Modern Wisdom #1031 — Macken Murphy — 18 Harsh Realities of Modern Dating
Release Date: December 11, 2025
Host: Chris Williamson
Guest: Macken Murphy
Episode Overview
In this engaging and data-rich episode, Chris Williamson welcomes evolutionary biologist and behavioral scientist Macken Murphy to dissect some of the toughest, strangest, and most controversial truths about modern dating and sexuality. Together, they explore findings from scientific studies on mate preference, physical attractiveness, body counts, the impacts of sociosexuality, and the rapidly shifting landscape of relationships in a more equal world. The conversation unpacks everything from penis size anxiety to the evolution of mate preferences among high-achieving women—with wit, empirical rigor, and a refreshing willingness to tackle internet myths head-on.
Key Discussion Points & Insights
1. Penis Size Preferences and the Reality Gap
- Murphy explains the gold standard Prowse study on women's penis size preferences, highlighting that most men overestimate their own size by about an inch or 20% (02:30).
- Actual averages:
- Erect average: ~5.16 inches; women’s ideal: ~6.3 inches (95th percentile, same rarity as being 6’2”) (03:49).
- Circumference average: 4.59 inches, women’s ideal: 4.8–5 inches.
- Most notable: “Most women had never seen a penis as large as their preferred ideal—they’re idealizing something rarer than their experience.” (06:08, Murphy)
Memorable Quotes
- Murphy, 02:11: “Men are saying that they’re a certain size and so women are maybe learning about sizes through that. We’ve got a penis inflation effect.”
- Williamson, 06:14: “It’s also not fun if you’re a woman. You’re cursed to almost never encounter the ideal you want.”
Noteworthy Analogy
- The ideal vs. real penis size is compared to women’s ideal preference for a 6’2” man (height that most have never dated, yet cite as ideal) (06:14–06:48).
2. Mate Preferences and Realistic Trade-Offs
- Ideal preferences often don’t match reality; most people settle within a range of “acceptable enough” rather than the absolute ideal (13:03).
- 27% of women had broken up with a man at least partially over size, but the vast majority did not find it a dealbreaker (07:00).
3. Attractiveness Extremes & Consequences
- There are hard upper bounds (pain/discomfort) but more latitude on the “undercooked” side for size and other physical attributes (09:04).
- For women, “there’s more forgiveness for being under the average than being way over—the extremes have real limits.”
4. Body Fat & Muscularity: The Ollie Murs Twitter Poll Fallout
- Social media poll on whether women prefer lean, muscular men or less lean “dad bods” created controversy (14:56).
- Findings: Men overrate the benefits of extreme leanness; women prefer slightly higher body fat—optimal is ~13–15% for men, which is lean but not stage-ready (18:26).
- Murphy, 22:10: “If you just ask, which guy looks like he’d win in a fight? Usually, that’s the physique women prefer.”
- Men judge attractiveness by their own competitive male standards (bodybuilding culture), not women’s evolved mate preferences (25:57).
5. Formidability vs. Sexual Attractiveness
- Williamson notes male preferences for extreme leanness reflect ingrained intrasexual status competition—not cross-sex attractiveness (25:56).
- Murphy connects this to music: metal guitarists’ in-group competition vs. mainstream male guitar’s appeal to women (42:46).
6. Mate Preferences: Beauty, Chastity, and Sociosexuality
- Cross-cultural studies (Buss, Stewart-Williams) show men say chastity matters, but in practice, physical attractiveness dominates (49:13).
- Men report aversion to very high or zero sexual experience (“body count”), but within normal ranges, beauty carries more weight than sexual history.
- Williamson, 54:37: “I can’t get over the beauty over chastity thing—lower than most assume.”
7. Body Count, Relationship Outcomes, and Predictors of Infidelity
- Higher body counts = higher risk of infidelity and lower long-term satisfaction for both men and women; effect is significant but often misrepresented as women-only (66:12).
- “Above 5” body count groups had double the infidelity rate of “below 5” groups, effect exists for men and women alike (67:33).
- Recency and context matter: a woman (or man) who’s had seven partners in their 30s, mostly via long-term relationships, is viewed differently than a 19-year-old with seven one-night stands (76:43).
Quotes
- Williamson, 68:27: “The only explanation is that someone’s gotten it out of their system… but imagine if I said that with alcohol or with positive things—is it really a protective effect?”
- Murphy, 69:51: “The single biggest predictor of extramarital sex is premarital sex—it’s sex predicting sex.”
8. Do Men Care About a Woman’s Career?
- Viral take: “Men don’t care about your career.”
- Murphy: Data shows that successful men prefer successful women—higher status men marry higher-status women. But career is a lower to moderate priority, behind disposition/personality and attractiveness (83:49).
- High-status men typically have smaller age gaps in marriage, seek partners who understand and complement their lifestyle (~87:00).
9. Socioeconomic Shifts and Hyperandry
- The bottom 40% of men and top 20% of women: Women are more likely to “marry down” economically—termed “hyperandry” (106:08).
- Adaptational lag: Strategic (behavioral) adjustment outpaces preference adaptation. Status-reversed couples show higher rates of conflict (domestic violence, dissatisfaction) during this cultural transition (114:58).
- Murphy is “cautiously optimistic” about eventual adaptation, pointing to anthropological precedent for flexible roles (117:01).
10. Obesity, Mating Markets, and Attractiveness
- Williamson posits: Has civilization made itself too unattractive to mate, due (in part) to obesity? Murphy sees some possible contributing role, but singles out social/socioeconomic restructuring as more central (124:56).
- Marriage rates down, but divorce rates also down: “People who get married today are on track to have a divorce rate like the 1950s.” (125:22)
11. Attractiveness Imbalances and Relationship Tension
- More attractive people generally get more benefits (attention, mates, mate provisioning), but high attractiveness can create mate-guarding, dissatisfaction, and higher risk of certain conflicts; rarity plays a key role (134:11).
- Optionality distress: highly attractive individuals face more temptation and “optional distress”—may be less satisfied (135:49).
12. Non-Monogamy: Gendered Asymmetries
- Men: higher desire for variety, but greater aversion to partner’s sexual infidelity (“disaster mode for a man”) (146:41).
- Women: emotional infidelity is more threatening, but can only be pregnant by one man at a time (141:09).
- Who “wins” in non-monogamy? High mate value men benefit most, sometimes at great cost to themselves or female partners; nuanced by sociosexuality and personality (144:45).
13. The “Rich Gay Uncle” Hypothesis and Kin Selection
- Murphy details the evolutionary theory that gay uncles may indirectly propagate genes by investing in nieces/nephews (151:03).
- It has limited empirical support in the West, stronger among the Fafafine of Samoa, but probably doesn’t explain most Western homosexuality (154:49).
Notable Quotes
- Murphy, 22:10: “If you just say, which guy looks like he’d win in a fight? Usually, that’s the physique women prefer.”
- Williamson, 91:18: “A relationship is essentially one long podcast… try to have the most generative conversation you can—for 20,000 hours.”
- Murphy, 120:57: “For men and women, the options are as with all our ancestors: adapt or die, bro.”
- Williamson, 68:27: “The only explanation is that someone’s gotten it out of their system… but imagine if I said that with alcohol or with positive things—is it really a protective effect?”
- Murphy, 146:41: “Getting cuckolded is true disaster mode for a male, whereas for a female, technically your long-term mate could be out and about without too much going wrong for you.”
Timestamps for Key Segments
- Penis size preference realities: 00:09–07:00
- Ideal vs. practical mate selection: 13:03–14:30
- Ollie Murs transformation debate: 14:56–22:03
- Formidability vs. leanness, status competition: 22:10–28:00
- Attractiveness, satisfaction, and cheating: 49:13–52:47, 66:12–71:11
- Body count and relationship outcomes: 66:03–70:03
- High status dating and career preferences: 79:16–91:18
- Hyperandry and status-reversed couples: 106:08–117:01
- Obesity, attractiveness, and culture: 122:02–125:22
- Non-monogamy gendered stresses: 138:10–150:30
- Rich gay uncle hypothesis: 151:03–154:49
Episode Tone & Style
- Scientific, playful, and myth-busting.
- Both host and guest blend analytical rigor with humor, directness (“adapt or die, bro”), and occasionally spicy banter.
- Willingness to challenge internet “red pill” orthodoxies and dig into the granular, sometimes uncomfortable data on sex, relationships, and mate choice.
Final Thoughts
This episode is a masterclass in modern sexual psychology and evolutionary biology’s relevance to dating. It debunks common myths, grounds its advice in robust studies (often with unexpected twists), and brings complex social dynamics down to earth. Both hard truths and hopeful nuance are in ample supply.
Recommended for:
Anyone navigating today's dating landscape, students of evolutionary psychology, and anyone frustrated with simplistic dating advice online.
Further Content & Macken Murphy’s Work
Find Macken on TikTok, Twitter, and his podcast “Species.”
For more: search @mackenmurphy or visit his TikTok for sharp, data-driven, and entertaining takes on sex, relationships, and human behavior.
Compiled by Modern Wisdom Podcast Summaries, 2025