#1051 - HARDY - The Personal Pain of Country Music

Summary

Modern Wisdom #1051 — HARDY: The Personal Pain of Country Music

Host: Chris Williamson
Guest: HARDY (Michael Hardy)
Date: January 26, 2026

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Episode Overview

In this candid and heartfelt conversation, Chris Williamson sits down with country music artist and songwriter HARDY to explore the unique emotional landscapes of country music, the power and pain behind dark songs, and the deeply personal experiences that have shaped HARDY’s career and artistry. From the cutthroat yet collaborative Nashville scene to the life-altering impact of a near-fatal bus accident, this episode unpacks not just the process of creating music, but the profound personal journeys that fuel it.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Being Nice vs. Ruthless in the Music Industry (00:47 – 05:02)

• HARDY’s philosophy: “Be nice first and work hard second.” (00:50)
  • He emphasizes that talent is important, but being a good person takes you further in any job, especially in music.
• Chris cites Paul Graham: “Famous jerks are not role models… Being talented is merely how they get away with being a jerk.” (02:16)
• HARDY reflects: Talent may allow one to "get away" with bad behavior, but it’s not the cause of success. The package you bring into the room—the morale, the positivity—matters greatly on tour and in the studio.

2. Navigating the Dual Identity: Artist vs. Songwriter (05:02 – 07:21)

• HARDY shares his love for both sides: touring (more lucrative) and writing for others (his first love).
• He strives to keep a creative balance and avoids letting pressure dictate his inspiration: “I just want to write hits for other people so bad that I will just never not want to do that.” (05:57)
• He discusses knowing early in the writing process whether to keep a song or pass it on.

3. The Nashville Songwriting Machine (09:20 – 13:39)

• Chris marvels at Nashville’s collaborative and high-output songwriting system.
• HARDY boasts Nashville’s work ethic and storytelling prowess: “Nashville has the greatest storytellers in the world… It all starts with the song.” (10:01)
• On the genre’s story focus: “Country has never really been about anything other than the lyrics and the vocal.” (13:27)

4. Creativity, Collaboration, and the Myth of the Suffering Artist (13:39 – 19:15)

• HARDY explains the collaborative process: inspiration often comes from co-writers who bring song ideas to sessions.
• He maintains a running list of song ideas and finds the creative environment to be casual, not “lighting candles and crying,” but methodical and professional.
• On impact: “When we finished [‘Wait in the Truck’]... we all looked at each other and we were like, dude, this is going to destroy some people. And that's like, we did our job that day.” (17:45)

5. The Power of Dark Songs & Truth in Songwriting (25:02 – 27:37)

• Chris reads Richard Feynman’s love letter, illustrating how a delayed reveal of tragedy (the “twist ending”) can deeply affect listeners.
• HARDY observes: “Dark songs tell the truth in a way happy songs can’t.” (25:29)
  • He finds it easier to write sad or “dark” songs, noticing a stronger resonance with listeners.

6. On Mortality & Surviving a Bus Accident (31:31 – 47:46)

• Inspiration for latest album: A traumatic bus crash that revealed “how it can kind of go like that. It's a miracle that any of us survived.” (31:39)
• Gripping recount: HARDY details the crash, his injuries, finding help, and dealing with the aftermath (32:59 – 41:17).
• The bus driver’s undiagnosed brain tumor caused the accident; HARDY’s team miraculously survived.
• Processing trauma: HARDY didn’t process the experience until a year later, when panic attacks and anxiety emerged. EMDR therapy helped him reclaim his mental health (43:33 – 47:46).

7. Male Vulnerability & Mental Health in Country Music (50:38 – 55:06)

• HARDY hopes open conversation about mental health becomes more acceptable among male artists: “The more open especially men are about their mental health, the more that the shame... will just sort of go away.” (50:47)
• He reflects on the cultural tendency to suppress emotion, especially in the “country boy” setting: “Just bury it deep on down... That’s the philosophy my grandfather used to say.” (53:52)

8. The Paradox of Performance: Presence and Memory (55:55 – 61:46)

• Chris and HARDY discuss the “flow state” of touring and performing:
  • The irony: the moments you strive to create are often the ones you remember least. “The best moments of your career are the ones that you remember the least.” (59:14)
• Regret and self-compassion: Both agree it’s impossible to know which experiences will be “the last” (e.g., last time at a favorite festival), and self-forgiveness is key.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On being nice:
  • HARDY (00:50): “Be nice first and work hard second... Just being somebody that somebody wants in the room will take you so far.”
• On heartbreak in song:
  • HARDY (25:29): “Dark songs tell the truth in a way happy songs can’t.”
  • HARDY (26:53): “Sad songs or, like, really, really good heartbreak songs or death—people attach themselves to that stuff more.”
• On the fragility of life post-accident:
  • HARDY (31:39): “It can kind of go like that. It's a miracle that any of us survive. We all survive. It's a miracle that any of us did.”
• On the aftermath of trauma:
  • HARDY (47:46): “A year later to the day of the bus accident, out of nowhere I had a full blown panic attack on the golf course... Panic kind of... it all just sort of came back... But I got it fixed really quick.”
• On the flow state and performance memory:
  • Chris (59:14): “The best moments of your career are the ones that you remember the least.”
• On being gentle with oneself:
  • Chris (62:15): “Being gentle with yourself... You don’t know what’s going to happen next. Everybody experiences that the exact same.”

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• 00:47 – HARDY’s career philosophy: Be nice & work hard
• 02:16 – Chris on “famous jerks” (Paul Graham insight)
• 05:02 – The songwriter vs. artist balance
• 09:20 – Nashville’s unique music writing culture
• 13:39 – Inspiration, creativity, and the myth of suffering
• 17:45 – Emotional impact and audience connection
• 25:29 – Why dark songs resonate
• 31:31 – The bus accident & album inspiration
• 32:59–41:17 – HARDY’s detailed bus crash story
• 43:33 – Processing trauma and finding healing
• 50:38 – Vulnerability and mental health in country/men’s culture
• 55:55 – The blur of touring and the memory paradox

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Conclusion & What’s Next

HARDY closes by describing upcoming tour dates and his Hardy Fund charity, signaling continued musical output and personal growth. The conversation is a powerful, revealing look at the human experience behind the music, emphasizing vulnerability, gratitude, and the unexpected turns that shape a life and a career.

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Further Info

• HARDY’s new album (theme: mortality) and upcoming country tour in Canada (February)
• The Hardy Fund charity (details: Google "The Hardy Fund" to donate)
• How to stay updated: Follow HARDY on socials and check for the deluxe album.

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This summary skips advertisements and focuses entirely on the in-depth conversation and the perspectives shared by HARDY and Chris Williamson.

Transcript

[A]

Good news. I'm going back on tour with a brand new live show in Australia, New Zealand and Bali. If you are interested in learning how to overcome imposter syndrome, reach your goals while not missing your entire life. My perspective on where true confidence comes from, everything I've ever discovered about discipline, plus brand new insights that I've never spoken about on the podcast. Then join me on stage as I explore all of these topics with you and you can get involved during an extensive Q and A where we work through the biggest questions that you have. Right now, Perth and Brisbane are completely sold out, but there are still tickets available for Sydney, Melbourne, Adelaide, Christchurch, Auckland and Bali. And you can get yours right now by going to the link in the description below or heading to ChrisWilliamson Live. Work hard and be nice. Is that basically your career philosophy?

[B]

Yeah. Have I said that exact exactly before? I feel like I have. I feel like that's like the number one. You know, honestly, if I put them in order, it would be be, be nice first and work hard second. Not, not, not. Like, you know, don't dismiss working hard. But man, being, being a good hanger, just being somebody that somebody wants in the room will take you so far. I feel like in, in any, any sort of any job atmosphere at all.

[A]

Why? I, I would have assumed, especially in music, if you're some virtuoso guitarist, nobody likes an dude.

[B]

It doesn't matter how good you are or something. I, I just, nobody wants that person in the room. I feel like. And, and I just. How many times. I cannot tell you how many times I've done podcasts or we've gotten a VIP tour of something, or we had a driver, you know, in LA or in New York. And then we've been like, you ever had anybody that was just terrible to work with and people just remember that, man. And it's a lot of times it's people that are like really famous and really successful and very talented. And, and there's just. I know that people like drivers and you know, people that give Disney World tours and stuff like that are not people that are gonna, you know, help advance your career. But, but I think that transcends stuff like that and just being nice to people and making sure everybody is appreciated and feels comfortable around you. And I just think it's important.

[A]

There's a guy called Paul Graham who's an investor and a writer from the uk. He lives in the UK now. He's got this great idea. Famous jerks are not role models. Some talented people are jerks. And this sometimes makes it seem to the inexperienced that being a jerk is part of being talented. It isn't. Being talented is merely how they get away with being a jerk.

[B]

Wow, that's really good.

[A]

I think it's true.

[B]

Yeah, totally. 100%.

[A]

The success is not because of them being an asshole. The fact that they are successful is how they get away with being an asshole.

[B]

Yeah, 100%. Yeah. Would you call it a paradox?

[A]

A little bit, yeah.

[B]

Yeah, yeah.

[A]

Well, it's certainly, it's certainly surprising because it gives people this idea that oh, ego is where the success has been like cultivated from. Right. As opposed to the fact that like the success gave them this buffer zone where people are. I can't be too mean to hardy because like, you know, like, look at all the songs he does and stuff. He's a bit of a whatever. So I mean, it's kind of surprising because I think a lot of people in jobs, they see it as being transactional that if you are good at X you will get Y. But there's the packaging that your talent comes in which is, well, you a good hang. How are you on the bus? What's your morale like when you've done three shows in three days and everybody's tired? It's like, are you the one that brings everybody up or are you the one that's. Dude, this is so tough. This is so hard. I'm missing the. What are the. Everyone's doing that.

[B]

Yeah, yeah. No, it's very true, man. And it's just. I've always just kind of thought that it's like it takes way more effort to be, you know, like an. Than just to be nice. And there's. I mean I've. I've had my moments, I mean for sure where I just, I'm exhausted or mentally drained or my meter is at an all time zero. And, and those are moments where I feel like I just get more quiet more than. More than anything. But man, it's just so much easier to be just nice to people and, and just keep a smile on your face and keep it light and just do, do what you got to do. And even if it's something you don't want to do, you do it anyway and, and, and have fun with it. And I don't know, it just seems.

[A]

Way less effort to do that in your experiences. Being a good guy, a performance enhancer, rather than trying to be ruthless and screwing people over.

[B]

What do you mean by that?

[A]

If you're a nice person, are they the Ones that end up winning in the end, because there is a sense that ruthlessness and being cutthroat and, you know, sort of like going for it aggressive, lean in. Oh, well, that's how you achieve success.

[B]

I don't think. I don't think there's a real true answer to that, because I think there's tons of people. I think. I would like to think that more nice people win, certainly, but I don't think it's true every time by any means.

[A]

Well, I'm interested for you especially about the tension between being a songwriter and an artist. Right. Because you've got. You're part of the Nashville engine. I was talking to a friend yesterday who put you as one of the best three songwriters in Nashville, which is probably about as competitive as it can be.

[B]

That's very nice.

[A]

But you're behind the scenes. You were behind the scenes, then you become in front of the scenes. And now you've got to try and balance these two worlds. What's the. What's the tension like between being artist and also being, like, contributor to other artists at the same time?

[B]

I try not to think about it, really. You know, I mean, I'm very thankful to have started out as a songwriter because I feel like I can jump right in and never skip a beat. You know, I can tour for six months or whatever and barely write a song and then just jump right in and write for somebody else. And it's, like, not difficult at all. But I've never really thought about the balance or, like, the pressure between the two at all. I mean, to be completely candid, touring is a lot more lucrative than songwriting, so it. A little bit of that takes the pressure off of, like, having to make a career out of songwriting. But I have. I just want to. To write hits for other people so bad that I will just never not want to do that. It's why I moved to town as my first love. And I just love having great songs and, like, giving that song to somebody and hoping that it helps their career and. And all that. But I've never really felt pressure. There's definitely been times where I have been like, okay, like, I'll hit up my management or link my management and my publishing and be like, hey, guys, we need to find a balance. Like, I need to write more songs, because it's just. It's a tank that I have that if it's. If it's empty, I. You know, I feel a little bit less sense of purpose if I haven't been writing songs. Whether no matter what they may be.

[A]

And.

[B]

And so, you know, there's times where I become a little more aware that I need to. I need to sort of re. Redistribute my. My time. But I've never really felt the pressure to. To do one more than the other. Or like, you know, once one's falling behind, you know, I try to keep them even or anything like that. It's. It's just. I don't know, I try not try to take the pressure off myself, and I think it makes for more creativity and better. Better creative moments and stuff. When you don't feel pressure to write hits or like, you know, pressure to write so many songs or anything like that.

[A]

What if you write. What if you write a real slammer? There must be a sense in your mind where you go, well, do I. Is this a me? Do I just, like, keep this one in the. In the hardy folder? Or is this.

[B]

Yeah, that happens a lot. Happens all the time. They. It's funny, I. There's a lot of songs, though, that I just. It's a slammer, but it's just not for me.

[A]

And.

[B]

And. And there's a lot of time, a lot of writers that I have, even friends of mine that I'm. That are like, you sure? Or like, I can tell. I'm like, man, this would be good for. This would be great for, you know, Blake Shelton. And. And they're like, oh, yeah, cool. You know, and maybe you was hurt. Yeah, yeah. But even that is very. I usually know. But by the time we get like, verse, chorus, if I'm gonna. If I'm gonna cut the song or if I'm gonna, you know, give it to someone else or. Or hope, hopefully give it to someone else.

[A]

I was talking to John Bellion. He was on the show a couple of weeks ago, and obviously he took this big hiatus from being an artist to just do the songwriting thing. And he said he knew when he was ready to get back to producing music because he would have this list of demos or whatever. He'd have 15 demos and he'd be showing it to whoever was in the studio with him. And there would always be one or two tracks that he would just, like, he'd skip over the top of. He'd leave that one to one side. He'd never showed that. And I thought that was so cute. He was like, oh, I really, really like that.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. For me, the LA approach is very different, I think. And. But I will say, like, I don't ever Play anybody. My best stuff, like, ever, until it's. Until it's out. I just like the big reveal and, you know, the. The keeping it a secret. I just feel like it's more of, like an explosion when it comes out, even with your friends and stuff, you know, it's. To get Nashville talking about a song is very. Is just as important as, like, the public hearing about it, I think. I just think that people buzz about a song and. And I don't know what it is, but there's just something about Nashville buzzing about a song that. That just helps it always.

[A]

What do people not understand about how the Nashville scene works? In what way, generally? I mean, it is a. It's a fucking engine for music. It's a factory for music. But at least from. From my perspective, the fact that you have a room where anybody who typically, you've got, like, the writer credit of, dude, you were over the far side chewing on a toothpick or whatever, like, thank you for being in the room. You contributed to this. The fact that you will have multiple different rooms going at one time, and artists will bounce between those if they're really, really trying to crank. Seems to me like there aren't many scenes like Nashville when it comes to writing music, maybe anywhere on the planet.

[B]

It's very different. I mean, I think Nashville's work ethic is better than other cities I've written in. I think that top liners, like lyric and melody, or at least lyric writers, storytellers. I think it's the best in the world. I think that Nashville has the greatest storytellers in the world. And it is. It's a machine. And it all starts with the song, which I think is really cool, man. And, like, right now, today. What time is it right now? It's. It's 1011 right now. There are more. There's probably 300 rooms of people writing songs right now in Nashville trying to get the next hit, excuse Me. And there's a lot of those songs that are going to be. Have potential to be the next, you know, and within the next year, a big old hit. And it's. It's. It's kind of off to the races from there, you know, I think it's the coolest thing ever.

[A]

Is there something about country as a musical style which affords storytelling more room than other genres do?

[B]

Yeah, sure. I think that can go back to a long time ago. And I, you know, like, what's. Much of country music's biggest songs have been stories. And so I just think it's a pattern, if that's kind of what you're getting at. Are you. I mean, basically, are you just saying, like, why? Why is why. Why is it easier or more common to write stories in country than any other? Any other thing?

[A]

To a degree. Yeah. And then is there something to do with the structure of country as a genre which affords more. More room for storytelling? Like a rock. Right. Or like, just very unique ways to piece a story together and then keep on looping things back?

[B]

I don't know. That's a really good question.

[A]

If I was to, like, put my total amateur theory forward. It's so lyric driven. It's so vocals heavy.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

But are there many country songs where people go, dude, I just love the riff, right? Well, no, but with something like Caramel by Sleep Token, that plucky little intro thing that it has is as. Yeah, exactly like it. Almost. The first time I ever heard it, I thought, is this like some, like, reggaeton, Jamaican inspired? Because it almost does have that sound like bunging.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So I'm like, all right, well, that is as much a part. And if you move into metal or more hard stuff, well, the riff actually can be the lead. That's what people love. But with country, very rarely is it going to be that it's much more about.

[B]

It's way less about the music, for sure. Like their arrangement. I think that producers would argue, you know, like, my producer Joey is like, you got to fill the space and. And, you know, takes a lot of time to. In the studio to make sure, like, the parts are right and that everything is catchy and there's just a bunch of. That all the spaces are filled. But no, it is very much. It's. It's. It's. It's all about the. The lyrics. You're right. And very. I mean, the vocal is out front and that's everything. At least right now people can argue that, like, that. That sub genre of country, that's like Whiskey Myers and. And a lot of is like. Which is like sync. Like, you know, a lot of the stuff that you hear on the TV shows and stuff is more about music and. And less about lyric. But I don't know. I can't really speak to that. But no, you're totally right. It's. It's just the way it's always been. And. And the country. Country has never really been about anything other than the lyrics and the vocal, you know, or both at the same time.

[A]

Talk to me about where inspiration and creativity comes from for you or what Sort of your creative process looks like, because you've got a bunch of stuff going on. High volume writing for other people. I've heard you say it's between sort of two and three days a week that you're cranking that out.

[B]

Yeah. On a good. Like in a good. Yeah.

[A]

When you're not on tour and you spend a little bit of time, maybe not on your dad, but then you've also got your own stuff, you've got your own obligations, but then you've also got this balance between volume of output and quality of output. You can't be doing five songs a day, three days a week and maximizing in the same way that you would if it was spending a little bit more time. So I'm interested in this balance. Yeah. Inspiration and creativity with output.

[B]

I mean, you know, the one cool thing about Nashville, before I even get into this, is we all stand. The songwriters all stand on each other's shoulders. And, you know, thankfully, there's so much like, collaboration and camaraderie within that, you know, in Nashville that, like, you know, you go into a room with some people and. And like, I might be exhausted. I might have not been in a good, like, idea headspace. And you go in and like, your buddy or whoever you're writing with has the idea and it's just like, oh, thank God, you know, that pressure is off. And now I can just latch onto this idea and help write this in the room. But, you know, so that, you know, so your collaborators always make it a lot easier on you. It's like if you and I. Or it's like if you asked me to move this table across the room or we got six people to do it, and the weight is a lot lighter. And that's what it's always felt like for me. So first and foremost, if you don't have an idea, don't. Don't let your panic or your. Your inhibition put that, know the cloud over your creative bubble. Because you just have to always trust that somebody's going to have something if you don't, you know, and that. That helps with the creative process. But, man, for me, I just. I. I have a running list of I'll scroll fast and nobody steals my shit.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, we can, we can. We can blur it. I'll. I'll see.

[B]

So I can see because I'm writing after this today, too.

[A]

Amazing.

[B]

But these are just all song either lines or notes or whatever. And it. It dates back to like, probably 10 years ago. It's just a running List of. No, mine. Mine is short. I. I see people scroll through theirs and they're super long, and I'm like, damn, bro.

[A]

Well, you keep on turning them into songs, which is.

[B]

Well, that's true. That's true. And then you. Then you have to delete it sometimes it's like, sad. You're like, damn, I've been looking at that idea for, you know, two or three years, and you delete it. But, man. Yeah. And, you know, I. I know this is not exactly what you were getting at, but I love talking about this because it's so like any other office or whatever it may be. It's like you walk. You. You. Everybody has their ideas, and then you walk into a publishing house or some. Usually a lot of times these days, it's either somebody's studio or their home studio. But like, you just walk in and you know everybody now. So it's just like. It's. There's. It's not. It's not this, like, light a candle, Kumbaya, you know, like somebody's like, man, I just went through this horrible heartbreak. Let's blah, blah, blah. You know, it's just. It's not like that. And. But I love that. It's that we can like, take a moment where we're. We're walking in and we're like, what up? You know, and. And you get.

[A]

You get down to business.

[B]

And, you know, I'm a big deer hunter, and most. A lot of Nashville writers are big deer hunters. So right now we're just talking about deer hunting. And then everybody goes, oh, well, let's see here. And then somebody's like, heart, you know, hearts on fire. And you just start throwing out random ideas and. And it's just one of them sticks. And then you write it because everybody in the room is a professional songwriter. And then a year later, it's like a seven week number one dude. It's like, it's just crazy to me, but it's. It's. But what I'm getting at is how not. It's not like, it's not as you would never think that it's like not a creative, you know, from the heart kind of thing because it's country music. And like, these. The stories are so good and they make people cry. And.

[A]

But.

[B]

But these songwriters like myself and other people, it's like, we're not crying in the room, but when we write a line, we're like, this is gonna. This is gonna hammer somebody. It's gonna make like, you know, but. And we mean that not in a funny way, but like in a very like, you know, like this is gonna help a lot. Like when I, when we wrote Wait in the Truck, when we like finished that song and Jordan Schmidt and his home studio like played that song top down, we all looked at each other and we were like, dude, this is going to destroy some people. And that's like, we did our job that day, you know, and. But anyway, it's just. I love the creative process. I probably went way off on a tangent, but I just, I love talking about how not creative the creative process looks, you know, and we're not sitting in a vibey room and some places are like that and that's totally fine. Like, I know la, it's a lot about. More about like getting in the mood.

[A]

And waving sage, burning some sage, waving that around.

[B]

Yeah. You know, and certain candles that smell a certain way and all that. But man, in Nashville, it's truly just a bunch of normal guys and girls, normal looking people that are just. Their brains are just wired different and they're incredibly good at what they do, but they, you know, and it just, you just would never know it. And I just think that's the coolest thing ever. Some of the most creative people in the world. Some people in the world, some people in this town have the ability to make people like ball their eyes out that live anywhere, that anywhere that can speak English, you know, and they just are like a, you know, a chubby dude that just goes to the grocery store every other day and lets his dogs out every night, you know, in the afternoon. Like it's just, it's cool to me. It's like the coolest thing ever.

[A]

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[B]

Oh my God, dude.

[A]

So I like.

[B]

Ah, bro, it's.

[A]

Do you want me to read it to you? Let me read it to you.

[B]

I don't know. I don't think I've ever cried on camera before, but sure, let's see if.

[A]

We can do it.

[B]

Jesus Christ.

[A]

Well, I've already. Cheer up.

[B]

Literally just like saying it. But you've already. At least you've given it away so it takes the shock away.

[A]

I warn you a little bit. All right. October 17, 1946. Darlene, I adore you, sweetheart. I know how much you like to hear that, but I don't only write it because you like it. I write it because it makes me warm all over inside to write it to you. It is such a terribly long time since I last wrote to you. Almost two years. But I know you'll excuse me because you understand how I am stubborn and realistic and I thought there was no sense to writing. But now I know, my darling wife, that it is right to do what I have delayed in doing and that I have done so much in the past. I want to tell you I love you. I want to love you. I will always love you. I find it hard to understand in my mind what it means to love you after you are dead. But I still want to Comfort and take care of you. And I want you to love me and care for me. I want to have problems to discuss with you. I want little projects with you. I never thought until just now that we can do that. What should we do? We started to learn to make clothes together or learn Chinese or get a movie projector. Can't I do something now? No. I'm alone without you. And you were the idea woman and general instigator of all our wild adventures. When you were sick, you worried that you could not give me something that you wanted to and thought I needed. You needn't have worried. Just as I told you then. There was no real need. Because I loved you in so many ways, so much. And now it is clearly even more true. You can give me nothing now. Yet I love you so that you stand in my way of loving anyone else. But I want you to stand there. You dead are so much better than anyone else alive.

[B]

My God.

[A]

I know you will assure me that I am foolish and that you want me to have full happiness and don't want to be in my way. I bet you are surprised that I don't even have a girlfriend. Except you, sweetheart, after two years. But you can't help it, darling. Nor can I. I don't understand it. For I have met many girls and very nice ones, and I don't want to remain alone. But in two or three meetings they all seem ashes. You only are left to me. You are real. My darling wife. I do adore you. I love my wife. My wife is dead. P. S. Please excuse my not mailing this, but I don't know your new address.

[B]

Oh, my God. Jesus, man. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's insane. It's like. Is that real? That's a real thing he did for his real wife. So, like, there's still. There's so much poetry and that. I mean, there's so much. To me, part of the. The gag or the like. The. The trick is. Is not revealing the thing until it's like the perfect time. Right. So, like, that's the thing, you know, I don't understand.

[A]

I struggle to know what it means to love you after you are dead.

[B]

Yeah. And in. And the songwriting from a songwriting. You would probably wait till the very end, you know, to do that. But even still, like, it's waiting on. That is such a poetic. It's such a. I mean, it. It's. It's a simple. You know, we call it a trick, but. But, yeah, that's. That's beautiful. I mean, it's I'm trying to think of a song that I have or that I know of that has, like, a twist at the very end of a song. But you kind of have to like, oh, shit, I gotta listen to that again. You know, like, I missed. I missed it. It's like an M. Night Shyamalan movie. And you missed.

[A]

Yeah, like Christopher Nolan or whatever.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And you're like, wait, he was dead the whole time? But he was talking to that person. Wait, he wasn't talking to her.

[A]

Gotta go back to nobody.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, That's. That's. Those are. Those are the best, man.

[A]

So for me, finding something like that is the kind of equivalent of going into the room and being like, fuck. Like, is this right? Is this. And then you finally find something and you go, this deserves to get out there. Like, this is. How can I craft this? In a way, there's other little bits and pieces. Most of the time it's not a big chunk, right? It's. You tell a story and then you repurpose it. You rework it around. I've heard you say dark songs tell the truth in a way Happy songs can't.

[B]

Yeah, it's weird.

[A]

How so?

[B]

I don't know, because people. Maybe it's just me. Maybe I'm just, like, just dark. Darker than maybe I even think I am. But, like, I have just, like, songs about dark things. Even if there's a hopeful, like a weight in the truck, you know, that's like a very. It's like a hero story, but people just gravitate towards that more. I've always found. I don't know why, but, like, I'm trying to think of another. A good example. But I don't know. I. I mean, again, maybe I haven't done a study. I haven't done. You know, I haven't surveyed a thousand people, but it just seems that, like, sad songs or, like, really, really good heartbreak songs or death, you know, people dying songs, even if they are, they have a happy lesson in them. Like a live, like you were dying kind of thing. There's just people. People attach themselves to that stuff more. I do think that there's a lot of, like, a lot of dark moments in people's lives. And I think that, you know, if you. If you can find a way to relate to that and that be a song, then you're gonna probably attach to that, you know, pretty. Pretty hard. But. Yeah, I don't know why, but I just. I feel like. And it's so weird Dark songs are so much easier to write.

[A]

You think?

[B]

Yeah, for me. I mean, for me, personally, it's like if you have a. You know, if somebody threw out a song called the Best Day Ever or whatever, you know, I'd be like, I don't know, man.

[A]

The worst day ever.

[B]

Yeah. I'd be like, how would you do that? How would you spin. Would you spin that a certain way? Or, like, you know. Yeah, exactly. That's weird. Maybe that's just me. My wife kind of. She kind of gives me hell a lot and. Or let's just say gives me encouragement, because I'll. You know. This last record I had spoke a lot about mortality. Like, a lot. And a lot of it was in a very positive way of, like, appreciate your life now because, you know, one day you won't be here. But she was like, you need to write happier songs.

[A]

Stop whining. Yeah. Yeah, dude.

[B]

You're so emo. Yeah. Like, write some happier stuff. So maybe I should. But it's just. It's. It's not as easy. It's.

[A]

Well, I guess Luke comes album, maybe the one before last, that was. Everything's great and life's going well. And, you know, Dad's getting a bit older, but my son's growing up, and he misses we when I'm away. But my wife's good. And you're like, okay, well, that's. That's a pivot, right? From, like, this is broken, and that's not so great.

[B]

Yeah, true. Yeah. He kind of had the emo in.

[A]

His own phase earlier on. Number away and cut the fringe off.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[A]

Yeah. It is a. It is a really interesting blend to think about why people resonate. Here's one thing. I think people feel alone in their sadness in a way that causes them to try and seek companionship or comfort. So, like, fuck. Like, somebody else feels that.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

As opposed to if everything's going great and if you're happy, like, yeah, sure, it's nice that someone else is also happy along with you.

[B]

It's hard to, like, relate to somebody that's. It's so weird. I don't know why that is a thing, but you're totally right. You're like, you're having a great. I'm having a great day. You know? Like, nobody ever says that, but if somebody's having a bad day, you're like, oh, my God, Come here.

[A]

Let me. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Every man knows God when he's at his lowest. Right. You reflect so much more. There was this cool Story from a coach of mine, Joe. He talks about his daughter. She was like nine at the time and she was crying in the bathroom. And the way that she was crying, he said, you don't sound that sad to me. You sound pissed off. And she's like, I am. He said, well, you know when you're crying in the bathroom, how often are you pissed off and how often are you sad? He says, about half the time is that, well, how can you cry? Like why, why are you crying if you're angry half the time? If you're pissed off, how come you're crying? And he says, well, when I'm angry, everybody runs away. But when I cry, my sister comes and looks after me. I just thought it was such a brilliant insight into this, sort of the pro social, not seductive, but like attractive, gravitational force of sadness. And I think a lot of the time, even when people are mad, they sometimes turn it into being sad. Because when people are mad, others run away. But when they're sad, people come and help them. I wonder if that's maybe a little bit of sad.

[B]

I don't know, that's a weird, strange dynamic grooves of your brain, like. Cause nobody is outwardly thinking like, maybe if I just act like I'm sad. That's like some caveman brain thing that's been around a long time, but people do it for some reason. That's crazy.

[A]

Yeah, I think so. In other news, you've probably heard me talk about element before and that is because I'm frankly dependent on it for the last forever in my life. I've started every single day the same way, which is with this. In a cold glass of water, element is electrolytes. It's got no BS in it. It's got everything that you need and nothing that you don't. At scientifically backed levels, sodium, potassium and magnesium at the perfect ratio with no sugar or artificial ingredients or any other junk, plays a critical role in reducing muscle cramps and fatigue. It optimizes your brain health, regulates your appetite, curbs your cravings. And this stuff in a cold glass of water is like a sweet, salty, orangey nectar that I look forward to every single day. And I genuinely feel the difference when I take it versus when I don't. Which is why I keep talking about it and why you need to try it. Best of all, there's a no questions asked refund policy with an unlimited duration, so you can buy it completely risk free, try it for as long as you want, and if you don't like it for Any reason? They just give you your money back. Plus they offer free shipping in the US Right now. You can get a free sample pack of elements most popular flavors with your first purchase and that money back guarantee by going to the link in the description below or heading to drinklmnt.com modernwisdom that's drinklmnt.com Modern Wisdom. You said new album, Lot of mortality. What inspired that?

[B]

I don't know. It's just maybe a headspace I've been in of appreciating life a little bit more. You know, we. We. I was in a pretty bad bus accident a couple years ago and it kind of opened my eyes to a lot of just how. How it can kind of go like that. And it's a miracle that any of us survive. We all survive. It's a miracle that any of us did. And. And I don't know, I feel like since then, just my mortality or the fragility of my mortality or my life, whatever, that, however that's supposed to be worded, it is just has been a little. A more apparent thing for me recently. And. And so I think that's why. I don't really know, but. And I've already, like, the songs I've written since that record, like, nothing. Nobody's died. I haven't died. I'm not gonna die, you know, but it's just. I had to get it out. I don't know what it was, but there's, you know, there's songs about, like, there's. So there's songs about appreciating it and there's songs about like. I mean, I don't know, I have to kind of go back and read the. The track list now. But there's. It kind of touches just on different. Different ways to approach your. Your mortality. And. Yeah, I just think it probably has to do a lot with the headspace that I've been in. Post Bus wreck. It's been three years, but. But I've kind of been writing this record for a year and a half or two years, so it was still pretty fresh at the time.

[A]

Would you mind telling the story about the bus?

[B]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. We were. We played a show in Bristol. It was a sad Saturday night in Bristol. I was opening for Morgan. And then we decided to leave early so we could get back to town because Bristol, Tennessee is only like four hours away and you gain an hour, so it doesn't feel like you get in quite as late, you know, so we were 20 miles from town, maybe less. We were like 15 miles back from town, and my tour manager at the time was already sleeping in his bunk, and my photographer and I were awake in the front lounge listening to something, listening to music. And our bus driver pulled over on the side of the road and got. He came and went to the bathroom. He stayed in there, like, five minutes, which was really weird, especially being this close to town. But we didn't. You know, we were drinking. We didn't really think anything about it. We were just like, it's kind of weird, and came out of the bathroom, and I was like, ricky, you good? And he ignored me, which we were like, what is he? But he had his Bluetooth thing in, so we always wonder if he was on the phone. So I. I stepped up, and I was like, ricky, you good? And he was like, yep, all good. I was like, all right, man. You know, we'll be there in a minute or whatever, I guess. And anyway, we started going back down the road, and then we just. Just. The bus just went off in this, like, bottom.

[A]

We.

[B]

We flipped, like, three times over, and.

[A]

You'Re still in the front lounge, so you're not strapped in at all. You're.

[B]

Somebody said, like, shoes in a. In a washing or shoes in a dryer. And so what?

[A]

Just because you must be sat. And then feel the bus.

[B]

We got. Well, we felt the rumble strips, and then we felt us, like, going off the road. Like, you know, every now and then, your driver will hit, like, rumble strips, and your. Everybody's like, oh. But we felt the left side hit the rumble strips, and we knew we were going off the road. And it just. I don't know what it was, but when it flipped, it got airborne for a second. I. I could just. There was a moment of, like, silence before the thing, and me and Tanner looked at each other, and then just. We both just, like, boom. It was, like, the hardest force I've ever felt in my life. Just got thrown to the other side, and then we both were, like, instantly knocked out. So I don't remember anything else but the way the bus was laying. It's like, if it's driving down the road like this, right? It flipped here, and then it flipped here, and then it flipped here, and that's where we, like, ended or whatever, But I woke up. I was the first one to wake up, which sucked. And my head was, like, wedged under this. The window, which had busted out, and. And there was a glass everywhere, and there was a piece of glass from the window, like, stuck in my head, and I just had to like, pull my head out front of this thing. And I walked up. It was. We went down a really steep hill, so I had to walk up. It wasn't like steep like that ceiling by any means, but it was probably a 15 foot, you know, like, hill or whatever. And it was cold. It was like 35 degrees. And I was trying. I could not flag down a car. It was like four in the morning, three or four in the morning. And so I could not get a car. I didn't have my phone. I'm blind without my glasses, so I couldn't see. I thought everybody in the bus was dead because. No, everybody was. Nobody was conscious. So I was just helpless. Like, I didn't know what to do. And so I went back to the bus to try to find my phone, but I couldn't see. So, like. And I didn't have. And I was wearing all black, so I couldn't find anything. I mean, the bus looked like. It looked like a bomb went off in there. It was just. It was just. You can't even describe it. You had to Google it. But. But yeah, went back up to the highway. I'm in the road. I had a white circle on my hoodie. And I'm in the road, like shaking it and then running to the side. Nobody would stop. And then I heard my photographer wake up and he was screaming bloody murder, all this thing. And. And then my tour manager, somehow he was blocked in the back, that the door was shut to the. You know, how. Have you been on a tour bus? Like, yeah, the doors, you know, and all that. So that door was shut. Somehow he got it open. And I mean, he's all banged up and he's like looking at me like, you're looking at me right now. And I was like, I know. And I was like, we have to have a phone now. And it was a miracle. His phone somehow. And all of that craziness had gotten from his bunk to the front lounge, like, slid somewhere. And it was at the bottom of a pile of like, rubble inside the bus. And the second I said, we have to get a phone right now, his alarm to wake up because we would have gotten back to town went off. And so I literally reached down into. Moved all the. Whatever the hell what it was. Got his phone, called 91 1. We were thankfully one exit away from, like, a hospital exit. It was like an exit built for like, a big hospital complex. Ambulance was there in like, five minutes. And. Yeah. So all that being said, rest in peace. Ricky. Ricky, we. We wrecked because he had a brain tumor he didn't know about. And so he had either an aneurysm or a. A stroke or a seizure. It was probably a seizure because he. He. They sent him to Vanderbilt because they were asking him questions, and he didn't know what day it was or where he was. And they were like, okay, he's had trauma. We need to get him somewhere. And they didn't find it for, like, a week, but come to find out he had a brain tumor, ended up killing him. About a year later, Tanner broke, like, every. My photographer broke, like, every bone in his body. And I just laugh. We can laugh about it now, because it was just crazy. But I remembered seeing his. His bone. He had a compound fracture that broke the skin, so he had a bone sticking out of the top of his foot. And he kept. He kept telling the. We're late. We're. Now. We're in the bus and come. We're helping. I'm just. You know, the ambulance is there. And he kept pulling on his bone, and he was like, there's a stick in my foot. It's a bone. But, yeah, Tanner broke his neck, his ribs, his back, his foot. He was. I mean, he was so Mango. He's a smaller guy, and I. Noah, the guy in the bunk, he actually turned out the best because he. He didn't.

[A]

He was just.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly. He was pretty banged up, but no serious injuries. And I just had a concussion and, like, a few staples in my head, and I fractured my back, but it wasn't even, like, not very serious. You know what I mean? I. Like, I hurt for a couple months. It's a compression fracture. So I guess when we hit, I think my spine just did, like, an accordion.

[A]

And you feel a little bit shorter than you did before the.

[B]

Well, I physically was like, a half an inch shorter, but. But they missed it in the hospital. And I. Like, a week later, Cat, my wife and I are on a walk, and I was like, man, I feel this, like, jolt of just, like, pain that goes through my body. And I got. Went. Got an X ray, and it was like a bunch of square vertebrae, and then one just looked like that right in the middle. And they call that a compression fat fracture. And I said, you know, I haven't gotten it looked at again, but said, takes six, eight months to. There's nothing you can do. You just. It kind of gets back to normal and go steady. But all that being said, yeah, it was a very, very. Just unpredictable. You know, when you think about it, like, we weren't. We didn't deal with a drunk driver. We didn't hit a deer or just, you know, I mean we didn't. There wasn't icy. There was no snow, no bad weather.

[A]

It wasn't our driver negligence.

[B]

No. He just, he had a brain episode and. And it just happened be then, you know, I mean it such a freak thing.

[A]

Do you think that his trips to the bathroom.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Before were early. Oh, there's something going on. I don't feel.

[B]

Yeah, sorry, I forgot I spoke to that. That's exactly what was happening. So he was entering into. I think it was an aneurysm but he had. Whatever had happened had happened and it was slowly getting worse and worse or whatever and it's so funny. I've heard my dad had a good friend that he used to work. My dad was a high school referee, football referee and, and his. One of his best friends had an aneurysm as a referee on the field. And it was just very similar because he said his name was Lewis and he said Lewis. They looked over and he was laid out and they just thought he got knocked over by a player. And he got up and he was like, no, I'm fine. But every like minute that went by, he was acting crazier and weirder and. And then sure enough, he, you know, he almost died. But it was a miracle man. You should Google. If you Google just like my name in the. In the bus accident, the pictures will come up. There's one of the inside of the bus. Look it up. That's pretty, pretty gnarly.

[A]

Before we continue, I've been drinking AG1 every morning for years now because it is the simplest way that I found to cover my bases and not overthink nutrition. And that's why I partnered with them. 75 vitamins, minerals and whole food sourced ingredients in a single drink. And now they've taken it a step further with AG1 Next Gen, the same one scoop, once a day ritual, but this time, oh, it's coming in from multiple directions. This time backed by four clinical trials. In those trials, it was shown to fill common nutrient gaps, improve key nutrient levels and increase healthy gut bacteria by 10 times, even in people who already eat well. Basically, they've upgraded the formula with more probiotics, better bioavailable nutrients and clinical validation. Plus it's still NSF certified for sport so that you know that the quality is legit and, and if I ever found anything better, I would change. But I haven't, which is why I still Use it every single day if you're still on the fence. There's a 90 day money back guarantee if you're in the US so you can buy it and try it for three months. If you don't like it, they will give you your money back. And right now, when you first subscribe, you can get a free bottle of D3K2, an AG1 welcome kit, a few bonus AG1 travel packs and that 90 day money back guarantee if you're in the US by going to the link in the description below. Heading to drinkag1.com modern wisdom. That's drink ag1.com modern wisdom. I'm interested. First off, I'm really, really glad that you guys are all still here and it feels.

[B]

Thank you, man.

[A]

A lot like a miracle. Secondly, I've been on a good few tour buses, single deckers, double deckers, especially around Europe.

[B]

That's scary, dude.

[A]

That would have been different.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[A]

But every single time, especially on a double decker, when you're at the front lounge on the top, it's you and a piece of glass and then just the road right in front of you.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Every single time that I've been on a bus like that, that's been moving, there is a bit of me that goes like in cars you're supposed to have your seatbelt on at all times.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You need to spend a lot of time touring, which means you're gonna have to be back in a bus a good bit and you would have had to have got back on a bus.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

What was the first time that you got back on a tour bus for a long night journey? Like after that experience and sort of. How are you now with that?

[B]

This is, this was a, this was a journey. This was like a very long. So I forgot to mention, but this was three weeks before my wedding. My wife was on her bachelorette party. The last night they had again it was three in the morning, she there in New Orleans. They're all hammered, having a great time. I facetime her and I'm just like bleeding, bleeding out of my nose and my head. I just look like, you know, I look like I've been in a car accident and I'm freaking out because I've hit my head really hard and I'm actually pretty with it. But I just, I like a brain injury has always freaked me out and I know how that works is sometimes you can hit your head and then you don't know it till like hours later if you don't go get it checked. Out and da, da, da. And anyway, so I was like, hey, I like we've been in a bus wreck. Like, I love you. I don't know what's going to happen. We're going to the hospital right now. And so she's freaking out. So all that because. And that's my, my number one thought was like, I have to get married. Like I literally, I have my wedding. Like, do not fucking, you know, like, you're going to be fine.

[A]

Don't die before the wedding. Don't die.

[B]

Don't die before the wedding. Yeah, yeah, exactly. So all that being said, we got married. We went to we. The week, like a week or two after that was CMA Week, which was very busy and it was a time where, which is this, this week is also CMA Week. I was, I think pretty sure I was like nominated for a lot. It was a very busy, like a good, like successful week. But I was like a lot going on that week.

[A]

With a bandage wrapped around your head.

[B]

Yeah, I had one. I won BMI Songwriter of the Year that year. Just a lot of. And then immediately after the, like the night of the CMAs, Cali and I, my wife and I flew to LA to go to Thailand for our honeymoon. So after the wreck, I never had like a time to like process it. It was just like I got better and when I could kind of walk and you know, had my head was kind of in good shape, like it was like getting ready for the wedding. It was like immediately. So that December I played a few shows that were not very long runs and we took the bus, but I wouldn't go overnight. I would do it in the morning. Like we would leave early in the morning and make like that six or seven hour trip because it's daylight, you can, you know, you're talking to the.

[A]

Bus driver and that was to make you feel more comfortable, to avoid the travel anxiety.

[B]

Right. And it was a different, obviously a different driver. The one, he's the guy I still have now and he's great, but there's just something about, you know, having the door open to the front and seeing him in there and just knowing we're in good hands and all that. And he's driving like 40 miles an hour on the interstate to make sure we're comfortable. But it, it was really bad. I still just had any sort of bumps or anything. It was, it was really tough. But a year later to the day of the bus accident, out of nowhere I had a full blown panic attack on the golf course, thinking I was having a heart attack and I've never had one before. I've had very mild anxiety, mostly hangover induced, you know what I mean? Like just somewhat it was somewhere I didn't want to be, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. But I've never really had like true crippling anxiety that like, is real anxiety. And. And then the next night I had, I had like two back to back and I was like, I don't know what is going on and went to, went to this intensive therapy thing and we kind of dug up the bus and I did a lot of what they call EMDR therapy. Yep. And man it since then I did that and this other thing at a different facility where they, they like run these like electrical like things through your brain and sort of help sort of center back your thought process or whatever. And between those two things, I haven't even thought about. I'll think about it. But it's such a distant, not scary memory now. I really, truly have rewired that logically processed how random and crazy and improbable the, you know, it is to happen again and all that. So. Long story, but that's, that's, that's. It took a year and, and then kind of my brain, it sort of, you know, it all kind of came back because I never really processed it. And. But when the leaves kind of started changing and you know what I mean, I kind of started associating with, with that time of year again. It just, it came out of me. It was crazy. Yeah. But we're here, man. And I got, still got a staple that my head swallowed somewhere that the doctor, the doctor was like, it's in there, but you'll be all right. It'll be fine.

[A]

You're setting off the metal detectors every time you fly.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Every time I get a mri, I'm like, I'm gonna sleeve that. Maybe it'll flip out.

[A]

Yeah. Holy, man. I mean, I was in the only equivalent I have when I was 20, I got hit head on by a snowplow at 60 miles an hour on.

[B]

In a car.

[A]

Yeah, I was driving. So the snowplow sort of listed across into our lane and just clipped us like that far into the car. But when it's a snowplow, all fucking. Both airbags deployed, windscreen shattered. It like came down my side. So the door was up against the sort of side of my shoulder. But the car stayed on the road. So we just pulled over. But that moment where you said I looked at my other buddy While it was like during it happening was exactly the same thing. I looked at my business partner for like a split second, which I can still see like what that looks like and feels like now. But the travel anxiety thing, in a much, much, much less bad crash than yours with, you know, I walked away from it for three, four months afterward if I was ever in a contra flow without a central reservation. Because the side that you drive on.

[B]

And you're on the left side, Correct? Yeah. Okay, that makes sense. Okay. I was trying to figure out how.

[A]

I was like, yeah, sorry about that. It is the right side of the road, though. You are next to cars coming toward you. And that's the reason that you drive on that side, so that you know how far you are from other cars, so that it's not on the off side, so that you don't accidentally clip someone.

[B]

That makes sense.

[A]

But. And it's the same here, right? Just other side of the road, you're still on the inside against the traffic that's coming that way. But what that means is you've got, you know, vehicles sometimes only 4ft away from you going in. And that's just how people drive. That's how the, the roads work. But that made me feel. That made me feel very, very anxious. And given the fact that that was me from an incident, way less yet. It must be the fact that you've done the EMDR and whatever that like electro something. No, I know exactly what you're talking about. They do it at ways to. Well, in Austin. That's a real credit to the effectiveness of those sorts of treatments.

[B]

Totally.

[A]

For overcoming that. Because that's now liberated you to be able to go back and do your thing.

[B]

Yes, totally.

[A]

How much worse would your quality of life be if you hadn't gone through? You'd still be random panic attacks. Oh, here comes October, November again. Like ready for the golf course panic attack to happen.

[B]

Yeah, dude. And. And the thing is, is like it. There were so many thoughts because like that happened and then that panic kind of for some reason had. It was like it all just sort of came back and I was like, I'm not going to be able to tour anymore. Like, what am I going to do? I don't even know who I am as a. Like my brain is in a completely horrible place and like tour. I rely on touring and like, you know, like, I mean, it was just. It was a mess for a second, but I got it fixed really quick. So.

[A]

Do you think vulnerability and talking about emotions is becoming more acceptable in Male artists now?

[B]

I think so. And I hope that it gets better. You know, I don't think that anybody that talks about that is considered soft by any means. And I know a lot of, I've talked to a lot of artists, very successful artists that deal with their, they're just like, man, my anxiety has been so bad recently and I just, I wish the more public you can make it and the more like people that can openly share that they deal with stuff then like the next time you're going through something, you know, if you're in an award show or something, you can just go find your buddy and be like, hey, I'm freaking out. You know what I mean? Like, just the more acceptable it is. I feel like a lot of a big part of depression and anxiety that makes it worse or, or yeah, that makes it worse is the shame that comes with it because it's, you're not, it's not supposed to be okay or, or you're considered weak or whatever or an inconvenience or whatever that may be. And I just think the more open especially men are about their mental health, the less, the more that the shame and the guilt and the, the burden and all that will just sort of go away. Especially with artists. I mean we're not, we're not human beings were not designed to be famous. We weren't designed to just to travel and to especially artists. We weren't designed to like experience insane levels of serotonin and adrenaline three nights in a row, four or five nights in a row. Sometimes there's, there's a lot that, that's, that you know, people are going to roll their eyes, I know, and just be like, well grasses must be nice, blah, blah, blah. But man, it's just, it's a mental thing that you go through that like, you know, it's just, it's different. It's just I don't think that our brains are wired to experience some of the stuff that, that, that singers or anybody, anybody that's a public figure experiences and, and can take a toll on you, man, male, female, whatever age, whatever.

[A]

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[B]

Yeah, it's. That's true. Just bury it deep on down. That's like the, that's the philosophy my grandfather used to say, talking about my grandmother, you know, she'd have a bad day and he would just say, oh, she's got that damn depression again. Like it was a, like it was a flare out, you know, like it was a rash or something.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. The pollen count is high today. The depression count is high today.

[B]

She's got that damn depression again. Well, yeah, I think so. I think especially in the country, people just didn't have time. They didn't have the. I don't know, it was like, it was like you just, you. Yeah. Kind of like there's no time to worry about that. We've gotta, we've got to figure out how to make a living and whatever, whatever that may be.

[A]

I think that's an interesting point and I guess ties into what you said about the bus story, that if you're super busy, if you've got lots to do, if there's tasks to be completed, can pretty easily sort of suppress and hide away little whispers.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Distraction, Fleeting thoughts. Well, I mean, yeah, sure, maybe I get a little anxious on the bus, but I've got the show to play tonight. And it's sort of the underlying emotion is swept away by a much bigger emotion.

[B]

Sure.

[A]

Which is the dopamine, the serotonin, the adrenaline, all that stuff. Um, but I do think certainly in the music industry on that ascendancy thing. People can hide the emotions that they should be paying a lot of attention to with the energy and the adoration. I mean, I'm on tour at the moment. I played the Cannery in Nashville this week and I was. I was in. I did Boston, Chicago, Nashville, back to. Back to back. So three shows, three states, three days this week, and some. Something that happens at the first show. By the third show, you can't even remember that it's happened. Yeah, you're like, where the. I accidentally called. Oh, no, I accidentally called Nashville. Sorry. I called Chicago la way deep into the show and said it was a Monday and then said it was a Saturday and it wasn't. It was a Friday.

[B]

And I'm like, dude, it happens, man. It kills your memory. And one thing I don't like that I wish I was better at, but also, it just. It's so hard is you can have a cool moment or experience or have cool conversation with a fan, you know, at a place, and then the next time you see them, it's. They're devastated that you don't remember, you know, what. And it's like, I'm so sorry. And they're like, no, we talked about, like, my dead mom or so, you know, I mean, something really sad and like, you don't remember. And it's just. It's. It's hard to remember when you're just gone.

[A]

And I have a friend. I have a friend whose hack for that is. Whenever he meets anybody, this is a bit of a cheap trick, but whenever he meets anybody, he says, have we met before? And if you haven't, they go, no, but. And he's like, I swear, I must have got you mixed up really good. But for him to do it the other way, because I guess if you're deeper into your touring career and you, like, you know, maybe 50% or 25% of the people you have met, they're like, yeah.

[B]

Oh, my God. They go back home. They're like, oh, yeah, I totally remembered us. Yeah.

[A]

I know it is a cheap trip.

[B]

But if, you know, like, if I did that and then somebody was like, yeah, we talked about so and so. Then I would remember.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

But it's just that, like, the face and the.

[A]

Yeah, I had a. So James, my business partner in Utonic, this. This thing. We both played the Apollo in London. Three and a half thousand people. We both sold it out separately. Get that in you, Travis. That'll fuel the rest of the day.

[B]

Sweet.

[A]

He. He played the same show as me. Separate a couple of years before. And we were messaging about it the other day, and we were talking about this, like, what's happening on tour? And he was like, dude, I played the biggest show of my life. Sold out three and a half thousand people in my home country. He's like, I couldn't tell you anything about what happened. I can't tell you anything. I can kind of remember walking out and I've got all the photos, but I remember my show through the lens of the photographer and the videographer now. Yeah, it's like I don't remember it from my own eyes. And it's this. This really interesting paradox that I've never thought about before until starting to do this. When you're in a flow state, which is what everybody's supposed to want to get into, you're really unconscious, right? Like, stuff's just happening. You know, you're set, You've dialed it in. You're halfway through the tour. Like, everything's locked. Yeah, you, you. And you forget what you're doing. And it's really enjoyable, but in this weird way, you're not. You're not.

[B]

You're not.

[A]

You weren't there.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You weren't there for it.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Like, it just happened.

[B]

Have you seen that movie Soul?

[A]

No chance. Is that. That's the Disney one.

[B]

Yeah. And he's a piano player and he dies, and he goes to, like, this purgatory thing.

[A]

Bits of it. Yeah.

[B]

There's one. There's a. There's one little section of this, like, in between heaven kind of thing that they go to. And it's all these people doing, like, weird tasks. And he's like, what is that? And he. They're all like. They're in the Zone. So it's like they're, you know, that's. It's like their soul is like. And the place is called the Zone. And it's like a. One guy's just a sign spinner on the street, you know, but one guy could be a guitar player or whatever it is. But it's. It's the flow state. It's like their body is on earth, but like their soul, you know, they're. They're in that different. Different world, like a different place.

[A]

Isn't that strange, though, that the thing that you want to do most and the place that you want to get to as a performer is the point where you make the fewest memories, like you're not there for it. Yeah, it's just as well.

[B]

It's a complete paradox, dude.

[A]

It's just as well that we've.

[B]

The moments you want to remember the most are those. But it's the. But the mindset you want to be in is the same as that.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

That's insane.

[A]

Yeah. Yeah. The best moments of your career are the ones that you remember the least. Yeah. Isn't that wild?

[B]

It sucks, dude. That's crazy.

[A]

Well, I mean, fortunately, I was gonna say, you live with like a million cameras around you, which. Which helps. But, yeah, there's a bit of a. There's a bit of a melancholy even. I've had that. Right. Looking back. And I go, was I there? And then there's a bit of guilt. I'm like, should I. I should have been more present. Yeah, maybe I should have been more present. You go, well, what's your job? Is your job to be there and to be present, or is your job to put on a good show for the fucking three and a half thousand people that have paid to come and see you?

[B]

Right.

[A]

Yeah. And do your job. Be a professional.

[B]

Yep.

[A]

It's a strange one, dude.

[B]

It's a battle. It's a battle, man. I just. Yeah, I feel like the. I don't know, I approach a lot of. Especially my singing career because of how it came together, like, very randomly that I just. I don't put enough. A lot of pressure on myself to. I don't know, I just approach it very lightly and I'm just like, dude, I'm so lucky to be here. That just. I don't know, I just approach everything that comes with that just lightly. And everything is. I used to be very proud and all that, but I just try to think, you know, this is. None of this is a big deal and. But not. And I just being like, you know, I don't know, I. I've always just thought, like, man, these people you're playing for are just people and you were just a dude and you still are, but, like, you got lucky with your. Your record deal and your artist career and never really planned on doing that, so why not just enjoy it and. And try not to beat yourself up. But there's definitely times where I, you know, like, I'll do something and then be like, did I soak in enough of that? Like, there's a. It's funny. There's a festival in Michigan. Brian o'. Connell. I hope you watch this because you're. You need to hear this. It was called Faster Horses, a Live Nation Festival. And it was by far. I played it twice and it was the greatest crowd I'VE ever played for, and they canceled it. And the last time I played it, I remembered it, and it was great, but I just always assumed that we would be back. And it was like, I'm talking, like, nothing will ever, ever, ever, ever, ever beat it unless we went back there. Like, it just will not happen. And then they canceled it probably forever. And it just, like, that sucks. And it's like, that's a moment where I beat myself up, because I was like, man, we just got off stage and just had a few beers and went to bed. Like, you know, like, we should have celebrated that more or enjoyed that moment a lot more, done something, because had we known it was going to be canceled, you know, we would have really soaked that moment in.

[A]

Dude, that's life.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

That's life.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Right?

[B]

Yep.

[A]

You don't know the last time that you're going to bounce your daughter on your knee.

[B]

Oh, Donnie, you can't. Yeah, dude, I can't even think about it.

[A]

You don't know the last time that you're going to hug your grandmother. You don't know the last time that you're going to get to play a live show. You don't know the last time that you're going to get to be with that bus driver. And the assumption that we always have more is why we don't realize that stuff is slipping away from us during the time. But on the flip side, I think being gentle with yourself, of, you don't know what the future holds.

[B]

Yep.

[A]

You don't know what's going to happen next.

[B]

Everybody experiences that the exact same. I think, too, Right?

[A]

Yeah. Yeah. I should have been more present. I should have remembered it more. I should have treated it with more divinity or sacredness or care and attention. And it's only in retrospect. I should have. As soon as you say I should, it's like, yeah, but you didn't and you didn't know, and there's nothing you could do about it. And if you could have done, you'd have gone and said to the bus driver, let's just put whatever, like the. I should, I should. I should.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Ladies and gentlemen, Hardy. I appreciate the fact.

[B]

Thank you so much, man. It was a great, great conversation.

[A]

Dude, this is ruled. What's next? Are you on tour? What's coming up?

[B]

Yeah. Country. Country tour starts in Canada in February. Apparently, that's the time to go, because they're bored to death. Country tour, Canada in February. I've got the Hardy Fund. Best way to do it is just Google the Hardy Fund and you can donate to that. It's my, my wife and I's charity that we're really excited about. Just, yeah, country, country and country, country, country. The album and the deluxe album and that's it.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Yeah. Got some other stuff that I can't talk about yet, but excited, super excited about. But yeah, I'm excited.

[A]

Appreciate you, man.

[B]

Thank you so much.

[A]

If you are looking for new reading suggestions, look no further than the Modern Wisdom reading list. It is 100 books that you should read before you die. The most interesting, life changing and impactful books I've ever read with descriptions about why I like them and links to go and buy them. And you can get it right now for free by going to ChrisWillX.com books that's ChrisWillX.com books.