159:10]
C
Yeah, that's especially walking off stage if something frustrated you or you bumped into like, we don't do like much blocking, but it's like, oh, dude, I was, I was gonna step up on the riser with the, the spotlight and at that point or like, you know, whatever, whatever it may be, it's like, don't have to walk off stage and it's still burning in my brain and it's. The other guy doesn't even know he did it. And now I have to bring this up and. Well now you just look back on that show that like it sucked and then it's gonna roll into your next show and all that. So to have that where it's like.
- [159:38]
B
Yeah, like a week ago. I've been thinking about it.
- [159:40]
C
Honestly, it didn't even really bother me that much. I'm just gonna say right now. But I've cooled off over it too. Like it's. But then you're not ruining someone's show the next time. Then you're. When you go to perform, you just, you're thinking about that and you're not thinking about being in the moment of performing. And yeah, I think it's very helpful we started doing that.
- [159:58]
A
Dale Carnegie wrote a lesser known second book that's called how to Stop Worrying and Start Living. And in it he advocates for something called Worry Time. And that's basically what you guys have got, which is if your brain knows when it's going to be able to ruminate about something, it's able to release at least a little bit of the need to ruminate right now as opposed to you like getting just a tiny bit of sand flicked at you every second. You just pick this big rock up at the end of the week. And I think that's really smart. There's this fucking wonderful idea from Neil Strauss. He says unspoken expectations are premeditated resentment.
- [160:37]
B
Whoa.
- [160:37]
A
Wow, that's shit. Yeah, it's a fucking, it's a real like, oh, that's so true. Yeah, that's so true. I didn't tell you that I wanted you to do this thing and then you didn't do it and I got mad at you or I didn't tell you that this thing pissed me off and I wanted you to stop and then you kept doing it and I got mad at you. Unspoken expectations are premeditated resentments. And what you're doing is you're allowing yourselves to have a free non judgmental forum where people are able to bring up any of the spoken expectations, right. And they're able to get away from those metastasizing into resentments. I think it's, it's, it's clever. I wonder how many bands would have improved their longevity if they'd implemented. What's it, Smackdown Sundays. Yeah, Sunday Smackdown. Yeah, I think we're licensing it right now. The Silly Bus and Silly Bus time.
- [161:33]
C
I got a tattoo to my finger already, so you can't take it, baby.
- [161:37]
A
That's exactly the same as registering it with the fucking trademark office.
- [161:41]
C
Yeah.
- [161:41]
A
As soon as you get it tattooed and you're the first person to get it tattooed and say, sorry, Nike, someone got it tattooed on them in 1940 or some bullshit. Gabe and Eric, I appreciate the fuck out of both of you. I think the new record's fantastic. Everyone should go and stream it. Are you touring? When are you touring next? Or have you not released that?
- [161:58]
B
Haven't released it at the moment. We're playing Warped Tour in November. But yeah, really busy next year. That people will see.
- [162:05]
A
We're.
- [162:05]
B
We're in Europe. Yep. In October. That's announced. September. October. Yeah, something like that. And then, yeah, to. To be determined.
- [162:12]
C
Yeah. Lots of stuff coming though, so keep an eye. We'll be, we'll be touring. We were just saying we're gonna be touring like, you know, like four or five months a year. It's a lot more than that this year, I think.
- [162:20]
B
Yeah, yeah, yeah. I would also just like to sign off by saying, Chris, your calves are magnificent. So jealous. I did not know this about you. It has not been addressed, at least from what I've seen and damn.
- [162:34]
A
Thanks, man. I wondered why you were looking at that angle. I thought it was something else. I would say. I would say sort of the forearm and calf, the extremities.
- [162:44]
B
Oh yeah.
- [162:45]
A
I do well at the extremities. As you get more toward the middle, less conditioned, you get out toward the end. Very, very lean and very well conditioned. Boys, you're great. The new record fucking slaps. I'm so happy to see you. I thought you crushed it when I saw you at Summer of Loud as well. And I'm looking forward to the tour. I'll be there.
- [163:00]
B
Nice.
- [163:00]
C
Thanks for having us.
- [163:04]
A
If you are looking for new reading suggestions, look no further than the Modern Wisdom reading list. It is 100 books that you should read before you die. The most interesting, life changing and impactful books I've ever read with descriptions about why I like them and links to go and buy them. And you can get it right now for free by going to ChrisWillX.com books that's ChrisWillX.com books.