Modern Wisdom #1024 – Jon Bellion: The Art of an Authentic Comeback

Date: November 24, 2025
Host: Chris Williamson
Guest: Jon Bellion

Episode Overview

This deeply personal and candid conversation explores Jon Bellion's return to music after a 6-year hiatus. Together with Chris Williamson, Jon delves into creative integrity, the price of success, the anatomy of an authentic comeback, fatherhood, and redefining the meaning of fulfillment in life and art. The discussion moves through Jon’s journey away from the limelight, lessons from failures and victories, and the philosophical and practical side of making music and building a legacy. Ultimately, it’s about finding meaning in ordinary life and reconnecting with what matters.

Key Topics & Insights

I. The Hiatus and Comeback

[00:05 – 04:06]

• Why Jon Bellion Stopped Touring

  • Touring’s toll on his life, finances, and sense of self led him to step away despite previous success.
  • "I've toured for a really long time before I walked away from artistry for about six or seven years… the business just didn't make sense… So I've walked away from that a long time ago." (Jon, 00:05)
  • Recent return: two sold-out nights at Forest Hills Stadium—these shows earn more than full tours used to.

• Emotional Impact of Return

  • Surprised by fans’ loyalty after a long absence.
  • No unrealistic expectations attached; Bellion’s growth as a person and artist made the return "moving."
  • "Looking out at a stadium, sold out two nights in a row. And I've never done that six years ago. And somehow it got bigger." (Jon, 01:22)

• "Six-Year Game of Chicken" with the Label

  • Jon held out for creative and financial control—label eventually gave in.
  • Therapy and faith played large roles in accepting the possibility he might never return.

II. Scarcity, Authenticity & Artistic Integrity

[04:06 – 08:22]

• Fans’ Engagement after Scarcity

  • Scarcity fueled excitement, not constant content: “The content stuff... it’s just not for me. It causes me to not be present with my family.” (Jon, 04:28)
  • “I’m not selling a chair, I’m selling me... This is my art... and if someone doesn’t like it it’s like they don’t like me. That’s tough.” (Jon, 04:28)
  • Social media, self-obsession, and branding as an artist versus as a craftsman.

• Staying True to Instinct

  • Discusses the pressure to chase trends and how detaching from expectations allowed for genuine art.
  • “Instinct is the only thing that’s ever led you right.” (Chris, 08:22)
  • “Ever, ever. Oh my gosh.” (Jon, 08:31)

III. The Role of Support & Re-Balancing

[09:09 – 11:01]

• The Importance of Support: Jon’s Wife
  • “I just don't know how. My wife is unbelievable... She almost knows who I am... She really does just want to see me happy.” (Jon, 09:37)
  • Willingness to risk everything again, with her encouragement.
  • Family as an anchor: major life changes in those six years, including having three children.

IV. Creative Process, Relevance & Social Media

[11:12 – 14:39]

• Anonymous Comeback

  • Used a blank Instagram account and indirect channels to share new work—removing his name freed him from pressure.
  • “Social media is just not for me... When I removed it from my name and it was just this like, doing this thing, I knew that the real fans would care.” (Jon,12:33)

• Fear of Irrelevance

  • “One of my deepest fears creatively is 100% my ideas not being valued to be brought to affect other people.” (Jon, 12:45)
  • Relevance only matters as a vehicle for creating and sharing utility, not as an end in itself.

V. Faith, Taste, and Artistic Utility

[14:39 – 19:01]

• Faith and Agency

  • The dance between belief in divine guidance/inspiration and personal agency: “God doesn’t want to do all of the work, some of it is left up to you.” (Chris, 14:39)
  • Songs made purely from taste and instinct rather than for hits led to unexpected success.

• On “Taste”

  • Taste defined as an ability to distinguish—often mystical, hard to blueprint, ever-evolving.

• Utility vs. Purity

  • Balancing artistry for self versus service: sometimes you make art for yourself, sometimes you collaborate for others’ needs—“Sometimes boxed wine sells... There’s utility in that.” (Jon, 21:25)

VI. The Growth of Wisdom and Finding Balance

[23:13 – 35:38]

• Certainty, Experience, and Confidence

  • Youth fosters certainty; experience breeds humility and acceptance of uncertainty.
  • Programming and intuition carry seasoned artists and performers.
  • “As you get more experience, your certainty decreases.” (Chris, 23:13)

• Highwire Acts & Preparation

  • As experience grows, rehearsal requirements shrink, and comfort with risk/failure increases.

• On the In-Betweens

  • Emphasizing embracing the “gray,” messy space between vanity and humility, artistry and utility.

VII. The Value of Normalcy & Fatherhood

[40:38 – 49:03]

• Loving the Mundane

  • Joy found in daily fatherhood, driving home from shows, “cleaning diapers the next day”—not fame or validation.
  • “Being average is the greatest thing in my life.” (Jon, 40:40)
  • “Celebrity. Miss me with that. I’ve never had a conversation with a famous motherfucker... 'Best decision I ever made—being famous.' Never.” (Jon, 40:41)
  • Rejection of the “4th of July every day” mentality—fulfillment in routine and ordinariness.

• Passing Down Lessons

  • His own father’s encouragement and example of support and consistency shaped his self-belief and his music.

Notable Quote

"I get in a minivan and drive home from a stadium and wake up and clean diapers the next day. I got it all. I got it all. Because... the shit that I almost missed."
— Jon Bellion [40:41]

VIII. Art, Talent, and the Game

[54:47 – 76:55]

• On Talent, Taste, and Social Navigation
  • Most technically talented people don’t necessarily make popular or resonant music; it’s about connecting, communicating, feeling.
  • Jon admires industry greats (Max Martin, Pharrell, Rick Rubin) not for technical skill but wisdom from decades in the craft.

On "The Game"

• Navigating business, socializing, and adaptability are “talents” as important as pure artistry.
• “Some people are talented at just working the system.” (Jon, 70:40)
• The need for both the artistic purity and willingness to play the business/social game.

IX. Consistency and the Athlete Mentality

[74:21 – 76:55]

• Create Like an Artist, Operate Like an Athlete

  • Consistency and repetition are vital; operate like an athlete with discipline and humility, not just as an “artiste."

• Letting Go & Creative Flow

  • You can’t will creativity or force inspiration. “You can’t white knuckle creativity.” (Chris, 76:21)
  • Remain open, humble; “If the thing bigger than you doesn’t come in, you will never have energy.”

X. Purpose of "Father Figure" and Lessons from Fatherhood

[77:07 – 109:06]

• The New Album: Process & Purpose

  • Created for self and legacy, not commercial return; saw it as a “commercial to stir the soup”—pure process.
  • “If I could soothe the guy who has lost sight of the fact that fathers are important... I hope for 47 minutes... you can be reminded you’ve never lost the path far enough where you can't return to your kids.” (Jon, 84:06)

• Fatherhood and Brokenness

  • The purpose is to reinforce the importance of fathers, and to tell men: “You are not damaged so badly you can't return to your children because your children need you, whether you like that fact or not.” (Jon, 84:06)
  • Acknowledges uncertainty and fear in fatherhood, carrying forward the good and working through the bad handed down from family line.

Notable Quote

"Fathers are very important... Cosmically. DNA from Saturn to here and back levels of [importance]."
— Jon Bellion [106:35]

XI. Inequality, Fatherlessness, and the Superposition Principle

[109:06 – 113:42]

• Fatherlessness as Root Inequality

  • Chris shares statistics: growing up without fathers correlates with worse outcomes for sons and daughters.
  • Jon emphasizes: “You can't throw the baby out with the bathwater in the process of trying to get justice. Don't burn the whole thing down.”

• Holding Two Ideas at Once

  • The world’s struggle to hold in mind that fathers matter, while also championing mothers' independence, echoes the “superposition” principle—two truths can coexist.

XII. Art, Responsibility, and Social Media

[113:47 – 130:41]

• Excavation and Discourse

  • The risk and rewards of excavating difficult subjects—art is better for tackling real issues bravely.
  • Both Jon and Chris lament the culture of caveats and fearing criticism—watering down creativity.

• Navigating the Music Industry & Social Platforms

  • Critique of industry mechanics, modern criticism, TikTok, and “react” culture—hard on artists’ resilience and self-image.
  • “Artists have to become a sensei at just being like the chips are going to fall where they fall. I cannot be affected by that.” (Jon, 126:12)

• On Pop Music & Constraints

  • Refrains from cynicism about "formula"—constraints breed creativity; the juice is in the mundane, ordinary victories, and authentic emotion.

Notable Quote

"Wealth is what you have minus what you want. And by that definition, some billionaires are broke."
— Chris Williamson quoting Morgan Housel [60:26]

XIII. Wisdom, Balance & Finding Peace

[147:37 – END]

• Touring, Money, and Knowing Oneself

  • Jon repeatedly turned down big-money tour offers: “I know myself at this point. I've walked away long enough to be like, finally I'm back and they're accepting me... I made an album about being a dad to three boys. Like, I wasn't trying to apply to everybody.” (Jon, 148:07)
  • Prefers music creation at home to life on the road.

• Untouchable Lessons & The Case for Mundane Joy

  • Chris reads his essay on "unteachable lessons"—some truths must be learned first-hand, not taught.
  • Jon mirrors this with stories and his philosophy of “aggressively walking toward mediocrity”—finding the highest form of happiness in day-to-day ordinariness.

Notable Quote

“The more like insane wisdom I get, the more I'm like, ... I'm starting, I'm dumb. I'll just be over here just like in my dumbness, doing nothing, having a popsicle on a Tuesday with my boys. ... Mundane and dumb has really saved my life.”
— Jon Bellion [160:54]

Memorable Moments & Quotes with Timestamps

• “Being average is the greatest thing in my life.” (Jon, 40:40)
• “You have to be seen. There has to be something that makes it attractive … To say that nothing I do is attractive … then alright, live in your parents’ basement …” (Jon, 20:49)
• “It's a young man's game to be so sure of myself. I was so sure of myself in my early 20s. I knew everything. Crazy.” (Jon, 23:13)
• “Everything after that was extra.” (Chris, 45:17, referencing Peaky Blinders analogy)
• “The only thing you can be is present. So if you’re never present with yourself and you’re never living your life, who cares?” (Jon, 58:44)
• “If I could soothe the guy who has lost sight of the fact that fathers are important... You are not damaged so badly you can't return to your children...” (Jon, 84:06)
• “We trade the validation of people who would love you for who you are for the validation of people who love you for what you do.” (Chris, 55:39)
• “I've noticed that a lot of my actions ... come from. A trillion fans are not worth dad saying, ‘you did a good job.’” (Jon, 98:16)

Key Timestamps for Reference

• Hiatus and comeback story: [00:05 – 04:06]
• Scarcity, pressure, and real connection: [04:06 – 08:22]
• Support and the role of family: [09:09 – 11:01]
• Social media, authenticity, and fear of irrelevance: [11:12 – 14:39]
• Faith, taste, and artistic intent: [14:39 – 19:01]
• Utility, purity, and the game: [19:01 – 23:13]
• Wisdom, uncertainty, and balance: [23:13 – 35:38]
• Normalcy, fatherhood, and fulfillment: [40:38 – 49:03]
• Talent, taste, and success: [54:47 – 76:55]
• Father Figure, legacy, and lineage: [77:07 – 109:06]
• Fatherlessness, inequality, holding dual truths: [109:06 – 113:42]
• Art, criticism, and the era of reactions: [113:47 – 130:41]
• Aggressively choosing the mundane/dumb: [160:54 – END]

Conclusion

Jon Bellion’s journey demonstrates the beauty and importance of stepping away, redefining success, and rediscovering joy in simplicity. The courage to choose ordinariness over the pursuit of attention, fame, or wealth stands as a powerful, countercultural lesson. The conversation is a reminder that sometimes the wisdom we need is hidden in the mundane, and that love, presence, and the role we play in our families are more significant than anything fame or fortune can offer.

Recommended For:
Listeners grappling with career, fame, legacy, or creative fulfillment; those rethinking priorities around parenthood and meaningful success.

Not to be missed:
Jon’s practical wisdom on walking the line between ambition and contentment; Chris’s reflections on unteachable lessons and the value of excavating our own stories for meaning.