#875 - Nedd Brockman - Pushing The Boundaries Of Mental Toughness

Summary

Modern Wisdom Episode #875: Ned Brockman - Pushing The Boundaries Of Mental Toughness

Host: Chris Williamson
Guest: Ned Brockman
Release Date: December 9, 2024

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Introduction

In episode #875 of the Modern Wisdom podcast, Chris Williamson welcomes Ned Brockman, an Australian ultra-marathon runner, motivational speaker, and philanthropist. Known for his extraordinary endurance feats, Ned delves deep into his latest challenge, the mental and physical hardships he endured, and his mission to combat homelessness through his athletic endeavors.

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Ned Brockman's Recent Challenge: Running 1,000 Miles Around a Track

Ned Brockman recently undertook the monumental task of running 1,000 miles around a single track, aiming to complete it in 10.5 days but ultimately finishing in 12.5 days. This effort not only set a personal record but also became a significant fundraising endeavor, raising over $2.5 million for charity.

[01:48] Ned Brockman: "I've only been alive for 25 years as a few guys did it before that, but yeah, ended up 130k a day around a 400-meter athletics track for 12 and a half days."

Motivation and Purpose

Ned's decision to embark on this challenge was fueled by his desire to push his own limits and inspire others. Having previously run across Australia, Ned felt compelled to continue testing his endurance, not for personal glory alone but to support causes close to his heart, particularly homelessness.

[02:43] Ned Brockman: "I wanted to do something every one or two years and thought about running across the length of the UK... So I chose stupidly a thousand miles around a track."

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Training and Preparation

Ned acknowledges his unconventional training approach, describing it as "cowboy-like." Despite having a coach and a nutritionist, much of his preparation was self-driven, focusing heavily on strength training to build resilience and simulate the demands of his upcoming challenge.

[08:32] Ned Brockman: "Very cowboy in the... At the start of this kind of four years, I would say still very cowboy... having to find out yourself what works, what doesn't."

He emphasizes the importance of time under tension and acclimating his body to the repetitive strain of long-distance running, understanding that nothing can truly prepare one for the relentless nature of such an extreme event.

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The 1,000-Mile Track Run: An Endurance Test

Ned's endeavor was fraught with challenges from the outset. An injury eight weeks prior to the event threatened his participation, but his unwavering commitment saw him through. The structure of his daily runs involved completing 160 kilometers each day, divided into manageable "master laps" to maintain mental clarity and prevent burnout.

[12:10] Ned Brockman: "To lane four on the way out... two laps in lane one, two laps in lane two... It was like, that was a master lap."

Mental Struggles and Physical Degradation

As the days progressed, Ned faced severe physical and psychological strain. Sleep deprivation became a significant hurdle, leading to impaired decision-making and heightened exhaustion. By day five, Ned found himself battling not just physical pain but also internal turmoil, questioning his mission and contemplating the cost of his relentless pursuit.

[15:04] Ned Brockman: "Sleep is one of the most important things for recovery... I was like, this could be how I go."

Despite these adversities, Ned's drive to complete the challenge and his inability to abandon his commitments kept him moving forward. The support from his mother played a crucial role in ensuring his safety during these dire moments.

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Charity and Combating Homelessness

Central to Ned's mission is his philanthropic effort to combat homelessness. Through his runs, he raises significant funds and awareness for organizations dedicated to providing shelter and support to those in need. Ned's approach emphasizes the importance of viewing homelessness as a systemic issue rather than a personal failing, advocating for societal empathy and actionable support.

[86:20] Ned Brockman: "If we can make enough noise about it and get people seeing each other, regardless of status, wealth, all those things, seeing each other as human beings... that's why I chose homelessness."

Ned envisions creating an annual "Uncomfortable Challenge" in October, encouraging others to undertake their own difficult tasks to raise funds and awareness, thereby embedding this cause into the national consciousness.

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Reflections on Mental Toughness and Authenticity

Throughout the conversation, Ned touches upon the delicate balance between mental toughness and mental health. He challenges the notion that strong mental resilience equates to suppressed emotions, advocating instead for authenticity and the acknowledgment of one's vulnerabilities.

[61:21] Host: "So, for me, solitude, hard work, my ability to keep going and not need support of other people... is definitely born out of the fact that I needed to."

Ned criticizes the oversimplification of mental toughness as simply being stoic or rebranding toxic masculinity, instead promoting the idea of embracing discomfort to discover deeper personal truths and foster genuine growth.

[34:39] Ned Brockman: "If you're yourself and you have those people that violently love you and can't support you enough... as long as you can see it for that."

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Handling Criticism and Public Perception

Ned addresses the criticism he faced, particularly regarding his methods being labeled as "toxic masculinity." He refutes these claims by clarifying his intentions behind the challenges and emphasizing his genuine desire to inspire and enact positive social change.

[33:18] Host: "thousands of awesome times, but now everybody sees it in a positive light..."

Ned stresses the importance of focusing on the message rather than conforming to traditional notions of toughness, arguing that his approach promotes empathy, resilience, and communal support rather than exclusion or aggression.

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Post-Race Reflections and Recovery

After completing the 1,000-mile run, Ned experienced a tumultuous recovery both physically and mentally. The immediate aftermath involved dealing with injuries, severe exhaustion, and an existential crisis about his purpose and the impact of his actions. However, this period of introspection validated the importance of his mission and reinforced his commitment to continue pushing boundaries.

[72:04] Ned Brockman: "I'm sitting there just like this massive blister... a sigh of like it wasn't even... pure and utter relief that it was over."

Ned recognizes the necessity of embracing both the highs and lows of such endeavors, understanding that the challenges faced during the event amplify the sense of achievement and purpose upon completion.

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Conclusion

Ned Brockman's conversation with Chris Williamson offers a profound exploration of the intersections between extreme physical challenges, mental resilience, and social responsibility. His dedication to pushing personal limits serves not only as a testament to human endurance but also as a catalyst for meaningful social change, particularly in addressing homelessness. Through his authentic approach and unwavering commitment, Ned embodies the essence of modern wisdom: leveraging personal growth to inspire and uplift others.

[93:01] Ned Brockman: "If I could do that without social media, no one would fucking know who I was. But it's a necessary evil. And it's the game we all play."

Ned's journey underscores the importance of authenticity, intentionality, and the relentless pursuit of bettering oneself and, by extension, the broader community.

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Notable Quotes

• Ned Brockman [02:43]: "I wanted to do something every one or two years... something that I use."

• Ned Brockman [08:32]: "Very cowboy in the... At the start... having to find out yourself what works, what doesn't."

• Ned Brockman [15:04]: "Sleep is one of the most important things for recovery... I was like, this could be how I go."

• Ned Brockman [34:39]: "If you're yourself and you have those people that violently love you and can't support you enough... as long as you can see it for that."

• Ned Brockman [61:22]: "I don't want to have to be pushed to, to feel everything that I'm going through... to lean in and to grit my teeth and I'm going to do this really fucking phenomenal..."

• Ned Brockman [86:20]: "If we can make enough noise about it and get people seeing each other, regardless of status, wealth... that's why I chose homelessness."

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Follow Ned Brockman

Stay updated with Ned Brockman's endeavors and support his mission by following him on Instagram at @NedsUncomfortableChallenge and engaging with his various initiatives to combat homelessness and inspire resilience through personal challenges.

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This summary encapsulates the key discussions, insights, and emotional depth of Ned Brockman's conversation with Chris Williamson, providing a comprehensive overview for those who haven't listened to the episode.

Transcript

[Host]

Hello, friends. Welcome back to the show. My guest today is Ned Brockman. He's an Australian ultra marathon runner, motivational speaker and a philanthropist. Is good mental health the same as strong mental toughness? Ned has completed some of the most famous endurance feats in all of Australia. So what's driving him? And does the world actually understand his mission? Expect to learn why Ned ran 1,000 miles around a track, raising over 2 1/2 million dollars for charity. Ned's reaction to the accusation that his event was just toxic masculinity Rebranded what Ned's diet for endurance running looks like, why he hates running, but does it anyway what Ned is doing to combat homelessness. Ned's most transformative moments on his journey, running across Australia and much more. Bit of a cool one. This was recorded while I was in Sydney the day after my live show. So very fun to meet Ned in person. He's a legend. He's doing some unbelievable work and the guy's hard as nails. So, yeah, I really hope that you enjoy this one. But now, ladies and gentlemen, please welcome Ned Brockman. Ben Brockman, welcome to the show.

[Ned Brockman]

How are you, mate?

[Host]

Good. Thank you for coming last night.

[Ned Brockman]

Thank you for having me. It was. It was a fun night. I didn't know what to expect, as I told you last night, but it was a. I feel like a lot of people felt a lot in that room when I saw you. It felt like all the energy was on you. Like, it's quite an intense, I think, environment, that stuff. But it was really cool. I love to hear all the questions and the answers. It was great.

[Host]

Fuck, yeah. Thank you. Talk to me about what you've just finished doing recently. This is the first time you've actually got to sit down on a podcast and talk about it since you completed everything.

[Ned Brockman]

Yeah, I'm a bit traumatized, to be honest. So it's a bit. It's. It's good. I'm excited to talk about it. It's been, as you said, I've just haven't really chosen to do it because I'm. I guess I wanted to process it a bit, but yeah, I ran a thousand miles around a track in what was hoping to be 10 and a half days, but ended up a bit longer than that just due to a few probably being a bit under ready for it, but still completed it in 12 and a half days. Fastest person ever do it since I've been alive, which is a pretty cool stat. U. Um, I've only been alive for 25 years as a few guys did it before that, but yeah, ended up 130k a day around a 400 meter athletics track for 12 and a half days.

[Host]

Why decide to do that particular event?

[Ned Brockman]

A culmination of a few things. I, I ran across Australia two years ago and kind of felt this like desire to want to keep doing these things and push my body that, you know, the more discomfort you put yourself through, the better of a person or, you know, more of a person you become. And off the back of that I knew I wanted to do something every one or two years and thought about running across the length of the UK because I hear a lot of people have done that. Bit too hilly for me so I chose stupidly a thousand miles around a track and yeah, I didn't really think too much about it. I don't really think too much about these things. I'm, I feel like anyone who takes these on are usually a bit older. They're usually, you know, 45, 50, have done 25, 30 years of running prior, only started three and a half, four years ago. So I think my naivety and stubbornness kind of go hand in hand. But yeah, then got to, got to the start of this year and went well, I'm going to do this, going to lock it in and I do a lot of stuff with homelessness and wanted to align the two and ended up, yeah, ended up finishing it in 12 and a half days which throughout the period, throughout that time I've, I don't think I've ever um, felt as much pain as I did in that 12 and a half days.

[Host]

Talk to me about the training preparation.

[Ned Brockman]

Yeah, it was. A lot of people ask that, like the, what's the physical side of things versus what's the mental preparation? I think, you know, obviously as I said, I didn't get the record so I didn't. Probably wasn't physically prepared enough, but I don't think I will be for another 15, 20 years.

[Host]

And that's why accumulating an awful lot of time under tension to get there.

[Ned Brockman]

Of course, of course. And that's like, that's the game. But I feel like at 25 you're somewhat relatable to younger people and also older people. And it's not really running for me. That's the thing. It's just running is the tool I use to feel what I feel and I have almost an ability to get people to watch, I guess. And so I can then push what I want to push by doing that. And so whether that be through helping homelessness or getting people up and moving, inspired to do something.

[Host]

It's like a social change organization masquerading as a fitness pursuit.

[Ned Brockman]

Exactly, exactly.

[Host]

Yeah.

[Ned Brockman]

Because I don't like, even before the Oz Run.

[Host]

Right.

[Ned Brockman]

The Run Across Australia, I didn't really know why I was doing it. I just wanted to, I wanted like, I wanted to feel what it would feel like to run across Australia. I wanted to feel like what it would feel like to run 100k a day. And I'm not willing to just sit back and go, I'll wait till the right time. Because I think in life there is no right time. I think you just have to start these things. And so yeah, off the back of that I didn't really know why or what was going to come of it. And then I saw off the back of the Oz run that there was so many people just in Oz, I guess that went. I was so inspired to run my first marathon or to speak to someone on the street or to whatever it may have been. I was like, I want to give people's something like tangible to be able to put that inspiration into after I do something, it's off the back of this thousand mile run. I wanted to get people allowed to do their own thing as well. So I started Ned's uncomfortable challenge, which was like giving them their own 10 day thing that they can pick and choose to do something hard and feel what I feel. That was kind of like the hope. So the lead up to it was quite intense because I've got this thing, I'm trying to run this almost organization that's trying to help people move and raise money for mobilize homelessness. But then as well train really hard for this thing that you can't give anything else but your undivided attention and.

[Host]

Well, didn't you do. Was it 50 marathons in 50 days while you were at work?

[Ned Brockman]

Yeah, yeah.

[Host]

Not while you were. You, you went to work and then did the marathons after as well.

[Ned Brockman]

I was still a sparky. Yeah, yeah.

[Host]

So I don't know, there's something, you're right. There's something relatable about doing it while you've got the other obligations. Because it's all well and good and very impressive still. Ross Edgley swims around the uk. Fucking unbelievable feat. But he slept six hours on, six hours off. Six hours on, six hours off for the best part of a year. And he had a support crew and he had all the rest of it. And although it's unbelievably inspiring and obviously the pinnacle when it comes to human achievement for distance swimming, another side of you discounts it because you go, well, that's so different to my life. Yeah, that's not like if I had the support crew and if I had that thing, maybe. So the relatability, I think, gets pulled away. So although it must have made the preparation more difficult, the fact that you've got slack to answer and emails and calls and artwork to sign off or whatever the fuck you need to do, I think especially if you're talking about that, there's a degree of relatability because everyone's got to pick the kids up, Everybody's got to walk the dog.

[Ned Brockman]

Yeah, there's always. That's. That was the biggest thing I've learned in the 50 marathons was like, I had to go to work for eight and a half hours. And everyone, as you said, everyone can relate to the fact that they got to go to work and then they get home and they go, right now I just got to feed and. And, you know, whatever it may be, walk the dog. But then I was like, right, I had to run 42k in the afternoon and then also feed myself, also wash my clothes, also, you know, clean my sheets, whatever it might have been. Right. Um. So, yeah, that kind of. But that was like, I'd only been running for six months at that point. Like, I didn't run at school, didn't. Like, I only played rugby and road, but I never ran. So doing that was like a. It was a whole new world.

[Host]

So preparation for the thousand miles. Yep. How strategic are you with this? You said that you kind of pull the rip cord and just jump into stuff. But I know some of my friends that are training for marathons. There's even free apps online that are like, this is how you break down your mileage per week and this is how you do. So it's relatively structured. How structured are you and sort of scientific evidence based, formalized with your process for this kind of stuff. Physically, it's evolved.

[Ned Brockman]

Very cowboy in the. At the start of this kind of four years, the Oz run, I would say still very cowboy. Like, I'll be fine. I'll tough it out. And I learned a lot through that, especially when I started this. I always have a coach dealing with nutritionist, but I think there's something very valuable in just doing it and being like having to find out yourself what works, what doesn't. Yes, there is. People who have done the research and they know. So it's like you need to lean on them. When you don't and haven't found what you can find throughout your own training. But the physical. I guess my lead up, the biggest thing I probably did was strength training. And a lot of it like you can't a lot of people try and run the Ks before the event and realize that they got injured throughout the process or they, they tried to climb too quick. Cause the almost insurmountable achievement there is like too big. We have to make sure we hit those K's so we know we can do it. Where strength training I think gives you that time under tension. But then running on heavy legs and running on, you know, sore calves, whatever it may be, allows you to kind of feel what it feels like to back to back a longer day, after a longer day, after a longer day. But nothing can emulate or simulate what running 160k after 160k feels like. It's like just next level.

[Host]

Okay.

[Ned Brockman]

And you can only really feel that after day one.

[Host]

All right, so you decide to get to the start line and what's the process? You need to break it down. If you're going to try and do a thousand over whatever 10 days, you've got mileage that you're trying to hit per day. Talk me through what a typical day was like once the races came around.

[Ned Brockman]

Yeah, so the goal, I actually got injured prior to the, to the start. Got eight weeks out and I had a bit of a shin overload because I um, I guess probably overdid a little bit. The strength was up but the, the KS I was trying to hit 200k a week roughly with three big strength training days. And I think I just hit a little bit. But I was so close to the event that I was like, I've got all these sponsors, this uncomfortable challenge, the fundraising, all these things were there and I knew I couldn't pull out. So it was like never right time. You must do what you said. Let's just try and work out the best way. A lot of physioing, a lot of praying. Not on, not on my knees because that was sore. But. And then I, I would, yeah. Got to the, got to the start line, essentially went. Had a pretty severe injury from the get go. And the goal was to run 160 a day for 10 days. Ideally. We knew that wasn't probably going to go to plan after about day three or four, but that's what we deal with when it happens. Got day one, did it in 16 hours. That was kind of the goal. Get it 10k done every hour.

[Host]

Is that how you tried to break it up?

[Ned Brockman]

Yeah. And so each lap I would. Each lane, I would do two laps in lane one, two laps in lane two, two laps in lane three, all the way to lane eight, come back to lane one. So that would be 12.8 K. Oh.

[Host]

Because you accumulate a little bit more distance by going out to the edge and it keeps variety, which probably mentally.

[Ned Brockman]

Exactly.

[Host]

Yeah.

[Ned Brockman]

Because just doing 4,000 laps of lane one.

[Host]

Yep.

[Ned Brockman]

Is like, almost completely unachievable in my mind. Where, like, lane one twice, lane two twice, lane three twice.

[Host]

500 laps of.

[Ned Brockman]

Yeah, yeah.

[Host]

Or whatever. Yeah.

[Ned Brockman]

So it was like, that was a master lap. So two laps, lane one, two laps, lane two, all the way to lane.

[Host]

Eight and then back down again.

[Ned Brockman]

So that was one master lap. Had to do 125 master laps.

[Host]

I know this sounds weird.

[Ned Brockman]

It's much more consumable.

[Host]

Yes, I know this sounds funny. Did you have a favorite lane as you were running? Was the one that you looked forward.

[Ned Brockman]

To lane four on the way out? Yeah. The way back home, like, after the.

[Host]

You like that three quarters of the way. Why?

[Ned Brockman]

So it was like lane four on the way that the start wasn't good because you still had. And like the. The tiny little bit of distance. Each lane further out adds up. So when you're over that and you're heading the way out, it's like, oh, I've only got two in lane five now. Which means I've only got three more lanes, which essentially, if I just run for like, two minutes. I've got two laps. Two laps. Oh, cool. I'm done. And then, like, at the end of each master lap, I would eat or lay down, get a rub down or just quickly turn around and go.

[Host]

Were you reversing direction every.

[Ned Brockman]

Every master lap? So I would go that way and then come back.

[Host]

That's a really nice setup. That seems like a good way to mentally break it down. Yeah, exactly.

[Ned Brockman]

But then by, like, by day four, the master labs, it's like, why did I choose to do this?

[Host]

Why?

[Ned Brockman]

I. I don't know. It was almost like this. What's the movie with, oh, Tom Cruise in it where he keeps getting through and then he dies? He has to restart and go again.

[Host]

Oh, fucking day after tomorrow.

[Ned Brockman]

Yeah. Tomorrow will be on something.

[Host]

Yeah, yeah. I fucking love.

[Ned Brockman]

You know the one?

[Host]

Yeah.

[Ned Brockman]

He dies. He keeps waking up in this.

[Host]

Yeah, that's workshop.

[Ned Brockman]

Whatever. Yeah. So I would, like, finish a master lap and I'm so exhausted, like, after day three. Day two was 20 hours day three was 21 hours of running. And then I. So, and to keep the record, I was like, right, I've got to shift that to 12 hours running, two hours resting, two hours sleeping. And in that two hours resting, I was still getting in the shower, eating. So I had like an hour of sleep. And I'd wake up and I'm like, oh, that's right, I've got 12 hours of running. And so that's what would happen. I would get to the physio bed after a master lap and nothing would move. Like, I'd. I'd wake up and it was the exact same thing. Like, I just kept seeing, like, the. My shoes there. Mom hadn't moved. No one had, like, done anything. And on the Oz run, what was nice was like, you'd see a different scene, you'd see different cars, you'd see different people. But here it was like, I'd wake up, I'd see a blue track. I'd say, like, the physio table where it was. The food hasn't moved. And I'm like, I'm in a fucking loop here. What is happening? Like, yeah, you are. I was like, how do I get out of this? And it's like, the only way out is through. Like, the only way out is to get this thing done. And the only way to get this thing done is to put one foot in front of the other. But when you're like day four and you still got a thousand kilometers to go, that's like, terrifying.

[Host]

So talk me through the degradation of your body and legs across this.

[Ned Brockman]

Yeah, I felt quite strong up until about day three. Daylight savings changed, so we went forward an hour, which really fucked my head up.

[Host]

Oh, fuck. You did cross daylight savings?

[Ned Brockman]

Yeah, on day end of day three. So that was like, oh, no, we've lost an hour, even though we hadn't.

[Host]

Yes. Obviously it's from the beginning of the 24 hours to the end of it, but you're using.

[Ned Brockman]

Yeah. And I'm like, no, no, no. And the idea behind the 16 hours was I started at 4pm on day one and wanted to go throughout the night so it wasn't as hot, because here on the track, if you get a hot day, it's like five degrees hotter. And so that after day one, I slept throughout the day, had like, my, my eight sleep, had my. Like the room was blacked out, everything was great.

[Host]

Unreal.

[Ned Brockman]

Yeah. And then after that I realized, which I tried to do in my training was like sleep being cooked and your heart rate being up and how do we get those things down? But yeah, that I was that stress that built up about this whole event. So like after day one, I'm just like, oh God, I got another, you know, 900 miles to go. And so after day one, sleep just never came. Like I just couldn't sleep. So as we discussed last night, like, sleep is one of if the not the most important thing for recovery, right? And if you can't even get two of it a night, the wheels are going to fall off. If you like it or not, you can try and tough it out all you like. And I was doing my best to do that. But day five was when I actually, I haven't really spoken about this to anyone I, except for like the immediate crew. I got to end the day five or day five, six hours. I'd hit 810km, so I was over halfway pretty well on track. But I wasn't really making decisions very well. And I'd started to lose that like almost consciousness. Like I wasn't really there with everyone, even though they were right around me. And mum was like, she's like, do you want to eat? I couldn't even work out if I wanted to make the call to eat. Like I wanted someone to say, you must eat, you must rest, you must drink, you must change your shoes. I just didn't have it in me. And so we got to this point where Mom's like, you either run or go to bed. I'm going to call, go to bed. And I went right at 45 minutes, I'm going to go to bed. 45 minutes. Hopped in bed with my shoes on, clothes on. It's after like a 12 hour day. I'm laying on my bed and my heart rate was at like 110. That's me resting. I'm laying there, I just feel it in my throat. My ears were pulsing, my eyes were forcing out of my head and I'm like, okay, this could be how I go. I reckon genuinely thought this is it because the sleep deprivation thing becomes gnarly. But if you can nap and you can switch it off a little bit, there's little tricks you can play and you know, ultra runners do that all the time. But over that kind of period, it starts to, I think, go the opposite way and like you start to die. And so I'm laying in bed, my throat's like closing up, my nose is bleeding and I go, mom, can you stay out the door? I'm like, not sure what's going to happen here. Like I'm pretty concerned about, like, my health. 20 minutes later, I'm like freaking out. Mom, Mom, Mom. She's like, not there. She's like, left. She's having crisis talks with the team because she's watched me go, I'm going to die. And go on. We need to get him to bed. He needs to sleep and we need to, like, make sure this. Because essentially I was trying to get this record so bad. I was like a wounded dog going, I need to like, kill or be killed, right? And when you're in that mode, you've done what you've done already to get there. You can't make that decision to say, hey, guys, we've got to quickly sleep here. This record's gone, it's fine. Um, so mom comes in and goes, get in this wheelchair. I'm walking in the shower. Get in the shower. You go into bed. I was like, okay, so thank fuck for mom, because otherwise, like, I don't know what would have happened or I would have gone out there and just tried to death march until I couldn't. And then, yeah, ended up getting a bit of a sleep, got about two hours that night and then woke up with a bit of, you know, oomph in my step and kind of like a bit of clarity that this is not about a record. You're 25. It's important to go for them. I think shooting and hoping and putting everything into getting it is really important. But I think what you learn about yourself in continuing to finish what you set out to do is 10 times more important than a flag in the ground to say, I got it.

[Host]

Did you see Ross failed his long distance swim twice?

[Ned Brockman]

Yes.

[Host]

Before he did the one recently in America in Yukon. Yeah, yeah, yeah, sorry, yeah. With that, I think he's got. Of all of the endurance people that I've spoken to and that I know, I think he's got the best mindset around it because he's very. Well, first of all, he is a freak. Like, he's depersonalized so much of this. He talks about suffering as resilience. Is suffering strategically managed?

[Ned Brockman]

I love that dude. He just smiles through the most terrifying, terrifying human.

[Host]

But what I like particularly about his approach is that he doesn't. He doesn't tell himself a story about it. It's not about him. It's not about his capacity. His worth as a human doesn't make him less or more like for doing it. He's just. He sees himself like a science experiment. He is a sports scientist at heart and yet it's interesting thinking about the situation that you were in where you've got the mental capacity, which is the exact thing that you need to use to make good decisions, is the very thing that the situation you're in is depriving you of, which means that your difficult decision becomes infinitely worse. And then you can't even step in to help other people make decisions on your. But you can't even tell other people that you need them to make decisions. You don't even have that level of self awareness. Yeah. So, I mean, the sleep deprivation thing while doing these sorts of events, I think must be one of the most difficult things. The reason that Ross is so good at what he does is his digestion, because he can eat and then be horizontal. I don't know about you. If I eat, I need to be upright for about half an hour. Gravity apparently needs to help me digest shit. Right. But he can happily chug down. Best part of a liter of porridge, piping hot porridge that burns his throat on the way down to warm him from the inside, like a fucking internal edible hot water bottle. And then get back to not only being horizontal, but face down in water.

[Ned Brockman]

Swimming, not saying anything.

[Host]

Exactly. So I wonder if. I wonder if there's a person out there who's like an elite sleeper, who might be a worse runner, who might be a worse lifter, who might be a worse swimmer or whatever. They could win by sleeping. They can. Just the same way Ross can digest at any point. I wonder if there's something that can be done by training sleep more effectively. You know what I mean?

[Ned Brockman]

Yeah, 100%. But it's like. Yeah. I don't know. I also feel there's like a being in that mode of, like. Because I, like, I can imagine Ross's brain is quite like, just constantly. Right. But when you're in that deprived sleep state, I feel like there's a lot more clarity. Not when you're out of it. Right. But, like, in that period of, like, there is. There's nothing else that matters other than the task at hand. There's something so pure about that. Even though, like, I would wake up and go, oh, God, I've got to. I've got to go again.

[Host]

Yeah.

[Ned Brockman]

And even when I finished the run for the next 10 days, I would. I'd been like, napping. I'd finally nap and then I'd wake up from, like, in this terror.

[Host]

You've got to do it again.

[Ned Brockman]

That I've got to get up and go get to lane eight. And Mum's there saying, it's all, it's all good. And my physio, it's fine, mate, you're not, you're not out there. I'm like, I know what you're saying, it's not computing. Like, I appreciate you're telling me I'm here, but I feel like I owe another 170k to the people that are watching on the live stream telling me it's. You know what I mean? Like, there was this. Because you're so wired to get this thing done, you can't just switch that off once you're done. You know what I mean? You can't just go, oh, we're finished. This is fine. It's like a, it's a very traumatic way.

[Host]

In other news, this episode is brought to you by AG1. You are not eating enough fruit and vegetables and you know it. And this is going to help. I tried every green drink I could get my hands on over the space of about three years and I settled on AG1 because it is the best. They genuinely care about holistic health, which is why I've got my mom to take it and my dad to take it and tons of my friends as well. And if I found anything better, I would switch, but I haven't, which is why I still use it. Best of all, there is a 90 day money back guarantee. So you can buy it and try it for 89 days, a full three months, every single day. And if you don't like it for any reason, they'll just give you your money back so you can try it completely risk free. Right now you can get a year's free supply of vitamin D3 and K2 plus 5 free AG1 travel packs and that 90 day money back guarantee by going to the link in the description below or heading to drinkag1.com Modern Wisdom. That's drinkag1.com Modern Wisdom. So get back to where are we now? Day five, Day six.

[Ned Brockman]

Yep. What's happening where we're still going? Essentially I said we need to. I need to work on an 18 hour, six hour rest. So in that six hours, try and get four or three or two.

[Host]

Is this because of the pace, that if you were to push the pace much more quickly, it would be too fatiguing?

[Ned Brockman]

Yeah, it was more just the fact that the lack of sleep thing was there was no way I was finishing it if I wasn't sleeping. I just. You can't tough that out.

[Host]

What was the original time on time off plan?

[Ned Brockman]

It was well the first few days, 16, eight. And in that eight, there'd be six or seven hours. I'm usually a pretty good sleeper, but for some reason it just wasn't the stress of the thing. And yeah, and you can't, you can't fight it. Otherwise you're just sitting there going. And then I would get out earlier and go again. And that's just like not a, not a thing to do. So, yeah, ended up 18 hours. And I was probably. That's when the average dropped down a little bit on those days where I was like, we've just got to get this thing done. But I was pretty proud of the fact that I got through those next, you know, five days, still averaging over 121, 30K. And then I just. What I found and what I usually in these kind of events is like I have some sort of fun, like I have some sort of reprieve with family or with friends or with, you know, at dinner we might be laughing about what happened or what I said or what someone did. This time around, I didn't have one frickin second of it. And for me, as someone who really like laughs about the crap that's going on and like really smiles about the crappy things, I just didn't even have that at all. And so I like, that was really hard for me. And so the majority of the time, like even when we raised a million dollars on day nine and I looked up and I was like, it was the first time I went, oh my God. Like you're actually doing something important and valuable to society and people are clearly inspired, so they're right, they're donating. And it was the first time I actually took a breath and gone, oh, this is. What you're doing is insane.

[Host]

You hadn't found any joy in the suffering up until that point.

[Ned Brockman]

None of it, like not one bit. And then even the night before we finished, we raised like 700,000 that night. We were, I was 2.6 million before I'd finished. And then I just like took a breath in there was, I don't know how many people in the stadium just there to watch. And I was like, you've got to kind of appreciate this because these moments don't happen all the time. And you know, I might get it five or six more times in my life or I die. Like, I want to enjoy these moments. And then even after that I'd seen all this, all this money raise and I still was like, I've got another hundred K to go. And I Had to like just grit the teeth. That final day was a 26 hours nonstop, 160k done. And I crossed the line and I punched that fucking banner. I was just so angry. It was so disheartening because I with the OZ run, like I just had so much joy throughout it. As much as I had the suffering, I also had so much joy. But I think off the back of this I'm actually going to find out so much more about myself and like things I've learned throughout. Going through something so hard and so lack of joy. Yeah, I'm like excited again. I'm yet to work what that is out yet, but I'm sure eventually I'll have that lesson.

[Host]

What were you angry about?

[Ned Brockman]

I think I lost like, I just lost who I was in it because I'm. I am that happy, jovial person and I'm usually bringing everyone up and when, when I'm up, everyone's up in. Especially in the support team. And I think I found that like I was putting a lot more pressure on the crew than I needed to because of how much pain I was in. So that I was angry that like it wasn't as fun for everyone else involved where like I feel like the OS run was much more like that. Yeah. And then just. I think I was also extremely proud to have finished it. But I think that was masked a bit more by the. That it was just so fucking hard. Yeah, it was just so violently hard.

[Host]

Talk to me about physical pains, challenges, such going through it.

[Ned Brockman]

Yeah, I had. So I had 10 O's in both shins, which is like fluid around the tendon sheath, anterior tibialis muscle. So essentially that before.

[Host]

Right.

[Ned Brockman]

Yeah, I had it in the OZ run probably like 20 days in. I had a day three on my right leg and had to have a dicta span on that one for the rest of the run. A what? Addictus band. So for people with drop foot, when they like walk into the bus or they can't pull their shin up, essentially their foot up. It's just a device that goes around the ankle and then a rubber band goes through your laces. And so when you lift your hip up, your foot comes up.

[Host]

All right.

[Ned Brockman]

And then you. Yeah. And so essentially we found that that worked on the.

[Host]

Because it takes the pressure off, having to actually.

[Ned Brockman]

Exactly. When you press off footwise, your calf explodes and then it's down. And that rubber band essentially just pulls your foot up. Yep, Pulls your foot up. And I felt that like that worked on the OZ run. It's a. It's something. If it does go to crap, I can utilize this as a plan to keep moving. We packed another one because we thought maybe my shit will go on the left side. And it did on day. Day eight or nine. So I'm running with like two big dictus bands, rubber bands. People like, what's going on with these leagues? I just have weak shins, apparently. And again, that's another thing that it's over time, you get stronger shins, you do these things. Um, and then my right knee, which I'm still dealing with a little bit, um, essentially I'd lost hip mobility and so my gait was off all of, you know, two centimeters. So when I'd land, my knee would land in every step. So about 400k to go, I had that pain. So I had to walk 200 meters, run 200 meters. Cause at the end of the running of 200 meters, I. The pain was just so immense that I had to like walk to ease it. So for the next 400k, it was just a walk, run, walk, run. And yeah, it was quite funny when people came to run with me. I'm like, I've just got to explain this scenario. Like, Izzy Israel Adesanya flew in from Auckland the second last night. He's like, ready to run with me, fully keen. I'm like, just say no, mate. We're walking and running every tournament. He's like, yep, all good, mate, no worries. But yeah, that, that. I've had a, like, injection in that now just to kind of ease it, but it's all. Nothing structural, which is good. Bloods were all fine apart from like a bit of a gluten response. Just because of the high amount of carb you're eating and the inflammation in the body, those markers are a bit high. But iron was good, everything was good. I was pretty cortisol fine. Liver, liver bit higher from pain meds.

[Host]

But what do you think? That's really interesting because I would have expected hormonally something to have been going on. If you're lying in a bed and your resting heart rate's at 110 and you're only getting half an hour or an hour's sleep and you've got to do all of this work, I think, a lot of the time, because the only thing that we have access to are our thoughts, right? So we know what the inner world is for us. I can't detect what my hormone and estrogen and progesterone levels are, but if your bloods have come back and they're normal. What Relatively normal. What that shows is the power of the framing that you've got inside of you because it's not something systemic that's going on or at least not something that could be measured. Free radicals, other like blah blah, blah in the blood. I'm sure that there will be areas that weren't fully tested, but it just really shows what power you have mentally to be able to make a relatively okay performing physiology. Totally fucked.

[Ned Brockman]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, it's. It's quite, it's quite an interesting thing, isn't it? I, yeah, I was, I was a bit perplexed. We only took them seven days later so I reckon in that period there probably would have been a bit. But like I kind of guess you don't want to take them right then and there. Cause you know it's going to be.

[Host]

That's another fucking. Another source of stress for you as well, by the way. Get in, let's pin you. Blah, blah.

[Ned Brockman]

Of course I would be intrigued to take them throughout and seeing what well they can do.

[Host]

I think they can do little ear for lactate and.

[Ned Brockman]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean it is always interesting but again I just like it for the. Just because I said I was going to do it, I don't. There's no like I'm not trying to prove anything to anyone. It's like one of those ones where it's like this is something I want to attack. Life is, you don't know what's coming tomorrow. So let's set this thing up, let's do it, let's get it done.

[Host]

What does the ultra running community think of you?

[Ned Brockman]

That's a good question. I want to dance. No, I'm not going to dance around this because it's like something that's again being 25, something I never thought I would have dealt with as much. There's purists in everything and I know for a fact that people in boxing and swimming in all those things that take on these events without the, I guess resume of what is supposedly supposed to do in order to attack a.

[Host]

Thousand miles saying that you're the Jake Paul of endurance racing.

[Ned Brockman]

There you go. Perfect fucking God. Don't put that on me.

[Host]

He's got a mullet too.

[Ned Brockman]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I, I was shocked when I first copped a bit of flak for a few things but I'm always like. Even your talk last night talking about like anyone who's spreading negativity. It is funny when you've never copped it that you think they are they so. Oh my God, they must be. Right, because, you know, I'm this lack of this person. I'm not capable, but that person, he's got it. He knows. Yeah. That person's assessment of me is bang on. Like all your close people around you tell you love you. No, they can't be right now. You're fine, mate. What you did. No, not a chance. Who know you so well. But then the Nuffy that said, oh, how dare you pause your watch for this amount of time because it doesn't reflect exactly what it is. Oh, yeah, no, he's. He knows me in and out.

[Host]

It's interesting.

[Ned Brockman]

I think we're just so naturally drawn to make sure. I think innately that's us to want people to love us and want people to approve us and welcome us with open arms, but.

[Host]

So you find the people that don't and work out a way to try and do the thing that will make them love you.

[Ned Brockman]

Yeah, I. When I first went through that, I was like, I'm like, I'm going, oh, fuck. Well, how do I. You just lose so much of yourself by doing that. Like, you become the most broad, have no backbone, stand for nothing. If you're trying to be general and please everyone. So it's. It's good that you have people that don't like you, but if you're yourself and you have those people that violently love you and can't support you enough, like as long as you can see it for that. And exactly as you said, these people are so insecure about themselves and so worried about what people think of them too, that they prefer to spit hate and anger in saying that in the, in the running world, I would say majority of people accept me and appreciate that what I'm doing is, you know, probably a bit dumb and not the road to take, but it's also one that I would not change for the world. I would, I would do the oz run again 10 times over at 22 years old to continue to. Like. I just want people to. I've. I've said it for like the last probably three years. Any keynote I've done, any speaking to anyone. I want people to live. Like live. Just make the most of it. Stop waiting, stop getting on your phone, stop. Just go and do the thing you've always wanted to do. Give. So give without wanting anything in return. I think there's a lot of that where it's like people want something from an exchange or want something from doing something. I feel like if you can just give and give your time or energy or a smile or money to someone or to whatever it is, that is a very rewarding existence. And then to get uncomfortable, I love the fact that you can intentionally put yourself in really hard scenarios and you'll find out things about yourself that you'll never have learned unless you did those things, if you did the hard things. And so, yeah, live, give, get uncomfortable. That's all I want. That's all my messages. And if I can get people to hear that through. What I do, regardless of that being running, swimming, kayaking, rock climbing, whatever I decide to do next. And I'm sure I'll keep ruffling feathers with the purists of the sport who can't stand that a sponsor's paying me what they're paying me or can't stand that I'm getting to speak at these events where they're like, but it should be this guy, because he can run this really fast marathon time. It's like, I appreciate that. And those people are incredible. Those. I could never match it with the elites of the elites in the marathon world or the ultra marathon world. It might take me years to get there, but I hope that I have a message that people can go, yeah, that's cool. I like that. I appreciate that for what he is. And, yeah, I don't want to get that mixed up with me being. I've never gone. I'm the. I'm just attacking this thing because it's there and I feel like I'm capable of doing it. And off the run I did it definitely shows that I am capable. I just have to do the years and years and years. But by the time I'm able to do it, I'll probably want to do something else. So.

[Host]

Yeah. Do you know Will Googe?

[Ned Brockman]

I do.

[Host]

I do.

[Ned Brockman]

He's a. He's a good friend.

[Host]

Yeah. So, Will. I've known Will for years, and, you know, he did his thing, America across America. He did an interesting UK one before the counties. Different counties. Different.

[Ned Brockman]

Either three peaks or four or five peaks.

[Host]

No, no. So this was maybe even before that where he ran. I think it's a marathon in each county in the UK, maybe every day. It was like the 60, 55 or something.

[Ned Brockman]

No, no, no. 40. 30.

[Host]

48.

[Ned Brockman]

30.

[Host]

That was it.

[Ned Brockman]

You're in 48 marathons, 30 days.

[Host]

That was it.

[Ned Brockman]

Yeah.

[Host]

Yes.

[Ned Brockman]

Yeah, I do.

[Host]

That was before all that.

[Ned Brockman]

Yeah.

[Host]

And then he did the thing where he ran across America and not too dissimilar. He's probably maybe like 30. Only a few years older than you. Something like that. For the people that don't know him. Fucking good looking kid. Hot, handsome, Hot big dick.

[Ned Brockman]

Anyway, I haven't seen the date.

[Host]

Yeah, look, you're not British. And he doesn't. I was talking to Rich Rolle about this and he said. What did he refer to it as? He said, the endurance racers are a bit of a granola crowd. They're sort of a bit crusty. And you've got Will, who's trendy, and he wears flares. Yeah, exactly. You know, like a skincare routine.

[Ned Brockman]

Yeah, yeah.

[Host]

And he ends up doing really well on a number of like, pretty fucking extreme events. But it ruffles some feathers.

[Ned Brockman]

People want to hate it. People just want to hate it. And it's like. It's just such a odd way to look at the world. And it's sad. And I think if you can look at. From that pity point of view, it's like. It's actually sad that you can't go, you know what this bloke's been running. He's ex rugby player, he's hot as shit. He's getting deals from a frickin. You know, whatever it may be. And they can't just go, you know, what? Good on you. You ran across America in 55 days. That's fucking incredible. Like, give the man his flowers. Like, let's not hate on people for.

[Host]

What's the response been to Russ Cook?

[Ned Brockman]

I think relatively positive and I'm sure he's copped it and as anyone.

[Host]

Do you think his granola y beard has helped him with that?

[Ned Brockman]

I've been so likable. He's just such a. You can't not like the guy. There's something wrong with you if you can't not like him. You have to like him. He's too just bubbly and funny and like you don't know what's gonna come out. And it's.

[Host]

I remember this is the guy again, for the people that didn't know that he ran the length of Africa. First person ever, I think, to run the. Yeah.

[Ned Brockman]

To the full length. So from bottom of South Africa, top of Tunisia.

[Host]

Yeah. Wherever the fuck it is.

[Ned Brockman]

Yeah.

[Host]

And I remember I was watching him on his Instagram stories halfway through it, and I think he'd managed to get some sort of food poisoning.

[Ned Brockman]

Yeah.

[Host]

And he was running down the road with shit pouring out of his shorts, throwing up and videoing himself just saying that. They're trying to stop me. They're Trying to. They're trying to stop me, but I'm just too fucking fierce. I'm just still here chewing pavement. Yeah. Chewing tarmac, eating asphalt. And I don't know, it's not. I really wish that that was the way that I'm built in those situations. And maybe if I dedicated myself to it, there's something that I could activate. But fuck me, I love seeing someone that is like, seeing somebody that is dealing with suffering with a smile and I don't know, is noble and cool.

[Ned Brockman]

It is. And that's why so many people love Russ. Like, they just want to just give me more rust. Like when he was posting, you know, day 300 of running, he's got his goggles on through the Sahara. Like, that is. That's just. You know what that is? That's authenticity. That's him being him. And I think so many people want to be themselves but don't know how. And you've got this guy who's just so unapologetically himself, and that is. That's attractive and draws you in. And I feel like if we can all do that, that's where you don't have these people that are sad and miserable about their lives. But that's just. That's the way the world is. You're never going to change them. They've got to change themselves.

[Host]

And I wonder if. I wonder if that's part of the reason that you were maybe a bit angry when you finished the race as well, that you have this opportunity to, like, not only be you for your own experience, but also, like, this is what I want to put out. Like, the whole. One of the big reasons of doing this is to set the example. This is how you can deal with suffering with a smile.

[Ned Brockman]

Yeah.

[Host]

This is how you can go through some adversity and be jovial and add levity and. And maybe that was a. As much of a missed opportunity as not completing the race would have been. Not just doing the thing, but how you do the thing.

[Ned Brockman]

Yeah, I guess there's a part of that, but I still feel it. It grabbed a lot of people and went, oh, Jesus, we've got to like this. How is he still going? How is. You know, we've been drawn on live tick tock at 3am going, oh, he's still moving. He's still moving. Like, I know, I know. It got. It definitely got through the message I wanted, but I think, yeah, potentially crossing and went, yeah, maybe. Maybe if I got the record, it still wouldn't have been as important as the what happened anyway, if I did, I still don't believe I would be going, I got this. Like, I don't think that would be the message. I hope it wouldn't be that if. Because as you said at the start, it's like Ross isn't better or worse than anyone because he's done something. He's a human being that's living his life the way he wants to live it.

[Host]

And that's what's quite applied himself in a very specific way.

[Ned Brockman]

Yeah. And it's, it's just cool.

[Host]

In other news, this episode is brought to you by Function. I partnered with Function because I wanted a smarter and more comprehensive way to understand what's happening inside of my body. Function has been an absolute game changer. They run lab tests twice a year that monitor everything from your heart health and your hormone levels to nutrient deficiency and stuff like thyroid function. They even screen for 50 types of cancer at stage one, which is five times more data than you get on a typical annual physical. Testosterone levels play a massive role in your energy and performance. And being able to see them charted over the course of a year with actionable insights to actually improve them gives you a clear path to making your life better. Lab testing like this would usually cost thousands, but with Function, it is only $500. Function has a 300,000 person waiting list, but every Monday they open a few spots for Modern Wisdom listeners and you can get your expert blood work analysis and bypass that 300,000 person waitlist by heading to the link in the description below or going to functionhealth.com modern wisdom. That's functionhealth.com modern wisdom. You. You were saying before. This is something I've been thinking about an awful lot and especially, you know, I'm here in Australia, I've been on tour the first night. I've done three shows in very close succession and each one was the smallest show of this tour and also the biggest show I'd ever done each time. So it was like 1000 people, then 1700 people, then two and a bit thousand people. So each one had escalated up and I especially at the first show, there was a lot of like gripping from me to make sure that I didn't mess up. And it went great. All of the shows went really perfect. You know, I couldn't have asked for them to have gone any better.

[Ned Brockman]

How much prep have you done for those? Like what? Sorry, I'm obviously.

[Host]

No, no, no.

[Ned Brockman]

What, like how long was your preparation for a show of that? Like, because you're so Refined and so clear with what you were for two hours.

[Host]

Yeah, yeah.

[Ned Brockman]

But incredible. Except for the Arthur Shackleton. Oh, yeah.

[Host]

I mean, Arthur Shackleton. But the problem is Ernest Shackleton is the guy that did. Went across Antarctica, but Alfred Lansing is the guy that wrote the book Endurance. And I managed to split the difference between Ernest Shackleton and fucking. Anyway, so sorry. No, no, no. Quite a lot of prep. You know, I ran half of the show last year, maybe 20 times.

[Ned Brockman]

Okay.

[Host]

I did work in progress shows this year in Austin. So I did the. In front of 40 people like a comedian would do, working different bits. And what story do I want to keep in and which story you want to get rid of? What worked? What did they keep exactly. Yeah. What did people like, what didn't they. Which jokes landed well, which didn't. And refined it. And refined it. And refined it and then went through this run. But I realized, especially after the first one, that I was gripping very tightly to the experience. Very. Not fearful, but very on edge. You know, I just wanted to make sure it was very precise and sort of laser focused on the thing. But it's very difficult, I think, to kind of be taking in what's happening whilst focusing on the thing that you're doing. Right. It's very difficult to hold those two positions at once in your mind. Like with maybe your most recent race that you're so laser focused and obsessed on what is this particular thing? You know, the type of race that you're doing is so unvaried. There's no novelty. It's very constricted and constrained. Right. It's like running in a lot. You might as well have fucking ran it on a treadmill.

[Ned Brockman]

Yeah.

[Host]

And I realized Chris Bumstead talked to me about. It's not just about winning. It's about how you win and the story that you tell yourself and the experience that you go through. So not just winning and being a gracious victor or losing and being a gracious loser or whatever, it's like. And how did you feel when you did this thing? Because when you look back, yeah, sure, you can say I ticked the box, I did the tour, I completed the race, I did the whatever. But really, what was the reason for doing the thing? Was for the experience. Yeah, it was for the way that you felt. The energy, the vibe. Right.

[Ned Brockman]

The intensity.

[Host]

Yeah, all of that. Yes. So one of my friends before I did the show in Melbourne was like, how are you feeling tonight? I'm a bit nervous. I've got some propranolol if you want some Beta blockers. And I thought I could use those, but I really want to. Like, I've got myself here. Like, the entire reward is to feel the terror, of course, of hearing a few thousand people outside murmuring, murmuring, murmuring, murmuring. And then the music comes on and you have to walk out. So, yeah, I just think it's really interesting hearing you talk about this experience as one where you maybe did this incredible achievement and raised all of this money and stuff, but internally, the experience maybe that you had left something to be desired from your presence, from the way that you tuck it in from all the rest of it. And I think that, you know, that's another frontier to try and conquer too.

[Ned Brockman]

Yeah.

[Host]

And to talk about that and to say, hey, look, it's not necessarily just about winning or losing or completing it or not completing it. It's also about how you do it outwardly and inwardly as well, I think as well.

[Ned Brockman]

I took on this. I love that whole. What just talked about the. I reckon I took on this probably because I felt I almost had to, not, not for anything. But like, I've told myself I'm doing this every two years and then I did it, or I'd set up that I was going to do it. And so when I'm in it, I'm like, why am I doing this? Even though I know, like, I'm there's intention behind it to do good and get people to move and for myself to experience what I experienced. But like, in those moments of being in it, you being able to have that almost. You talked about last night being just like, be. And to sit in it and be like, how on earth, after, you know, all I've been through or whatever I've done, how have I got to this point where I'm running around a track where it's live streamed, where people are fundraising, where people, like, I find that a really cool thing in itself is like, you've gotten yourself to a point in this life where you've chosen this road, this, this, this and this. You're here. And there was like a few moments there where Tom, who you met last night, he's next to me, and I'm like, why are we. Like, what is happening? Like, what on earth have I done in my life to get me to a point where I'm going, I'm fucking doing this thing regardless of what happens. And that in itself, by finishing that and having those questions like, why are we here? Why are we doing this? Still finishing that and still having those, you know, being Angry, like again, as you said, it's like maybe there's something in that next time is like, well, the next thing I do, whatever it may be, it's like you've got an ability to then make the people around you enjoy it and you try and break it down so that each five hours you have a moment of reflection and go, well, you know what this is actually. But you never ever get to that by not experiencing this real.

[Host]

Exactly. This is how bad it could have gone.

[Ned Brockman]

Yeah.

[Host]

And this is how good I want it to be, of course.

[Ned Brockman]

And like, you know, if I did that, if I broke the record and I did it in 10 days and it was a seamless event. I did 16 hours of running, I got 160 done, eight, six hours, got eight, seven hours sleep, beautiful meal, woke up every day and went again. It just wouldn't be what it is now.

[Host]

Right.

[Ned Brockman]

Like it just wouldn't be the, I guess message of like, how to not give in. And I think that's what I hope I can continue to show is that like it's not about necessarily, you know, being I'm better or worse. It's about going commit and see the damn thing through. Because life on the other side of that, I think is with a perspective of something really cool.

[Host]

Well, it's not just within events you'll have ups and downs, I'm sure, even on the Australia run, even on the marathon after work competition, even within those you've got good days, bad days. But I think if you broaden the time horizon. We talked about this last night as well, that okay, well maybe across events there's going to be some that are better and some that are worse. And some of the worse days within events will make the better days feel better. And some of the worst events across events will make the better events feel better. That what can I take from this? Because fuck knows what the next reason is that you need to galvanize yourself and steal yourself against some sort of a challenge. Maybe it's something in your personal life, maybe it's something that happens professionally. Maybe it's some fucking press story that comes out. Maybe it's the next physical event that you do or one down the line and you need to draw on that. And without that, without the bat, without it going bad or worse, maybe than would have been ideal, the next one actually, you can't survive.

[Ned Brockman]

Yeah.

[Host]

And it's that odd thing where ironic tragedy, that life has to be lived forward but only makes sense in reverse.

[Ned Brockman]

Yeah, of course. And you don't know the lessons from exactly what you're doing until you've done the next.

[Host]

It's why, you know, you'll have heard that story about the farmer's son who gets a horse, finds a horse, it runs away, it comes back, it breaks his leg. The soldiers arrive and then they say, how unfortunate the horse has run away. How fortunate to come back with a herd of them. How unfortunate it's broken your son's leg. How fortunate it means he doesn't get conscripted into the army.

[Ned Brockman]

It's like, well, what's the way you're perceiving?

[Host]

Exactly. And over a broad enough time horizon, I think people generally get what they deserve. Like, you don't need karma or spiritual energy to deliver justice to people. They just need to keep repeating their patterns and habits over and over until reality just gives them what they deserve.

[Ned Brockman]

Yeah.

[Host]

And I think that's kind of, that's why ultimately I have so much faith that good people end up out on top.

[Ned Brockman]

Completely agree. What's your goal with. Not necessarily the podcast, but like, more broadly, when you started. I know it's definitely evolved and what you. I'm assuming from when you started to now and what you hope with it all. But like, what is the hope? Where does it not end? But where does it go for you with the. Because I like, I'm in this not. I wouldn't say it's definitely not lonely chapter, but it's like one of those, you've kind of got a open door mode. You go, what? Where do we take this? Because I have an ability to potentially inspire a heap of people. Or is it. Is it to double down on something else? Is it business? Is it whatever. Like, how do you. Do you just go with it? Or do you have an intention behind where you want to go? Or what's the.

[Host]

What's the. It's a great question. You know, very few bits of sympathy are given to people who have lots of options.

[Ned Brockman]

Yep.

[Host]

Right. Because most people have fewer options than they want. And when somebody says, well, there's lots of different directions that I could go down, they go, oh, what did you do?

[Ned Brockman]

Also made them through a lot of work, of course.

[Host]

Of course. But still.

[Ned Brockman]

Yeah, I know what you're saying.

[Host]

I said it last night. Problems of abundance are always going to be given less sympathy than ones of scarcity, of course. Right. So in some ways you think, well, what a luxurious position to be in. How great that you've got that. But then on the flip side, you have all of this optionality which means that you. The pressure is on you to go down. Is it more virtuous for me to spend all of my time fundraising for homeless people? Or is homelessness even the best charity that I should be doing this for? I could be raising it for a more worthy cause. Maybe I should be swimming instead of running or maybe I should be doing whatever. So in my experience, I've always been bad at long term planning and I kind of came out of the productivity bro world, at least initially. So in that world, you write your epitaph and you've got what's on your headstone and what's written in your obituary. Then you break that down into 10 year chunks, periods into three year sets, into one year goals, into 90 day sprints, into daily actions, and you have this perfectly coordinated. This is how I'm going to get there. I always struggled with that naturally and then laid on top. Any sufficiently quickly growing situation means that optionality breaks out in ways that you couldn't have ever imagined. So for you, five years ago, you didn't even know that things that you could be doing were things that you could say yes to, that even existed.

[Ned Brockman]

No, no, no, no.

[Host]

Right.

[Ned Brockman]

Yeah.

[Host]

So in my experience, it's very difficult to have rigid long term plans, which is why principles and rules are much easier. So for me, I just try and follow my curiosity. I want to keep on learning about stuff I think is important. I want to follow my instinct.

[Ned Brockman]

I like, I like how much you are clearly inquisitive of so many people. It's a really cool trait.

[Host]

Thank you. Yeah, yeah, it's. Honestly, man, I. Everybody is idiosyncratic and varied and they're into distance running and fucking 80s jazz.

[Ned Brockman]

I hate distance running, by the way.

[Host]

Warhammer 40K.

[Ned Brockman]

Yeah.

[Host]

And blah, blah, blah. You know, they're into like, they've got all of these different things that they've got going on. And I kind of get the sense that people like in interested, curious people, like life is an intellectual buffet. Right. And sometimes they want to hear Mark Norman shit talking, doing gay jokes. Sometimes they want to hear about this really intense war story. Sometimes they want to hear about the psychology of female serial killers, whatever, blah, blah, blah.

[Ned Brockman]

Yeah, yeah.

[Host]

And yeah, the job that I have is just to keep satisfying my own curiosity. And if I keep doing that, I think downstream from that everything will go well. Yeah, yeah. That's the only guiding principle at the moment is like just try and do stuff that I think's interesting. Yeah, that's interesting to me. And I think Next year I'm going to start doing some stuff on bullying interventions. Cool. So I happen to have a couple of friends, Tracy Viencore, who's the head of the Canadian Anti Bullying association, and Tony Volk as well, who's another evidence based bullying intervention guy. I really want to see. I don't know of anybody that's talking about bullying very much like, as in.

[Ned Brockman]

Like kids or as.

[Host]

Yes, so specifically for kids, because most bullying occurs in school. The reason that most bullying occurs in school is that for bullying to happen, you need social networks to ossify for a while. And in the workplace, especially with remote work now, people come and go from jobs so much, they don't spend that much time in the office around the same people. But in class you see the same people every single day for five years or for 11 years. Right. If you follow them through like one big school or whatever. So that's how you get locked into these hierarchies and the pecking orders occur. So it's easy to do the intervention there. But really interesting thing that no one is talking about. And there are interventions for Israel helping ex bullied adults to overcome that bullying. We heard about it last night in some of the Q and A's that some of the people have got chips on their shoulder about people that didn't believe in them when they were kids or people that were mean to them or whatever in school and trying to liberate adults from that. Because it's very shameful to be in your 20s, your 30s, your 40s, and still realize that you're driven by this thing, this devil on your shoulder, this kid that probably maybe doesn't even remember.

[Ned Brockman]

Doing it to you.

[Host]

And for you it's still something that fucking crushes you. So were you bullied? Yeah, badly. School okay? Yeah.

[Ned Brockman]

For long? Like the whole schooling.

[Host]

I think when you're in primary school, when you're super young, kids are just like, they're just blobs. Do you know what I mean? So they're not really doing bullying. But then when we got into secondary school, it was never extreme physical violence, but it was that, this sort of very mundane social exclusion that in some ways I think sticks with you for longer because it tells you a story about your position in the world socially, about how you get the love of other people, about how safe you should feel around other people as well. Can you trust other people? Do you need to offer them something in order for them to accept you or want you or, or be friends with you? Do you have a Backup, like, do you have a reinforcements ever?

[Ned Brockman]

Do you feel like you're like, do you feel like some. I know kids should never be bullied, but for you, potentially, it may have aided in your pursuit now, I'm assuming.

[Host]

Absolutely, yeah.

[Ned Brockman]

So is there an argument not saying bully and this is great, but like hard love and hard being like on to that. I don't know. There's something in it because I know so many, myself included. There was definitely bullying at school where I've, you know, you feel like ostracized or not a part of something or laughter because of a certain thing. It's like that it 100% sticks with you. But I also feel that like, I was never, I was never badly, but it was also enough where you're like, well, maybe this will help me in some.

[Host]

I don't disagree. And this is one of the ruthless things about anything difficult that you go through. Again, what I spoke about last night, right, like the. All of your greatest growth has germinated from your lowest points and that.

[Ned Brockman]

But you can't tell someone that in.

[Host]

The moment when you're like, hey, you're, you know, you're going to really appreciate this in 10 years time. This is going to be the thing that's going to propel you to actually to do whatever to, you know, to be the strongest person that stands up at your father's funeral. You're like, that's not. Yeah, exactly. Because in the moment people don't feel good about it. So.

[Ned Brockman]

Yeah.

[Host]

This is one of the most ruthless things I think about difficult life experiences, which is that lots of the things that you're most ashamed of, the dark sides of your personality, your insecurities, your fears, are just the other edge of the strengths that you love most in yourself.

[Ned Brockman]

Yeah.

[Host]

So for me, solitude, hard work, my ability to keep going and not need support of other people, all of that sort of resilience and agency and intentionality is definitely born out of the fact that I needed to. I didn't have anybody else to rely on.

[Ned Brockman]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Host]

So in some weird way, and I think this is, to be honest, how most of the chips, or maybe even all of the chips from my shoulder, at least the conscious ones, I'm sure the subconscious ones are still fucking running. Whammy.

[Ned Brockman]

Yeah, yeah.

[Host]

But the unconscious chips on my shoulder, I realized, well, if the things I'm proud of are the light side of the dark stuff, and the dark stuff wouldn't have come about had I not gone through the difficult stuff, that means I need to Be grateful that I went through those things, which maybe means in a weird, roundabout way, I actually need to be grateful for the people that did it to me or for the situations that I was in, because if I take so much pride and value in those. But the. The only other element that I'd add in here. I always had a problem with people who said it was meant to be. Like this sort of retrospective storytelling of. And the reason I don't like it is, let's say that you're in a car accident and you break a leg and in the hospital bed, despite the fact that you're on a ton of morphine and you're supposed to be miserable and life sucks and loads of bad stuff's going on, you meet your future partner and the nurse that's caring for you or something like that, and you go, see, it was meant to be. I was meant to break my leg. And I'm like, okay, that's one story. Another story is you were in a fucking shit situation and you alchemized it into something amazing. Like, I think when we retrospectively say it was meant to be.

[Ned Brockman]

Yeah.

[Host]

It removes the agency that we had from that situation, which is exactly where we should take all of the lessons and all of the. What's the lesson that you take from. It was meant to be.

[Ned Brockman]

Yeah.

[Host]

Just doing things. Keep doing things until it keeps.

[Ned Brockman]

No.

[Host]

Fuck, no.

[Ned Brockman]

It's like, I can find this out by doing it. Exactly.

[Host]

You went through something hard.

[Ned Brockman]

Yeah.

[Host]

And you made something good out of it. Congratulations.

[Ned Brockman]

That's. This is. I. I've got whole body goosebumps. This is my whole desire behind this uncomfortable challenge. Thing I said at the start is like, I don't. Like. We don't need to be bullied to feel something hard to then go, oh, I'll overcome that.

[Host]

We can bully ourselves.

[Ned Brockman]

Yeah, we can. I mean that in. In the purest way. We should be throwing ourselves in these harder things in order to, you know, learn those lessons. And if you throw. Do that, it's going to be. You're going to learn these things about yourself without, you know, being told you haircut or.

[Host]

Yeah, no, I like that.

[Ned Brockman]

Yeah, that's a bit wild.

[Host]

You might have heard me say that I took that Testosterone level from 495 to 1006 last year. And one of the supplements I used throughout that was Tongkat Ali. I first heard Dr. Andrew Heumann talk about the really impressive effects that tons of research was showing, which sounds great until you realize that most supplements don't actually contain what they're advertising. Momentous makes the only NSF certified Tongkat Ali on the planet, which means it's tested so rigorously that even Olympic athletes can use it. And that is why I partnered with them because they make the most carefully tested, highest quality supplements on earth. So if you're not performing in the gym or the bedroom the way that you would like, or if you just want to improve your testosterone naturally, Tonkata Delhi is a fantastic research backed place to start. Best of all, there is a 30 day money back guarantee so you can buy it completely risk free and if you do not like it for any reason, they will give you your money back. Plus they ship internationally Right now you can get a 20% discount of all their products by going to the link in the description below or heading to livemomentous.com modernwisdom using the code modernwisdom at checkout that's L I V E M O M E N T O U S dot com Modern Wisdom and Modern Wisdom at checkout. Yeah, I really want to just linger on that how you're doing the thing, not just doing the thing, that you have the opportunity to get the promotion, get the new car, have the marriage, do the whatever. And in retrospect, sure you will be able to maybe have the photos and all the rest of it, but the only person that could have experienced whatever it is that you're going through, the only person that could have been on that track that was going to do all of those laps and all of those miles was you. The only person that was going to run across Australia or was going to swim around the uk, was going to run across America or the fucking length of Africa. You go, anybody can watch the videos, even you can watch the videos of you, but only you gets to experience what it's like to do that. And it's this odd blend between do you want to be the absolute best in the world at a thing which I do think can cause you to need it. If you want to be the best, all sacrifices are on the table. Everything. Fucking hell.

[Ned Brockman]

You can't.

[Host]

Life.

[Ned Brockman]

No, no, no.

[Host]

Enjoyment of the event, relationships. Yep, exactly. Family, bank account, reputation, everything, right, it's one thing. But if you are doing something for not being the fastest in the world, if it's not a sports competition or it's not a zero sum game where there's only one winner and you want to just be that one winner, I feel like there's a little bit of tolerance, just a bit of give at the Top. And it's like, where can I sneak in something there? Can I sacrifice 5.0.5% performance to gain 50% presence?

[Ned Brockman]

Yeah.

[Host]

And that's what I think is fucking interesting about all of this stuff that you guys are doing. Whether it's Russ, whether it's Ross, whether it's yourself, whether it's Will.

[Ned Brockman]

It's very well put. I was almost. I was like. When you said, come on the pod. I was excited initially. And then I went, oh, I don't know if I'm like, I had this. It wasn't that I wasn't ready or worthy. It was that I was like, am I ready to talk about what I feel or think? Because of the only. I know what I felt in that thing. So to sit and talk with you, who you are, would be one of the best people to try and get it out. Like, get it out of me. But that is like, again, you can only associate it with something you've ever. You've done. And so then I'm like, oh, do I. Do I really want to do this? Because I want to be able to get to a point where I can explain it to people in the best way possible. So that to me is like, it's a lot of writing. That's a lot of speaking to people. It's a lot of, like, hearing how same with a keynote or a speaking gear is like, well, that didn't work well, so I'm going to say it this way. And so I was a bit, like, nervous about the fact that I might come off as like. It's like it might go straight over people's heads. But I'm like, it's a really cool digital diary of my.

[Host]

Where were you at that time?

[Ned Brockman]

Yeah. And so in five years time, I might laugh about some of the things I've said because I. What the fuck was that? And I'm sure your first bloody podcast, you go, what on earth was I saying? But I think that's what's really freaking cool about this, is like, if I do look back at it and I do look and go, well, that's what I was thinking at the time. And that's what I felt. And that's what.

[Host]

Accurate.

[Ned Brockman]

Yeah, it was exactly right. There's nothing. I'm not hiding anything here. I'm not trying to say I'm something else. It's like, it is just what I am. And I think that's a really cool.

[Host]

Isn't it strange that authenticity is something you need to practice? Like, you need to work at being authentic. There's so many.

[Ned Brockman]

Yeah. That it. Yes. In this. Yes. 100%. Like, how can you. Yeah.

[Host]

Why is it easier to not be you than it is to be you?

[Ned Brockman]

To file in line and just go, oh, well, I'll do what they do.

[Host]

Exactly. Yeah. But you know, so much of what we do, our social lives, especially people that don't have to have long conversations, like, when you. I don't know. I would love to know what the longest, average conversation a person who doesn't need to record it and put it on the Internet has, apart from outside of work. Maybe, like, stolen 20 minutes here and there over dinner with the kids or the partner. Like, little bits here and there. Just the opportunity to ask yourself questions. I had this, like, prescription. My equivalent of Ned's uncomfortable challenge was record a fake podcast with a friend once a week. So you put a phone on, record it, put it on the recording, or pop it in the middle. Because a lot of people want to become better communicators. They want to really understand themselves. Don't. If you're a fan of a podcast, you probably like having interesting conversations anyway, but you don't need to go and fucking publish one. Not everyone's got the time or the inclination to go do it. I was like, if you record it, then you're forced to be rigorous in the way that you think, be precise with these things. But authenticity, oddly enough, is something that has to be discovered because you've got to dig away all of the fucking layers of social expectation and bullshit and decorum and politeness and bullying and past fucking traumas and patterns and tiredness and caffeine and all of that. You got to get rid of all of that to be like, dig, dig, dig, dig, dig. And then finally you hit something. Hit something solid. You're like, oh, fuck, that feels like me. That feels really true.

[Ned Brockman]

Yeah.

[Host]

And it's weird because it's like, how is it easier to not be truthful or authentic or honest than it is to do the other thing? Well, because of all of the social.

[Ned Brockman]

Expectations, it's not as jarring. It's not as like, oh, why is he. Why is he posting about this now?

[Host]

Exactly. Jars.

[Ned Brockman]

Yeah. Yeah. I think that's the other thing with the running thing is, like, I don't. Running's just the tool I use. It's not like. And so when I'm doing this thing and being myself, I think that's why it's so jarring for some people, because they're like, this is not how you meant to be running around a track for a thousand mile. You're meant to be doing it like this. This is how they've always done it. And it's like, well, it's not really me. And to find, I think exactly right, you have to remove everything and find out, like, I don't want to be a sparky. This is. Fuck me, like, I want to do this. I want to find this. And that's why I think it will change over time. It's like this will come. I will be really excited and that's what I will start pushing.

[Host]

Like you mentioned the ptsd.

[Ned Brockman]

Mm.

[Host]

Talk me through. We've got up to the end of the race now.

[Ned Brockman]

Yep.

[Host]

Finishing at least punching the fucking thing was a little bit angry.

[Ned Brockman]

Yep.

[Host]

Recovery next few days, psychologically, physically, all the rest of this stuff. What was that like?

[Ned Brockman]

I drove home from the track. So I'd been that whole 26 hours because my old man is farmer, like through and through. He's like, we live six hours from here, the family farm and he has no idea about directions around the city. And I'm like wheeling in my wheelchair up to my, up to my ute. Hop in. He starts going to the driver's seat like, nah, nah, nah, nah, nah. I hop in. I just knew he'd asked me for freaking directions the whole way home. So I was like, I'm driving. Turned AC DC on and drove home for six hours. No, no, no, no. Back to into Sydney from where I, where I did the track run was like 30 minute drive into the east of Sydney. Where were you? And yeah, but when I got home I was like, I was just in shock. Like I sat for about two hours after the run in the room that we got ready for each day. I'm just like staring at.

[Host]

So you've now been awake like 28 hours?

[Ned Brockman]

28 hours? Yeah. From 4:00am it was now like, yeah, 8:00am the next morning. I'm sitting there just like this massive blister on my car from all the tape because my leg was essentially strapped up to be like a, like a crutch because I was just like stumpy leg, couldn't move it. And then my knee was cooked. Everything. I'm just sitting there, like first breath I took over the whole 12 and a half days of like sigh of relief. The sigh of like it wasn't even. It was no post run endorphins. There was no, like. It was just pure and utter relief that it was over and that I could take a moment to go oh my God. What just happened, guys? So then went home, laid on the couch, and I just was in this, like, tweaking out stage for like 12 hours, I reckon. Just like in and out, in and out. And there'd be food in front of me and I'd go to sleep and I'm like, oh, lane eight. And then I. I did not sleep well for the next seven days. I would. I would nap a lot. And I'm very like, I have to move every day. Like, I have to get my body up and do an hour of something. Otherwise I'm like, you know, it's not good get. If I say in the afternoon and I haven't done something, I'm like, this is nasty. I don't know why. It's just in me. It's not like I can control it, but I feel much better for doing it. So I'm like, now three, four days of not doing any exercise and I've just done so much to get in to turn off is near impossible. So in bed, yeah, I'd just be up all night staring at the ceiling, and then I'd finally get asleep on the couch and that's when I'd wake up. Just like, it's a really, really hard thing to explain because you're like, you know, it's all okay, and everyone right around you saying, it is fine, it is fine. Yet you're like, I don't trust you. Like, I'm a. I'm literally trying to do this thing and it's not done. I'd had it on the Oz run where I had like, road trains because they were constantly on the, like, trucks, big trucks, big trailers. They were constantly on the highway. And I'd. I reckon I'd run past a hundred of them each day over the hundred K. We'd get into one of the roadhouses where I'd sleep for the night. And the whole night I just have these road trains coming at me. And I'd be like, spitting at the wall because I was spitting so much because there's so much dust in my mouth throughout the whole run. So I'd be like, traumatized. Like, road train of jump. And then I'd like spit at the wall. And I'm like, I'm in a room, I can't spit at walls. Or like, I'd wake up in like a panic. And so I kind of knew what to expect this time around. I knew that this would happen and I kind of like weirdly enjoyed it. Like, when do you get to that point where you actually get to feel those things because of what you've done to yourself. And then that's what I really like in this period now is that I know I'm going to crash for certain. I know there'll be a point where I'm bit lost. I've, you know, devoted my life to this pursuit of this thing with no real plans after it. And I kind of give myself that time now because you can't have ups without downs. You can't have downs without ups. I love feeling those downs. Like I love feeling that because I know when I do process what just happened, I'll be so much prouder and so much more grateful about the $5 million we raise. You know, like, it's those things. I don't think you can feel the beauty of those without this kind of really downtime. And I'm, I'm okay, I know how to deal with those. But it is, it is one of those things that I think people kind of push away is like, oh, I can't feel terrible. I need to like, I think lean into it. The way you lean into feeling good and finishing. You should lean into like, why is my head like this? Why am I feeling these things? What's this emotion? I love those like more than anything.

[Host]

In other news, this episode is brought to you by Shopify. Look, you're not going into business to learn about how to code or build a website or do backend inventory management. Shopify takes all of that off your hands and allows you to focus on the job that you came here to do, which is designing and selling a cool product. Businesses that sell more sell on Shopify and that is why they are the global force behind Gymshark and Skims and Allo and Nutonic. When it comes to converting browsers into buyers, they are best in class. Their checkout is 36% better on average compared to other leading commerce platforms. And with shop pay, you can also boost conversions by up to 50%. Best of all, their award winning support is there to help you every step of the way. So upgrade your business today and get the exact same checkout that we use at Nutonic on Shopify. Sign up for a $1 per month trial period at the link in the Description below or shopify.com modern wisdom or lowercase that's shopify.com modern wisdom to upgrade your selling today. I started realizing this to do with meditation a little while ago. That do you do every day? I try to. It's difficult when I'm on tour, but Yeah, I try to and I just can't.

[Ned Brockman]

I mean, I can. If I. If I gave. If I intentionally wanted to do it, I would be able to do it, but I just. I just haven't given myself the, I think, okay to do it.

[Host]

It seems like running might be a pretty good proxy for that. For you, relief. But what I realized was people have a variety of modalities. Maybe it's fucking weightlifting. Maybe it's running, maybe it's meditation, maybe it's breath work, maybe it's whatever. A lot of the time when you feel an emotion that arises inside of you, especially one that you don't like, you have some sort of coping mechanism that makes it go away. Now you can alchemize it into something beautiful, Right? You know, running a thousand miles around a track or do it, you know, doing whatever rusted, you know, that I feel something and I'm going to lean in and I'm going to grit my teeth and I'm going to do this really fucking phenomenal, great way to turn something, like, pretty bad and useless into something that's really magnificent. But the same thing with meditation. Emotion arises inside of you. You release and allow it. Okay. You still haven't actually got to the root of where that fucking emotion is coming from. And this is only something I learned since doing therapy over the last year, that it's like you can keep doing that and you can have really beautiful coping mechanisms.

[Ned Brockman]

Yeah.

[Host]

The one that makes you run, the one that makes you lift the weights, the one that makes you swim around the uk, the one that helps you to be more mindful or a peaceful person. But it still doesn't get to the actual core. At no point are you going. You're finding a way to get it up and out of you, but at no point are you actually looking inside and going, yeah, but why does that keep coming up? Like, why is that thing there? And not everything actually needs assessment in that way. There's some stuff that just.

[Ned Brockman]

I think there's a lot. Way too much getting assessed.

[Host]

Yes. There's stuff that just is. You do this very intense thing. You dedicate yourself to something for a long time out the other side of it. What the fuck did you expect? Yeah, of course you've been single, you've been, like, monomaniacally focused on this one thing for months and months and months, and then you finally do it. There's a fucking existential crisis coming. Like, it's gonna happen, always gonna happen to every person that does that sort of a thing. But on the other side, the stuff that's oddly like more mundane, I think the patterns, the assumptions you have about yourself and about the world, your relationship, your place in it. It's like, hey, if that thing keeps coming up, even if you've got a great, beautiful coping strategy, you can either continue to keep on coping and coping and coping and coping for the rest of your life or you get rid of it. But here's the fucking dangerous thing that a lot of people probably think, which is, well, if I get rid of the emotion, what about the useful coping? What if my desire to go to the gym or to run the races or to be mindful or to be peaceful, what if that goes away? What if that goes away because. What if the only reason I do the good things is because the bad thing that's motivating it? And that's sort of honestly like a fear of peace. It's very much a fear of novelty. It's like, well, I've kind of got some kind of stasis here. And even if it's like a little bit out of balance, I've managed to get it back into balance. And if I take something away, even if it makes life better, I'm now out of balance again. I've got to all compensate.

[Ned Brockman]

So do you feel like you've got like a just you need to do things, or do you feel like you're at peace with whatever happens? This way we go, life's good.

[Host]

No, I have very much a need for control in my life. I'm very sort of structured, very organized, very routineized. Yeah, and getting more used to being sort of free flowing in that way might be useful. But then on the flip side, people are constructed differently and we find solutions that work for us. And this is one of the reasons why I'm so hesitant about anybody that gives one size fits all answers to success or mindfulness or what you should do in life and stuff. Because what most people have done that are successful is they have found a very specific way that works for their mental pathology and their fucking construction.

[Ned Brockman]

Who's exactly what their environments were, what exactly.

[Host]

So, Matthew Sayad, sports reporter in the tennis world, really interesting. Djokovic, Nadal and Federer all were world champions at the same time, but all of them have massively different training styles. One super aggressive, one's super fun, one's super robotic, but all of them traded places. So you go, if I want to be a world tennis champion, which one do I do? And you go, well, it depends who you fucking are.

[Ned Brockman]

Yeah, you might.

[Host]

Every one of them has been a fucking tennis champion.

[Ned Brockman]

Yeah.

[Host]

And all of them have different approaches.

[Ned Brockman]

So I love about that. I don't know who it was on your pod. When you talk about the. You know, you might be 98% right.

[Host]

Yes. Richard Reeves.

[Ned Brockman]

Yeah. So. And then that the 2% right. Is something that you should still listen to. Like people being certain on something that is potentially not so certain is a.

[Host]

Is an odd way share the truth between us.

[Ned Brockman]

Yeah. I love that so much. It was a really good way to be.

[Host]

What did you make of that Jill Stark article that was written about you?

[Ned Brockman]

I haven't really spoken about too many people. I think it has evoked. It's allowed people to start conversation about this topic. And I'm the least. I would like to say toxic human being. I'm not at all. And the fact that, you know, my mother was my immediate support person shows that, like, I can't really. Like she is. I would love Jill to speak to my mother. Like, that would be amazing. I think it was quite opportunistic. I think it was like a bit of a clickbaity kind of article. But, yeah, I think it's allowed people to question. And there is the gym, bro. I must be tough. I must not deal with emotions. I must be stoic. And no one, you know, do not talk about emotions. There's that side of things that's. That needs to probably be addressed a bit more. But then there's the like. We also don't need to be too aware of our emotions all the time. I think you need to be aware, but use them to your benefit and be. Yeah. I mean, I don't. I just don't want to. I don't want to get too on Zachary.

[Host]

I understand.

[Ned Brockman]

Yeah. But I just think I got nothing against Jill. I'm sure she's amazing. I didn't read too much of the article. I just saw it. I just knew it was a tainted. A really. It was just not needed.

[Host]

Yeah.

[Ned Brockman]

Because it didn't do that.

[Host]

For the people that didn't read it, men's mental toughness is just toxic masculinity. Rebranded cult hero ned Brockman's grueling 1600 kilometer charity run has Aussies talking. But now everybody sees it in a positive light, basically, that doing hard physical things denies you of tapping into your emotions in a way, it's a coping mechanism, et cetera, et cetera. Look, I think that the modern world has a multiplicity of problems. One of them is victimhood. One of them Is people needing more resilience. They need Goggins screaming in their face.

[Ned Brockman]

Yeah.

[Host]

Another group of people are the ones who do push too hard and that do need someone to say, hey, man, maybe you should slow down, like read some poetry outside or go for a walk or do whatever. And I think horses for courses with regards to this. If you are someone that is doing something very, very good and very, very hard and very, very inspiring, fair enough.

[Ned Brockman]

Hell, fair enough.

[Host]

Like, yeah, it's very, very different and very difficult. There's a really interesting study out of the US and Taiwan that showed men who suppress positive emotions have worse mental health outcomes than ones who suppress negative emotions. So, you know when we're talking about all of the dangers of men not opening up and all the rest of it, I spend a ton of time in the live show that I've done here talking about opening up and opening up on stage, but very few people are saying, what about helping yourself to achieve some glory and some pride and to conquer something and get mastery and feel really good and positive? What about like, oh, guys, listen, I'm sure that there's an article out there that says this, guys, listening to heavy metal music in the car whilst on caffeine is like right wing coded or whatever. You know, there's all of this like, silly thing, like fitness is right wing coded. You go, yeah, but what if it makes them feel happy and fucking full for the day? What if that's their favorite part of the day?

[Ned Brockman]

Yeah. And they rock up to their family and they're inspired and ready to go? Yeah, like, yeah, I think it's. I just. There was a friend of mine, shared an article that talked about the Jill Stark article and me and then just framed it in a really like, well, what a. What is different to Ned Brockman running a thousand miles and screaming because he's in pain or, yeah. Being happy because he finished another day. To Jessica Watson, who sailed around the world and being excited, like, what's the difference? We're men and women. We're pursuing something hard and we're showing ourselves. I'm not, I'm not saying be tough, be a man. I'm saying be tough. Do. Do an uncomfortable challenge. Go and sleep on the street. Speak to someone on the street. This is not gender toxic masculinity related at all. This is do hard things because you will grow. And to paint it with that brush is just so out of context.

[Host]

What's the sleeping on the street thing?

[Ned Brockman]

Oh, we like, just as part of the uncomfortable challenge, people signed up and said, well, I'm going to go on street, sleep on the street and see what it feels like for 10 days.

[Host]

Wow, that's one of the.

[Ned Brockman]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And speaking to people on the street for 10 days or no, like all those things. But that was. Yeah, someone did.

[Host]

Why is homelessness such a big thing?

[Ned Brockman]

For me?

[Host]

Yes.

[Ned Brockman]

The fact that we're all human beings and I feel like no one ever wants to be homeless, that no one's chosen to be homeless. They're whatever. For whatever reason they've ended up there. A lot of homelessness is a lot out of their control. I've been fortunate enough to have the backing like my family there and if something goes wrong, I can always rely on them. A lot of people don't have anyone to rely on. And then they go down a path of, you know, it just. For me, I feel for these people because they didn't have the same access to things that I had throughout my upbringing and even an education or. Yeah. You know, all those things that I just feel we all should have the ability to know. We have a roof over our head, a shower at night and a good, good bit of tucker to eat every day. So that for me, I just like, I want to bring awareness to it. I don't know how to fix it. I don't know how to solve homelessness. But what I do know is if we can make enough noise about it and get people seeing each other, regardless of status, wealth, all those things, seeing each other as human beings. I think that's why I chose homelessness, because I think by being in the front of the public eye and having that voice, you can get everyone involved and go, oh, this is something we can, we can help.

[Host]

Is it a big problem in Australia?

[Ned Brockman]

It's nowhere near as a state. When I went over there, I was like blown away. It was crazy in la. And yeah, it's. I, I was, I was crying all the time. I was like, this is up. Like, this is sad. But there's126,000 in Australia every sleeping rough. Yeah. So that, that doesn't mean on the street, but that means car couch surfing. Yeah. I mean, I'm just, I'm compassionate for that because I don't like, I would hate to see someone I know personally in that scenario. And I, as I said, we're all just human beings. We all have, we all should have the same access to things and I think we're also, we have access to so much. So why can't we help Those people.

[Host]

There was a Prince William documentary about homelessness. Do you see this?

[Ned Brockman]

I haven't seen it.

[Host]

I've seen it. Prince William is criticized for a big new documentary saying he will show the UK how to prevent homelessness. The main critics said that you should leave it to the experts and non government movement leaders aren't needed. Very strange.

[Ned Brockman]

Yeah. And I think like with Mobilize the charity I'm working with, it's really exciting. We're seeing like the noise created from this that it's now going, oh, government's got to get involved because it's almost too loud to not take on. So they're getting behind it now because of what we've done and the funding and it's going to become this. Hopefully. It's like we've started something that gets people off the street and gets people into safe housing, into kids into school, things like that. Where, you know, you see a mother with a child who's living out of a car or like that stuff is.

[Host]

It's interesting, man. Bottom up social change campaigns for stuff that everybody broadly already agrees with. It's like, well, why did we need this much motivation to get this thing moving? In any case, no one wants more homelessness.

[Ned Brockman]

No.

[Host]

You know, like the homeless people don't want it and the housed people don't want it.

[Ned Brockman]

Yeah.

[Host]

Like no one wants more homelessness.

[Ned Brockman]

Why is it taking this?

[Host]

Yeah, exactly. But I don't know, it kind of makes me think, well, maybe that was a. It's evidently a worthwhile effort if it takes still a lot of work, of course, but relatively like a minimal amount of work in order to cause this big sort of snowball moving downhill. You know what I mean?

[Ned Brockman]

It's very cool.

[Host]

Yeah, it is cool. What else would you be interested in looking at? Is homelessness just the entirety of your.

[Ned Brockman]

It's not. Not necessarily like this, is it? Right. It's like I would say the. Through what I've done now, my passion is definitely getting people moving and live give and get uncomfortable. I think that's the big message. But, um, right now, the homelessness scene, I want to, I want to end it. I want to get people like, I want to see the change happen in real time. So that's why I want. I don't, I don't want to be an ultra runner that goes. I'm going to raise for this one this time because it's favor of the month. Like, I'm. I genuinely care about homelessness. And the thing with these guys too, is they work with everyone, it's not them trying to fix it. It's them going, we want to work with everyone who's already. So it's like, whether it's orange sky, like people who clean clothes or haircuts, or all these things are already established at the top. And yeah, they go, here's. We've got the funding. Here you go, let's help. Let's help. Let's do this.

[Host]

That's awesome.

[Ned Brockman]

Yeah, it's really, really cool. So it's not about them being the ones who've done it. It's them helping and facilitating everyone else who's helping as well. Wow. And the funding, because of the. There's no red tape. It's not caught up in government stuff. It's. This is funding from the 55,000 people who donated and the big corpus you got behind it. It's like, here we go. Go nuts. And hopefully that through the Uncomfortable Challenge, every year, people just like Movember, right? That's the goal I want it to be. I want everyone doing it in October. I want everyone doing an uncomfortable Challenge because it's like that time of the year where we go, oh, yeah, that's where we do this hard thing and we raise money for people who need it.

[Host]

It's like, this is going to be an October thing annually.

[Ned Brockman]

Calling it Nuktober Ned's Uncomfortable Challenge. October.

[Host]

Oh, very nice.

[Ned Brockman]

Yeah, Yeah, I want it. I want it, like, that's my goal. And that's, again, that might be. The next thing I go into is like, let's build this thing out so it becomes this ingrained in the nation's psyche. Like, and I love shooting for the stars. I love, like, taking on a challenge. It might be impossible, but in the pursuit of it, I think is a pretty cool. Whatever happens, it can't. It can't be bad.

[Host]

The result, dude, I love it. I appreciate the fuck out of you and I'm really excited to see what you do next.

[Ned Brockman]

Appreciate it, man. I've really, really enjoyed today and I appreciate you. Thanks for last night and. Yeah, you're a good man.

[Host]

My pleasure. Why should people go Keep up to date with the charity stuff. Your stuff, Everything else.

[Ned Brockman]

Yeah, just Ned Brockman, Ned's Uncomfortable Challenge on Instagram. I mean, social media is a necessary evil for these things.

[Host]

I.

[Ned Brockman]

If I could. I do mean this. If I could not be on social media and still raise the money, inspire. And, you know, there's a commercial aspect of things, so you have to do what you have to do. But if I could do that without social media, no one would fucking know who I was. But it's a necessary evil. And it's the game we all play.

[Host]

The ultimate price that you have to pay.

[Ned Brockman]

Exactly.

[Host]

Being on Instagram. Appreciate you.

[Ned Brockman]

Appreciate it.