← Modern Wisdom
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- [00:00]
A
New album? Yep. But you're not touring right now?
- [00:03]
B
No.
- [00:03]
A
Why?
- [00:05]
B
Right into it. The touring thing is, it's been a bit of a. I toured for a really long time before I walked away from artistry for about six or seven years. I've given this. This spiel a couple of times, but it's just, like, kind of figured out how the ins and outs worked of it. Understood what the toll on my life was, opposed to what I was getting paid for, what I was bringing in, and the business just didn't make sense of it. So I've walked away from that a long time ago and then was able to, this time around, just kind of, like, really do inventory on what's important to me and what I want to do. And we were able to do Forest Hill Stadium, just two nights, back to back, sold out in a couple hours. And because the deal was right and I understand the business more, I can just drive home in my minivan and collect my money and be paid more than I've ever done for touring combined. In two nights.
- [00:53]
A
Two nights made you more than entire tours previously.
- [00:56]
B
Yeah, yeah. Cause the. Cause I don't regret any of it, but it just. It definitely put in perspective. Oh. Oh. This is how they're killing you. This is how they're getting you on the backside. And so. Yeah. Yeah. So we ended up doing just two nights. 26,000 people showed up. It's crazy. Crazy after ever. After six or seven years of being away, it was, like, moving.
- [01:14]
A
Super emotional after such a long hiatus. Were you surprised by the positive response to the album and the Florist Hills shows?
- [01:22]
B
Yeah, I think you build up, like. Like Dre with Detox, or, like, you build up this thing, and then the expectation becomes so high that you'll never be able to. Whatever. So I think I was fortunate enough to just, like, disappear and go away and write for other people for a super long time. And I think that the pressure was off because I think the fans, after a while were just like, I actually just don't think he'll ever put out music again. So then when I was like, I'm putting out music, they didn't have time for there to be this unrealistic expectation of, like, stepbrothers, too. Like, they didn't have to. It didn't have to be dumb and dumbers too. Like, it just was. And on top of that, I just, like, became a completely different person in seven years. Like, you're tapping in with. The sound was different. My approach was different. Everything was different. So I think people were like fascinated and interested and it ended up being a blessing. It was a bigger debut. Top six in the country, top 10 in the world. And I'm not even like fakely like, oh, it's been a shock of a blessing. And this time around, you don't get to do things twice. I almost feel like I'm like Scrooge or something. Like I woke up on Christmas again and I'm like, I get to do this over. So looking out at a stadium, sold out two nights in a row. And I've never done that six years ago. And somehow it got bigger. By the time I came back, I wasn't even in my own self. I was like watching the movie, being like, this is crazy.
- [02:37]
A
How'd that feel? You're so familiar with playing, performing, live stuff.
- [02:41]
B
Yeah.
- [02:41]
A
And then you do it and it's the same. It's the shit that you've done hundreds of times before and it's different at the same time. I'm interested in what that.
- [02:51]
B
I had one of my guys who's played with me since we were in college, my buddy George, he's one of my closest friends and he was on keys behind me and we both, after the show just like held each other. Like, just like you don't at this point, it's like I'm on such borrowed time. I really feel that way. Like, it's like you don't get to walk away and then end up being like nailing a few number ones to like pay for your life and then accept the fact that the artistry's never coming back. And then the label's like, you know what? He's worth more to us giving him what he wants than him just never putting it out. Because I don't think he's bluffing anymore. Like, he will not put out.
- [03:23]
A
So you played a game of chicken.
- [03:25]
B
Basic, oh, six year game of chicken. And then had to go to therapy and, you know, really settled it in my heart. That's like, this is okay. If this, if this is God's plan on my life, I'm never going to do this. And I will serve other people forever in their vision. Like, that's fine. And I get a lot out of that. And I learned a lot about serving people for a long time. Other artists for sure. Like, it definitely gave me a tool belt and my vocal ability grew and stuff. But playing that show, looking out, man, run a clip if you want. Like, you can clip to it. It's just, it was nuts. It was nuts. I'VE played festivals and stuff, but I've never solo sold out Back to back. 13,000 people in a night. It's just crazy. It's crazy with, with zero help from the machine or whatever. It's crazy.
- [04:07]
A
I'm interested in the hiatus and the fact that your fans still showed buy in after you spent years away. Cause I think most people in every industry feel like they always need to be producing content to keep their fans engaged.
- [04:20]
B
Yeah.
- [04:21]
A
You got any idea why people stayed resonant with you despite the fact that you were absent from front facing?
- [04:28]
B
Yeah, it's probably a mixture of. It's probably a mixture of, like, you know what you don't have? It's like you only sell 10t shirts. So then at the time the 10t shirts come out again, you don't know if they're gonna only do 10 again. So you're gonna get the T shirt, you know, you're excited about. I think there's a scarcity thing. And the content stuff, I'm a very like, I. I still am in real time figuring out as we're talking what content even. It's just not for me. It's not for me. It takes, it takes up too much space in my mind. It causes me to not be present with my family. It's. It's, it's odd. And you, it's like, funny. I'm like talking to the guy who's like. And you've had probably so. You've spoken to so many prolific people about it, so your knowledge of wealth is probably way deeper than mine. But I just don't feel like I say it all the time. I'm not selling a chair, I'm selling me. And I go into town square and I get on a pedestal and I say, these are my beliefs about life. This is my art. This is, this is the deepest reflection I could possibly excavate of myself. And someone in the background was, fuck you. I don't like it. It's like they're telling they don't like me. I'm not selling. If you don't like a table I made, someone can say, I don't like the table. And I can somehow, even though the table is a representation of me, I could somehow separate myself to try to draw people to the table, not draw people to me. And the self obsession stuff, it's tough. It's tough with kids, it's tough in a marriage. It's tough. It's tough to constantly be like, I wake up and how will my next decision make Me look and my brand for the next chapter of my life. That's a tough. And that's a tough person to be around. It's tough for people to be around that a lot when every move is this concerted effort to. So, honestly, me walking away from music wasn't that hard because I never enjoyed. And that doesn't. I'm not, like, down to earth, Cool Joe number one. I just. Hey, guy. It's not.
- [06:17]
A
When were you furthest away from that resonance?
- [06:22]
B
What do you mean?
- [06:22]
A
So you mentioned that you're trying to be as transparent, as connected as possible to the work that you do, to the artistic integrity of how you're producing things. Your time with your family. Totally. Time with friends, even, like, album artwork. You're deep on everything, right? Is there a time looking back, where that felt more or most out of alignment, where you're like, ooh, I really veered off a little bit there. And I started playing the game to a level that I could feel.
- [06:54]
B
I think maybe the day. Like, the first day you get the first thing on YouTube, the first. I had 5,000 views on the last one. This one has 10, I think the second, that became the feedback loop of positivity and whatever. You get yourself on a little bit of a train that's. You don't even know you're on the train until the shit crashes. You're like, I didn't even. It's like frog in the boiling water type of situation. I think I was always on a trajectory of. It's the same thing. It's like you'd mention any artist. It was like, I had the most money and I was ready to kill myself. Look at the crazy story of artist X. And everyone's like, wow, what a deep. It's the same archetype over and over. And, oh, I just happen to be blessed enough. Just blessed enough to be like, I don't know how I'm gonna walk away from this. I don't know how this is gonna work out, because I wasn't writing for other people at the time. I'm going back home, and I'm gonna make music in my basement, and I'm just gonna walk away.
- [07:47]
A
Maybe work at McDonald's.
- [07:48]
B
I told my wife that it's crazy. I told my wife that I said yes, and she's laughing at me. She's like, you're forgetting how talented you are. You've been doing this for a long time. But I just walked away. And then, by the grace of God, it was like. It was like, pew. Pew. Hit after hit. But I think that was because I may have shedded. I may have shedded. What do people want? And what's gonna feed the next expectation? It was like, my heart is vibrating with this song, and maybe that's what humans wanted, and that will always cut through. So I try to just stay to that. I try to. I know that sounds super pseudo, like, heavy dudes.
- [08:22]
A
I couldn't. I couldn't resonate more. Like it's instinct is the only thing that's ever led you. Right.
- [08:32]
B
Ever. Ever. Oh, my gosh.
- [08:35]
A
The only thing that's ever led you. Right. Like with the show, you know, the currency that we traffic in is plays, largely.
- [08:43]
B
Right.
- [08:43]
A
Because. Because have you heard me talk about hidden and observable metrics?
- [08:47]
B
Yes.
- [08:47]
A
Yeah. Okay. So observable metric plays Hidden metric. How much it changes a listener's life.
- [08:53]
B
Absolutely.
- [08:53]
A
Right. There's a difference between breadth and depth.
- [08:55]
B
Absolutely.
- [08:57]
A
And unfortunately, depth is just hidden metric. Yeah. When I feel most connected to the work that I do is when I'm following my instincts as sort of plainly as possible.
- [09:09]
B
Yes.
- [09:10]
A
And I think the big hurdle for me and the word that's coming to mind as you're talking about what you did is bravery or courage. That I'm prepared to back myself totally. To stick to my principles.
- [09:23]
B
Totally.
- [09:26]
A
How difficult would it have been to have done that without your wife?
- [09:28]
B
I wouldn't have.
- [09:30]
A
My point being, a lot of people think that they can solopreneur their way through any industry, music, business, whatever you can.
- [09:37]
B
I just don't know how, like, my wife is unbelievable. I really mean that. It's like. It's a grounded perspective. It's an anchor that I would just be. I don't want to know. I don't want to know who I'd be or what it would look like. She's. She, like, just. She, like, almost knows who I am or knew who I was. Even when she married me, she knew the. The person that, like, I was going to become that I don't even know. She almost sees that in a way or. Or something. Yeah, she's. And she. She even. Like, I've known. I mean, I've known her since middle school. I sat behind her in middle school. So she's. What's the best way to put it? If I did wake up tomorrow and was just like, I'm over it. I'm out. She's like, cool. What are we doing today? She's not. It's not. She really does just want to see me happy. So she's she's down for the. All right, you want to write for six years. I was like, all right, you want to spend $2 million, a lot of money on an album and then risk it all yourself and come back after six years and rent the venues yourself and buy the merch yourself. Let's see if it works. She's ready to go. Because, you know, six years ago I'm like, I'm never being. And I know my future and. And then six years later I was like, I have a lot to say. And now they want to give me my shit back. So I feel like morally it's a good time for me to actually operate because I'm not a dancing monkey. I'm just making shit and getting paid properly off of it. So.
- [10:59]
A
Dude, that's so cool. That's so sick.
- [11:01]
B
Yeah, yeah.
- [11:03]
A
You mentioned that you changed a lot in the space of six years.
- [11:06]
B
Oh, man, I had three kids.
- [11:08]
A
That'll change you.
- [11:09]
B
Yeah, yeah.
- [11:12]
A
In fact, actually, before we even get onto that, I need to talk about this fake Instagram account thing.
- [11:17]
B
Yeah.
- [11:18]
A
Seems like the forum ticket sales and most of the album rollout was talked about through a blank Instagram account called user12261990.
- [11:28]
B
My birthday.
- [11:29]
A
Yeah.
- [11:30]
B
Yeah.
- [11:31]
A
What the fuck's going on?
- [11:34]
B
Social media is too much. Is the brand of my name is too much for me to care about. So it was more freeing to just shitpost and just say things in real time and not curate the post and not whatever. And then for some reason, when I removed it from my name and it was just this like, doing this thing, I knew that the real fans would care. And then the harder it is for people to access the real information that's not on the main page, it would turn fans into more news herald type of people. So I just was like, let's do a Windows 98 like, forum. Let's do a fake Instagram. Let's do all this stuff that creates people to have to kind of dig to, then go tell the rest of the world who are passive fans, this is what it's going to be. Because then I hired a label for free, you know, so ended it just took the pressure off because social media is just not for me. I haven't had social media on my phone until I got that fake Instagram. I haven't had it for six years, Not a single thing. So it's like, how am I going to get back into this? Because the second I post from my main account, it'll be 30,000 likes and then my. And then my whole starts to take over again where I'm like waking up being like, what is the thing that's going to remain my relevancy for people to know about my album now, did you do it?
- [12:41]
A
Did you fear irrelevance?
- [12:45]
B
Fear irrelevance. One of my deepest fears creatively is 100% my ideas not being valued to be brought to affect other people. My deepest fear is when you lose your quote unquote relevancy. Whether it be in production or artistry or whatever, there's a viable idea that could change the world, but the world doesn't soak it in because the perspective that you've built of yourself is not as strong as it was years ago. So there is this weird dance you have to do.
- [13:14]
A
Okay, so you see your relevance as a vehicle.
- [13:16]
B
My relevance is only a vehicle for utility. The relevance is a vehicle to present utility to other musicians and to other things. To keep the soup turning of culture. For this to birth cooler shit than when I'm gone, other things will happen.
- [13:30]
A
You're like a vessel.
- [13:32]
B
That's it. Nothing else. It's not. It's all borrowed books in a library. And we're taking and we're reading and we're. There's stardust coming. And it's not like there's days I'm on my high horse. There's days I think I'm the worst in the world. So it's like, you know, you don't want to be like, too over exaggeration, but like, it's all borrowed. It's. Everything is borrowed. It's all just. It's all. Anything that is good in my mind comes from God. So if he shows up to do it through you, it will be good. Good in a way that will last forever because he lasts forever. So it's like, if he wants to show up, then it'll happen. That's. I'm on that time now. I'm on that time. He's gonna. Either she's either gonna show up or he's not. It's like, oh, well, then just sit in your room all day and wait for God to show up. It's like, yes, metaphorically, it gets very. But I. I can only speak from my gut. And I know right now at 34 years old with three kids and whatever, he's either gonna. He's either gonna come in the room and play or he's not. It is what it is.
- [14:40]
A
There's a great quote which is, God doesn't want to do all of the work, some of it is left up to you.
- [14:47]
B
Yeah.
- [14:47]
A
And I think this balance between faith or belief and agency.
- [14:54]
B
Stupid. Age old.
- [14:55]
A
Yeah. Correct. You know, I know that I need to make things happen, but I also need to have faith that I'm going to be pulled toward the right direction. This.
- [15:04]
B
Yeah. I mean, how many times in my life, creatively, I thought what I was making was for this, and it ended up being something completely different that was not. You look back on it, you're like, oh, that ended up being unbelievable for me.
- [15:17]
A
Do any examples come to mind?
- [15:27]
B
Just like right now, this is the number one record at Rhythmic Radio. I've never had a rhythmic number one in my life. And it was a record that I was like, you know what I'm gonna return to, just like, really listening to something that I just listened to as a fan and I want to put it in the car and like, I just like it. Not like, I need hits. I want big songs and this, it's gonna affect the world. I just want to, like, get back to a place where I'm like, my taste is driving all of this. And I'm in the car, excited, playing it back right now. Because there's waves and flows, there's different ways to attack product. And like, my gut was saying, whatever. So I made the song and I was like, oh, this will probably be for me. No one will ever find it. And like, the most unexpected artist in the world was like, I'll take it and I'll take it to radio and it'll. And it ends up going number one. And it was like, I never would have thought this artist would have took it. I never would have thought, you know, so it's like sometimes you make things and as long as the offering is pure and it's like, aligned with your gut, the universe will be like, you think it's going to be here, but I'm going to put it over here one day. And then you look back four years later and you're just like, I would have never predicted what that was like, ever. Like, crazy.
- [16:25]
A
I love the word taste.
- [16:26]
B
Yeah.
- [16:27]
A
I think it's so great. And it's very difficult to define and very difficult to replicate and very difficult to create a blueprint for. I think it's one of the reasons that people don't talk about it because the good definition of taste, being able to distinguish between good and not good. Right. This is good. Why? Don't know is this is not good. Not sure either. Just is bad. Literally. Literally.
- [16:54]
B
That's A forever coagulating, not problem, but a very interesting interaction with product and me. It's always like, product.
- [17:02]
A
What are you referring to?
- [17:03]
B
Just like the thing you made, right? The product. Not like a sellable thing. Just like the finger painting. Put it on the table. On the table. It's a product right there. It's a product of my effort.
- [17:15]
A
Yeah.
- [17:15]
B
No, it's wild. There's always a forever interchanging what's good for the person, what's good for me. Some people would even say, like, the Rick Rubin approach is always just like, it's about if I like it and nothing else matters. But, like, sometimes there's thoughts that creep into my mind where it's like, this is like almost a cooler melody or this is like a really way, like a cooler way of approaching it, in my opinion. But I know bubbling, boiling it down here to allow the person to understand the point of the Paris to then be affected by the hook. It will affect more people constructing it this way. Scorsese makes this and the Avengers is here and like it. Some people wake up in the morning and want Avengers. And some people wake up in the morning and want Scorsese to say that both of those things are. One is better than the other. In my older age, I think that's a young man's game. Young men want to argue about that. I realize as a. As a utility guy, I'm starting to disconnect from, there's a time and a place and there's my artistry and I will take my taste to the umph and I will tell to the world, this is what I think is the coolest shit ever. Put my balls on the table and be like, ain't nobody fucking with this. There's time for that. And then there's other times where I'm like, it's not my. The world doesn't want this from X and I'm working for X right now, so I need to kind of separate myself from like even telling them. I might not even listen to this in my free time. That's not my job. It's not my job. You want to be cool and do your taste all the way and maybe that's fine. But, like, I also enjoy just like sending my kids to college. And there's times where you want to say, if you want. If you want to send your kids to college, sometimes you just, we gotta pay the bills.
- [19:01]
A
You help, dude, I love. We'll get back to talking in just one second. But first, if you have been feeling a bit Sluggish, your testosterone levels might be the problem. They play a huge role in your energy, your focus, and your performance. But most people have no idea where theirs are or what to do if something's off. Which is why I partnered with Function. Because I wanted a smarter and more comprehensive way to, to actually understand what's happening inside of my body. Twice a year they run lab tests that monitor over a hundred biomarkers. They've got a team of expert physicians that analyze the data and give you actionable advice to improve your health and lifespan. And seeing your testosterone levels and tons of other biomarkers charted over the course of a year with actionable insights to actually improve them gives you a clear path to making your life better. Getting your blood work drawn and analyzed like this would usually cost thousands. But with function, it's just $499. And right now you can get $100 off, bringing it down to 399 bucks. Get the exact same blood panels that I get and save that $100 by going to the link in the description below or heading to functionhealth.com modernwisdom that's functionhealth.com modernwisdom I love this point. The idea of like artistic validity or artistic purity or something. Oh my gosh, I mean, how many people. Music is very ripe with this, but maybe even art, modern art, for instance, would be even more so that the more obscure or inaccessible or clunky or difficult it is to get or to understand, the more sophisticated. You see. Look at how refined he is. He's able to consider the complexity and the depth.
- [20:33]
B
Oh my gosh.
- [20:33]
A
And you're like, if it doesn't, if it's not popular, it can't have impact. Like as in if nobody wants it, you can think it's the coolest shit on the planet and maybe it is. But if the world isn't ready for this, yes, it doesn't matter.
- [20:50]
B
You can. I say it all the time. I make the joke in the studio all the time. If you want to be, You have to be seen. So there has to be something that makes it attractive to say that nothing I do is attractive and I don't care if anybody listens to my shit. It's like, all right then live in your parents basement, eat a bowl of cereal every day and be broke as a joke until you're fishing like, okay, I guess. But I'm not saying that that, that validates bullshit. I've seen the bull. I've, I've worked on the bullshit I've worked on the most poignant, Just the.
- [21:25]
A
Gray Sludge Pumped out, which we understand.
- [21:27]
B
That the mom who's taking her kids to soccer on a Tuesday is going to turn on the radio and just listen to that. There's, there's a directive there, there's a lot of money there. But for me to like waste time, to just be like, I am the most pure, it puts too much. It's a young man's game. It's. It's a young man's game to be to me, thank the Lord for my album. Father Figures is my space to go and say, go listen to what I'm saying and put it up against. But. But that's a whole different thing. But far be it for me to not like take a couple of days off to go work with XX to go make something huge that the world, who doesn't really care about. Some people care about boxed wine, some people care about stomping on the grapes. And sometimes boxed wine sells because a 21 year old who's going to a party just needs to grab something at 7:11. And that's viable, that's real, and that's a necessity. And there's utility in that. For me to say that there's not utility in that is so like, like, pew, pew. Like, I understand art. And it's like, what's your utility? If the utility is to serve, then you can't get your way 100% of the time because that's not serving. It's like. And in order to be fulfilled in what you do, there has to be a slice of servitude. Humanity and vanity are very important. You can't just always be vanity because then people will hate you. And you can't just always be humanity because you'll just get used up. There has to be this clunky, disgusting, muddy in between grayness as a human or like as a creator. To help me live with myself, I have to be okay with both sides. I have to, because the second I say I'm never going to be an artist anymore, I look pretty stupid going and being an artist. So it's like I wake up every day being like, if my gut tells me to go in that direction, hopefully it works out. It's a young man's game to be so sure of myself. I was so sure of myself in my early 20s. I knew everything crazy.
- [23:14]
A
As you get more experience, your certainty decreases.
- [23:16]
B
My certainty's out the window.
- [23:20]
A
I don't even know my name anymore.
- [23:22]
B
The only things I'm certain of are the things that I can't pin down. Like, I can't pin down, like, the direction I need to go to day by day. But my gut is leading me in this uncertain thing. But I'm certain that the uncertain is like the adventure. It's the thing that brings the spoils of war.
- [23:42]
A
Okay, so maybe the dynamic that's happening there early on in your career, you have less experience, your taste is less refined, your ability to follow your gut and your instincts aren't there in the same way. What that means is you need to have more of a prefabricated plan. You can't go up and just improv, freestyle, wrap your way through this thing, because what experience are you relying on? So you go in and you're a little bit more contrived, a little bit more curated, more purposeful.
- [24:14]
B
Oh, my gosh.
- [24:15]
A
And then as you get further into your career, into your mid-30s, after having a six year hiatus at the peak of what would have been most people's careers, you come back and you go, well, I can now tap into. I have faith that my programming will carry me through. I told you.
- [24:29]
B
Oh, my gosh.
- [24:30]
A
I told you. This story about last night. Played the town hall in Manhattan last night, and the sound cuts out for five minutes in the middle of the set. I can't keep going with what I was supposed to be talking about. So I just need to find Zach, my warmup. They came and said, hey, I know you've practiced your set 30 times. We need you to extend by 15 minutes because they're doing bag checks at the front. And he's like, can you just create another five songs out of nowhere for us, please, this evening? And he fucking crushed it.
- [24:54]
B
Love it.
- [24:56]
A
That is that faith that my programming will carry me forward. One other example on that, I was doing a big podcast a few years ago, and I decided I wasn't going to eat on the morning and I was going to train hard. And I was like, the dopamine and the fucking adrenaline are going to be going, I'm going to be super dialed. And I felt amazing. And then I went hypoglycemic partway through the episode, and my brain just went completely blank.
- [25:21]
B
Oh, my gosh, make me nervous.
- [25:23]
A
I'm like staring, ba ba ba ba ba ba ba ba ba ba ba ba. Like watching someone talk at me. And immediately my mind goes, you're messing up. You were never supposed to be here. You're not supposed to be here. Everyone's laughing at you. This was your Shot, you're going to blow it. And he's talking at me, chatting away. When I watch the episode back, I'm having a fully cogent conversation about the power of Jake Paul's right hand. I'm like, yeah, well, the interesting thing is Jake Paul's knocked out every opponent that he's faced. And I'm like, ba ba, ba, ba, ba ba. You were never supposed to be here. You're not supposed to be here. And I'm like, oh, that's programming. Yes. That's like a thousand hours plus 2000 hours of conversations over the last eight years just like pulling you through. Yes, yes. So that's why you're allowed to use experience and taste and instinct to deeper into your career and you can't use it.
- [26:10]
B
Yes. I say it all the time. It's like Rihanna had to make Shut up and Drive to get to like, just stay like, like Bruno had to make the lazy song to get to like Uptown Funk. It's almost like you have to. And you also have to be okay with the growth of what it is. Like you got to just like create, put it out and then there's nothing you could do about your growth. If you want to get to somewhere, you're going to have to start somewhere. So it's going to be messy, it's going to be sloppy and it's not like you said, it's going to be contrived and it's going to be whatever. Like, if you listen to even like any song, like Don't Shoot the Boy down on my album now or six years ago, what someone's favorite song might have been. It's two totally different worlds. Totally different worlds. So it's like, like even like you said, the autopilot thing or just like your programming of what we. We only rehearsed for four days for fort sills because.
- [26:55]
A
You're kidding.
- [26:56]
B
I used to rehearse for months, but there was. We did a middle section.
- [26:59]
A
People on stage, you improv the whole thing. You're conducting everything that. All right, look, I get that you've got lots of experience. Four days feels like a high wire act. Okay. Fucking looking at your manager through the window and he's like, fucking.
- [27:14]
B
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. It was four days of, of really intense rehearsal. I mean, they were like in the 10 hour range. But. But you're right though. It's like, you understand this will probably hit. This will work. I can pack that in. I'll remember to bring that part out. And. And I wasn't remembering A single lyric the first two days. But if that would have been six years ago, I would have been like, book another month and we're going to get in another 12 hours a day. And I can never forget while I'm rehearsing lyric, I was like, you know, it's going to kick in when the adrenaline's there. And it did. Didn't need the. The lyrics on the sheet and shit. I was just like, all right, it worked. And then another thing hit me too, is that I don't really. I don't really need to keep touring. So if this fails and crashes miserably, like, this is the one show I was going to do anyway. So I'll freestyle the whole middle of the show, will pick five songs. I'll, like, build the shit in front of everybody, because that's kind of what I do in the studio. And if it fails miserably, it's not like it's like, I'm not going to pay the barrels to, like, finish my tour. It's just like, that didn't work, but it felt like it worked. So when I walked up there, I.
- [28:15]
A
Was just up there.
- [28:17]
B
So when I. So when we ended up freestyling it, it was programming. It was for sure. Like, I also have a bit of. Just like, I don't really have much to lose. This, you know, I've walked away from it. I walked away from it for so long and accepted it and, like, put it in a coffin and sent it down the river and, like, watched it go away only for, like, God, to, like, lift it up and present it at my front door when I woke up one morning. But, like, it was so gone that now I'm kind of like, I could do that. So it is actually. Which brings me to, like, I'm. I. Very, very vulnerably speaking. It's just like, this stuff is very. This is point that I just kept thinking about days before speaking to you is that I can't express what it's like to. To be like. It's. It's hard for me to put a thought process on. Like, if you really love your life, then just, like, love your life. You don't need to inform people and let people know how great your life is. So going on a podcast, talking about how much I don't care seems counterintuitive, which then makes me not want to even just, like, leave my house and come and talk to you about it, because I don't know how to express the. Like, I'm on a podcast with one of the greatest podcasters in the world, and this is like, one of the biggest platforms, and I'm talking about how much I don't give a fuck. I don't give a fuck. But there is a piece of me that I do, in my deepest morals, find important, and I should shoot those out into the world. But it's also a larger risk that I don't really care to take. Like. Like, if I really. If we talked about how me and how you speak with your best friend after a couple of drinks, like, back home or whatever, which is. Which is like everybody else, the people you trust the most, you get down to what you really believe. So there's a piece of me that doesn't want to just give fluff, but I also don't want to, like, I ain't, like, I. I don't. I'm not. I don't want to be like this. Like, if you want to, like, fight the music industry and. But I have a bunch of knowledge that I think can help a lot of people. So I'm constantly struggling. Like, I should say something and go on a podcast and have a conversation about balance while playing the game that's like, in the machine, that's plastic.
- [30:23]
A
Yeah.
- [30:24]
B
I don't even know how that popped out of my cerebral while we were talking. I don't even know if that made sense.
- [30:27]
A
Why did you. Why did you decide to. Come on.
- [30:33]
B
I forgot I said yes a really long time ago.
- [30:36]
A
Let's go, baby.
- [30:37]
B
And then.
- [30:37]
A
Louis.
- [30:38]
B
Louis. My day to day was like, they flew out. Dude, you're doing that tomorrow. And all jokes aside, I find you, your cause to be very. I. I find it at base root to be noble. It's not salacious. It's not something that is like entertainment. It's. It's a meal. And I can get down with that. Like, on a moral, deeper level, I can have a conversation with somebody that I've learned a lot from. And the guests that you've had on, like, it's helped my individual life, my silent life at home with my family. So it's like, I'll. I'm down.
- [31:13]
A
Well, I appreciate that. Yeah, thank you. I also appreciate your booking agent or whoever just sliding it into the calendar and being like, Friday, what am I doing today?
- [31:25]
B
And. And honestly, truthfully, I'm a really. I'm a really big fan of you as what you've decided to put out into the world. I respect that.
- [31:33]
A
Thank you deeply on a really deep level. So thank you. Yeah, that means a lot. I taste is absent even more in my industry than in yours. And I'm trying my best to hold onto that wherever I can and to refine that.
- [31:52]
B
What's the temptation for a guy at your level, top level of conversation having podcasting content? What is the daily temptation of the I know I could blow the door open on da da da da. What is your content?
- [32:06]
A
Well, first one would be most almost all platforms, big, big, big platforms with like hardcore tribal audiences are built together over the mutual hatred of an out group, not the mutual love of an in group.
- [32:18]
B
Wow.
- [32:19]
A
This is how all cults, how all movements are built.
- [32:22]
B
Right.
- [32:22]
A
By identifying the other. If you look at the way that American elections have been won, the last election where the party that was voted in was voted for love of party, not hatred of the other was 2012. Since then most people have protest, voted against. I am not that. Not I am this. Wow. And that's how. So a great way to judge whether or not the content creator that you listen to is playing the game correctly or playing the game in an honest way. Is the audience bound together over the mutual belief of something as opposed to the mutual disbelief of something else.
- [33:01]
B
Wow.
- [33:02]
A
And I've never played that game. I don't start beef with people online. Even if I get like poked at a little bit here and there. I genuinely try and platform people who I can go from fucking John Belly and Matthew McConaughey to like some 22 year old YouTuber from London who I found a one video essay of and I fucking love. And I'm like, you're coming to Austin and I'm going to speak to you on the podcast and I'm just going to give you a shot.
- [33:29]
B
Yep.
- [33:30]
A
Like who the fuck am I to say I'm going to give you a shot, but the entire industry is you holding onto the coattails of people bigger than you. And then, you know, three and a bit years ago Rogan puts me on when just a DM, I've got 250,000 subs, it's nothing. And he brings me on and gives me a shot. And it went really well and that was great. Wow. And being the like the opportunity to.
- [33:51]
B
Go from.
- [33:53]
A
You like lying in the hammock everybody else has created for you to turning the hammock into a trampoline that other people can bounce off.
- [34:01]
B
Yes.
- [34:01]
A
Is really fucking cool. Two of the things I don't want to forget that came to mind while you were talking. The first one was you said that you stepped away for six years. Have you ever heard McConaughey. Talk about when he stopped doing rom coms, bro. So he's like the rom com king. And what I didn't realize was rom coms was super easy to make super cheap, would generate at the box office, get replayed at Valentine's Day, replayed at Christmas. Like, it's just. It was a cash cow. He was the rom com king, but he realized that it was a little gray, sludgy. He was becoming formulaic. He was churning these things out and he didn't want to do it. He stepped away. Yeah. And he stepped away, I think for 18 months or two years at like the peak of his career. Real similar to your story. They came and they offered him 5 million for the next role and he said no. Then they said seven and he said no. Then they said 10 and he said no. Then they Said 14 and he said no. And they were like, well, what's he got going on? In order to say no to $14 million for this role, which is, you know, easy in, easy out, whatever, however many weeks of work this is, he's got something really serious that's happening. And that was the moment that his.
- [35:08]
B
Catalyst that got him.
- [35:09]
A
Exactly.
- [35:10]
B
See, it's funny, at my age, I don't view him as the rom com guy. I knew him as well now.
- [35:15]
A
But the only reason he was able to get there was because he dispensed with that outfit. Right.
- [35:19]
B
Amazing. Second thing, it's amazing.
- [35:22]
A
You know those balance board things? It's like a skateboard deck on a little sort of cylinder. I always think about this. So you were talking about the fact that you have to play the game, but know that it's not about the game. And sometimes you are playing it more and other times you are playing it less.
- [35:38]
B
Absolutely.
- [35:39]
A
When you think about standing on one of those balance boards, at no point are you actually in balance. You're always making these little micro adjustments.
- [35:48]
B
Yes. Forever coagulating. Yes.
- [35:49]
A
And then every so often you go, whoa, holy fuck. Like, we really, like nearly kissed the ground there on that one. And then.
- [35:56]
B
Totally, Totally.
- [35:57]
A
And I love that idea. And I think that, that what people want is to think, if I can get myself to the perfect level of equilibrium, I'll never have to readjust again.
- [36:08]
B
It just doesn't exist.
- [36:09]
A
Readjusting is the game.
- [36:11]
B
That is it. Then you start to realize that leaning left or right is not even the thing. It's like you could just do your best to do ab workouts to stay on. It's like. It's like you. I Know this thing is going to go left and right and I have to be prepared for it to go left and right. So I got to make sure my core is like very, very solid. And then, and then your whole entire holistic perspective changes to make sure your core is right to do the balance. Because the balance is all that's happening. Like you said, you're never going to hit the perfect thing where you go, I'm perfectly balanced, no problems for the rest of life. Then your mind starts to think you're like, oh, it's not perfect artistry. It's not total commercialism. It's the reflection of this balance thing that is not black, it's not white. It's just a lot of nuance. Some things there's no nuance at all. But I'm blown away in my older age how deeply nuanced it all is, every bit of it. It's tough to even have. It's tough to even like confidently move forward. The only thing I'm confident in is the music because I like it, my own music. Everything else is very, very tough for me. Even people say, like, what advice do you have for writers? I'm like, I don't even know what I did. I really don't. I had a weird, unwavering belief in myself. That's super important. But like, I know there's people out there that are wickedly talented and just wicked. It just, the chips just don't fall. I don't know how to like combat that. I don't. It's, it's, it's very interesting.
- [37:37]
A
We'll get back to talking in just a minute. But first, some things are built for summer. Sunburns, hot girl walks, your ex posting their Euro road trip. And now lemonade and salt element just dropped their brand new lemonade salt flavor. And it's everything that you want on a hot day. Tart, salty and stupidly refreshing. It's like a grown up lemonade stand in a stick with actual function behind the flavor. Because let's be real, if you're sweating through workouts, sauna sessions, or just walking to your car in July, then you are losing more than just water. Element replaces the electrolytes that your body actually needs. Sodium, potassium and magnesium. With no sugar, no junk and no nonsense. I've been drinking it every single day for years. And in the Texas heat, this lemonade flavor in a cold glass of water is unbelievably good. Best of all, they've got a no questions asked refund policy with an unlimited Duration for so you can buy it and try it for as long as you want. And if you don't like it for any reason, they'll give you your money back and you don't even need to return the box. That's how confident they are that you'll love it. Plus, they offer free shipping in the US Right now. You can get a free sample pack of Element's most popular flavors with your first purchase by going to the link in the description below or heading to drinklmnt.com modernwisdom that's drinklmnt.com ModernWisdom I've heard you say the most talented people in the world sometimes don't make the best shit to listen to.
- [38:55]
B
Yeah. Why for sure.
- [38:56]
A
What gets in the way? You would assume.
- [38:58]
B
So funny the way my mind works. I'm like, I'm already editing that. Like, I'm like, well, well, what would you say? In my opinion? Yeah, it's like, I think I've been blessed with an understanding that when I'm listening to something, I think in my head, humans will feel good because of this. People will enjoy this thing that hits this thing, and this will work and this will be pleasing to people. That's a. Is a thing. When I'm creating, I want this to feel pleasing to you. I want you to be affected by this. I want you to be. Have goosebumps and to be affected, not just look at how talented I am. I know motherfuckers who can sing. The phone book doesn't mean when they play me the MP3 in the car that I'm like, I'm gonna listen to that song again. It's like, you're singing really great, but I just. There's nothing about it that makes me. And I don't know what that that about it is, which is my obsession. I love that I live in the about it. I'm not the greatest singer, I'm not the greatest rapper, I'm not the greatest producer. I'm not the greatest piano player, chord guy, harmony guy. But I just am like, ooh, I think people will like that. And I can now find a way to get. I know who to call to get it to the thing that I think people will like. And that's worked for me. It's worked for me. I don't know. People might say I'm talented, but, like, I also just really, really, really, really deeply to the point of tears. Love what I do every day. I love it. I love it, I love it, I love it. Everything else Is like a day at work for me to go in there. Seven hours, come in at 11, leave at 7. I get dinner at my house. I play with my boys. I put them to bed and wake up and do the same thing every day. And life just gets better and better and better and better and better because I'm doing the same thing I did when I was 15.
- [40:39]
A
I'm so happy for you, man.
- [40:40]
B
Thank you.
- [40:40]
A
Thank you.
- [40:41]
B
And it's hard not to just say that. And I know that might make people reflect on their own thing and not be happy about the statement, but why am I not touring? Or why am I even. I swore I wasn't going to get emotional, but it's like I just love. I love my life to live. I love my life. I love it, I love it. It's mind blowing. I get in a minivan and drive home from a stadium and wake up and clean diapers the next day. I got it all. I got it all. Because my life, I might not have got the diapers, might not have got the sleepless nights. I might not have got the. It's just that the world tells you is not what chase after is the shit that I almost missed. It's like there's a renaissance coming of people. And it's. The renaissance is realizing that the roof over your head, the plumbing job and the cutting the grass is the good shit. We've taken it to the extreme. Our society's taken it all the way. We got it all. We figured it out. We're the most connected we've ever been, got the most money we've ever had. I think everyone start, myself included. It took me six years to be like, I almost lost. I almost chased this thing. And then for six years, I was around a bunch of guys who had all the stuff I thought I needed. No, it's the dirt, it's the muck. It's the mistakes. It's the thing that's the good shit. But we spend so much time making sure no one ever. No one ever sees us in a light that might seem average. Being average is the greatest thing in my life. It's the greatest thing in my life. Sometimes I go to the shoe store and people know who I am. And then other times, I'll go five days without anybody even knowing who the fuck I am. I take my kids to sports class and nobody bothers me. It's like celebrity. Miss me with that. I've never had a conversation with a famous motherfucker. I never had a long two, three, four, Hour conversation in the studio with a famous motherfucker that's been like, I love it. It was the best decision I ever made in my life, being famous. God came out the sky and was like, you had the money. Like, you're famous, but you don't have to be famous. I'm taking that all day long. Fame makes no sense to me. And I think the general consciousness of the population is waking up to that. Like, the idea of celebrities, like, everybody's, like, side eyeing these guys, like, you're not perfect. Because I'm not perfect. It's like, what are we doing here? Like, what are we talking about? I don't know how I just went on that tangent. I apologize. I don't. I didn't mean to. Yeah, you guys don't have to make me look like I'm making sense. Thumbs up. Yeah. Yeah. That was the main thing, guys. Like, even if I can get on this podcast today and just be like. Like, my coffee in the morning and the grass on my feet in a roof over my head making music, it's like, you will never. You'll never stop me. You'll never stop me. I love what I'm doing so much. You will never. I'll never stop. I'll be 90 years old, just doing the same thing every single day because it gets better and better and better, and the relationship changes with it. And to be able to get paid like that where I don't have to. I could play one show at Forest Hills, and then people show up.
- [44:04]
A
I.
- [44:04]
B
Think, because I walked away and let go of it. When it came back, I was like, I didn't even know I had this when I had it six years ago. And now coming back to it, it doesn't even define me, but it's just like this funny. Like, I'm like the Monopoly guy with a mustache. Like, it's all fake money. I'm rolling dice. I'm like, if I lose money on fucking Boardwalk at this. This.
- [44:24]
A
This.
- [44:25]
B
Yeah. Like, it's just. Life is good, man.
- [44:28]
A
Life is.
- [44:29]
B
Life is good.
- [44:31]
A
Have you ever seen Peaky Blinders?
- [44:32]
B
No.
- [44:33]
A
Okay, so it's a show about a gang from Birmingham in the 1920s.
- [44:38]
B
Is.
- [44:39]
A
And in it, it's a group of brothers. They were in first World War. Two of the brothers were in the first World War, and they went to the Battle of the Somme, and they were tunnel diggers. Real dangerous, high, like, mortality rate. And Tommy and Arthur, the two older brothers, they have this line where they say they basically thought that they were going to Die at the Battle of the Somme. But they didn't. And they refer to it as everything after that was extra. Yeah. And it feels to me like you died during that, that time.
- [45:15]
B
Yeah.
- [45:15]
A
And you're like, everything after that was extra.
- [45:18]
B
Absolutely. I look at, in, in therapy, I did an exercise where I looked at me on a boat and thanked him. Thank you for getting me this far, but I have to go on without you. You helped me survive. All your tendencies and all of your things, they helped you get to this place because it was survival. But I can't keep you with me anymore. And I got to say goodbye to you and I got to move on. And I did it. It's just the boat went away. And once the boat went away, you look at things in a much different. It's just much different. It's just much different. It almost comes to you when you let it. Ugh. I hate being the, like, guru guy. You don't? I don't. I just do. I'm just not chasing much now. I just know that if I fish and make father figure, some artist out there, it's going to be a commercial for myself and some artists going to hear it and then ask me to go work with them. I just, I just know that, I know that in my two year plan of spending all this money or whatever, it's like when you fish, you just, you fish. You can't get in the water with goggles and like, start swimming after the fish. Most motherfuckers want to just like. I really, in my early 20s, I was like in the Speedo with the goggles, in the scuba, trying to, trying to get a bass. I'm like. And then someone's on the dock, like, young man, young man, just grab the pole and just hang out. Well, I can't see the fish. And what if they don't show up? They might not, but you're not going to catch shit from forcing the universe. I don't know. I don't know. It's so countercultural because most people will.
- [46:44]
A
Not, it's not wake up and force the universe. No, no, no, no. You're, dude, you should not be doubting anything that you're saying. I, I thank you.
- [46:51]
B
Coming from. You get, a lot of, you get so many rounded, polished perspectives of, like, good information. So I appreciate that.
- [46:57]
A
I believe you're, you're tapped in. There's two types of people in the world. There's people that are tapped in and people that aren't. And when you think about that, you know when you're talking about it and you're saying, like, you can't stop me, you're not going to stop me. I'm just doing what I want to do. You know that feeling that you get, that's like a birdcage opening in your chest? Yes. That. Yeah. Like that's what people should be chasing.
- [47:18]
B
That. That is honest to the Lord. I think a lot of successful peoples, myself included, I swear to you that that is the superpower of whether it's production or podcasting or whatever, is accessing the thing. Because once the thing is seen by people, they say, that's the thing that I have hid for. Like, there's a freedom in the birdcage opening up. And if you can access the birdcage opening up, I just feel like by the grace of God, I've been able to open my birdcage on record so many times that I've learned to be okay with the fact that I'm emotional, that I'm okay with the fact that, like, things can wreck my day. And seeing one thing on social media will fuck me up so bad that I have to get off of it for six years. I'm okay with those things because I just think my birdcage is. I'm sensitive. There you go. All that talking to say, no, no.
- [48:11]
A
Dude, I. I really, really appreciate you saying that. I think sensitivity is your strength with regards to this. Oh, my gosh, I did. I've been wearing this. I guess the audience might not have noticed, but I've been wearing this little piece of red for about six weeks now. And it's got the letters ILM on the back and it's got an infinity symbol on there. I went and did a retreat in sonoma county about six weeks ago, two months ago. It was 12 hours a day from 9am till 9pm wow. Of very deep, emotional, work intensive, incredibly sober, non psychedelic stuff. And the ILM on this stands for I love myself. And it was the thing that you wanted to take away, but in it, what you were talking about, that I need to send that version of me off to see.
- [49:03]
B
Yeah.
- [49:04]
A
So many of the fears and doubts and patterns, the patterns that people have, especially the ones that you don't like, they're there to protect you. They're there to try and keep you safe, to get you validation from the world. And even my work.
- [49:21]
B
My work when I was 14 years old was every night I was lost in that screen, creating and living in a world that was not reality. It's what helped me grow As a man, it's what helped me stay alive. Like, music is literally something that I held onto like a life raft. And it was so embedded in my. But then at what point when you're a grown man, you say, is this escapism? Is it easier for me to be listened to in the studio all day long than go home and actually have an interactive marriage where my opinion doesn't actually end all. Be all of everything. There's a. It's a very, very, very, very interesting thing. Like you said, saying goodbye to that person is saying, like, I know I was put on this planet, and I've been given gifts to make music. I'm pretty sure of it at this point. But I always have to take inventory on whether it's escapism or not. Sometimes it's healthy to escape as men. I think there is a. Something very valid on a man who goes fishing on a Saturday. There's something very valid about your own time, your solace, your whatever. But you always have to take inventory on. It's like, dude, are you fishing on a Saturday? Or are you not able to stomach the idea of the normalcy of your life? Which is always. That's another thing I have to take inventory on with my job.
- [50:34]
A
Balance being. Yeah, yeah, you're on that balance board, dude.
- [50:37]
B
Totally, Totally. I have to always take inventory of saying, let me. Let me see what this feels like to me. Is this. Oh, a post just went viral about me doing something that makes me look talented. How am I. Hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey.
- [50:50]
A
Calm down, bud.
- [50:51]
B
You get, hey. And it's a lot of that. But I've noticed that that's been the biggest blessing in my life. Some people will be like, just ripped the door open, man. Like, you just did. 26,000 people at Forest Hills. We're going on the wrong. And when I drove home, my wife was being Michelle Obama all day. She was tired of shit. She was taking care of the kids all day long. There was a playground in the back. So about the time that the show was over, my son was like, dad, I didn't. My son was like, the other day, he sits me down. Can I talk to you? I'm like, yeah. He's like, I just. I didn't like your show. I was like, by the way, the whole thing sold out. The whole thing, top to bottom. He's like, yeah. And he's dead pan. I'm like, oh, I thought he was gonna be joking. So, like, my ego. He's four. My ego Is like, oh, like, everyone told me I killed it. That thing was sold up. I said, buddy, why didn't you like the show? He goes, you know, you sang the first song, then you just kept singing and singing and singing. And I was just like, when's he gonna be done singing? He's like, I wanted to go play with you in the playground at the back of this thing. So it, like, puts the whole. Even that my son trusts me enough to tell me that. I'm like, oh, my gosh, thank God. Thank God. The trip back in the minivan that. Cause we have too many kids now. We used to have a Navigator and a Ranger over. And now I'm ripping the Kia Carnival. Wonderful product, by the way. I'm driving home in the Kia. She forgot to get gas. I'm in the middle of bumblefuck Brooklyn, trying to get gas after. I'm like, yo, I'm rich.
- [52:21]
A
I don't need this shit.
- [52:22]
B
But then it like. It just was like, no, this is the. This is the good. This is the shit. It's this. I'm annoyed. I'm tired. My wife's over it. Da, da, da. But you would look at me at the end of that show, that day at the after party of everybody coming up to me, my daughter needs this, and my cousin and listen to my demo, and you're the man. That was the best show I ever seen. They don't recognize that there's this other thing. I'm just like, thank God I didn't spend my whole life pretending that that other thing just never never existed. Because I'm way more in that other thing than I am in stuff like this.
- [52:55]
A
Not seeing the value in it.
- [52:57]
B
Oh, my God. Oh, my gosh. It's so scary, dude. And then you build a kingdom that's predicated on the idea that you never have sludge or you never have mundane shit. Then you're fucking toast. You're trapped.
- [53:10]
A
It's not a kingdom, It's a prison, bruh.
- [53:13]
B
The amount of records I've written for people that by the end, I've walked away and been like, I'm all the way good on everything this dude has ever. By the way, my heart breaks for them. That doesn't mean that. Hey, I'm like I said, I ain't Johnny Noble. I'm not, like, so much better than them. I. I get on my knees. I get on my knees in my closet, and I say, thank you. You didn't give me everything I ever wanted. Oh, my gosh. Oh, my Gosh, if I got everything I ever wanted at 20, I might not be alive. And then you. And then you bring it back tenfold for me to look at it like, I'm not even. This isn't even. I'm not even in this. Tomorrow I will wake up, and I will be with my children, and I will be in the studio making something, maybe for me or something for somebody else, doing the same shit I did every single day. It's not this. The fourth of July. Every day ain't the move, man. The Fourth of July is great because it happens once a year. If Monday through Monday, it's fireworks, alcohol, and craziness. But our job, I don't know, society, it's just very much like, if it ain't 4th of July every day, then you are not accomplishing what you want. And then the motherfucker who's got to sit in traffic on Tuesday is like, my life sucks. It's like, dude, no, it doesn't. No, it doesn't. Because we're all living the same fears, the same validation, the same way you want to be looked at. When you walk in a room and you wonder what other people think about you, we just spend a lot of time making sure that that's not obvious. But the more time you get away from the machine, you're like, I'm in my chubby phase. I'm a little bit of a dad. I'm making music as a dad.
- [54:48]
A
Like, thank God dad music.
- [54:51]
B
Because that's what the fuck I am. If I spent half my life trying to pretend like I'm not. You get a lot of these artists I work with. I'm like, man, you ain't. Why you want to say that? That's not your reality.
- [55:01]
A
Yeah, you've got kids at home, but you're still playing the bowler up front.
- [55:04]
B
Me? What do the kids think? You know a lot about a man, about what his kids think about him. I don't need to know what your fans think about you. I don't even. I don't even know my fans.
- [55:12]
A
My present is dad and mom at home.
- [55:14]
B
How you got. Never speak to. To someone who adores somebody from a distance on. On a character judgment that you can make about them. You will know the fruit if you know the person. That's the only thing you can count on. So for, like, you want to work your whole life for a bunch of people that don't know you to think that you're a good guy. And then when you go home, everyone's like, this Guy. That's what. That's what most of the albums about.
- [55:40]
A
You've traded the validation of the people who would love you for who you are for the validation of people who love you for what you do.
- [55:50]
B
It's like. And then your identity becomes what you do. So if you can't do what you do, your whole life is just shattered.
- [55:55]
A
It's taken away from you. So now you're locked into the. And that's how you get locked into the prison, bro.
- [56:00]
B
I've noticed that in. In recently 10 years of some. Some kind. It was almost like. Like, even when I looked at my dad, my dad's job, didn't it. He wasn't trying to get like his whole community from his job and his whole purpose from his job. It was almost like you made money to then, like, go to church and like, have another life of. I don't really know what I'm saying. It's probably not going anywhere. But like, what I'm trying to say is like, the job is just the job. It's. It's not the definition of what you are. And slowly but surely, given our, like, whole lives being commercials, which is what social media is, you have to turn your job into your. And I've like law. Like, I'm just like, man, that's like, this is just something I get to do. It's not me. It's. It's a. It's a facet within the other things that feed me in my community. Spending time with my wife, going on vacations with my friends, spending time with my family, eating a good meal with somebody. This is little things. This is.
- [56:58]
A
Well, imagine if you had an investment portfolio and 95% of your investments were in a single stock.
- [57:05]
B
Insane.
- [57:06]
A
You would be very, very careful and very, very anxious about the progress of that stock.
- [57:11]
B
Yeah.
- [57:11]
A
What you have is a distributed portfolio of investments.
- [57:14]
B
Oh my gosh. Amen. And it's like I even think sometimes too. It's just like this, probably. And again, I'm just speaking from. I'm here and it's like someone wants to hear me talk. I guess it's like I might as well throw whatever out there. It's like I've also noticed just like living under my means and not living to the thing that I am has made me an Also wildly happy beyond most. Once me and my wife stopped with the house additions and the hot tub and the pool and the yada yada.
- [57:39]
A
Yada pivoted to the Kia. Would you say a hard pivot to the Kia, bro?
- [57:43]
B
I'm in the Kia and they got these little nature sounds that you can put on in the car and shit. I'm like, I like this just as much as my $175,000 Tesla that I got neck pain from ripping on the highway on. I'm like, oh, thank God I got the Kia. So then it really started opening up in my life to be like, what if I just live completely under my means? I'm rich forever. If I live like a motherfucker who makes the type of money that I make, I'm going to have to be on the wheel forever to keep that moving. But if I just make the house smaller and accomplish huge things and just don't make a big deal out of the accomplishments and just keep it kind of low key and then just tuck it away somewhere that if anybody ever needs it, it's there. But I'm here on the grass with my ass on the grass with the kids just hanging out and doing the thing that is like, bring you to tears levels of like, thank God I did not keep chasing whatever because the money ended up coming and it ended up working out and I got enough of it to go around, so I might. It's so weird. It's like, like frogging hot water. I. I would have been the frog in hot water if I didn't find out how shitty my touring contract was and. And artist contract was for sure.
- [58:42]
A
What an odd gift, bro.
- [58:44]
B
I'd be looking at people sometimes and I'm just like, man, says the guy with a bunch of money, that money's not important. I know, I know, I know. We've been down that road. I understand. But it's like, I'm telling you, man, it doesn't. The money, Me and you are still here. No matter what's in your bank account and what's in my bank account, because the only thing you can be is present. So if you're never present with yourself and you're never living your life, what the f. Who cares? Motherfuckers out there in Thailand just on a boat, happy as a motherfucker, and they're not. The hot tub broke.
- [59:31]
A
It's like, dude, we went for breakfast yesterday at Red Diner, downtown Manhattan on like 43rd street or some bullshit. We sat in there and our server came over, Mexican lady, and I can't remember what happened. She asked some sort of question. She said, I just finished a night shift. It was 11am and she started at midnight in her other job, and she's at the diner at 11am and I'm sat next to Zach, who's warming up for me on tour. And immediately we start going, like, ironically, going, wah. The ambient water in the dressing room was supposed to be chilled. Waa. I'm not happy about the particular fruit and veg platter that we were supposed to get backstage.
- [60:13]
B
Waa.
- [60:14]
A
The Cat 5 cables that we were supposed to have triggered. And it meant that I had to do an acoustic performance for five minutes on stage.
- [60:21]
B
I'm like, yeah, it really puts it in.
- [60:24]
A
Are you fucking high?
- [60:25]
B
Yeah, I did, dude.
- [60:27]
A
Wealth is what you have minus what you want. And by that definition, some billionaires are broke. Wow.
- [60:36]
B
Wow. Yeah, I'm taking that one, tucking that one in the back pocket.
- [60:40]
A
It's Morgan Housel he's fucking phenomenal. Wealth is what you have minus what you want. And by that definition, some billionaires are broke.
- [60:49]
B
But it's crazy because the things that you need, that you find out that you need don't bring immediate gratification. And sometimes they're not pleasurable, and sometimes you're not even happy, which is diaper changing. It's the unhappiness. Yeah. I don't know, man. It's like you have kids and then you learn to die. And when you learn to die, you actually get your life in your death. The giving up of oneself by saying, my dreams, my millions, my potential, my mvp, my Olympics are dead because I brought a life into the world, and I am everything in my. My body will make sure that this child is okay. And if that means me reducing myself to make this child, what to give this child even maybe what I didn't have. When it's not about you, it's so much more enjoyable if everything is about you. Constantly. And I don't want to get too deep into just like, what I think's wrong in society. Like, I ain't Jordan Peterson. I'm not, like, educated. But there seems to. There seems to be this. It's all about you and chase what you want. And if you don't get what you want, your life is a failure. But I found so much freedom in it. Not in me. Just not. We don't have to go down that road with me. If you want to go to your friend's house, if you guys have to go to school today, I will wake up early, despite being in the studio late, and I will take you, and I'll feel like shit, but I'm going to take you to the studio, and it's probably going to fuck my day up in the studio. But I'm going to make sure you get to school. Kids shift your perspective on a lot. And I mean it's so deeply to the point where I say people who don't have kids, that's another thing. I look at my children and I say, thank God I had you to refine me into someone I didn't even know I had the potential of being or grabbing a level of patience or exposing how impatient I actually am. I thought I was this like patient, level headed guy until I had kids.
- [62:43]
A
Oh yeah, very patient. When you only have to look after yourself. Oh yeah, your patience is really being tested.
- [62:50]
B
Like, you know, like I wake up with the kids, I don't have time to work out. I, I should make time to work out. So all I gotta do is get up at 4:30 because so and so on Instagram told me like I'm almost, I almost feel myself becoming softer around the edges because my concern is the life of somebody else. So kind of me is to some degree, don't get me wrong, I'm in a studio seven hours a day. I live a great life. You know what? No, I'm not going to, what's the word? Validate everything that I'm saying or there's a different word that my therapist tells me like not to use. I constantly try to like justify. And I'm not saying yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
- [63:26]
A
Well just on that, you have done it a few times today and I think it speaks to the fact that you don't want to come across as preachy and the fact that you're saying, hey, look, I'm an idiot too. But the disclaimer, the reason the I have the compulsion to do that as well, part of it's a protection mechanism because you don't want to be called out by somebody for saying this guy doesn't know what he's talking about and he's still proselytizing. Totally. That being said, not saying a thing that you believe because you're worried about the criticism of people who are going to hear it and misunderstand it. You really should not be worried about the criticisms of people who don't understand what you're trying to do.
- [64:08]
B
Absolutely.
- [64:09]
A
If people misunderstand you, that's a them problem, not a you problem. And it's like something to try and overcome that is really tough. That being said, in the music studio, we spent the first half of this conversation talking about taste and about how like I just know that it's good but you're in an alien environment here and you're thinking, well, I know that this is good.
- [64:29]
B
Yep.
- [64:30]
A
But I'm not sure whether or not I'm allowed to think it's good. Yes. So this is you at the beginning of the music career going, like, what if I can prescribe and I'll hedge and caveat and I'll litigate my way through this thing. And so it's just a new. And if you put me in. If you put me in the music studio, you're like, I have a fuck. Maybe we need to. Can we, like, roll that off on the kick?
- [64:49]
B
I'm not saying I'm a guitar player, but maybe you can try.
- [64:53]
A
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah.
- [64:56]
B
That's amazing. Yeah, that's amazing. Yeah, it's for people. Even. This a usual comment. My whole career has always been people thinking I'm on drugs. When I'm in the studio, I'm a different person. A different person. They'd be like, he's whacked out. He's cracked out. Is he footage of me in his studio?
- [65:08]
A
What's your demeanor in the studio?
- [65:10]
B
So I'll sing something and it'll, like, be freestyled. But then I listen back to it like, I didn't even make it. Like, this is the best part of my day. I'm having so much fun right now. I light up. It's like. It's the thing that, like, my whole being feels like I'm supposed to be doing that. I just tell him, like, I'm a little. It's like a screw loose or something. It's not necessarily that. And I think I've done it long enough now where I'm like, max Martin, Rick Rubin, Pharrell. Every time I'm. I'm around. The other day, I was in the room working on BTS with. And Max Martin was in another room. And it was. I was in la. I took a quick trip. They're, like, finishing up their album. Blah, blah, blah. They asked me to come out there, work on. On stuff for them. Um. Max walks in the room. We're working on something, and I'm not, like, creatively, like, what am I gonna. Nope, I can go there. Max Martin walks in the room and he listens to what we do. Max is 20 years older than me, you know, like, all right, here we go. I've never seen him work before. I'm, like, on the couch and I'm looking at him and he, like. He's like, can I give some notes? And he's in a room full of, like, Eight people. I can't explain it. And producers and writers will know what I mean. This motherfucker in 17 seconds. It was like he listened to it one time and he was like, oh, your intro is your pre. Just take your intro and make it your pre because that's your best part. He's like, and then bring it back in 30 seconds later. We were like, boop boop boop boop. We moved it all and we all looked at it and I was like, oh, man. Like, only time can make someone that fucking cold. It's the same thing with Pharrell. Pharrell be walking in the room after working on something all day. He'd be walking in and just be like, no, no, no. Just ba ba ba ba. Move this and do this here. I know that the wall looks like it's 5,000ft tall, but it's only 5ft wide. Just walk around it. I'm like, God almighty. There's a motherfuckers be asking me how do I get good? And I'm like, yo, it's just. You gotta just do it for 20 years. Because the 20 year motherfuckers are so cold. Pharrell's so Rick Ruben, so cold. Max Martin is so cold. They're so good. And then I thought when I got with them, they'd give me the keys. But then I realized they just didn't get off the treadmill for 20 years. I'm like, oh, that's true mastery. Like Picasso doing like a drawing on a Napkin when he's 80 and it's just a stick figure. After all that shit, it's like the wall was only five feet wide. I really look up to those five feet wide motherfuckers. It's amazing to watch. I don't know how I went on that tangent. I get passionate about music.
- [67:33]
A
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- [68:43]
B
Yeah.
- [68:44]
A
How is it not the case that the person who has the most talent doesn't make the best music? What is it that's getting in the way?
- [68:50]
B
There might be a talent of making things that people enjoy to hear. Like Tame Impala. Like Kevin of Kevin Parker. He's like. I think he just like has a talent in making things that people enjoy to listen to. This is soothing to my ears and I want to play it on the way to the beach at the club. I don't think he's like the third chair at the fucking Ragmanovich Orchestra in Australia. Or maybe he might be a savant in making the thing that. You know what I mean?
- [69:23]
A
In delivering instead of that. I've had this thing. So I was thinking about most.
- [69:27]
B
Sorry to cut you off. Most of the bigger producers I've been around, I've recognized that they don't really have any. Any technical ability. None. Some of them can't even play an instrument.
- [69:36]
A
Like an impresario.
- [69:37]
B
No. They're just like, I don't care that it's the third harmony and that's not in the chord. The chord just feels good. And that's how I've kind of been blessed enough to kind of be. I can't tell you what I'm playing on a keyboard. I can play the shit out of the piano, but I can't tell you what key I'm playing in any of it. I just know when it comes back to me, I go, I would listen to this in my free time.
- [69:57]
A
Taste.
- [70:02]
B
Yo. I'm like, sometimes riffers be riffing too much. I don't want to hear you. It's like. And then you want to play me the song and you just. Just all over the song, riffing. It's like, I Don't even know what you're trying to tell me. Let me sit in the. Let me sit in the room for a bit and at least look at the wallpaper before you invite me in the den. I gotta. If you're trying to take me on a house tour and then you gotta. When do you take them out? When they're bored. To take them into the next room. Not just look at this house and there's purple walls and there's blue walls there. Some. Some counterfuckers be trying to. You'd be trying to just give them the whole house tour on the whole shit.
- [70:39]
A
Can talent be an obstacle in that way?
- [70:40]
B
Of course. Talent, self belief. What. That's a whole other deeper conversation. What is talent? I mean, we could spin our wheels all day into the. The digression of what. The basis of the root of the whatever. But talent is like. I've just noticed. It's just like that. And a dollar gets you to ride the bus. Like, it doesn't. It doesn't. Some people are talented at just working the system. I know a lot of writers that can't write a song. I never mentioned their names. I never. Whatever. I know a lot of writers that have no business. No business being in a room writing songs. But damn, you know how to go to the bar mitzvah. Damn, you know how to talk to the CEO and get the dinner. But some of the guys in the back be like, okay, if you're going to get me to the bigger artist and you're the social bridge that I have to tap dance to get to. All right, Far be it from me to whatever. But. But that's a talent. To say that because you play the guitar better than everybody else makes you successful in a musical industry that's more fucked up than you could ever imagine. There's tap. What's a talent, bro? Talent. Like, I play the greatest piano in the world. It's like, yeah, but do you know the. The radio programmer over at so and so? It's this big weird coagulating thing.
- [72:02]
A
That's where the artistic purity versus the game playing sort of comes back in again. Right? And I think, yes, there's always going to be a sense of elitism in. He's so artistically pure.
- [72:16]
B
Absolutely.
- [72:16]
A
If only he was prepared to lower himself to the standard of. You to have to go to fucking. The dinner, the bar mitzvah or whatever. You know, he's above that.
- [72:24]
B
There's people. It's funny. It's like, you know, for me, in a time in my life for those six years, I was so removed from being an artist that I just wanted hits. So my brain wasn't geared toward, like, in six years, I'm gonna go on a podcast and talk about some of the biggest songs I ever wrote for them. Me to go on a podcast and talk about all the giant number one Billboard songs I have. For the comments to be like, here's why I hate every single song. I can't prove to you that I'm talented. Some people don't even think I'm talented. Some people think I'm the most talented to ever. Grace the fucking.
- [73:00]
A
Didn't need to use the British accent.
- [73:06]
B
Thinking he came out of me. I said, oh, I thought, I'm in the. I don't know why. Remember.
- [73:12]
A
Remember the audience.
- [73:13]
B
I don't know why the British has to fall into that.
- [73:16]
A
Well, I. I have to remind you that we are on stolen land right now. Specifically stolen from the British.
- [73:23]
B
Yo, I don't know.
- [73:24]
A
Should have started with a fucking land acknowledgement before we began this podcast.
- [73:27]
B
I'm getting way too comfortable with you right now. We're gonna get a beer after this. What was that? I don't even remember what I was saying.
- [73:33]
A
I want to tell you. I want to tell you this thing that's been in the back of my mind. I was thinking about this conversation and I wondered where you were going to go. And I said, what? What? I've realized that people that are very, very talented don't always make that. Sell the most records, be the most popular or whatever. Even be the most liked.
- [73:47]
B
Like.
- [73:47]
A
Yes. One of the things that I've noticed since being around musicians more over the last couple of years is that artists tend to fall into two categories or there's a spectrum that they're moving in. And on one side is create like an artist. That's artistic purity. That's skill. That's like, are you an impresario? What's your ability to play scales and also to create the music, like, on your side. Like, I just know what's good, and I can put it. I can put it into a track. On the other side is operating like an athlete. So create like an artist. Operate like an athlete.
- [74:21]
B
Absolutely.
- [74:22]
A
And it's okay. How many repetitions are you doing? Are you in five days a week from 11 till 7?
- [74:26]
B
Yes.
- [74:26]
A
Are you spending your time drilling and working and looking over game tape and working on your mindset and nutrition and, you know, whatever it is, like, all of the individual components?
- [74:36]
B
Yes. Especially after having kids, you have to be so can't be Olympic without a. An Olympic approach.
- [74:42]
A
One way to look at it would be you have to ship at a pace required to work out what works. And have to ship.
- [74:54]
B
What do you mean ship?
- [74:55]
A
Ship a product.
- [74:55]
B
Oh, got it, got it, got it, got it.
- [74:56]
A
Send it, send it. It's like, okay, dude, we could just, we could keep fucking trying to record this riff for the next three weeks. Send the fucker off to get mastered. Like, mix it, master it, let's get, put it, let's see what happens. And just a lot of the time what I've seen is that because artists tend to be like, away with the fucking fairy, you know, like just a cigarette butt in a fucking afternoon. I'm in a hammock, I'm gonna have a walk. It's like, okay, Dud, sit down and do some work, please. And I'm interested in what you think about the value of consistency. Might be a way to look at it for sure.
- [75:31]
B
I've noticed in my older age that you can't will it. You walk away from it if it don't work. Because again, if you're just the instrument, if the player doesn't show up that day, you're not going to be played. A trumpet can't play itself. A trumpet alone, without the player is some like a metal. But the second the player, the second God comes in, or inspiration or the muse or the whatever comes in and plays through you, it becomes this thing. The issue is that when the trumpet starts to believe that it's playing itself, and then you wake up every day and think you can will this into existence and I'm gonna. And then you're like, why hasn't it came in a bunch of years? It's because you didn't let the thing bigger than you come in the room. If the thing bigger than you doesn't come in, you will never have energy. We're not getting energy from ourselves. You're getting energy from this. Like, I don't know how that song was written that day or when that came or whatever. So you're a little less. I'm a little less hard on myself sometimes when it doesn't come out the way I want it to.
- [76:22]
A
You can't white knuckle creativity, you can't white knuckle creativity.
- [76:25]
B
And you can't control culture. Some things you'll drop and it will not be the right time. And 10 years later, this shit will be looked back on and be like, what an amazing piece of art. And da, da.
- [76:34]
A
So prescient he was able to predict where the genre was going to go a decade before it did.
- [76:38]
B
Yeah. And a lot of people in the beginning, they just say, is that I've dealt with that my whole career. Whole career. Every album six years later is like, the new one sucks, but the old one was the one. Then six years later, the new one sucks. Like, what are you gonna do, man? It's crazy.
- [76:55]
A
Talk to me about the story of the new album.
- [77:07]
B
Get a phone call one day. It's a new regime over at the old label that I had. They're like three presidents removed. One of them is a fam. Why aren't you putting out music on our label? You guys are fucking me on the contract. What would you do if we gave you your shit back? Let's have that conversation. Talk to my lawyer. He's like, you know, we might be able to get your whole. The reason why you walked away. We might be able to reverse it. I'm like, I ain't an artist. Well, go find out. Go see if it'll calls me back. He's like, you now have X percentage of yourself. What are you gonna do? I was like, yeah, I'm not. I already. I already pushed that down the river. And then over time, it was just kind of like working on songs for really, really big artists and then being like, I don't have to write about the experience that's not mine today. Like, I could.
- [77:54]
A
Felt like the door was.
- [77:55]
B
Then it started to turn into me telling, like, my buddy Pete Nappy or my buddy 10 Rock or whatever, like, prolific, prolific musicians and producers. Like. Like ridiculous. Like, ridiculous. Only reason why the album sounds as good as it does. Yo, hang on to that one. Started turning. It's like, you play a bunch of records for, like, this huge artist, and there's these millions that could possibly come from them taking it. And then you get to the playlist, and there's one. I'd be like, hi. Hit the next one.
- [78:23]
A
So funny.
- [78:24]
B
Yeah. And I. I found myself telling my wife, like, I'm not having a blast right now. But you know what would be fun? If I went and wrote about. And she's just like, it's happening again, isn't it? Yeah. And then one night, she randomly, out of nowhere, right before we went to bed, she. My wife's amazing. She. She goes, I'm not asking you. I'm telling you. She's like, you gotta go do this, because you won't. You're not gonna be. You're gonna be regretful in Many, many years. If you don't, if you don't come back and do this again. She goes, and I don't feel like dealing with you joking around. She's like, I don't feel like dealing with you in 20 years. When you say you coulda da da da da. She's like, go spend the money, go risk it all. Go back into the world, Go do what you gotta do. She was like, I'm telling you to, I'm not asking you to. I was like, okay. And then I just, I had a battery in my back for some reason when she, when my, when me and my wife were on the same page. Life decision making, a lot of stuff is easier. Especially when she puts the battery in my back. She puts a battery in my back, I'm like, I'm like, drool out the mouth, gorilla beat on my chest. Don't get in my fucking way. That's how I feel when she's so, the second, she was like, literally like awesome. Like they need whatever you need to say. I believe in my heart that the world needs to hear it. And your fans have grown up and they've matured with you and you have accomplished so much self worth and you've put yourself in the background for so many years. She's like, it's, it's, it's okay to, it's okay to like accept what's going to come from whatever's coming here. And I just went nuts. And in like six months we had an album. Five months we had an album. So that's the story behind it, bro. Crazy, crazy. And then fast forward, there's a bunch of stuff I can't talk about that's coming out. But like, I thought of this album in my mind as like I told my business manager, I said, I'm burning X millions of dollars of my own money and I don't expect to ever get it back. This will be only pure, exactly who I am, artistry. I'm not concerned about hits and I want to shoot the biggest videos and be like super creative on it. And I don't expect to get a return on my money yet. This, this money won't come back culturally for another 10, 20 years because I can't. I'd have to get back on the road and then start to schematicize how to make my money back, which will, which will dilute the process. So like in myself having money, I was able to do a pure process of burn money by working on art that was just for art's Sake. And I think that is a reason why it came across as potent to bigger artists that I'm working with now or shit, that's coming out soon. Or. Thank God I treated it like a 2. A many million dollar commercial. This is not. This is just like a commercial to stir the soup and remind the world that there could be other opportunity for me to go work on music in other areas.
- [81:12]
A
It's the greatest advertising campaign of all time.
- [81:14]
B
Exactly. It wasn't the definitive thing that's going to make me the greatest in the world ever. It never is. It's just always these constant. It's a new lure in the ocean, fishing for a new type of fish. Because I want to just keep it moving. But when you want to keep things moving, sometimes you got to do the thing that doesn't make sense. The machine's not going to help you. Then you fast forward and we're on. We're at Forest Hills, 26,000 deep. And I laugh about it because it's fucking hilarious. Fucking hilarious. Like, the grateful. The grateful thing changes a lot of. A lot of. I'm sorry if I'm rambling.
- [81:47]
A
I'm loving it, dude.
- [81:49]
B
It's. It's been a. Someone be like, my friends be coming over and they'll be like, dude, can you believe you? The fucking da da, da da. And I'm like, I know. Like, they paid me for it. Like, that's. That's where I'm at consistently in my older age. I can't believe it.
- [82:07]
A
Yeah. It feels to me like mostly artists get split into two camps. Artists that have beef with other artists and artists that have beef with the industry. You fall into the latter camp.
- [82:21]
B
And also, too. I was also. I also signed it at a young age. I also, like, look at my publishers who signed me early and only gave me a $10,000 advance that I was in for 10 years before I signed my second publishing deal. Like, it was all anger and it was blame, and it was never. And then you get older and you realize, like, they were just trying to do what the. It's a reflection of the norm of the industry. It's a reflection of people's greed. It's a reflection of whatever. And it's my response. I don't ask for the trauma, but it's my responsibility to it. I don't ask for it. And that's not fair. That's the injustice of life. That's the thing. Why'd you put me here if you were going to? That's your fault for making Me, I didn't ask to be born. It's like, we don't ask for the traumas, but it's our responsibility to process them. Because your life's going to be miserable unless you don't. So you have to take responsibility for even the things that were out of your control, which is tough. But I'll tell you, at the other end of it, we are simultaneously living where everything is the most important decision we've ever made in our life, leading toward this amalgamation of our work forever and Covid could, like, happen again. It's like this thing where, like, nothing matters, but everything matters, but none of it matters. So, like, shit's working right now.
- [83:33]
A
I want to know how you want father figure to make men feel who listen to it.
- [84:07]
B
It's funny. Like, we were on a vibe and a feeling that I don't want to speak from that feeling. I almost have to, like, re. Center myself to. To open the bird cage, to get to the general pure intention of what that was. If I could soothe the guy who has lost sight of the fact that fathers are important. And your role in your children's life is more important in the lineage of your family from a thousand years back to a thousand years in the future, your job as a father will do more than anything you could ever do in this physical world. It will echo and reverberate further than you ever could because you're downloading and imprinting into something that came from you. My son is me, and his son will be him, and we will live forever through each other. You're the most important job you could ever do. I hope for 47 minutes or however long my album is, that you can be reminded you've never lost the path far enough where you can't return to your kids. You are not damaged. You are not damaged so badly that you can't return to your children because your children need you, whether. Whether you like that fact or not. So if I could put a little espresso in your cup in the morning to go and be whatever that figure is, which is different for all men and whatever, but somewhere along the way, we threw the baby out with the bathwater. And I don't know what I mean by that. I just mean culturally. Somewhere along, we've lost the thread of fathers. There's a thread that is like. I cannot put my finger on it artistically. It just. No, no, no, no, no, no, no. It's important, man. Keep going. Clock in. Don't have that drink. Don't pick up the pill. Bottle. The child needs you and your role is important. Just because you're not on the radio or you're not making hits. No, fathers are. The fathers are a bedrock, a pillar in something very, very important. We can't lose that. If I could bring some attention to that with another man who's struggling with that, I don't think a 12 year old is going to relate yet. But if a guy my age who's like, man, I'm thinking about leaving, I'm thinking about just fuck all, I'm going to just go back to the bar because I'm not good enough to take care of my children. I'm not perfect. And that's what I want that album to just speak to. I don't know how the ending finish line will be, but if you could just pop that on and even if one day it prevents you from choosing something that's not gonna feed you for the rest of your life, that's what I genuinely at the bottom of my heart hope that the album speaks to and I wanted to make the music and the cut so balmain that it made you proud to listen to. Cause there's a difference between an After School special and goodfellas. Goodfellas. The lesson that you learn, you're not feeling like you're being told something because it's in this messy, murdered Italian heritage thing. It's in this thing. But then you go, be careful what you wish for, be careful who you trust. Being the top dog sometimes is not even what you might want. Bang, bang, bang, bang, bang. But it's wrapped up in this thing. Like I wanted to make good fellas. I didn't want to make like being a dad is important. Like. So I felt there was a responsibility there morally for me to creatively attack it to, to. To the best that I could in that direction. It's a very long winded answer. But.
- [88:05]
A
Was that a fear that you had? What not being able to live up to the. Your own standards for a father?
- [88:12]
B
It's a fear I have every day. You don't know how. I don't know how I'm. I want my kid to know what working for money is like, but I don't want my kid to be like this, like starving, like. Cause I know some kids that grew up and be like, my dad was rich, he didn't give me a cent. Fuck my dad. And then there's another kid in rehab who's like, my dad never let me make any decisions on my own and gave me all my opportunity. So Every day I pray to God there's a balance and a patience with my son all through three of my sons to say, I know I'm like lightly messing you up somehow. I just like don't know yet. And hopefully it doesn't like topple your world.
- [88:50]
A
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- [90:19]
B
Yep.
- [90:21]
A
And they think, I don't want to rob my child of the opportunity to learn those lessons for themselves because I know how important those lessons were for them.
- [90:30]
B
Yes. Yes.
- [90:31]
A
And at the same time, what the fuck was the point in working so hard if I'm not going to give them the opportunities that I didn't get?
- [90:38]
B
It's like the term Nepo baby. People be like, oh, like you're a Nepo baby. It's like. But when a man, like, comes from nothing and makes something of himself, the second he makes something of himself, you become. It's like they exalt you to want you to chase after your dreams. But then when you get your dreams and you have kids. That kid's just the product of a man who reached his dreams. It's like, bitch, you told me to chase him. Now I'm in trouble for the fact that you. It's like, it's. That's like nipple baby to me. Like, I hear that term being flown around with like kids who have parents who are in the industry and this, that, and the third. It's like what you want their parents to do. And if you are a Nepo baby, what do you do? You fucking wear a dunce cap and sit in your closet every night and just be like, I'm. I'm too privileged to, like, have an opinion or make art. Like, what are you supposed to do? I don't know.
- [91:24]
A
Interesting. You know, Fred again, you know, he, I think comes from at least a little bit of wealth.
- [91:29]
B
I have no idea.
- [91:29]
A
I didn't know that. I found that out this week. I think family comes from at least some degree of what people would call privilege. I think I get the sense, looking at the way that Fred presents and looking at the sort of shows he did. Do you see that he did a miniature tour around the islands of Scotland?
- [91:46]
B
No, I did not.
- [91:47]
A
He played 200 person cap, working men's pubs.
- [91:52]
B
Sick.
- [91:53]
A
And clubs.
- [91:53]
B
Sick.
- [91:54]
A
Right? And it was.
- [91:55]
B
Love it.
- [91:56]
A
Stornoway. These tiny little fucking islands or the Hebrides or some shit off the top corner of. Of Scotland. And the way that he presents online with his social media, very sort of anti marketing, marketing type thing. I get the sense that a lot of that will be an additional burden that Fred has to pay in order to like, wipe the potential accusation of Nepo baby.
- [92:21]
B
Say that again. Rework that last part.
- [92:24]
A
He needs to what's called counter signal, okay. That I'm playing these tiny shows. I'm not flying at this ridiculous, like, I'm a man of the people. Okay. In an attempt, this is an additional burden that he has to get over just so that people see him as someone that is remotely fucking resonant. Got it, got it, got it, got it, got it. And because the accusation is so. And I mean, that's also, by the looks of things, like who he is, like a pretty nice, chill, down to earth dude.
- [92:52]
B
Definitely, definitely.
- [92:53]
A
And the way that he wants to live and all the rest of the things as well. But there has to be in the back of your mind this weird scenario where you go, the privileges that I was afforded are a burden that I have to get over as well.
- [93:05]
B
Absolutely.
- [93:05]
A
I have to work harder or counter signal in this Weird way or downplay.
- [93:12]
B
That's. I would say the last. The last two years have really started. I feel like he's on an ascension and his. His moment is like, happening and it's all this stuff. So he's going to figure that he seems like a very brilliant, bright guy. So I'm sure I wish him the best of luck on that journey. Because you're right, that is something that you have to deal with in the public eye. It's like it's so fake that it's not fake, that I'm making fun of.
- [93:34]
A
It for being fake.
- [93:35]
B
And by the way, go buy my album. It's like we're all. We're all. Yeah on that. But I recognize there's another thing where it's just like something, or at least I'm trying to work on creatively, is just. I am not apologetic for any space I'm in anymore. I will. It's a waste of time. It's a creative waste of time. I would. I can't. I can't. I have to believe I belong in a space in order for something to be believable. So for me to posture my whole life about making sure I'm accepted in the space creatively again, as I talk within the music stancer, I. I have a much more direct. Whatever. It's just like a waste of. To posture. That's another reason why it's like social media is like, you're damned if you do, damned if you don't. I'd rather just not be on it. I don't. I.
- [94:20]
A
All of the caveating dilutes down the purity of what it is that you're trying to say. Again, dude, it comes back to you're trying to justify yourself to people who don't understand what you're trying to do. Oh, you don't get it. Well, that's a shame. But if you tried to litigate your way or caveat or create in advance some odd disclaimer that front runs the criticism that you think most people are going to have about.
- [94:47]
B
What are you saying? Welcome to politics.
- [94:50]
A
It's so arduous. Dude, I had. Bernie Sanders was on the show on Sunday.
- [94:54]
B
Really?
- [94:55]
A
Yeah, that came out.
- [94:57]
B
I gotta watch that.
- [94:57]
A
It's really good. It was really fun. In the space of a couple of comments that I saw, one was, this is absolutely unspeakable. I can't believe how judgmental you are. You are always shilling for the right. And it's obvious that all you're doing is like pushing these, like, Hard right, right wing views. And then the next comment that I saw was, you only interview liberal. You only interview liberal guests. It's evident who's paying you off. I screenshotted both of them and put them in Instagram stories side by side. I was like a story of the Internet in two slides.
- [95:34]
B
Literally. Literally. Sometimes I feel like, why do I.
- [95:37]
A
Even like I'm being spit roasted by two people pointing in opposite directions.
- [95:41]
B
You can't be both. How could you be both villains?
- [95:44]
A
Well, apparently I am. Unbelievable. And this is the point. If you try and please everybody, you're going to end up pleasing nobody. And if you fucking caveat, you're going to dilute your work down so much.
- [95:53]
B
Double down, double down, double down. Until you really in your soul realize the error of your ways. If you don't feel like there's error of your ways, you're going to turn to a super angry person. You'll be angry at yourself for kowtowing to the thing that you've like the, the rehearsed speech you're supposed to give everybody before you go into a. A space. It's a waste of time. It's a waste of time. Art is. Art suffers through that. Art suffers in the, the validation. Some of the best art comes from the people who were never supposed to get their hands on music equipment. Some of the best heart comes from. But to say you haven't paid your dues in the sense of blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. It's like, man, I ain't, I'm not. You're barking up the wrong tree with me. The wrong tree. At least in the studio. Everywhere else in my life. I don't, I don't know. But I would never be able to go into the places I'm going into on the album without me being like, I am not by no stress of the imagination. Asking for your opinion on that. Your opinion. Asking for your opinion on whether I deserve to go into that space or not creatively.
- [96:55]
A
Where do you think about self belief coming from? Because that sounds like an awful lot of self belief.
- [97:06]
B
It probably has a lot to do with my father telling me I'm great. Constantly, Constantly. My whole life, even when I wasn't. He was so proud of me playing songs for my family in the backyard. My son made the. My son made this. And I'm like, dad, it's not good. I made it in his ass. Stop embarrassing me. But looking back on it, it's like, you are spectacular. You're spectacular. Like, I was told that for so long that I think your brain just snaps in and wires at a certain point and you go, I'm spectacular. And when someone says, no, you're not, you say, no, the man who made me told me I am, so fuck off. And then you look back and you're like, thank God. I believed it even when it wasn't true, because that's what got me to the place to be. Like, I got really, really good because I thought I couldn't. I thought I was good, but I wasn't in retrospect. But maybe that's the whole. That's the whole equation is just like, even when you're not. Yeah, I don't. That's a. That gets really convoluted with self belief. But I do think a lot of it has to do with both of my parents telling me I was great.
- [98:08]
A
You know what's strange?
- [98:10]
B
And some people to this day don't believe things that anything I've ever done is great.
- [98:15]
A
Dad does.
- [98:16]
B
Yeah, exactly. Exactly. And I've noticed that a lot of my actions or my things come from. A trillion fans are not worth dad saying, you did a good job. I put my money. I put all the money I have on that. And it's tough for some people. So I'm not a big, like a privilege and thanks for letting me in the cool house. I'm not. I'm not that type of guy. But I can't imagine that's why that album's important. I can't imagine. I ain't nobody's daddy, but if I could play an album that just tells you stay the course and you're not broken because everybody's broken. Like, that's the. That's the album. It's funny that they just got back to that, but yeah, without. I couldn't imagine. Couldn't imagine.
- [99:21]
A
Yeah.
- [99:30]
B
Silence on podcast Crazy.
- [99:34]
A
We were saying before about the challenge of growing up with a big pair of shoes to fill financially in terms of corporate success. Dad was a doctor, Mum was a pharmacologist. And you're going to become a lawyer or whatever it might be.
- [99:54]
B
Yours were.
- [99:55]
A
No, no, no. Like you can just imagine.
- [99:56]
B
Got it.
- [99:56]
A
We talked about the kind of Nepo baby expectation.
- [99:59]
B
Yes.
- [99:59]
A
I think it's one of the reasons that kids from wealth are more likely to use hard drugs, not just because they can afford them, but secondly, because they need to find a way to be able to cope with the expectation. It's another reason why this is a great insight, dude. I learned this on a great substack Post we look at the kids of high performing parents are more likely to go to college. You say, maybe that's because of advantages. Maybe it's because of private tutoring. Maybe it's because of Whatever. Whatever, whatever. What if it's because they have such a fear of insufficiency if they don't meet the minimum standard that their parents set for them, they are driven by the fear of insufficiency. So all of that is to say, classic. If you come from privilege, there is an expectation that you live up to the opportunities and also the standards of your parents. Right. Objectively, what you have, which is really interesting, is what sounds to me like a really wonderful father. And you have the obligation to try and live up to the standard of fatherhood that your father set for you.
- [101:06]
B
Yep.
- [101:07]
A
And this isn't. You cannot fill this with the number of records you sell. You cannot fill this with the size of your bank account or the house or the fucking. However many as you are does not matter.
- [101:15]
B
Yes.
- [101:16]
A
And that's a unique kind of pressure and expectation that's holistic and beautiful, but is still going to be there. Holy fuck. I had like an Olympian level father and I now need to try and be that for my sons.
- [101:38]
B
Yes.
- [101:39]
A
Is that a pressure to sort of fill the shoes of dad for your sons that you felt?
- [101:57]
B
Wow. Yes. In the beginning. And then it slowly turned into, Like, understanding that my father. Is me. And it's like, okay, we're gonna have to chop this up, because I don't know how I'm gonna even get to the. What I'm trying to say, if. We don't ask for the trauma, we don't ask for the trauma. But it's our responsibility to process it. Right. If you take the time to process it, The mountain of a father starts to look different. It's not a mountain anymore. It's another human being that worked three jobs to get his ice cream shit off the ice cream truck, off the thing in Brooklyn for him to move his family out to Long island to give his son pro tools and to be able to afford it by the time he's a guy that, like my dad, be telling me stories about his father and his grandfather that I'm like, my father is amazing. Miracle. A miracle. I think it has to do a lot with Jesus in his life, but my father is a miracle. All the good things I want from him in droves and more good things than bad things with my father, because my dad was amazing. He was. He was around every corner. I have Good. I have. My father did the right things around it. And especially having children now I know what he sacrificed to get to be present with me. I want all that stuff. And then the other stuff that I didn't ask for, that's deep rooted all the way into the grandfather's. Grandfather, grandfather, grandfather. I didn't ask for it. But it's my job to process this so I don't look at him as an unattainable thing. The reason I am successful or not successful, a figure that I can't mold myself into. I look at him as somebody trying to figure out just like I am. And with the tools he was given, he did a pretty damn good job. Because when I go to retreats and I'm around people that have made mistakes in their life or accomplished incredible things and won the PGA Tour and yada, yada, yada, it all lines to daddy. There's a weird. There's a really strong thick through line of men with their fathers and what it ends up being, what it doesn't end up being and whatever. But like, I don't even know what I'm trying to say. I just say. I guess what I'm trying to say is I look at my father now, right now, like today, and there's no, like, Thank you for everything. And I don't blame you for anything. Thank you for what you did give me. And it's 90%. It's. It's all, it's all good. It's all good. It's like. The biggest lie of it all is that you go, you can't connect back with your father. Your father might be too successful. You can't connect with him. Your father might be too much of a drunk. You can't connect with him. Your father might be. It might not even be healthy for some people to actually connect with their parents because they're in such fucked up positions and whatever. You will never be able to figure much out without going headfirst into uncovering what the story and lineage is with your parents and facing that whether you ask for it or not. That might not involve you even seeing your parents, but I can tell you that your life will open up if you can process that. I don't even know how I got to there from the question that you asked me. And we're gonna have to edit all that space out and whatever.
- [106:33]
A
But no, no, no. The space is going nowhere. Sorry.
- [106:36]
B
Like the, the. I just think fathers are very important. I think, I think that I just. I might think that there's not much more importance than a mother and a father. Whatever we have to do culturally. I ain't no fucking politician or none of that shit, but whatever we have to do culturally to re establish the importance of that is important to me. That doesn't leave me on any side of the political special, but I would go to war for the idea that fathers are important. I mean, cosmically. DNA from Saturn to here and back levels of. Since the primordial soup of cavemen fathers. It's. And depending on how this. Depending on how this goes is where this whole thing will fall or stand. I'm speaking very symbolically, but I know how we treat the unit, how we treat the leader in micro leader of every home, culturally across the thing. What we do with this will determine what it all looks like top to bottom, because it begins and ends with that. So it's tough for me to go on podcast. I don't really even know what I mean. I just know what I mean by that. Whatever that means is what it means.
- [108:00]
A
Everybody knows what you mean.
- [108:02]
B
Yeah, it's gonna get tough, man. It's gonna get tough. You can't throw the baby out with the bathwater in the process of trying to get justice. Don't. Don't burn. You can't burn the whole fucking thing down. Parents are important. You can't burn the whole thing down in the pursuit that you believe to be righteous. And I don't know what I even. It's not left. That's not right. I'm just saying in the pursuit, you can't fucking burn the house down in the winter. You still gotta have a roof over your head since there's a hole in the wall in a room and cold air's coming in and people are trying to go fix the hole. You can't just sit in the house all day and say, well, the hole wouldn't be there if you didn't fucking. Da da, da da da. I know, but there's still a fucking hole. So can you come with me to come and fix the hole? If we don't fix the hole, it's gonna get cold. It's gonna get cold in this motherfucker. Cold. And there ain't no. Not a lot of amount of millionaires are gonna change that.
- [109:07]
A
I brought this up with Bernie on Sunday. It's my second time in New York in a week. And he's big into inequality, as am I. I grew up working class. I grew up as working classes as possible. And I wanted to get his thoughts on a few Statistics that I'll say to you now as well. I basically put forward the idea that fatherlessness is the real inequality.
- [109:29]
B
Poof.
- [109:31]
A
Boys who grew up apart from their biological father are about two times more likely to land in prison or jail by age 30. Fatherlessness is a better predictor of incarceration than race or growing up. Poor young men are more likely to end up in prison or jail in the US Than they are to graduate from college if they are raised in any non intact family setup. More likely to end up in prison or jail than they are to graduate college if they grow up in any non intact family setup.
- [110:02]
B
And that's like across the world.
- [110:05]
A
Just the U.S. just the U.S. wow. Regardless of family income, children in intact families are half as likely to be diagnosed with depression. And girls who grow up without fathers are 10 times more likely to be diagnosed with depression.
- [110:26]
B
What do you gather from that?
- [110:30]
A
It's politically very unpalatable to talk about fatherlessness because it feels like you are putting blame on something very intimate and very closely associated to people's sense of self worth. I think that there are probably some breakouts by demographic here too, which are politically unpalatable for people to talk about too. That there are going to be subcultures and areas of the country in which this is worse and better. And that's also something that people don't really want to point the finger at. Because it sounds a lot like blaming. It sounds a lot like it's a slippery slope to get toward a type of conversation that's not too nice.
- [111:08]
B
Absolutely.
- [111:10]
A
And yet, exactly as you said there, we cannot deny the raw reality that growing up without a father in the home is not good for daughters and sons and mothers and the local community. And the fact that people are so unprepared to be able to hold two facts in their mind at one time, which is fathers are important and mothers can be independent.
- [111:47]
B
Absolutely.
- [111:49]
A
You know how there's an uncertainty principle in quantum physics? You have what's called a superposition. The particle can be in two places at once, essentially thinking in superpositions, allowing yourself to hold two thoughts in your mind at one time. And unfortunately, we have a world that refuses to think in superpositions and it collapses down the space.
- [112:13]
B
If you're in this, that means this.
- [112:14]
A
Yes.
- [112:14]
B
Yeah.
- [112:15]
A
If you want to give empathy to men, that means you're taking it away from another, more deserving group. If you're saying that fathers are important, you're implicitly saying that mothers are incapable. If you're saying that, you know Pick your one dimensional argument of choice. And I think that you are right. I think that there are many things that need to be looked at. Inequality is a big one of them. Poverty is a huge one. Class, the focus on the diversion away from the focus on class and into other, in some ways more arbitrary ways to delineate people from other people is a big problem. But. Removing focus from the family and from fathers and their role in the home in the hopes that what? By reminding people, but by trying to convince people that fathers aren't important, that somehow pedestalizes women, that somehow makes them more independent.
- [113:21]
B
Yeah, like there's no one. Like you said, like the super.
- [113:24]
A
Yeah. We can walk and chew gum at the same time. We can have a superposition in terms of our thoughts. And I think it's very prescient. Dude, I think this weird position that you're in, where you're talking, your album is a tribute to your father and an offering to your sons at the same time.
- [113:42]
B
Absolutely.
- [113:43]
A
It's going in both directions.
- [113:44]
B
Absolutely.
- [113:48]
A
I don't think we need to be ashamed. I don't think we need to do this fucking land acknowledgement. Each time before we do this, I talk about men and the problems of men an awful lot. And it will never not fatigue me to have to do well. We must remember that women have fell behind for all of this time. And oh, it's also important to remember that it's only been not been long since like. Guys, I get it, I get it. I wish I could just say it once or like have a disclaimer on my website and be like, I understand completely the challenges that we're talking about. I am not saying any of this huge list of things. Remember what we were talking about before. If you have to try and justify why you're in the room in order to be able to do the thing and you water it down and you have the caveat, which is exactly what I'm doing right now.
- [114:32]
B
No, no, no.
- [114:33]
A
You'd never get yourself.
- [114:34]
B
Yes. No, no, no. This is, this is. I don't see this as caveat. This is like.
- [114:37]
A
You understand what I mean?
- [114:38]
B
Cultivation of the thing.
- [114:40]
A
Yeah.
- [114:44]
B
I think, I think people are deathly afraid of the excavation because you just don't know what the fuck you're going to find. So it's a lot safer to just not excavate it. You say this, you mean this. If you say this, you mean this. And now I get to go home and live my life and whatever. Because if we were both to excavate I might actually like you. I might actually agree with you. We might actually be on the same page. Then I'm going to have to revert everything that is. Makes my life easier. It's easier to not excavate. It's easier to not excavate. If you have to excavate everything, that means you might have to really face yourself to find out what you truly believe at a gut level. Most people, I don't think. I just don't think people. It's just a lot. It's a lot easier to just not to excavate the problem. If we ask if you excavate the problem, you might have to ruffle some feathers. It's like, oh, I'm dealing with abuse in my family. Abuse runs in my family. We just don't talk about that. It's like, might be a little bit easier for now to not excavate it. Because if I excavate it, I might die facing that type of. But the only way you get anything is the. You gotta have the discourse, I guess. And I just. I guess discourse is not. It's just risky, dude. It's risky.
- [115:59]
A
It's becoming increasingly less risky. Which I like.
- [116:02]
B
Yes.
- [116:03]
A
And I think that this doesn't mean we need to have mask off. You can shitpost whatever you want.
- [116:08]
B
Totally.
- [116:09]
A
Totally. Obviously can be out. Yeah.
- [116:12]
B
Fuck.
- [116:13]
A
God damn it. We should call each other out every time we do it. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
- [116:16]
B
Absolutely. Absolutely. But I.
- [116:23]
A
It seems to me like the trend is moving in the right direction now. I think people are prepared to say what is accurate and. And caring and holistic and makes the world a better place.
- [116:39]
B
It's. It's. Yeah.
- [116:40]
A
Just with less of a concern about how it's going to land.
- [116:44]
B
That will help art greatly.
- [116:46]
A
Why?
- [116:47]
B
I mean, if there's no. You should. It's like when the Italians and the blacks and the Jews get together is magic. It is like. It's just like we're all. You can learn. There's. There's. Art is like, you take the Africa with the Europe with the thing to then make the thing that says, this is the most newest European African thing I've ever. Like, you gotta be able to like, you know. But I think it's all. It's like tribalism. And to be honest with you, I have taken the stance of kind of.
- [117:24]
A
Like.
- [117:26]
B
I gotta make sure, like, my house is clean. Like, I don't know what I mean by this, but, like, I have to make sure that my, like, shoes are lined up at the door and my Underwear's in the hamper for my wife before. I'm like. Cause there are all these voices that's like, how dare you make an album about your father, about being a father figure and trying to be better when you lost your patience with your kid. Yes.
- [117:47]
A
Yeah.
- [117:48]
B
There's this, like.
- [117:49]
A
But it's humility, though.
- [117:50]
B
There's grace. There has to be some sort of grace to be able to make. To be able to stumble into art. There's grace and stumbling. It's grace. It's stumbling. It's a.
- [118:00]
A
It's.
- [118:01]
B
It's learning what you did wrong or refining the product or whatever. But if there's people who you're not welcome in a space to create, we've already cut the art at the legs. So like you said, if there. If as a cultural whole, people are more excited about. I'm just gonna do what I feel and let the chips fall where they fall. The potency of art will 100% change. It won't be watered down or homogenized or whatever. But I'll tell you what. I don't know how much time we got. I'm having a blast. Not to just, like, expound on expounding, but, like, you know what? The last conversation with my wife for the last six days and my therapist this morning was just like, I, like. I also just, like, don't. I, like, I don't want the smoke. I don't need the smoke. I don't care. Like, I don't. It's not even my. When I go on social media, I'm, like, whipped up into this frenzy to believe that, like, it's my role to speak out, to join the ranks of the thing. I'm just gonna shut social media off today and make sure I threw my underwear in the hamper for my wife. Like, let's just, like, start there. Like, let's just, like, take a fucking second to. I have strong beliefs about a lot of things and a lot of things that I'll expound upon with people in the studio for four hours. People who lean super left and people who lean super right and people who don't believe the government's real. All of those things combined. I will have the nuanced conversation with. I. I struggle with. Just, like, I have a moral obligation in my art to, like, say what I believe in. But I also. I don't need. I don't need it to, like, I, like. I like going to the store and just, like. Like, hanging out, buying my. Going home, eating dinner, working on music, coming back.
- [119:47]
A
Well, you have to remember, I, I.
- [119:49]
B
I struggle, I struggle in that. That's the best way to put it. I have no answer. I, I, I struggle deeply with who I'm called to be.
- [119:57]
A
It's the balance again, dude. It's the balance board.
- [120:01]
B
Wow.
- [120:02]
A
It keeps on coming up. And the reason that it keeps on coming up is that you have no obligation as a recording artist to do anything that you don't want to do.
- [120:11]
B
Yep.
- [120:12]
A
You have worked this hard to afford yourself the opportunity to not have to do anything that you don't want to do and say anything that you don't want to say.
- [120:19]
B
Yeah. I even think sometimes I say, you may have been conditioned by too much content to grow to be angry at me for expecting what you think my output should be. That's not my fault. Like, it's like somebody being like, well, you don't get good ticket sale, ticket sale splits on your money. Because that's just the way the industry works. Like, that's not my issue. Don't shit on me. Because that's just the, like, the artist is just. This isn't a, it's in a weird, it's weird. I wanna, like, I owe you my music. Maybe this, that kind of. Yeah.
- [120:55]
A
If you're lucky.
- [120:56]
B
The gratefulness that pours out of me for people that like, look back at me at a stadium is like a whole other level of appreciation. You took time out of your day and you spent money to come and do this. And I am so deeply thankful for that. But. It's not my, like, I don't. Whatever you've come to expect from artists, I'm not gonna be unhealthy to fit myself into that if it just doesn't work for me. If my pace is four albums, one album every four years and you get the best of me and I'm like a healthy father because of it. And whatever. Like, I, you might have to like.
- [121:37]
A
Sorry.
- [121:38]
B
Sorry. I'm not gonna be doing two albums a year double sided deluxe with the thing with the performance at the thing with the. And I also don't need to be right. I don't need to prove to the. I do the thing I love every day. And in that service, it's between me and the creator. I create with collaborators and it's between me and him. And as long as I'm here and I'm doing the thing and I'm doing the crayon and giving it to my daddy for him to put on the refrigerator. Oh, look at this little creator thinking he made a masterpiece. And it's like, I made the whole universe. As long as I'm here saying, hey, Daddy, I made this for you, there's not much else I could give to you. Because anything else beyond that to me, it's not in my alignment. It's not in my. Like, it's not in my. The deeper I am in my purpose, I will provide more utility for the long term of the world. And I can only determine what I believe my deepest utility to be. So I have to operate within where I think I'm humming at my highest frequency of utility. For someone to say, you're not. You're not utilitizing the way I want you to utilitize, it's like, well, like, what are we. It's a rough. It's a rough go of it for artists right now. It's a rough. It's a rough go of is. It is. It's insane. Analysis paralysis. I don't know how. I do not know how they do it.
- [123:07]
A
Kids.
- [123:07]
B
I have no idea. Out here, 11 years old, talking about so blessed to win the athlete of the year award. Comments. He ain't so and so from Houston. It's like, you're 11, dude. Some. They're gonna look at this like cigarettes and artists are the main cigarette smokers because we gotta use that to get streaming services shitting on us. So we have to double down by using the platforms that only need us to use it because it makes users use the platform. They don't actually care about the artist. So then we have to change our behavior as artists to succeed on a platform that only cares about the platform getting eyes. So then we turn into like stupid monkeys performing for Instagram. You motherfuckers doing a Carlton out on TikTok to be like, listen to my song. You think motherfuckers 20 years ago were like, this is where it's going to go. But it's like, once you Invent the thing, TikTok just needs you to act. Like, TikTok needs you to act to get the most eyes, to keep the most people on the app. TikTok's not helping you get to your fans, to you. They're helping you keep fans on the app. I don't know how to navigate it. I don't. I wouldn't know how to advocate if I didn't have money. I'm just making an album, putting it out. And again, caveat. I ain't pure. I ain't the most. I only make music because I'm the most moralistic. No, it's like, I. I don't. I mean, we're drawn. We're supposed to talk. It is what it is. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't. I don't. I don't know how to. You're just gonna have to create really thick skinned motherfuckers in the future because it's only gonna get worse. So maybe this will breed a bunch of people who like naturally in the response of over criticalism by every comment. Maybe the generation next to her would be totally fucked from social media with self image and all that stuff. Or it would breed like really resilient, like, I don't give a shit that you said I was that Alice.
- [124:57]
A
They follow the culture or they're the counterculture.
- [125:00]
B
You drop a song and a motherfucker is filming themselves as someone is watching them film themselves to react to them filming themselves. Why are we making music? Like, it's almost as if the people trying is just raw content for these people who just want to be seen on the Internet to use as a tool for their channel to blow up.
- [125:30]
A
It's a human centipede where everyone's attached to the person before them. It's like a.
- [125:35]
B
You drop a song and a motherfucker's like, watch me listen. Why the fuck would I watch you listen? I don't even. I don't know, dude. I don't know. You know what, I could be wrong sometimes. I like watching people listen to an album that I love. Cause I'm like, wow, you're gonna experience it the way that I did. And I like, this is a great album. I can't wait to see what you think about it. Dad listens to Nirvana for the first time. Like, those are cool. I don't like, mind them. But in general though, the whole over scrutiny of like 100 comments and 20 of them are bad. And then it did, you know, always.
- [126:07]
A
Used to have this though with music critics. But it would have been in magazines.
- [126:09]
B
And stuff like that for my shit. Or just like in general, general, you.
- [126:13]
A
Go back a couple of decades that would have.
- [126:15]
B
Yeah, but it's like if, if the, the newspaper of the New York Times just says like the Beatles, Sgt. Peppers, overindulgent and slop of a mess and whatever the New York Times said it people read wasn't like Taylor Swift, Life of a showgirl. Okay? Now it's not just the New York Times. And then people talk about it for two days. It's here's the dissertation as to why that this album felt redundant and malignant and not in the. I found it to be the exact opposite given its sweet nature and da da da da. By the way, buy my protein shake. It's like it's. Everybody is like a. People are weighing in to such a degree that artists have to become a sensei at just being like the chips are going to fall where they fall. I cannot be affected by that.
- [127:04]
A
Everybody needs a mindfulness practice. What did you make of the reaction to Taylor Swift's album? I don't think that I've seen a public reaction to that. Political commentators giving their thoughts.
- [127:15]
B
Were they?
- [127:16]
A
Oh yeah, yeah. There was no one that was beyond. It was honestly the fact that Bernie Sanders and Donald Trump didn't do reaction videos to it. In fact, Trump might. Did Trump say something about the Taylor Swift?
- [127:29]
B
I feel like he did.
- [127:30]
A
I feel like he did say something about it.
- [127:32]
B
What was the general gist of the.
- [127:35]
A
The.
- [127:35]
B
The discourse? Was it split Discourse?
- [127:37]
A
Oh, I certainly split. I think a couple of things that were interesting that people picked up on. One was you used to never be able to criticize a Taylor Swift song or album without Swifties calling for your head.
- [127:50]
B
Okay.
- [127:51]
A
And the fact that this time criticisms were put out and the Swifties didn't do that was seen as indicative that even her most ardent fans realized that this might not have been the thing. Whatever.
- [128:05]
B
It's like the inside of the box is the inside of the box which brings the inside of the box. It's a fucking endless fucking spiral Christmas. The fans non response to the criticism was indicative of what we might believe to be. I'm not kidding.
- [128:17]
A
That was like a big. That was a big talking point. We're three levels of derivative away from what the actual initial piece of content is now.
- [128:26]
B
Fully vulnerable and transparent. The only clip I saw was over my wife's shoulder. She was scrolling through and somewhere on some sort of Entertainment Tonight or something, it was her saying I'm not the art police and I like it. And like kind of just like leave it at that. And I thought that was pretty cool. That was the, that was the whole my level of receiving discourse of like what that was. I listened to it. I listened to it and I have my opinions musically on. I can get, I can get into the minutiae of like what I really thought about the wine as it was being stomped on the grapes, like for sure. But I don't know how like a 14 year old feels about it or like how it relates to the zeitgeist of her applying to her relevancy. I don't know. I genuinely did not take enough inventory to know. I just know what I thought about the album when I listened to it in my car.
- [129:10]
A
What did you make of the album?
- [129:11]
B
I liked it. I enjoyed it. I think she's a great songwriter.
- [129:15]
A
What a great opinion.
- [129:16]
B
I liked it. I don't know.
- [129:18]
A
Or you could have said, yeah, it wasn't for me.
- [129:22]
B
Some songs were. Some songs weren't. Like 100% of the albums I listened to. Very rarely across the board am I, like, stopping an album. And I'm like, dog, the whole thing was. Taylor Swift must be kidding. Like, I'm like, no. Like, the second pre on that third song was pretty sick. I could probably take something from that. And that's it. Max Martin's a genius, man. Taylor Swift knows how to write the shit out of song. I wonder what she means by this. I don't agree with that. I'm not like, I don't agree with that. Max Martin's a genius. Make sure everyone knows how I feel about it. I know how I feel about it because I fucking listen to it myself. I don't need you to know that. I thought that I listened to it. It's like. But that's what my. I think Tails has been Olympic for a long time. And the crazy part is she writing them too. She's writing them. She's good. She's good. And that type of run. What am I gonna be like? Her fault from Grace should be studied. If people don't like the album. I don't know. I don't look at her that way. I look at her as just like a very high level force. Olympic creative. That's just like. Like, wow. She does it at a really, really high level. And a lot of the songs I end up liking, like, these are catchy. I like this. Catch it on the way to driving my son somewhere in the Kia, kind.
- [130:32]
A
Of going, what's the sound system like in IKEA?
- [130:35]
B
It's pretty great. I paid the extra 15 grand for the deluxe Bose sound system.
- [130:41]
A
This is turning into an Adri fucking kit. I want to talk about the direction of pop music right now. I've seen those videos of ed Sheeran playing 50 songs over four chords. You know, it's the same chord progression of whatever.
- [130:57]
B
Ed is like, mind numbingly talented. It's crazy.
- [131:00]
A
But does that suggest that pop music is formulaic? Now? Where are we at in the arc.
- [131:08]
B
Of what do you consider pop music?
- [131:11]
A
I guess Anything that hits the charts.
- [131:15]
B
Yeah. Formulaic in a sense that, Bro, sometimes I literally just be like. Like, literally in my head, I Like, nothing means anything. Like, it's like, Woody. It's like, defeats the whole person. Podcast. But you're just like, what do you. What do you mean? Like, it's pop music formulaic. It's like the base that's going to pop music is looking to be fed in a way that is not. That might not even necessitate breaking the mold.
- [131:50]
A
Right. It doesn't need to be experimental. It can be predictable. Another way, instead of formulaic might be predictable.
- [131:54]
B
Yes. And some of the best people in the world are the best at taking something that's completely experimental and still creating. Like, if we're all trying to make bikes, you're still trying to make a bike that will last long for you to do the marathon in the country. Pop music, I guess, is just like, the. Most people can ride the bike and enjoy it and whatever. And then there's some people will be like, I drive a motorcycle. Like, you don't even know what biking is like. And it's like, I just like my Huffy Dog. Like, I'm just like, I don't give a. That you're so angry at the fact that I don't. I don't have, like, answers. Like, the older I get, the more I'm like, oh, this is like a whole ton of everything matters and nothing matters. Like, everything matters and nothing matters. Like, those six years while I was gone, I was like, I want hits. I will tap dance for whatever guy that's best friends with the artist that the da da, da da and tell them they're great to just, like, sneak in and do what I got to do, because I don't know how. Where this money's going to come from. Like, I need hits. Because songwriters do not get paid. Songwriters do not get paid. They are at the all the way. The. Whatever the bottom of the barrel is. Ask who's in the basement and who's got barrels in the basement. The bottom of the barrel. So I was like, I need hits in order to really make a living, to still do what I love to do. So my focus is hits. I wasn't. I had to kind of shut off the reverberation of, like, maybe in six years, I'll do a podcast and talk about it to the top comment to be like, he made a bunch of shitty songs that went number one because pop music sucks. It's like, dude, I don't know. I was Trying to make some big songs, and I tried to get in the best rooms to make a living for my family. And the repercussions of that and what I did with pop music. Now, because I have money, I'm able to drive my taste more. And a lot of the shit I'm making is just, like, cooler and harder and more like, fuck you if you don't like it type of shit. Because, like you said, I'm not as rehearsed. I'm not as whatever. I'm a little bit more on autopilot. I could take a bit more risk.
- [133:52]
A
Dude, what. What is the point of having fuck you money if you never say fuck you?
- [133:57]
B
There's no point. There's no point at all. So you say, like, would you say you're asking a musician. Like, you're asking a musician on why pop music. Can it be formulaic? Is it. It's like, yeah. Formulaic in the idea that. One day when we get to heaven, we're gonna find out that the wall was only five feet around.
- [134:19]
A
What does that mean?
- [134:20]
B
Like, when we get to heaven, like, all of our lives, like, in this realm of trying to make music, like, all of us, like, in our flesh, these magical things happen. And God enters the room, and you make like, John Lennon makes Imagine. And, like, these things happen and they change. Bob Marley happens. And it's this thing that seems bigger than what our flesh is capable of. And as music creators, like, we're gonna find out that the wall, we're in the wrong dimension of it. And we keep trying to pretend like it's not five feet around. And I think a lot of the greats somewhat have an understanding that's like, you don't have to climb so high to try to, like, hey, man, people just want to feel good, you know? Like, when we get to heaven and we have the perspective that's outside of, like, the body trap, get to heaven, next plane, whatever the fuck you believe. Great. We'll. I don't know if pop music's formulaic. I think the world is searching for a lot of the same thing, you know? And then there's the young kid who says, I'm gonna change that thing up there. And then they get too much money and they become depressed, and they have to find out who they really are without the success. It's the same upri. Rising and falling, the same over and over and over again.
- [135:36]
A
Oh, man.
- [135:37]
B
I.
- [135:37]
A
Look, the reason that I keep laughing. We've.
- [135:39]
B
We've. All that from you, says me, is pop music for me, like, yeah, yeah.
- [135:43]
A
You'Re the best sort of guest dude. I flick you once and you're a fucking infinite content, infinite perpetual motion machine that just ticks away, ticked away.
- [135:51]
B
Like, guys like Max Martin, they're concerned about it, feeling really good. I don't think they're in the room with the Weeknd. Max can correct me if I'm wrong. I just don't think Max in the room of the weekend, being like, yeah. I think he's like, this will keep them listening because it feels good to listen to it. And sometimes that might come off as formulaic. Sometimes it might be groundbreaking. Sometimes things work because it resonates within. Like Olivia Rodrigo, Driver's License. That's not formulaic, but people would consider that somehow pop garbage. I don't understand how you would. That's one of the best. To me, that's one of the best written songs in a very long time. It's so antithesis of what pop is. Whatever. But you're still gonna get people being like. Because she's in this sphere of artists. It's pop and formulaic. And what.
- [136:36]
A
Let me give you a.
- [136:37]
B
What is pop? What is cool? What is not? I'm not. I don't know.
- [136:40]
A
Let me give you an insight that I've played with for a long time. There's a guy called Jack Butcher who made Visualize Value. He was a graphic artist for a very long time, and then he started creating graphic representations of quotes and concepts. Now, you'd think as a graphic artist, what you traffic in are fonts and colors and design. There's a million different degrees of freedom. But he put constraints in. He said, it's only ever gonna be white on black. It's gonna be geometric shapes, and it's gonna be one font. What that meant was his constraint bred creativity.
- [137:11]
B
Absolutely.
- [137:12]
A
And I think about this, which is.
- [137:14]
B
Why, to me, like, Ocarina of Time or Toy Story or, like, the staples of creative genius were because of the constraints of what it was like. Now they drop games and it's like, it's too good. Like, I don't even want it to look this real. And I don't want to, like, pay my taxes inside of a video game. It doesn't need to be like life. It was so removed from life that it. Yes, yes. The constraints that the Nintendo 64 had is what burst Ocarina of Time because they had to trudge through the limitations that they had, which forced them to do really smart things to make the mountains look bigger in the background without Doing bandwidth and shit.
- [137:52]
A
What is it that people care about the most? Right? And for instance, like the analogy that we're talking about here, let's say that you could only use four chords for the rest of time. Let's say there was some weird other universe. Only four chords are allowed to be used in every song.
- [138:10]
B
Yeah.
- [138:11]
A
Okay, well, what do we start to play with then? Well, we start to play with the arrangement. We start to play with the complexity. We start to play with the lyrics. We start to play with the. With the musicality of music.
- [138:19]
B
It's a never ending, unfolding, coagulating, resurfacing thing that just keeps eating itself into.
- [138:25]
A
Just what you can end up with. The reason that I thought it was real interesting constraint breeds creativity. So if you do have inside of pop music some constraints, some regular formulas or levels of predictability or expectation or whatever it might be, it means, well, perhaps people begin competing in the area which is the highest contribution, and maybe that's the resonance. How much of the artist's soul is put into it. What's the message of the song? And I thought that was really cool. I was thinking about this on Walk Through Manhattan. I'm like, fuck. Wow. That constraint, that jackpot on himself where he said he wasn't gonna allow himself to use different colors, different shapes, all the rest of the stuff. It meant that the only two things he thought about was what was the quote I'm choosing and how am I representing it? That's it. He had two things to play with. I'm like, well, those are the two highest points of contribution. So perhaps unlimited degrees of freedom.
- [139:18]
B
What do you think are the two highest points of both?
- [139:20]
A
For him? For him it was, what is the quote that he was choosing from a gazillion.
- [139:26]
B
Got it, got it, got it, got it.
- [139:27]
A
That he could choose. What's that? And then the second one was, how is it gonna be represented graphically?
- [139:30]
B
And he believed that to be his highest points.
- [139:32]
A
Those were the highest points of contribution. Like, I can have all the colors in the world and the different fonts and all the rest of the stuff. And I think the same thing can be true of something like music, where you have an infinite number of ways that we can represent this. But perhaps if you bring the constraints in, you focus on what do people care about the most? And where do I get lost in the source?
- [139:53]
B
Utility. Utility. What's the utility of this? Are we making a song? Sometimes? Sometimes it'll be an hour in. You're like, are we just making a song? Because we're making one. What are we doing here? What's the purpose here? Where does this get played? Who's going to listen to this? Who's gonna like that? It does come into your mind lately, Lately I've just been, I can only stomach making something that I'm just like, I will listen to this in my free time. There's been other times where I haven't. There's just other times where I just haven't. I've just gone along with who's in the room. Whatever gets the cut and their fans will like it and it's big and it's just like whatever. And I can use my talents to kind of treat it like a day at work. And making X amount of dollars off of just me spending eight hours by helping this person do this thing. It's like cool. But lately it's tough for me to feel for some reason six years ago when I was making hits, I just wanted hits. And it excited me, didn't I just wanted to figure out the code to get to the top of radio with the biggest artists with the thing. And then that becomes just like everything else. It all becomes disenchanting. It's like the artist thing. I'm walking away and then I just want hits. And then when I just want hits, I made enough money to where I'm like, I'm not interested in making hits right now. I want to make an album now. Make an album and go play Forest Hills. And that's really interesting.
- [141:06]
A
So now what's interesting to you now?
- [141:13]
B
Shutting off as many things on the outside world as possible and making something that I am 15 year old John, going batshit crazy about in my car and then maybe, maybe again bringing that to the world one more time. That's what's really interesting to me right now. It's just like shutting down. It's like open eyes. Wake up coffee. Music, music, music, music. Music. Music kids go to sleep, wake up. Music kids get music, kids go to sleep, wake up. And it's been an interesting, it's been interesting to see what artists have just like came into my universe from me just doing that because now I'm sending out songs that I'm like, I didn't even consider this, this, this and this. But somehow that somehow makes it more interesting for artists of different artistic calibers and how the world views them and blah blah, blah, blah blah. I don't know shit about shit. I really love what I do. I really love what I do. So right now taking the necessary steps Whether that be living healthily, living Olympically processing drama in order for my balance to not take too much out of me. That's what I'm. What I'm enjoying right now is enjoying myself.
- [142:28]
A
I'm so happy for you, man.
- [142:29]
B
Thank you.
- [142:30]
A
I'm so happy for you.
- [142:32]
B
Thank you. I really, I appreciate that deeply.
- [142:35]
A
And you did it all from Long Island.
- [142:37]
B
Yeah. And are there days where you want to strong on the perspective and you don't feel like you're getting the. Just do it comes and goes. It comes and goes. But it, But a normal life is a great life. I'm positive of it. Because in the details is where you find infinity. Infinity's in the details. It's not in the. It's not, it's just like not in the headline. It's this. It's just not. So you see, like, seem like I live a very odd. Me and my wife talk about it a lot. We are smack dab in the middle of regular life and we're also smack dab in the middle of not. Like there's no. And I'm not even sure that what I'm doing is the right way to live. I just know that I'm. I'm happy in an overarching sense. Not every day is perfect at all. But. When you almost get wrapped into something and almost lose it all, like going to get smoothies with your kids is like. It's hilarious. The jokes, the development, the way that they see life, the things that they trust you to say that just like, man, if I would have just like lived for me. What a bummer. What a bummer. I know a lot of that got it. Didn't turn, didn't fill the hole. But the industry, I know it's the age old archetype, but you'll be different because your message is the most important. So of course you're going to sacrifice a little bit of family time and a little bit of social time and a little bit of health right now. And of course you're going to do that because what you have to say when you get your message out into the world and that's what they tell you and that's the temptation. That's the thing. And then when you get there, you've made so many fucking sacrifices to get there that you're not even the person who began to be in the first place. It's like I have to become the, I don't know, like metaphorical president. But in order to become the president, of course I'm gonna Have to slide some money here and do this in here. Because my burn my life down. My goal is the noble one. So me doing the wrong thing, what's immediately wrong in my present to get to there is the sum of all games.
- [145:12]
A
It's like that was something that I considered. You had this eye opening moment when you realized how much you're getting screwed on your deal. And from that, I don't want to tour no more. But would you actually even want to tour as a new father if a touring deal was the most perfect you could?
- [145:32]
B
Oh, they put it on the table right after four Silas. They were like, they the proverbial. They were like, holy. We didn't know he was gonna sell it out in three hours. We didn't know that it would stream this way. It would chart on Spotify, blah, blah. We had no idea. They put in front of me, they put in front of me like, multi, multi, multi, million dollar forty day. Just in case you want to see it. I just looked at it as like, I looked at it like a joke. I just looked at it like, no way. My. It's like a guy like Ed or like certain artists you have conversations with, they live to be on stage and it brings them a lot of joy, bringing people joy in that way. You know, like. Like Ed is just like. He lives and breathes by playing his guitar and singing and being like playing stadiums and that. That brings his life so much joy that it's worth putting in the effort with his children to do that because it's so important to him. It's just not that important to me. People like the shows and they like when I'm on stage and I have fun and it's my adrenaline pumps. But I don't like the come down. I don't like the two days of staring at the ceiling of being like, what drug did I just take? I don't like the drug. The drug's not. It's not. It doesn't feel normal for me and I don't know how to regulate that. You do enough shows and you learn how to like, not give it everything. I'm on stage losing my fucking mind, and then by the time I get off stage, I'm reeling for two days. I don't enjoy it. I barely enjoy the album release process. I don't like going into this thing where it's like, you're about to release this thing and this podcast is coming out and will you get clipped and will it become this thing that's. I don't enjoy Any of that. That's not. None of that is like. It's not exciting to me. But I'm lit up when someone plays a. Just a mean honking chord over just some ill fucking drums and I'm just like, I could just do this for the rest of my life. This is great. There's other stuff that comes with it because you have to make a living and your relevancy and play the game. Play the game to some degree because you can't abandon the game completely. That's just like a young again. That's me at a young age. I'm burning the whole thing down. It doesn't work that way. For me at least.
- [147:38]
A
Nice pipe dream.
- [147:39]
B
Nice pipe dream. Not possible. But yeah, it's. I love what I do. I really do love what I do. The Tauren, to answer your question, I don't enjoy it. I don't even enjoy. I don't even really enjoy, like the fanfare or the praise. I don't. I don't like it.
- [148:07]
A
How's it feel?
- [148:13]
B
You know, it's like a selfish thing. You want it how you want it. It's like, dude, listen to my music and be affected by it and, like, think I'm the greatest. But, like, don't like, put too much pressure on me because, like, I'm not that. Like, it's not that serious. But it is very serious. But it's not very serious, but it is very serious. And I was like, what? How to even. How to even operate in it? I still have no idea. No idea. Well, I have an idea because I know that if you put a seven million dollar tour in front of me, it ain't 40 million. Or if you put a 70, I'm like, I'm good because I just know myself at this point. I've walked away long enough to be like, finally I'm back and they're accepting me and I could go on this sold out tour if they want me. It's like, dude, I made an album about being a dad to three boys. Like, I wasn't trying to apply to everybody.
- [149:04]
A
Can you imagine playing that live? Being like, I'm working really hard as a dad, but not for the next 39 days. Thank you. Coming to the opening night.
- [149:14]
B
Honest to the Lord, that is the conundrum of my existence. That is the conundrum.
- [149:18]
A
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So just to give you a little bit of insight there, you know Aaron Gillespie from Under Oath. He's the drummer and singer from Under Oath Metal Bands.
- [149:28]
B
I know Under Oath. I Don't know.
- [149:30]
A
He's the drummer singer from that he struggled a lot, struggles a lot with performance anxiety, anxiety generally. I think he said on the pod that he's been to like the emergency room hundreds of times while he's been on tour. He's adamant he's having a heart attack, health anxiety stuff. And as I was sort of listening to him talk about it and I'm hearing sort of you say the same thing. He has a particular type of obsession which has caused him to get some outcomes that he's not happy with. Having to go off tour to go to an emergency room and telling the nurses what scans to get because it's the same scans that he know that he got last time because he's been so many times, like going to a pub and ordering the usual, despite the fact that he's never been to this hospital before. But he already knows what he needs to prove to himself that he hasn't got the. And I'm like, you do understand that the level of obsession that is tormenting you with regards to your health is the reason that you're in one of the most famous and successful metal bands of all time.
- [150:37]
B
Yes.
- [150:37]
A
And the same thing for you with this.
- [150:38]
B
Yes. I run into all of these reminders every day that feel counterintuitive to ambition, success, whatever. It's almost like this John guy's crazy. He's coming here preaching mediocrity. There's times in my life where I say, I could finish this song today. And I know that so and so needs it and I know I could. This could really be a big win. And da da, da. And it's just, it's just a graduation. It's. It's just Christmas Eve. It's just a random day in July going in the pool and my kids are going there. I'll be three hours late. I run into that a lot where I'm just like, this feels unimportant. But the thing I tell myself in my head, I just go follow that. And a lot of times I'm doing things that don't feel as a father. A lot of times I'm doing things that don't feel. They don't feel fun, they don't feel important. And I don't realize their importance until like 6, 7, 8, 9, 10 months later. So a lot of it's just like kind of feeling out in the dark to like I'm actually walking toward the exact opposite of a self help podcast. I walk toward mediocrity very aggressively because I Find that the nuance inside of the mediocrity gives you a stronger baseline for a longer level of happiness. When your ambition is so, like, I'm not gonna throw any names under the bus of, like, giant athletes or whatever, but the ambition is so obsessive and so whatever. Just look at the fruits of the. Look at the fruits of the thing did.
- [152:08]
A
Ultimately, your career is a marathon, not a sprint.
- [152:10]
B
It has to be. Why do you think every fucking artist goes on a podcast over and over and it's the same story? It's the same story. I was at the height of my career and the loneliest I've ever been. It's like, at a certain point, someone. I might be mildly not too dumb to look at that and just be like, I'm gonna. I'm gonna believe all of them and never look over the fence and never chase after the thing that. No, if I got it, because enough people have told me that it's not the end all, be all.
- [152:43]
A
I'm gonna have to do this. I was. I. I didn't want to have to fucking pull this one out, but I'm gonna have to read you. I'm gonna have to read you an essay. I'm sorry, I. I'm in. Okay.
- [152:55]
B
I'm so in.
- [152:56]
A
Okay, here we go.
- [152:58]
B
Such a good conversation.
- [153:00]
A
I came up with this insight about a year ago, and it's exactly what you've been talking about. And I called it unteachable lessons. Basically, what I realized was that there is a certain category of lesson that no matter how often people learn it, we refuse to be able to hold onto. Yes. I've been thinking about a special category of lesson one, which you cannot discover without experiencing it firsthand. There is a certain subset of advice that for some reason, we all refuse to learn through instruction. Unteachable lessons, no matter how arduous or costly or effortful it's going to be for us to find out for ourselves. We prefer to disregard the mountains of warnings from our elders. Songs, literature, historical catastrophes, public scandals, and instead thinks some version of, yeah, that might be true for them, but not for me.
- [153:51]
B
Absolutely.
- [153:51]
A
We decide to learn the hard lessons the hard way, over and over again. Unfortunately, they all seem to be the big things, too. It's never insights about how to put up level shelves or charmingly introduce yourself at a cocktail party. Instead, we spend most of our lives learning firsthand the most important lessons that the previous generation already warned us about. Things like money won't make you happy, fame won't Fix your self worth. You don't love that pretty girl. She's just hot and difficult to get. Nothing is as important as you think it is. When you're thinking about it. You will regret working too much. Worrying is not improving your performance. All your fears are a waste of time. You should see your parents more. You will be fine after the breakup and be grateful that you did it. It's perfectly okay to cut toxic people out of your life. And even reading this list back and rolling my eyes at how fucking trite it is, these are all basic bitch obvious insights that everyone has heard before. But if they're so basic, why does everyone so reliably fall prey to them throughout our lives? And if they're so obvious, why do people who have recently become famous or wealthy or lost a parent or gone through a breakup start to proclaim these facts with the renewed grandiose ceremony of someone who's just gone through religious revelation? It's also a list of very contentious topics to say on the Internet. If you interview a billionaire who says that all his money didn't make him happy, or a movie star who said that her fame felt like a prison, the Internet will tear them apart for being ungrateful and out of touch. So not only do we refuse to learn these lessons, we even refuse to hear the message from those warning us about them. Even more than that, for every one of these, if I think a bit deeper, I can recall a time, including right now, where I convinced myself that I'm the exception to the rule. That my particular mental makeup or life situation or historical wounds or dreams for the future render me immune to these lessons being applicable. No, no, no. My inner landscape would be fixed by skirting around the most well known wisdom of the ages. No, no, no. I can thread this needle properly. Watch me dance through the minefield and avoid all the tripwires that everyone else kicks. And then you kick one and you share a knowing luck between another person. The kind that can only occur between two people who have been hurt in exactly the same way. And a voice in the back of your mind will say, I told you so.
- [156:16]
B
To the T. We could have saved ourselves a whole fucking conversation.
- [156:22]
A
I love it.
- [156:23]
B
That's exactly, bro. I could never have related with something more in my entire life. It's like the GR is the dead man, the grass ain't greener. Like, hey man, being present is really good. Like you don't know until you got like, I give up artistry and I'm walking away from it to be to Be. It's like, wow, I didn't even need it in the first place. Thank God I stripped that of myself.
- [156:45]
A
Dude, I love the fact that you are a this weird role model for both ends of the fucking extreme. For the complete dedication, purest art form going forward. And also winning in the weeds of taking your kids to the ice cream to get a fucking like, what's that fucking ice shit that everyone on Long island eats?
- [157:08]
B
Italian ice?
- [157:09]
A
Yeah, Italian ice. Yeah, yeah, that's it.
- [157:10]
B
Why'd you gotta throw Italians in there like that? He did the British thing.
- [157:16]
A
Oh, well, I better tell you about these. I think it's like a French ice or something like that. Yeah, exactly. But I think it's really cool, man. I think that you are, without knowing it, like, very on the nose of the zeitgeist of where people are moving. You said before, I think that fathers are important. I think the fathers are going to be increasingly important as we move through the future. And also might be one of the most culturally out of touch people that's been on the podcast. And you know when two of your different friends tell you, hey man, you gotta watch this new series and they don't know each other and they didn't coordinate to do it, and you go, whoa. Or two people say, have you checked out the new fucking Sleep Token record? Or whatever the fuck? And you're like, I should probably pay attention to that because people are.
- [158:03]
B
A lot of people are telling me.
- [158:04]
A
Yeah, yeah, two independent people came up with the same realization. You came up with unteachable lessons. You had some other name for it in your mind. I wrote that essay a year ago. There's probably something there. I feel like there's something there. The fact that you, Mr. Fucking Faraday Cage, sterile laboratory of music production and child rearing, have arrived at the realization, I think fatherhood's important. I think you win in the weeds of life. I think that normality and boring victories and mundane successes day to day are where the juice is to be squeezed from.
- [158:47]
B
Absolutely.
- [158:49]
A
I think the fact that you have done that and if you look at the zeitgeist, that they're pointing in the same direction too. That people are like, dude, the glitz and the glamour and chasing, all of that stuff is becoming gauche. It's becoming cringe, it's becoming an ick, it's becoming shallow. It is in a way that maybe it didn't previously.
- [159:08]
B
Yep.
- [159:09]
A
I think that suggests that you're onto something, man.
- [159:11]
B
Which also takes me like. And again, last things just I totally agree. The zeitgeist is the. There's just a level of consciousness that seems like if I. If I'm conscious like that, then we are all connected. Then. Then like if I feel that way, chances are a lot of other people might feel that way. In the depths of myself, it was songwriting. I recognize that when I identify something deep inside myself, I say, open. Hold onto that one. And try to always hold onto the way that that felt. Because you might be able to put that in something to then deliver it to the world. Because you're human just like everybody else.
- [159:43]
A
That's why when you start to doubt yourself, it's so dangerous if you start to caveat for other people. That little whisper. Rick Rubin calls them whispers, right? Or my therapist said, pay attention to fleeting thoughts. You're like, oh, hold on. Yes, come back. Yes, let's have a little listen to that. And that's where. Oh, you see?
- [160:03]
B
Yes.
- [160:04]
A
He sees me.
- [160:05]
B
Yep. Holy, dude. The. The consciousness of it all. It almost feels like the times are. Times are coming to a tie. A tied up end. I don't know what that means. It's just that and maybe, you know, nuclear war was always a threat and all this different stuff, but in my deep in my gut somewhere, it feels like the bedrock of reality is starting to like, crack open. Like, is school good? What'? College? Who's the president? What's going on? Do we trust the government? I don't know. But it's like coming to this thing because everything's being recorded and truth is quickly getting, you know, thrown to the top of the pile because of our access to it, that. You're right, there is some sort of consciousness that's moving in a direction that. I don't know, hopefully it's toward a.
- [160:55]
A
Honestly, dude, as long as you know.
- [160:57]
B
What I want to return to. I appreciate you giving me the freedom to even feel this comfortable to have this conversation by the end of our conversation. But I almost like want to go back to being stupid because the dumber I stay, the larger and more aware I am of like, in my happiness to some degree. And I don't mean willful ignorance. I don't mean ignoring problems and not addressing things and pretending like things don't exist. Just. I don't know. It felt good to make it. To make that song or, I don't know, like one song, one show. It's like, I don't know. It just felt right with me. It felt right. Well, you're stupid. You didn't get 7 million dollar deal from your 30, tore your back, dude. People listening to you. The whole world wants you. You're, you're dumb. It's like I just like, I'm think, I'm like, I'm starting, I'm dumb. I'll just be over here just like in my dumbness, doing nothing, having a popsicle on a Tuesday with my boys. I just can stick to dumb because I think dumb's been work mundane and dumb has really saved my life. It's really helped me out. Sitting with the uncomfortability of the things that you don't want to touch, slowing it down. And in the dumbness you end up, you end up coming into grips with that monster. You end up, you end up. Things kind of just worked out. I've smarted myself into being so stupid. I'm like the smartest dumb person ever. I'd rather be like the dumbest smart person. Willfully letting go of like the wisdom. I feel like the more like insane wisdom I get, the more I'm like.
- [162:34]
A
Okay, I need to do a bit on you that most people on the Internet will know, but given you're not on the Internet, you wouldn't have seen it. Do you know what the midwit meme is? Midwit, midwit meme. Okay, so imagine a bell curve that you've got here and on the left hand side you have a meme of a guy who looks.
- [162:50]
B
Will people not believe that? I don't know what that is like? Is it that popular?
- [162:54]
A
Probably not, no, no. I think it's a justifiable level of ignorance.
- [162:56]
B
Okay. The rest I can't speak.
- [163:00]
A
No, no, no, no, no, you're hopeless. Outside of that left hand side guy that looks a little bit like a caveman, big brow and he's sort of stupid like that. And then at the top of the bell curve, which is where most people are, you have this sort of screaming, raging, overcomplicated optimizer person. And then on the right hand side you have this guy that looks like a Jedi with his hood up. And the meme, the joke is that the guy on the left and the guy on the right always agree, they always come to the same conclusion. And it's the person in the middle who overcomplicates everything.
- [163:29]
B
I love that.
- [163:29]
A
So for example, I love that. How do I build muscle, eat protein, lift weights, eat protein, lift weights. I must ensure that my pre digestive way is consumed within a 30 minute window from a grass fed, grass sourced, non GMO. Like right, okay, yes. And for this, the everybody that is every guy in the middle is a guy on the left trying to be the guy on the right. You cannot be the guy on the right, okay? There's no way to become the Jedi. You can only be the guy on the left. So question to ask yourself is, what would the guy on the left do? The guy on the left, Tuesday afternoon, we should get lollipops as opposed to what is the most optimal way for me to ensure. Because that is you trying to be the guy in the right and ending up being the guy in the chase. Have you still got that? Can you lift it up? Okay, so this is what we're talking about. So guy on the left, Guy in the middle, guy on the right. You can't be the guy in the right. It's only possible to be the guy on the left. Yeah.
- [164:36]
B
And it's almost like the more you're okay with being the guy on the left, you're kind of like it all just. It all just ends up being alright. Hey, I don't know, man.
- [164:45]
A
Dude, I love it. John Bellion, ladies and gentlemen. Dude, I've enjoyed today so much that.
- [164:50]
B
That means a ton to me over the years. Like I try to give people their flowers if I ever meet them and say if I ever come across that guy, I'll let him know, first day, whatever. I just think it's very, very noble. I think it's very. I wish a lot more people thought the way that you did in what they decide to help people with and how they decide to help people. And I've seen you refine it over the years because I've been a fan for a super long time, so I'm in, man.
- [165:16]
A
I appreciate you.
- [165:17]
B
I appreciate you having. And thanks for. Dude, thanks for doing this all the way where I live.
- [165:20]
A
I got you, man. I got you. Until next time.
- [165:22]
B
Yes, sir.
- [165:25]
A
When I first started doing personal growth, I really wanted to read the best books. The most impactful ones, the most entertaining ones, the ones that were the easiest to read and the most dense and interesting. But. But there wasn't a list of them. So I scoured and scoured and scoured and then gave up and just started reading on my own. And then I made a list of 100 of the best books that I've ever found and you can get that for free right now. So if you want to spend more time around great books that aren't going to completely kill your memory and your attention just trying to get through a single page, go to chriswillx.combooks to get my list completely free of 100 books you should read before you die. That's chriswillx.com books.