Modern Wisdom Episode #985
Dr David Spiegel - Hypnosis, Brain Hacking, & Mental Mastery
Date: August 25, 2025
Host: Chris Williamson
Guest: Dr. David Spiegel (Professor, Stanford; hypnosis researcher, creator of Reveri app)
Episode Overview
This episode dives deep into the science, misconceptions, and transformative potential of hypnosis. Dr. David Spiegel, a leading psychiatrist and hypnosis researcher, explains the neurobiology of hypnosis, its evolutionary roots, practical applications for pain and stress management, its overlap with other mind-body modalities, and why hypnosis has remained a misunderstood or sidelined intervention despite strong evidence. The conversation is accompanied by illustrative anecdotes, practical techniques, and a candid discussion on the limits and power of hypnotic responsiveness.
Key Discussion Points
1. Misconceptions & The Reality of Hypnosis
- Many people mistakenly think hypnosis involves a loss of control, or see it as either dangerous or useless, influenced especially by stage acts.
- Spiegel: "Hypnosis is a way of teaching people how to enhance control of mind and body." (00:17)
- Stage hypnosis shows people being suggestible (e.g., football coach dancing), but what’s actually happening is letting go of entrenched self-assumptions and testing new behaviors.
2. What Happens in the Brain During Hypnosis
- Hypnosis involves measurable brain changes observable on fMRI:
- Reduced activity in dorsal anterior cingulate (Salience Network, the "alarm system"): Allows deeper absorption and reduced distractibility/anxiety.
- Increased connectivity between dorsolateral prefrontal cortex and the insula: Enhances mind-body connection and interoception.
- Decreased connectivity between prefrontal cortex and posterior cingulate (Default Mode Network): Reduces self-referential rumination, making it easier to "try out being different".
- Spiegel: "Hypnosis is a kind of automatic reduction in stress you can see in people’s brains." (02:38)
- Chris: "It sounds an awful lot like shaking an Etch A Sketch... we got a bit of a blank slate." (05:47)
3. The Hypnotic Process: Induction, Responsiveness, and Everyday Trancing
- Scientific hypnosis induction can be rapid and simple for responsive individuals.
- "Look up, close your eyes, deep breath, let your body float, and let one hand float up like a balloon..." (06:49)
- All hypnosis is self-hypnosis—it's activating latent mental capacities akin to "an unused app on your phone".
- Everyday examples include getting lost in a movie, music, or social engagement—what Spiegel calls “believed-in imagination.” (07:46)
4. Evolutionary Purpose and Adaptive Functions
- Hypnosis has evolved for two main reasons:
- Positive: Facilitates deep social connection (e.g., in rituals, collective effervescence, falling in love).
- Protective: Enables modulation of fear, pain, and stress—a survival advantage for an otherwise physically vulnerable species (e.g., "freezing" from pain to avoid predators).
- Spiegel: "This capacity we have in hypnosis... has survival value that allowed us to be where we are." (11:16)
5. Emotional Regulation, Stress, and Flow
- Hypnosis builds the capacity to "step into" mental states—regulating fear or pain adaptively (Chris’s story of the elephant charge, 14:40–20:09).
- Elevated focus and altered perception in moments of acute threat reflect “naturalistic hypnosis.”
- Hypnosis shares aspects with meditation and flow but is distinct: more goal-directed and action-engaged than meditation, more process-focused than outcome-focused performance.
- Spiegel: "People who are hypnotizable in a hypnotic state tend to feel more like they’re in a flow state." (24:44)
6. Who Is Hypnotizable and Why?
- Hypnotizability is a stable trait, typically set by early adulthood (age 21); children are broadly more hypnotizable.
- 25-year retests show hypnotizability rivaling IQ stability (r = 0.7).
- High hypnotizables can produce dramatic changes (e.g., pain vanishing); mid-range people benefit but often via negotiation; lows require more cognitive behavioral approaches.
- Genetics: The catechol-O-methyltransferase (COMT) gene, involved in dopamine metabolism, is linked to hypnotizability. Intermediate dopamine metabolism (Val/Met polymorphism) predicts greater hypnotizability.
- Chris: "I've got slow dopamine clearance... can make you more mentally rigid or over-focused under pressure." (36:11)
7. Nurture, Trauma, and Hypnotizability
- Childhood imaginative experiences increase hypnotizability.
- Traumatic dissociation (esp. childhood abuse) can also create high hypnotic capacity by necessity ("You got my body, but you haven’t got me."). (37:42)
8. Increasing Hypnotizability: Is It Possible?
- Generally, not trainable, but research shows transcranial magnetic stimulation (TMS) can temporarily boost it.
- Most people, regardless of score, benefit from hypnosis approaches (pain/stress reduction) even if not “highs”.
9. Self-Hypnosis, Apps & Efficacy
- Spiegel’s Reveri app delivers self-hypnosis for pain, sleep, stress, smoking cessation, and more. Studies show:
- One session can help 1 in 4 smokers quit; 4 in 5 get some benefit.
- Digital delivery is as effective as in-person for certain interventions.
- Focus is on "what you're for, not what you're against" (e.g., respect and protect your body) for sustained behavioral change.
10. Ethics, Social Influence, and Loss of Control Anxiety
- Concerns about “mind control” are misplaced; the ability to influence people is a broader social phenomenon (see: news, propaganda, peer pressure), not hypnosis-specific.
- Notable: People who did not want to quit smoking still quit after trying hypnosis (46:21).
- Hypnosis is "an enhancement of agency, not a loss of it" (89:29).
11. Pain, Mind-Body Control, and Clinical Outcomes
- Numerous cases: hypnosis for surgical pain, trauma, and chronic pain.
- Randomized trials: hypnosis yields greater pain reduction (1/10 vs 5/10), anxiety relief, halved opioid use, fewer complications, and efficiency in invasive procedures (63:02).
- The brain is the main “filter” deciding what to attend to/suppress (see "strain and pain lies mainly in the brain," 59:07).
12. Notable Case Studies
- Hypnosis helping patients rapidly reframe trauma, release shame, or recover from debilitating PTSD.
- Example: Woman abused at 12, overcoming decades-long depression through self-compassion induced under hypnosis (76:24).
- Example: Vietnam veteran, grieved lost adopted child, reframed grief through reliving memories and finding self-compassion under hypnosis (79:30).
13. Overlap with Other Modalities
- Psychedelics (psilocybin, MDMA), meditation, ACT (acceptance and commitment therapy) all share overlap but hypnosis is unique for its rapid reprogramming/action.
- Breathwork (e.g., cyclic sighing, box breathing) pairs excellently with hypnosis; both regulate the nervous system and interoception. (67:56–70:44)
14. Why Isn't Hypnosis Mainstream Yet?
- Misunderstandings, lack of pharma-driven lobbying, medical culture that prefers drugs/devices/interventions over mind-based modalities.
- Hypnosis, despite being well-evidenced (250+ years), "gets no respect"—Rodney Dangerfield syndrome.
- Spiegel: "Big Pharma... spends more on advertising than on drug development. But people have trouble believing that just talking to someone can make a real change in their life." (90:36, 91:57)
Memorable Quotes & Moments
-
On the core misconception:
"Hypnosis is a way of teaching people how to enhance control of mind and body."
— Dr. David Spiegel (00:17) -
On mental blank slate:
"It sounds an awful lot like shaking an Etch A Sketch... we got a little bit of a blank slate here."
— Chris Williamson (05:47) -
On neural mechanisms:
“So that combination—better mind body control, reduced salience activation, and suppression of the part of your brain that decides who you should be and what you should be—is what helps you do so much in hypnosis.”
— Dr. David Spiegel (04:39) -
On hypnotizability stability:
“The test retest was .7 — that's as high as IQ in a 25-year interval; it does not change much.”
— Dr. David Spiegel (26:07) -
On trauma and hypnotizability:
“You got my body, but you haven’t got me.”
— Dr. David Spiegel (37:41) -
On successful digital hypnosis:
"We got one out of four stop smoking with the app. ... My favorite feedback: 'This is some kind of crazy ass voodoo shit. And I mean that in a good way.’"
— Dr. David Spiegel (45:16) -
On pain perception:
"The strain and pain lies mainly in the brain, if you'll forgive a British analogy."
— Dr. David Spiegel (59:07) -
On self-compassion in trauma recovery:
“When you have them use their well developed parental skills on themselves... 'Is this her fault?' And she started to cry harder...I’m stroking her hair..."
— Dr. David Spiegel (76:24) -
On agency:
“People fear hypnosis as a loss of agency, but it’s an enhancement of agency."
— Dr. David Spiegel (89:29)
Timestamps for Key Segments
| Timestamp | Segment | |-------------|---------------------------------------------------------| | 00:00–04:39 | Misunderstandings; Stage hypnosis vs. clinical hypnosis | | 01:19–05:14 | fMRI brain changes in hypnosis | | 06:00–08:42 | Simple induction & everyday hypnosis | | 09:51–12:15 | Evolutionary perspective | | 14:40–20:09 | Chris’s elephant story, acute stress & focus | | 24:44–25:24 | Hypnosis vs meditation vs flow | | 25:24–30:40 | Hypnotizability: who, why, stability, cases | | 34:04–36:24 | Genetics: COMT gene & dopamine | | 37:05–37:58 | Upbringing & abuse influencing hypnotizability | | 39:08–41:28 | Can you learn to be hypnotizable? (TMS study) | | 43:32–45:16 | Smoking cessation: in-person & app-based | | 59:07–62:47 | Pain perception and hypnotic analgesia RCTs | | 70:44–74:45 | Breathwork and hypnosis synergy | | 76:24–81:36 | Trauma, case studies & compassion in hypnosis | | 85:18–87:13 | Comparison to psychedelics and acceptance | | 90:36–92:42 | Why hypnosis is overlooked in mainstream medicine |
Additional Insights
- Assessment of Hypnotizability: Quick induction testing hand levitation, dissociation, and feeling of involuntariness (29:00–30:09).
- Population Outcomes: 20% improvement in stress responses with the Reveri app; 80% get some benefit per session (65:16).
- Real-World Applicability: Hypnosis is presented as a tool for self-regulation with immediate and potentially lasting effects—especially for pain, stress, and insomnia.
- Safety & Accessibility: Spiegel notes that hypnosis has "never killed anybody in 250 years," contrasting opioid risk, and is highly scalable for public health.
Actionable Takeaways
- Hypnosis is a rapid, self-accessible tool for mind-body control—especially for pain, stress, and behavior change.
- Responsiveness is in part genetic, in part shaped by childhood experience, and mostly stable, but most adults can benefit.
- Breathwork, self-compassion, and cognitive flexibility enhance or work synergistically with hypnosis.
- The Reveri app: available for guided self-hypnosis interventions (www.reveri.com).
- Clinical hypnosis is underutilized partly due to cultural misunderstanding and lack of medical-industrial support.
Closing Sentiment
Chris Williamson praises Dr. Spiegel’s approachable genius and the practical power of hypnosis for self-mastery.
Chris: "I feel even if we haven’t done the hypnosis today, I’m certainly feeling much more regulated." (92:42)
For hypnosis resources, see: