Modern Wisdom #1032 — Joshua Citarella: The Dark Subcultures of Online Politics
Host: Chris Williamson
Guest: Joshua Citarella
Date: December 13, 2025
Overview
This episode explores the transformation of youth political subcultures in the digital age, the emergence of radical online movements, meme-driven ideology, the shifting Overton window, and the interplay between aesthetics, irony, and genuine belief. Joshua Citarella—a researcher, artist, and chronicler of Internet political subcultures—explains how online spaces have deeply shaped modern politics, offering early insight into now-mainstream trends like right-wing populism and eco-extremism. The conversation flows from memetic analysis and the radicalization pipeline to the challenges of building effective coalitions in a fragmented media and political landscape.
Key Discussion Points & Insights
1. Joshua's Background and Research Approach
- Joshua's Identity: Artist evolved into Internet culture writer and podcaster ("Doom Scroll").
- Early Focus: Ethnographic study of teenagers' memetic and political activity—initially niche, now mainstream.
- Primary Case Study: 2018’s Politogram: The Post Left on adolescent, meme-based political discourse.
Memorable Quote:
"I used to publish to an audience of like 10,000 dedicated intellectuals and now it's like 100,000 weekly viewers... very, very different game."
— Joshua Citarella [00:38]
2. How Internet Subcultures Forecast Social Change
- Online Radicalization: Joshua tracked young users’ journeys from meme posting through to small, sometimes extremist, Discord communities.
- Early Detection: "Political trend casting" — Identifying which niche memes and subcultural ideas might scale to societal influence.
- Examples: Post-left memes that were once fringe now reach millions.
Memorable Quote:
"If you look at those like early...primary sources of people who were meme makers, like teenagers who are shitposting on the bus to school. There are early inklings of how our media environment exists now."
— Joshua Citarella [02:10]
- Belief Systems in Motion: Contrary to mainstream narratives, online belief systems and coalitions are fluid — "all belief systems are in motion."
3. The Shift in Political Paradigms among Young People
Timestamps: [04:13] – [16:45]
- Gen Z’s Distinctive Context: Born post-2008 into a world without the ‘liberal democratic consensus’ of the '90s and early 2000s; exposed to infinite information and narratives.
- Referenced Francis Fukuyama’s “end of history” thesis: Gen Z emerged after this period of ideological consensus.
Memorable Quote:
"You're born into a world that has no political answers for you while you're given the complete archive of the Internet... and to kind of hyperbolically churn these out."
— Joshua Citarella [12:04]
-
Ideological Remixing: Youth political identity resembles a generative adversarial network—experimenting with combinations like "monarcho syndicalism" or "libertarian neo-monarchism" to address contemporary crises.
-
Political Aesthetics as a Game: Political engagement can become ‘collecting ideologies’ like Pokémon—encyclopedic rather than lived or deeply understood.
4. Meme Culture, Irony, and Radicalization Pipelines
Timestamps: [18:33] – [22:00]
- Radicalization Pipeline: The journey from shitposting memes to engagement with radical or extremist politics is nuanced; not all meme creators genuinely believe their content.
- Irony and Gatekeeping: Comedy and irony serve as test-spaces for taboo or transgressive ideas. Over time, irony can give rise to true belief ("irony poisoning").
- Irony Poisoning Explanation [40:16]: Joking about beliefs until they become genuine.
Memorable Quote:
"The type of like in the way that people would autistically approach rate your music, this encyclopedic knowledge bank... then replaces the political engagement with this kind of encyclopedic hobby."
— Joshua Citarella [17:57]
- Media Critique: Mainstream media’s use of the “pipeline” metaphor often misattributes real influence and draws specious links, largely as a reaction to losing their gatekeeper status.
5. Online Politics Coming Offline
Timestamps: [26:13] – [29:53]
- Online to Offline Action: Digital subcultures frequently birth real-world activism (e.g., mutual aid groups, meme campaigns) and even influence elections more effectively than traditional parties.
- Examples: Discord groups organizing food pantries; Destiny’s Twitch community out-canvassing the Democratic Party.
6. Canonization & Influence of Online Political Figures
Timestamps: [29:53] – [37:23]
- Far-Right Figures: Nick Fuentes as a canonical example—origin story post-Charlottesville, crafted to avoid “larpy” aesthetics that alienated mainstream youth.
- Quiet Influencers: Not widely known outside core subcultures but highly impactful: Curtis Yarvin (a.k.a. Mencius Moldbug), Raw Egg Nationalist, Bronze Age Pervert.
- Meme and Narrative Transmission: Memes aren’t just images but units of narrative and ideology, shaping worldviews.
Memorable Quote:
"As silly as that may sound, that is basically the way, after having done many extensive interviews of young people who are politicized...we basically just carry these stories that...piece together into an ideological view of the world."
— Joshua Citarella [38:00]
7. Distinguishing Shitposting from Sincere Extremism
Timestamps: [39:50] – [47:20]
- **Shitposting is cathartic or ironic, not always earnest; some teenagers just want to provoke reactions, akin to “drawing dicks with Sharpies in the school bathroom.”
- Challenge for Journalists: Difficulty distinguishing between adolescent transgression and genuine ideological commitment.
- Online Engagement as Early Warning: Memetic or “compass-etched” activity sometimes forecasts real ideological or societal pivots ignored by mainstream elites.
8. Ascendant Ideologies & Political Realignments
Timestamps: [49:05] – [62:21]
- Current Trends:
- Rejection of militant activist/identity politics, return to social democratic discourse with broad appeal.
- Tension between “network state” libertarians/technocrats vs. resurgent, globally-aware social democracy.
- U.S. and global right-wing populism as backlash against neoliberalism.
- Coalition Opportunities: Anti-establishment sentiment trumps traditional left/right divides, as seen by voters supporting both Trump and Mamdani.
- Strategic Imperative: Need for broad coalition-building across ideological lines.
Memorable Quote:
"A lot of those people now are Trump voters or Marjorie Taylor Greene voters. You know, they're ready to dissent from the status quo and they need to be won over."
— Joshua Citarella [61:53]
9. Horseshoe Theory, Meme Presidents, & the Role of Aesthetics
Timestamps: [62:33] – [65:26]
- Horseshoe Convergence: Extremists from both left and right sometimes overlap on issues (e.g., anti-pharma, Middle East policy).
- Aesthetics as Substance: Online narrative and aesthetics often substitute for policy differences. "Meme President" Trump as the ultimate manifestation of meme-driven legitimacy.
- Targeted Meme Campaigns: “Baking kits” and Discord-organized meme blitzes as a campaign tactic.
10. Masculinity, Alienation, and Young Men
Timestamps: [81:00] – [87:51]
- Left’s Failure with Men: Historical shift from trade union, class-based leftism to identitarian rhetoric has alienated men—especially young men—leading to drift toward other political identities.
Memorable Quote:
"Whatever we have today, that constitutes today's left, take it or leave it. I don't think that thing has room for men. I don't think it has room for much of anybody."
— Joshua Citarella [81:07]
- Personal Experiment: Joshua’s own foray into “hypermasculinity,” from working out to experimenting with Infowars supplements, left his politics mostly unchanged but offered insight into how material policy remains key.
11. Agency, Bootstrapping, and Systemic Reality
Timestamps: [87:51] – [90:00]
- Narratives of Agency: Young men are drawn to bootstraps/agency stories, but new realities—inequality, decline of upward mobility, hollowing out of meaningful jobs—mean systemic answers also appeal.
- Material Analysis: Redistribution, when competitive or cost-saving, can appeal even to rightward-leaning youth.
12. Questions vs. Answers: Research, Suffering, Empathy
Timestamps: [92:34] – [106:45]
- Chris on Chronic Health: Personal health struggles increased empathy and awareness for unequal outcomes, reinforcing his appreciation for the UK’s NHS.
- Joshua’s Reflections: Both agree suffering and struggle can build resilience, but also reinforce empathy for those with different limits or experiences.
13. Purity Spirals, Coalition-Building, and Allowing Open Debate
Timestamps: [109:27] – [112:33]
- Purity Spiral Critique: The left’s tendency to police boundaries and shame “insufficiently pure” members leads to attrition and diminishes coalition possibilities.
- Necessity of Difficult Conversations: Joshua argues that addressing uncomfortable issues (like boys’ declining labor prospects) is essential for building a viable left.
Memorable Quote:
"If we do not allow those conversations to happen, there's no way to build the coalition to get the stuff that I want."
— Joshua Citarella [109:27]
Notable Quotes & Segments
-
On Irony Poisoning:
"Irony poisoning is when you float something that is a joke and then you say, this is not what I really believe, but...a few years later, you kind of like, work your way up to it and you're like, actually, yeah, this is what I believe."
— Joshua Citarella [40:16] -
On Meme-driven Political Realignment:
"Trump himself is maybe one of the greatest posters of all time. I think the power of that is actually very underestimated."
— Joshua Citarella [63:46] -
On ‘Shitposting’ and Adolescent Expression:
"A lot of this early Internet activity is people drawing dicks and Sharpie in the school bathroom..."
— Joshua Citarella [47:35] -
On Cross-Ideological Voter Behavior:
"There is...a non insignificant portion of the population that voted for Trump in 2024 and Mamdani in 2025. Wow, those people exist."
— Joshua Citarella [59:28] -
On Coalition Challenges:
"To get a single payer National Health Service...we're going to need an overwhelmingly broad coalition. A lot of those people now are Trump voters or Marjorie Taylor Greene voters. You know, they're ready...they need to be persuaded."
— Joshua Citarella [61:53]
Timestamps for Key Segments
- Intro & Joshua’s background: 00:00 – 04:13
- Gen Z’s different context and ideology: 11:01 – 16:45
- Irony, memes, and political encyclopedism: 17:57 – 18:33
- Radicalization and pipeline debates: 19:38 – 22:00
- Online subcultures impacting real politics: 26:13 – 29:53
- Nick Fuentes & right-wing meme culture: 29:53 – 37:23
- Memes, shitposting, and irony poisoning: 39:50 – 47:20
- Political realignments and anti-establishment voters: 49:31 – 62:21
- Masculinity, men, and left-wing alienation: 81:00 – 87:51
- Chris on health, empathy, and system-level insights: 92:34 – 106:45
- Purity spirals and left coalition-building: 109:27 – 112:33
Episode Tone
Wry, curious, critically engaged. Chris maintains an inquisitive, slightly irreverent interview style. Joshua’s responses are thoughtful, nuanced, and peppered with real-world online examples and a depth of cultural knowledge. Both challenge mainstream narratives and encourage open debate over stifling ideological purity.
Additional Resources
- Joshua Citarella: Doom Scroll Podcast
- Substack/Patreon links: Joshua's Substack
- Chris Williamson: Modern Wisdom
For anyone interested in the dark, often-overlooked roots of today’s online politics, this episode provides a rich, accessible, and highly relevant overview with plenty of nuance and critical insight.