#1048 - Trevor Wallace - Autism is the New Stolen Valor

Summary

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Modern Wisdom #1048 — Trevor Wallace

Why Autism is the New Stolen Valor
Date: January 19, 2026 | Host: Chris Williamson | Guest: Trevor Wallace

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Episode Overview

In this energetic and introspective conversation, comedian Trevor Wallace joins Chris Williamson to dissect trends in neurodivergence and internet culture, the commodification and fetishization of autism online, the creative life of a touring comic, and the psychology of success in the digital age. They swap stories about comedy, riff on social memes, and get candid about work, balance, insecurity, and the elusive nature of happiness in creative pursuit. The tone is irreverent, quick-witted, and genuine, mixing sharp social commentary with relatable self-deprecation and advice for finding fulfillment.

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Main Themes & Key Topics

1. The Fetishization & “Stolen Valor” of Autism (00:31–10:55)

• Fetishization on Dating Apps:
  • Chris and Trevor riff about swathes of men openly seeking “slightly autistic” women on apps, wondering if it’s a real preference or bandwagoning/meme culture.
  • Chris: “It's more likely that swaths of them are fetishizing neurodivergence.” (03:41)
  • Trevor jokes about “stolen valor” — people co-opting identities (like autism) for clout or to be ‘special’ without genuine struggles.
• Authenticity vs. Memeification:
  • Discussion around the impact of shows like Love on the Spectrum and “Rizz with the Tism” memes. Trevor notes that meme culture has made autism the first neurotype to be widely commodified online.
  • Trevor: “There's people who genuinely have struggles every day about autism, and there's some people who are just like, maybe I'm just autistic... You're using that as a cop out.” (05:40)
• Double Bind in Preferences:
  • Chris highlights how any mention of a preference—either for or against neurodivergence—on apps leads to accusations of “fetishizing” or “exclusionary” (Racetism). “It's really hard to win.” (08:19)

2. The Creative Life, Passion & Obsession (13:21–42:38)

• Obsession vs. Work-Life Balance:
  • Trevor talks about relentless gigging (400+ annual shows), the grind, and how obsession—not discipline—drives top performers.
  • Chris: “Obsession is I can't not do the thing.” (32:05)
  • Trevor: “I find happiness in work... I'm living my dream every day. So why wouldn't I be happy?” (27:32)
• No Gatekeepers, No Excuses:
  • Both praise the democratizing power of the internet for creators and urge acting when inspiration strikes—echoing Naval Ravikant: “Inspiration is perishable. Act on it immediately.” (29:54)
• Viral Success, Vulnerability & Comparison:
  • Trevor describes the psychological whiplash of chasing virality: the casino “chasing the dragon” effect, the burden of expectation, and how prior hits make new efforts stressful rather than liberating.
  • Trevor: “Once you go viral, it's a blessing and a curse because it's like a drug... It's proof that I can do it. How do I keep doing it?” (50:04)
• Acceptance of Uncertainty:
  • Chris and Trevor agree: creative success is nonlinear, the chase doesn’t end, and presence is elusive. Most “golden years” are only recognized in hindsight, despite relentless future-focused anxiety.
  • Chris: “Golden years only exist in the past. Nobody ever believes they're living through a golden era.” (86:51)

3. The Dark Side of Obsession & Social Media Metrics (56:41–115:41)

• Hyper-Focus & Self-Worth Tied to Metrics:
  • Complain about tying self-worth to video performance (“If it does bad, I go, wow, that excitement's now gone... Is that just the same as telling a joke that bombs?” – 107:26)
  • Trevor on compulsive checking: “I refresh 15 minutes later... that's not the mind of a successful CEO.”
• Feedback Loops: Signal vs. Noise:
  • Chris introduces the idea of “signal vs noise” for creators: check performance less frequently, rely more on buffered publishing and delegation to avoid being consumed by random fluctuations.
  • Chris: “You only get signal by reducing how frequently you check and doing it in bigger chunks of time.” (112:37)
• Delegation Anxiety & “Carrying the Boat” Analogy:
  • Both discuss the difficulty in relinquishing control as creative businesses grow, and the tendency to over-identify with every process. “The tools that got you here don't always get you there.” (117:01)

4. Hobbies, Flow, and Meaningful Lives (79:13–83:24, 91:14–94:45)

• Lack of Flow States & Life Satisfaction:
  • Chris laments that modern life erodes flow/hobby time, producing “bullshit jobs” and neuroticism. He urges finding “30 minutes a day” for something that excites you.
  • Chris: “If you don't have at least one thing... it's gonna be really tough to feel like I live a meaningful life.” (79:13)
• Paradox of Choice & Deferred Happiness:
  • The abundance of options leads to perpetual dissatisfaction (“But who's up next?” – 90:49), which invades both dating and career satisfaction.
  • Chris: “Deferred happiness syndrome… you rush through what turns out to be the prelude to your death.” (89:13)
• Enjoying the Present, Recognizing Golden Years:
  • Both repeatedly return to the impossibility of enjoying success in the moment, realizing they only feel its value in retrospect.
  • Trevor: “There's a good chance a lot of people listening are in their golden years, but so stressed about the future they don't realize it.” (86:46)

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Memorable Quotes & Moments

On Obsession vs. Motivation/Discipline:

• Chris [32:05]: “Motivation is, I want to do the thing. Discipline is, I tell myself to do the thing. Obsession is, I can't not do the thing...”

On the Casino/Viral Video Analogy:

• Trevor [50:10]: “It's like they load it up, I think it's rigged. It's a casino... The first time I hit a million views, it was like, how do I beat it? That's not what you should be thinking. You should be like, how can I make something with that same passion?”

On Over-Identification with Metrics:

• Trevor [107:52]: “All this happiness I once had for it, if it does bad... that excitement’s now gone. What is that? Is it the same as telling a joke that bombs?”

On Memes and Autism:

• Trevor [10:24]: “It's like the first human condition that has really been memed... people aren't doing the same for HIV. Get laid with the AIDS, Rizz with the Tism...”

On Recognizing the Golden Years:

• Chris [86:51]: “Golden years only exist in the past. Nobody ever believes they're living through a golden era.”
• Trevor [88:14]: “I don’t feel like I’m in the golden years until five years down the road I’ll be like, dude, that was incredible... but I’m not appreciating because I’m always just head down, what’s next?”

On Delegation & "Carrying the Boat":

• Chris [117:01]: “Let's say you've got a big journey... now you're on land, but you're still carrying a fucking boat. That was a tool you needed for then.”

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Important Timestamps & Segments

• 00:31–03:41: Opening banter; “Slightly autistic” as dating qualifier, the dating app phenomenon.
• 05:40–10:55: “Stolen valor” and the authenticity crisis, meme culture around neurodivergence.
• 13:21–36:20: Trevor’s comedy grind, obsession, creative process, and gatekeeping.
• 50:04–54:54: The “casino” of social media and viral expectations.
• 79:13–83:24: Purpose, meaning, hobbies, and the importance of “flow” moments.
• 86:46–89:13: Why you don’t know you’re in your golden years.
• 94:45–99:23: Analysis paralysis—the curse of choice online and in relationships.
• 107:26–115:21: Metrics, audience reception, feedback, anxiety, and distancing creative self-worth.

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Closing: Final Reflections and Advice

Both Chris and Trevor reflect on the paradoxes of creative life: the necessity of obsession for growth versus its corrosive effect on presence and happiness; the power and peril of social platforms for self-worth; and the wisdom in recognizing that the periods of anonymity and grinding are often the most fulfilling—if only in retrospect.

Trevor Wallace's tour and special: trevorwallace.com

Memorable sign-off:

• Trevor [86:46]: “There’s a good chance a lot of people listening to this right now are in their golden years, but they’re so stressed about the future, they don’t realize it.”

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For newcomers seeking practical advice on fulfillment, creative success, and the weird state of modern identity, this episode is a masterclass in ruthless self-awareness and real talk from two men chasing meaningful lives amidst noise and memes.

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Transcript

[Trevor Wallace]

That's really. How do I. How do I look? Cool. Silence. All right, does anybody give. 19 people on set and everyone's like, I don't want to tell him. It looks like. Yeah, see, there we go.

[Chris Williamson]

Look at this. Yes. Dude.

[Trevor Wallace]

Is that better?

[Chris Williamson]

See, now this is the problem. Now that you've asked for feedback, all that you've got. Yeah. All you've got is, like, neuroticism and judgment.

[Trevor Wallace]

Okay. Yeah. And can you write some better jokes? Outfit?

[Chris Williamson]

Trevor Wallace, welcome to the show.

[Trevor Wallace]

Hey, thanks for having me, Chris.

[Chris Williamson]

Vogue published an article saying having a boyfriend is embarrassing. Now I. Meanwhile, I have one. I figured, meanwhile, men are on dating apps saying that they're looking for a slightly autistic woman. Swaths of men saying they want a girl with a touch of the tism.

[Trevor Wallace]

Okay, I just want the touch. I don't even care about the tism. You know what I mean? Like, if. Whatever they bring to the table. Well, I. You know what it is? Autistic women, like, from my experience, they're just passionate. They're just like. I just. That's all I've ever wanted. Dating somebody is somebody who's passionate about something, whether it's a career or.

[Chris Williamson]

Or.

[Trevor Wallace]

Or, you know, trains, like, whatever you're passionate on. I am passionate for you.

[Chris Williamson]

Well, you were saying that about hot girls that are just good at anything. Chess or DJing or crochet stitching or something. That. That is a. A niche. Yeah, that. I think you're right as well. I think we like anybody that really loves.

[Trevor Wallace]

I just want you to love something.

[Chris Williamson]

Yeah.

[Trevor Wallace]

I don't care what your career is. Just love it.

[Chris Williamson]

Can that be you? Can there's something be you? What if that. What if you are their hobby?

[Trevor Wallace]

A part of it, sure. A part of it, sure. But, like, I've been in relationships where somebody didn't have that.

[Chris Williamson]

That.

[Trevor Wallace]

That void they wanted to fill of, like, love. And you. You almost feel guilty if you're. If you're too passionate. I would come home from, like, a show or filming something, and I had so much fun on this set or filming, and I love it. And then they're like, oh, that's nice. And you're like, here we go again. I mean, can we get her a Zen or something? Like, perk up? Like, what are we? So you almost feel guilty. So, like, I just want to come home and share a communal experience where you're like, how was your day? Oh, I love that I got to do. Blah, blah, blah, blah. I love that I get to do this. So I've, I found that just incredible where you can just both share and not feel this like weird one sided.

[Chris Williamson]

Guilt that I'm doing a thing. You don't have a thing to do.

[Trevor Wallace]

Yeah. Or a thing to do. But they hate it. It's like so many people hate their job, which is totally fine. Like so many jobs suck. But it kind of puts a dampening on the mood if like I'm happy with what I'm doing and then they're like, oh, that's cool. Well, my day.

[Chris Williamson]

Oh God, I wonder whether that's mute. I wonder whether that's most people that. It's kind of tough because not everyone has the luxury of being able to do a job that they love. But pretty much everybody does have the luxury of being able to get a hobby or an interest or a passion that they love.

[Trevor Wallace]

That's the other side of it. So many people hate their job. I have plenty of jobs that I hated. I used to work in a kiosk inside of a Costco. I wanted to unalive myself every day, but the chicken apple sausages samples saved me every single day. Okay, so I've had those jobs where I hate it. But when I was at that job, I would write stand up and that would like make me get through the day. Like that would excite me. So I'd just find the things that would excite me through it. So back to autism. I think whatever your passion is, just be passionate about it. I've, I've, I've had, I've dated people who have had like they've worked in like, like their own, like they make their own clothes or their own thing and I'm like, I'm so happy for that. And when they show me a, a T shirt or something where they stitched a pocket on in the pocket's a denim shirt. Is it going to sell? No, but she loves it and that's what I love.

[Chris Williamson]

Yeah, it's the, some of the feedback on the autistic dating thing. It's possible that some of these men are autistic themselves and merely looking for a like minded partner. But it's more likely that swaths of them are fetishizing neurodiverge autistic sex educator Millie Evans.

[Trevor Wallace]

Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. What is her title?

[Chris Williamson]

Autistic sex educator.

[Trevor Wallace]

Let's check her hard drive. How do you get into that field? How do you go to NYU and be like, okay, hold on. Speaking of trains, let's talk about how they're running them it's also hard to talk about autism when there's so many cars around me right now.

[Chris Williamson]

This is the right location to do it in.

[Trevor Wallace]

Yeah. You got mater from cars behind you. You got everything in here is would if I was teed up, which I might be. I have adhd, I think. I don't know. I did try to take an autism test one day, but it's too many questions, and I think that's my answer.

[Chris Williamson]

I see. Well, look, autistic sex educator. The way that that's framed. Are you somebody who educates autistic people about sex or are you somebody who is autistic that is a sex educator? That. One of my friends is the number one incel researcher on the planet, and he had to re. Change the way that he introduced himself as. I'm the number one researcher of incels. And on the planet.

[Trevor Wallace]

Dude, there's too many jobs. I'm retracting.

[Chris Williamson]

He loves it.

[Trevor Wallace]

There we go. There we go.

[Chris Williamson]

He just loves incel.

[Trevor Wallace]

So he's the number one incel.

[Chris Williamson]

Number one researcher of incels, which makes him an incel. No, I think. Well, research is me search in many ways.

[Trevor Wallace]

But I like that. I'm sorry, I don't.

[Chris Williamson]

I mean, I've met his girlfriend. I've met his girlfriend. He seems to be slinging it around and he's Irish, so that helps. But anyway, yeah. Autistic sex educator Billy Evans has been on dating apps since she was 18. She says it is genuinely wild how often she sees references to autism on people's profiles. I'd like to have a conversation with these people to understand what they're hoping to achieve. She told Dazed.

[Trevor Wallace]

I. I also. I feel bad for people who are generally autistic right now because I think there's a lot of stolen valor out there. I think there's a lot of people who are kind of just, like, claiming it because they want to, like, have something. Like, growing up, I wanted to be different so bad. The classroom, I told people I was colorblind because I want. I wanted something different about me. Like, a teacher would literally point at something blue, and I'd be like, what is that gray? Like, I would, like, pretend that was your personality. Yeah, I wanted to be. I wanted to have a thing. And I think there is so many people who generally have struggles every day about autism. And there's some people who are just like, I just. Maybe I'm just autistic. No, not. That's. You're just not. You're. You're. You're using that as a cop out. Like, you're using that as like a. Oh, well, I don't know. I'm just autistic. It's not. There's a lot of undiagnosed autism, which isn't really diagnosed.

[Chris Williamson]

I can't remember who it was that said this to me, but they said, like, most mental health maladies are both underdiagnosed and over diagnosed at the same time. There's people who don't have it saying they do, and there's people who do have it that don't know that they do. Like, those two groups don't. The Venn diagram isn't actually that big of how much crossover.

[Trevor Wallace]

Yeah. So I feel like it's almost like a cop out sometimes. But, like, if you generally, if you do have it, then more power to you. But, But I, I, that's interesting. People are putting it on dating apps.

[Chris Williamson]

I didn't.

[Trevor Wallace]

I mean, maybe with Love on the Spectrum being so big, they're like, they're like, this is my chance. I do love Love on the Spectrum. That's one of my favorite shows ever.

[Chris Williamson]

I mean, unreal.

[Trevor Wallace]

But, like, the passion behind anybody on that show is like, like, oh, I only care about dragons. Like, well, what about a girlfriend? They're like, you're not a dragon. Shut up. And then the mom has to be like, no, you need to get married. And then the guy like, well, does she like dragons? Yeah, yeah, yeah. James is a great guy on there. They all have swords and, you know, and dude, they're making alcohol drinks. They're driving cars. I'm like, dude, these guys are living the life.

[Chris Williamson]

Yep.

[Trevor Wallace]

Not that I didn't think they couldn't do either of those, but a little bit, but, I mean, I would. I, like, loved their passion behind it.

[Chris Williamson]

One of the interesting lines on this was, how did we get to a stage where neurotypical men feel comfortable enough to make jokes about wanting an autistic girlfriend on apps like Hinge? So you have a problem here. If you said, I like autistic girls, that's you fetishizing neurodivergence. But if you also put no autists, that's you being exclusionary.

[Trevor Wallace]

That's racetism right there.

[Chris Williamson]

I don't know. I think you're just not allowed to really have an opinion on it. It's like, if you're pro. If you say, I like big girls, you're fetishizing, like, fat. And if you say, like, no fatties.

[Trevor Wallace]

Well, you're saying you're Drake There it is.

[Chris Williamson]

There it is.

[Trevor Wallace]

You just did a Toronto show that's a callback.

[Chris Williamson]

But it was his birthday the night that we were there.

[Trevor Wallace]

Oh, wow.

[Chris Williamson]

It was my show. Drake's Thing and Vibes Cartel all on the same weekend the night before the Blue Jays play. The biggest. I mean, you know, some say the biggest weekend that Toronto's ever had. It is.

[Trevor Wallace]

And you still sold it out.

[Chris Williamson]

Yep, still sold it out.

[Trevor Wallace]

That's beautiful.

[Chris Williamson]

Thankfully, I listed it a long time before any of that.

[Trevor Wallace]

Right before they got in the World Series, of course.

[Chris Williamson]

Fuck, I was. I really wanted to go to Drake's birthday or Vibes Cartel or the World Series fucking tickets to go and see Chris Williamson. I might as well get my money as well.

[Trevor Wallace]

Anyways, if you have. What were you saying? You're saying if you only like one.

[Chris Williamson]

Thing, basically, if you say that this is a preference of mine, you often get accused of fetishizing what that thing is. And if you say that you don't want that thing, then you're being exclusionary.

[Trevor Wallace]

Right, right.

[Chris Williamson]

Like, the best example of this is the body positivity stuff, which is like, I like big girls is fetishizing fat, but no fatties is you excluding people who are like, of a bigger size. It's really hard to win.

[Trevor Wallace]

So what, do you just play the middle or you just don't?

[Chris Williamson]

Well, I don't know. I mean, I think that you can't win. I think ultimately, ultimately you can't win. Initially, jokes about TISM Rizz started as a social media trend.

[Trevor Wallace]

Rizzm with the tism. Yeah, I've seen that.

[Chris Williamson]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Within the neurodivergent community to describe how their traits have garmed their romantic interests. I think that you might be onto something with the love on the spectrum. Yeah, I think that that might be.

[Trevor Wallace]

Well, honestly, you watch a show and they find such love that, like, maybe there's people watching that who resonate with them a little bit, where they go like, oh, I'm awkward and shy and dates too. Am I autistic? You know, it's not a one for one.

[Chris Williamson]

And they're not saying like, that's cultural approach, like neurodivergent cultural appropriation.

[Trevor Wallace]

It's just the meme community has taken over it and it's like Risen with autism is a funny line. But like, there's also people out there who are severely autistic and the thought of a date makes them panic and sweat. But then there's a guy or a girl on hinge being like, oh, I'm nervous. I can't make eye contact. No. You're just chronically online and you don't have human contact interactions often.

[Chris Williamson]

Yeah. You haven't seen a person in a few months.

[Trevor Wallace]

Right. I mean, I, I, I just think that the meme community's kind of taken over. This is, like, the first. And I don't. What would you call autism? Because it's not a disease. What would you say? It's what this is like, the first. What would you.

[Chris Williamson]

It's like a neurodivergent profile, but it's.

[Trevor Wallace]

Like, kind of the first human condition. Condition that has been really memed. And everyone's like, people aren't doing the.

[Chris Williamson]

Same thing with hiv.

[Trevor Wallace]

Correct. Yeah. Yeah. What would that be?

[Chris Williamson]

Resin with the hiv. Yeah.

[Trevor Wallace]

I was trying to think, get laid with the aids.

[Chris Williamson]

I don't know. Charlie Sheen seems to be doing pretty well. Yeah, he's crushing it.

[Trevor Wallace]

He's doing great.

[Chris Williamson]

Did you watch that documentary with him?

[Trevor Wallace]

I did.

[Chris Williamson]

Dude, I thought that was one of the best things that I've seen that story at the very beginning where he's absolutely hammered, and the pilot's like, the pilot, hey, come and sit down. Wouldn't it be funny if I put your uniform on? Wouldn't it be funny if I did? It's like, honestly, he was one step away from. Wouldn't it be funny if we just blew each other?

[Trevor Wallace]

I thought you were going a different direction. I thought you were going more New York with that. But, yeah, one thing I. Yeah, I mean, like, watching that documentary was so cool. I love watching just, like, the upbringing of people's success stories. Like I used to in college go on, like, every famous person I admire. It's like Wikipedia. And I would just be like, how did they get from A to B to C to D? Like, how did they become who they are? And I'd be fascinated. So seeing all this and finding out that Charlie Sheen was a nepo baby blew my mind. I'm like, oh, your dad was a famous actor.

[Chris Williamson]

You're.

[Trevor Wallace]

You're best friends with, you know, the guy growing up. I'm like, dude, you had no choice but to be an actor.

[Chris Williamson]

Sean Penn.

[Trevor Wallace]

Sean Penn.

[Chris Williamson]

Yeah.

[Trevor Wallace]

Yeah. So, But I. I mean, all bits aside, I thought it was really cool just, like, watching his upbringing and how he got, like, what he got offered Karate Kid or something.

[Chris Williamson]

Yeah. And he'd already made some commitments. You've got to stick to your word with this thing. And I don't know. I mean, Charlie Sheen is a really good example of someone who, I mean, he says it himself. Basically, he learned the lesson that actions don't have consequences. That he can kind of do whatever, torpedo the situation and usually end up not only landing on his feet, but landing on his feet like three fucking levels higher than he was previously.

[Trevor Wallace]

Failing forward in a lot of this.

[Chris Williamson]

Correct.

[Trevor Wallace]

Where. And that's what all of his co stars would say. It's like he would get on this like crazy rehab path, bounce back and then come back even more famous than ever. I'm thinking about picking up Kratom is what I'm trying to say. I, you know, I'm, I, I feel like I'm like, you know, I need.

[Chris Williamson]

To springboard my career.

[Trevor Wallace]

Yeah. I need something. How do I sell at Madison Square Garden? Let me get a needle. There's got to be one in this garage.

[Chris Williamson]

Yeah, I, I think it's fascinating seeing somebody who. How hard do people work? Like, you know, you with how obsessive you are about bits and drilling your sets and working and then we're gonna, you know, release it at this date and it's social campaign to build up and do all the rest of this stuff in a desperate attempt to try and gain little one percents here and now even half percents, you know, like, if you think how many shows would you reckon that you do, including spots, would you do over a 12 month period from like special to special?

[Trevor Wallace]

Oh, damn.

[Chris Williamson]

200, 300.

[Trevor Wallace]

I mean, just this past week I did nine sets and that was over two nights. Five shows. One night, four shows on Saturday, Tuesday, five, Saturday, four. Which I'm fortunate enough to be able to do because all the comedy clubs in LA are incredible and I've just been working at it for, you know, a decade and they're, you know, they're like, all right, cool. You're one of our regulars. Yeah. Whenever you need, we got you. Here's this. So I can kind of time it out where I'm doing a show at the Laugh Factory, then I go to the Comedy Store, then I go to the Improv, then back to Laugh Factor for the Late show and it's like I've got it all dialed in, but I love doing that. I say the sets in town are like gym reps. And then on the road is when you're out there doing the Ironman and all that. So in a year, I mean, I really wish I had an answer.

[Chris Williamson]

It could be like five. It could be more than 500. Yeah, almost certainly would be.

[Trevor Wallace]

If you're doing this, there's Definitely more than there is days in the year.

[Chris Williamson]

Okay, so let's say that you do like 400. Right. You keep it on a lot. So. And you need to get 60 minutes by the end of a year. So you're talking about like not far off. What's that? Like 15 seconds a night is what you're developing.

[Trevor Wallace]

Oh, I see what you're saying.

[Chris Williamson]

Right. So it's such a tiny proportion of the overall thing. Each individual rep contributes this like weenie, weenie, weenie, weeny bit. And then you have somebody like Charlie Sheen who just seems to maybe by virtue of his talent or time. I don't think it's timing because you'd say, oh, he timed the market. It's coincidence, whatever. You can't do that for a whole career. You can't write off fluke and chance and coincidence for a four decade, five decade career. That's impossible. So I'm kind of fascinated by people who, if you were to take the headlines of how they've behaved, should not have ended up being particularly successful. Like you should have Kamikaze Harry, carried your own career like seven times over by the age of 40.

[Trevor Wallace]

I think it's buzz meets talent. The buzz of the headlines where you're like, who? It's this guy. Because if you see he's out of rehab, you're going to want to watch his first show back. You're going to want to watch the first episode, be like, dude, how is this guy? And then you flip it on and he's an incredible actor and you're like, oh, I guess he still got it. And then it's rotation of always being in the news, whether it's for partying too hard, whether it's for dating somebody's too famous or going to re that first episode out. He's. The more you're in the headlines, the more your name is just relevant. And then when that show or the movie drops, you're like, dude, it's Charlie Sheen. He's a party. I gotta watch this guy. So it's kind of like he's staying relevant even on the screens and off the screens.

[Chris Williamson]

Yeah.

[Trevor Wallace]

And you're just fascinated by his life. There's certain people that I look forward to watching their Instagram stories because I know they're clinically insane. And I go, this is going to be good.

[Chris Williamson]

Liver King.

[Trevor Wallace]

I don't follow him anymore.

[Chris Williamson]

Yeah, I don't know if I ever did. I haven't for a while. It was been a couple of years since I watched it. It made Me uncomfortable, but.

[Trevor Wallace]

Oh, dude. I mean, yeah, he. He. I would imagine has good stories.

[Chris Williamson]

Well, have you seen him recently? It's like a descent into what appears to be meth fueled, like, insanity. Absolute insanity.

[Trevor Wallace]

Okay.

[Chris Williamson]

He's going. He's still like. Because he went to Austin. He got arrested for bringing a gun, saying he was going to fight Joe Rogan. And then. Yeah, it's actually kind of uncomfortable. It's, like, uncomfortable.

[Trevor Wallace]

But that's kind of the Charlie Sheen approach. Because that first podcast back, he did.

[Chris Williamson]

Yeah. So.

[Trevor Wallace]

But he's also. Yeah.

[Chris Williamson]

What you saw with Charlie, that, I think is like, a really cool lesson here. It worked as long as ultimately the thing that he did was good. But then when he did the live tour, that was a mess, and he was still a mess, and he was in the middle of his Tiger Bloods, like, you know, winning era, and they tracked him around that outside of the shows. I'm sure that some people enjoyed it. Right. Because they just wanted to be in the aura of Charlie Sheen. But a lot of people outside, like, that was the worst thing I've ever seen in my life. That was a total catastrophe. You waste of money. Overpriced, underdelivered. So this is this lesson that I've seen for ages is people will forgive pretty much anything as long as you're still good at the main thing that you do. If Kanye drops an absolute fucking slammer of her next album, people will still listen to it. And in a weird way, it kind of forgives tons of the sins he's committed. Does that make sense?

[Trevor Wallace]

Yeah.

[Chris Williamson]

Whereas if he falls off all of the criticism, personally, privately, culturally. Gets legitimized, stays at the top. Yes. Through his, like, lack of professional success. But I think we just. We revere talent and success so much.

[Trevor Wallace]

Yeah.

[Chris Williamson]

That we're just happy to forgive pretty much anything as long as someone is kind of good at what they do.

[Trevor Wallace]

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I, as a man who put a Kanye song on my Spotify recently, I go, ah, this doesn't feel good. This doesn't feel. But, you know, he's also just, like, clinically, like, insane. Like, that's. I don't like when the media will, like, film him and be like, kanye crash. I'm like, yeah, he's off the rocker.

[Chris Williamson]

He's Britney Spears in 2007.

[Trevor Wallace]

Correct. Correct. Britney singing with a new haircut. She's schizophrenic. She shaved her head, and she has an umbrella. It's 98 degrees outside. Like, I don't like when News articles post that. Like, like, it's like they're not insane. Like, they're like, oh, Kanye's having a weird day. He's in the head.

[Chris Williamson]

Yeah, it's.

[Trevor Wallace]

It's just like, it's crazy that we just film everybody doing this and then like, who's actually helping these people?

[Chris Williamson]

That's a good point. Because if it was somebody. Well, I mean, I was going to say if it was somebody that was going through a drug addiction, that wouldn't be tracked. But then you look at a Kate Moss, you look at a Pete Doherty from back in the day, you look at Amy Winehouse. The downfall of talented people, the potential downfall. And basically kind of like watching a car go toward another car and going like, are they going to hit? Is that going to happen? Or are they going to be able to miss it? And then turn around and then they go again and then, oh, fix them. So on and so forth, I guess.

[Trevor Wallace]

Is more amusing to watch. And listen, there's thousands of people that probably try to help Kanye on a day to day basis. But it, to your point, it is more interesting to watch somebody like the, the car crash analogy. Like, are they gonna land this plane? Are they gonna.

[Chris Williamson]

Yep.

[Trevor Wallace]

Is Kanye gonna figure this one out or is he gonna release a new album? And it's all in German. Featuring Elon Musk. You've. Have you interviewed Elon?

[Chris Williamson]

No, not yet. Yeah, we considered. We were talking to his team a little while ago. I think he's had a busy period over the last 12 months.

[Trevor Wallace]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. He's. But naming his kids QR codes. And listen, I'm Jewish, so he. Those two guys are pressing my people.

[Chris Williamson]

Well, you say that, but you added him to your Spotify.

[Trevor Wallace]

We should cut to an ad.

[Chris Williamson]

In other news, I've been drinking AG1 every morning for years now. Dude, you tried to fastball me that that was down the plate. And I've just. Shohei Otani did. I've been drinking AG1 for as long as I can remember. It is the best all in one drink that I've ever found. And that's why I'm such a fan of them and that's why I partnered with them as well. I have got my mum to start taking it, my dad to start taking it, and all of my friends as well. And if I found anything better, I would switch, but I haven't. Why do you keep throwing it at the mic? Stop throwing it at the mic. See, anyway, over 75 vitamins, minerals and whole food source ingredients it's got probiotics and prebiotics. It's also NSF certified, meaning even Olympians can use it. And in the throat. In the throat. How dare you. I hit the. I hit the. Ah. This isn't even an ad read anymore. It's just a war zone. Oh, okay. Okay. Anyway, if you too want something to throw at your friends or a tasty blend of 75 vitamins, minerals, probiotics and whole food sourced ingredients designed to drink first thing in the morning in one scoop, it's here. [e-mail] ModernWisdom for stuff. Thank you.

[Trevor Wallace]

But you know, Kanye was only a feature on the song. It wasn't his full. It was his song with Rick Ross, Devil in a new Dress. I mean, have you heard this song? Rick Ross's verse carries the whole thing. Okay, and back from the commercial break. I don't care.

[Chris Williamson]

Keep it all in the fucking ejector seat button.

[Trevor Wallace]

I don't care. Keep it in.

[Chris Williamson]

I need to talk about how much you drink Celsius.

[Trevor Wallace]

Let's talk about it.

[Chris Williamson]

Yeah, it's too much.

[Trevor Wallace]

Do I drink a lot of it?

[Chris Williamson]

I. You know, you talk about it. It's your go to. It's like the canonical I'm. I need caffeine. I talk about this drink. Drink. We got a cease and desist from a large energy company because of something that my co founder said for the co founder for this thing.

[Trevor Wallace]

What did they say?

[Chris Williamson]

They said that we made wings. They may have said that. What he said was this. And we have this like I'm gonna. It's printed off and framed like as is seen in Exhibit 9.3.2. Your Mr. Smith said that our client's drink quote, tastes like piss and is quote, consumed by chronic masturbators.

[Trevor Wallace]

Are we still talking about the incel guy?

[Chris Williamson]

Anyway, I want to get you off, please.

[Trevor Wallace]

Yeah, send me. Send me these.

[Chris Williamson]

Yeah. You need more. You need something?

[Trevor Wallace]

Yeah, Celsius. I mean it's just like the energy during game is. I mean, dude, they're. They're supercharging. They're spiking. Panera lemonades. Do you know Panera bread? You don't know Panera Bread? Holy, you're rich. Panera bread is like French subway.

[Chris Williamson]

I went into one Panera.

[Trevor Wallace]

So they put out this like lemonade, a char double charged lemon. It has 400 milligrams of caffeine.

[Chris Williamson]

Okay. Was this something killed two people? Yes, yes, yes.

[Trevor Wallace]

I don't know if it was kid, but it did kill two people.

[Chris Williamson]

Okay.

[Trevor Wallace]

Which.

[Chris Williamson]

That's America.

[Trevor Wallace]

Correct. I mean, they were gonna die from that broccoli, cheddar cheese soup anyways. And to the families of those people. I'm sorry, but, I mean, I think they got a refill. I think that's where it was. You could have unlimited refill.

[Chris Williamson]

So they had, like, 800 million?

[Trevor Wallace]

I believe so.

[Chris Williamson]

Well, it shows. It's tasty.

[Trevor Wallace]

Yeah.

[Chris Williamson]

If you're gonna consume two big gulps of that. Also not rich British. There's a difference. Okay, we have Greggs. You familiar with Greggs?

[Trevor Wallace]

Who?

[Chris Williamson]

Greggs.

[Trevor Wallace]

That's. What is that?

[Chris Williamson]

Greggs is a bakery in the uk. It makes probably the best sausage rolls on the planet, some may say. And the uk.

[Trevor Wallace]

Is there a competition for that?

[Chris Williamson]

Kind of. The UK is basically split into north, north, and south. North is Gregg's. South is pret. A manger. And that's kind of like the.

[Trevor Wallace]

I think pretty manje is in this drink. Okay, so this a pig in a blanket. That's what we call it.

[Chris Williamson]

America, they do that sort of stuff. No, sausage roll would be wrapped in pastry rather than, like. You know what I mean?

[Trevor Wallace]

Yeah. And it's a sausage.

[Chris Williamson]

Yes. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Trevor Wallace]

Okay, but what's that?

[Chris Williamson]

Panera bread.

[Trevor Wallace]

But, like, the energy. I mean, I remember when Red Bull came out, it was, like, revolutionary. In sixth grade, this kid, Josh Fleming, took a sip of one at a bowling alley, and I remember he took one sip and started sprinting. Like, it was very performative. And we're all in sixth grade. We're like, why is this crazy amounts of caffeine?

[Chris Williamson]

And you thought he was black because you're colorblind.

[Trevor Wallace]

I was colorblind. And he, fun fact, is Korean, but he is mixed. I believe his dad is black, but we thought 98 grams of caffeine was crazy. And now Celsius is 200. But now there's drinks out there with like 300 and 400, and it's. What's the barometer? I think a cup of coffee is, like 120.

[Chris Williamson]

We need to ask Huberman humans in later on. We can ask.

[Trevor Wallace]

Oh, you're going from me to Huberman. That's great.

[Chris Williamson]

You're right.

[Trevor Wallace]

I mean, the amount of brain. You're losing a bunch of brain cells, and you're gaining a bag with Huberman, Then you're leaving this studio leveled.

[Chris Williamson]

You seem like a pretty positive guy overall.

[Trevor Wallace]

Dank.

[Chris Williamson]

I'd say so. I mean, I don't know how much of it is, you know, comedic Persona versus sort of genuine disposition at Least in my experience, like having spent a good bit of time around comedians. Most, most people's comedic Personas are just kind of like a tuned up version of who they are. Yeah. Very few of them are a total U turn. Like someone who's crazy, extroverted and outgoing on stage, but is like, doesn't have any of that energy internally. Because I don't think that the depth of insight, I don't think that people would be able to get that. Jimmy Carr is a great example of this. Jimmy is just more Jimmy on stage and less Jimmy when he's in private. But I see a good bit of sort of cynicism on the Internet and a good few reasons to be cynical. There's lots of stuff that's hard and fucking. People have got bullshit jobs and neurodivergence and the world's going to shit. And all this stuff I'm interested in where that positivity, like how you combat cynicism even in the world of comedy, like, there's a lot of cynicism, backbiting, like drama stuff. I just think it's a, like, that kind of resilience seems to be pretty good for you.

[Trevor Wallace]

As long as I'm working, I'm pretty happy. I, I find happiness in work. I find happiness in being productive. Where I get down in my head is when all this work I'm doing feels like it's for nothing. When I hit a streak and there's a streak of videos that are all eating and I'm going, but I'm working so hard and it's not doing well. That's when I can really. That's when my like, you know, toxic trade is. I hone in only on that week. I don't look at anything else I've done. I don't look at any other accomplishments or any other videos. I go, but these four videos in the past week, eight. Does that mean I'm. And I get super in my head about that. But, but now it's like. And kind of catch that and go, okay, well you're probably overworked because this didn't bother you in the past. It's like, okay, well, when was the last time I got any exercise? When was I someone to the gym when I. When did I do anything for myself to get out of this rut? So that's when I can kind of like catch it. But as far as positivity, it's like, there's just. I just love what I do so much that by doing this, it's. I'M living my dream every day. So it's like, why wouldn't I be happy? The times I get mad is when I'm on some bullshit general meeting with to be. And they're like, so, what's your show idea? Fuck you. How about that? Because it's not going to happen. We're gonna. I'm gonna pitch a show, you're gonna give your shit notes. I'm gonna give my notes. And then it just stays in this rut for hours. I love the Internet because I can have an idea right now. I can leave here, film it, upload it, connect my people, and, like, there's no middle ground.

[Chris Williamson]

There's no gatekeeper.

[Trevor Wallace]

No, there's so many gatekeepers in. In the industry. And I just feel like creativity is a rare feeling, and you have to strike on it when it hits. And. And what's funny today might not be funny tomorrow, might not be funny in a year, might not be fun in five years, 10 years, whatever it is. So when creativity hits, it's a blessing. And you can't block it. You can't, like, if you're feeling creative, make that video. If you're. If you don't be like, I'll make it tomorrow morning when I have more free time. It's like, no, because you're going to get to the next morning and you're going to be like, what was that? How did I end that again? What was it? And you're not going to feel that spark. So when you're hitting this creativity, just. That's like, that's your sign. That's the creative gods being like, go make this. Go make this. And where I found the stress to be is I'm like, hey, guys, I'm feeling this creative energy. Let's do this thing. And they're like, wow, we can set you up.

[Chris Williamson]

Red tape. You can't do it when you want. Here's some bureaucracy.

[Trevor Wallace]

Exactly. So I don't know how I got on that.

[Chris Williamson]

That's perfect. There's an idea from Naval Ravikant. He says, inspiration is perishable. Act on it immediately. Yeah, same thing.

[Trevor Wallace]

And I've had those moments where I get an idea and I love the idea, and I go, oh, I need to shoot this. I need to shoot this. And then I sit on it, and then, you know, I open my phone one day and then somebody makes an idea like that. I go, damn it. I had that idea. I should. And then you, like, want to mess that person. Dude, I had that idea too. And they're like, okay, you didn't ship it? Didn't see it.

[Chris Williamson]

Yeah, yeah.

[Trevor Wallace]

And I've also sat on videos that I didn't edit. I shot them, I didn't edit them. I didn't get them done. And then somebody does the same thing, and I go, oh, I should have, but I didn't.

[Chris Williamson]

So one of the most common questions, there's a Q and A thing at the end of the. The live show. And one of the most common questions that people are asking is something to the effect of, I'm 23, and I'm. I'm working real hard at this job that I do or this career that I'm in or this business that I'm building. But I know that work life balance is kind of important, and I don't want to. I don't want to waste all of my time not like, being present or like being mindful or whatever it might be. And one of the issues with that, that I see is a lot of the people who have a platform, like a big enough platform to be able to talk about how they got to the place that they're at. Let's say it's. It's Rogan or Tom Segura or yourself or whatever. Most of the guys are a little bit older than you are, and by that point, they are in the work life balance mode. They are talking about, I like to spend time with my kids, and this is important, but that's not how they got there.

[Trevor Wallace]

Right, Right.

[Chris Williamson]

So the rule is model the rise, not the result.

[Trevor Wallace]

Oh, I like that. So can we put that on a shirt?

[Chris Williamson]

Model rise, not the result. Because if you ask somebody, like, how did you get to where you are? A lot of the time people talk about what they do now.

[Trevor Wallace]

Yeah.

[Chris Williamson]

Not what they did when they were at your stage. My point is, when people say, I'm 23, I'm crushing it at this thing, but I think I should do work life balance. I think they're taking the wrong message for the wrong time. And what you're saying here is you have the freest discipline ever, because it doesn't take any discipline for you to go and do nine spots in two nights. It's just obsession.

[Trevor Wallace]

Right.

[Chris Williamson]

So if you think about obsession, discipline, and motivation. So motivation is, I want to go and do the thing. Discipline is I tell myself to go and do the thing. And obsession is I can't not do the thing. Right. So it's like you're being ripped forward by this. What I'm seeing to try and tie this up fucking big mess I've made up into a bow. People who are obsessive are basically questioning, should I purposefully not use all of this free fuel that I'm getting to try and make some shit happen in the world in order to do the work life balance thing. What they don't realize is that obsession will wane over time. Like you, that is going to be a sort of depreciating fuel source. Like, dude, this is the freest motivation and discipline that you're ever going to get because you literally can't not do the thing. So you might as well just completely fucking like send it. Take a flamethrower to the candle. Like, forget burning it at both ends kind of the same way that you are. Because in 10 years time, maybe it's gonna be tougher for you to force yourself to do nine sets in two nights. Maybe you can't. Maybe you've got restrictions or responsibilities or some other bullshit going on.

[Trevor Wallace]

Correct.

[Chris Williamson]

And you think, I wish I'd really sent it when it was there, when the fuel source was free. And also that's when you accumulate the skills that allow you to kind of ride the wave going forward. Because you do have to earn your keep. You've got to accumulate the skills and the talents and the experience. You go, I might as well do that again when it's freest, easiest, et cetera, et cetera. So, yeah, this obsession thing, obsession, motivation, discipline, I've been playing with for a while and I think it relates at least a little bit to what you're talking about.

[Trevor Wallace]

Yeah, sorry, I just heard an airplane and I'm severely autistic. No, I, I totally agree. And I mean, as, as I'm a sucker for a motivational podcast quote, I'm a sucker for anything that kind of sparks that. And the, the overarching thing you see in a lot of these is like, just start. But so many people go like, well, what if it's not my passion? All right, it don't do it. Or what if I don't like, then don't, like, try all these things. The amount of different types of videos I tried before I found like, what my own voice was very similar to stand up. I think everybody starts stand up with their favorite comedians in the back their head influencing how they write. You know, I first started, I thought, I thought I could write like Bill Burr. I'm like, I'm not a guy from Boston. I, I don't, I'm not him. I'm not, I'm nowhere near, anywhere near as good as this guy. And like, but you watch in your influence and then you like chisel away and you go, okay, well now I'm watching more of this guy and then I'm watching some of her. And then you like kind of just form. So over time you find what your passion is, you find your voice and it's just about the journey. So going back to what you were saying with the rise of it, it's like I put everything aside when I was coming up because I couldn't wait to be done with my 9 to 5. When I'd be done by 9 to 5 at 5pm I would drive to an open mic and go do that. So weekdays was open mics and then Saturday I'd shoot a sketch, Sunday I'd post it or sorry, Saturday I'd shoot it, Sunday I'd edit, Monday I'd post it. And that was every week. That was my, that was when it was slower. This was pre vertical videos. This is horizontal. This is when YouTube platform is this YouTube, right? This is, this is like 2017 to 2019. This was like right before kind of pandemic when everything started taking off vertically. Vertically. It's a new, it's. It's a new game. Like when I got in one video a week was like good. That was like fine. And I was like one sketch a week. And now, dude, now it's like I'm, I'll talk to my like Instagram or TikTok reps and like, yeah, I used to be posting like three to four times a day. That sounds annoying. That's too much. So it's a different ball game getting in now. But there's also less care about production. There's less care about. I say that when there's 19 cinema cameras around me, there's less care. I think if I posted a clip of you saying something on my iPhone and then just one of these from this camera, there's just as good of a chance that the iPhone.

[Chris Williamson]

I think the iPhone one wins.

[Trevor Wallace]

It might, I think but in when people are watching more long form content, they're gonna want this camera. You don't want the sound but you know, everything on my page is either shot on an iPhone or like a cinema camera or like it's always constantly changing. I'll upload a sketch from a ring camera and I'm being dead serious because I just want to switch it up. I just want to try everything.

[Chris Williamson]

I'm confident you can just use Sora for that. Apparently the. That's getting close yeah, it's getting close.

[Trevor Wallace]

I've, I've tried to use it a few times and it's like I'm such a hands on guy when it comes to editing that I want to be.

[Chris Williamson]

Do you still edit your own stuff?

[Trevor Wallace]

No, but I'm just hands on with it. Like I meet with my editors. Yeah, yeah, I meet with my editors a lot and I'm just like, like there'll be times where I'm giving notes over my computer. My editor lives like 10 minutes from me. Shout out John, the best guy in the biz. And I'm like, dude, just come over. It's 1am and we're like just, just trim that. We'll just trim that one word right there and just, just I'm super hands on with it. Which is a blessing and a curse. I think it slows down production a little bit because I, besides I won't post it because I'm like, well you misspelled this. Or, or, or I just, I wish it opened on this frame right here. So it's. Some people are like, you know, make your sacrifices and be like I just posted, now I can focus on something else. But I'm the guy who's up at or crack of dawn or like three in the morning, like just trying to chisel away at something because I'm like, this is how it should be.

[Chris Williamson]

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[Trevor Wallace]

I can't. I'll be laying there obsessing, roll over to my notes app. My eyes are closed. Because that's part of the obsession.

[Chris Williamson]

Yes. Because I'm like very, very staunch with phone. Can't be in bedroom. My solution for this has been I leave my AirPods out of the case on the bedside table next to me. And then I put them in and it goes. I go, tomorrow, 10am Remind me an unteachable lesson is you should lie in a hammock more or whatever. But then it tries to transcribe it and I wake up the next day and at least 50% of the time it's fucking gibberish.

[Trevor Wallace]

You should lay in a hamcock more. And you're like, is that what they're selling at Gregg's these days?

[Chris Williamson]

I'm like, oh, fuck. But anyway, that, like, you're. You're right. And I think it's brilliant and is lauded quite rightly so. Seeing someone that's a craftsman, but I love it.

[Trevor Wallace]

Yeah.

[Chris Williamson]

The guy that owns this place, you know, it's evident that he really cares about the cars. He's tinkering with them, working on like, isn't that fucking cool? But also when you try and have that in your private life. No, sorry.

[Trevor Wallace]

What was him. The battery's dead. For the. Just for the Ferrari. Yeah, it was in Ferris Bueller. I need to know that it's mine.

[Chris Williamson]

That obsession stuff is great in your professional life, but really in your personal life, awful.

[Trevor Wallace]

It's like, I. I've told everyone I've ever dated. I'm like, I don't think it's fun dating me because it's like, I just love work so much that it, like, it's hard for me to be really present everything I'm doing, whether, even when I'm not working, I'm working, I'm watching a show. We're at dinner. It's like I was at a lunch yesterday with my girlfriend and this high school couple starts arguing next to us. And I immediately pull up my notes app and I go, okay, what's. What's the angle? What's the angle? But she's great too, and she's very funny and she's like. Also like, okay, what if you write this down? What if you. So I'm always on. But if you see it as not, like, disrespect, disrespect of you, and you're like, dude, this is how his brain works, then I think it's fun, then everyone can get in.

[Chris Williamson]

She's in on it. Oh, your friends are in on it? Like, for instance, a couple of my friends that a. Fewer writers. I live with one of them, George, and he'll see shit that's amazing, but just not quite right for him. And I just get it must be like going out and partying with Dan Bilzerian back in the day. The trickle down effect of being around him. There's a blast radius of good shit that he's written. He's like, dude, this story from Winston Churchill, I can't use it, but it's gonna fucking destroy on the pod. So he'll send me stuff in the same way. Or we'll be out at dinner and I'll be. I'm trying to think that. I'm trying to work this idea out. I think there's something there. It's like obsession, motivation, discipline. Oh, well, why don't we, you know, we'll come up with a name for it. We can do the. That's sick.

[Trevor Wallace]

I love it.

[Chris Williamson]

But if it's like, I should be obsessed over which frame this particular cut needs to be in to make it maximally funny, or whether it's PayPal or Venmo or Cash app, and I need to Refine this little piece down. But if it's trying to, like, optimize your relationship or pay too much attention, be obsessive about your relationship in a way that's. Ryan Long taught me this. That we love and laud in ourselves. Like, the attention that we pay and the amount of detail, like, the resolution. Like, oh, wow, I'm so locked in. You want to be able to turn it off when it comes to, like, your relationship with your parents, but that's not the way it works. You don't get to compartmentalize.

[Trevor Wallace]

I feel not like myself when I turn it off. When I'm, like, being too serious or talking to anybody and I'm like, I'm not being my true self. I'm like, this is boring. Like, when I feel like I have to downplay it. Like, I had a meeting to write a will. Like, my dad's like, you need to stay playing. You need to write a will. I mean, I was in that. I wanted to be like, kill me now. Like, this is the. I don't care who. I'm dead. I don't give a shit. The guy's a. Well, do you want to be an organ donor? And there's levels of organ donor. They can, like, gouge your eyes out. I don't care. I don't care. I want to upload a video that might bomb. I just want to be anywhere but here. And it's so serious and it's so boring. And I'm just like, is this how you. There's no fun in this office. The sterile lighting. We have a Keurig in the corner. If I hear another Keurig coffee, I will put a gun in my mouth. I just. I can't like anybody that takes away from me be wanting to be me. I'm like, this is miserable. This is not what I want to be. That's why stand up comedy is like. Like the most beautiful form of entertainment in the world. It's like. It's just. You're just. There's really no limitations on it. You can just be your yourself. And I have to blind myself up there because I don't want, you know, the thought of, you know, if I see someone in the front row with their arms crossed, you know, now I'm in my head now it's like chipping away at, like, being myself. But I just love stand up so much because you could just be yourself and you're not, like, trying to form to, like, something where I, like, hate is like, just a small target. Like a wedding or just small talk in general. I'm like, I'm not going to give you my personality. I'm not. I'm just like. It just feels like so ping pong back and forth. So boring. Anything I can do to not be in that. And whether it's. I'm. I'm constantly just talking to myself because that's where I know I can bounce ideas off myself. Instead of, like talking to some random guy at a wedding, I'm like, what's funny? I'm writing down myself because I can be funny to myself and I can, like, talk to myself.

[Chris Williamson]

It's cool to enjoy the landscape of your own mind and to be like, oh, I don't have anything to do on a plane and the WI fi is broken.

[Trevor Wallace]

Like, dude, I love being alone. For that reason.

[Chris Williamson]

This is cool. I can actually sit with my thoughts and I know that I'm not going to get distracted and I can do a little bit of dude.

[Trevor Wallace]

I come up with the most ideas when I'm just by myself, either in conversation with people or it's like, I usually travel with a few people for shows and whatnot, but, like, if I'm doing a college gig, I'll just fly out by myself. It's. There's no glitz and glam. It's like I show up to Rowan University in Philadelphia by myself. I do that. Get out of there. But those, like, 48 hours of traveling by myself, I mean, that's what I'm thinking about the most stuff. Because so much of my days on meetings or calls or talking to people, doing stuff, giving notes on editing, I'm never really truly alone. And even when I'm alone at home, I'm tired from the full day. So when I'm just like on an airplane by myself, like you said, and the wifi is out, or, you know, that's when I'm like, whoa, I haven't tapped into my own thoughts in a while. What's going on? What's funny? To me, nothing is funnier than. I love making myself laugh, where it's like, I'm just at the airport and I see somebody just doing something so bizarre. And I'm like, I wish I had somebody to tell it to. But instead I'm like, oh, what's funny here? And I like, almost like having this conversation with myself to find the funny.

[Chris Williamson]

This is something that another question that comes up at the live shows is, how do you retain what you learn? I'm not particularly good at it. I think I've Just been exposed to. You'll be episode 10, 20 of the show or something. So even If I took 1% from every episode, it's still tons of stuff. I think one of the things that people struggle with, that you've identified there is if you don't have an outlet, there is very little motivation for why you're looking for stuff. You're not scavenging for ideas if there isn't some publish that's happening, right? If you're not going to turn it into a song or draw it in an illustration expression. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Or talk about it on a podcast or write about it in a blog post or you put it on stage for a comedy special or whatever. Like, if you're. If you don't have a reason to do it for the most part, you're probably not going to be as motivated to really, really seek this stuff out. And I think it's. It's a good. I couldn't agree more about the no gatekeeper frictionless thing. That's why substack's so great. Like, nobody needs to understand how to build a website or have a lead magnet or a fucking capture form. It's like social media blogging. Go on. I have an idea. And if it's good, there's an ecosystem of people there that will go, this is great, and they'll reshare it. And now you're a writer. You're like, nobody stops you from being a writer anymore. You can be a writer tomorrow, but if you don't have some sort of an outlet. And this is one of the sort of commonalities that I've seen with people that ask like, how do I retain what I learn? Or how do I find better ideas or whatever it might be. It's like, well, is there. Have you got a reason for it other than just, I want to have better ideas? It's like, because I want my blog to be better on my podcast or my music or my drawing or my illustrations or my fucking comedy. Oh, well, if you've got that, that's going to be the. The North Star that you're going to be working toward. But without that, there's no reason, right?

[Trevor Wallace]

Because you feel like you're just kind of aimlessly shooting something or recording something or writing something. You're like, what is this for, though?

[Chris Williamson]

Ye. Maybe you're not even recording it or writing it or shooting something. You're just like wanting to hold on to. I'm just going to be funnier round the water cooler or whatever. Like that's not. I think that's enough motivation.

[Trevor Wallace]

Yeah, well, yeah, I think oftentimes people settle, they go, well, that's good enough. Or they go, they immediately get shot down. They go, yeah, but then where would that go? But then where would they like, question? They doubt themselves right out the gates. They go, ah, this is a good food recipe. But who, who would want to read that? Who would want to. So it's like the self doubt is so strong. And I mean, I face that all the time too. It's like, you know, I, I pitch an idea to myself and I go, or even an idea. It's like I want to do more stuff in the traditional side of things. And it's like, I really want to do this show, but then I got to get a producer and director right then. So it's like it doesn't even make it out. It makes it outside of my mouth, but that's about it. And it's like I shoot it down before I even have done it because I haven't done it. If you've made a TV show, every time you've made a show, it gets easier and easier. But since I've never made a TV show and only done like sketches and stuff like that, to me I'm like, yeah, but then I'd have to find a budget and then find a good producer and find it. But once you've done it a bunch, you're like, it's actually really easy. It's actually like, I hit up this person, that person, this person, that person. It's actually quite straightforward. So when you haven't done it, it's easier to doubt it because you know doubt, you don't know success. Am I cooking?

[Chris Williamson]

Yeah, you are. Holy. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Trevor Wallace]

But, but it's. You were talking about knowing like what you retain from stuff I heard somewhere. It's like your brain defaults to negativity because it's a safer place, even though the outcome isn't. But like, it's, it's a more familiar place than it is success. So it's like if you swing a bat 10 times and you miss nine, your brain just kind of thinking, well, why would I step up to the mountain I'm just gonna miss? But that one out of ten, crank it out. So that, that's why I go, that's why I post videos. Because for that 1 out of 10 is like that. I think, like, whatever. I think once you go viral, it's like a blessing and a curse because then it's like a Drug. It's like when you go to a casino and you hit a slot for the first time. I don't know what you guys call in the UK sloots, but when you. The first time, something else. Oh, there we go. She's on your shirt. Just kidding. That's a nice lady. But I remember when I went to this casino when I was 18, it's. They give you a punch card or they give you like a 50 free card and I think they load it up. I think it's ricked. I mean it's a casino.

[Chris Williamson]

Oh. Like the thing about TikTok where one in the first five things that a new account puts up will have a little bit of virality.

[Trevor Wallace]

Correct. Because then it's like, I've never done heroin. But you know how they say you're chasing the dragon or whatever. It's like that with social media. If you have a video hits a million views, it's almost like you can't even enjoy that million because you're quickly going like, what's. Oh, what can I do next? What can I do next? And then. Or you get in your head, you're, well, the next thing I do isn't going to be as good as that. Now I get trapped. It's like I had this video in college. I was on vine and I had this video do like 14 or 15 million. Like was it revines re loops?

[Chris Williamson]

I never watched, I never used it. I forget what it's called, whatever it is place.

[Trevor Wallace]

But I froze because I was like, I don't know what to make. I don't know what to make. Like nothing I make is going to be as good as this. All these new fans that are seeing this, fans I had like 10,000 of the time. I was like, all these new people are going to see this and be like, ah, it's not as good as the last one. And I froze and I didn't do anything and then I didn't post anything. And the next video I did eight. Because there was. I lost all the momentum.

[Chris Williamson]

Yep.

[Trevor Wallace]

So it's like it blessing and a curse type of thing where it's like, yeah, all this video is doing great. And then you're like, how do I beat it? That's not the. That's not what you should be thinking. You should be like, how can I make something that I had that same passion for in that first video?

[Chris Williamson]

Yeah.

[Trevor Wallace]

How can I find that same excitement? But you're chasing that. So I think to the casino effect. You get views and now you're like, oh, I. It's proof that I can do it.

[Chris Williamson]

Yep.

[Trevor Wallace]

How do I keep doing it?

[Chris Williamson]

The problem is that has now set a standard that you can meet or that you can fail at meeting.

[Trevor Wallace]

Right.

[Chris Williamson]

The very beginning of doing something is brilliant because it's all upside.

[Trevor Wallace]

Yeah.

[Chris Williamson]

You can't eat shit. You haven't done anything before. So the higher that you climb, the further there is to fall. And I've thought about this, I've thought about this with the live stuff. So I'm in the middle of tour at the moment and, you know, this is the first America headline. America and Canada headline tour that I've done. North America, that's what you guys call it, right? To like, come double them together so you don't have to go like, yeah, it's the first one that I've done. And now I'm thinking, well, if I don't sell out the town hall in New York again next year, that means as opposed to being on the come up and getting your first debut show in Manhattan to be 1500 people. Oh, that's.

[Trevor Wallace]

You've fallen off when there's so much else that also factors into it.

[Chris Williamson]

Yeah, of course. The timing of when's the show? What is it? Drake's birthday and Vibes, Cartel and the World Series happening at the same time on the same.

[Trevor Wallace]

Well, I mean, it's. Yeah, it's also. Every year you go on tour, the economy is in a different place and it's never in a great place, but it's definitely not. I started touring really heavy right out of the pandemic. And there were so many people that were like, dude, we've been locked up for all these years. We want to go to something live. Holy. Trevor's finally coming to my town. We gotta go. And those tickets, Easy sale flew off the shelf. I mean, like, I, I, like before I even left for the Tour, I think 70% of the shows were all sold out. And now I'm touring again and. And I'm using those metrics on those shows and I'm like, let's go bigger in those venues. And I'm feeling like, like, okay, we're taking some really big swings. Some cities like Toronto hit it. Boom.

[Chris Williamson]

Yeah. What do you say about the Canadian audience? They just want to buy straight away. We love you.

[Trevor Wallace]

They want to see how insane Americans are. They want to be like, is this Trump Democrats? He really get with them? You know, I don't know, but there's just certain markets and you could talk to any comedian in the world or really entertainer. There's just some markets you just don't sell. Well, Chicago, I did 3,000. Milwaukee couldn't fill a 900 seat room. Now they're like an hour ish from each other.

[Chris Williamson]

Wow.

[Trevor Wallace]

Did that play into it? I don't know. Is there just are more people from that area gonna be like, well, let's drive to Chicago for a weekend to go to the big show then to go to this Milwaukee one. There's just so many factors in it that sense.

[Chris Williamson]

Right. Oh, I've had a pullback.

[Trevor Wallace]

Yeah. Of course. It's like to your point, I, I, I, I did the Wiltern twice on the Size tour. It's in Boston, beautiful venue. And I am doing it twice again on this tour. But there's definitely a thought when I put the first one sale, like if I'm only doing one, does that mean I'm not this as relevant or I did somewhere in Charleston, South Carolina to start this tour off on tour right now. TroyWalst.com and I got there and I saw my name on the stone because I performed there and it said two sold out shows. But the last time I went there recently only did one. And it's this weird like why can't I just be happy with one sold out show still? Because you're equating it to this. And it's the same. I'm hyper fixating on one show the same way I hyper fixate on one video. It's tunnel vision where you're like, as.

[Chris Williamson]

Opposed to three weeks ago, this one was a new record or this one was just really great or.

[Trevor Wallace]

Yeah. Or the fact that when you were here last time it was out of a pandemic. You had a Saturday night, you had an 8pm now you're doing a Thursday at 7pm and it's whatever is going on with it, but it's, it's so hard. I was just talking about this yesterday for like an hour of like it's so hard to not equate the most recent thing you've done for work in any field as your whole worth not just entertainment in any field.

[Chris Williamson]

So true.

[Trevor Wallace]

It's like if this video flops, I feel like a failure. Not counting that this year I've had videos that have done 30 million, 40 million views. I've done three movies, I've done shows, I've opened for massive arena acts. And it's like. But when something is not working, that's all you are focusing on.

[Chris Williamson]

I'm a piece of right now, right Right this second, right now, I'm a piece of.

[Trevor Wallace]

And it's also like I. But it's like all I hyper focus on. It's the same thing with like a, like, if a hate comment, you get a hundred positive comments, you get one bad comment, you only start at that one comment. But also if a video is flopping, like in my barometer, I also think videos used to pop off way quicker back in the day. Like early TikTok 2019. What an era. Bless that era. You could post a video and an hour later might have a million views. Like, it was like it would pop, but now it's like, ah, this flopped. But. And now I'm in my head, I'm down bad. But a week later, I look at, I go, oh, that actually crept up to like 700,000 views.

[Chris Williamson]

That's pretty good.

[Trevor Wallace]

Yeah, it, like, over time it grew. So now I'm like looking at a seed in the ground. I'm like, why aren't you a tree yet? And I'm getting mad at myself because I'm not giving it time to find its audience, time to grow.

[Chris Williamson]

That's a great. That is the great thing about doing live, that the feedback is immediate. If what you've done is good, you know, within 0.5 seconds, if it's good.

[Trevor Wallace]

Stand up comedy is the best form of entertainment. And it's hands down for that reason. If stand up, you got a response the same way the algorithm did. It would be like one person would laugh and then 30 people laugh, and then two and then a hundred, and then a week later someone's like, like, it's so delayed that it, it almost takes the excitement out of it. That's why stand up is so great, because trying a new bit, you immediately know, like, that's good, that's bad.

[Chris Williamson]

Yeah.

[Trevor Wallace]

And then you, you get a pop on it, you go boom. Add it to the repertoire. Then you do it on a second show and it doesn't get as good of a laugh and you go, ooh, was this like a first, you know, was this a first bit kind of luck type thing and that? But then you obsessed and you're fascinated, oh, what did I do on the first show? You listen to the audio back. What I do on the first show that was different than the second show. Let me try another third show. And that's where I get super, like kind of you're talking about with the mark stuff where you keep trying and tweaking, you go, it worked on this show. So I know it is funny. For a fact, where do I find the funny? And then that's when I start doing like editing in my head. I go, well, you know, this three minute bit really is just a big payoff at the end. Do I need this two minutes in the front or do I take this one minute and then actually tack it on to the fact of this old joke? So now you're like, that's where. I love that. Where we start mixing and matching and nobody has any idea. And you're doing this in live time. That's the best.

[Chris Williamson]

That's the obsession again, right? Yeah, like that's what. That's what that is. And I do think there's a weird sort of beauty at the beginning of everybody's journey where the fact that there's no pressure on you means that you can just. Ah, yeah. So easy. The bar is pretty low. Nothing's popped off yet. No, I don't have any obligations. I don't have meetings with fucking Tubi and Spotify and like all of this, you know. We love you too, B. But there's just. No, you don't do much of the stuff that isn't the thing because there's none of the ancillary bullshit. There's no hiring and firing and team and management fucking invoices and oh God, the show in Milwaukee's been moved because of such and such a thing. So the whole routing's got to change. It's like, no, I just go and do my little spots. I like just do the thing. I do the art form. I'm just writing on substack. Oh, well, now you've got a book deal. Oh, and now you're going to have to like deal with the publisher and you've got timelines and you've got a research assistant. You've got to manage the research assistant. The research assistant's going to go away for two weeks. So you've got to get somebody else in. But they're not as good and they're not going to be. And you're like, like, I came here to do this thing and now I'm doing all of this stuff that isn't the thing.

[Trevor Wallace]

I have so many more days. Sorry to catch up. What were you saying?

[Chris Williamson]

No, no, that's it.

[Trevor Wallace]

I have so many more days where I like, I left my day job so I could do comedy full time like seven years ago. And it's. There's so many days where I'm more administrative, more like sitting down. Yeah. And I'm like, dude, I'll just Be in the middle of like, I'm like sitting with my assistant. I'm like, she's like, okay, then you have a 2 o', clock, you have a 3:30. And then I'm like, what? For what? All I want to do is make funny. Every meeting I take takes away from the funny. And there's so many days where I'm just doing all this admin shit and I go like, can I just shoot a fucking TikTok? And then I film that with the stressed out brain. Then the video flops and we're down to the races. So for me it's all about like finding those. You can't create creativity, but you can set yourself up for creativity. So it's like I, I might be like, okay, this Saturday I want to write what are the things that make me feel good so I could have a chance of getting creativity. Oh, that's good creative.

[Chris Williamson]

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[Trevor Wallace]

Really? Rest is the biggest thing. Sleep, good sleep. Working out in the morning and just working out like when those endorphins, it's like, like I'm pretty like in my head most of the day. But like if I like work out and I'm like, I've had a coffee and I'm, and I'm by myself, like I'm like walking around, I'M like singing to myself. I'm like, that's we're on the verge of something, we're feeling good. But for me, it's like, I, I can't structurally write where it's like, okay, you have a, you have a 2pm meeting and a 3, 3:30 meeting. But, but at 3 you should write. I'm like, that doesn't work for me where I'm like, okay, work, you know, like, let time to be funny. Like, you can't force funny for me. Some people set hours every day that are like, every day at 11, I write for an hour. And you're allowing yourself to be creative in those moments. But for me, it's like, I can't structurally do that. So when I'm having these days of all these meetings, instead of like, I'll, I'll be like, okay, guys, let's go to lunch. Let's. Let's step out of this office. Let's kind of get reset. Yeah, let's reset. Let's submerge. Let's be around some people. That's when ideas start flying up. For me, it's like there's ideas everywhere. It, whether it's fashion trends somebody's wearing, how somebody's talking to the barista or something. It's. It's just like. But when I'm in this stressed brain, it's like, it's almost like I have like, do not disturb on for ideas where I'm like, stressed. It's like, like all these ideas are right in front of me. But when I'm like relaxed or like kind of out of the work brain a little bit, like more like fun kind of stuff, it's so much easier for me to make these observations to make fun of where if I'm stressed, there's funny all around me, but I'm not noticing it.

[Chris Williamson]

So similar to what I do. And not for the funny bit, but for the, oh, that's like two ideas that I haven't realized that come together. And I've been hearing a lot of people talk about obsession at the moment. Zach Pogroms just started this new running club in New York and it's all about obsession. And well, I did this bit about motivation and discipline, but I never, I never wrote about it, I never published it. So I wonder if obsession's a part of the motivation discipline, but without. You're so right. If you're in admin mode, that stuff just, it can't penetrate at all. Mike Israel did this really wonderful episode about rest ethic. Stuff with me just fucking sick line. He says, you can't white knuckle creativity. Like you can't fucking grip it like this and be like, hey, be creative.

[Trevor Wallace]

Right, right, right.

[Chris Williamson]

Most things. You know, if it's answering emails, you can kind of like white knuckle email answering, of course. And you can white knuckle like fucking admin and responding to texts and you know, like sort of low level executive function stuff. Organizing your schedule or whatever, making phone calls. You can't do that with creativity because it kind of just like arrives and you've got to be sat back.

[Trevor Wallace]

Yeah. And there's days where I try to force creativity doesn't hit whether I'm like tired and I go, well, I got to just work out. Workout usually helps with creativity. And then I work out and I'm sitting, I'm trying to write or I'm trying to come up with something and I'm just getting, I'm drawing blanks. And sometimes that's just the nature of the game. You can't create creativity. But you can try and you can. Maybe instead of saying, well, instead of figuring out a new TV show idea, how about I just take an old bit that I've been working on forever, see if there's anything new. It's like, you don't have to come up with your biggest idea. Then you can still kind of like be like, okay, I'm not feeling as creative. What's old joke I've been doing? How can I punch that up a little bit? Or how can I just listen to some stuff back to kind of like, like put you in that right zone. But you're really right. It's. You can't white knuckle through it. And that's why I think also setting alone time for yourself, me personally, is when so many people have so many creative thoughts in the shower.

[Chris Williamson]

Shower thoughts and toilet thoughts, dude, shower, toilet.

[Trevor Wallace]

And also driving because you're just, you're not staring at a screen, you're zoned out. So finding those moments where even if I'm feeling not creative, I just go, let me just go to a mall. Let me just get out. Let me go get a, let me not make a coffee here.

[Chris Williamson]

Let me be around people at a mall.

[Trevor Wallace]

Yeah, let me go get, let me go get a coffee. Let me. Instead of making one. And it's not for the coffee, it's for the fact of like, what's out there. Creativity is like fishing. You're like, what, what's out there? If I go to a farmer's Market. Am I going to get any? Am I going to catch anything? And you might think you have something. You're like, oh, dude, look, look. What's this guy here? He's got, like a weird, like, quilt on his head. What's that? You know, and you're like, you're trying to. You're. You're getting, like sparks of creativ. And you're. And you're looking around and, oh, is this. Is everyone wearing Birkenstocks? Oh, is that a video idea? And you're in, but you're just. You're piecing it together. You can't just sit at home and be like, what's funny? What's funny? I mean, you can. You obviously can. But for me, I gotta. I gotta feel connected. I gotta feel something. People will pitch me ideas all the time. And I go, like, I see why that's funny, but, like, I don't have an emotional connection to it. But then, you know, I get cut off by a cyber truck. And. Do you. Do you have one?

[Chris Williamson]

No, no, no, of course not.

[Trevor Wallace]

Chris, you have the build of a guy who'd have a cybertruck.

[Chris Williamson]

What is that? Give me the archetype of the cybertruck owner.

[Trevor Wallace]

You.

[Chris Williamson]

Why? What's that? What is this?

[Trevor Wallace]

Austin, Texas? Well, the British thing, I think, is a front.

[Chris Williamson]

How long it is a fake accent.

[Trevor Wallace]

You moved here from Dayton, Ohio. What's your best American accent?

[Chris Williamson]

There isn't one. Sorry, you can't get an American accent out of me can do lots of British accents, but you can do a.

[Trevor Wallace]

British accent because it's an accent to you.

[Chris Williamson]

That's true. Boom.

[Trevor Wallace]

Yeah, it is usa.

[Chris Williamson]

My Instagram bio is fake. British accent.

[Trevor Wallace]

Perfect.

[Chris Williamson]

Yeah.

[Trevor Wallace]

The average cybertruck owner is a guy with a Patagonia vest. He's like a tech guy who got kind of like, not the respect he wanted.

[Chris Williamson]

Okay.

[Trevor Wallace]

And a truck to him is too expensive to fill up the gas. And he goes like, I want to be the badass at work, but, like, I also want to be the tech guy. They want to.

[Chris Williamson]

Okay, so it's like the. It's like the midlife crisis sports car dude, but for the, like, iPhone. 17 generation.

[Trevor Wallace]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Chris Williamson]

Okay, so there's a lot of compensation. So you're saying I'm compensating, correct?

[Trevor Wallace]

Okay, no, I'm not saying you're compensating at all. But you said you. You live in Austin, Texas. Sorry to dox you. What's your home address? Yeah, but Austin, Texas is the hub.

[Chris Williamson]

Of There's a lot of cybertruck.

[Trevor Wallace]

So I could feel. What do you drive?

[Chris Williamson]

Camaro. 6.2 liter V8. Camaro? Yeah. Compensating still just in a different direction. Different fucking beautiful car.

[Trevor Wallace]

Beautiful car. I don't think you drive a cybertruck, but if you did, I would say, but I.

[Chris Williamson]

You got cut off by a cybertruck.

[Trevor Wallace]

It's like I have to feel an emotional connection to the creativity and I need a. Why I get caught up by a cybertruck. Ah, pissed me off. Why? And then I catch up and I see the guy and I go, well, that's why, guy. It's this guy who got this car and now he thinks he's some status guy. He thinks he's like elite. He thinks he's like futuristic. And it's like, then I. Everything I make fun of isn't even.

[Chris Williamson]

About like, is that the genesis of the cybertruck bit? Did you get cut off by a cyber truck?

[Trevor Wallace]

Yeah.

[Chris Williamson]

You did a video about the cyber truck?

[Trevor Wallace]

Well, you know what it was is I was, I, I was, I was in a. He had a cyber truck, right. And I was in it. And just like how he was like, like describing it and he's like, yeah, it's got air conditioned. I'm like, yeah, of course it has air conditioning. Yeah, it's got a reverse camera. Every car, Kia Sorento has reversed. And how he was talking about it is like, it's just so futuristic. And I just was like, you're a different person after getting. Well, yeah, but like he just was a different person. Like, I think he had a three series before that. And then he gets this car and he's like this. Now he's like a tech guy and now he's like telling me about like the Dow Jones. I'm like, what do you know about any of this? So it's just like that Persona. And then I kind of started seeing them everywhere. And then I go, dude, there's a kind of a theme every time you see a cyber truck. It's kind of in and around the same guy. Yeah. So that's when I get excited and that's when the mental editing comes up. And I go, okay, Cybertruck's very popular. This has great SEO online. People know about cybertrucks. I can make fun of this. What's the type of guy I love making fun of a. A, A thing or an like an object or like a car? Because now it. The shareability is crazy because then everyone.

[Chris Williamson]

Goes, oh, this is just like John.

[Trevor Wallace]

John. You have a cyber truck, Mark. You have a cyber truck. And it's like, what's going to make people either share it because it's funny or share it because it's relatable to somebody they know. So for me, that's from my brain. I, like, love that. When I, like, am onto something, I go, like. Because sometimes I'm spitballing, I go, ah, what about this car? No. What of this car? No. And then I Then, like, the cybertruck comes around and I can picture the, like, character I'd play with the video. And I go, yes, yes. And it's like. It's like I just. It just flows when. When a good idea connects, you might have one box unchecked, but for the most part you're like, and he's gonna dress like this. And we can shoot it here and we can. And it, like, it just.

[Chris Williamson]

It has. Forcing it.

[Trevor Wallace]

Yeah. It has this, like, synchronicity to it. Is that the right word?

[Chris Williamson]

Synchronicity?

[Trevor Wallace]

Synchronicity. Sorry, I need to finish this drink. But it. It, like. Like, it. You feel it come together. And there's jokes that I have that come to me so easy that I go, like, this has to be somebody else's joke, because this came to me so easy. But it's a. But it's an experience that happened to me, so I know it's not somebody else's. I mean, but it comes to you so easy. You're like, this is this. Like, this is just a blessing from the creative gods.

[Chris Williamson]

Yeah. I mean, again, I have the most Playmobil, my first live show, sort of equivalent of this. But I know that in order to make the live show that I'm doing at the moment, the Self Discovery show, energized, there needs to be funny bits, not just at the start, which was to kind of, like, release tension. Yeah. Because when I went in and the first version of the show that I did two years ago, there was no laugh. It was kind of like straight off the bat, straight into ideas, and people were 10 minutes in and there was tension in the room because they were like, when am I supposed to laugh? Do I clap? Like, do I. Yeah. What do I do here? Like, what am I supposed to do? So I'm like, okay, if we just fucking work the tension out in the room anyway, there's a bit. I'm using Lizzo as an example for people whose opinions and deeds are far apart. Like, online people can say that they're real, charitable, caring, philanthropic, you know, Empathetic whilst not actually having to do it because you're able to say a thing whilst doing something else. The distance between opinions and deeds has never been greater. Like Lizzo. And this was when I was in Australia. I was just talking about the fact that she was, you know, helping these bigger girls by pushing their careers and giving them a platform. And as I said that I was like, struck, presumably a structurally reinforced platform. And that's like one of the biggest out of nowhere bits of the night. Because people don't see it coming. Because I didn't see it coming, coming. And I'm like, I just say the thing that I said because it came to my mind while I was in Melbourne or. Or Brisbane or whenever I was a year ago. And that's still a part of the set now moving forward. Yeah, I'm like, oh, like, that's really cool. So the fact that you feel like, oh, this was just given to me, like, where the did that come from?

[Trevor Wallace]

Dude, when I riff, I don't even. Like, that's the funniest comes to me riffing on stage. And I have no idea where it came from. Or in filming videos. This guy Churlies, who I've made so many videos with throughout the years, done a lot of sketch. It's like there's just certain people that bring the riff out of you and there's certain crowds that bring the riff out of you. And when him and I would film videos together, it's like we would go in there with like a premise of like, okay, we should make a video where, you know, here's the end goal. And how we get there is different. It's very like kind of like Reno911 and like Seinfeld, a lot of those shows. Or like how Larry David likes to shoot. It's like just get to the end goal of you're mad at her because she did this. And then you just. When you're around the right crowds or the right people, they just bring. And you don't even know where they're coming from.

[Chris Williamson]

People.

[Trevor Wallace]

How did you think of that? I'm like, I don't know.

[Chris Williamson]

When I watched you and you especially Jimmy Carr as well, and Matt Rife. When I watch you guys riff on stage, it is like, how the living fuck does that come spontaneously? Who's that? Who's that really famous freestyle rap guy? Harry Mack.

[Trevor Wallace]

Harry Mack. I know him.

[Chris Williamson]

It's like watching Harry Mack.

[Trevor Wallace]

Yeah, yeah.

[Chris Williamson]

This is the most high wire act. Cause if you don't say something funny after You've just popped some guy in the front row and you're like, oh, what's going on, man? Oh, okay. And. Oh, okay. That's the, like, starter Pistols got fired of. Like, I'm gonna fuck with you now. And if you don't do it, he kind of wins, Right. And you kind of look like a fool or a bully or someone. That's not cool. And you're like, oh, fuck. Now I've got to win the crowd back.

[Trevor Wallace]

Yeah.

[Chris Williamson]

So the doing that under pressure, under tension, it's just super fucking impressive. It's really, really, really impressive. Like, we did the first show, I told you, first show in New York, we had some problems getting people in. They were doing like extra bag checks at the start.

[Trevor Wallace]

So do you have one of those crowds? No. You bring a lot of guns?

[Chris Williamson]

No, it's just. I don't know, Something was going on and fucking Alex is running around trying to fix shit. And my warmup that I brought with me plays music for 30 minutes. Fucking unbelievable. Like, country blues stuff. And he's dialed this set in, like, perfectly. And he knows it from start to finish without looking at a clock for like 29 minutes, 30 seconds, like, done. And he's off. And then I'm up and he just gets like a little message from on his stage wedge. He's going, hey, man, we just need you to extend by 15 minutes. He's like, it's the first show of Talk Tour. It's the. It's the biggest show that we're doing. It's a town hall on a Thursday in the middle of Manhattan. It's sold out. Everyone's looking at me. It's like, yeah, we need you to extend by 15 minutes. He's like. And he just did, like, just pulled out, like unreal songs out of nowhere that he hadn't practiced, he hadn't prepped. Like, not knowing the tuning of his guitar, not knowing this. It was so cool.

[Trevor Wallace]

Well, I love being put on the spot. I think that's why crowd work. Sometimes I'll like and listen. There's so many. And the parts that I don't say to them back are funny. Those get edited out. Yeah. I post a minute 30 clip. It was a three minute interaction, whatever it is. But those parts that I like, when you're being put on pressure, that's when like, your body is in like fight or flight. And it takes all this creative juices and all of its years of training comedically to be like, just what you know and you're not thinking about anything else. You're not thinking about a doctor's appointment you got to go to. You're not thinking about what time you're flat. You're just. You're so present. And when you're present, that's when you're just. I. I just love that feeling when. When everything creatively just leads to that moment because you're just responding, but you're.

[Chris Williamson]

Just present without thinking. Really? Well, yeah.

[Trevor Wallace]

I mean, it's like, I remember I did improv classes when I first moved to la. Hey now. And they, like, anytime I would, like, think of a joke to say, it would always bomb because it, like. Like, I would just respond. Think was. Yeah, those are always the funniest. But, like, if you had, like, a joke loaded up, time goes by, and maybe the joke was funny 10 seconds ago, but you.

[Chris Williamson]

You.

[Trevor Wallace]

But they didn't stop talking yet. Or. Or you. You said something funny. I go, I got something to say. But you keep talking. It's like the funnier thing to respond. What they finished with, not what they interjected with. What, what, What? Like, middle through.

[Chris Williamson]

Yeah.

[Trevor Wallace]

So I think to the effect of crowd work, it's like, you're just. You're. You're present. I'm. I mean, like, it. It's also like, I'm. I've been doing. I'm on. Let's say I'm on stage for, like, 30 minutes. I'm like, I'm fired up. I'm. I'm warmed up. I'm. I'm fully in. I'm, you know, I'm. I'm dialed in if crowd work happens right in the beginning of the show. So it takes me a second to be like, wait, what? Hold on. Because there's no, like, so there's no stakes established yet in the show yet. Sometimes there is, but, like, sometimes I'm like. It's like, sometimes I'm like, let me just. Let me get comfortable in this room first. Somebody might yell something crazy in the beginning. I'll be like, what did you say? Okay, kind of, like, dab with it, start cooking with the crowd, going off my, like, guided material. And then 20 minutes later, I'll be like, hold on. You said you had a bow constrictor as your first blow job. And then I'll bring it back, you know, because I'm like, let me warm up real quick. You can't just start yelling this. It's like. Because I want to feel. It's, like, working out. I don't want to just go and hit my pr Right off the bat, it's like, let me kind of like let me do some, some lunges real quick.

[Chris Williamson]

A good term for that is called cold barring. So you go into the gym and the bar is still cold and you try and cold bar your one rep max. It's like you can't. Cold bar, great crowd work. Like you need to actually get into it a little bit. But I think to go back to what you said at the very beginning, which is we love people that love something. Like somebody that's got a passion. And I think part of the reason is that person probably gets into a flow state at some point. They're writing music.

[Trevor Wallace]

Yeah.

[Chris Williamson]

And they're just like obsessing and maybe they're not even right. Maybe they're just editing the song and they're trying to find like what's the perfect fucking kick drum. Like I need to, like I need to lose a little bit of this low end here. Or it's someone that's drawing and time just stops and they're just, it's them. And whatever it is that they're trying to create or someone's writing a comedy bit or they're doing this on stage or you know, playing fucking pickleball, whatever it is. Like this is why hobbies are cool and compelling and the fact that increasingly people don't have pursuits that make them feel like that. I think it's like a real. You can relate at the feet of bullshit jobs and cost of living and the fucking dopamine and the world's news and all the rest of it. That's true. But if you don't have at least like one thing, and I guess that could even be probably like playing with your kids, being like, fuck. Like I'm just so like in the zone with my kids. I'm having such a good time and time's completely stopped here. But if you don't have anything, I think it's gonna be really tough to feel like I live a meaningful life if you're kind of just moving from neurotic, obsessive echo fucking self reinforcing thought loop thing to the next thing to the next thing, to the next thing, to the next thing. It's like, at what point are you just there and you're kind of out of your own head and just doing the thing.

[Trevor Wallace]

So what do you tell people that feel like they're working a dead end job and they're like, I don't know if I have any hobbies and I just, I don't have any time to work. Life balance.

[Chris Williamson]

It's rough, man. I mean, there's material constraints to what people can do. And this is always the issue of trying to talk about this sort of stuff online that the. Well, easy for you to. That is the sort of immediate response. And in some ways, like rightly so, because if you. You are a person who doesn't have the opportunity to. You gotta work two jobs and raise a kid and do the rest of it. Trying to get some sort of a qualification like that sucks. But your goal, presumably, is not to do that forever. Your goal is to be able to do that, to reach escape velocity so that you can have this opportunity. And this is why I think people that criticize or people that have an issue with anyone talking about how to manage money or move up the property ladder or whatever it might be, they're like, well, this is completely out of touch. And he goes, well, it's only out of touch with the stage that you're at now, because presumably your goal from the stage you're at now is to get to the stage where this sort of conversation is of use to you. So I'm kind of skeptical. It makes me sad when I see cynicism or criticism on the Internet of people talking about how to go from 50 to 60, as opposed to always just going from 0 to 1 or 0 to 10, like, not everybody's at the beginning of their journey. And if you want to learn about, okay, what do you do when you actually get a little bit of momentum under your wings? There's a very different problem. Being at the start of your journey and being like, it's all upside. I can't fail. As opposed to going, hmm, what's it going to be like the first time that you eat shit or get a demotion or you don't hit your target in your sales job, or you release a blog post that eats shit compared with the last one, whatever it might be. Oh, well, actually, that is a really challenging hurdle to try and overcome. It just feels a little bit less sort of like underdog philanthropy. Like, we're raising up the fucking. Like the people that are struggling. Because as you get further and further up any sort of a journey, there's fewer and fewer people liking, right? Because by definition, people that get to 50 or 70 or 90 are in the smaller percentage than the people that are the very beginning. It's like, to me, that would be pretty interesting too, because it's saying, hey, I know that you might be at this stage, but watch out, because this Thing's coming, right? You haven't had a video take off, or you haven't had a blog post take off, or you haven't managed to change careers to the one that you want to. But when you do, you're going to encounter this thing. And this thing is going to be hard in a really different way because you're going to feel like, oh, what if I dropped off? What if my self worth has changed now? What if I can't be as creative as I used to be in the past? Those things are. They're useful to see. But the only solution that I think that makes any sense is like, even if you only had 20 minutes or 30 minutes today, what is something that if you knew it was on your calendar for the day, it would make getting out of bed way easier.

[Trevor Wallace]

It would excite you. Yeah.

[Chris Williamson]

You're like, fuck, I can't wait. For instance, today, I had a good night's sleep last night, even though I've been flying a lot again, as you know, like, tour's not exactly great on the sleep pattern stuff. And I woke up this morning and I was like, fucking Trevor and Huberman back to back. And all my friends, two alpha males. Yeah. Two sigmas. This is fucking sick. Like, this is a good day. I'm like, okay, I can deal with the admin, I can deal with the emails. I can deal with the bullshit episode on Tucker Carlson just went out as we're doing this episode. I assume that I'm canceled by now, but I'm just like, I'm fired up to do this thing. And if you can find half an hour of your day where you're like, pickleball is kind of an example. Cause people get obsessed with it. You're like, if you fucking love that. And you know that Monday's gonna be pickleball day. And you get up on the morning and you're working the kiosk in a fucking. Where was it?

[Trevor Wallace]

Costco.

[Chris Williamson]

Costco. You're like, oh, God. But tonight I get to go Monday pickleball. Like, is. And maybe I see that hot girl again that I've been talking to. Or maybe I get to get better at myself.

[Trevor Wallace]

That's that feel. Dude. I had a Spanish class with this girl and her name was Bailey. And I. I would get so excited on Monday just in hopes that she'd ask me about my weekend. Oh, God, she has like three kids now. But the. Somebody beat me to it. Probably multiple people. She has three babies.

[Chris Williamson]

She's Spanish. If she's Mexican, that fertility Explains a lot.

[Trevor Wallace]

No, she was a white girl, but kind of went the stolen valor route. She'd kind of pencil in her eyebrows. She thought she was Latina, but honestly, dude, I mean she had a, she had an ass. So yeah, you could, yeah, she could lop as Latina. Yeah, she, she could. Yeah, yeah, she, yeah, she could pass. But she, she went, oh man. But, but that, that feeling of like, oh, she. I'll see her Monday morning in, in Spanish class. Maybe that's why it felt like she might be a little Latina's Spanish class. But, but to your point, I would get excited at my day job for lunch because everybody in the office would go out to lunch and I would say, oh cool, I can now go to the break room and edit my videos freely. So I would get excited for people to leave. I would get like, find. And it was a 20 to 30 minute window where I could like go, oh, if I edit now then I can go to the open mic later. And I like, I've always been like a, a Google calendar guy in my head where I'm just, it's all blocked. So I go, okay, if we'll, If I do 20 minutes now, then I have that free. And I, but like, I would obsess over, like, when can I, when can I film this week? When can I edit this week? I would sneak away and, and shoot a, a video upstairs. My old day job. And then I would be like in my lunch break, I would turn my laptop against a wall so nobody else in the break room could see it and it would look like I'm working. Nobody ever in the office ever saw me work as hard as I did when I was editing because I had like a 20 minute constraint. Same to the pressure thing. It's like if I have a whole week to get a video done, I'm gonna dilly dally around the whole week and I'll probably finish it Sunday night at midnight with when. If there's like a deadline. I was the same way with papers in college. I didn't give a, until there was a deadline. So also giving yourself a deadline for goals of saying like, okay, yeah, you work from 5pm to midnight and you go, okay, well I have up until 4pm to get this done because I gotta do the closing shift tonight. Like that, that deadline mentality that really, I gave myself a small goal of one video a week and I like would obsess over that and I, I just, I loved it. I would find time to, to think.

[Chris Williamson]

It's what I Said before, look at how much reverence and enjoyment you have for what should be the shittest period of your career where you're like, nobody knew who I was. I had a couple of videos that had blown up. I didn't have the following. I wasn't flying around the country playing all of these shows. I certainly wasn't selling out the fucking Beacon Theater in New York. This is. And it's kind of hard to say. It's a bit of an unteachable lesson that the golden years are often the first ones. But you're gonna look back on the start of this relationship, you know? Oh, do you remember before we had kids and we lived in that pokey apartment in the Upper east side, and we could hear the pigeons outside, but it was so beautiful. And we had Saturday mornings to ourselves, and we go to the dog park and blah, blah, bl. Or remember when we first founded the business and we didn't have any idea what we were doing? And we had that pitch meeting and we crushed it, but we slept under the desk the night before and we ordered Domino. Like, those are the golden years.

[Trevor Wallace]

Yeah, there's a good chance a lot of people listening to this right now are in their golden years, but they're so stressed about the future, they don't realize it.

[Chris Williamson]

Yes, yes. So true. Morgan Housel has this fucking unreal article. He says, golden years only exist in the past. Like, nobody ever believes they're growing. They're living through a golden era.

[Trevor Wallace]

Yeah, there's a good chance I'm in my golden years right now. But I'm just like, well, why can't I say, well? Well, Seattle sold out. But why isn't Portland? You know? Like, there's so many. There's so many things that can take you away from it, and it's almost good that it takes you away from it. I'm not a big reflect guy. Like, sure, I'll do the Beacon on Saturday. And I'll be like, yeah, cool. But this YouTube short bomb.

[Chris Williamson]

Yeah, yeah.

[Trevor Wallace]

Or it's like, okay, cool, but what's the next show? So, like, Sadie, how's that selling? I don't. I don't. My mom asked me if I ever am enjoying anything that I'm doing because I've done a lot of really cool. And she goes, do you enjoy this? And I go, I enjoy it. Months later, I go, like, I shot my special in Austin and I did three shows with Paramount, and I was like, unreal, unreal. So happy with it. And then, like, there's A photo in my kitchen of the last night in the Paramount. And like I walk past it every day. And then like a couple months later, I looked at, I was like, holy, man. I can't believe that I did that. But for me, I can't, I can't in the moment feel it. I, I'm, I walk into it. I'll walk into the Beacon on Saturday, I'll look at, I say, ah, this is beautiful. Now it's time to worry about my set. You know, it won't be until months later that I'm just sitting there like, dude, the Beacon.

[Chris Williamson]

I did that.

[Trevor Wallace]

Yeah, it, but. And I don't know what that is because I'm just always worried about the future. So being in these golden years thing, it's like, dude, I mean, listen, I'll probably be 62, performing at a loony bin in Tulsa, Oklahoma. Be like, you're working for chicken tenders and a shot of Jack Daniels. Like, I did the Beacon back in the day. You. I'll be thinking about how good it currently is right now, but I don't realize it right now. I am doing it right now. And I'm, I feel like I'm not, I feel like I'm still like, does anybody care? Should I go to an open mic? Should I delete my account? Now it's being dramatic, but I feel like I'm in the golden years. But I don't feel like I'm in the golden years until five years down the road I'll be like, dude, that was incredible. I was, I, I was doing everything I wanted. I was, I, I have employees, I have a house, I'm doing everything that I need. I'm. But I'm not like appreciating because I'm always just head down. What's next? What's next? What's next?

[Chris Williamson]

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[Trevor Wallace]

I also think that's what has made dating so hard, because you're like, yeah, I'm dating this person right now. But. But with social media and. And you see your whole ins. I mean, my Instagram, I don't know about yours. It's just like, there's hot women everywhere, and there's just temptations everywhere. You're like, yeah, this girl's awesome. I love this woman. But you're also like, but. And then you're like, what are these voices coming in? So I feel that. And. And also people, even before they start dating somebody, where they're swiping and they match with somebody, like, that's cool. What else is out there? What else is out there? I don't know.

[Chris Williamson]

Options are difficult, man. You know, there's this cool idea called the Paradox of Choice by Barry Schwartz. Did this TED Talk. I remember when I first. I remember where I was when I was listening to this, like over 10 years ago driving through Newcastle. It basically says the beer, Barry Schwartz Paradise.

[Trevor Wallace]

Newcastle.

[Chris Williamson]

Yeah, that's where I'm from.

[Trevor Wallace]

The beer.

[Chris Williamson]

Yeah. Newcastle Brown Ale. Sorry, have you drank it?

[Trevor Wallace]

Yeah.

[Chris Williamson]

That's good.

[Trevor Wallace]

Sorry, I was getting.

[Chris Williamson]

Not at all. Have you ever played Newcastle? Have you done anywhere in anything in the uk?

[Trevor Wallace]

No, I haven't. I want to. I need to.

[Chris Williamson]

They'd like you.

[Trevor Wallace]

I would. No, I. I know I would do. I would. I really want you to.

[Chris Williamson]

Lining that up. You must be lining up.

[Trevor Wallace]

Yeah, we're working on. We're. We're working on London. I. I've done Australia, which is where I thought everybody was here from this morning. But. No, sorry, I didn't mean.

[Chris Williamson]

Bad intro to everyone. It's like you're Australia and you're Australian and you're New Zealand.

[Trevor Wallace]

Well, everybody in LA has a cool accent and I'm like, nobody from LA is from la. Like everybody you meet here, in every bigger production you go to in LA for a shoot or something, there's always like one token Australian and you're like, God, I need an Australian around me. You remember where you're.

[Chris Williamson]

Where I was where I was listening to this. Fifty years ago, if you went into the jeans store to try and buy a pair of jeans, there would be one type of jean and there'd maybe be in different waist sizes, but. But you walk out and maybe they're not perfect for you, but you don't feel much regret about your purchase because there were no other options. Fast forward 50 years to now and do you want boot cut or skinny ripped, stretched, bleached? Do you want them to be cropped? Do you want them to be low rise, high rise? Do you want them to be loose? If you don't choose the precise perfect pair of jeans, it's your fault. Previously it was because reality constrained your options. Now it's because your ability to choose appropriately was wrong. So you get much more buyers remorse when there's loads of options than when there's none. And this like analysis paralysis thing is why you don't make anything and you're always dissatisfied. And it's the same thing with partners.

[Trevor Wallace]

Absolutely. Well, it's the same thing with like, there's so much fast fashion, there's so much fast trends. It's like I'm always fascinated at how, how I edit is how based on people scroll. Like I study how people scroll. At airports, at restaurants, people scroll, no headphones on, and they're like boom, boom, boom. So for me, I go, how can I catch your attention when it's usually a video where I'm talking? So it's like, I need subtitles, I need to catch their attention because they're going, boom, boom, scroll, scroll. What am I going to do in that 0.5 seconds that's going to catch their attention because that's just the world we're living in. Everything is just like, next, next, next, next, next, next. How can I, in a next, next, next world be like. And stuff, stop. And there's so many options. And it's, it's, it's to your point. It's like, that's why I haven't made a TV show. I go, I have this idea. And they go, well, I'll set you up with it and then we'll do this. And then, and then I'm like, there's too many options. If I want to make a sketch right now, I call one guy, he shoots it, he edits it, it's out. So that's the, that's the, the Gene.

[Chris Williamson]

Stakes are low as well. The stakes are a little bit low. It's like, if I try and do this TV show and it flops well, that is my chart. As opposed to knowing, well, I do the video this week and it doesn't work, and then I do another one next week and maybe it redeems me, like, ah, when the stakes are a little bit lower, it's easier. But that's again, that's the same advantage that you have at the start of your journey. No one's scrutinizing you. No one's like, Trevor Wallace fall off when no one knows, no one knew who he was.

[Trevor Wallace]

Yeah, yeah.

[Chris Williamson]

I think about that habituation thing, sort of the balance between, wow, this thing's really big and impressive and I want to enjoy it at the time, but the more that I enjoy it, at least in my experience, the more it causes me to get a little bit more sort of nervy and in my own head about what's going on. And that's not very good for performance.

[Trevor Wallace]

Correct.

[Chris Williamson]

The worst thing, I'm trying to play cool whilst also trying to appreciate what's going on whilst also not looking over the shoulder of the present moment, whilst also not, not doing it so much that you're like, oh my God, it's such a big deal. It's the beacon I'm gonna up.

[Trevor Wallace]

Well, yeah, I, I, When I did the, the Chicago theater, that was probably one of the, the biggest venues I've ever done. And I remember there was a moment where I walk out on stage and it's a long walk from the side stage to the center stage. It's this loud ass cheer. And I'm like, dude, I gotta get to the mic and tell a joke before I start. Start overanalyzing. Like, holy. This is because for me, the second I tell a joke, I'm like locked in. I always to this day and I. This was just a something I learned from open mics. And just myself is like, I feel like I always have to get a joke out as quick as possible so the audience can be like, oh, we trust this guy. Whether his next five jokes are at one, he gotta trust right off the bat. So I come out with something good.

[Chris Williamson]

First impression, so to speak.

[Trevor Wallace]

First impression, right? The second you walk on stage based on what you're wearing, how you look, look every. They're judging everything. So if your first joke is funny, they go, okay, we like this guy. That's something I learned from just starting out doing open mics and doing random showcases inside of a Marie Calendars, which is a pie shop here in America. So I would always try to find a joke as fast as possible. And I still do that to this day. Granted, a lot of these people follow me online and love me, but I'm still like, you guys invested your time, money, this I. You're getting funny out the gate. I'm not here to lollygate, but when I. I'm walking out there and I see how big this is, I see people cheering, I go, dude, I gotta get to that mic so I can lock in. Because if I'm out here any longer, well, the same thing for the special. I'm just standing there, like, taking it all in. I'm like, nope. I'm thinking, I'm thinking, I'm. I'm thinking I'm not doing my set. And I'm like, I'm like, oh, there's people. Holy. There's people up there. Like, people like, how are my jokes gonna exceed their expectations? Or standing up? And they're so excited. I'm like, these aren't thoughts I have on the regular. So I'm like, once I just get in and do what I feel like I was meant to do, that's when the show is great. But every once in a while, I'll take a moment in a big crowd, be like, dude, this is a lot of people. I won't say that, but mentally, this is a lot of people. Like, shut up, get back to the set. Because I'm not. I'm not thinking about the foot. I'm like, off somewhere.

[Chris Williamson]

Isn't that strange, though? The whole reason that you do this. Well, you do it for. You do it to feel proud of your performance and you do it to make people laugh and you do it to make money. Like, largely, you're doing it for the experience of having done done it. Like, the reason that we do things that we enjoy is to experience doing things that we enjoy. And if the only way that you can perform is to almost fucking disembody yourself. Yeah, you. And it's this weird. It doesn't surprise me that you go, I enjoyed the things that I do. I just enjoyed them. Three months later. And I saw this. I was yesterday on the plane watching a cut of the vlog from New York and Toronto, which was last weekend. And I'm like, holy fuck.

[Trevor Wallace]

Yeah.

[Chris Williamson]

Yeah, that thing happened. And that thing happened. I'm like, hang on, where was I when that thing was happening to me? Like, where was. Where was I in my mind?

[Trevor Wallace]

You're there, but you're not there mentally. You're somewhere else. Yeah, that was a good point. When I did my first tour, the videographer was. I was like, ah, this vlog didn't do very good numbers. He's like, that's not what this is for. He's like, this vlog is so you can watch it back years later and be like, dude, how cool is that that I got to tour the US with my best friend? At the time, it was still best friend, but we toured together and was like, how sick is that that you got to do this? And like, to your point, I'm there. I'm not thinking about the vlog and how cool is videos. I'm thinking about the show. I'm thinking about what's next and what I got going on. But then when you watch it back, I almost get this, like, third person. I watch it back, I'm like, dude, this guy's life is so cool. But I'm like, I'm the guy in.

[Chris Williamson]

That was Me Me.

[Trevor Wallace]

But I don't feel like it's almost.

[Chris Williamson]

Yeah, I really think there's something deep here, dude. I really, really do. That Morgan Housel article I was talking about where he says, nobody ever believes that they're living through golden years, uses this great example of him and his wife living in New York, and he's. They've got kids now and he's got the psychology of money, which is sold gazillion copies. Been on the New York Times bestseller charts for like four years straight or something. He was talking to his wife and he was saying, do you remember when we used to live in New York and we didn't have any kids and we'd lie in on a Saturday morning and we'd get to go and have coffee and we could have this wonderful time? Do you remember how amazing it was? Do you remember how free we were? And his wife turns to him and goes, what are you talking about? You were miserable. Like, you had no idea whether you were going to hold your job down. You were scared about the future. We thought we were gonna get kicked out of the house. And what he realizes is, in retrospect, he could see that his fears were a waste of time.

[Trevor Wallace]

I like that.

[Chris Williamson]

And that the successes that he was hoping would come to pass would come to pass. But at the time, all of his fears were really real. Like, I'm gonna miss the first joke, or people are gonna laugh at me, or stuff's not gonna go well, and none of your successes are promised. So you end up with this weird world where in retrospect, you know, that you had nothing to worry about, so you can almost enjoy stuff more. And I guess this is kind of a curse of somebody that isn't obsessive, with high standards, that's trying to achieve. Because the reason that you are getting the outcomes you want is because of your obsession, your attention to detail, your vigilance of. Oh, that might. That could be a little bit better. If only I refined it this tiny little bit more. Okay, well, do you want to do that? And also at the same time, be like, I'm just present, man. I'm free flowing. I'm like, here. Those two things don't comport very well.

[Trevor Wallace]

No. And they feel like they would hate each other. A guy who's compulsive and obsessive over an edit sees a guy at a coffee shop who's like, it'll all work out, man, if people buy. Yeah. Those two guys would never hang out. They would meet each other at a party and be like, that guy's an idiot. That guy's an idiot. So it. It almost feels weird to let myself know, like, hey, I've been doing this independently for seven years, yet every day I go, how am I going to make this happen? I go, well, I have a track record of seven years.

[Chris Williamson]

Years.

[Trevor Wallace]

But. But I'm. I'm like, yeah, but. But how am I gonna. In a week, in a month, in a year? But like, so to his point, if I put myself five years behind when I'm only two years in. I go, ah, dude, how am I gonna make this work another five years? You just, you kind of just do. But you're, you're, you're, you're subconsciously trusting yourself while stressing yourself because you're stressing yourself to the next level. You're like, I gotta get, I gotta get, I gotta get. Right?

[Chris Williamson]

True.

[Trevor Wallace]

But, but it's not like there's no like bumpers like in bowling where it's like course correcting. You're like, I'm just, I gotta, I gotta. And you're just, you're like stressing yourself forward in this weird way where you're like, I trust myself because I'm not looking up job applications. I'm not, I'm not putting the fries in the bag. I'm not doing that. I'm trusting myself. I know that myself. I know what I'm doing is successful and funny. Yet there's still definitely out what is why I've. I've done everything online that I've ever dreamed of times a thousand. You know, I remember I have a photo of a goal list from 2017 that I like to look at every once in a while. It was when I saw my day job, but I, I just quit. I think I just quit my day job in that year. And one of my goals on there was like, get a million views on a video. And now how I was talking to my girlfriend last night about something that stresses me. I'm like, if a video on Instagram doesn't do a million views, I'm like, sad, I'm like depressed about it. But I'm like, that once was my goal for the entire year. One video hit a million views and I wanted like a million views on like Facebook. I don't even. This is pre TikTok. This is like pre Instagram. So it's interesting to see. I lost my train of thought.

[Chris Williamson]

Interesting to see that I'm looking here. I've got like a yearly goals library. That's what you've prompted me to go and look at here. I think me and Dean put some together certainly in 2018, which was hit 20,000 subscribers.

[Trevor Wallace]

Yeah.

[Chris Williamson]

And the problem that you have and the problem that everybody has, so habituation, right. Which is you get a new car and then you get used to it. And the first day that you get your cybertruck, it's amazing. And after that you kind of. The hedonic adaptation sets in. But the same thing happens for goals and the same thing happens for what you want to achieve. So the first time that you played a headline show, just straight up headline show, not just spots, been like, holy fuck, 200 people and it's just me. And now you're looking over the shoulder of the fucking Beacon and going, yeah, I know, but what about Chicago? What about Milwaukee? What about the. Whatever, whatever. So there's this line for every level, there's a devil. And as you keep on getting better at the thing, the level of resolution that you look at it with becomes more refined. You know, you go from like 360p to 1080 to 4k to 8k, and you're like looking, zooming in, zooming in, zooming in, zooming in. And that makes the job harder. But that's why you get better. That's why the people that are the absolute top are the best, because they've continued to zoom in and zoom in and zoom in all time, the lot. And I, I don't know, I think.

[Trevor Wallace]

I'm sorry, Zoom in on what?

[Chris Williamson]

The level of like, resolution that they look at their craft with. You know, for you to deliver a joke that got this size of a laugh five years time, you're like, yeah, but I could have just like clipped the end of that word just a tiny little bit better. My pacing could have been a little bit more. I know that my hands weren't perfect. I know that my body language wasn't perfect. I could have held eye contact on the first person just a second longer. I could have smiled a little bit more. Whatever. However you refine your art form to like, really dial it in. But when you're first starting, you, like, make words come out of mouth. Like, publish blog posts online, draw a.

[Trevor Wallace]

Laugh, say my name.

[Chris Williamson]

Exactly. So as you get better at something, you get better at something and you start to try and do the thing with like an ever increasing skill set, right? Like, you're more refined with what it is that you do. And the problem of that is that as you get better, your standards increase and that you're never done. Like, there's no point at which you'll feel like you've arrived. And I think this is a question that I'm playing with myself, which is like, am I going to regret that in retrospect? Am I going to look back on a career where I was always looking over the shoulder of the present moment for the next thing I was going to do, do? Or is that the game in order to be able to come a high, like, to perform at the Level that you want to. I've kind of got this. I've kind of got this working theory that you. You probably can let go of 5% of the neuroses to gain probably 50% of the presence and the enjoyment. And, yeah, maybe it'll sacrifice a tiny little bit of performance. You'll, like, let a couple of things slide. You'll make a couple of hours, but it might be worse worth, you know, another half of, oh, this is really cool. And I am here, and my mind is where my feet are, as opposed to being like, must get on stage. Must say joke. Must do.

[Trevor Wallace]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Chris Williamson]

I don't know. Balancing those two things, enjoyment in the moment and high standards, They're a really, really tough thing to do.

[Trevor Wallace]

One thing I'm really trying to get over, and I'd love your opinion on this, is, like, if I have a. A video that I really love making and. And I. I'm having fun making it. I'm having fun editing it. I'm so excited. And then I post. My excitement is only as high as the video does after that. At one point, I loved making that video. I loved writing it. I love shooting it. I love editing it. And then I post, and if it does bad, I go, wow, that excitement's now gone. What is that? Is that just the same as, like, if I tell a joke that I really thought was funny and the crowd doesn't laugh.

[Chris Williamson]

Laugh.

[Trevor Wallace]

But it's different for me because if a crowd doesn't laugh at a joke, I go, okay, cool. I have a thousand other. I can now go to or I know. Hour. Now, Now. Okay, that's not funny. But I have another attempt at it in this next set. But when it comes to a video, it's like all this happiness I once had for it. If it does great. And it's like, let's say that Cybertruck video, for example. I had the idea. I got super excited for it. I moved shirt on my schedule ago. We have to shoot this.

[Chris Williamson]

This.

[Trevor Wallace]

I'm obsessed about it. We shoot it. It does great. I go, yeah, that's a perfect storm. But there's also times where I have the same energy and I post and it goes. And I go, what the.

[Chris Williamson]

Yeah. What? Why?

[Trevor Wallace]

Why can I not still have the excitement that I once had with it? Because it didn't do what I thought it was capable of.

[Chris Williamson]

Yeah. I think in a perfect world, it would be lovely to say, I can just do it for the art form, man. I know what is artistically honest, and I know what's funny better than the audience knows what's funny? I don't think you do. I think if you're trying to do something that makes other people laugh and that doesn't happen. This is one of the problems with doing the video thing online. I think at least part of it is the why question. It's like, was it because of the edit? Was it because of the script? Was it because of the acting? Was it because of the joke? Was it the premise? Was it the timing? Maybe it's because the Blue Jays lost it. Like, you know what was the contributing factor and you're going to drive yourself crazy as opposed to really on stage, the reasons that something doesn't work are pretty constrained. It's like wasn't funny enough. Timing wasn't right, Body language wasn't right.

[Trevor Wallace]

Yeah.

[Chris Williamson]

So you only have a few, number of variables. So I think there's going to be less reflection on that. But another part of it, like, generally is just humans are social animals and you don't want to do something that other people don't, don't respect or feel is good. Like, this is why, talking of Tucker Carlson, I thought it was kind of a meme that he doesn't check. He doesn't read the Internet. Like he literally doesn't have access to his own YouTube channel. He doesn't have access to his own Instagram, doesn't read anything at all. And all he does is live on this fucking hundred acre plot of land in Portland, Maine, like the middle of fucking nowhere and does his thing. Turns up. He has, has the talent that he has. He does his thing and then he off. And like that's the only way really, without the feedback mechanism that you can't second guess yourself.

[Trevor Wallace]

That's also what I was thinking. And it's like I'm at this point where I still post all my videos on Instagram and TikTok. It's still me other apps, it's like other people running it. But like, for whatever reason, I still care so much about how video looks on Instagram and TikTok, but I'm so in the weeds, I'm so in it that like I post it and then I'm, I up, I refresh 15 minutes later and it's like, that's not the mind of like a successful CEO. It's, you know, it's like you kind of do like a monthly report or something. And I'm like, okay, maybe it finally is time that I get somebody who uploads for me so I can do that.

[Chris Williamson]

So I can be like a bit of distance.

[Trevor Wallace]

Yeah, just some distance. And if I do look at a video, I look at it a week later instead of day of. And I'm like, my thoughts are, my feeling towards the video are like, like live. You know, it's like I post something this morning and I go, well, how's my day going to be?

[Chris Williamson]

You know, Instead it's like completely determined by how this video performs, which is so stupid. It went well. I'm good. It went badly. I'm a piece of.

[Trevor Wallace]

I mean, dude, it's, it's Michael Blouson, who I do a podcast with. Love the guy. We have the same brain where it's like, I can tell when a video is doing well for him. He can tell when the video is doing well for me. Because it's like, you got a little pep in your step. What's going on? I'm like, Dude, 13 million on this stand up clip. And it's, it's just, I hate that it is the nature of our game, but it's like to your point, we all love to feel like we did something good. The same way that if I turn a blind eye to my Instagram page and I'm not posting anymore, I would still want the social media guy to be like, dude, this hit 10 million. And I'd be like, fuck yeah, that's awesome. Now that shouldn't make my day any better or worse. It should be like, cool, note it down. But it's not like I should, should start skipping around town and everybody gets a raise and I mean, sure, maybe, but like, it, like how much social numbers affect my day is just stupid. I'm like, you know, it's. I know social media is getting to me. When I walk outside and I go, wow, the birds are lovely today. I'm like, dude, you're losing it. They've always been there. Touch grass, buddy.

[Chris Williamson]

Because you hit 40 million today.

[Trevor Wallace]

Yeah, it did pretty well. Yeah, it was at 5.6 million on a standup clip. We'll take it. Base, good, base hit. But for me, it's like, I want to just be a little more disconnected in that Tucker Carlson world. But then there's that voice in my head that fights for it, that goes, yeah, but being online is good because now you know what the trends are. Now you know what to make the videos on.

[Chris Williamson]

But this, this is the kind of the vicious game of social media that there are diamonds in the rough.

[Trevor Wallace]

True.

[Chris Williamson]

Right? You scroll online for long enough and you will come across Something you're like, yeah, that. There's my inspo. Do you know the idea of a signal versus noise? You familiar with this?

[Trevor Wallace]

No, I like this.

[Chris Williamson]

So imagine that you were a trader and you were trading a particular stock and you were to check, check the price of this stock every single day. There would be loads of intraday movement, right? It would be up and down. Or you check it every 30 minutes and then in another version you check it every day. And then in another version you check it every month. And then another, you check it every year. Across a year there is loads of noise. But what you're actually getting is signal, right? Something which is reliable to the trajectory of this thing over time. If you check it every half an hour, it's almost all noise. It doesn't contribute to. You even set it yourself that sometimes video might launch slow and go pick up after five days or whatever. And you're like, huh? That came into line quite nicely because you've prioritized noise over signal. And the only way that you can really sort of select out noise and select for signal is to reduce how frequently you check and to like, do it at bigger chunks of time. Certainly. I know for me, when we started having somebody else post on my behalf, unless I'm like, it's 10am Central Time, I should. A video's going up 30 minutes ago. I don't know that it's gone. And another thing that's been really good is. And this is from my housemate George. He always has a couple of things in the tank and he publishes something that he wrote a few weeks ago. So, you know, let's say that you start off writing, but before you begin, you have four videos, articles, illustrations or whatever. And then number one goes out on week number like four, and then number two goes out on week number five. Yeah, like you're always moving like this. That distance, I think between creation and publish gives you a little bit more.

[Trevor Wallace]

Like, ah, well, it's great because you're also not creating based on last video's performance. If a video bomb, now you're stressed, you're like, I need to hit. And now you're writing being under the pretense of I need a hit. And I swear the Internet knows when a video is forced, the video is forced. The Internet's looking like, no, no.

[Chris Williamson]

Hey, this is desperate energy.

[Trevor Wallace]

Yeah, this is a fun zone, buddy. The videos that always do the best to me are like the ones that I, like, had the most fun creating. So when you distance yourself one to four, like you just said now. That gives you some space to be like, hey, I made this when I wasn't even thinking about these other videos.

[Chris Williamson]

So true.

[Trevor Wallace]

I got it. Yeah, I'm about like. Like two. I'm like a week out every week. But maybe that's not enough time.

[Chris Williamson]

Certainly with this, if you did that, if you did the little bit more inventory buffer plus somebody else posted on your behalf, I think, like, okay, we're starting to create a little bit of distance, right? To get away from the noise and to get into the signal.

[Trevor Wallace]

Yeah, I like that a lot. I've never seen it so clear. Getting a signal. I've never seen it so clear. But I also don't know any CEO who is standing over the shoulder looking at their. Their Squarespace or the Shopify every 30 minutes, like, what's it selling? What's it selling? What's it selling? It's like they come in the morning, how'd we do? Good, bad, okay. They're not refreshing.

[Chris Williamson]

I totally get it, and I think you're right. But I wouldn't be too hard on yourself, because two things. First off, this is the training mode that got you to where you are. It's the same founder mentality, like, startup demon mode DJ thing that everybody who rips a project off a launchpad has. It's like, oh, I did everything. I, like, came up with the ideas and I worked out, like, what. What's my handle going to be on social media? And, like, do I use After Effects or do I need to use Premiere Pro? Or, like, is Capcut any good? I don't know. And how do I fuck? I exported it in the wrong. Like, it's 25 frames per second or 24:30. Looks weird. Like, you know all of these things. Things. So now, you know, getting from 97 to 98 are the inheritor of the guy that got from 0 to 1 and then got from like 10 to 20 and 20 to 30. And you're like, okay, all of that stuff was good for then, but the tools that got you here don't always get you there. They don't always get you to the next thing. It's like, let's say you've got a big journey to do, and part of the journey involves you getting across a river. River. You're like, okay, I've got this boat. I'm like, fucking rowing across this river. And now you're on land and you realize that you're still carrying a fucking boat. You're like, that was a tool for that. I Needed for then.

[Trevor Wallace]

I like that. I think I need it now.

[Chris Williamson]

But it's hard to let go of because you're like, I know this works.

[Trevor Wallace]

I might need this later on.

[Chris Williamson]

Exactly.

[Trevor Wallace]

Or you almost have like a self esteem or like a pride. You're like, yeah, but I've always been that. I've always been. But there's certain things that I can leave behind. It doesn't mean that I don't know how to use it anymore.

[Chris Williamson]

I mean, the posting, for instance, is a really good one.

[Trevor Wallace]

Yeah, I know.

[Chris Williamson]

Because it's such a low skill level thing and presuming that you like trust somebody to be the poster, you're like, I can probably get someone else to press the button for me. Yeah, yeah, you can probably get. I remember when we first started using a company to do our Instagram clips and it was like we would get them to do it and send it to us for us to post. And then you're like involving yourself unnecessarily in the process of doing the thing. Yeah, but this is, is. I have this idea called the Lonely Chapter which is like, as you move through any stages of development, it's hard to resonate with an old set of friends and you're worried about whether or not you're doing the right thing. And each different hurdle that you get over is part of the selection mechanism of why people don't change. It's the same as why people don't delegate responsibility. They're terrified. They're like, fuck, what's the same? Yeah, if I don't do this thing, what if it goes wrong? What if something. I don't know, I've got scarcity mindset. I'm concerned about the future. Like, ah, that.

[Trevor Wallace]

Yeah, well, it's. I've had this trait before where I've hired somebody and then I go, you know, I'll just do it myself. And it's like those, let's call it three employees who give me that made it that much harder for me to find that person. But then I, I had a guy worked for me before, his name was Zach and he was like the best employee who came in and absolutely crushed. I go, dude, you changed my whole perspective of what adding somebody to the team can be. I had had previous examples where I found like, I wish there was difference here or like, maybe you are. You kind of knew something better about that. But like I was skeptical about hiring certain positions. I was skeptical about hiring like a everyday producer. And then I hired this person. I was like, oh, this is what somebody who is good at this job looks like it freed up so much. It was a, it allowed me to, you know, double my production and make it look that much better and really up the value of it. But I was so scared for so long because I was like, yeah, but this person kind of sucked or that person kind of sucked or freelancing with this guy sucked. So sure, but, but it's that same default of, of going to the negative versus the positive. Well, I could hire. Sorry, what you say?

[Chris Williamson]

No, I, I, somebody asked the, the exact same question at the live show last week which was like I work 70, I say 70 or 80 hours a week. That dude in Toronto. So I work 70 or 80 hours a week at this startup and I'm terrified of relinquishing any control at all and I need to make my first hire. And as like one good bit of advice is try and have that first hire be someone that goes well because if it goes badly, you learn the lesson that you learned which is like I can't trust people and all that an employee is, is an unreliable GPT that I need to like peer over the shoulder of and triple check their work. And it just makes me even more vigilant. I'm just vigilant on behalf of somebody else as opposed to myself.

[Trevor Wallace]

Wow, that's great.

[Chris Williamson]

I think this is, Honestly, dude, despite the fact that you're playing at, you know, such a huge level on social media, I really think this is just par for the course of like anybody in a startup that's trying to build a business and they're like, that's also it.

[Trevor Wallace]

It's like at one point I was only myself doing this and now it's like I'm running this, you know, company, that organization. Yeah, legit money. And it's like this is a company. This is like when, when you zoom out and you look the signal. Hey now. And you look at the signal of the trajectory of the last year, you're like, this is like a legit money making company. But I'm too in the busy in the weeds doing that you know, somebody else could do right out of college. So to your point, if you're going to have sushi for the first time, let it be at Nobu.

[Chris Williamson]

Yeah.

[Trevor Wallace]

And not a Ralph's grocery store.

[Chris Williamson]

7 11.

[Trevor Wallace]

7 11. Yes. Yeah, I think I have that fear. It's like, like I have a fear that I'm going to hire somebody and maybe hire them too quick. And I go, ah, you don't know what you're doing with my Instagram. Ah, you're fucking it up. You're making it worse.

[Chris Williamson]

Nobody knows what they're doing with it with my Instagram.

[Trevor Wallace]

Really?

[Chris Williamson]

No, that's. That's the lesson that you would take. You're like, you hire a person, first person doesn't go well. It's like your first relationship, they end up cheating on you. Like everybody's a cheater. It's like you chose a cheater. Or maybe it was you. Maybe you're the problem, but. Trevor Wallace, ladies and gentlemen.

[Trevor Wallace]

Dude, thank you so much for having. I learned so much. I've been a fan for so long, I didn't even know that you followed me. And then I saw that and I was like, dude, this has been happening.

[Chris Williamson]

DMing you for years.

[Trevor Wallace]

Oh, come on. It was once. You DM me once. But honored to be on here.

[Chris Williamson]

Yeah.

[Trevor Wallace]

Follow that Huberman.

[Chris Williamson]

Live shows. Where should people go?

[Trevor Wallace]

Trevor walls.com I'm touring the whole United States. I think I have like 30 shows left on this tour. Then we're filming a special in March in Phoenix, Arizona. Tickets going to be announced very soon. When does this come out?

[Chris Williamson]

Of weeks.

[Trevor Wallace]

All right, well, maybe it's on sale. Trevor wallace.com. thank you for having me, Chris. And make sure to drink Element and new tonic. Is that how you say it?

[Chris Williamson]

Yep. Thank you.

[Trevor Wallace]

Free ad reads nootropic.

[Chris Williamson]

Yeah, sure.

[Trevor Wallace]

Is there Kratom in this?

[Chris Williamson]

Yes.

[Trevor Wallace]

Thanks for having me, Chris.

[Chris Williamson]

If you are looking for new reading suggestions, look no further than the Modern Wisdom reading list. It is 100 books that you should read. Read before youe Die. The most interesting, life changing and impactful books I've ever read with descriptions about why I like them and links to go and buy them. And you can get it right now for free by going to ChrisWillX.com books that's ChrisWillX.com books.