Modern Wisdom Podcast #1050: Donald Robertson – Practical Tools for a Less Anxious Life

Date: January 24, 2026
Host: Chris Williamson
Guest: Donald Robertson (psychotherapist, author, and stoic philosophy expert)

Episode Overview

This episode dives deep into the science and practice of overcoming anxiety and managing emotions, with practical tools anchored in modern psychology and ancient philosophy. Chris hosts Donald Robertson, who blends knowledge from cognitive-behavioral therapy (CBT) and Stoicism to empower listeners to better understand, relate to, and manage anxiety—while also exploring the under-discussed topic of anger. The conversation balances clinical insights, research-backed techniques, memorable stories, and humor, making the episode as actionable as it is engaging.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. How Anxiety Really Works

• Mythbusting the “Blob of Emotion”
  Donald explains that society often understands emotions too simplistically:

  “Most people buy into something that psychologists call the hydraulic model of emotion…that emotions are just like a blob of energy that wells up inside you. That’s wrong.”
  (Donald, 01:08)

• Anxiety as a Recipe
  Emotions are more like a recipe: thoughts, actions, images, memories all “bake the cake” of anxiety.

2. Exposure Therapy: The Gold Standard

• How Exposure Works
  Practical example: Someone with a cat phobia is exposed to cats. Their anxiety spikes but, over time, if they stay in the situation and nothing bad happens, the anxiety “naturally wears off.”

  “What would happen if you take someone with a cat phobia and sling them in a room with a bunch of cats? Their heart rate almost doubles...But if they stay long enough, it comes down—this is called emotional habituation.”
  (Donald, 03:23-06:30)

• The Role of Social Support
  A supportive person present (parent, therapist) greatly increases likelihood of success.

3. Anxiety’s Adaptive and Maladaptive Sides

• When Habituation Goes Wrong
  Chris explores negative experiences that reinforce anxiety:

  “Habituation works in both directions. Presumably, it can reinforce anxiety as well as tune it down.”
  (Chris, 09:44)

• Experiential Avoidance
  Avoidance behaviors—like avoiding eye contact in social anxiety or overpreparing—prevent real emotional processing and reinforce anxiety.

4. Acceptance Over Avoidance

• Facing the Feeling
  Suppression, distraction, even breathing techniques, can sometimes backfire.

  “You need to allow yourself to experience anxiety for your brain to kind of process it… If you’re trying to get rid of anxiety too much, you create a second-order problem. Social anxiety is a classic example.”
  (Donald, 11:57)

• Second-Order Anxiety
  Being anxious about being anxious intensifies struggles.

5. Modern Therapy Approaches: CBT, ACT, and Beyond

• ACT Complements CBT
  Acceptance and Commitment Therapy (ACT) evolved from CBT and incorporates acceptance strategies, facilitating a more lasting change.
• Self-Help Limitations
  Despite a flood of self-improvement resources, mental health metrics aren’t improving. Over-consuming or misapplying self-help often leads to overwhelm or misdirected effort.

  “You can take almost any good piece of advice and turn that into bad advice...techniques…need nuance.”
  (Donald, 21:29)

6. Why Worry Never Ends: Maladaptive Coping & Worry Postponement

• Avoidance as “Root of All Evil”
  Avoidance prevents anxiety resolution by blocking necessary emotional exposure.
• Worry as Avoidance
  Chronic worriers don’t show the typical physical signs of anxiety (elevated heart rate), only muscle tension. Worrying is “problem-solving in disguise”—it maintains anxiety.
• Worry Postponement Technique
  Schedule a “worry time”; write down worries as they arise, then revisit them at a set time. Clinical trials show it cuts worry “by roughly 50% within two or three weeks.”
  (Donald, 37:52)
• Key Mechanism
  Deferring worry allows more rational, less anxious problem-solving.

7. Cognitive Defusion and Metacognitive Skills

• Distancing from Thoughts
  Techniques like observing your thoughts or referring to yourself in the third person (e.g., “Donald is worrying about taxes”) help disengage from unhelpful mental loops (40:30-44:20).

8. Feelings vs. Beliefs—And Why It Matters

• CBT’s Core Insight
  Changing how you interpret bodily sensations or cognitive patterns is more powerful than trying to suppress feelings.

  “Emotions aren’t just like a blob of energy...they’re intertwined with our thinking.”
  (Donald, 53:01)

9. Bottom-Up (Body) vs. Top-Down (Mind) Approaches

• Relaxation Techniques
  Classic methods like progressive muscle relaxation can be helpful but, if used solely to eliminate anxiety (avoidance), they backfire.
• Acceptance Over Relaxation
  “Relax into” anxiety, rather than attempt to relax anxiety away.

10. Skills Acquisition vs. Skills Application

• Biggest Modern Trap
  Many clients accumulate self-help skills but don’t transfer them from the “yoga mat or journal” to everyday life.

  “You leave it on your yoga mat or in your journal…To benefit, you have to apply skills in real-world, challenging situations.”
  (Donald, 82:20)

• Continuous Mindfulness
  The Stoics called it “prosoke”—ongoing self-observation is essential for lasting change.

11. Anger: The Untapped Royal Road of Self-Improvement

• Undervalued Emotion
  CBT for anger has a 70% success rate, higher than many other conditions, yet anger is frequently neglected because it’s seen as “an externalizing emotion.”
• Anger as a Coping Strategy

  “Anger often functions like a distraction technique. If I get really angry, then I’m not really paying attention to how hurt I am anymore…”
  (Donald, 98:38)

• Simple But Effective
  Catch anger early, accept feelings underneath, give them space—often “30 seconds”—to allow reappraisal.

12. Stoic and Ancient Techniques That Still Work

• Shamelessness Exercises
  Donald shares how Stoics and Cynics practiced public “shame-attacking” exercises to overcome social anxiety—walking a bottle on a string through a graveyard, etc. Modern versions in therapy include asking awkward questions in public, or performing embarrassing tasks to build resilience (76:50-80:40).
• Practical Pre-Meditation
  Stoic “premeditatio malorum”: Visualize setbacks daily and rehearse a philosophical response.

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “I think of an emotion, like anxiety, more like a recipe for baking a cake...The thoughts, actions, feelings, mental images, memories—they all get mixed together.”
  (Donald, 01:43)

• “Avoidance is the root of all evil...Anxiety itself isn’t actually that bad—a voidance is the problem.”
  (Donald, 26:49)

• “Worrying feels like you’re fixing a problem—but you need to understand that your brain goes into different states of functioning. When you’re anxious, you’re not in the ideal problem-solving state.”
  (Donald, 37:52)

• "I've got to tell you, some of the most effective advice in therapy is so banal and simple you feel you could write it on the back of a business card."
  (Donald, 71:55)

• “You leave [your self-improvement skills] on your yoga mat or your journal. Skill acquisition without skill application…it never really gets applied in practice.”
  (Donald, 81:09)

• “Anger makes you feel powerful. It’s kind of an illusion...and it conceals or compensates for feelings of powerlessness.”
  (Donald, 95:51)

Key Timestamps

• 01:08–06:50 – What is anxiety, and how does exposure therapy work?
• 09:44–13:00 – How avoidance can reinforce anxiety and why facing it matters
• 17:07–21:29 – Evolution of therapy: ACT, CBT “waves,” and limitations of self-help
• 26:46–37:52 – Why avoidance (not anxiety) is the deeper issue; worrying as avoidance
• 37:52–44:26 – The “worry postponement” technique and metacognitive skills
• 49:29–56:00 – Bottom-up (body) vs. top-down (cognitive) regulation in anxiety
• 71:55–82:20 – Why practical self-improvement requires ongoing, real-time application
• 88:48–98:38 – Anger: why it’s overlooked, how CBT & Stoicism tackle it, and why mastering anger first can help
• 108:09–111:44 – Why Donald left psychoanalysis for CBT, and the journey from anger to Stoicism

Actionable Strategies from the Episode

• Exposure Therapy: Systematically face anxiety triggers long enough for anxiety to subside naturally.
• Worry Postponement: Set aside a dedicated worry time; write worries down, return to them later.
• Cognitive Distancing: Use language to “step outside” your thoughts ("Right now, Chris is having the thought…").
• Catch & Process Anger Early: Notice early warning signs, sit with difficult feelings before reacting.
• Continuous Mindfulness: Cultivate self-observation throughout the day, not just in dedicated practice times.
• Practice voluntary “shame attacks” to erode social anxiety—set small, controlled experiments in the real world.
• Embrace Acceptance: Learn which parts of emotion can be changed, and which must be accepted and ridden out.

Final Thoughts

Donald Robertson brings invaluable—and often counterintuitive—perspective to managing anxiety and emotion: understand the complex, “recipe-like” nature of emotions, prioritize acceptance over avoidance, and ensure that powerful but simple techniques are practiced regularly in the situations that matter most. Integrating these ancient and modern wisdoms promises a life “less anxious”—and, perhaps, less angry too.

For more from Donald, visit his Substack for articles and resources on Stoicism and psychotherapy.