Modern Wisdom Episode #974: Joe Folley on Existential Philosophy, Nietzsche, Suffering & Self-Awareness

Host: Chris Williamson
Guest: Joe Folley
Release Date: July 31, 2025
Duration: Approximately 85 minutes

1. Introduction to Nietzsche and Human Psychology (00:00 - 07:03)

Joe Folley initiates the discussion by exploring Friedrich Nietzsche's naturalistic view of humanity, emphasizing how Nietzsche's ideas align with modern empirical research in psychology. He highlights Nietzsche's influence on early psychologists like Freud and Jung, noting that while Nietzsche wasn't an evolutionary psychologist, his perspectives offer valuable insights into human behavior.

Joe Folley [00:25]:
"Nietzsche conceives of the mind as basically a collection of drives, or the will as basically a collection of drives... We all have our mind just as a series of drives."

Folley contrasts Nietzsche's fragmented view of the human will with earlier notions of a single governing "little man," illustrating how this chaotic interplay of drives influences both historical and contemporary psychological theories.

2. The Allure of Existential Philosophy (07:03 - 11:10)

Chris Williamson probes the attractiveness of existential philosophy, questioning why it resonates deeply with many despite its abstract and often challenging nature.

Chris Williamson [07:03]:
"Why is it that existential philosophy is so alluring? ... it seems to be very attractive, very seductive, very alluring to a lot of people, very life-changing to a lot of people."

Folley attributes this allure to the coherence between abstract philosophical ideas and the tangible, everyday struggles people face. He uses Dostoevsky's Notes from Underground as an example, demonstrating how profound psychological insights become relatable through narrative, making complex philosophical concepts more accessible and emotionally impactful.

Joe Folley [09:15]:
"There is something about reading something like Notes from Underground that hammers home in a way that is truly emotionally unforgettable."

3. Nietzsche’s Critique of Compassion and Resentment (11:10 - 36:22)

Folley delves deeper into Nietzsche's critique of Christian morality, particularly focusing on the concepts of resentment (ressentiment) and compassion. He explains Nietzsche's argument that Christian compassion stems from a powerless populace's attempt to regain a sense of power through moral values that emphasize suffering and pity.

Joe Folley [15:57]:
"For Nietzsche, agency or something like that. These people... define a morality whereby people would have to take pity upon them."

Chris Williamson adds an evolutionary psychology perspective, likening sympathy to investment advice, suggesting that compassion can be a strategic tool for social cohesion and reciprocity.

Chris Williamson [11:10]:
"Sympathy is investment advice... It's pro-social... a softness Caringness toward this person."

Folley also discusses Nietzsche's contempt for perceived weakness, clarifying that despite Nietzsche's personal struggles, his philosophy emphasizes overcoming resistance as essential for personal fulfillment and preventing societal decay into complacency.

Joe Folley [28:47]:
"One of Nietzsche's primary ideas is the will to power... overcoming resistance is what makes something meaningful."

4. The Ubermensch and the Creation of Meaning (37:28 - 38:59)

The conversation shifts to Nietzsche's concept of the Übermensch (Overman), a figure embodying the ability to create personal values in a world devoid of inherent meaning.

Joe Folley [37:28]:
"The Übermensch is someone strong enough to make life seem meaningful and create values upon recognizing that there is no God."

Folley explains that the Übermensch evolves in Nietzsche's later works, culminating in the concept of Dionysian wisdom, which embraces and celebrates life's inherent chaos and suffering.

5. Existential Philosophy vs. Fictional Narratives (39:03 - 47:47)

Folley contrasts philosophical writings with psychological novels, asserting that fiction like Dostoevsky's works provides deeper emotional engagement and personal resonance compared to abstract philosophical texts.

Joe Folley [42:07]:
"Notes from Underground... allows you to... feel the lesson in a way that sinks down to the bones."

He argues that novels can present philosophical ideas through relatable characters and emotionally charged narratives, making profound lessons more memorable and impactful.

6. The Danger of Hyper-Consciousness (48:00 - 50:58)

The discussion turns to hyper-consciousness, a state of excessive self-awareness that can lead to paralysis and inaction, as depicted in Dostoevsky's Notes from Underground.

Joe Folley [48:28]:
"The underground man suffers from the disease of hyper-consciousness... he can't act naturally."

Folley connects this concept to real-life experiences of overthinking and self-referential thinking, highlighting the challenges it poses to authentic living and decision-making.

7. Personal Reflections on Existentialism and Depression (55:31 - 84:33)

Folley shares personal insights, suggesting that existential philosophy often mirrors the philosophers' own struggles, such as depression and chronic pain. He emphasizes the value of these philosophies for individuals facing similar challenges, as they provide frameworks to cope with suffering and find meaning.

Joe Folley [55:31]:
"For me, the value in reading Nietzsche isn't necessarily because I think his view on the world is all that correct... it's seeing how he copes with similar struggles."

He also critiques the one-size-fits-all nature of popular advice, advocating for personalized approaches to philosophical and psychological guidance, much like tailored training programs in fitness.

Joe Folley [78:34]:
"Philosophical discussions can quickly go into territory that is so abstract that I don't think anyone could plausibly give a shit."

8. Balancing Cognitive and Emotional Approaches to Meaning (73:13 - 84:46)

Folley and Williamson explore the tension between cognitive understanding and emotional resonance in grappling with life's meaning. They discuss how narrative forms, especially fiction, bridge this gap by engaging both the mind and emotions, making philosophical lessons more enduring.

Joe Folley [76:09]:
"Meaning is at least partly extra cognitive... it's not merely cognition."

9. Conclusion and Final Thoughts (84:46 - End)

As the episode wraps up, both Folley and Williamson emphasize the importance of integrating philosophical insights with personal experiences and emotions. Folley underscores the significance of self-awareness and the individualized nature of deriving meaning from life.

Joe Folley [84:46]:
"I'm like, I know I go to the gym as a kind of hobby... you've got to really find something that works for you."

Chris Williamson encourages listeners to explore diverse philosophical and fictional works to discover what resonates personally, highlighting the value of tailored personal growth over universalized advice.

Notable Quotes with Timestamps:

• Joe Folley [00:25]:
  "Nietzsche conceives of the mind as basically a collection of drives, or the will as basically a collection of drives..."

• Chris Williamson [07:03]:
  "Why is it that existential philosophy is so alluring? ... it seems to be very attractive, very seductive, very alluring to a lot of people, very life-changing to a lot of people."

• Joe Folley [15:57]:
  "For Nietzsche, agency or something like that. These people... define a morality whereby people would have to take pity upon them."

• Joe Folley [28:47]:
  "One of Nietzsche's primary ideas is the will to power... overcoming resistance is what makes something meaningful."

• Joe Folley [37:28]:
  "The Übermensch is someone strong enough to make life seem meaningful and create values upon recognizing that there is no God."

• Joe Folley [42:07]:
  "Notes from Underground... allows you to... feel the lesson in a way that sinks down to the bones."

• Joe Folley [48:28]:
  "The underground man suffers from the disease of hyper-consciousness... he can't act naturally."

• Joe Folley [55:31]:
  "For me, the value in reading Nietzsche isn't necessarily because I think his view on the world is all that correct... it's seeing how he copes with similar struggles."

• Joe Folley [76:09]:
  "Meaning is at least partly extra cognitive... it's not merely cognition."

Key Themes and Insights:

1. Nietzsche's Influence on Psychology:
   Nietzsche's fragmented view of the human will as a collection of drives has significantly influenced modern psychological theories, emphasizing the complexity of human motivation and behavior.

2. Existential Philosophy's Appeal:
   The blend of abstract philosophical ideas with relatable, everyday struggles makes existential philosophy deeply resonant and life-changing for many individuals.

3. Critique of Compassion and Resentment:
   Nietzsche's analysis of Christian morality as stemming from resentment offers a provocative perspective on the roots of compassion and pity, challenging conventional moral frameworks.

4. The Übermensch as a Creator of Meaning:
   Nietzsche's concept of the Übermensch embodies the potential to create personal values and meaning in a meaningless world, highlighting the importance of strength and resilience.

5. Value of Fictional Narratives:
   Psychological novels like Dostoevsky's works provide profound emotional engagement, making philosophical lessons more memorable and personally applicable than abstract texts.

6. Dangers of Hyper-Consciousness:
   Excessive self-awareness can lead to paralysis and inaction, demonstrating the complex interplay between cognition and behavior in human psychology.

7. Personal Struggles and Philosophical Insights:
   Existential philosophies often mirror the personal struggles of their authors, offering valuable coping mechanisms for individuals facing similar challenges.

8. Balancing Cognitive and Emotional Approaches:
   Integrating cognitive understanding with emotional resonance is crucial for deriving meaningful and enduring insights from philosophical explorations.

9. Individualized Approaches to Meaning:
   Personalized philosophical and psychological guidance, tailored to individual experiences and emotions, is more effective than universalized advice.

Conclusion

Episode #974 of Modern Wisdom with Joe Folley offers a deep dive into existential philosophy, exploring Nietzsche's profound influence on psychology, the enduring allure of existentialism, and the intricate balance between cognitive understanding and emotional resonance in finding life's meaning. Through relatable examples and personal reflections, Folley elucidates complex philosophical concepts, making them accessible and applicable to everyday life. The conversation underscores the value of integrating philosophical insights with personal experiences, advocating for individualized approaches to personal growth and meaning-making.

For listeners seeking to explore these themes further, engaging with both philosophical texts and narrative fiction can provide a comprehensive understanding and deeper emotional connection to the existential questions that shape human existence.