#901 - Tom Segura - Why Does The Modern World Make No Sense?

Summary

Modern Wisdom Episode #901: Tom Segura - Why Does The Modern World Make No Sense?

Release Date: February 10, 2025

Hosts: Chris Williamson (A) and Tom Segura (B)

---

Introduction

In episode #901 of Modern Wisdom, host Chris Williamson engages in a candid and insightful conversation with comedian and podcast host Tom Segura. The discussion traverses a multitude of topics, from health and fitness transformations to societal shifts and personal growth, providing listeners with a deep dive into the complexities of navigating the modern world.

---

Health and Fitness Transformation

Addressing Continuous Self-Improvement

Tom Segura opens up about his decade-long journey toward better health and fitness. Reflecting on photos from ten years ago where he was noticeably larger, Tom explains that maintaining health is an ongoing process rather than a one-time fix.

Tom Segura [00:06]: "You just, you know, it's an always happening thing... it's something that you are just thinking about, I think, all the time."

The Allure and Limits of the "Gross Sack" Lifestyle

Tom reminisces about his former lifestyle characterized by smoking, late nights, and minimal self-care. While he acknowledges the perceived freedom in such a lifestyle, he emphasizes its unsustainable nature and the inevitable decline in physical and psychological well-being.

Tom Segura [01:50]: "When you're really in it, there's a kind of a freedom to being like, I'm a gross sack of... but I do think it has an expiration date."

Building Genuine Habits Over Quick Fixes

Discussing the pitfalls of relying solely on supplements like GLP-1 drugs (e.g., Ozempic) for weight loss, Tom warns about the loss of lean muscle mass and advocates for traditional methods involving proper nutrition and consistent training for sustainable results.

Tom Segura [08:18]: "People lose muscle mass and they're losing at a much higher rate than they think they are."

---

The Unteachability of Certain Life Lessons

Experiential Learning vs. Theoretical Advice

Both hosts agree that some life lessons cannot be fully grasped through books or external advice alone. Experiencing challenges firsthand leads to deeper understanding and personal growth.

Chris Williamson [03:26]: "The lesson is not gonna... It's not gonna affect you the way that actually experiencing it will."

The Limitations of Standard Advice

Tom expresses his reluctance to offer conventional advice to aspiring comedians or individuals striving for self-improvement, emphasizing the importance of personal experimentation and finding one's unique path.

Tom Segura [03:14]: "The way to do it is to do things you think you're supposed to do, and then you figure out how to actually do whether or not you're supposed to do them."

---

Societal Shifts: Body Positivity and Acceptance Movements

Critique of the Fat Acceptance Movement

Tom voices his frustration with the body positivity movement, particularly how it has sometimes led to contradictory messages about health and self-improvement. He argues that while acceptance is important, it should not negate the value of striving for better health.

Tom Segura [16:31]: "I hate the fat acceptance. The moment that you had an easy route out of being overweight, body positivity went out of the window."

Impact of Celebrities and Public Figures

The conversation touches on how public figures using medical interventions for weight loss are perceived. Tom points out the skepticism surrounding natural versus assisted weight loss, highlighting society's bias towards hard work over perceived shortcuts.

Tom Segura [22:25]: "You have to work at it. Whether you're going for the juice head that wants to be like super jacked or the person who's just trying to lose weight."

---

The Influence of Social Media Algorithms on Mental Health

Algorithmic Nudging and Preference Shaping

Chris introduces concepts from Stuart Russell about how algorithms not only predict user preferences but also nudge them towards more predictable behaviors. This dual influence can shape user preferences over time, often exacerbating mental health issues.

Chris Williamson [27:03]: "Algorithms nudge people's preferences so that they become easier to predict."

Strategies to Mitigate Negative Impacts

Both hosts discuss practical approaches to managing social media consumption, such as using "not interested" features and considering full algorithm resets to regain control over personal content consumption.

Tom Segura [28:35]: "I've actually utilized the thing a lot on Instagram. The not interested... hopefully just to get like something new."

---

Decline of Nightlife and Changing Youth Culture

Reduction in Alcohol Consumption Among Gen Z

Statistics reveal a significant decline in alcohol use among Gen Z, with more individuals opting for alternatives like marijuana and microdosing. This shift is attributed to greater awareness of health impacts and the availability of diverse recreational options.

Tom Segura [35:12]: "There's a lot more options... it's widely accepted today than it was 20 years ago."

Impact on Nightlife Industry

The hosts discuss the dwindling number of nightclubs, attributing it to the rise of smartphone use and the shift away from traditional partying culture. The permanence of online records makes nightlife behaviors far more visible and less forgiving.

Chris Williamson [37:07]: "Smartphones... now, that mess up the perception when you do something."

---

Rising Rates of Sexlessness Among Young Adults

Increasing Loneliness and Its Consequences

Tom highlights alarming statistics showing a rise in sexlessness among adults aged 22 to 34, linking it to broader issues of loneliness and social isolation. The conversation delves into how societal changes and cultural narratives contribute to this trend.

Tom Segura [40:03]: "There's a real, real pervasive issue of loneliness..."

Relationship Dynamics and Fear of Interaction

The discussion explores how contemporary social narratives, such as those stemming from the #MeToo movement, have instilled fear and hesitation in young men regarding interactions with women, further exacerbating loneliness and sexlessness.

Tom Segura [44:35]: "How can you have the strictest gun laws, but like, if you want a gun and you're like, I'm getting one..."

---

Communication and Self-Advocacy

Challenges in Expressing Needs

Both Chris and Tom emphasize the difficulty individuals face in advocating for themselves, especially when surrounded by internal self-criticism and societal pressures. They stress the importance of developing assertive communication skills to foster healthier relationships and personal well-being.

Chris Williamson [61:07]: "You go, well, you didn't fucking tell me."

Breaking the Cycle of Self-Loathing

The hosts discuss strategies to overcome negative self-talk, advocating for proactive actions over internal suffering as a means to achieve personal goals and improve mental health.

Tom Segura [68:19]: "Doing something is the way to getting where you want to go."

---

The Psychology of True Crime Fascination

Understanding Criminal Behavior

Tom expresses his fascination with true crime, delving into the psychological motivations behind criminal actions. He draws parallels between violent criminals and malignant narcissists, pondering the environmental and genetic factors that drive individuals to commit heinous acts.

Tom Segura [112:26]: "I'm fascinated by the fact that somebody does that... how somebody becomes that."

Empathy and Cognitive Dissonance

The conversation touches on the cognitive dissonance experienced when witnessing the cold, calculated behavior of criminals, juxtaposed with societal expectations of emotional responses, further deepening the intrigue surrounding true crime narratives.

Tom Segura [117:05]: "You have to have this weird power balance."

---

Cultivated Stupidity vs. Overthinking

Embracing Simplicity for Success

Chris and Tom explore the concept of "cultivated stupidity," advocating for simplicity and focused action over overcomplicating personal and professional pursuits. They argue that excessive self-analysis can hinder progress and lead to inaction.

Tom Segura [89:14]: "Like, solid flat line. The only thing you can be is the guy on the left."

The Midwit Meme and Intelligence Perception

The hosts discuss the "midwit meme," highlighting how individuals in the middle of the intelligence spectrum often complicate solutions, presenting themselves as smarter yet achieving less. They contrast this with highly competent individuals who, despite their skills, are perceived as cold or detached.

Tom Segura [83:47]: "Some people just don't know they're the guy on the left."

---

Personal Anecdotes and Reflections

Overcoming Personal Struggles

Tom shares personal stories about friends battling severe health issues and the complexities of supporting loved ones who resist self-improvement despite clear signs of need. These anecdotes underscore the challenges of fostering change in oneself and others.

Tom Segura [74:35]: "He just does it because he like, how you're wired."

Balancing Autonomy and Connection

In a deep dive into human psychology, Chris and Tom discuss the balance between autonomy and connection, referencing theories that suggest competence can sometimes be perceived as coldness, complicating interpersonal relationships and societal interactions.

Tom Segura [100:25]: "Competent people are seen as colder regardless of how friendly they are."

---

Conclusion

Episode #901 of Modern Wisdom with Tom Segura offers a rich exploration of personal growth, societal changes, and the intricate dance between self-improvement and mental well-being. Through candid conversations and personal anecdotes, Tom and Chris provide listeners with thoughtful insights into making sense of the often perplexing modern world.

---

Notable Quotes:

• Tom Segura [00:06]: "You just, you know, it's an always happening thing... it's something that you are just thinking about, I think, all the time."

• Tom Segura [08:18]: "People lose muscle mass and they're losing at a much higher rate than they think they are."

• Tom Segura [03:14]: "The way to do it is to do things you think you're supposed to do, and then you figure out how to actually do whether or not you're supposed to do them."

• Tom Segura [16:31]: "I hate the fat acceptance. The moment that you had an easy route out of being overweight, body positivity went out of the window."

• Tom Segura [40:03]: "There's a real, real pervasive issue of loneliness..."

• Tom Segura [68:19]: "Doing something is the way to getting where you want to go."

---

For a more comprehensive understanding, listeners are encouraged to tune into the full episode.

Transcript

[A]

What is going on with the health and fitness stuff? It seems like I looked at some photos of you from 10 years ago and you're like half the size.

[B]

Yeah. Yeah. I don't know. I just, you know, you just get tired of everything, so you go, I'm just gonna. I'd like to be around and feel better. So you just, you know, it's. It's like, it's a, It's a. It's an always happening thing. It's. I don't feel like it's a thing that you just address once and you're done with it. It's. It's something that you are just thinking about, I think, all the time.

[A]

You know what I mean is this sort of. Gone are the days where you can fully live out the degenerate smoking, create a lifestyle.

[B]

I did that. I already did it. Yeah. I mean, it's. You know, when you're really in it, there's a, there's a kind of a freedom to being like, I'm a gross sack of. And you just don't care. And you just eat in bed and smoke and. I mean, I, I used to go to bed every, like, at 3 in the morning almost every day, and I would sleep until, I don't know, noon. Like, that was normal. I did that for years. And there's like a freedom in being like, yeah, I don't care. I don't give a. But I do think it has. Well, it literally does have an expiration date. I don't think it does. Like, you will die quicker if you do it that way. So I think you kind of just go to like, I actually don't feel. Physically feel so great after a while. I think in your head too, like, you psychologically are just kind of like, there's. There's another way of doing this. That. Because part of you kind of. I was somebody who, like, I would admire those comedians that were kind of a mess. So you, you know what I mean? Like, you go like, I need to be like this.

[A]

But it doesn't feel so contrived, right. Oh, this is their purest artistic expression. Look, they're on stage being themselves. They're a sack of shit being themselves.

[B]

Yeah. And. And I thought that was like, that's kind of like the way that's. When I started. I was like, I leaned into it more. I remember, like, one of my friends came to one of my early shows once and he was like, hey, man, that. That T shirt has a hole in it. And I was like, I know and he was like, you want to wear that on stage? Like, people are watching you. Don't you think they want to see, like, somebody that's presentable? And I was like, no, no. Like, this is. This is. This is the presentation. He's like, that. You have holes in your shirt. And I kind of was like, I was sure of it. I was like, yeah. I mean, that's the whole thing. I'm. I'm. I wasn't. I didn't feel like I was pulling on an act. I was like, yeah, this is what I would wear.

[A]

In a way, making effort is sort of detracting from you being you.

[B]

Yeah, yeah. But I do think that it's. Look, it's all part of, like, this is why I hate telling young comedians, like, how to. How to do it. Like, you know, when they go, give them advice, I'm like, I really don't like giving advice to young other than do it a lot. Like, that's the advice. But as far as, like, don't do this. I go, that's not how to do it. Like, the way to do it is to do things you think you're supposed to do, and then you figure out how to actually do whether or not.

[A]

You'Re supposed to do them.

[B]

Yeah. If I tell you don't do. Make sure you don't do this. That might keep you from encountering something that actually really spark something in you. You know what I mean?

[A]

Well, there's a difference between 2D lessons that you learn from someone telling you while you're reading it in a book, and 3D lessons that you learn from experiencing it firsthand.

[B]

A thousand percent.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

There's a guy called Bill Perkins who lives here in Austin. He came on the show. He wrote this book called Die with Zero, which is about how to sort of make the most of your wealth. And it's written for people who struggle to spend money, even though they might earn a little bit more than they need to, and they're, you know, sort of skin thrift, and they don't spend the money so much. I'm aware that you have no idea what I'm talking. And I had read the book, and then immediately after that from the podcast, he said, oh, why don't you come and wake surf with me? And I got to learn the lesson both from the book and then from the podcast, and then I got to experience it with him firsthand. And there's a driver outside, and there's a boat, and there's a blah, blah, and it's like, ha, yeah, now I know what he's talking about. And it's the same with this. You can tell someone, hey, you maybe consider yourself a professional, be presentable, consider your health, go to bed on time, et cetera. But if you arrive at that realization yourself, it's way deeper. As opposed to being like, yeah, I mean, Tom said that, but maybe he's full of shit. I don't know.

[B]

Yeah. And. And honestly, also to make it like to on the money thing of like, one thing that nobody ever wants to hear is like, money won't make you feel fulfilled. Like, no one wants to hear that. And then when you actually earn it and you, and then you go like, oh, yeah, this is what people were talking about. Like, the lesson is not gonna. Someone's saying, it's not gonna affect you the way that actually experiencing it will.

[A]

There's a category, a very unique category of lessons. I call them unteachable lessons.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And that's one of them.

[B]

Oh, for sure.

[A]

Another one is, you're not in love with that girl. She's just pretty and difficult to get.

[B]

Huh.

[A]

And it's. How many times do you need to learn that over and over again?

[B]

Yeah. Some people never learn it. Yeah.

[A]

You just continue to chase the slightly unavailable, pretty hot girl.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And you go, no, it, dude, it's. It's you. You're doing it again.

[B]

And then when you get there, you're going to be like, this is different this time. And. And then you can fix it. Oh yeah, this is not, it's not.

[A]

And money won't make you happy is of those.

[B]

It's just, it's just. I know it's to. And I understand it too, because so many people hear that and they go, yeah, give me that problem. Y. Give me that problem. Because you're thinking of like your current money problems. And what happens is, yes, that money will solve those problems, but it's not going to solve all of you. It's not going to deeper problem which.

[A]

Is inside of you.

[B]

Exactly.

[A]

You're.

[B]

You're not going to be like, now everything is satisfied. You're just not going to have those bills.

[A]

It's a difficult one with this. Right. Because what you want to do, especially if you've hard won a lesson, you want to try and help other people, you go, dude, do you know how much I went through to get to this place of fame or status or fucking the hot chick or whatever, realize the blood and the sweat and the tears and the sleepless nights and all of that? Stuff. Please, please let me save you from the same sort of misguided assumption about life. And yet it's received not even neutrally. It's like negatively received.

[B]

Oh, with. With tons of resistance. But I think that that's. It just goes to show you that is part of the human experience. Like, you can't teach some of these lessons. It's also why these cliche expressions exist. And you're like, that sounds like the reason that thing is said that way is because it's true and because millions of people have already experienced it. That's why we're saying that thing. But again, no one wants to hear it. And I actually don't. I. The. The older you get, the more you realize that it makes sense that you need to experience it in order to actually. You know what I mean? Like, in order to act and to. To have it resonate with you.

[A]

Well, the total addressable market for people who want more fame or more hot chicks or more money is basically everybody.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And the total addressable market for people who have got some amount of fame or money or hot chicks is basically zero. So you end up with this sort of weird privileged position. It's like. No, no, no.

[B]

It would be different. Yeah.

[A]

My. I can. Watch me dance through this minefield. I know that you kicked a couple of trip wires, but like, you're retarded. So like, watch me. Watch me do the pirouette through here. Like, and it'll. My internal voids will be fixed because I'm unique.

[B]

Yeah. And then you. The other thing you just realize also as you get older is that like, you're so not unique. You really aren't. Like, all the. That you. All your insecurities, all the problems you encounter, all the things that you think about that you think only you're thinking about, man, that's everybody. Like, it's. You really are in this thing with 8 billion other people. And all the things that you think are unique to you, they're really not.

[A]

The veils fall from your eyes on the weight loss thing. I saw a study that said 37% of Gen Z plan on skipping the gym and just using Ozempic instead. So 30% of Gen Z women are intending to use GLP1 drugs to reach their weight loss goals, compared to 20% of men. And on average, women are setting more ambitious weight loss targets, aiming to shed 23 pounds in 2025, and men are looking to lose 19.

[B]

Huh. Well, I mean, part of that is probably that those women have like a tougher time in like society with what they think they need to look like. I mean, you know, even though it affects both genders. But yeah, I think that's a temporary solution to this. I mean they're end, they're gonna end up the, the real problem if you read some studies about those GLP1s is that people lose muscle mass and they're losing at a much higher rate than they think they are. Sometimes they're losing 66 in a 10 pound loss. They're losing 66% of that is lean mass which is not what you want. Like the one thing you want for health and longevity and strength and all that is to retain lean mass. So doing it the slower way with like good nutri and good workout plan is what you want. I mean but also are you surprised? Like we're. Everybody wants a quicker solution to something. So yeah, I think we're gonna have a bunch of people with gaunt faces and, and, and lacking muscle. Over the next decade is going to be a new issue.

[A]

Tell you what's been interesting. So I've trained it on it maybe once a week, something like that.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And for the last three months, four months, Tuesday morning, I've seen Alex Jones in there doing bear crawls. He's running around outside, he's flipping tires over. He's doing this stuff.

[B]

Alex Jones, Yeah.

[A]

And then I saw the, I hadn't, I didn't know whether I hadn't seen him up close or something. And then I saw this famous like Ozempic Jones before and after thing and he's lost a ton of weight and there's a bit of me, a lot of people on the Internet were like ozempic's a hell of a drug. I go, I get that. But I've seen him working really, really hard in on a gym and there's kind of now if you lose weight through hard work, people are just going to say dude, Ozempic's a hell of a drug.

[B]

I know. Yeah.

[A]

I might as well use like some weird Russian roulette. Undeniable situation.

[B]

The same reason I think why there's all these guys, especially stars who though the one thing they won't talk about is that they're all juicing. You know, it's like this universal thing in Hollywood and everyone sees there are, if you see a photo or a video, everyone that the comments are all like it must be nice with this needle. And it's like, yeah, dude, if you just injected that, you're not going to look like him. Like that guy still busts his ass training to be just beyond jacked. Right. Like so. But it's like, in other words, people don't want to. They think that these things are just a quick solution. You still have to work at it. Whether you're going for the, the juice head that wants to be like, super jacked or the person who's just trying to lose weight. If you're just going to do the injection, nothing else, you're going to have less than appropriately. Yeah, exactly. Your results are not going to be impressive. But I mean, that's great that he's.

[A]

Did he look great? I mean, you're right on the 66% thing, but I think almost all of that can be mitigated if you just do resistance training. If you lose the weight and you train. But the problem is that people who don't have a health and fitness routine are taking an injection and suppressing their appetite and then losing weight and still not having a health and fitness routine.

[B]

I mean, the thing that I learned was that I, when I saw a nutritionist, can really, really change the way you view a lot of things when it comes to weight loss. And so my, my journey, I would say, is like, it's. It's always on go. It's up and down, right. Even like in the last couple years, like, it's, it's not steady state. And like mid summer, I knew I had this series coming up to shoot and I was like, okay. I go, I'm. At the time, I was about a hundred days out and I was like, you know, I can just show up as I am and, and it's. It's fine, it's going to be fine. No one's like, you know, Tom needs to be a model for this thing. But I was like, I'm going to hate myself for not at least putting in an effort. And so I had considered, like, just doing GLP ones.

[A]

Have you ever tried them?

[B]

I did try it once, yes.

[A]

How'd you feel?

[B]

I just didn't eat anything and then I got off of it. I didn't like that. So I considered it for this just for the shoot, though. And I met a nutritionist and he. And I told him what I was doing at that moment, which is in the mid summer. And I go, so I'm thinking about, you know, maybe just doing. He's like, what are you. What are you doing right now? And I told him what I was eating and how I was training. He's like, you're not eating enough. So if you get on GLP1s. You're definitely not going to eat enough. So the thing that I ended up doing was eating way more, but of the right foods. And I dialed up the training and I lost, you know, in this period going from the. Be from the. A hundred days out through the shoot, like around £20, but looked way better.

[A]

Probably a little bit of lean mass as well.

[B]

And. And it was. But. And also the. The thing that was like, surprising was that it was, it was more like I was eating so much more. I mean, every day I would have, you know, I would start the day with like four eggs, some fruit. A little while later, I usually train in that period. And then like a 50 gram protein shake. Lunch was 10 to 12 ounces of lean meat with greens. Another snack in between. And then my dinners were 16 ounces of lean protein with greens. Right. So it's like I was like, I wasn't eating like this two months ago. I was having like, you know, a chicken sandwich and be like, that was good protein. You know, it's like, it's so much like my protein intake must have been like, I don't know, I was probably having like 40 grams a day, not even thinking about it, versus every day then trying to get in 250. 200.

[A]

Yeah, exactly. But nobody sleepwalks into 200 grams of protein. Nobody does it. No, it's impossible.

[B]

It's deliberate.

[A]

The only way that you get there is by accident is if you've gone to some buffet.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And you just decided to like cave on the. Yeah, yeah, like Brazilian fucking whatever it's called Foggy Chow.

[B]

But it does work. Is like my point for like, people who are like, they're like, I need to eat. I'm hungry. It's like, dude, eat this and tell me that you're like, still hungry. Starving. Yeah. It's just not the case on the.

[A]

Ozempic point, I think. Was it the Golden Globes that happened recently? What was the award show that happened recently? Such an awesome take from someone that writes for the Free Press. And they said Ozempic and the body condition of most of the people at the Golden Globes shows that the fat acceptance movement was all a scam. Ah, that's I fucking so fucking true.

[B]

I hate the fat acceptance.

[A]

The moment that you had an easy route out of being overweight, body positivity went out of the window.

[B]

That's so true. Because they're such hypocrites. They're such pieces of shit. And this whole thing has always enraged me more than anything. I Think. I think because of the fact that I've struggled with it and I had to deal with the fact that I hated the way I felt or looked or, you know, you hate that your genetics are the way they are. Whatever it is. But I also. I also think part of it's just being a guy and that, like, guys talk to each other differently. Like, you know, I played sports and you just get used to someone being like, okay, fat ass. And you're just like, fuck you. You know, that's just like the way dudes talk to each other. And this whole idea that, like, one of my friends is going to be like, I actually think you look really good at any weight. It's like, off. Like, that's not true. And that's what people started to do. Like, I remember this one post where it was like, Adele, and they showed her, like, at her heaviest and. And then she'd lost a bunch of weight. I don't know how she lost the weight, but she lost a bunch of weight.

[A]

I think she looked pretty ozempic.

[B]

I think it was too. And she looked great. And it was just filled. Everything was just filled with. I think she looks great in both. And it's like, no, don't. Why are you saying that? That's not true. Like, what? She looks great now. She put in the work and she obviously ate a certain way and trained and she looked. And now she looks great. Like, you can say that like, yeah, yeah, she wasn't ugly before. But no, both look. Both are wonderful. It's like, this is beauty at any size. This is just nonsense.

[A]

It's weird with what people are doing, especially with the fat acceptance body positivity thing. Like, you don't want to lambast or castigate or be mean to people that are overweight and that are trying.

[B]

No.

[A]

But also removing any sort of judgment on what is better or worse for you, just. That's bad for them. But, yeah, there's this idea from Isaiah Berlin called the inner citadel. And it's basically, if you can't get what you want, you have to teach yourself to want what you can get, so you sort of retreat into this. So I struggle to make monogamous relationships work. Therefore, monogamy is a flawed system and everyone should be polyamorous. Right? I struggle to lose weight naturally. Therefore, weight has no bearing on health, and the entire world needs to accept me at any size, and I need to be beautiful no matter what. I struggle to hold down a job. Therefore, I'm turning to a life of crime and Actually, this is like just as acceptable as a normal.

[B]

It's, it's all, it's, it's completely disingenuous and it's all about a lack of accountability. And I think that's the thing about, like when you talk about body positivity. It's like, yeah, you don't need to rip people apart who are not, you know, that are overweight or whatever. It's like, I don't know, I don't think that's very productive for them. It's just going to.

[A]

Very few people are passive, aggressed or patronized into behavior.

[B]

Yeah, for sure. But to say like, this is great and you know, and then now people are also doing the same mental gymnastics with the, the term healthy. Like what is healthy? It's like, you know what the healthy means? Stupid. Like, it's not, I'm not making up this word. And they're like, well, who is to say what is healthy? Well, we actually have a pretty good idea of what is healthy. So if your cholesterol is 600, you're not healthy. Like, why are we pretending? And, but people want you to go, yeah, but like, I can't believe a, a doctor is going to tell me if I'm healthy. You're like, that's the job. Stupid. Like, that's what he's supposed to do. They're, they're telling you that this is not good. And we all know that if you're carrying that much weight, you're talking about like 3:50, 400. And then the idea that like, that's okay, you know, it's not.

[A]

Before we continue, Tom just confirmed what we all knew steroids in Hollywood were everywhere. But the reality is there aren't any cheat codes for losing weight and keeping muscle unless you want to end up on some Olympic doping list. However, there are science backed supplements like Tongcat Ali to support testosterone strength and recovery. And that is why I partnered with Momentous because they make the only NSF certified Tongkat Ali on the planet. That means it's so rigorously tested that even Olympic athletes can use it. That is why I'm such a huge fan. Because they make the most carefully tested, highest quality supplements on earth. This is a huge part of my brain, body and sleep stack which makes a huge difference to my cognition, my strength and my recovery. The evidence behind this is really impressive. It is completely natural, but has a profound impact on your testosterone, as I learned from Dr. Andrew Huberman. And if you're still unsure, amatos offers a 30 day money back guarantee so you can buy it and try it in 29 days. If you don't love it, they'll give you money back and they ship international right now. Get 20% off everything plus that 30 day money back guarantee by going to the link in the description below or heading to livemomentous.com Modern wisdom using the code Modern Wisdom to check out that's L I V E M O M E S t o u s.com ModernMisdom at checkout do you see that rapper who was disallowed from getting into a Lyft car and she's now suing Lyft. Yeah.

[B]

Also let's rapper is like let's. I know that she claims to be. Let's not give her too much credit. I don't, I don't think she's signed to a label but yeah, I did.

[A]

Person who raps. Yeah, I identify as a person who raps.

[B]

A person who raps who is. I believe the thing said she was 3:92, which is like not a lot of scales giving you that. I don't know if they went over to the truck stop and figured it out, but she is enormous. And. And a driver was like, yeah, don't get in here.

[A]

I think he was worried about his tires.

[B]

Yeah, he's probably thinking about suspension, rear axle and was like, no. And now they're like. It was just shooting for discrimination. It's like maybe the guy has a point that he has a older car.

[A]

Could you imagine? I don't know whether this is right, but imagine that she'd got in the car and there'd been some sort of an accident due to that. I don't know. I mean it's £400. Like surely you could have like two or three other people in the car. That seems. Unless it's because it's all in one space. I don't know. Anyway, I think it's an interesting one. But also I guess on the flip side of that, this. I realized a while ago that people who were fat had a problem with Ozempic because it was sort of denying their right to exist. And it was this. Yeah, but then there was a bunch of people that were in shape that had a problem with it too because it gave people who didn't need to use as much hard work and willpower and easier route to being in shape. I'm aware that losing fat isn't being in shape because there's muscle tone and all the rest of the stuff, but still, like you would look at somebody that is half the size. That's 150, as opposed to 300. And you go, yeah, they're more in shape, at least with clothes on. Yeah, yeah. It's. Everybody is threatened in one form or another by shortcuts. Everybody is.

[B]

Yeah, yeah.

[A]

Because the reason that you look at someone who's in shape and you go, wow, that's. I really. That. That's good. There's. I feel some sort of sense of, like, warmth and trustworthiness. It's because it's a reliable signal of what they've done to have to get there.

[B]

Exactly.

[A]

Whereas now you just think, hey, I. Are you hardworking and consistent or have you got a prescription for Ozempic?

[B]

Yeah, exactly. Yeah. That is what. That is a thing that people do. And it's like, especially you see somebody who has never done anything before, and then they drop weight and then they go, yeah, you do the. You do. You. You kind of look at them like, oh, you did the cheat code. And then you. You kind of dismiss them as a person. You just go like, oh, you're a. You're a shortcut person. Which I understand. I mean, that's.

[A]

Yeah. And now it's an unfalsifiable. And it's losing weight either naturally or with assistance. Is the getting jacked naturally or with assistance for dudes. It's just a totally unprovable hypothesis.

[B]

The crazy thing about this getting jacked thing, though, is people don't know how. Even the people that are in Hollywood that they go, well, that person's not on it. They're on it too. I know so many people who are jack geared out of their minds, and even ones who you go, well, this person had had a naturally lean aesthetic before, and so it's. It's believable that, like, no, they're on. They're on it too. They're all on it. They just never want to talk about it. It's almost like the. The most taboo thing you can bring up for some of these guys, even.

[A]

Though it's like so obvious and out in the open.

[B]

Especially, like for people that, like, are around fitness and in the gym, like, you just know. Like, there's just tells. You just know. But they don't want to be seen. They don't want the perception to be that they took a shortcut.

[A]

I wonder if that'll change. People coming out online, fitness influences and stuff like that.

[B]

It would be great. I mean, for some reason, the last place where they're not doing it is Hollywood is, which is like, it's all anyways, right?

[A]

It's all a fugazi. It's all. People are wearing makeup, they've got special lighting.

[B]

It's all. But none of them want to talk about it. And it's pervasive. It's. It's so incredible. How many are doing it?

[A]

Did you see that? You can reset your Instagram algorithm now that just released this this week, so you can completely wipe your Instagram algorithm and start basically afresh.

[B]

Wow. So probably be healthy for me.

[A]

Well, yeah. You have a death and cause, right? That's it.

[B]

I mean, I got, like, I have the workplace accidents, barbecue recipes, Italian women's feet, watches. Yeah, I probably gotta. I gotta.

[A]

You really need this. This was made for you.

[B]

Wow.

[A]

But, yeah, I wonder if it'll purge all of the fitness influences that everybody followed when they first started Instagram in 2011.

[B]

Because you kind of get. There's this trick that happens to your mind, too, when you open your algorithm. You just go, well, this is what it is.

[A]

This is the world.

[B]

This is.

[A]

Everybody's looking at it.

[B]

Everybody is seeing these. Yeah. And you're like, this is how we're all spending our time.

[A]

Yeah, I. I think that'd be fascinating. Reset your Instagram algorithm.

[B]

Like an actual button?

[A]

Yeah, it just. It's in the app.

[B]

They've Start over.

[A]

I think it said, want to start afresh? Question mark is the page that you go to. You have to accept some terms and conditions. It feels a little bit like euthanizing someone. You're like, okay, are you sure that you're prepared to get rid of, you know, a decade of you building up this very carefully curated algorithm? And I wonder if there's a little bit that lingers there. And they go, we'll let him try. But something tells us, like, we might just have to throw the old shit in a little bit until he gets used to the new stuff. But that would be. I mean, that'd be fascinating to see what I actually want now as opposed to what I've fucking pounded.

[B]

I've ruined so many other people's algorithms. You know that?

[A]

By browsing on their phone?

[B]

No, just I send them videos and then they go, dude, now they're like, now I get sent, like, cyclists falling off a cliff every day. And I'm like, oh, yeah. They're like, you fucked everything up for me. And nothing makes me happier than, like, knowing that one of my friends is.

[A]

Getting cursed with the same algorithm.

[B]

Yeah. I'm like, good, Ryan.

[A]

Ryan Long was doing some research for a bit and he was looking at quadruple amputees.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And he's now just got his entire algorithm.

[B]

It. I know you dive down these rabbit holes on there and then you're like.

[A]

Oh, that's the shit. You like, oh, we'll, we'll give you more.

[B]

Give you more.

[A]

I was doing some research, but now kind of I do. Yeah.

[B]

Now it's like, yeah, like my buddy Bert looks at like just like poverty stricken people preparing meals. So it's just like somebody like really lower income being like, this is all I have and they're making lunch. And then like he's like, yeah, I'm just fascinated by this. I'm like, what the fuck? And he's just like. And if you look at his phone, it's just like people below the poverty line making meals.

[A]

It's a feedback loop. Yeah, there's a. I had a guy on that wrote the book on artificial intelligence, the textbook that was used worldwide in like a hundred languages, something like that. And Stuart Russell, he said there's this really interesting thing. There's two ways that algorithms can be better at predicting what it is that you're going to click on. One is that they continue to feed you clickable content, but the other one, it's bi directional. The other one is to nudge your preferences so that you become easier to predict. I was like, huh, that makes so much sense because all that it's looking to do is maximize clicks.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

But there's two people in this. There's both the content that's being served and there's the preferences of the person that's clicking. So over time these algorithms nudge people's preferences. And how, how easier is it to predict what somebody will or will not click on than by pushing them out to the fringe of any viewpoint. If you are, I know exactly what you're going to like and what you're going to hate because you're out on the right or you're out on the left or you're at the top or the bottom or whatever. Super easy. If you're in the middle and you're like, I'm going to fall this way. I'm not so bothered about that. Really, really hard. So it's like, huh, I haven't ever heard anybody talk about the other direction of how algorithms work. By nudging your preferences to be more predictable, not by getting better. It's serving you stuff that it knows you're going to click on.

[B]

Yeah, that's really fascinating. It's scary too, the way It. I've actually utilized the thing a lot on Instagram. The not interested. Because like, sometimes you're like, what the fuck is all. Why is this here? And you start to like hit that because hopefully just to get like something new.

[A]

Yeah, there's a. I remember this was on Facebook ages ago. But the power of saying don't show me this page again or show me fewer posts like this, 100 to 1, I think compared with a like. So it's so rare. Right? It's so much more effortful for you to say, like, not interested in this thing. So, yeah, I mean, that's the trait. Or you can just completely, you know, 500 days of summer it and. And decide to get back.

[B]

Have you done that? Have you done a totally like.

[A]

No, I only found out about it yesterday, so I'd consider. I think I probably will unplug. Oh yeah, well, no, just reset. I don't know what reset. I'd spent a week in Jamaica where I didn't have my phone. Does that count?

[B]

No, that. I mean, but doesn't. Wasn't that though like a type of experience for you? The fact that you, like. I have friends that like, are really at like, like have done the thing where they. They give the. The account to somebody else to post. They're like, this is just rotting my brain, spending way too much time. And a couple of them that I can think of told me that it made them so much happier. So in other words, they just go, here are the. Here's the password. I'll tell you when to post things. I don't want to have anything to do with it anymore.

[A]

I think a lot of people like that. But one of the things I realized when I was in Jamaica was if you don't have any. So this was the week leading up to TikTok Ban, all of that stuff. If you have to self generate things to talk about, it's really interesting because you get to places that are a little bit deeper, that are a little bit more interesting. But on the flip side, like, you realize how reliant you are on yo. Do you see that blah, blah, blah, blah that happened this morning? Oh, have you noticed that Trump said this thing you go, okay. So not only is it sort of capturing my time and my attention, it's even like getting inside of me and staring out through my own eyes and making noises come out of my mouth.

[B]

Yeah, because you're part of it is that you feel like you're in the game. Right? Like contributing. Yeah. And. And also, like, if you're completely unplugged. Then you're one of those people that's just like, huh, what happened? A healthcare guy got shot. Like you.

[A]

You don't want to be that guy.

[B]

You don't want to be the guy that doesn't know anything. So it's. There is like this kind of balance of like, do you want to be in the game or you don't want to be obsessed also with like. Because I, I do this thing where I I. When. Especially when I'm alone. Right. Where you do. You do this cycle. I call it like, like where I go, like YouTube, Instagram, emails, tick tock. You like, whatever. Like you just. Yeah, what's that? And then you just, you're just like, wow. Like two. Like, I. The hard thing for me is when you get back from a show, like, we're on, I'm on the road. That's a show. You're in your room and you're like, all right, it's time to like, I should go to bed soonish. I'm just gonna look for a side. Yeah. And that's like, you get into that, that loop. It's like, you have to have the discipline to just be like, the advantage.

[A]

Of being around people and it's the disadvantage if you spend a lot of time on your own because you, like, assuage your feelings of loneliness.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

By having a friend.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Well, I'm not going to feel alone. I don't need to feel bored. I don't need to have the. Whatever you. Okay. Well, if the person's here, it's like fun. Can fuck off. And I think about it, having a great conversation with a friend. I'm not thinking about it.

[B]

That's right.

[A]

The second that they leave, like bodygun.

[B]

Yeah. And it's like the sec. The millisecond.

[A]

Correct.

[B]

Yeah. I mean, sometimes you're just like, like, I mean, when some. It's like, they're like, I'm going to go to the bathroom. You're like, okay. It's like, it's so, it's so immediate.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

It is a drug.

[A]

I got, I got followed. It was a couple of weeks ago. Now there's a period for about two weeks where tons and tons of Latino and Spanish accounts were following. I was like, that's a fucking red flag. I'm like, something's happened in Spanish somewhere and I can't read it, I can't decipher it. I don't know what has caught, but something upstream.

[B]

Was it. AI translated all your shit.

[A]

No, no, it was just like I, I, maybe someone or something had got a hold of something that I'd said. I'm like, this could be positive. This could be the beginning of me starting some sort of war with like the country of Mexico. I don't know. But I just, I had no idea what was going on. Like, like being followed by. It was the same. Whitney Cummings told me that after she did that CNN thing, tons of comedians texted her saying that was so funny. And she's like, immediate red flag. If lots of comedians text you and say that the thing you just did on TV was funny.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Huge warning sign. Massive fucking warning sign.

[B]

Yeah, yeah.

[A]

Like that was the wait.

[B]

Did you figure out what. No, no.

[A]

Still no. I'm just like, this is, it's an open loop. I'm flying in the dark here. I have no idea.

[B]

Comedians complimenting you definitely makes you go like, I fucked up. Yeah, I did something wrong.

[A]

I went to this daytime house music party in Austin on Saturday. It's called Mushroom Cowboy.

[B]

So it's a microdose kind of event.

[A]

I don't know, I think they're kind of hinting at that. But it's in a coffee. Well it was outside of a coffee shop off Congress.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So I turn up at half 10, it started at 10 and the queue is 250 yards long for coffee.

[B]

What.

[A]

And there must have been 1500 people there. One guy brought a baguette, was raving with his baguette. There's dogs, you know, pretty, pretty sober looking from the outside. Maybe some people smoking weed. But I think this is maybe the beginning of us seeing the end of like hardcore drink culture. If you've looked at how few of Gen Z now drink.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

It's I think maybe 20%.

[B]

The interesting thing is like the, the theories on why because there's obviously there, they have to be theories. Right. On, on. We don't actually know exactly. Yeah. One of them is that people, the youth views drinking as like what their parents did. Right.

[A]

So that's like, that's naturally uncool.

[B]

Yeah. My lame ass dad drinks. Like, I don't, I'm not interested. And so that's one thing. The other part of it is that this group of people that are the youth right now are so much more informed on what the negative aspects of drinking and what it can do to you that they're just like, why would I, you know, why would I object? Yeah. To something like that. And that they've found this whole other, you know, when you want to Take the edge off. There's a lot more options, and it's also a lot more accepted today than it was 20 years ago. Like, the idea that you could microdose or do edibles or smoke or, you know, I mean, and then there's like all the, you know, ketamine and everything is like, I have a. I have different things that I do when I want to have a recreational good time. And. Yeah, but it's. It's undeniable that it's. It's definitely way down.

[A]

There's more daily users in the US of weed now than there are of alcohol.

[B]

Is that for real?

[A]

Overtaken or at least that was the. The most recent study that I saw in the US There are more daily or near daily marijuana users than daily or near daily alcohol users.

[B]

And that. And that. That thought was just completely like, if you're a teen right now, you don't understand how preposterous that sounds coming from, like, if you were growing up in the 80s and 90s, like, you were just like, that is that those were like the fringe people almost. You know, I mean, like, yes, it was popular, but it was not like a respectable person really wasn't doing that. You know, it was like the arts. It was like hippies and. And yeah, it was. I mean, people thought of it as like, the absolute worst thing that could happen. I mean, people from, like, my dad's generation likened marijuana to heroin. They didn't even see, like, really a difference. They're just like, you're a junkie. It's like. But for smoking a joint. And like, yeah, that's the way they viewed it. So the fact that it's that accepted now, it's. It's mind blowing to me.

[A]

I wonder if some of it is that drinking in the house on your own feels pretty bad.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Smoking in the house on your own, you're like, I'm just watching. I'm playing Call of Duty. Yeah, leave me alone. But if you're. If you're six beers deep playing Call of Duty.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

It's a different story.

[B]

Yeah. And you're not playing well at that.

[A]

You're just like, I don't know how well people are playing on weed either, but yeah.

[B]

Yeah, you're probably more likely to yell out pejorative slurs. Yeah, I think that, I mean, look, like smoke. Smoking is still not good for you. So, like, you're probably.

[A]

But.

[B]

But we've discovered that, you know, there's other ways to ingest and, like, consume, and that's. That's what I think is part of, like this youth culture thing about staying away from drinking is they're like whatever I do droplets in this. Or I, you know, I. I have my gummy or whatever, however they want to consume, but they're just. They're definitely not drinking, man. They're not drinking like they. Like everybody else before them did.

[A]

I used to run nightclubs for ages and one of the big downturns we've seen has been in nightlife industry. I think the UK's losing a nightclub a week. There's not like an unlimited number of nightclubs. It's like one is shutting down pretty much every single week. And I asked a friend who's still in the industry why he thought that was the case and he said, smartphones, man. Back in the day, you could be as loose as you wanted. You could sort of have that Larry Louty drinking spirit. At least in Breadwinner, they don't want to be recorded. Of course, like, if you mess up and like shit yourself in the middle of a nightclub in 2002, it's a story that you can deny the next day. And then after six months, most people have probably forgotten. Whereas if that happens in 2025, that's now concretized on the Internet for everybody to know and bring back up and make memes out of for the rest of time.

[B]

I mean, it's. But imagine like how the pro athletes of the 80s and 90s and early 2000s would just go out and just, Just destroy. Just destroy a woman's hopes, dreams. And then now they're all. Yeah. They're like, everyone's on edge. Yeah. Everyone's got a phone out. It's just. Yeah, it's. It's a totally different. By the way, do you ever think about why? Because I still remember that, like, why was house music and dancing in general so much bigger in Europe than here? People here were never like, let's go dance.

[A]

I'm not sure. I mean, I guess why does any scene of any kind appear anywhere? We certainly have in the uk, like a good house music culture.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

A lot of people didn't have much else to do other than go out and party and drink.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

If the weather's bad, then, you know, we're not going to go out to the ranch, we're not going to go and see the sunset, we're not going to go to the beach because all of it's fucking freezing cold all the time. So you kind of just zero in on the one thing that's Reliable. Which is beer.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Pubs or clubs.

[B]

Yeah, yeah. No, I just remember, like, so many times, like, being in the States and having, like, European friends are like, why don't you guys. You guys don't like to go dance? I was like, no, no one's. We're not going dancing, bro. Like, like, no. And. And then I would remember, like, studying abroad, being like, oh, yeah, we would. That's. That was like, a normal thing. Just go to a place that was just like, packed and everybody just. Loud music, dancing. It just was one of those things where I was like, it just didn't translate over here. I mean, there's still clubs, obviously, but it just wasn't the same type of, oh, I just want to go listen to this and literally dance. Like, that's what people. I felt like were doing a lot more in Europe than here.

[A]

Yeah. There's a. Another study that just came out recently about rates of sexlessness. So this has sort of been talked about for ages, and there was this big study in 2018 that looked really scary, and then it kind of got reversed in the GSS data. Then there's this new one. Rates of sexlessness are climbing among adults aged 22 to 34. Stats plucked from the newly unsheathed National Survey of family growth showed 10% of young males and 7% of their female counterparts saying they're still virgins. That's 22 to 34.

[B]

Damn.

[A]

In some. For all young adults, adult males, sexlessness has roughly doubled in all measures over the last 10 years. For young females, it's risen by roughly 50%. So 24% of men 22 to 24 had not had sex in 2022, up from 9% in 2013. And for females, the number was 13%, up from 8%. When asked if they'd had sex in the last three months, 35% of men said no, jumping from 20%. And women didn't fare much better with 31%, up from 21. So basically, not going out, not partying, not having sex at, like, not social. Highest rates. Yeah, it seems so.

[B]

Yeah. So there's a. There's a real, real pervasive issue of loneliness is a real thing that most people don't think about. If they're not lonely, if they. If they have company, if they have friends, if they have relationships. You don't realize how many people are literally lonely people, like, they're alone. They don't have that companionship, and you take it for granted. I think if you're. If it's not something that you have to deal with, you know, and then you. I've. Have you ever met somebody who you realize is lonely in this world and it. It affects you? I. It affected me. Like, where you just go, like, oh, this person just doesn't have relationships. Like, they're. And there's. You know, there could be so many reasons why. But what I'm saying is that it's so many more people than you think about when you're not in that position. It's so many more people. So many people are lonely. I'm not surprised by it. The other thing about, like, the sexual statistics that I was first, like, surprised when I heard one of my friends has daughters that are college age and was saying that, you know, he was like, yeah, like, she. All through her adolescence into high school, everything just hung out with girls. And she was like, she doesn't. She's never had the experience of like. Like, oh, guys are aggressive. She was like, guys don't talk to us. Like, that's. That's the world that she grew up in. Is like, she was going to college and was like, you know, she's like, well, hope I don't get raped. But that's all. That's what she thinks of, like, men is that, like, they're either predators, but she just didn't.

[A]

Predators rent cells. Those are the two choices.

[B]

She was like, yeah, but, like, she just didn't have the experience of, like, boys trying to, like, hit on her or just even engage. She was just like, with girls. And then she was like, yeah, guys. And I. I think there's, like, a lot you can deduce from that, but some of it, too. Is that, like, the. Is, like, about the guys? Not necessarily, but, like, about how those guys have been growing up in the last, you know, decade plus in a different environment than, like, we grew up in or that I grew up in. Right. Which was like, they came up in this.

[A]

Sure.

[B]

There's been, like, a feminine. There's a feminism cycle that's always happening, but they also grew up in, like, me too. And. And all this. These things that become report. And, like, some of those boys become fearful of interacting with them. I'm like, well, I don't want to be seen as like, this. And they just. What happens is they just wait, I'll. That'll happen later. Like, my interactions. And they're 15, 16, 17 now they're in college, and they've still yet to interact.

[A]

So no experience with no experience.

[B]

So then it makes sense to. When you hear a statistic like, well, they're 22 or 24 and they're a virgins. Like, they're still probably like, oh, that, that's going to happen later because me too happened.

[A]

As they were about to start speaking to girls.

[B]

I. It's. To me, it seems like a pretty logical way to tie things in. Right. Like, and these were like the dominant stories. Remember, you couldn't get away from these stories. And so I don't know, to like build. I mean, you want, you want to raise somebody. I have boys. You want to raise them in a healthy environment and like, you know, teach them how to interact with the opposite sex. But like, I think if you're, if you don't have encouragement to like, yeah, try and talk and just be normal. And you're just like, you. You know, you guys are the predators. Like, it can be probably scary for some of those young kids.

[A]

The huge problem with telling men don't be pushy.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Is that the guys who need to hear it the most aren't going to take.

[B]

They're never gonna.

[A]

And the guys who really should be encouraged more are going to take it to heart.

[B]

Yeah, that's true. It's like gun laws.

[A]

How so?

[B]

Well, I mean, like, you can have the strictest gun laws, but the people who really, like who want guns are just gonna get them anyway.

[A]

If you're sufficiently motivated, you'll find a way.

[B]

Yeah, dude, you're just. I mean, gun laws are like, you know, there it. They exist on paper, but like, if you want a gun and you're like, I'm getting one and I'm going to shoot someone, like, that's. You're not gonna be like, oh, that's against the law. Like, you're just gonna, you're just gonna do what you want to do. You know what I mean? Like, so it's, it's. Those are the people that, that they write the laws for. They write them for those guys.

[A]

We'll get back to Tom. To Tom in one minute. But first I need to tell you about Nomatic. Traveling should be about the journey, not see that one hand. The chaos packing, which is why I partnered with Nomatic. Their Travel pack. This 14 liter. Is this the 14. This is the 14 liter travel pack. This is the biggest life changer from a luggage perspective that I've ever had. It's one I use every single day and it makes traveling genuinely so much more enjoyable. They've got compartments for everything. Your laptop, your shoes, your sunglasses. The bag is so clean, you half expect it to Start flirting with a flight attendant. And if you're still on the fence, their products will last you literally a lifetime. Their lifetime guarantees it's the final backpack you ever need to buy. Plus, you can return or exchange any product for 30 days for any reason. So buy your new bag, try it for a month. If you don't like it, they just give you your money back and they ship internationally and get the 20 discount. See everything that I use and recommend, including this game changing backpack by going to the link in the description below. Heading to nomatic.com modernwisdom that's nomatic.com.

[B]

Have.

[A]

You learned much about, like, yourself or your nature, seeing it reflected back to you and your boys?

[B]

A little bit, yeah. I mean, my youngest is like my twin. And it's just, it's just he's, he's very sensitive and he also like flies off the car. He's like Joe Pesci though. He's just like. And you're like, God damn. He's six years old and he's just, he, he has the craziest mouth on him. But like every time he does something, like, he explodes with like a reaction to something, you know, my wife just goes.

[A]

She goes, that's your genetics.

[B]

She's like, that's you. I'm like, you know, I mean, I'm talking about like, if he bumps a table, you know, he's like, what the. Why is this thing here? I'm like. And then she's like, you do that. I'm like, okay. But he's also like a very, like, he's really sweet and he's really sensitive, very tender kid. And she's like, that's who you are. Like, at your core, you know, you're this sweet guy and you have this exterior, like this little maniac. But she's like, you guys are. Yeah, so sometimes you're like. And the other thing that kids do is like, you don't realize because you, you interact so much with adults, you know, as an adult, and then they'll, they'll say things to you. Like, I've, I've flown off the handle. I've been like, what the are you guys doing? Like, my kids will be like, hey, we are kids. You don't talk to a kid like that.

[A]

And I'll be like, okay, sorry, reverse discipline.

[B]

Yeah, like, seriously? And they're like, why would you yell like that? I'm like, because you're painting the house. You're putting paint on the house. Like, stop painting the walls of the house. And they're like, okay, just say it. I'm like, okay, I shouldn't have to tell you don't paint the house. You're not.

[A]

We shouldn't have to tell you not to fly off the handle and that.

[B]

Yeah. We shouldn't tell you not to yell. You don't have to yell like that. I'm like, okay, can you please stop painting the house? So that. Because I have to call a real painter now to fix what you just did. And they're like, okay, see how that worked? I'm like, yeah, great. But, yeah, it totally resets you. You're like, what am I on my fucking mind here? Like, yeah, but it does work.

[A]

Yeah, dude.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

It's so funny, this. I got it. We got to talk about this headline. The Department of Governmental Efficiency in this Office of management finding $50 million was earmarked to spend on condoms in Gaza. Do you see this?

[B]

No. In condoms.

[A]

Department of Governmental Efficiency in the Office of Management and Budget found that the Biden administration was about to send $50 million to fund condoms for Gaza. This was yesterday. This is the biggest thing on Twitter at the moment.

[B]

And when. Like, do we know when they were. They were about to do this. So they were just like, stop having babies.

[A]

I don't know why. So there's two main theories for why it might have been. Okay, first one's money laundering. 50 million. Okay, a lot of money laundering. Second one is a lot of Palestinians had been attaching IEDs to condoms that were filled with, like, refrigerant gas.

[B]

What?

[A]

IDs.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

And then releasing incendiary devices in Israeli territory. So it's like the most. It's. They can float these things over and then drop IEDs. Drop incendiary devices. So those are the two main theories. The one that it's money laundering, and the second one that it's improvised explosive condoms.

[B]

Wait, but money laundering, Benefiting who, though?

[A]

I don't know.

[B]

Yeah, well, it's not. I actually think that's not enough money to be, like, a strong money laundering.

[A]

50 miles.

[B]

50 million is not that much money.

[A]

When you talk about ocean.

[B]

Well, when you talk about the grand scale of, like, government munding fundings and. And, you know, criminal. Like, 50 million is not like, the amount where you go.

[A]

Like, it's not like maybe they thought they could get it under the radar. I don't know. I don't know how useful that is.

[B]

But, I mean, it seems like I didn't know about the ied. That. That part is if they're like, look, we can't send you bombs, but we'll send you some condoms. And you guys know, you do your.

[A]

Little, some helium in them, you do your little wizardry that you fall into the bottom.

[B]

It's so fascinating that people can make anything useful for what. Because you always hear these like prison stories where they're like, get the out of here. Yeah, well that's how they're just like, yeah, these guys, they made their shoelace and a toothbrush into a knife and you're like, what the are you talking about? And, and then you know, they can't give them anything because everything becomes a weapon. Right. And so that, I mean, I would have never guessed that. I thought what you were going to go with was they were just saying like, look, you're going to keep having sex but stop making babies because you just, you know, like that that would be the explanation for it.

[A]

Restriction and stuff like that.

[B]

Yeah. I mean, or just like you can't, you don't want to have babies in this environment.

[A]

That's an altruistic way to look at it.

[B]

It's like a logical way to go.

[A]

Like no, no, no, no, no, no. Floating IEDs.

[B]

Floating IEDs. Touched by also because it's like it, it's dark in that they, if, if the explanation is like, look, on paper we can't send you weapons, but you, you guys just have this.

[A]

You know what to do, you know what to do. You know what to do with the condoms.

[B]

And that's our way of saying we support you too. Yeah, we support both of you. Just you with condoms and you with missiles.

[A]

Yeah, imagine that. That's the fight. Condoms versus missiles.

[B]

I mean it kind of is.

[A]

One person's throwing rocks, the other one's throwing an entire technological armory.

[B]

It's wiped out, man.

[A]

Yeah, there was a. It's like the two stories that I saw yesterday. The first one was about maybe these condoms are being used for IEDs. And the second one was the International Doomsday Clock Federation saying it's at 89 seconds to midnight, it's like the closest that it's ever been. And this is how close humanity is to destruction or self destruction or something like that. I'm like, if it's like a day clock or something or 12 hour clock and you're 89 seconds. Maybe it was at 90 or 91 or something before. Like we're so close now, we should just move it back to like 6pm and then increase the increments between. It's like 89, like what does that mean?

[B]

What does that mean?

[A]

I don't know. It's basically that this decision reflects concerns over nuclear risk, climate change, and disruptive technologies, like AI indicating a dire warning about humanity's proximity to existential threats. It's the closest point it's ever been to symbolic global catastrophe. It's like, what does 89 seconds mean? What does that ever mean?

[B]

I have no idea. I'm completely lost. I microdosed this morning, so I don't know.

[A]

Let's fucking go.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

Let's fucking go.

[B]

89 seconds.

[A]

I don't know. I don't know what it means, but. But I. It seems to me like this period that we're in now has got definitely a lot more unpredictability, largely because of Trump. It's like, what's actually going to happen?

[B]

Do you think that. You know how people are always doing this thing of. They're like, hey, the end of the world has to be near at this point, like, everything. Do you think there's ever been a time where people weren't saying that? No, I think it's always been a thing. Right. But people always are like. And I mean, yeah, Trump is like. I mean, he's such a polar, like, polarizing figure. I've never seen somebody also, in my opinion, be so transparently themselves and have people react to that person in such extreme different ways. Like, he so clearly is who he is. There is no. He doesn't put up this disguise. And then you have people who see it through the lens of, like, this is like, somebody who's here to save us, and you're like, what?

[A]

And then. Or destroy us.

[B]

Yeah. And so, like, every. People see him as, like, this great person who has best intentions for citizens and country, and then other people who are like, this is a con man. You know, But, I mean, it's just so insane to me that there's both views.

[A]

The same guy is the same guy doing the same things.

[B]

Yeah. And it's pretty. I thought it was so clear who he is. Like, he just reads so clearly.

[A]

It's like an. You know, the Rorschach test. Yeah, it's like an ideological Rorschach test.

[B]

It kind of is.

[A]

You, hey, look at the tell. Is it bunny rabbit, Butterfly, sunrise? Like, what is it?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And some people see one and see the complete opposite.

[B]

That's a. It's a fascinating thing, though, right, when you think about it that way, about this person, that he can exist and be who he is, say the things he says, has his resume has, like, a clear. A clear list of actions. And, you know, it's there. There's no mystery to who this person is. And people still choose to view it through we. Or that's not even shoes. It's just the way it is. Like, human beings view this through completely different lenses. It's kind of fascinating.

[A]

Yeah. Have you ever met him?

[B]

No. I sat, like, six feet from him.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

And I didn't meet him, though.

[A]

Didn't get to shake his hand. I saw. I saw this video of him shaking Gavin Newsom's hand. And there's a huge debate online about who out Alpha'd who and. Because Trump does the. That thing. But then Newsom, like, knows it's coming. They must have prepped. They must have, like, practiced the thing.

[B]

Like, this is gonna be a big deal.

[A]

And as he pulls him in, Newsom puts his hand on his shoulder like that. So, you know, he's like, sort of pushing and pulling, like, shoulder. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So it's like, you know how you. You sort of tap someone on the.

[B]

But he's gone on the front.

[A]

So as he gets pulled in, he's able to leverage. It's so interesting. But I don't know, like, the. There's a bit of me. I mean, how long's I been in office? Like, fucking two weeks or some shit.

[B]

Yeah. It's very, very quick.

[A]

Every. Every morning I wake up to npr because I like to drop my testosterone first thing in the morning.

[B]

Sure.

[A]

And it's just, Trump, headline Trump, headline Trump, headline, Trump, headline Trump had. It's like, just him. I'm kind of already a bit.

[B]

I had this.

[A]

Sick of it.

[B]

I had this, like. So on the lat on his first term, I got 1,000% news fatigue from that. When he went out of office, I was collapsing, and I realized that actually over the last four years, I consumed way less news than I used to. I used to be kind of all day reading that. And since he's been in office, I've seen headlines. I know about, you know, multiple executive orders, but I don't even want to get into that. That emotional investment. It's almost like when you're a fan of a team, like, you don't really have the experience of being a sports fan unless you're emotionally invested. That's really. When you're a fan, is when you.

[A]

Unless it could ruin your day.

[B]

Yeah. It has to ruin your day, otherwise you're not really a fan. And yes, you know, obviously, like, I live in this country. I want things to to go well here. I'm hoping for the best, but I cann emotionally invest in Trump news and just what's happening with this administration like I did the first time, because it just frankly, takes up too much energy and too much time. And I do not. I have a number of things going on, and I do not want to be. It's also a distraction. It's not really affecting you the way you think it is. You know, you start to, like, hear these things, and then you just bark at your friend about it. You know, you're like, you just believe this. It's like, it's not really affecting most people in the way that they think it is and that they say it is. It just isn't like, in the way that most presidents in there don't really change your life that much. So now I know there's people that are going to hear this and be like, well, you know, it kind of affected my life because X, Y and Z happened. Okay? So there's things that are exceptions to that, but for the most part, like what the president is doing, whoever the president is, it doesn't really affect your life that much. You can choose to invest in such a way where it starts to do, like, literally, it's like the. The energy of your day went into reacting to what this person did that you either love or hate. And it's like, I don't. I can't do it.

[A]

Well, think about. You're worried about the outcomes of the policy or whatever. Maybe that'll impact you, maybe it won't. But you can ruin your day worrying about. Worrying about, no matter. Regardless of what happens, this thing does or doesn't happen, it doesn't matter. Your day's already been ruined by worrying about what it is that's gone on, like, I don't know, political anxiety or something.

[B]

It reminds me of, like, the fear of. Of conversations, like confrontation. Like when you go, chris did something, I don't want to talk to him about it. But like, fuck. And you start to, like, play in your head all the ways that it could go. You know what I mean? And you have, like, this anxiety building inside of you of, like. And you start to avoid and avoid and avoid. And then it's just like, just have the conversation and you realize that the worry about the conversation is worse than the conversation itself, right? Like the. All. Everything leading up to that. It's all in your head. So I don't want to have all this exercise in my mind where I'm just, like, so emotionally drained by what the president was doing. You know, it's like, I feel that as a distraction.

[A]

Isn't it interesting that, like, our fear of fear is so much worse than whatever it is that we've got to fear?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Like, just reliably.

[B]

Yes. It's like you learn that you can actually, if you're in your 20s, you can start, you know, I think get into the practice of, like. You learn that, like, having. Because conversations are a thing that I think really make people scared. Communicating with people about, like, what you want, what you need, like, those types of things. It. Those aren't inherently. You're not just, like, good at that. You. You have to get into it. And, like, the younger you can get into the practice of doing it. This is what I think. This is how I feel. Oh, my God. You're in a totally different group. You're a totally different group than. And the people who, you know, repress and just shut down. Like, I mean, that's how I was built. Like, just don't talk about it. Don't talk.

[A]

You don't have needs. Subjugate them. Your desires aren't worthy.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

There's no point in doing this.

[B]

You just shut down and then. Yeah, that's gonna show itself somewhere else.

[A]

Yeah. Neil Strauss says unspoken expectations are premeditated resentments. And people just have this, like, sense. Well, you should have known, like, I wanted this thing.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

You go, well, you didn't fucking tell me.

[B]

Yeah. How do you.

[A]

But now I'm resentful about the fact that you didn't do the thing that I didn't ask you to do. You.

[B]

I resent you for not knowing my thoughts, is what you're.

[A]

If you love doing.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

If.

[B]

If we were really friends and that's.

[A]

You would have known this.

[B]

That is an unrealistic expectation to put on somebody. Yeah. And sometimes the. The. It's you that needs to go, like. Oh, yeah.

[A]

To myself.

[B]

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, so. I mean, some people, like, you really can put that work in. You can realize that earlier in life. This is. There's actually like, a similar thing, I think, for, like, health and fitness, which we were talking about, which is, like, they're not tied to communication, but you realize that there's some people who. They get. It kind of beat into them how important that is young. And they. They stay. They stick with it. And look, man, it's a lot that I want to say. It's easy, but it's easier to stay and maintain in your good health and fitness than it is to get way out of it and go back there. So, like, if you're a young person and you are, you know, one of my friends said one time, he goes, you know, I've never been out of shape. You know, like, I, I was training and as a teen, and he's like, I just never been out of shape. I'm like, oh, yeah. Like, he's like, so I just, just. You make that. That priority. That's a way better thing. And I think there's a parallel for learning how to communicate about yourself. If you can work on those skills of, like, standing up for yourself, learning to talk about things that are bothering you or feeling or whatever, and you can maintain and build on that in, In a, In a younger age. You're way ahead. You're way ahead.

[A]

Was that decidedness something that you struggled with when you were younger?

[B]

A thousand percent. I mean, I don't, I didn't have a good model for it, honestly. You know, like, I, I think, like, my dad was somebody that just, like, he was a. Just kind of shut down and take it. And so I kind of. I feel like I was just like, oh, like if something is bothering you, just kind of. You just deal with it. Yeah. Yeah, you just deal with it. And I think I totally modeled that behavior, you know, of just. Okay, like, just, Just push it down. So, yeah, it took years, I think, of. Of it bothering you enough to realize. Yeah. Then. And then you, of course, explode. Right. Because you've. You've just repressing things.

[A]

You have all of these resentments that build up over time.

[B]

Yeah. And then it just kind of shows itself in other ways. But. Yeah, I mean, I've gotten to a place, I think, where at the very least, an awareness of, like, you have to communicate. And, you know, I've become much more assertive and I, you know, say what I want and talk to people way differently than I did 10, 15, 20 years ago.

[A]

It's strange that we. I have that too. Lots of people have lots of discomfort around advocating for themselves.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So the only way you can serve anybody else is if you're. You can whatever the. Serve people from the saucer that overflows around your cup. Like, how. How are you going to sort anybody else if you. If your stuff hasn't been sorted? And yeah, you know, there's this stat about. It's the likelihood that people ensure their dog completes a course of antibiotics is 95%. The likelihood that they complete a course of antibiotics is 50%. We're literally better at looking after an animal than we are at looking after ourselves.

[B]

That makes total sense. I also think that there's something where, like, you know, like if you have a friend, like, it's more likely that I would advocate for you harder than I would. Way easy, way easier. Yeah, it's way easier to do. Yeah. Like, and really dig into.

[A]

How fucking dare you. Oh, yeah. Yeah.

[B]

Like, yeah.

[A]

But yeah, you'll really stand up for them, but then you'll be encouraging to them. It's like, I'm gonna fight on your behalf, but once we're done, I'll come. Don't worry, man. Like, you know, you tried your best. It's like the level.

[B]

Yeah, that's the other. Oh my God. The way that you talk to friends about any of their struggles and like how they should see themselves versus how we talk to ourselves. When I heard that first broken down, I was like, oh my God, like I'm so abusive.

[A]

I'm a criminal.

[B]

Yeah. Like, it's like, yeah, you talk the way I talk to myself. Like, I have much less self loathing these days than I did. Like everything, it always rears its head and you always. And it's, it's not. I don't feel like you get like this is done right. But it, when something peaks in like that, I feel like it, it has a much shorter shelf life because you realize it's, it's, it is not very loving. There's no acceptance there. And it's, it's ultimately, it's, it's not productive. What's productive is like, like taking action on whatever the thing is. So like I, I just feel like whenever, like, even like if it's like fitness, health and he's like, you piece of sitting around doing nothing. Look at this gut or whatever it is that it doesn't really. I, I could sit in that if I wanted to and I have before for a long time, but it's just like, no, it's like today, now, let's go right? Like whether it's what you're eating or let's go train. You just feel like, you know, with, even with like creative things, you, you get in these like self loathing kind of ruts also about like what your productivity is, whether you're writing a script or you're on stage, but sitting in that, you just realize it just, you just fall deeper into it and you just, it does. You don't do anything. The older you get, the more you just realize the only solution for this, this feeling is just action. So like what I just do in those moments when I feel that is, I open my laptop or I get a pen or I just go to a get on stage and I go. I'm forcing myself. Even if this bombs. Like, I don't want to sit in that feeling of, like, I suck because I. And also, like, I wouldn't do it to you, right? Like, if. If you were like, I suck, I wouldn't be like, you know, you do suck, man. Like, you should just sit here and do nothing. I would be like, like, get up, let's go. Let's go do something. Let's go train, whatever.

[A]

Let's.

[B]

Let's work on a project. Like, so you just learn. I think with age and experience, that action is like, it really is the big solve. That's the one thing I would tell. I told you I don't like to advise like, young artists, and I really don't. But the one thing I would feel comfortable telling them is, like, doing something is the way to getting where you want to go. I don't care if you're a painter or a writer or an actor or a comedian. Like, you're not going to achieve any of that by sitting here and feeling bad about yourself. Go ahead if you want to, but the way out of this is by doing the thing you have to act.

[A]

Once upon a time, Tom Segura used to look like Bert Kreischer ate Tom Segura. But those days are gone because Tom took control of his health. And with function, you can take control of yours without any of the guesswork. They run lab tests twice a year that monitor over 100 biomarkers. Their team of expert physicians then takes the data, puts it in simple dashboard, and gives you insights and actionable recommendations to improve your health and lifestyle. They track everything. Your heart, health, your hormone levels, thyroid function, even nutrient deficiencies. They even screen for 50 types of cancer at stage one, which is five times more data than you get from an annual physical. Getting your blood work done analyzed like this would usually cost thousands, but with function, it is only $500. Right now. You can bypass their waitlist and get the exact same blood panels that I get by going to the link in the description below or heading to functionhealth.com modernwisdom that's function. Well, if you think that action really is the only thing that matters in the end, and what you're trying to achieve, presumably by calling yourself a piece of shit internally, is motivating yourself to go and do the action, you go, okay, so. So what I think is independent of the action. So if I can just go and do the action, I don't need to make myself unnecessarily suffer beforehand. That's just an addiction to me. Always seeing me like the villain or like the loser or like the person that doesn't get anything done. And has there ever been a time when you've gone and done something without calling yourself a piece of shit for doing it? Yeah, loads of times. All the time. All the time. You go and do stuff without first, like, whipping yourself into submission.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Okay, so to try and continue to shortcut that.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Calling yourself a piece of shit and just go straight to. I'm just gonna do the thing. Yeah, I'm just gonna try and do the thing. And, yeah, there's a. An idea around. There are so many people working so hard and achieving so little. And I think the same about the internal landscape of people's minds. There are so many people thinking so meanly about themselves and having so few outcomes from it. It's like, okay, so the reason you want to go and do something is presumably to make your life better. And in the process of trying to motivate yourself to go and do something to make your life better, you make your life fucking miserable. It's like you're sacrificing the thing that you want for the thing that's supposed to get the thing that you want. And then you realize, well, the more that I call myself a piece of shit actually kind of doesn't really motivate me all that much. It's kind of like a toxic fuel that doesn't last that long. Maybe it gets me a really, really bad situation. Really, really, like, down in my health or whatever it is, or I'm young. You go. After a while, it's just habit and routine.

[B]

It's. People get addicted to the suffering. Right. And. And what you need to. What you try to get to is just. It's actually looking at that. That voice as almost like a sign you're passing on a highway. You just kind of look and you go like, oh, yeah, there's that. Like, I think that's a place you want. And then hopefully one day, it's not. It's not even there at all. It's in the. It's in the past. But, yeah, the longer you're in the cycle of being productive, the less that voice is there and the less it lasts and the more you see it for what it is, which is like, it's a nuisance and it's an Obstacle and you.

[A]

And it's an enemy as well. It's not your friend.

[B]

It's not your friend.

[A]

Your mind's not your friend when it's doing that.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

At all.

[B]

Yeah. But it is something that. Again, like, I think so many people think that that's just them. You know what I mean? Like, they just go, like, man, I'm the only one with these. Like, dude, it's. Yeah. Your therapist has those thoughts, like, for real.

[A]

It's funny as well. A lot of people, I think, that maybe have those kinds of thoughts, have high goals for themselves, and they've probably maybe started to make some movement toward them. So you go, wow. So you believe that you have agency in the real world. You think that your efforts can cause an outcome to happen. And, you know, the fact that you moved out of the house a little bit younger than most of your friends, or the fact that you changed that career that you didn't really like, or, you know, when you acquired that skill that you really, really wanted, why do you think that happened? It's like, well, because I worked at it. I worked really hard. Okay, so you're telling me that you and your agency can influence the world outside of you. Yes. Okay. You know, the texture of your mind, you know, the way that you think. Like, do you think that you have agency over everything and then that, for some reason stops at the boundary of your skull?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So, like, the only thing that you actually do directly have agency over, which is what's happening inside of your mind, is the one place that you don't.

[B]

You feel like you're a victim. Yeah.

[A]

Most helpless.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

In that. And it's such a paradox.

[B]

Right.

[A]

So I think people have even been able to save relationships. You know, my partner really wasn't sure that this was going to work, and I proved to them that. That this was the right thing. And now we're married, and we're so happy, and we're all the rest of it. Oh, well. So it's not even like you think that you have more agency over other people than you do over the way that you think.

[B]

It just shows you. Like. Like, all this just makes me think about how complicated the human mind and experience is. It just it, like, you know, when you go to, like, talk about, like, health and weight loss. Right. There's so many people who. You go, like, do you know what to do? Like, do you know what to do to do it? And so many people are like, yeah, just eat this and do this. And you're like, so what Is the holdup, right? Well, the holdup is that sure, that formula is simple, but existing in the world and dealing with life and emotions and thoughts is not that simple. And so the execution of this plan, sometimes it just doesn't go as simply as it kind of should. Right. Like, being a human being is complicated. It just is. We have sophisticated, we're sophisticated minds and entities on this. In this, it speaks to like, what you were just saying. It's like, how can you have, have so much control over this situation, but not here? It's like, you know, I mean, how can you not know to eat some chicken and go on a walk? It's like, well, you do, but it's just being here is, is more complicated than that. It just is.

[A]

I remember you told this story about a friend of yours who got diagnosed with real late stage cancer. And he was like, I'm gonna beat this. You're like, dude, yeah, you tell that.

[B]

This was like, it was so insane. I, I, it was one, it was like my closest high school friend and he came to see me do a show in Palm beach. And I remember we walked back from, we went to a bar that was near the hotel and we walked back to the hotel and he was like, he's overweight, but he was like really huffing and puffing, sweating. And I was like, God, I was like, I'm fat, but you're a mess. Like, I was like, that was hard for you. Like, we just walked like on a, you know, no hill, just like straight down the street. It's like, all right, well, it is Florida, you know, it's humid or whatever. And the next day I think they spent the night and they were driving back. And so then, and then the day after that I go, I was living in la, I get back to la, and another friend was like, oh, did you hear what happened? I was like, here? What happened? I didn't. What do you mean? Oh, yeah. On their way back to their house, my friend's wife was like, I don't like the way you look or you're breathing. So we're just going to stop by the emergency room and like, kind of can, you know, convinced him to. They go to the emergency room, he gets X rayed, he's got tumors everywhere. He's got stage four lung cancer. And it's like. And so this is how I find out on this call. And then, you know, I, he goes immediately into treatment, right? And they're like, yeah, this is, you know, this is basically as bad as it can Get. So his brother finds the specialist who treats this particular type of cancer in Indianapolis. He's doing like, trips from, like, Florida, Indianapolis. I go visit him in the hospital. And, you know, he's. This is like, I don't know, maybe a month has gone by or something. So he's deep into his chemo, he's Bald, he's lost 80 pounds or something. And like, I'm like, everybody's face is kind of like, you know, you could just read it. Doctors, spouse, friends, everyone's like, like, it's good that you're here, you know? And you're like, yeah. And then him, he's just like, yeah, man, just doing this. And like, you know, I'll beat this thing. And then maybe, by the way, in the summer we can go to this. And I'm like, what the. And I'm like, oh, he's just like, crazy, you know? And I'm like, does. Does he understand the gravity of this? And they're like, I mean, I think so, but I always told him, I, I go, I think, think you're dumb enough to think you can do this. And, And I actually remember that, like, when my uncle. My uncle was like a world renowned urologist, and when he got mesothelioma, I remember my dad being like, you know, it's, it's. He's too smart. He knows how to read these charts. Like, he just, he's like, he knows he's gonna die. He knows. He's just, he, he. There's just no. And I say it jokingly, but I feel like my friend was also, like, uninformed and determined obviously to just be like, yeah, I mean, I know this sucks and this treatment sucks, but I'll be fine. And like, believe it. Believe. And they consider him like, in this field and especially with like in this specialty as like a, A true miracle.

[A]

And he did beat it.

[B]

Yeah. He's been in remission for. What is it now? Like seven or more years. I forget how many years now. And he beat it. And he's. And he's. And like, right away, by the way, you're like, he's like. He drinks, he dips, he eats. Like. And you're like, it's like, didn't that scare you? Into a different lifestyle? He's like, huh? Oh my. You're. He's got a watermelon head, so maybe there's just like air in there. I don't know. But yeah, no, he doesn't take, like, particularly good care of himself, which is a. Look, this it's further into, like, the. The conversation we're talking about, like, how minds work is, like, I remember when my dad also. I was at the same. This is. I just realized this right now. I was at the same comedy club. This is more than 10 years ago. This is, like, closer to 15 years ago in Florida. And he came to a show and also didn't look good and was also breathing heavy.

[A]

Stop going to that comedy club.

[B]

I know, right?

[A]

Killing people.

[B]

And my mom also made him go to the emergency room on the way home, and he had 98 blockage in his. One of his arteries. So they did an emergency stint, right? Open up the artery, which is, like, fairly common, but obviously, like, if it's one of those things, like, if he didn't do that, he probably would have had a heart attack in the next, whatever, couple weeks or something. And, like, I don't know, when he got out of the hospital, you know, you feel this relief at the time. And, like, the next time I called him, because we would talk, like, almost every day, I was like, where are you? I'm at McDonald's. And I'm like, didn't you just get an emergency stint put in, like, for your clogged arteries? Yeah, I know. And I'm just having a McMuffin, like, what the, man? And I'm like, don't you want to, like, you know, go, oh, thank you for this new lease on life and eat differently? He's like, what? Like, okay. Like, people just are who they are, you know, in some cases, like, I. I would think. I don't know. Maybe it's just like, an in. Like, when I. I broke my arm and tore my patellar tendon. And I viewed, like, some of that was just, like, a catalyst of, like, oh, I need to take better care of myself. So I guess it's just how you're wired, I guess, in a way, right, where you're like, I don't want to be.

[A]

To learn from experience.

[B]

So I guess I'm friends with stupid people.

[A]

I don't know.

[B]

Like, yeah, like, I don't know. Like, you don't want to start eating healthier because your arteries are clogged. And he was like, it's a McMuffin. I'm like, okay, my friend beats cancer. And you're like, how much tobacco are you consuming every day? He's like, I don't know. Like, you know, there's a correlation, right, to the thing that you narrowly beat and what you're doing every day. Yeah, it's. Yeah.

[A]

Before we continue, I've tried pretty much every green strength that I could find trying to work out which one was best. I came across AG1. They've stuck it, stuck it, stuck with it for years because it's literally the best, most comprehensive, it's the most rigorously tested and best formulation and if I found anything better I would switch. But I haven't is why I still use it. I got my parents to use it, I got my friends to use it and I put it inside of my body every single day. This is NSF certified for sport, meaning that every batch is not only held to strict standards for heavy metals, but also is tested for 280 band substances. One scoop of AG1 contains 75 vitamins, minerals and whole food sourced ingredients including a multivitamin, multi mineral, pre and probiotic green superfood blend and more that all work together to fill the nutritional gaps in your diet, increases energy and focus, aids with digestion and supports a healthy immune system. All without the need to take multiple products or pills. And if you're still unsure, they've got a 90 day money back guarantee so you can buy it, try it every single day for three months and if you do not like it, I'll just, just give you your money back right now. Giving us free supply vitamin D3, K2 and 5 free AG1 travel packs plus that 90 day money back guarantee by going to the link in the description below or heading to drinkag1.com modernwestern drinkag1.com have you ever seen the midwit meme? Do you know what that is?

[B]

Mm mm.

[A]

Oh dude. So imagine a bell curve. It's an IQ bell curve. And on the left hand side's this sort of Neanderthal looking mean guy with the heavy brown and then in the middle at the top is the sort of raging lib guy and then on the far side is the sage that's got his hood up looking like a Jedi. And the joke is that the guy on the left and the guy on the right always arrive at the same conclusion and the guy in the middle tries to overcomplicate it. So we've spent, me and George, my friend, have spent I'm not kidding like months talking about this. He sent me another meme about it this morning. It's like the most, I think it's the most philosophically important meme because. Because let's say it's getting in shape. Yeah. Lift weights, eat protein. Lift weights, eat protein. I must ensure that my pre digested whey is consumed within 30 minute window. I have to make sure that my blue blockers are put on before, like, it's just the guy in the middle ruins everything is over, complicating things. And what you've got, what you've found is a bunch of people that are on the left. And here's the thing that people don't get about the midwit. Me and this is, we've refined this over a million dinners. Every guy in the middle is a guy in the left trying to be the guy in the right.

[B]

That's for sure.

[A]

You can't be the guy on the right. It's impossible to be the guy on the right. The only thing you can be is the guy on the left.

[B]

And some people just don't know they're the guy on the left. Some people are aware of.

[A]

Precisely correct. Precisely correct, yes. So there's some people who are naturally gifted with that now. They've got some challenges too, that maybe they're gonna get hit by things that they didn't quite see, you know, rolling the dice and having these sorts of stories where, like, the miraculous recovery because of this guy, his inability to realize how ridiculous his goals are because he's not trying to be the guy in the right and ending up being the guy in the middle. He's like, I'm gonna beat this thing.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

But, yeah, you can't be the guy in the right. You can only be the guy in the left. So what you're trying to cultivate, it's like cultivated stupidity is the best you can hope for. If you don't, if you're not gifted with it, if you're not gifted with like, aha, you got the natural stupidity. Congratulations. Like, if you didn't have that, it's like, you just need to be, okay, I'm gonna default to being the simple thing, not trying to be the over complex thing, which ends up being the simple thing anyway. But what you end up doing is just being stuck in the middle.

[B]

You don't want to be the loud, dumb guy. Just be dumb and quiet. Basically. Like the nothing worse than, like the ignorant. The most ignorant people are always like yelling about it. And you're just like, man, you just don't, you don't want to have to be like that. Do you ever think because another bell curve thing, somebody I forgot who brought this to my attention was the idea that, you know, there's a. The average IQ is like a hundred. And then you think of like, people with developmental issues who are, you know, let's say technically under 70, right? It's like you. And you kind of go like, oh yeah, average is it? But then you go like, do you realize how many people are 90, 80, 75? Like, it's not a couple, it's millions and millions of. For that to be the average. That like, you're surrounded by a lot of noise from people that are barely putting sentences together, you know, and you can you. If you stop and have enough conversations, you'll figure it out. Like, there's a lot of nonsense that you should ignore. And they have a voice too. And the best thing you can do is tune them out. Like, seriously, there's like, yeah. I mean, you might not be on the far other side of that equation where you're. You're not 140 or something, but if you're even just lucky enough to be blessed with the average or slightly around there, there's a lot of people you should not be listening to.

[A]

There's a really interesting stat that guys in high school who have got IQs of 70 are more likely to not be virgins than guys in high school have got IQs of 130.

[B]

Well, like, stupid people only know how to fuck. That is kind of a thing, right? I mean, I've been to those countries and they're underdeveloped and that's what their whole currency is. They're just like, I. So it's not crazy to me to.

[A]

They.

[B]

Yeah, they have their own showering system. They're. There's a lot of sand. But dumb people. If you ask a lot of chicks like, who is the best of your life? They're gonna be like, it was a dumb guy. That guy was a machine.

[A]

Didn't over complicate it.

[B]

He did. Ye. He just got in there and knew what to do. And like, that's his. If you're dumb, I mean, that might be like the thing you're best at, you know, because it feels good. It's like it's this dumb equation. You're like, touch this. It feels good. They. That makes sense to them. I feel like they're not. They're not introspective. They're not going to have.

[A]

Well, they don't get in their own head about it, right? They're not. They're not the urologist reading his sheets. No, they're just in the moment.

[B]

They're just in the moment and they.

[A]

Just go, the guy on the left is the best fuck in the world. Who knew?

[B]

He definitely is. It's definitely not the guy on the far right. No, no.

[A]

Well, yeah, I don't know. The, the idea of trying to be a little bit more simplistic. Another perfect example of this in Atomic Habits by James Clear. He talks. I think it's like the head of the Chinese weightlifting team. And they're super advanced. They're getting these kids from like five years old.

[B]

Right.

[A]

It's a religion, weightlifting in China. And he asked what is the difference between the guys who are world champions and the rest of the elite? And he said, the guys that are world champions are prepared to come in and do the boring things without complaining and realizing that it's not supposed to be there. It's like, oh, okay. So if you have this cultivated stupidity where you can say, look, this is going to suck, suck. And I shouldn't rail against the fact that it sucks. Matt Fraser, who won the CrossFit Games five, six times in a row, he did an engineering degree. And there's a story in Chasing Excellence by Ben Bergeron where he says he would wrote, memorize his entire engineering textbook page for page. And if he got one word wrong, he'd go back to the start and do it again. So this guy basically very, very smart, very, very driven. But then he had to have this cultivated stupidity thing. If you're gonna go and do monostructural work on a rowing machine or a skierg or a air runner or whatever, you need to go and go. This is gonna be 90 minutes at 140bpm. It's the zone 2E. Boring. It's the most boring thing. It's not even gonna give me the satisfaction of feeling like I've worked.

[B]

Yeah, yeah.

[A]

Like I've got to just sit.

[B]

But I know, I know that it's going to help my steady state kind of, you know, conditioning improve.

[A]

Go slow to go fast.

[B]

And so like, it's kind of back to the thing though that like those elite athletes are either so smart that they know to be the guy in the left. Yeah.

[A]

Or they are the guy in the.

[B]

Left left who just goes, show up and do it.

[A]

That's it. It just feels good. The midwit meme is, is undefeated. But I mean, that's why I have a. I find it interesting when sports stars get criticized for boring or basic post match interviews.

[B]

I do too.

[A]

What did you expect?

[B]

Yeah, and also he didn't sign up to be a great interview. You know, he or she, like they, that, that's not part of that. You're making that, you're putting that on them. That they have to be fantastic and.

[A]

Charismatic because you're using your own barometer for what you consider to be successful as a non elite athlete.

[B]

Yeah, this person is just hitting forehands and backhands. That's what they're supposed to be good at.

[A]

Lift weights, hit ball.

[B]

That's it. And like, they. They did it well. So, like, whatever comes after that is like, you know, you're projecting onto the, oh, I can't believe that they said this or they had an attitude why or that. They didn't give, like an eloquent answer. Like, this person's supposed to be a philosopher. It's like it's a fucking Neanderthal half the time.

[A]

For every. For every Tom Brady or Aaron Rodgers, there's like 200 guys on the left. Like someone that's. I've thought really deeply about this. I understand exactly what it means to me, et cetera, et cetera. Tell you one sport that actually feels like that's not the case, where everybody is the guy on the right. Formula one. I don't see many people, Many of the drivers in Formula one, Dean. Is anybody in Formula one? Is Dean here? Here? Anyone in Formula one? The guy in the left. Is there any, like, Neanderthal, super simple, like, drive car fast, go sideways people? Danny Ricardo, maybe, but he's more like the party guy on the left. He's like the guy in the left, but in a party hat. But you know what I mean.

[B]

Danny is, though, he's a pretty nuanced thinker. Like, he has this. He has this. This Persona of like. Because he is like. But then you sit with him and you talk and you realize, yeah, these. These guys are all, oh, you went to that.

[A]

That's where you met Zach, at that party, right? Weren't you at some F1 party? Was that not something to do with Danny Ricardo last. Was it last year or the year?

[B]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I'd met Danny at. In Australia at his place I went to. And then when he had his party. That's right. Zach was at that thing here.

[A]

And everyone accused him of being Pedro Pascal from Wish.

[B]

That's right.

[A]

On Instagram. I mean, he looks a lot like Pedro.

[B]

He still does. It's not a bad thing, man. He's got a good thing going on. I thought the new hair was for a new part. I was like, what do you. What are you in.

[A]

Yep.

[B]

No, but you're right. Those guys are. They're pretty bright. They're pretty bright guys. Maybe there's some correlation between high performance driving and you can't be. Yeah. A box of rocks.

[A]

I just. There's certain things that are so technical.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I would imagine, for instance, golf. I don't know golf, but I would imagine that it's probably pretty difficult to be a golfer and also be the guy on the left because.

[B]

A high level one. Yeah, yeah, because. And most of the time. Well, I guess there's other factors. Most of the time when you see these. Most PGA people had a certain upbringing. They're usually well educated. You know, that sport is usually associated with a certain socioeconomic level. I mean, it obviously is people who have started elsewhere, but for the most part, you find it in. Well, to do, you know, environments and people who have a certain level of education. But you're right, there's. There's not a lot of. I don't know, like, back nine.

[A]

I've thought this. I've thought this through really carefully.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Yeah. Well, that's the difference. If you were to go, I'm gonna again, I'm going to NASCAR at Cota in a couple of weeks time, so please don't take this the wrong way. I don't imagine that the NASCAR drivers have quite the same mentality that the Formula one drivers do. I imagine that you could get some more guys on the left in nascar, despite the fact that it's probably a very similar sort of Sport.

[B]

Yes, that's 100% true, for sure. Yeah. I mean, there's.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

The Formula one guys, for the most part are more sophisticated style. But also, I mean, there's definitely some really bright people who've done the nascar, and then there's some people who just go like, foot down, turn left, foot down. Hold on, baby. Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's definitely true. And then, like, I think you find more guys on the left if you're talking about violent sports, too. Right. So for.

[A]

I mean, no one's going to Nate Diaz for like his sort of deep philosophical insights about stuff, but holy fuck. Yeah, he is gonna annihilate you. And there's that. You know, I've heard these stories about his and his brothers, like they do triathlons and sort of this endurance racing thing. Their ability to put their head down, I don't like.

[B]

That's one that I. You know, you always. You're drawn to do things that you naturally have some skill at. Right. Or it feels good to do. And then we. You naturally. You reject things where you're like, oh, this doesn't. I don't. I'm not good at this. And I don't like this, like with sport. Right. Like, you just always are like, like doing the things you have some skill at and you're like, I don't like this other thing, these ultra marathon people. Like, part of it I realize is that, like, it's just not in me. And I don't even understand this mental aspect. And I've talked to a few. I'm just like, I, I don't understand how you're doing this 150 mile. Horrible idea. Like how. But like that just speaks to like, like it's. Again, I feel like you want to be the guy on the left for that. You don't want to have as much awareness.

[A]

There's certain sports where it's, it's a real competitive advantage. There's this kid called Ned Brockman out of Australia. So I, when I did my tour over there, I had him on the show. He ran a thousand kilometers or a thousand miles around a track and it took him just over a week. And he, his shins were just torn apart and he's got shaved on top like the classic Aussie, like real Aussie mullet. Not one of these trendy wanky Austin things, you know, where there's like a bit of hair up top to make it balanced. Yeah, it's like, like Theo Von's. Theo Von, basically. And he, he did that. He ran across Australia. He tried to break the record for running across Australia. And you speak to him in particular and he like, like I was trying to find the Goggins ancestral trauma void inside of him. Sure. I'm like, oh, you're just, you're just doing this because you like the thrill of it. Like you're just doing this because run far, feel good and yeah, it's, it's. I wonder, I wonder how people can kind of get out of their own head. So a lot of the different things that we've touched on to do with the self loathing, the criticism, that internal voice, all of those things are putting limits on your self belief and your capacity. And they're making you think, well, maybe, maybe you can't do that, maybe you shouldn't do that. Or maybe in the pursuit of even doing that, you should hate yourself a little bit more. And I'm like, okay, how can we, I want to work out how to cultivate how people that are intrinsic overthinkers can create a little bit more cultivated stupidity. I think that would be like, I don't know, hit everyone on the head. Fucking microdose of mushrooms, smoke weed on The. I don't know.

[B]

Yeah, no, we all. I mean, I think we. We all have this thing where we o. We can overthink. You can make, like. I remember talking to some about it. Like, it, for instance, production. When you go, I'm going to shoot something, you can always find reasons to not do the thing. Well, this is just going to be. It's. I mean, it's going to be a night shoot, or it's going to cost this, or I don't know if we're going to get the right sound person, and I don't. The makeup is not going. Like, you can just find reasons to not do things. I guess it goes back for me to just. Just if. Whether you're underthinking, overthinking, just take action in any. You know, I mean, so, like, overthinking that production thing is something that happens to so many people. Like, I'm using the example of production, but this just happens for, like, whatever thing they want.

[A]

Career change.

[B]

Yeah, career change. Or like, even something pleasurable. Yeah. Talk to the girl, go on a trip. We're gonna go skiing. And then, like, you know, I don't know if I have the goggles and I have to go get them. Like, dude, like.

[A]

Like, we.

[B]

We talk ourselves out of a lot of things. Whether it's like, production pleasure. It's just. It's. Honestly, all these things are just like. It's life. It's like, it's. It's being in the game. Like people. You want to be in the game, Right. Whether it's like, in work or in. In your own love life or whatever, you don't want to be on the side. You don't want to be. Not to, like, pile on, but you don't want to be one of the lonely people. And those people. There's a lot of reasons where someone could end up in that situation, but one of them is definitely they're talking themselves out of things. Talking out of engaging.

[A]

Yeah. That's so interesting. Well, there's a vicious spiral. You know, you sort of touched on it earlier on that when you've got good habits, they feed you good habits, and then you believe in yourself more. But the same thing happens in reverse. Yes. And it's such a. And I understand why people on the Internet rail against anybody that appears to have had runaway success because they go, if you are. Not that. If you are using the same dynamic, but in reverse, which is you've got runaway failure, that fucking sucks. And I've been there, I've Been in the. I. I just continue. I reliably face plant every single thing that I try to do, from the smallest to the biggest. And I need to use the. I don't know how to do it, but I need to, like, rip this 10 ton gorilla off the floor attached to a barbell. I need to, like, find a way to reverse this momentum.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And then when you're on the other side of it, you almost have this sense of like, survivor guilt, like retrospect, like, oh, holy, this is, this is me feeling the win that, that was the loss of.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And I had this conversation with this guy, William Von Hippel, fascinating anthropologist, evolutionary psychologist. Yesterday he was telling me about how two fundamental needs that humans have. One is autonomy and the other one is connection. And the thing is, if you've got a hierarchy, everybody needs connection. And his belief is fundamentally, that's what everybody's after. They want to be warm, they want to be friendly, they want to be valued. Weird thing is, in order to be valued, autonomy allows you to build up some of that, some of the capacities. So you need to be selfish. You need to go. If you're good at comedy, there is a degree of connection. You've had to sacrifice to do that. Because you don't do comedy in union with your wife or in union with your friends or whatever. You have to spend a lot of time. If you're Steph Curry and you shoot 3503 pointers in training, I know that you've had to sacrifice some connection in order to be able to build up that autonomy.

[B]

Right.

[A]

And the autonomy then creates this, like, capability. People value the capability thing, but what they really, really want is the connection. So there's this fascinating bit of research that shows that people who are more competent are seen as colder regardless of how friendly they are. And people who are more incompetent are seen as more warm and friendly, regardless of how warm and friendly they are. And there's this sense that, huh, I sort of infer from someone's capabilities and whether or not they're smart or successful or whatever, hey, you're not very pro social because if you're rich or you've achieved status or you've done a thing, you've lost all of this weight, Adele, you've lost all of this weight. There's this bit in the back of our mind that kind of knows you were selfish for a while. You had to work on you. You had to be selfish for a while. Whereas you don't have the same in the opposite Direction. I thought that was so interesting, this sort of tension between competence and warmth and the fact that we see them as opposed to each other. Competent people are seen as cold, and incompetent people are seen as warm. Want.

[B]

That is. And as you said it, I was just nodding along because it feels like one of those things where you realize it's kind of automatic. Like, it's. It's. It's like, you know, the, the test where they say that, then they use every, like, Psychology 101 department does this, where they have the person carry the books and they drop them in front of. And. And they have an attractive person do it. Everyone's like, hey, there you go. Like, it's just. It's automatic. It's in your brain. And then people are. People are colder or. Or I would say more inviting and warm and wanting to be helpful to it, not to attract to people. That's another thing that's just like, automatic. Like, if you're in a. Somebody's like, lost, and you just go, yeah, but, like, the competency is really interesting because I've. I've never actually heard. It's one of those things where it's like in stand up, when somebody articulates a thing that's always been there, and you go like, no one's ever said it, but it's interesting that we have. We do have. Yeah. Like, you feel naturally warmer to somebody. Like somebody can't figure something out. You. I guess that's kind of like a. In a way, that's a good thing, where you go, let me embrace this. Like, help. You want. You want to help the person who is seemingly incompetent, at least to a degree.

[A]

Right? Yeah. Yeah.

[B]

Sometimes. Well, sometimes. But then there's a. A. There's a point of frustration with that, too.

[A]

God damn it.

[B]

But the more interesting thing is, is the other side of it, the fact that you would have a perception that a highly competent person is just cold.

[A]

Yeah, well, the other, you know, you. Trump's kind of maybe an interesting example around it. You could argue about his level of competence, but he's not stupid. And I. I wonder whether a little bit of it is if somebody's really competent. There's this sense in the back of your mind where you go, are they really being themselves? Is this them or is this some sort of subterfuge act thing that they're.

[B]

Trying to put me on right now? Yeah.

[A]

Secret Squirrel Society me and fugazi me. Whereas there's. I mean, I look at a bunch of different people, whether it's in sport, whether it's in entertainment, the sort of simple, lovable oaf type character. There is this sense of warmth to them because you go, hey, he might make some errors, but he owns those errors. And they're from the heart. The errors that are kind of like a natural outgrowth. They're not manipulative, they're not being done for some particular reason.

[B]

Which speaks to fear, though, Right. Because what the thing is, is you're less scared of that oath. You're more scared of the very intelligent person. It's always been this way. Somebody who's like, highly intelligent. Part of your brain just goes, what's this person capable of doing? To me, that's. That's really at the root of what you're going. What you're feeling. You're feeling that this highly intelligent person is either going to be. Is going to want to, like, pull something over on you. They're going to get you to do something you didn't want to do.

[A]

They're going to use this information against me.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

What should I tell them?

[B]

That's exactly what your brain's doing is. It's like it's protecting itself. The oath, the lovable oath. You don't have to worry about that. Your guard goes down completely. You go, this is like a puppy, you know, like, there's nothing going on behind this person's eyes that I can't pick up on. This person just wants to. Whatever they say is what they want. And so, like, that's the thing, is that we're just kind of protecting ourselves with the highly competent person.

[A]

Well, you know, I guess one of the interesting areas of this is lots of people that listen to podcasts have the endemic overthinkers. They're the people that are trying to learn more about the world, and they're spending time doing that even now as it seems like the podcast election and everything. It's like, I think only about 50% of Americans listen to a podcast once a month. And then you've got the power users that listen to the multiple hours per day. But you think, okay, so you're probably listening to podcasts. I do.

[B]

You do?

[A]

I do. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's changed. My listening habits have changed a lot since doing the show. And I think in order to kind of be fresh, there's an amount of exposure that you need to limit yourself to.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Or else you end up being too heavily influenced. I imagine that watching other comics is probably like this as well.

[B]

Yeah, you. You really just Want to. Like, I mean the thing is I get so much anxiety. Watching this sounds like bad, but like just watching somebody not. I only want to watch really good comics in person. And so like if somebody's really good, I want to watch that. If they're not, I don't want to watch.

[A]

Why?

[B]

It just, I, I think you, you, you're feeling, you know, all those things. The feelings of trying to figure it out and the insecurities and like. And also there's tired bits and like there's, you know, like you're watching a seven year guy. You're like, this is like, like the best version of this is not great anyway. So you don't want to.

[A]

It's a seven year guy, like a.

[B]

Guy who's been doing it just like he's still in like this development phase. And so you just go like. It just makes me. I just don't want to be around it. I want to watch like high level people. I want to watch because it's, it's really good. It is inspiring. It makes you go like, like, ah, I need to, I need to write more. Like th. Those are the people I want to watch. Which, I mean, that's my own thing. Right. Like I. But I also know a lot of people like that. Like I can't stand in the back of the room and just watch us like person after person go up who's like fledgling and trying to figure it out.

[A]

Oh, that's Kill Tony. That is what Kill Tony is for.

[B]

Kill Tony is.

[A]

Well, you've got a release valve. The difference with that is you've got a pressure release valve.

[B]

True.

[A]

So I wonder the only totally bro science thing that's pulling it out of my ass. This has to be the same. I would guess if you were a musician. Watching a musician not perform particularly well on stage. I continually miss notes and do other bits. In fact, I know that this is the case. I know that this is the case firsthand from being in Jamaica recently. I wonder whether there's a bit of it where you're starting to tune your own nervous system to like the. This sensation that you're working really, really, really hard to avoid. You're watching this person do the thing that you do and going, I'm feeling I've got ptsd.

[B]

Yeah, it is. There's.

[A]

There's definitely PTSD part of bringing it back into me. I've worked really hard to get rid of that. I don't want that in my world.

[B]

Exactly. No, that. That's definitely happening. It's Definitely happening. You, you're, it's triggering hundreds and thousands of, like, bad memories. Bad memories. Yeah. And you just are like. And you, like, you can just see, like, you, you see all of a sudden, you, you see that these micro movements of like. Oh, I see that discomfort. I see where this is going. I know what this top, like, this is just. I, I, this is bad. I want to leave. So I, I want to leave, literally leave the room. And then if you tell me, like somebody's on stage who you go, this person's really good. I, yeah, I want to watch that. That feels good. It actually relaxes me. Me. Like, I feel, I feel how well it could go. Yes. Yeah, it relaxes me.

[A]

I wonder what the, I wonder what the sort of common lesson is there or what the sort of rule is there to try and spend time watching people.

[B]

But you're, but you're right on kill Tony, though, in that, you know, in those people are doing like a minute. And that anxiety in me can build high in that minute. I mean, I've sat up there where I'm like. And then you just waiting for that cat to meow. You're like, oh, thank God. Like, just, just. Yeah, it's, it's, there's a very uncomfortable feel. People, we don't all react to it the same way, I think, though, but for a comedian who's done it. Yeah, you start to feel what they're feeling. Yeah, yeah.

[A]

It's such an, such an emotional area. Yeah. I, I really do think that the, that cultivated stupidity thing and trying to, trying to simplify down, trying to not, to not, not hold yourself to too high standards, but just realize that the outcome that you're trying to achieve only really depends on the actions that you're going to take. And all of this fuckery that you've got going in, all of the stories that you tell yourself, all of the ruminate, all of the fear of. Fear of the conversation, all of the concern about whether should I be assertive but what they're gonna say. So I had this really lovely question on a Q and A last week that said, I know that I deserve more, but I'm really terrified to ask for it. I didn't specify what the situation was. Maybe something at work, maybe something in a relationship, maybe something with family or what. Um, like, I know that I deserve more, but I'm really scared of asking for it. It's like what an odd but totally.

[B]

Relatable, relatable thing situation to be in.

[A]

It's like I Know that this is something that I'm allowed, that I can have, that I should have. And they probably know too. And I'm still. I'm in my head about all of this. The same thing goes for your pursuits, your professional life, your personal life, all of that stuff.

[B]

Yeah, that's. That's an extremely universal question. Right. And I mean, my immediate thought is like, I. I can't help but think about, like, actually in entertainment, like in what. In what I do, is that you come into it feeling like that you're like, I want these things. And then you have representation, but you view representation as like mom and dad, which is not how you're supposed to do it.

[A]

How so?

[B]

Because you're young and you go, like, can I. I. Is it okay? Would you approve of me? Do you think I can? And then it cultivates these. This relationship. A lot of young actors and comedians have this, like, kind of twisted relationship with their first reps. Right. Which is why a lot of times, you people hit the next phase in their life and they change if they can, because they need. They need a relationship that's more. Are equal as opposed to, like this weird power balance. Yeah. That's not supposed to really be there because it's like, with the woman, you go like, but I want. But I don't feel like I should say to that person. It's like, there's certain people, you just feel like you can't say the thing too, which is fine. I think that's a normal thing. You need to then switch the person that you're talking to that you can speak like that too. And that's what happens a lot in our field. I would say, like, that people want to ask for things and they're scared to. I was like, well, then you need to change who you're asking. You know, I mean, obviously you need to get to the point where you feel like you can ask for these things, but sometimes you just don't feel like you can say certain things to certain people.

[A]

What have you learned about human psychology through this recent obsession with true crime?

[B]

Mine. Recent man, 40 years.

[A]

Vestigial.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Long time.

[B]

Yeah. I mean, I just feel like crime and, you know, behaviors of criminals is a. I don't understand how somebody is not fascinated by how other human beings can act. I think there's something about. About crime in it, in and of itself, that is so accessible, that that's part of. In other words, you can go into the bank and rob it. You've gone in there before, but you you, you, you. I'm fascinated by the fact that somebody does that. Right? Like, I was just there, I'm in line. I see what they're seeing. But like the fact that they do that, that is everyone's felt rage. Everyone's like, I could kill this, whatever.

[A]

Driver.

[B]

Yeah, Salesperson, driver, whatever. And. But you just don't. And then to, you know, the rage thing, I guess everybody understands how you could trip over rage. But then when you realize that some people are calculated and they, they are getting their thrill out of doing that, it's just that a fascinating aspect of, I think the human experience that there's somebody that's the same. The reason I have fascination with dictators and how they can, you know, you, you see certain similarities between people that commit violent crimes and certain people that are super highly malignant narcissists that run a. A country. But yeah, it's just like a study for me. It's like the study in, in how somebody becomes that is what's fascinating. So, like, you do see parallels sometimes, and then sometimes you don't. And so in other words, like, you know, there's neglect, there's abuse, there's trauma, and a lot of people that commit horrible acts of violence, but sometimes there isn't. And I mean, I guess just for, for me, I don't know, it's like it. I have always had that curiosity about those stories because I like the story. I like learning about what somebody did, and I really love learning about how somebody gets caught. I mean, those, those are like, you know, there's a whole genre of books and films just about this, these topics, obviously. And like, this reminds me of my wife's like, I can't believe you're watching this. I'm like, you think they made this for me? Like, you think I'm. There's one guy watching this. This is a fucking number one show right now. Like, like, these are, these are fascinating stories, but I think the reason they're fascinating is because it's right there. Like, you know what I mean? Like, you're here and you're like, there's someone who's just like dialed two degrees this way and they're doing this.

[A]

So much of them are so similar and the behaviors are different. Different.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And then, I mean, like, yes. I mean, some of it is that you. I think you hear some of these stories, you feel fear or you feel a rush or, you know, sometimes, I mean, look, there's even stories that repel you. Like, there's. There's a variety of them. Like, I, I, there's stories that I don't even, I gotta start learning about. I don't want to learn any more about this. It just depends on the actual story. But, but yeah, I do, I can.

[A]

I can deeply house a true crime story.

[B]

Yeah, I like, I, I like documentaries. I like the, the, the Limited series on all these things. I, I watch a lot of them. Yeah.

[A]

I had Marissa Harrison on. She's the world expert in female serial killers. She's had a new book out called Just As Deadly. And only one in six serial killers are women. But because of the ways that they kill, it's way less newsworthy. So a lot of this are nurses looking after babies and infants, carers looking after old people or disabled people, people that have got mental disorders, stuff like that. Some of them are what they called angel of death, mercy, mercy killing type things. But they feel like that's gonna skew because if you keep doing it over and over, it's actually for the thrill. The methods are totally different as well. That a lot of the time it's poison, it's sort of surreptitious ways. It's not like. And that makes it way less newsworthy as well. If there's like an axe and a load of blood everywhere, that's a pretty big story.

[B]

Oh, my God. Yeah.

[A]

You know, another infant dies in a ventilator or something. It's like we don't really do. No, but, yeah, I know exactly what you mean. This sense that this person's really similar to me and yet their outcomes in life have been really different to me. And the way that they behave has been so different to me. Why? What is it about that?

[B]

Why? And how, how, how does it get here? Like, what's the story? And then how, how did they move from this to that? I mean, it's like why I like, you know, people always talk about like, these, the worst dictators as like monsters. And then you just kind of get used to that term. But you're like, yeah, but they're not, you know, I mean, like, sure, their acts are. What they did was horrible. You just remember that this. No, it's just like another dude, like, he's just a guy and he was capable of this. And that's. I wanna, I wanna get like to the real story of how this person.

[A]

Why. Yeah, there's a great example that Sam Harris uses about Udayhi Hussain, Saddam Hussein's son goes on to be pretty bad guy.

[B]

Yeah. Kind of a knucklehead.

[A]

Yeah, but you say, okay, so imagine that your three year old, Uday Hussain, and you're maybe squashing bugs in the backyard. But you've grown up in this sort of crazy honor culture. You've got the genetics of a literal fucking war criminal. You've got this sort of very odd reinforcement mechanism because everybody's bowing down to you and your family, and no one's telling you that you kind of. You can't do anything. And you're watching your dad and do all of these things, and maybe there's a, I don't know, harem or whatever the fuck. You go, okay, now you're seven years old and you're bullying the kids in the schoolyard, and now you're 15 years old and you go, like, at what point does that person kind of become the architect of themselves? You go, well, I don't really know, but it's an interesting question to think, like, from the very moment, from before the moment you were born, from the moment that you were conceived, your behavior was being shaped in this way. And then this interaction between the raw materials that you were made of and the environment that you were put in, especially given that the environment you're put in is usually the same one that created the material. So there's this sort of, you know, two times boost, multiplier effect thing going on because you've got the aggressive genes and you're raised in an aggressive household, which means, oh, that's the way that I deal with my anger or whatever it might be. I've got the suppress the emotions down gene. And I saw my dad always suppress the emotions down, so I never need to assert myself.

[B]

You're gonna do it. I mean, he and his brother Uday and Forget his brother's name. But, you know, they would, like, they would pull people out of traffic. Like, if you. If you, like honked at them, Baghdad, they would just rip you out of the car, either kill you or just beat you, throw you in a trunk. They would. They ran around that place like it was all theirs, because it was. They would people up, did whatever they want. So, yeah, if you're born into that environment and you have, have. You have, like anything you want to do is signed off on. Like, there's. There is no accountability. It's not gonna. It's not gonna create this. This loving spirit that, you know, I mean, like, it's. It's gonna.

[A]

You expect him to.

[B]

Yeah, it's gonna bring out the worst in you. Yeah, he. Those guys, I don't think they ever had really a chance with being born into that in there with their father being who he was. There was never a chance those guys were gonna be good. Chill dudes.

[A]

Who have you been fascinated by mostly in true crime recently?

[B]

Let's see, what did I most recently watch? I mean, I'm listening to that True. The Real Dictators podcast, and I'm learning about Varela right now, one of the Argentine dictators or generals that kind of became a dictator. And then I've been watching. I mean, I watched a bunch of the. The series. Like, the thing that was fascinating to me about the. I was saying this to. I had Susan Hendrickson, the CNN crime reporter, is. We were discussing how, like, when you watch the documentaries now about, like, famous cases that you grew up with, part of your brain goes, yeah, I already know that story. And then you watch these and you're like. Like, oh, I don't remember, A, any of this. Or B, I didn't even had any idea about any of these details. Nothing. Like, I remember when I watched the Lacy Peterson one, the Scott Peterson one. I. I just had, like. I was like, oh, yeah. I mean, I remember, like, vaguely this detail. Or like, the Menendez brothers. I was like, yeah, they shot their parents. I didn't have any recollection about the level, like, the abuse that they went allegedly through at the hands of their father. I had no recollection about that. I. I really didn't know the fact that, like, their father was so loathed by everybody he had ever interacted with that they couldn't even provide a character witness at the trial for him to speak on his behalf on a guy that was murdered who had, you know, seemingly relationships with people he had worked with and in his personal. Not one person would be like, yeah, this was a good guy. Like, details like that that really start to shape the story in your mind a little differently. I had forgotten. I could not believe, because they had the interrogation footage of Scott Peterson, just how crazy cold that guy was and how casual he was like, yeah, this is like the. The day they pull him in and she's missing, he's like, I went fishing and, like, came back, the dog was barking, and I hope you find her. And you're like, that's. You're like, wow. Because it's. What's interesting to me in that story is that the person is sure cold enough and calculated enough to do this, but they're so removed from how they should be behaving in that situation. You're like, oh, you can't Even like he couldn't even either lack the awareness or couldn't even pretend to be somebody.

[A]

Well, I always think about that. I mean, everybody has imagined, how am I going to behave? What am I going to do?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And your nervous system is just on fire.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Like, it's just. I would love, I mean, this would obviously never happen, but I would love for huberman or someone to get in and tap their cortisol and their adrenaline. What is going on under the hood? Because that would. Everything. All you're hearing is just this ringing in your ears. You've had the same thoughts over and over and over again. You're watching, you're watching the interrogator seeing what they're saying, thinking, what should I say here? You're four steps removed from being in the room.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You know, you're thinking about how you should act based on what, you know, that the interrogator thinks about what you should be doing if you were the person that did that.

[B]

There's too many hoops you're going through.

[A]

So it's, it's. But this is the other thing where, you know the Madeline McCann case. Yeah, yeah. So missing girl, three year old girl, I think from Portugal in the 90s, British girl who was there on holiday. And one of the criticisms that her parents had, one of the criticisms lodged against her parents was that on the press tour they didn't seem like they were behaving like grieving parents were. Yes. And you go, so I get that. And in some situations that might be an indication of guilt. But also, what does a grieving parent that's faced with an entire press corps behave? What, what is normal in that situation?

[B]

Same JonBenet criticism. And it, it really made me think about. Did you watch American Nightmare?

[A]

No.

[B]

So this is one of the most.

[A]

Is that the one next door? No, that was, that was Murder Next Door. I saw that one.

[B]

Yeah, that's a different one. Or into the Fire. That one's fucking. That's really crazy. But American Nightmare, the most fascinating aspect of the story to me, which I don't know how to tell it without like giving too much. But like the most fascinating aspect is that on episode one, this guy tells in. He's telling you as the interviewer, but they go to the interrogation footage telling the police of what just happened, which is that he was with his girlfriend and somebody came in and tied them up, gave them like something to drink.

[A]

I have seen this. I have. Yes, yes, yes, yes.

[B]

And kidnapped her. Right. And you're watching this and you're like, this guy is full of shit. Like, something is off the. He is not speaking to the police.

[A]

In the way that he should.

[B]

That he should. His emotions are not reading the way that I know they should. Good. The second episode begins and they're talking to the woman and she's tell. You're seeing her in the interrogation and you're still like, yeah, this is not. This is not. And then when you get through the story, you're like, oh, they were both telling the truth. And I'm sorry, I just ruined it for everybody. But that was like the real. I was like, that was. The thing that threw me the most was like, no, I know how you're supposed to behave in a truthful way. And this is not that. So this is not truthful. And then you're like, wait a minute, this was truthful. And that to me, was like the most. I. I still couldn't get over it. The way that he was talking about what had just happened. I was like, I understood actually why the police were like, this is.

[A]

It's you, dude.

[B]

Yeah, what the. And the same thing with the girl. They're like, well, she's full of. This is not. It's like the party. And they seem like they're seemingly normal. Like they're nice people. At least they can come across this way. When you. You see them, like in the moment now telling the story, but you're like, the fuck was going on. And maybe is what's going on is what you were saying is that their systems were so fucking far in their head.

[A]

So there's this really interesting idea called the Keynesian beauty contest. So in a Keynesian beauty contest, you're not asked to pick which is the most beautiful model. The imaginary beauty contest, you're not asked to pick out of 10, which you think is the most beautiful. You're asked to pick which you think the other judges will pick as the most beautiful model. Model.

[B]

Oh, yeah.

[A]

So rather than choosing your own opinion, you're trying to outsource this sort of fake consensus using theory of mind to all of the other people that are in the room. And I always think about that Keynesian beauty contest thing in situations like this, because there will be a sense in the back of these people's minds, except for the person that's so stricken and sort of taken by their emotions, that all of that second, third, fourth order processing's just like, fucked off out of the room. But there will be people that like, like, I bet they think it's me. How can I make sure that they don't think it's me? God, I'm so sad that this thing happened. I'm so traumatized from this thing. They think it's me. It's like just bouncing around. You go, okay, what's the. How do you get yourself. You're trying to be the normal that both guilty and innocent. Yeah, I'm trying to be the version of me that I think they would want to see if I wasn't guilty. And by doing that, I'm getting in the way of being the unencumbered version. It's the same as watching the standard person on stage. Stage. It's like I'm trying to be a stand up comic that isn't nervous and isn't bumbling through his lines.

[B]

Exactly.

[A]

Therefore I am. So I don't watch it.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, you're right. You go, I just, whatever that person is doing is not why I want to watch the person who feels control and, and, and is like, you know, confident, whatever, like at ease. Yeah, at ease. I want to see that. And it's true. What's funny is that like you with the like the Scott Peterson example, people you automatically go, right, but this person jumping through hoops because they're lying and they want you to not know that they're lying with the other one. What's so interesting is that he's telling the truth, but he's probably like, I hope you believe that I'm telling you because I am. And I don't know how to, because you, what you do is you think about times where you realize someone has thought, are you telling the truth? And you're trying to convey, no, I am. I'm telling you what really happened. And you can see doubt in their face. Like you can see that.

[A]

So you lean into this weird. There's a fascinating insight around guilt. Guilt. So this fucking broke my brain when I realized this. Our level of guilt is directly proportional to the likelihood that we think that we're going to get caught. So if you've ever noticed that you do a small indiscretion that you know that no one will find out about, you're way less guilty about it than if you do a larger indiscretion that you think you're going to get caught for. So it's like an early warning system that like, maybe you should behave in a slightly different way or maybe you should own up to this before you get found out about. But if you like, no one's around, it's late at night, you toss a Coke can out of the window. It's like, I don't feel, like, guilty. You toss a Coke can in front of a family that's walking past, and the stroll is about to go over the top of it. You're like, holy fuck. They know that the.

[B]

It's gonna sit with you. Yeah, yeah.

[A]

So guilt being a. In proximity to your likelihood of being caught is this early warning signal. I always think about that.

[B]

Is that like a scientifically studied thing?

[A]

It's a posited theory. I mean, you could observe it, but traditionally, psychology suggests that this would be one of the mechanisms by which it.

[B]

Makes a lot of sense.

[A]

I mean, we just see it in ourselves. Right. You can observe it within yourself. It doesn't necessarily need to be a law. It's just something that you can notice. But, yeah, I always think about, like, going back to times when I felt really, really guilty. I'm like, yeah, I was pretty sure that someone was going to find out about the thing that I did.

[B]

Yeah, that makes so much sense. And I want. What. But, like, people who commit these. Some of these heinous crimes, you know, they're. They're not going to feel guilt one way or the other. But it's interesting that, like, maybe somebody who doesn't have that personality disorder, that guilt shows itself if they start to feel the likelihood that they're going to get caught.

[A]

Well, think about what we were saying earlier on, that the lovable oaf type thing feels less threatening to us in a way. I wonder whether the person who makes killings out of rage feels less threatening to us than the cold, calculated killer. It should detach from it because you go, okay, well, if they're not in rage, if I don't enrage them, I'm sweet also.

[B]

We all. We all can relate.

[A]

We've all been enraged.

[B]

We've all been enraged. So that's a big factor there.

[A]

Very few of us relatable have been Dexter.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

With the scalpel and, you know.

[B]

Yeah. If some. When somebody. When you hear about somebody who emotionally has zero emotion about. About going in and. And tying up and cutting somebody open, that's not. You're not like, yeah, I've been there, man. Like, it's. It's a totally different thing. So that. That. That person, I think, is definitely the more terrifying one.

[A]

What have you got coming up next? What can people expect from you?

[B]

Well, I'm on tour, so I've been. I've been on tour, and it will continue through the rest of this year. I have A. A series that I don't know if I might can even announce it yet. I can sort of, yeah, loosely. It's coming in the spring.

[A]

Something will happen over the next few months.

[B]

You'll see something in the spring. I'll. I'll shoot something else later this year and I'll tell you about it later.

[A]

Are you part of the CIA now? Are you part of Trump's cabinet?

[B]

You know what's so funny is like they always have these like don't say a thing. And then you're like okay. And then when you do you're like, nobody cares, dude.

[A]

Like, yeah, but yeah, stuff is coming soon.

[B]

Stuff is coming soon and more stuff will come later. And I also have a few other stuffs that'll I'll do later in the year.

[A]

Dude, what a sign off. It's awesome to meet you. I'm looking forward to bringing you back on.

[B]

Thanks so much. Thanks for having me, man.

[A]

Appreciate you. If you're wanting to read more, you probably want some good books to read that are going to be easy and enjoyable and not bore you and make you feel despondent at the fact that you can only get through half a page without bowing out. And that is why I made the Modern Wisdom Reading list, a list of 100 of the best books, the most interesting, impactful and entertaining that I've ever found. Fiction and non fiction, real life stories. And there's a description about why I like it and there's links to go and buy it. And it's completely free. You can get it right now by going to ChrisWillX.com books that's ChrisWillX.com books.