Modern Wisdom Ep. #995 - Lionel Page – Born to Lie: How Humans Deceive Ourselves & Others

Host: Chris Williamson
Guest: Lionel Page
Date: September 18, 2025

Overview

In this episode, Chris Williamson sits down with behavioral economist Lionel Page to explore the pervasiveness and evolutionary roots of human deception—not just towards others but, more importantly, towards ourselves. Drawing from psychological research, evolutionary theory, and game theory, they dissect why self-deception is so adaptive, how reasoning evolved as a social persuasion tool, and why communication, politics, and coalition-building are inherently fraught with both cooperation and strategic misdirection. If you’re interested in understanding why we tell ourselves flattering stories, why we crave belonging, and why democracy may not be about truth-seeking, this conversation is for you.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Purpose of Human Reasoning ([00:00]–[05:55])

Reason as a Social Tool: Lionel argues that human reasoning evolved less for solving practical or scientific problems, but mainly as a “lawyer’s” tool to convince others in social interactions.
Key Insight: “We are reasoning, but we are not reasoning like scientists to solve problems. We're reasoning like lawyers to convince other people.” (Lionel Page, [01:51])
Confirmation Bias by Design: Errors like confirmation bias are not bugs but features of this advocacy-oriented reasoning.
Inherited Solutions: Most practical “problem-solving” in life consists of using inherited, communal solutions, not figuring things out alone.

2. Self-Deception: Mechanisms and Evolution ([05:13]–[08:21])

Strategic Self-Deception: Overconfidence and inflated self-assessment offer social advantages but carry real risks.
Robert Trivers’ Theory: Self-deception boosts our ability to persuade others by shielding us from revealing cues of deception.
Poker Analogy: Like a poker player who believes in a weak hand, self-deceivers can bluff more effectively.

3. Everyday Self-Deception and Social Conflict ([08:21]–[13:15])

Universality: Self-deception is not a rare pathology but a universal, adaptive trait. Coupled with “rose-tinted glasses,” it explains why everyone sees themselves as doing more than their share in, e.g., household chores.
Victimhood as Strategy: Even self-perceptions of victimhood can be a form of self-deception, granting moral high ground and potential retribution in social games.

4. Differences Between Lying to Ourselves and Others ([13:15]–[15:07])

Plausible Deniability: Self-deception minimizes the risks of being caught in a lie and allows us to maintain higher social trust.
Quote: “It's not a lie if you believe it.” (Lionel citing Seinfeld, [13:54])

5. Reputation and Trustworthiness ([15:07]–[18:29])

Reputation as Social Currency: Repeated interactions and reputation are what keep us honest and cooperative.
Insight: “Reputation is what makes us comply with the rules of cooperating now. Because if we don't, then our record is tainted and then all those people will know that...” (Lionel, [17:49])

6. Complexity in Human Communication ([19:38]–[26:22])

Why Communication is So Hard: Normal effortless conversation actually depends on highly complex recursive mind-reading — understanding not just what someone said, but what they meant, what they believe you will infer, and so on.
Computers Struggle: It's easier to make a computer beat a chess grandmaster than convincingly hold a human conversation, evidencing the difficulty of social exchange.

7. Social Brain Hypothesis & Human Intelligence ([25:53]–[28:26])

Social Navigation Drives Intelligence: The demands of navigating large, complex coalitions explain why humans evolved such large brains and advanced cognitive abilities.
Video Game Analogy: Human interactions are far less predictable than games against fixed-rule AI opponents.

8. Cooperation Versus Conflict and the Role of Self-Deception ([28:26]–[34:59])

Rules and Exceptions: Daily life is mostly cooperative, but everyone nudges the boundaries for advantage, helped along by self-deception (“I didn’t know I was breaking the rule!”).
Indirect Speech & Ambiguity: Many everyday indirect statements serve as “plausible deniability” when navigating conflict. (e.g., “Want to come up for a drink?” at the end of a date.)

9. Gossip, Gender, and Coalition Dynamics ([36:04]–[47:54])

Ambiguity and Social Competition: Criticisms, especially among women in intrasexual rivalry, are often couched in moral rather than direct competitive terms (the Sydney Sweeney example at [36:04]).
Friendship Network Differences: Men's friendships are broad and low-maintenance; women's are deeper but fewer, explained by differing ancestral demands for collective child-rearing versus group cooperation.

10. Coalition Building, Belonging, and Anxiety ([60:12]–[67:27])

Deep Need to Belong: Human psychology is deeply attuned to belonging to a group—both for support and for safety (Survivor analogy at [64:41]).
Internal Hierarchies: In every group, there are internal ranks, and people continually monitor their position.

11. Loyalty, Coalition Testing, and Social Ritual ([67:14]–[69:56])

Signals of Commitment: Coalitions test members’ loyalty through rituals and demands for public displays (e.g., exaggerated beliefs, group songs, etc.).
Extreme Beliefs as Loyalty Tests: The more “irrational” the public stance, the better a test of loyalty (and the less likely someone is a double agent).

12. Political Polarization and Social Media ([72:15]–[76:59])

Algorithms Drive Extremes: Social media algorithms amplify polarization by rewarding predictability, pushing people to extremes for easier targeting.
Coalition Policing: Group members are sanctioned for insufficient loyalty, and out-group members can spot “cracks” in the coalition.

13. Democracy: Truth Seeking or Coalition Game? ([76:59]–[89:23])

Democracy as a Coalition Process: Rather than being a marketplace of ideas seeking the common good, democracy is best seen as an arena where coalitions vie to adjust the social contract in their favor.
Ideologies as Bids: Political ideologies are not abstract blueprints for the good life but strategies put forward by coalitions to tilt the “social contract.”
Selectorate Theory: The reason democracy feels fairer is its wide selectorate (voting base), which forces politicians to cater to a broad swath of interests, unlike autocracies with narrow selectorates.

14. The Invisibility of Game-Playing and Self-Deception ([89:23]–[99:11])

Why We Don’t Realize We’re Playing Games: Evolution didn't equip us with a “rulebook.” Not being conscious of our strategic maneuvering actually makes us more trustworthy and convincing.
Emotional Commitment as Strategy: Feelings of love, loyalty, and friendship are adaptations for credible commitment, necessary for stable cooperation.

15. Should We Try to “See the Games”? ([97:22]–[101:37])

Humbling but Not Always Helpful: Acknowledging these layers can be humbling (less pride in “authenticity”), but won’t necessarily help us play better—indeed, some self-deception is necessary for social flourishing.
Empathy: Chris notes that knowing about these dynamics fosters empathy towards others and oneself—but is harder to practice self-compassion.

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

On reasoning as persuasion:
"We're reasoning like lawyers to convince other people."
(Lionel Page, [01:51])
On self-deception:
"One way of limiting this cost or one way of not being found out is actually to believe my own stories... in the game of life, you know, your cause is not that clear. And so if you start believing that your, the hands that you have is stronger than it is, you might actually be able to bluff. In a way you bluff but you believe your own bluff and that's convincing because you don't leak cues that you're bluffing."
(Lionel Page, [07:19])
The ‘not a lie if you believe it’ effect:
"You have a saying in Seinfeld where one of the protagonists says it's not a lie if you believe it. Right. And so this is the thing. If you want to convince others and if believing your own story is convincing and helps you convince others, then you don't have to lie."
(Lionel Page, [13:54])
On group exclusion:
"You have social experiments... very simple social experiments. People are throwing the balls, and after a while they get the two other people to stop throwing the ball at you. And what they found out that this very simple experiment kind of induced anxiety in the respondent because it's a game. It's like, why are they not sending the ball to me? ... The feeling of exclusion and the monitoring...is something which is very deep in our psychology."
(Lionel Page, [61:00])
Democracy is the best for you:
"What democracy is good [for is that] everybody's interests tend to be respected and taken care of because the politicians who compete to be elected, they care about you because you're part of this selectorate."
(Lionel Page, [89:08])
On self-awareness and the limits of self-knowledge:
"We have been talking and saying all these games, what we do, and they are very complex and we're really good at it. ... There's a very surprising thing is that we're often not aware that we're playing these games...nature doesn't need to give you the rule book for you to be effective...Often it's even better if we don't know."
(Lionel Page, [90:09])
On the strategic use of feelings:
"A solution that's likely given by nature is a strong emotion that we have to bind, which binds us to others and which are visible and give visible signs to others that they can trust. So in a partnership between a man and woman it's going to be love. ... people are in love, they will purposefully not look at other options. And also this emotion gives cues... which are, you know, you can see when somebody is besetted with another person and that's credible."
(Lionel Page, [92:51])
Summary realization:
"Humans are better at playing games when they don't know that they're games."
(Chris Williamson, [97:02])

Timestamps for Key Segments

[00:00] - The real purpose of reasoning
[05:13] - Self-deception: strategic roots
[08:21] - Subtle, everyday self-deception
[13:15] - Lying to oneself vs. others
[15:07] - Reputation and trustworthiness
[19:38] - The complexity of communication
[25:53] - Social brain hypothesis
[28:26] - Cooperation and flexibility in rules
[31:31] - Conflict and plausible deniability
[36:04] - Gossip, morality, and social competition
[41:28] - Ambiguity and gendered communication
[47:54] - Coalition dynamics and group signaling
[60:12] - Importance of belonging and anxiety
[67:14] - Loyalty testing and social rituals
[72:15] - Social media, polarization, & coalition costs
[76:59] - Democracy as coalition management
[89:23] - The invisibility of social games
[97:02] - Meta-awareness: should we see the games?
[99:11] - Practical use (or not)
[100:34] - Empathy, self-compassion & final thoughts

Key Takeaways

Self-deception is adaptive and universal: It's not a flaw, but a feature needed for effective social persuasion and trust.
Reasoning is a social, not purely rational, tool: We use it to win others to our side far more than to discover scientific truth.
Reputation and coalition drive much of human behavior: Belonging, loyalty, and not being excluded are existential needs.
Most “irrational” or “tribal” behavior has evolutionary rationale: Even extreme or contradictory public stances serve to signal commitment to coalitions.
Understanding these dynamics is humbling and fosters empathy: Intellectual awareness doesn’t always help us “win,” but can deepen self-understanding.

Modern Wisdom Ep. #995 - Lionel Page – Born to Lie: How Humans Deceive Ourselves & Others

Host: Chris Williamson
Guest: Lionel Page
Date: September 18, 2025

Overview

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Purpose of Human Reasoning ([00:00]–[05:55])

Reason as a Social Tool: Lionel argues that human reasoning evolved less for solving practical or scientific problems, but mainly as a “lawyer’s” tool to convince others in social interactions.
Key Insight: “We are reasoning, but we are not reasoning like scientists to solve problems. We're reasoning like lawyers to convince other people.” (Lionel Page, [01:51])
Confirmation Bias by Design: Errors like confirmation bias are not bugs but features of this advocacy-oriented reasoning.
Inherited Solutions: Most practical “problem-solving” in life consists of using inherited, communal solutions, not figuring things out alone.

2. Self-Deception: Mechanisms and Evolution ([05:13]–[08:21])

Strategic Self-Deception: Overconfidence and inflated self-assessment offer social advantages but carry real risks.
Robert Trivers’ Theory: Self-deception boosts our ability to persuade others by shielding us from revealing cues of deception.
Poker Analogy: Like a poker player who believes in a weak hand, self-deceivers can bluff more effectively.

3. Everyday Self-Deception and Social Conflict ([08:21]–[13:15])

Universality: Self-deception is not a rare pathology but a universal, adaptive trait. Coupled with “rose-tinted glasses,” it explains why everyone sees themselves as doing more than their share in, e.g., household chores.
Victimhood as Strategy: Even self-perceptions of victimhood can be a form of self-deception, granting moral high ground and potential retribution in social games.

4. Differences Between Lying to Ourselves and Others ([13:15]–[15:07])

Plausible Deniability: Self-deception minimizes the risks of being caught in a lie and allows us to maintain higher social trust.
Quote: “It's not a lie if you believe it.” (Lionel citing Seinfeld, [13:54])

5. Reputation and Trustworthiness ([15:07]–[18:29])

Reputation as Social Currency: Repeated interactions and reputation are what keep us honest and cooperative.
Insight: “Reputation is what makes us comply with the rules of cooperating now. Because if we don't, then our record is tainted and then all those people will know that...” (Lionel, [17:49])

6. Complexity in Human Communication ([19:38]–[26:22])

Why Communication is So Hard: Normal effortless conversation actually depends on highly complex recursive mind-reading — understanding not just what someone said, but what they meant, what they believe you will infer, and so on.
Computers Struggle: It's easier to make a computer beat a chess grandmaster than convincingly hold a human conversation, evidencing the difficulty of social exchange.

7. Social Brain Hypothesis & Human Intelligence ([25:53]–[28:26])

Social Navigation Drives Intelligence: The demands of navigating large, complex coalitions explain why humans evolved such large brains and advanced cognitive abilities.
Video Game Analogy: Human interactions are far less predictable than games against fixed-rule AI opponents.

8. Cooperation Versus Conflict and the Role of Self-Deception ([28:26]–[34:59])

Rules and Exceptions: Daily life is mostly cooperative, but everyone nudges the boundaries for advantage, helped along by self-deception (“I didn’t know I was breaking the rule!”).
Indirect Speech & Ambiguity: Many everyday indirect statements serve as “plausible deniability” when navigating conflict. (e.g., “Want to come up for a drink?” at the end of a date.)

9. Gossip, Gender, and Coalition Dynamics ([36:04]–[47:54])

Ambiguity and Social Competition: Criticisms, especially among women in intrasexual rivalry, are often couched in moral rather than direct competitive terms (the Sydney Sweeney example at [36:04]).
Friendship Network Differences: Men's friendships are broad and low-maintenance; women's are deeper but fewer, explained by differing ancestral demands for collective child-rearing versus group cooperation.

10. Coalition Building, Belonging, and Anxiety ([60:12]–[67:27])

Deep Need to Belong: Human psychology is deeply attuned to belonging to a group—both for support and for safety (Survivor analogy at [64:41]).
Internal Hierarchies: In every group, there are internal ranks, and people continually monitor their position.

11. Loyalty, Coalition Testing, and Social Ritual ([67:14]–[69:56])

Signals of Commitment: Coalitions test members’ loyalty through rituals and demands for public displays (e.g., exaggerated beliefs, group songs, etc.).
Extreme Beliefs as Loyalty Tests: The more “irrational” the public stance, the better a test of loyalty (and the less likely someone is a double agent).

12. Political Polarization and Social Media ([72:15]–[76:59])

Algorithms Drive Extremes: Social media algorithms amplify polarization by rewarding predictability, pushing people to extremes for easier targeting.
Coalition Policing: Group members are sanctioned for insufficient loyalty, and out-group members can spot “cracks” in the coalition.

13. Democracy: Truth Seeking or Coalition Game? ([76:59]–[89:23])

Democracy as a Coalition Process: Rather than being a marketplace of ideas seeking the common good, democracy is best seen as an arena where coalitions vie to adjust the social contract in their favor.
Ideologies as Bids: Political ideologies are not abstract blueprints for the good life but strategies put forward by coalitions to tilt the “social contract.”
Selectorate Theory: The reason democracy feels fairer is its wide selectorate (voting base), which forces politicians to cater to a broad swath of interests, unlike autocracies with narrow selectorates.

14. The Invisibility of Game-Playing and Self-Deception ([89:23]–[99:11])

Why We Don’t Realize We’re Playing Games: Evolution didn't equip us with a “rulebook.” Not being conscious of our strategic maneuvering actually makes us more trustworthy and convincing.
Emotional Commitment as Strategy: Feelings of love, loyalty, and friendship are adaptations for credible commitment, necessary for stable cooperation.

15. Should We Try to “See the Games”? ([97:22]–[101:37])

Humbling but Not Always Helpful: Acknowledging these layers can be humbling (less pride in “authenticity”), but won’t necessarily help us play better—indeed, some self-deception is necessary for social flourishing.
Empathy: Chris notes that knowing about these dynamics fosters empathy towards others and oneself—but is harder to practice self-compassion.

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

On reasoning as persuasion:
"We're reasoning like lawyers to convince other people."
(Lionel Page, [01:51])
On self-deception:
"One way of limiting this cost or one way of not being found out is actually to believe my own stories... in the game of life, you know, your cause is not that clear. And so if you start believing that your, the hands that you have is stronger than it is, you might actually be able to bluff. In a way you bluff but you believe your own bluff and that's convincing because you don't leak cues that you're bluffing."
(Lionel Page, [07:19])
The ‘not a lie if you believe it’ effect:
"You have a saying in Seinfeld where one of the protagonists says it's not a lie if you believe it. Right. And so this is the thing. If you want to convince others and if believing your own story is convincing and helps you convince others, then you don't have to lie."
(Lionel Page, [13:54])
On group exclusion:
"You have social experiments... very simple social experiments. People are throwing the balls, and after a while they get the two other people to stop throwing the ball at you. And what they found out that this very simple experiment kind of induced anxiety in the respondent because it's a game. It's like, why are they not sending the ball to me? ... The feeling of exclusion and the monitoring...is something which is very deep in our psychology."
(Lionel Page, [61:00])
Democracy is the best for you:
"What democracy is good [for is that] everybody's interests tend to be respected and taken care of because the politicians who compete to be elected, they care about you because you're part of this selectorate."
(Lionel Page, [89:08])
On self-awareness and the limits of self-knowledge:
"We have been talking and saying all these games, what we do, and they are very complex and we're really good at it. ... There's a very surprising thing is that we're often not aware that we're playing these games...nature doesn't need to give you the rule book for you to be effective...Often it's even better if we don't know."
(Lionel Page, [90:09])
On the strategic use of feelings:
"A solution that's likely given by nature is a strong emotion that we have to bind, which binds us to others and which are visible and give visible signs to others that they can trust. So in a partnership between a man and woman it's going to be love. ... people are in love, they will purposefully not look at other options. And also this emotion gives cues... which are, you know, you can see when somebody is besetted with another person and that's credible."
(Lionel Page, [92:51])
Summary realization:
"Humans are better at playing games when they don't know that they're games."
(Chris Williamson, [97:02])

Timestamps for Key Segments

[00:00] - The real purpose of reasoning
[05:13] - Self-deception: strategic roots
[08:21] - Subtle, everyday self-deception
[13:15] - Lying to oneself vs. others
[15:07] - Reputation and trustworthiness
[19:38] - The complexity of communication
[25:53] - Social brain hypothesis
[28:26] - Cooperation and flexibility in rules
[31:31] - Conflict and plausible deniability
[36:04] - Gossip, morality, and social competition
[41:28] - Ambiguity and gendered communication
[47:54] - Coalition dynamics and group signaling
[60:12] - Importance of belonging and anxiety
[67:14] - Loyalty testing and social rituals
[72:15] - Social media, polarization, & coalition costs
[76:59] - Democracy as coalition management
[89:23] - The invisibility of social games
[97:02] - Meta-awareness: should we see the games?
[99:11] - Practical use (or not)
[100:34] - Empathy, self-compassion & final thoughts

Key Takeaways

Self-deception is adaptive and universal: It's not a flaw, but a feature needed for effective social persuasion and trust.
Reasoning is a social, not purely rational, tool: We use it to win others to our side far more than to discover scientific truth.
Reputation and coalition drive much of human behavior: Belonging, loyalty, and not being excluded are existential needs.
Most “irrational” or “tribal” behavior has evolutionary rationale: Even extreme or contradictory public stances serve to signal commitment to coalitions.
Understanding these dynamics is humbling and fosters empathy: Intellectual awareness doesn’t always help us “win,” but can deepen self-understanding.

#995 - Lionel Page - Born to Lie: How Humans Deceive Ourselves & Others

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Summary

Modern Wisdom Ep. #995 - Lionel Page – Born to Lie: How Humans Deceive Ourselves & Others

Overview

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Purpose of Human Reasoning ([00:00]–[05:55])

2. Self-Deception: Mechanisms and Evolution ([05:13]–[08:21])

3. Everyday Self-Deception and Social Conflict ([08:21]–[13:15])

4. Differences Between Lying to Ourselves and Others ([13:15]–[15:07])

5. Reputation and Trustworthiness ([15:07]–[18:29])

6. Complexity in Human Communication ([19:38]–[26:22])

7. Social Brain Hypothesis & Human Intelligence ([25:53]–[28:26])

8. Cooperation Versus Conflict and the Role of Self-Deception ([28:26]–[34:59])

9. Gossip, Gender, and Coalition Dynamics ([36:04]–[47:54])

10. Coalition Building, Belonging, and Anxiety ([60:12]–[67:27])

11. Loyalty, Coalition Testing, and Social Ritual ([67:14]–[69:56])

12. Political Polarization and Social Media ([72:15]–[76:59])

13. Democracy: Truth Seeking or Coalition Game? ([76:59]–[89:23])

14. The Invisibility of Game-Playing and Self-Deception ([89:23]–[99:11])

15. Should We Try to “See the Games”? ([97:22]–[101:37])

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

Timestamps for Key Segments

Key Takeaways

Further Reading & Recommendations

Summary

Modern Wisdom Ep. #995 - Lionel Page – Born to Lie: How Humans Deceive Ourselves & Others

Overview

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Purpose of Human Reasoning ([00:00]–[05:55])

2. Self-Deception: Mechanisms and Evolution ([05:13]–[08:21])

3. Everyday Self-Deception and Social Conflict ([08:21]–[13:15])

4. Differences Between Lying to Ourselves and Others ([13:15]–[15:07])

5. Reputation and Trustworthiness ([15:07]–[18:29])

6. Complexity in Human Communication ([19:38]–[26:22])

7. Social Brain Hypothesis & Human Intelligence ([25:53]–[28:26])

8. Cooperation Versus Conflict and the Role of Self-Deception ([28:26]–[34:59])

9. Gossip, Gender, and Coalition Dynamics ([36:04]–[47:54])

10. Coalition Building, Belonging, and Anxiety ([60:12]–[67:27])

11. Loyalty, Coalition Testing, and Social Ritual ([67:14]–[69:56])

12. Political Polarization and Social Media ([72:15]–[76:59])

13. Democracy: Truth Seeking or Coalition Game? ([76:59]–[89:23])

14. The Invisibility of Game-Playing and Self-Deception ([89:23]–[99:11])

15. Should We Try to “See the Games”? ([97:22]–[101:37])

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

Timestamps for Key Segments

Key Takeaways

Further Reading & Recommendations