Modern Wisdom #988: Dr. Rahul Jandial – Brain Surgeon: Inside The Dreaming Brain

Host: Chris Williamson
Guest: Dr. Rahul Jandial, Neurosurgeon, Professor, Author
Date: September 1, 2025

Episode Overview

In this episode, Chris Williamson delves deep into the mysteries of the dreaming brain with Dr. Rahul Jandial, a world-renowned brain surgeon and neuroscientist. They explore what happens inside our brains when we sleep and dream, why dreams are bizarre yet universal, what we’ve learned from brain injuries and surgeries, how intuition and 'liminal' states shape human experience, and the profound insights Dr. Jandial has gleaned from working with both the living and the dying. The conversation seamlessly blends hard neuroscience with rich stories from the front lines of medicine and human experience.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

The Art and Finesse of Brain Surgery

• Surgery as Art, Not Just Science

  • Dr. Jandial compares fine surgical technique to ballet or sculpting, noting that true expertise involves finesse and intuition, not just memorizing steps.
  • “It’s sculpting, it’s art. There’s a finesse to it…. It’s more talent than smarts.” (Dr. Jandial, 01:06)

• Instrument Design & Left-Handedness

  • Discussion of specific surgical tools for left-handed surgeons.
  • Insights on minor real-world ergonomic adaptations that can make a major difference for surgeons.

Liminal States: Thresholds in Body and Brain

• Defining 'Liminal' States

  • Jandial describes liminal states as transition periods that are neither fully one thing nor another (e.g., falling asleep, waking up, the boundary between salt and fresh water while diving).
  • Highlights the importance of these “in-between” moments both in nature and human cognition.
  • “The transition…at chemical, psychological, it doesn’t happen in a millisecond. There’s a liminal state.” (Dr. Jandial, 03:04)

• Examples in the Human Mind

  • Sleep-wake transitions, lucid dreaming, narcolepsy, and sleep paralysis as natural liminal states.

Intuition, Evidence, and the Bounds of Science

• The Role of Intuition

  • Dr. Jandial cautions against both blind reliance on intuition and total dismissal of it.
  • Shares stories of medical intuition, love, and epiphanies—phenomena historically reported but only recently validated, like lucid dreaming.
  • “Don’t deny those insights. Don’t rely on them blindly…. But I’m fully ready to embrace intuition, hunch—those kind of things.” (Dr. Jandial, 05:30)

• Balancing Rationality and Openness

  • Chris reflects on how rational skepticism can sometimes be self-limiting and how he’s trying to trust his gut more.
  • “My brain has overruled my intuition. And I’m kind of trying to allow that to be tapped into a little bit more.” (Chris, 08:05)

The Function & Mystery of Dreams

• Has Freud Been Replaced?

  • Freud was vital for identifying dreams as brain-based, but neuroscience has since exploded our understanding.
  • Berger’s discovery of the EEG proved the brain remains electrically active during sleep—a foundational shift.

• What Is the Brain Doing When We Dream?

  • The dreaming brain is as electrically ‘hot’ as the waking brain—but utilizes different networks:
    • Executive Network (dorsolateral prefrontal cortex): logic, inhibition, decision-making.
    • Imagination Network & Limbic System: creativity, emotion, “wildness.”
  • Key Concept: In dreams, the executive network is suppressed, the imagination and emotion centers are liberated.
  • “We dream to maintain our emotional and creative complexity…so all those capacities are there for us for the next environmental event we’re not prepared for.” (Dr. Jandial, 13:43)

• Why Are Dreams So Emotional and Surreal?

  • Dream reports across time are universally low on calculation/maths—matching the suppressed executive network.
  • Universal dream motifs (falling, flying, teeth falling out) are ancient and cross-cultural, suggesting 'hardwired' dream themes.

Nightmares, Childhood, and Cognitive Development

• The Universal Arrival of Nightmares

  • Longitudinal studies show nightmares reliably emerge in children around ages 4-6.
  • Jandial’s big theory: nightmares help develop a sense of self/other and the "default mode network," essential for social navigation and boundary-setting.
  • “I think that nightmares create a sense of self versus other by having these harrowing, difficult experiences.” (Dr. Jandial, 28:29)

• Nightmares as Developmental Milestone

  • “Nightmares always arrive in children, healthy children, unhealthy children.” (Dr. Jandial, 28:16)
  • Most kids outgrow intense nightmares, but they serve a ‘cultivating’ role.

Should We Interpret Our Dreams?

• On the Value (and Limits) of Dream Analysis

  • Jandial is skeptical of universal dream interpretation (“the lady in a shawl”), arguing that dream symbols are highly individualized and change meaning over time.
  • “A bridge for me means very different things within the context of my own life. I don’t think a static symbol can reveal a dynamic mental life.” (Dr. Jandial, 41:43)

• Dream Recall as a Health Metric

  • Tracking nightmares—especially if they become frequent—can be useful indicator of psychological distress.
  • “That can be sort of a warning sign or a signal that maybe you’re not coping well.” (Dr. Jandial, 39:41)

Erotic Dreams and Evolutionary Psychology

• Universality of Erotic Dreams

  • Erotic dreams arise in everyone, often before one is sexually active; often include “infidelity” with familiar or taboo figures.
  • Cross-cultural, cross-historical phenomenon: “Healthy relationships have infidelity dreams, unhealthy relationships have infidelity [dreams].” (Dr. Jandial, 46:26)
  • Possible evolutionary function: simulating scenarios within the tribe; social/familiar figures are more common than strangers.

• Boundaries of Dream Content

  • Certain patterns are universal, but “dreams are not infinitely wild”—you rarely do math, for example.

Brain Networks and Creativity

• Imagination vs. Executive Function

  • Dr. Jandial explains how shifting between executive and imagination brain networks fuels both productive thought and creative insight.
  • “Everything in between is a dance between execution and idea.” (Dr. Jandial, 61:46)

• How to Liberate Creativity

  • Techniques include utilizing liminal states: the moments before sleep (Edison’s ‘falling key’), after waking, meditation, or engaging in low-effort tasks.
  • “Undirected thought is actually the thought you want…you can’t demand it, you have to cultivate it.” (Dr. Jandial, 68:36)

New Frontiers in Brain Health: Tech, Diet, and Coping

• Magnetic Stimulation and Mental Health

  • rTMS and other techniques can modulate specific networks, showing promise for OCD and depression.
  • True benefit comes from integrating tech, talk therapy, meds, and exercise.

• Diet, Lifestyle, and Cognitive Decline

  • “DNA is not destiny, especially when it comes to the brain in mind.” (Dr. Jandial, 95:12)
  • Five pillars for brain health:
    • Vascular health (keep arteries open: exercise, cholesterol meds)
    • Pescatarian/MIND diet (omega-3s for myelin/fatty fish, mostly plants)
    • Intermittent fasting (promotes cognitive flexibility)
    • Movement/verticality (simply standing more, walking)
    • Challenging thought/creativity (“think differently, think in ways you haven’t before.”)

On the Power and Limits of the Brain

• Common Myths
  • The brain is NOT a singular, homogeneous ‘muscle.’
  • More nuance needed: “Is it at the neuronal level? The network level?... The anatomical level?...the electricity level?...”
  • “The brain is not limitless, your mind is not limitless—but if you realize there are patterns and proclivities…to try to identify when somebody does it well, what are their coping strategies…”

Life, Near-Death, and Meaning

• Near-Death Experiences

  • Recent studies show that after the heart stops, the brain remains hyperactive for minutes, possibly explaining the vivid “film strip” life recollections in near-death experiences.
  • “Through science, we can have understanding that we might not…We might be able to explain why near-death experiences are a consistent perception…” (Dr. Jandial, 119:39)

• Lessons from the Dying

  • Working with terminal patients, Dr. Jandial sees consistent patterns: reconciliation, forgiveness, valuing time with loved ones.
  • Suggests we should ‘live now’ as though we were five years from life’s finish line, not just when faced with mortality.

Notable Quotes & Moments

• “Surgery is talent. It’s more talent than smarts.” (Dr. Jandial, 01:06)
• “The transition from one state to another…it doesn’t happen in a millisecond. There’s a liminal state.” (Dr. Jandial, 03:04)
• “Don’t deny those insights. Don’t rely on them blindly…. But I’m fully ready to embrace intuition, hunch—those kind of things.” (Dr. Jandial, 05:30)
• “Why we dream has to be explained with what is going on with the dreaming brain.” (Dr. Jandial, 13:43)
• “Nightmares create a sense of self versus other by having these harrowing, difficult experiences.” (Dr. Jandial, 28:29)
• “A bridge for me means very different things within the context of my own life. I don’t think a static symbol can reveal a dynamic mental life.” (Dr. Jandial, 41:43)
• “DNA is not destiny, especially when it comes to the brain in mind.” (Dr. Jandial, 95:12)
• “You don’t develop capacity to deal with things while you’re dealing with things. It’s developed in advance and revealed during.” (Chris, 111:57)
• “If you feel like you’re drowning or struggling…what do I do right now?” (Dr. Jandial, 114:22)

Timestamps for Important Segments

• Liminal State Explanation: [03:04]
• On Intuition vs. Evidence: [05:30]
• Brain Networks in Dreaming: [13:43]
• Universal Nightmares in Childhood: [28:29]
• Value of Dream Recall: [39:41]
• The Fallacy of Universal Dream Interpretation: [41:43]
• Erotic Dream Patterns: [46:26]
• Creativity, Liminal States & How to Cultivate Them: [68:36]
• Myths About the Brain: [86:26]
• Lifestyle, Diet, and Cognitive Decline: [95:12]
• Lessons from Near-Death and Terminal Care: [119:39], [120:58]

Final Thoughts

This rich, dynamic conversation brings together the rigor of neuroscience, the artistry of surgery, ancient and modern theories of mind, and deep human experience. Dr. Rahul Jandial leaves listeners with a sense of awe for the complexity of the dreaming mind, humility about what we don't know, some practical tools for brain health and creativity, and a call to prepare—mentally and emotionally—for life’s storms, not just its lulls.

For more, follow Dr. Jandial at City of Hope Cancer Center, and check out his latest book on dreams and the brain.