Modern Wisdom Podcast #982: Jesse Michels — UFOs, Aliens, Antigravity & Government Secrets

Host: Chris Williamson
Guest: Jesse Michels
Date: August 18, 2025

Episode Overview

In this wide-ranging conversation, Chris Williamson interviews Jesse Michels about the evolving landscape of UFO research, antigravity technology, and government secrecy. The two dissect the changing face of ufology, the stubborn stigma in mainstream science, and how anomalies at the edge of physics may point toward paradigm shifts. Michels weaves UFO lore into hard science and government whistleblowing, all while reflecting on the interplay between consciousness, technology, and what it means to seek the truth outside the priestly citadel of science.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Why Interest in UFOs Is “Maladaptive”

• Maslow’s Hierarchy and Escapism (00:00–01:36):
  • Jesse argues that “An interest with UFOs is maladaptive to most people” because it distracts from more basic life priorities.
  • Quote [Jesse, 01:11]:
    “A lot of people focus on it as a circumvention of reality itself. It's an escape mechanism. ... For those people, they should probably just focus on the core issue. If they have a marital problem... go focus on that.”
• Chris connects this to people neglecting foundational needs while chasing existential answers.

2. The Changing Demographics of UFO Enthusiasts

• From Woo to Whistleblowers (01:36–03:59):
  • Jesse describes the old stereotype: “a lot of crystal healers from the Southwest.”
  • The landscape is shifting: scientists, politicians (mention of Tulsi Gabbard), and Silicon Valley figures are now openly engaged.
  • Quote [Jesse, 03:48]:
    “That’s destigmatized it for a lot of people. You’re starting to see high agency... just average people start to get into the topic.”

3. UFO vs. UAP Nomenclature & Potential Psyops

• Intentional Obfuscation? (03:59–05:59):
  • Jesse dislikes the governmental pivot to “UAP (Unidentified Aerial Phenomena),” preferring UFO for specificity.
  • He worries the new label may muddy the waters and allow for misdirection.
  • Quote [Jesse, 04:09]:
    “A lot of people are worried about this whole thing being a psyop... I like the classic just UFO. This was in the zeitgeist... and let’s just go back to that.”

4. The Evidence for UFOs: A Historical & Contemporary Survey

• Presidents, Pilots, and Massive Databases (06:08–12:03):
  • Across history, numerous presidents (Carter, Trump, Obama) have danced around UFO disclosures, often citing “national security.”
  • Modern evidence includes Navy pilot sightings (Commander David Fravor’s “Tic Tac” experience), videos released by the Pentagon, and comprehensive whistleblower claims (David Grusch).
  • Notable Moment [Jesse, 06:08]:
    “UFOs go way beyond the threshold of what you’d need evidence-wise to accept this as a worthy field of inquiry if it were any other field.”
  • Large databases (National UFO Reporting Center) and focused research (e.g., Robert Hastings’ UFOs and Nukes) catalog thousands of credible reports, often with highly vetted witnesses.
  • Chris [10:42]:
    “Spreadsheet masquerades as a book.”

5. Where Is the Tangible Evidence? Secrecy, Materials, and Probabilities

• Physical Proof and Government Secrecy (12:03–17:03):
  • Jesse discusses why, despite huge numbers of credible reports, crash materials, and sensor data (like FLIR), we don’t have public access to “a saucer unveiled at a hangar” (13:58).
  • Labs like Gary Nolan’s at Stanford analyze anomalous crash materials with non-terrestrial isotope ratios.
  • Government secrecy is attributed to national security and the desire for geopolitical advantage, drawing parallels with historic classified projects (e.g., B2 bomber).
  • Quote [Jesse, 14:03]:
    “You have to look at a fact pattern: is this anomalous enough to say that it’s not from here?”
• Stigma and Epistemic Humility:
  • Jesse frames the UFO debate in Bayesian (probabilistic) terms and stresses the need for humility given secrecy and layered government priorities.

6. Is the UFO Phenomenon a “Psyop”?

• Double Keeps: Real and Deceptive (17:03–22:33):
  • Jesse offers a nuanced take: “The fact that something is real and it’s a psyop are positive sum, not negative sum.”
  • The idea that the sheer scale of global witness coordination would be required to run a successful psyop is less likely than genuine phenomena.
  • Quote [Jesse, 22:28]:
    “Occam’s Razor almost becomes that we’re not alone in the universe.”

7. Political Will and the Deep State Wall

• Can Political Leaders Break Through? (22:33–27:46):
  • Tulsi Gabbard’s earnest interest as DNI is contrasted with the entrenched “deep state” and the inertia that hampers progress, referencing the arc of JFK and Epstein investigations.
  • Jesse is pessimistic about genuine government disclosure without outsider disruption (e.g., a whistleblower like Grusch joining the team).

8. Globality: It's Not Just an American Thing

• International Incidents (27:46–29:26):
  • Investigative agencies exist in France, Russia, Japan, and Argentina; there are cross-cultural nuclear connections and global patterns of sightings despite varying levels of government openness.

9. Why Nuclear Sites? The "Prime Directive" Hypothesis

• Homeostasis and Human Risk (29:26–32:00):
  • UFOs’ attention to nuclear sites is theorized as an analog to the “Prime Directive” in Star Trek; small interventions to prevent catastrophic civilization self-destruction.
  • Chris wonders why this intelligence isn’t intervening in AI/biotech existential risks, leading to speculative reflections on what NHIs (“non-human intelligences”) may really want.

10. Government Obfuscation: Underground Bases, DOE, and Stigma

• Compartmentalization and Secret Facilities (46:56–55:13):
  • Jesse details how the Department of Energy inherited secrecy protocols from the Manhattan Project, and how “special nuclear material” becomes instantly classified.
  • Personal stories and books (e.g. Richard Sauter’s work on underground bases) provide color to the landscape of covert facilities (Area 51, Kirtland, Los Alamos), some of which Jesse has been warned not to talk about.

11. Antigravity: Townsend Brown and the Hidden Science Revolution

• Experimental Unification (60:31–81:13):
  • Jesse presents the hypothesis that Thomas Townsend Brown’s mid-century capacitor experiments may have stumbled on a way to unify electromagnetism and gravity, prompting secret research in aerospace.
  • He details why the experiment lacks replication — expensive vacuum chambers, deliberate debunkings, and institutional inertia.
  • Quote [Jesse, 70:36]:
    “If you could come up with some sort of propulsion that married electromagnetism and gravity ... that would be a massive deal.”
  • The current state of theoretical physics is disparaged as stagnant and self-cannibalizing; experimentalists and renegade theorists have historically driven true paradigm shifts.

12. The Role of Stigma and Scientific Conformity

• Heretics, Skeptics, and the Structure of Scientific Revolutions (81:13–96:42):
  • The episode explores why mainstream science resists maverick ideas, referencing Kuhn’s work, concept creep in skepticism, and the need for the “ability to play gracefully with ideas.”
  • Notable Quote [Jesse, 87:43]:
    “History is moved forward by the heretics. If you can’t name a present heretic ... you’re probably not being independent thinking enough.”
  • Chris remarks on the cultural difference between American optimism and British skepticism as it applies to innovation and belief.

13. Big Picture: Theoretical Limits of Elon Musk's Rocketry and the AI Futures Psyop

• Why Elon's Mars Vision Falls Short (97:18–104:12):
  • Jesse praises Musk’s real achievements, but argues that chemical combustion simply can’t support true interstellar travel.
  • The focus on mass ejection propulsion is compared to outdated models, suggesting instead a need for new science — perhaps along the lines of antigravity or EM/gravity unification.
  • On AI existential risk: Jesse is skeptical of AGI “takeoff” stories, arguing the real danger lies in gradual “amputation” of human abilities and encroaching technocracy.

14. Consciousness as the Third Frontier

• Remote Viewing, Telepathy, and Mind-Matter Interaction (113:22–129:29):
  • Jesse frames consciousness as the third leg of unexplained phenomena — alongside antigravity and UFOs — drawing on parapsychological studies, CIA remote viewing, and the remarkable “Telepathy Tapes.”
  • Statistical evidence from Princeton and others suggests measurable effects of mind on matter, despite persistent stigma and lack of mainstream acceptance.
  • Quote [Jesse, 121:29]:
    “If this methodology and this level of skepticism and scrutiny were applied to any other field of science, it would be accepted immediately. ... Because of the stigma, this field is not accepted.”

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Disclosure and Secrecy:
  “It would be a pain in the ass for [someone like Tulsi] to start to tackle this issue without the help of somebody like a David Grusch. And so I think it’s very low on the priority list.” [Jesse, 23:22]

• On Antigravity and Institutional Gatekeeping:
  “They have like this guy with serious credentials...says it creates Newtons or millinewtons of thrust, which in space is a very big deal. If you create any thrust, again theoretically, you are breaking the standard model.” [Jesse, 79:12]

• On Stigma in Science:
  “You don’t need another skeptic. ... Science is only useful insofar as it has predictive value and you can build cool shit with it.” [Jesse, 83:59]

• On the Role of Heretics:
  “If you can’t name a present heretic that you where you believe in some of their opinions, then you’re probably in some sense on the wrong side of history.” [Jesse, 82:38]

• On the Primacy of Consciousness:
  “All of these people got a statistically significant standard deviation with this experiment [random event generators].” [Jesse, 128:14]

• On Probabilities and Humility:
  “I think you have to think in probabilities all the way down. ... Until, like, in Area 51, we have a saucer that you can unveil, I can’t say in good faith that for sure we have some sort of saucer that we can unveil.” [Jesse, 108:46]

Timestamps of Important Segments

• 00:00 – 01:36 — Discussion of UFO interest as escapism and a maladaptive focus
• 03:48 – 05:59 — Shift in the UFO community and nomenclature debate: UFO vs. UAP
• 06:08 – 12:03 — Evidence for UFOs: history, pilot accounts, whistleblowers, and databases
• 14:03 – 17:03 — Why there isn’t physical, public evidence: secrecy, probabilistic thinking
• 17:03 – 22:33 — Is it all a psyop? The challenge of coordinating global deception
• 29:26 – 32:00 — Hypotheses on UFOs’ fixation on nuclear sites
• 46:58 – 55:13 — DOE's role in secrecy; underground bases and personal anecdotes
• 60:31 – 81:13 — Townsend Brown’s antigravity, replication challenges, and state of physics
• 87:43 – 96:42 — Stigma, skepticism, and the importance of heretics in scientific culture
• 97:18 – 104:12 — Why standard rocketry falls short for interstellar travel; real and imagined AI risks
• 113:22 – 129:29 — The primacy of consciousness: parapsychology, remote viewing, and statistical evidence of mind-matter interaction

Conclusion

The episode is a tour de force through UFOlogy, hidden science, and the doors of consciousness. Jesse Michels urges open-mindedness, epistemic humility, and creative theorizing—advocating genuinely for paradigm shifts in both science and the public imagination. Chris Williamson’s probing fosters a lively yet respectful debate on the limits of science, the value of anomalies, and what secret truths may lurk just out of view.

Further exploration:

• Jesse Michels on YouTube, Spotify, Instagram
• Modern Wisdom reading list at ChrisWillX.com/books

(End of episode summary.)