#997 - Bonnie Blue & Louise Perry - The Modern Sex Work Debate

Summary

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Modern Wisdom #997: The Modern Sex Work Debate

Guests: Bonnie Blue & Louise Perry

Host: Chris Williamson
Date: September 22, 2025

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Overview

In this episode of Modern Wisdom, Chris Williamson sits down with controversial adult content creator Bonnie Blue and feminist author/journalist Louise Perry to explore the modern sex work debate. The conversation digs into psychological, personal, cultural, and ethical aspects of the sex industry, focusing on Bonnie’s rise to notoriety and what her experiences reveal about consent, happiness, stigma, and social change in the wake of the sexual revolution.

Louise Perry approaches the topic as a critic of the sexual revolution and sex industry, while Bonnie Blue embodies the unabashed, empowered, and divisive persona of the “post-OnlyFans” era. Together they examine not only individual well-being, but also the downstream cultural effects of hyper-public, commodified sexuality.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Why This Conversation? (00:00–01:12)

• Louise Perry wants to understand Bonnie’s psychology, as most sex workers she’s interviewed describe trauma/distress, while Bonnie insists she is happy and unharmed.
  • “You don’t talk about [trauma]. And I think that you’re telling the truth. I think actually you don’t find this work causes you psychological harm.” — Louise Perry, 00:57

2. Bonnie’s Background: Happy By Choice (01:12–05:55)

• Bonnie refutes the idea that her sex work is a result of trauma or deprivation; her motivation is personal choice and pursuit of happiness.
  • “For me, I’ve just chosen to do this.” — Bonnie Blue, 01:12
• Stability and autonomy, not money or sexual attention alone, are core to her satisfaction.
  • “I get to travel…I get to spend so much more time with my family…and it gives me a massive confidence boost. There’s no part of my job I don’t really enjoy.” — Bonnie Blue, 03:48

3. Sex, Relationships & Authenticity (04:31–06:09)

• The panel debates whether “gold diggers” or women who secure luxury through wealthy partners are effectively “sex workers.” Bonnie considers herself more honest & independent.
  • “They’re using their holes to pay their bills. It’s just someone else who’s doing it. But I’m independent.” — Bonnie Blue, 04:59

4. Limits, Identity, and Dissent (06:13–13:20)

• Bonnie claims no difficulty in walking away, saying she knows her limits, lacks consistency bias, and is immune to peer pressure. She describes unusually high physical/emotional endurance and low disgust sensitivity.
  • “The big difference between me and other sex workers is I understand my limits, I understand my body and what I can take or what I can’t take…so I’m never left distressed.” — Bonnie Blue, 08:08
• Louise presses Bonnie on the emotional difficulties of intimacy with strangers; Bonnie says she compartmentalizes and does not judge men by looks.
  • “I don’t even always know I’ve had sex with someone. I don’t always know who’s inside of me…But I never look at someone and think, I don’t want you near me.” — Bonnie Blue, 12:08/13:29

5. Sex as Hobby & Escalation (15:17–19:38)

• Bonnie now sees sex as “a hobby, it’s fun and there’s not really much else I think about it.” She had a low “body count” prior to entering sex work for money/freedom after leaving recruitment and retail jobs.
  • “Now sex is just a—it doesn’t have to mean something. I can still enjoy it. It’s an orgasm and it’s as simple as that.” — Bonnie Blue, 15:33
• Entrance into group sex events was accidental and later became intentional as a career differentiator.
  • “I realised I loved the environment it created. It wasn’t dirty…just a fun experience for me and those involved.” — Bonnie Blue, 19:05

6. Trolling, Notoriety, and Social Strategy (21:32–24:44)

• Bonnie admits her online persona is intentionally provocative, targeting women because “they’re easy to wind up” and amplifies controversy to grow her audience.
  • “Women…spend more time on TikTok than their husbands. So…my TikToks [are] for women because I know they’re going to complain about it.” — Bonnie Blue, 22:18
• She claims to have female friends and holds that harm to relationships is ultimately not her responsibility: “No one is forced. If a wife is ever affected…it’s—they need to look in the mirror.”* — Bonnie Blue, 24:05

7. Cultural Impact, Cheating, & Hypocrisy (24:44–29:52)

• The trio debates whether normalization and easy access to sex work/porn changes behavior and temptations around cheating, likening sex work to alcohol in terms of environmental triggers.
  • Bonnie: “If someone was really happy in their marriage, they wouldn’t have turned up…Sometimes people cheat and it’s not because they don’t love their wife…Your husband’s probably still wanting sex and…he goes elsewhere…It’s not an affair. There’s no text and there’s no emotional connection.” — Bonnie Blue, 26:18
• Louise/Perry argue Bonnie is the “reductio ad absurdum” of the sexual revolution—taking modern ideas of sexual and financial autonomy to their logical conclusion, which unsettles cultural norms.

8. Legal/Ethical Dimensions (43:23–45:27)

• Bonnie criticizes attempts to criminalize OnlyFans, arguing it would only drive the practice elsewhere (and make it less safe).
• Discussion of recent legal attempts to restrict porn leads to evidence that even mild “friction” (like age-verification) dramatically lowers use, challenging idea that sex/porn consumption is inevitable.
  • “If it’s harder to access porn, people will watch less of it.” — Louise Perry, 45:03

9. Porn, Consent, and Downstream Harm (46:24–56:58)

• Louise raises concerns that easy access to increasingly extreme porn shapes tastes and expectations, potentially normalizing violence (like choking) and harming those less assertive than Bonnie.
  • “When rough sex and choking is normalized, all of a sudden you have juries who...think, oh yeah, that’s plausible. Like, I know that all the Zuma girls love being choked nowadays.” — Louise Perry, 51:13
• Bonnie counters that her content models active consent, breaks the “perfect” porn edit, and leaves in consent discussions for realism.
  • “Discussing consent isn’t weird. It’s sexy…in the sex I have with these 18 year olds…I explain to them how I enjoy to be choked.” — Bonnie Blue, 55:14

10. Bonnie’s Outlier Psychology (59:32–121:36)

• Panel explores why Bonnie is so resistant to stigma, negative feedback, and trauma.
  • Louise: “…you’re a far right tail on so many different traits.” — 59:45
• In personality testing, Louise predicts Bonnie would be:
  • High Openness (to experience)
  • High Conscientiousness
  • High Extroversion
  • Low Agreeableness (not prioritizing social harmony)
  • Low Neuroticism
• Bonnie maintains that negative comments don’t bother her unless they directly hurt her family (notably around rumors of child abuse, which did upset her). Otherwise, “I know I’m happy…I think that’s one of the best things about me.” (77:34)

11. Children, Family, & Future Consequences (68:12–90:00)

• Louise challenges Bonnie on how her notoriety would affect future children; Bonnie acknowledges downsides but focuses on material security and time as outweighing shame.
• Bonnie admits she struggles most with family vulnerability (documentary scene where her family sees explicit footage, 87:21) but generally rationalizes “tummy” feelings as protectiveness, not personal shame.

12. Responsibility, Limits, & Industry Competition (65:02–85:12)

• Bonnie draws the ethical line at “financial domination” (draining men’s bank accounts): “Morally, that’s not for me. That isn’t something I’d enjoy. I wouldn’t like that. I’m not doing this for power.” (66:44)
• Louise flags how Bonnie’s extremity pressures other sex workers to escalate—that economic competition in an “anything goes” market can harm those less robust.

13. Wider Social Harm: Steelmanning the Other Side (121:36–131:18)

• Louise “steel mans” the argument for sexual liberation: if porn actually reduced violence, that could outweigh downsides, but research evidence is inconclusive.
• Chris uses the metaphor of “fake natties” in fitness: Bonnie is an outlier, and her example may create harmful/exaggerated standards for others in the industry, especially vulnerable young women.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Honest Sex Work vs. “Gold-Digging” Marriage:
  “I see them as more of a sex worker than me…They’re using their holes to pay their bills. It’s just someone else who’s doing it. But I’m independent.”
  — Bonnie Blue (04:59)

• On Limits & Boundaries in Sex Work:
  “The difference between me and other sex workers is I understand my limits…so I’m never left distressed.”
  — Bonnie Blue (08:08)

• On Compartmentalization:
  “I don’t always even see their face…It’s like always a rotation. I don’t always know I’ve had sex with someone. I don’t always know who’s inside of me.”
  — Bonnie Blue (12:08)

• On Mainstream Sexual Culture:
  “You are kind of like the LeBron James of sociosexuality and disgust sensitivity.”
  — Chris Williamson (81:13)

• On Not Caring About Public Judgment:
  “I’m aware that I’m never going to look back on my life and go, I wish I cared less about what people thought about me. I’m already in that mindset.”
  — Bonnie Blue (78:54)

• On Modeling Consent:
  “Discussing consent isn’t weird. It’s sexy…most porn, it looks like this most perfect art performance…Even in terms of the fact I only slept with body shapes that had perfect abs and big dicks because that was what’s in the porn industry…when I realized the lack of information…I was like, I’m going to keep all that in.”
  — Bonnie Blue (55:14)

• On Outlier Status/Warning to Others:
  “It’d be easier if I did struggle a bit and I could open up and say, look, it comes at this cost…But that isn’t the case…For me, it really has been an easy ride.”
  — Bonnie Blue (130:36)

• On Outsized Impact:
  “Bonnie is like the reductio ad absurdum of the sexual revolution…She holds up a mirror to the culture.”
  — Chris Williamson/Louise Perry (28:40/41:07)

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• 00:00–01:12: Introduction, Louise’s motivation
• 01:12–05:55: Bonnie’s psychological health & early experiences
• 06:13–13:20: Identity, sexual resilience, disgust, and limits
• 15:17–19:38: Sex as hobby, escalation to group events
• 21:32–24:44: Notoriety and trolling strategies
• 24:44–29:52: Cheating, temptation, hypocrisy
• 43:23–45:27: Legal regulation and impact of access limits
• 46:24–56:58: Porn, normalization, consent, and downstream harm
• 59:32–121:36: Bonnie’s psychological profile; insensitivity to hate
• 68:12–90:00: Family, children, intergenerational impacts
• 121:36–131:18: Moral externalities, “fake natty” analogy, outlier risk
• 131:18–133:54: Closing reflections and future consequences

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Summary & Conclusion

This episode is a rare, probing look at what happens when the ideas of sexual freedom, individualism, and the commodification of sex are pursued to their utmost—in the figure of Bonnie Blue, a woman who claims radical happiness, agency, and immunity to stigma. Host and guests push each other over fault lines between personal well-being and cultural harm, authenticity and provocation, private limits and public spectacle.

In the end, all agree Bonnie is a genuine outlier, both in her profession and personality. This makes her both a symbol and a challenge: She is the “LeBron James of porn,” but also a lightning rod forcing society to reckon with what it truly values in sex, consent, market freedom, and collective morality.

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Key Takeaways:

• Bonnie Blue is an extreme outlier. Her lack of trauma, high self-efficacy, and thick-skinned nature make her a unique case—not representative of sex workers broadly.
• The “sex-positive”/libertarian view struggles to distinguish Bonnie’s case as problematic on its own terms, while critics worry she distorts the entire conversation and sets damaging standards.
• Cultural effects are subtle but potentially significant— normalizing sex as trivial, pushing the industry to extremes, and creating new forms of social scrutiny and backlash.
• Consent and resilience do not eliminate systemic risks, or answer every question about the commodification of intimacy and gender dynamics.

“You are the spirit of the age.” — Louise Perry (132:37)

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Transcript

[Chris Williamson]

Louise, why were you interested in sitting down with Bonnie?

[Louise Perry]

I find it really interesting. I think that a lot of just having talked to women about doing this conversation, the response from so many women is I think something like morbid curiosity.

[Bonnie Blue]

Yeah.

[Louise Perry]

Like interested in you. Confused by you.

[Bonnie Blue]

Yeah.

[Louise Perry]

And wondering. I mean, the main thing that I'm hoping that to learn about you today because obviously I know about your work, is your psychology, your personality, what it is about you that's led you to do this.

[Bonnie Blue]

Yeah.

[Louise Perry]

Because I get the impression from having watched interviews with you and so on, that actually over the years I've interviewed loads and loads of women or spoken to loads of loads of women who've been in the sex industry in various ways, whether that's porn or prostitution or brothels, street walking, whatever. And every single case they've talked about distress, trauma or having a horrible time, like to varying degrees.

[Bonnie Blue]

Yeah.

[Louise Perry]

You don't talk about that. And I think that you're telling the truth. I think actually you don't find this work causes you psychological harm.

[Bonnie Blue]

Yeah.

[Louise Perry]

And I guess I want to find out why. I think that's a really interesting question.

[Bonnie Blue]

Yeah. No, I think it's good because everyone always assumes. And even when I say multiple times, I'm not traumatized, I've not had a bad upbringing, everyone thinks I'm lying and it's really not the case. And it's terrible for some people, unfortunately they've had a bad upbringing or terrible things have happened. But for me, I've just chosen to do this.

[Chris Williamson]

How familiar are you with Louise's work? Do you know what she writes about? Are you familiar with anything?

[Bonnie Blue]

No, I'm not, unfortunately.

[Chris Williamson]

Okay. How would you. What's the 30,000 foot view to explain to Bonnie? Sort of your philosophical underpinnings.

[Louise Perry]

So I guess I'm coming at this as a conservative and I've. I mean, I wrote a book called the Case against the Sexual Revolution. I'm generally critical of the sexual revolution and po porn. I worked in a rape crisis center before I became a journalist, which I guess has informed my all sounds very intelligent. Bless you. And I. My general view on the sex industry is like very negative. So we, I. We're going to come at this from different perspectives, but I do like, I'm guessing that a lot of people listening are going to assume that I'm going to try and like uncover trauma in you or I'm going to try and like break through the.

[Bonnie Blue]

You'd waste your time.

[Louise Perry]

And I think, I actually think that's right. And that's part of the reason I'm interested in. I'm more interested in talking to you than I would be to say, Lily Phillips.

[Bonnie Blue]

Yeah.

[Louise Perry]

Because I think that Lily, to me and to a lot of people, I think it's clear that Lily is actually suffering quite a lot and is having a hard time.

[Bonnie Blue]

She seems traumatized.

[Louise Perry]

Right. Which is in a way less. The less interesting story.

[Chris Williamson]

It's more obvious.

[Louise Perry]

Yeah.

[Bonnie Blue]

And it is horrible. Like, I'm very lucky and fortunate to be in the position I'm in because I'm not traumatized, I'm not upset, I'm not distressed. But I think for a lot of people, and especially a lot of sex workers, they're completely out of their comfort zone. Or they're doing things for money and views, or unfortunately, they've had a bad upbringing which has led them to be a sex work. And it is terrible and it is horrible. And it's not always the nicest of industries for most people.

[Chris Williamson]

Would you advise Lily to stop?

[Bonnie Blue]

Yeah, I think if you're going to keep crying and upset and it's destroying your family, there's some things which are a lot more. More valuable than money and views. The biggest thing in life, and it's so simple, is to be happy. And if you're not happy, why do something? Because, yes, you could be driving fancy cars and, you know, you could wear flashy clothes, but if you're not happy, well, then what is it all for? Like, as long as each day I'm waking up happy and I'm going to sleep happy, I'll be proud of myself. Other people might be disgusted in me, and I accept that. But for me, as long as I'm happy, then that's okay.

[Louise Perry]

What bit of it makes you happy with what you do?

[Bonnie Blue]

It's a mixture. There's not one thing. It's not like, oh, it's the orgasm. Oh, it's the money, it's the views. The main part of it is the life I live now, both inside of work and outside. Like, I get to travel the world. I go on trips I would have dreamed of. I get to spend so much more time with my family. And I don't feel disgusting when I'm at work or when I'm filming. I'm surrounded with men which are giving me compliments. And it gives me a massive confidence boost. So there's no set answer of what makes me happy. It's. There's no part of my job I don't really enjoy. Like, yes, it can become tiring. It can be hard work at times, but no one becomes successful or lives a really happy life without facing some.

[Louise Perry]

Challenges, which, I mean, something I've often wondered about with anyone on Onlyfans.

[Bonnie Blue]

Yeah.

[Louise Perry]

Is you could presumably have landed a rich husband, like, if you had set that as your object. You're like, I want to live a luxurious life. Fair enough. You could have made that your goal, to be, like, the most successful gold digger in the world, and you would have achieved all of that, the travel, the living somewhere lovely, all of this, without the sex side of the world.

[Bonnie Blue]

I see them as more of a sex worker than me because they're using their sex appeal. They're using sex to pleasure their partner. Their partner is then going to fund their lifestyle. Their partner is then going to pay for holidays, fancy clothes. They're using sex just like I am. However, I'm not afraid to admit I use sex to get what I want. Whereas those people become very snobby, very uptight. They look down on most people, yet they're still using their holes to pay their bills. It's just someone else who's doing it. But I'm independent.

[Louise Perry]

So you're like the more. More honest, more authentic version, for sure.

[Bonnie Blue]

Like, there's nothing I lie about, there's nothing I. You know, people call me slag, whatever, and I accept that. People call me a sex worker because I am. Whereas if I was to say, look, you've married your husband purely for his money, in return, you give him sex they'd like. No, I'm not a sex worker. If they stopped giving him sex, he's going to leave and go elsewhere. But they can't. They need. They need his money.

[Louise Perry]

So is it also the vulnerability? Like you? I mean, I think at this point, you've earned so much money.

[Bonnie Blue]

Yeah.

[Louise Perry]

You're set up for life, I would guess. Whereas I suppose a woman with a rich husband, at any moment, he could just pull the rug.

[Chris Williamson]

They're on contract.

[Louise Perry]

Yeah.

[Bonnie Blue]

They've got a longer shift than I have that. I could stop. They can't. Yeah.

[Louise Perry]

Do you. Do you think you ever will stop?

[Bonnie Blue]

Possibly. But I don't have a plan anymore. And for most people, that sounds really stressful, but I used to have the most structured life. I knew exactly what I'd be doing on a Tuesday, midday, where are we getting lunch from? And now I don't have a plan. Because sometimes when you have a plan, you become so fixated on the future. What one year looks like what two years, five years down the line looks like and then you dismiss everyday happiness. You become so fixated on what the future looks like, you forget to live your life and live in this moment in time. So I can't say, oh, it's gonna be five years or 10 years because it might be in one year. I no longer enjoy it, so I'll stop. Um, so there's, there's no set, set plan and that's okay. I much prefer my life now, even though I don't know what or where I'm going to be tomorrow, let alone five years. And you, you can't always say, like, when you was young, you'd enjoy going to the park, and then when you're a bit older, you might enjoy some other interests and then get close to bird watching. Like, it always varies. So I can't say what's going to make me happy now is going to make me happy in 10 years.

[Chris Williamson]

Do you think it would be difficult for you to stop, given that you've attached so much of your notoriety and sense of identity to this thing that if you've made a big song and dance about this is what I want to do. That if you no longer want to do it, there is going to be this social consistency bias, this sort of momentum that's behind you where you go, fuck every person that said she's not built for it or this isn't gonna be right. I'm gonna have to now do this U turn, whether it is self generated or external, internally imposed. Does that make sense?

[Bonnie Blue]

Yeah.

[Chris Williamson]

You have this sense of obligation to what you promised in the past about what you wanted right now. Yeah, I imagine that even you would struggle. There's going to be a sense of fuck. Like I've got this, I've got this weird obligation, identity obligation that I used to have.

[Bonnie Blue]

I completely understand where you're coming from, but no, because I don't care. I don't really get peer pressured into doing anything. If I think something, I'll do it. And if I don't want to do something, I'm very stubborn and I won't do it. So. And I've always said I might not be doing it in 10 years, I might be doing it in 10 years. It depends if it makes me happy or not. And even if I sat here today and said, I'm definitely doing this in 10 years, and then if in five years I change my mind, that's fine because I'm in control. And the big difference between me and other sex workers is I understand my limits, I understand my body and what I can take or what I can't take. So I'm never left distressed or I'm never left thinking that was too much for me to handle because, you know, I sort of know what I can and can't do.

[Chris Williamson]

Well, have you ever hit your limit?

[Bonnie Blue]

Not yet.

[Chris Williamson]

Right.

[Bonnie Blue]

I've been very kind of.

[Chris Williamson]

Okay, tell me about that.

[Bonnie Blue]

I did a really big scene in America, so I'd always done. Obviously, I did the thousand in January, and then I did one in the US in, like, March or April with 50 porn stars. And their penises are a lot bigger than the average person. The way they have sex, the way it's incredibly rough at times. And that was hard. And I went into it quite naive. I was thinking, well, I've done a thousand. What's 50? But that 50 was really. It was really hard.

[Chris Williamson]

How so?

[Bonnie Blue]

Just very intense. It was rough. There was times where I could not see at all. Like, my eyes were completely filled with fluids. And yet there's some positions which I was like, no, I need to switch this up. It's actually feeling, you know, a bit painful. But that was fine as long as I'm able to say, hey, I need to switch this position up. That you could be having sex with one person sometimes. And you think, okay, no, my legs are flinching. I need to switch this. But you have to speak up. You can't sort of sit there and go through something painful and then blame everyone else for you being in pain. Because if you don't tell someone it hurts, then how are they going to know?

[Louise Perry]

You say a bit painful. I mean, I think most women are, like, bowled over the thought of how painful it would be.

[Bonnie Blue]

Yeah.

[Louise Perry]

Do you, like. Do you think that you're unusual, like, not wanting to get into anatomy?

[Bonnie Blue]

Yeah.

[Louise Perry]

Although it feels funny saying that's body blue. Do you have, like, more physical endurance, do you think, than most women?

[Bonnie Blue]

No. I mean, I've always said I've been very athletic. I've always been quite fit and healthy. But no, like, when I first started, I didn't really understand what turned me on and what I enjoyed a lot more. Like, when I'm enjoying it, I find I'm able to have sex a lot rougher.

[Louise Perry]

So.

[Bonnie Blue]

So now if I need to take more breaks, I will. I don't feel panicked to sort of know what I'm. I don't ever think, oh, I need to know what I'm doing right now. If I think, you know what, actually, could I have someone to lick me out for five minutes before we Go again. I'll happily speak up and say that. So. But I do think I have a good level of endurance.

[Louise Perry]

How about emotional endurance? Because another thing that a lot of women will think is, like, frankly, a lot of these guys are gross. Like, I've seen, I've seen videos of your cues and of the guys who show up to the events and they, they can be old, they can be fat. Like, probably some of them smell, I'm guessing.

[Bonnie Blue]

Like, honestly, everyone says this, but in terms of the smell, like, yeah, some of them are skinny, some are fat. Like, some are spotty, some aren't, but that's normal. Like, in terms of smell, genuinely, they never smell. And I think it's because they're so nervous. They know they're coming maxed out on.

[Louise Perry]

Links before they show 100%.

[Bonnie Blue]

They know they're coming to me purely for sex. So. So they have showered just before I came. They freshen up just before they come in. So in terms of smell, no. But even in terms of body shapes, I used to say, oh, fat people are lazy. Like, they actually irritate me. But then when I became a sex worker and I'd start to speak to these men a lot more, yeah, some of them are fat. And I'd speak to them and realize they're not necessarily fat all the time because they're lazy. Their life is so busy, they've got children now, they're trying to pay bills, they're trying to keep on top of things and they can no longer prioritize, you know, clean eating all the time in the gym. So I don't even judge the fat ones anymore. But I used to.

[Louise Perry]

But you don't get any sense of like physically recoiling. Like, I don't fancy this man. You never get that one.

[Bonnie Blue]

Most of them have a blue ski mask again on.

[Louise Perry]

So in terms of their face wise, no.

[Bonnie Blue]

Yeah. I think if I really found someone unattractive, the part I've struggled with most is the kissing. Because to me that's very. I don't know, you connect a lot when you kiss someone. But no, like, I don't always even see their face. And I know this is going to report a lot of people, but I love the fact it's like always a rotation. I don't even always know I've had sex with someone. I don't always know who's inside of me. But no, I don't get reports. I sort of see everyone as they're there for a reason. I don't know what's happening. Behind their closed doors and I'm there purely to give them a good experience. And that's all I sort of focus on. Some of them I obviously find more attractive than others I think, bloody out of your heart. And then other ones I'm like, oh, I wouldn't date you. But even if you walk past someone attractive in the street, that's not what's going to make you come. It's the way they are, their technique. And I can remember when I was a full service worker, one of my clients, he was a bit bigger. I didn't find him attractive. And if anything, he repulsed me a little bit. He made me orgasm and I was like, oh, God, should I be disgusting in myself that this guy that I don't find attractive has just made me come? And. And then I realize it's not to do with their looks, it's their technique and how they treat me in the bedroom. That you could sleep with someone really attractive and they're terrible in bed.

[Louise Perry]

So you do have a threshold. Like sometimes you will find men slightly repulsive at least, but it's not so high a threshold that basically everyone, obviously.

[Bonnie Blue]

I look at different people and think, you're more attractive than the other person. I prefer your body shape to the other one. Like everyone's got preferences and I know I have, but I never look at someone and think, I don't want you near me.

[Louise Perry]

Interesting. I remember Rachel Moran, who is a. She was prostituted as a teenager in Dublin. Something that she says to women to try and, like, help them to understand what it's like to be in prostitution is. Imagine being on a bus or in a cafe or something and look around every single man in that room and think, I have to have sex with every single one of these men, like old, young, fat, whatever. And she uses that as the thought experiment for women because overwhelmingly they respond like, oh, and what's unusual about you is you don't respond.

[Bonnie Blue]

Oh, yeah. You actually think if they were smelly and like, stuff like that, that really get me, like, smell. I just think, stick some deodorant on or have a shower, like. But because they don't smell like that was. That's my biggest thing. I think it's smart, especially because they're going to be in my mouth and I'm licking them. Yeah, but in terms of looks, I really don't judge and I probably used to, but you trained yourself out of it a bit. Not trained myself. I've spoke to them for years now and hours on an end, like, if Someone's got bad skin, it's not their fault all the time. Someone, at times it's because they've got a terrible diet and they're lazy and they're not washing their face and everything else. But some people just have bad skin. Some people are super skinny, some people are fat. And I'm always very open minded and I think that's allowed me to drop the judgment and drop the. You repulse me because I might see someone really fat and some of them come in with genuinely not even an inch and they're massive and I can barely find it. But I think, you know what, you've come to the event like this might really boost your confidence. I don't know, you might be really stressing outside of this, you might be having a bad life and there's probably a reason of why you're so fat. But I just want to give you.

[Chris Williamson]

A good, you know, very philanthropic in that way. What do you think sex is for? Do you, do you think of it as something, is it sacred, relational, recreational? Nothing? Is it the same as, as walking?

[Bonnie Blue]

It's a hobby, it's fun and there's not really much to it. Like else I think about it before, I used to have a really low body count prior to being a sex worker. I couldn't imagine having sex with someone unless I was dating him or unless I imagined, you know, I wasn't having sex on a first date. Now it's within seconds. But to me now sex is just a. It doesn't have to mean something. I can still enjoy it. It's a, it's an orgasm and it's as simple as that.

[Louise Perry]

Before, how old were you when you became a sex worker?

[Bonnie Blue]

24. I'm doing two years, so 20.

[Louise Perry]

And that was straight into OnlyFans.

[Bonnie Blue]

Yeah. Well, I did cam in for a couple of weeks, maybe for like two to four weeks. I did camming and that really boosted my confidence. Um, and then I set up OnlyFans.

[Louise Perry]

So before then you said you had a low body count. You wouldn't do like gang bangs off camera.

[Bonnie Blue]

Right.

[Louise Perry]

Because that's now your main thing, that's what you need for.

[Bonnie Blue]

So prior to that I was married and in a long term relationship.

[Louise Perry]

Yeah. And so like where's this come from? Where's this, this massive change in your.

[Bonnie Blue]

Sexual preferences to start with? Money. Yeah, I didn't want to go back to work. I used to work in recruitment. Long hours, restricted annual leave and I live the same life as everybody else. And then they sit and Complain about it.

[Chris Williamson]

Heard that you worked at Poundland when you were younger.

[Bonnie Blue]

Yes, I did. That was quite bad, to be honest. I can remember someone pissed in a potty and gave it to me and.

[Chris Williamson]

I said, well, that, well, both the fact that it's called Poundland and they pissed in a potty, that was quite prescient, I guess. For the rest of your life.

[Bonnie Blue]

Yeah, to be honest, I should use that. Yeah. I used to be a waitress. I was a dance teacher, worked at Poundland. I just did anything for a bit of, a bit of money and I never really cared what job I did. Like I worked at Pound Stretcher because that job paid more than all the other shops at the retail park. Or other people wanted a job at McDonald's. But my job paid nearly two pound extra an hour. So I've always been more bothered about what life I can create outside of work as opposed to being bothered that I had to wear a pound stretcher outfit. But yeah, when I first started it was money and I wanted flexibility in my life because I knew going back into recruitment, when rush hour traffic, sitting there for 40 hours a week, if not longer, I'd only have on Saturday and Sunday to myself. And then Sundays tends to be food shop cooking for the week and your whole day's taken up before you know it. So money and freedom was why I started.

[Louise Perry]

So you hadn't previously been sexually adventurous?

[Bonnie Blue]

No. Like sex three times a week with your husband? Yeah.

[Louise Perry]

How, how old are you when you lost virginity?

[Bonnie Blue]

13.

[Louise Perry]

So that is quite young.

[Bonnie Blue]

Young, but I've always been very grown up with my age. So if I saw a 13 year old now, some of them I'm like, oh my God, I can't believe I even had sex at that age. But I was very mature when I was 13.

[Louise Perry]

In terms of the, the, the group sex events that you're known for now.

[Bonnie Blue]

Yeah.

[Louise Perry]

Why did you start doing that? Was it because it turns you on or was it because there was like a niche in the market?

[Bonnie Blue]

It happened by accident, to be honest. The first one, well, I don't just trip into, you know, and end up in a gang bang, but I started off doing things like freshers and spring break and I was at spring break in March last year and loads of them would been saying that, like at the hotel I was at, like, I haven't had a chance to speak with you yet, you've not replied to my message. And I was leaving the following day, so I just shared my hotel room number. I was like, look, I'm Gonna be here. I leave at 10am tomorrow. Just queue up, bring your friends, like the door's gonna be open. And that just naturally ended up in a gang bang. It got to like 3, 4am I was really tired and I was like, look, whoever's left in the queue, look, just come all at once because like, I don't want to leave you waiting. And that was the first time I did a gang bang. And I realized it wasn't what I thought. It wasn't dirty, it wasn't disgusting. These guys were having a laugh. They was high fiving each other. It was quite, it was more funny than it was sexy, to be honest. Some of them couldn't get hard. Some of them was finishing straight away. And I realized I loved the environment it created. It wasn't dirty and I know people imagine it that way, but it was really just a fun experience for me and those involved.

[Chris Williamson]

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[Louise Perry]

End up chasing the records? So doing the hundred, doing the thousand.

[Bonnie Blue]

So after that spring break, there was a journalist who said like, what's next? Like, what are you gonna do after this? Because each time I was doing these like spring break or freshers, my numbers was going up. And he was like, well, why don't you do the world record? So it was actually a journalist, Joe, who said, sort of mentioned it and I didn't think too much of it. I was like, yeah, that sounds brilliant. But I knew I wasn't big enough at the time to get 900, a thousand people to be queuing up and having sex with me. Because it's one thing saying you're gonna do it. The organization behind it is probably the biggest headache. And the difficult part. See, it was in the back of my mind from March and as the months went on, I continued to grow. My social media got bigger. I was building a bigger name for myself. So then that's why I did it in January.

[Louise Perry]

If you've got any questions, I can go on and on.

[Chris Williamson]

I'm. I'm happy watching this go back and forth. It's girl on girl for now.

[Bonnie Blue]

I do like boy girl as well.

[Chris Williamson]

I'm setting this one out. I'm in the corner.

[Louise Perry]

So I guess doing the big events and like shocking people. And one of the things that you do in terms of your social media strategy is you troll everyone. Right. Like, and particularly you're often addressing women and like the wives and girlfriends of these men and really focus, like trying to get a rise out of people, trying to be controversial.

[Bonnie Blue]

Yeah.

[Louise Perry]

And one of the things, again, that I find sort of as a woman I find surprising and having spoken to other women, they also find it surprising, is that you don't seem to mind women hating you.

[Bonnie Blue]

No.

[Louise Perry]

It doesn't upset you. You don't feel that need to be liked that most women do feel. It's another way in which, like, you've got the physical endurance, you've got the low threshold for disgust, you've got. And you've got this appetite for notoriety.

[Bonnie Blue]

I don't hate women at all. I know it can come across like, I hate women and that's honestly not the case at all. But I say many times, like women, very easy to wind up at times, and they're the ones that spend more time on TikTok than their husbands. So if I'm using a platform like TikTok, I'm going to sometimes make my tiktoks for women because I know they're going to complain about it. They're going to sit and watch it and their husband is then going to hear it. So my videos, when I do the tiktoks, even though it's aimed at women, it's aimed because I know the husband's going to hear about this one way or another. And the things I say, it can come across very harsh. I do believe everything I say, but I will word it in a very, I guess, rude way at times because TikTok, you've got about 10 seconds before someone scrolls off that, if not shorter. So I'M going to say it in the most brutal way possible to get them watching the rest of that video.

[Chris Williamson]

Do you have many female friends?

[Bonnie Blue]

Yes, I do.

[Chris Williamson]

Okay.

[Bonnie Blue]

I know that can seem shocking. Or people say, what would you sleep with their husband? Or what do your friends think about what you say? But they hear like the long winded explanation of why I've said something. Or like, one of the big ones is, you know, about husband's cheating. And it was never your husband is cheating on you. It was just, if you're not having sex with him, he is probably going elsewhere and I will happily sleep with him. But it's never to say, look, I'm going to turn up at your house and drag your husband out, out of your home.

[Chris Williamson]

Would you feel a particular way if you'd found out that one of the people in the ski mask had been the husband of one of your friends?

[Bonnie Blue]

Yeah, I would obviously feel bad because I'd feel bad that their relationship had broke down a lot sooner before than what they would have realized for him to have been at one of my events. It clearly doesn't have a good communication with his wife.

[Louise Perry]

You see it as like a symptom of the relationship in crisis. Rather than you causing crisis.

[Bonnie Blue]

You will have some idiots and some men that will just cheat because they've cheated and they've got two brain cells if that. A lot of the time, though, someone cheats, there's a reason. There's a lack of communication, a lack of connection with that partner. It's, I'm not the one to blame. I've never forced them to be there. All I've done is put the message out and said, hey, would you like to have sex with me? No one is forced. No one is, you know, bribed to be there. No one's even paid. If a wife has ever been affected to have sex with her husband, it sounds rude, but it's. They need to look in the mirror. They need to look at the communication they're having with their partner. And I'm sorry, they're in a relationship that's not happy, but I'm not the one that's ruined that marriage.

[Chris Williamson]

That's true, but you would be able to say a person who's a recovering alcoholic or a person who just has a tendency toward addiction, it is smarter for that person to not be around alcohol all the time. And if there was some imposition by the government that put alcohol on every street corner, this person would find it more difficult to avoid that. It's far easier to Avoid temptation than it is to like to keep yourself away from it, than it, than it.

[Bonnie Blue]

Is to stop feeling it altogether makes it very easy.

[Chris Williamson]

And the increased prevalence of this, the increased advertising of this may cause people to think, oh well, what's wrong with that? Like it's more, it's more easily available. I can put the ski mask on.

[Bonnie Blue]

No one's going to find out for sure. It definitely is easy. I literally share the location. You just turn up. It'd honestly be easier for them to cheat on a night owl. Cheat when they're at work because they know when they turn up. Yes, they have a blue ski mask on, but they've got to bring their id, they've got to sign a consent form, they've got to take their mask off to fill in the consent form and fill in the form. So it'd be much easier for them to cheat elsewhere. And I think it's a lot more hurtful.

[Chris Williamson]

I'm not sure if it would be easier for them to cheat elsewhere. I think what's referred to in the industry as a clean kill, which is one that has no digital footprint when cheating on your partner is hard to be. Gimme your phone number, we'll meet up at the end of the night or there's the room key to the hotel that you've used or concerns about cctv. I get the sense that a lot of guys would see ski mask on, briefly take it off, fill the thing in, put it back on and get to do this as a repercussion free way to be able to cheat on their partner.

[Bonnie Blue]

Yeah, and I do get that. But for them to have been there, there's a reason if someone was really happy in their marriage, they wouldn't, they wouldn't have turned up. But I'm going to sort of contradict myself a little bit because I think sometimes people cheat and it's not because they don't love their wife or their kids, but their wife no longer has a high sex drive or they've had children and they feel a bit body conscious and no longer want to have sex and that's okay. But your husband probably doesn't feel the same. Your husband's probably still wanting sex and he doesn't want to sometimes hurt you by saying he no longer feels like he's being pleasured so he goes elsewhere to have sex, meaningful sex, he's just having it, he's not cheating, he's just. Well, he is, but it's not an affair. There's no text and there's no emotional connection. Literally coming to someone who's offering herself up and then going back to you. I think the years time people cheat and it's done not to hurt the wife, but if anything the opposite. Just to protect them and want to keep them happy in their own little bubble and not ever sort of pressure them and saying, look, hey, I want sex from you, else I'm going to go elsewhere.

[Chris Williamson]

Bonnie, I've heard you say that you can't condemn porn stars with your right hand while masturbating with your left hand. What do you mean that if someone was to tweet and say this is horrendous, how dare she do that whilst also being a user of porn? That seems like a little bit of hypocrisy. Is that a fair criticism to try and square that circle in a way?

[Louise Perry]

I think, I think what you do, Bonnie, not just in terms of the porn, but also in your attitude towards money and towards independence and like you. And actually egalitarianism, I mean when you talk about like, I'll take any man, I don't judge, whatever, there's something very progressive about that politically. Right. Like big, super, super egalitarian. What you do is you actually take a lot of these ideas that are present in the culture to their logical conclusion.

[Bonnie Blue]

Yeah.

[Louise Perry]

You say, well, okay, you tell me. The culture says that it's fine to be sexually liberated and to prioritize being an entrepreneur and to not worry about all this traditional hang ups. And you basically take that to its logical conclusion.

[Bonnie Blue]

Take it to the extreme.

[Louise Perry]

You do. And I think what, I think what happens a lot. One of the reasons I think you sort of rile people up is a lot of people who have a vague sense that that stuff is all good and fine and like they're kind of okay with sexual freedom and they're kind of okay with capitalism and egalitarianism. They see that taken and it's extreme and they go, oh, hang on, I don't like that.

[Chris Williamson]

So you're saying that Bonnie is like the reductio ad absurdum of the sexual revolution?

[Bonnie Blue]

Yeah.

[Louise Perry]

You hold up a mirror to the culture.

[Bonnie Blue]

I don't think it's what it is.

[Chris Williamson]

Is it fair to say that Bonnie is just the natural end result of modern feminism?

[Louise Perry]

Yeah. As well as other things too. But yeah, definitely. I mean, definitely the idea of prioritising sexual liberation above all else and not seeing, I mean, what you said about sex being a hobby, I think that is an important idea that come. The only reason we think that now is because we have reliable contraception. Obviously before that, you couldn't think of sex in that way because it.

[Bonnie Blue]

Well, especially women like they.

[Louise Perry]

Exactly, yeah. It's because the risks are so high for them. But since the sexual revolution, we've come to think, I mean, in a slightly schizophrenic way, I think that people actually often think contradictory things, but they often say, oh, yeah, whatever, sex, like, as long as everyone's consenting, that's fine. And then they see you, you doing exactly that. Everyone in the queue, in your queues is consenting, you're consenting and they don't like it. And one of the reasons I think that you're such notorious figure is because you, you actually invite people to look at those ideas and think, oh, wait, maybe actually that if I don't like what Bonnie Blue is doing, do I actually support sexual freedom?

[Bonnie Blue]

Yeah, well, they sort of say one thing and then contradict themselves within two seconds.

[Louise Perry]

Yeah.

[Bonnie Blue]

And I always say not everyone should do what I do and not everyone will enjoy it. And that's fine. Like, I just think, especially as women, if you want to do something, do it. As long as it's above board and legal and everyone's consenting, do it. Don't care about what people are going to say. Don't care about the backlash. Like, care about the backlash if you're going to struggle dealing with it. But if something makes you happy, especially as a woman, like, we're not restricted anymore, we can be independent.

[Louise Perry]

Well, a lot of people would say it shouldn't be legal.

[Bonnie Blue]

Yeah.

[Louise Perry]

Then they would try and stop you for sure.

[Bonnie Blue]

Everyone says I'm a, you know, I groom them to have sex with me. And then there's a massive argument because I don't pay the students I have sex with. And they said that's completely wrong. But then if I'd have paid them, they're suddenly a sex worker. And then these bribery involved. So it's. I honestly can't win. And I think that's why I just don't care so much as well. Because if I do one thing it's wrong and if I do the other, it's also wrong. And one of the main hate comments I get is, oh, if this was a guy they'd be arrested. If this was a guy, they'd be in prison for the belly. Legal stuff for sure. But teen category has always been the most searched category in adult content. But the only difference is it's always been the males that have been older. So all I've done is switch it. And now suddenly these women that don't care about these men saying they hate me because they're so concerned that if. Because if this was a guy, they'd be arrested and they think things should be equal. Is it. Just look in the mirror, Google, go online, you'll notice it's always schoolgirls dressed up. Even when I was young, for Halloween, we dress up a sexy schoolgirl. It was like, schoolgirl has always been a thing. And I'm not saying it's right or wrong, but don't cry about it being a schoolboy. If you've never had an issue with the schoolgirl, you do, of course, do.

[Louise Perry]

Stuff with schoolgirls as well.

[Bonnie Blue]

Yeah.

[Louise Perry]

Which is quite controversial.

[Bonnie Blue]

I don't have an issue with it. I never said I have. And people had a massive uproar when I did the schoolgirl as well. Yeah. Before it was an issue because it was the schoolboy. So it was like, you know what? I'll take both.

[Chris Williamson]

That's a good way to ensure that equality is reached across the sexes. Is it empowering that Bonnie can do this? The right to say it's empowering?

[Louise Perry]

I mean, I think that the whole. I don't like the word empowering. I think the whole idea of it. I mean, I think actually you demonstrate the problems with that whole idea that you clearly are being empowered, certainly financially and in terms of independence and all the stuff we've talked about. But. And I. And I believe you when you say that this is good for you and that you're happy and, you know, and the men in the queue are happy and whatever. I mean, there. Clearly there is collateral damage in terms of the wives and girlfriends, for sure. I was going to ask, have there been people, you know, who say lost jobs or got in trouble in some way from having come to one of your events? Because often they're not wearing masks.

[Bonnie Blue]

For sure. No. And a lot of people say, when these are, you know, they're 18 or they don't know what they're doing, or they're going to make a mistake or they're going to regret it when they apply for a job. And I've never known in a job interview, they say, hey, is this your penis? Is this. You know, was you entering Bonnie Blue on this day? Like, they're not going to see that. Maybe if you put your face next to mine and went for a job interview, it might come up in question. But a lot of these people are filming pov, especially the students. Most of them don't show their face. And even the ones that are like, oh, I am happy to show my face. If anything, I'll ask them not to because I want them to feel really confident. I want them to feel really comfortable in the situation. And, um. But, yeah, no one's going to give you a job interview, get up the sex tape and then go, that's your penis. And the other benefit of it is, I sleep with so many people. Even if they knew you slept with me, they're not going to be able to pinpoint your sex tape or they're never going to be able to prove it's you. Because I always make sure, unless they really, really want their face out there, I keep everything really confidential.

[Louise Perry]

So it's plausible that the amount of direct collateral damage that you're doing is quite low. I mean, there presumably will be some relationships that have failed and so on, but you. But you would say that that's because they had already failed and this was just the catalytic.

[Bonnie Blue]

Yeah, and it's not necessarily failed. Some relationships just don't work because as you grow older, you become different people. You have different interests or different hobbies. Like, it's not because a relationship has failed, just sometimes you're no longer meant to be with that person.

[Louise Perry]

Sure.

[Bonnie Blue]

So.

[Louise Perry]

But the direct harm that you're causing to yourself, to other people, you, is probably not that high. So then which. Which means that anyone who wants to condemn you on the basis of you harming people struggles a little bit. It's actually quite hard to point to someone who, like Bonnie Blue, has hurt.

[Chris Williamson]

What do you think the damage is? Where. Where is the damage? Coming into contact with the world, in your opinion?

[Louise Perry]

So I think the damage is cultural and social. I think it's. I think the damage is bigger and kind of harder to pin down. It's not like you can just point to this person. If the only thing you think that is important, then you can't really point to a single person and say, yeah, you know, but that's not my view of it. My view of it is that there's like a. You're contributing to a culture that regards sex as a meaningless hobby. And I think that that's bad in a broader way.

[Bonnie Blue]

I think you can have both, though, because I feel like I have very meaningful sex and then I can have some sex on camera. I've had some meaningful sex on camera as well. More when it's a boy girl scene. Because you're able to focus a lot more. It's a lot more intimate and you have A great connection with them. But each one of my either sex tapes or sex events are very different. There's a different meaning and a different purpose of it. But yeah, with the damage I sort of cause, it's always from women speaking, saying how hurt they are, even though I've never touched them, I've never done anything yet. The people that come to my events are nothing but grateful, polite, and say they've had a good experience. And a lot of these women that say, you know, I'm damaging you, skip two videos back. And they're giving me death threats. They're saying, I want to turn up to one of Bonnie Blue's events and leave a black and blue. I want to make sure she leaves in a coffin. And I'm like, you're the one in the wrong. I've never hurt anybody and I've never given anyone a death threat or said, I'm going to beat you up or leave you black and blue.

[Chris Williamson]

I think from what Louise is saying, it is very difficult to pinpoint. Okay, if we work very hard on consent and assume that everyone is allowed to take radical responsibility, including you, for what's going on, yeah, everybody is consenting. Unless there is some situation where a person is not fully of their mind or whatever the term would be over the age of consent, it is difficult to point at the first order consequence of this, but maybe downstream there is something that is moving the culture in a kind of direction. So I guess an interesting question on that is, can you imagine a world in which anything happened that would make you question what you're doing? Are there any sort of consequences or repercussions that you can think of that would cause you to second guess the stuff that you're doing?

[Bonnie Blue]

If the people I was having sex with was coming to me with issues or saying, look, it's ruined my life, or I'm really hurt by this, I regret it, it's a big mistake. Instead, I just see the same people a lot of the time at these events. So if the hate switched from the women that don't know me and are poorly educated to switch to the men that was at my events or the men I speak to online, I would really reconsider the way I do things, the way I approach things. But even with the whole barely legal things in the students, like the students themselves find it really funny. Like they know. They know I'm not walking around the streets going, oh my God, give me an 18 year old. They're walking, I get, I'm barely legal. And it's they find it funny because they're, they're not stupid. I mean you've got some 18 years that are 18 year olds that are, but you can be stupid at any age. They see how wound up because they're much better at technology and tick tock and everything than I am and especially their parents. So they see the backlash, me saying barely legal causes and they find it funny. Like I'll be walking down the street sometimes they're like, I'm barely legal, I'm a virgin, can I get, you know, can I skip the queue? So the people that say I'm very damaging towards 18 year olds and stuff, they're actually more intelligent than these people making the tick tocks because they know it's I'm not walking down the street and I'm grabbing them out of school or universities before we continue.

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[Louise Perry]

So a concrete example of yeah, not causing this individual harm but causing a wider kind of harm is when you did the thousand in, was it January? Yeah, it happened at the same time and obviously caused a lot of media response at the same time that grooming gangs were back in the news because of Elon Musk talking about it primarily. And then there was a, you know, the wrangling over whether it should be an inquiry and all this kind of stuff. And some people pointed out at the time it was not Deliberate on your part.

[Bonnie Blue]

Yeah.

[Louise Perry]

But what it contributed to you being in the news was this sense that British women are sluts. And that obviously fed into this whole discussion around grooming gangs and the feeling that the girls have been asking for it. Well, you know, we have the sexually liberated culture, you know, that's obviously the really, the really, really unsympathetic view that's taken towards the victims of these gangs. Do you feel like you end up feeding into that view of what British women are like?

[Bonnie Blue]

No, because I mean, I don't know how many women are in the uk, but there's a lot more than one. I'm one person out of the millions.

[Louise Perry]

You have this massive international reputation for sure.

[Bonnie Blue]

But I also get told all the time I was not normal. So I'm not. There's no part of me that believes I'm to blame if UK people are being called slots because I'm one person. I say, look, this is what I consent to, this is what I enjoy. Every single woman is so different. I even do hundreds of tiktoks saying how lazy women are and how much they don't want to give blow jobs. So I highlight the fact they're not sluts. They're quite the opposite, I suppose.

[Louise Perry]

I suppose that's true, yeah. Yeah.

[Bonnie Blue]

But yeah it is. I've been asked multiple times if I'm a cover up because the same time I've done something, something big's gone in the news and unfortunately it's been sort of pushed down because my presses, you know, been spoken about more and that's terrible. And these much more concerning things in the world to be highlighted and talked about.

[Chris Williamson]

Okay, you're saying that your sex events are false flags to try and drown out some more deserving apparently. Okay.

[Bonnie Blue]

I've been asked if I was a spy before as well. But yeah, like it's sometimes the timing's bad and I'm, you know, it's really unfortunate that sometimes my stories have been spoken about more than things that are honestly dangerous and damaging on society.

[Chris Williamson]

So your concern is there's a kind of propagandistic effect of the type of pornography coming out, out of the UK that might make it more attractive for foreign people to come here or for people who don't fully understand the culture to have an a sense they haven't been able to do what you've said, which is I keep on being told that I'm not normal. Something tells me that it isn't. The people who don't have an in depth understanding of what the culture is. Because the only way they can say that's not normal is to have something to frame it against. This is normal. This is not normal. This is an outlier. But if all you see is the tiny tip of the iceberg, when you're not delving that deep into culture, you just see what is the biggest story which happens to be you. And if it's consistently, to be honest, you and Lily Phillips, like you guys.

[Louise Perry]

It'S in the same part of the country as well.

[Bonnie Blue]

Yeah.

[Louise Perry]

It's a funny coincidence.

[Chris Williamson]

Is that a genuine concern?

[Louise Perry]

I mean, I'm not the only person to notice that the nature of porn is. It's mostly produced in the west and it mostly features white women and also East Asian women. But that's like, overwhelmingly. And I think that one of the things that does end up happening is men in other cultures watch porn. Everyone has a smartphone, everyone can see it, and they get the impression that this is what white women are like. And I mean, I know just personally, like, having traveled to parts of the world where you get the most, like, pornographic style of sexual harassment is what I have noticed. Like, I remember going to Morocco with a female friend and we got so much like lesbian porn related comments from the men, and I just thought, you're watching western porn, aren't you? And in your head, this is what white women are like.

[Chris Williamson]

White woman equals porn star.

[Louise Perry]

Yeah. And it ends up being like racist propaganda inadvertently. No one's designing it that way. But that is how it functions in terms of how it affects men's views of what women are like.

[Bonnie Blue]

Yeah. I think there's definitely a bigger picture at times. And I honestly, I'm not that knowledgeable, I'm not that educated on stuff that's going off in the world or things which, you know, people can escalate and blame me for. Like, I really am a very simple girl. It's. I have sex, I enjoy it, I film it, I post it, and I live my life. And I say all the time, I'm very selfish. I'm not too concerned about what's going off in the world. And that can be very bad. But I also think even if I was to sit here and really care, I'm not going to make a difference.

[Louise Perry]

Presumably you wouldn't want what you're doing to be criminalized because that's what you could say. You're just in it for yourself. Fine. But maybe there's a responsibility on governments to say, actually, this is so bad for the social fabric that we need to ban onlyfans. Ban the events. I mean, I know obviously you've come into contact with OnlyFans about some of your events.

[Bonnie Blue]

Yeah. If you was to ban it, they're then gonna go to other websites. Sex porn has always been there. So we're very naive to think if we banned OnlyFans and Fansly, that these issues are gonna stop. You're just gonna go to other platforms which don't have as many restrictions. At least with the platforms like Fansly, you have to up that many consent forms. It's a very strict process. If you're going to go to these other websites and the dark web and all these other places, you don't know what age that person is. You don't know about the consent situation or, you know, if someone's forced them to be there. But with the other platforms, it is not always safe. But especially from my side, it's a very safe environment.

[Louise Perry]

Although one of the things we've learned from the online Harms act coming in recently is actually that now men in Britain have to show. Have to jump this kind of ID hurdle to get access to women, too. Yeah, sorry, sorry. Persistence. Now I have to jump this ID hurdle. It means that actually the age restriction. Yeah. So you have to show your driving license or something to the. And obviously a lot of people don't want to give, say, pornhub.

[Bonnie Blue]

It's scary, like.

[Louise Perry]

Yeah. But what it's led to is actually a massive drop in porn consumption.

[Bonnie Blue]

Yeah. It was 47% on Pornhub. I saw that.

[Louise Perry]

So that does actually show that this is elastic. It's not like men are always going to seek out, like, a fixed consciousness.

[Chris Williamson]

The frictionlessness.

[Louise Perry]

Yeah.

[Chris Williamson]

Going to cause how much people access it.

[Louise Perry]

Yeah. And if it's harder to access porn, people will watch less of it. So I think the idea that, like, this is just. I agree to some extent that this is an inevitability. And even, you know, Roman wall murals featured pornography. You know, this is like a human eternal thing. But that doesn't mean that what you do is always going to happen when, you know, like, it is possible for governments to crack down on this.

[Bonnie Blue]

Yeah, it is. But I think, I mean, sex workers have helped reduce rape rates. They have they. Yes.

[Louise Perry]

Do you know, I know people always say that it's kind of like, I guess it could intuitively make sense, but it does assume that the reason. The only reason men rape is because of sexual frustration.

[Bonnie Blue]

No. There's obviously so many reasons. And, you know, I'm not intelligent enough to Name every single one. But having sex workers and having content available does help a lot of. A lot of women and make it a lot safer. But with like porn rates dropping, yeah, there might be 20 that no longer watch porn because they don't operate their ID and they don't want the inconvenience of it. And it's a bit of a headache. But there's still going to be a massive percentage of that that are now just going elsewhere. They're going to other websites and other platforms and it goes back to. Those platforms aren't as controlled and they're not as safe. And not just that, like education on sex should be a much bigger thing across all ages.

[Louise Perry]

I think that the idea that. So another example, I think, which challenges this idea, which is. Which is a common idea that men are always going to do this. They're always going to find a way. If they don't find it the safe way, they'll find the unsafe way, is surveys done. I can't think of the numbers off top of my head, but surveys done of countries which have different models in relation to street prostitution. So some countries that have the Nordic model which criminalizes the punters, and some countries which have decriminalized or legalized systems can often have. Like. Neighboring countries are very similar cultures can have really similar dissimilar rates of men who say that they've bought sex. Like a big gap in the proportion of men who say that they bought sex. And in cultures where it's completely legalized and normalized, it's common for, say, men to go to a brothel for a stag, do things like that. Whereas in countries where that's not legal, men just stop doing that. It doesn't mean they completely stop watching porn, they completely stop buying sex. But there is a culture change. People do start thinking that it's.

[Chris Williamson]

Is there correlation. Do you know if there's a correlation in those countries between sexual assault?

[Louise Perry]

Not to my knowledge. I mean, this is a hard thing to study. And this is always. And I've always said that when. Because obviously I'm critical of porn. Right, But. And I've always said, actually the strongest argument against my position, which people do occasionally put to me, is if you could absolutely prove that the existence of porn reduced rape for me, that would be the most compelling reason to not condemn pornography, 100%.

[Bonnie Blue]

I think it'd be the complete opposite. These guys, you know, and I don't know, but I'm just thinking of a scenario. But if a guy sat there and he feels really horny and, you know, he could be angry and he's worked up. If he's able to access on his phone, he's able to release himself. And a lot of guys, after they've released, they're like, you know what? They no longer have the urge. If they're getting themselves worked up, they're not able to access content. It's difficult to say where that might lead to.

[Louise Perry]

The problem is that sometimes, sometimes men who might start off having relatively normal sexual desires, or maybe their desires are a little bit weird or aggressive or whatever, but within the normal bounds, what porn can do, because obviously porn offers every possible imaginable variety of fetish everything is that they can start using the weirder stuff or maybe the more violent stuff or whatever. And they develop a taste for it, and they develop a taste for it and it's like they double down their taste.

[Chris Williamson]

Mary's Law of fap. Entropy.

[Louise Perry]

Right? And anecdotally, it's hard thing to study, but anecdotally, men, like, is primarily. Men do talk about this, that they might have had a little bit of an interest in something, but then the porn basically allows them to massively, massively grow that interest and little neural highways become motorways. And then all of a sudden, it's the only thing that gets them off and they get more and more extreme. And to some extent, the porn sites feed on that because they want the Pareto distribution guys. They want the guys who are the power users. Exactly. And I mean, that's not, I guess, quite as true with your stuff, because it's not like. Well, I mean, is it fetish material? Do you think? Is that.

[Bonnie Blue]

I say, like, some of it is the massive events, the gang bangs. But, Tony, in terms of, like, the sex world, there's some stuff I watch and it's like solo content. I'm like, oh, my God, that's crazy. Like they've just put this massive dildo up their ass. I'm like, that's insane. Whereas they'd watch me doing a gang bang. They're like, no, that's insane. So everyone's got different things which they class as a fetish or extreme. For me, I guess it is somewhat of a fetish. Like, gang banging isn't for everyone, but it's not a fetish compared to, like, some of the stuff I see online or some of, like the BDSM or some of the things which I deem crazy. But some people, that's probably normal.

[Chris Williamson]

You do lean towards rough sex and are sort of pro choking at least for yourself.

[Bonnie Blue]

Yeah.

[Chris Williamson]

Louise, I know that you've done work in the past around a particular loophole with regards to bdsm, choking, killings.

[Louise Perry]

Yeah. So I used to work for a campaign group. I'm only not working for it now. Only because we succeeded in our goal, which was to change the law. But there was a period where it was increasingly common for women to get killed by men. And then the men would claim that they'd consented to whatever had caused their death. So to say that, oh, I accidentally strangled her to death, but she did consent. And this was becoming more and more common as a defense tactic. And so men were often getting really short manslaughter sentences, when actually it could very well have been that actually this was just straightforward domestic violence. You had no way of knowing that this woman had consented to anything.

[Bonnie Blue]

I'd say the police, though, is not. I won't say that's purely porn's fault. I'd say a lot of that's the police. Like, they wouldn't just be. If there's a massive domestic violence, I know some guys could just lose it and kill their partners. But if that was the case, it was probably a build up. There's probably additional bruises, text messages, phone calls, other things which could say, like, it wasn't purely because they'd watched rough porn. I think domestic violence, there's a lot of other reasons and a lot more realistic reasons.

[Louise Perry]

Yeah. And I think often there were failures happening every stage and often different. Police or judges or juries were quite credulous and they didn't take seriously the alternative hypothesis for sure. But I think it was a clear example. It is. It's still an issue in other countries. Thankfully, since the law changed, we actually haven't really had. I don't think we've had any men attempting this defense tactic, but it was evidence, I think, of when rough sex and choking is normalized, all of a sudden you have juries who a generation ago would never have known anything about this. It would have been like a really weird, outside of their realm of experience thing, suddenly thinking, oh, yeah, that's plausible. Like, I know that, I know that all the, all the Zuma girls love being choked nowadays, for sure. I guess it makes sense that this would be the case. And I think that's a good example of how you can look at this just on an individual level and say, well, I'm consenting and I'm consenting, that's fine. But it can scale to having really destructive cultural consequences.

[Chris Williamson]

I do think trying to sort of, as I am sitting in the middle here and hearing in a world that pedestalizes radical responsibility, personal accountability, freedom, all that stuff, it is tough to come up with a first order pushback. It's like everyone's consenting. This is all allowed. That does seem to me to hold quite a bit of water, which is what happens when you start to move culture. What happens when guys start to think, well Bonnie Blue likes it and she's the most famous porn star in the uk. And then you get to a situation where I do imagine that girls could be traumatized by guys try dudes are nervous in the bedroom and they want to try and perform in a way that they think is going to make them attractive and masculine. And I'm gonna do the thing you go, it shouldn't have been that, like it wasn't that thing, that thing wasn't the thing you should have been doing. And that influence, that sexual culture influence. The reason that we don't tend to typically talk about it is that we don't try on sexual tactics the same way as we see somebody in a cool pair of cargo pants. That has only been a very recent invention that you would even be able to, you know, maybe your uncle that was kind of a little bit like chill would have said, oh well, you.

[Bonnie Blue]

Know, you can do this in the.

[Chris Williamson]

Bedroom or whatever and that's it. Maybe your older brother perhaps, I guess. But even that's a bit weird. So this world of sex, technique, influence and trends, I have to assume kind of really it's an Internet phenomenon, it didn't exist previously. And you are, you are going to be contributing to that.

[Bonnie Blue]

See, I disagree. I think the reason is like the porn I make, the consent is discussed on camera. When I'm talking about being choked, I always say, hey, can you choke me like this? Actually, can you do it a bit looser? And I've said from the start, some of these guys when I started doing 18 year old content, would come to me and do just that. They'd want to perform, they'd want to go really rough and they'd slap and choke and I'd be like, well hold on a second, you're actually hurting me. Now I'm confident enough to speak up, to say, hey, like just how guys try and perform and really impress the girls. Sometimes a lot of girls will just take it because they want to seem they want to impress the guys while make out they can take it.

[Louise Perry]

And there's so many anecdotal examples that I've heard of Girls who don't have your confidence and don't feel able to be assertive in that way and they'll have some, some guy choke them and they find it terrifying, particularly if it's someone you don't really know. You're like, is this guy going to murder me?

[Bonnie Blue]

Yeah. But they think, oh, I'm going to go along with it because it like looks, looks sexy or the guy thinks it's attractive. And yeah, I always say like in porn that's never discussed. And I do think that should change. It should be, look, in this video, normally you like watch American's Got Talent or Brit's Got Talent. It's like, don't try this at home. Or this is done by an expert. Pornhub or other platforms should say look within this content. That is extreme. The token is done in a safe environment and it's you want a jackass?

[Chris Williamson]

This content, this program contains strobe lighting effects.

[Louise Perry]

Yeah, but how many teenage boys did try what was on Jackass, Right?

[Chris Williamson]

Like everybody in my school for sure, despite saying this was done by trained professionals, do not try.

[Bonnie Blue]

But at least you, you sort of know because some of these people that watch porn, they're not intelligent or they don't know or they've gone from sex education at school, which middle aged teacher not been laid and you think, I'm not listening to anything you say. You might have had a quick chat with your parents, maybe your uncle or a brother has mentioned a few techniques. That's it. You feel as a guy, oh, okay. I just need to try and give this crazy performance. I'm gonna rough slapping, hair pulling and give her this crazy sex. And she probably doesn't like it. She's gonna be too nervous to say. But in the sex I have with these 18 year olds or sometimes older because they're not very experienced, I explain to them how I enjoy to be choked. How long to choke before. No, move your hand down a little bit and that's all left in. I don't edit that out, I don't crop it. You see that in the video. And discussing consent isn't weird. It's sexy. It's sexy to say to a guy, I really like it when you do this or can you do this? Or you know, stick another finger in. Whereas most porn, it looks like this most perfect art performance. And when I used to do porn, I used to do that. I used to edit out all the bits where I've had to stop and get some extra lube or about to switch positions because I thought it needed to look perfect and look like everyone else's porn. And then I realized when I started sleeping with 18 year olds how damaging that is. Even in terms of the fact I only slept with body shapes that no enough had perfect abs and big dicks because that was what's, you know, in the porn industry. Then when I realized how I guess lack of information is shared with these people, I was like, I'm going to keep all that in. It's not unsexy to not know how to pull hair or how to choke properly or the fact you can't get hard or the fact you finish really quickly. But it's made to seem unattractive because it's always cropped out and we don't talk about it.

[Louise Perry]

Would you ban that type of porn, the really fake style?

[Bonnie Blue]

No, but it should just come with a disclaimer. It's like a movie if you wanted to learn how to drive a car. You don't watch Fast and Furious to learn. Yeah, and it's also not damaging to watch that.

[Louise Perry]

But who's gonna make it have a disclaimer like do you think the porn industry should be regulated or do you think it should be for sure?

[Bonnie Blue]

I think a lot of it is. There's a lot of content I would like to do and I can't do because they're saying it doesn't agree. What like I'd love to be. Well, I wanted to be tied up in a glass box. Yes. And I loved the idea. I was consenting to it. Everyone that would have turned up would have been under understood my restrictions, my yeses, my nos. And that's another big thing as well. Yes and no's are discussed before you start a porn, a professional porn shoot. You go through every, you have a sheet and it has every single thing you could imagine, like fingering, hair pulling, slapping. And you go through that, that's never shown. You only see the end result. You see the perfect edited part. Whereas with my content it's very different, it's very, very consensual. And yes, he is choking, but it spoke about during it. Yeah, I think porn should be have restrictions and it should be told, hey, this was done by professional consent was discussed off camera. So then when these young guys are watching it and they go to have sex with another 18 year old girl that's probably not that confident going to speak up in the back of their head. They sort of know the porn they watched did discuss consent and they discussed each other's limits.

[Chris Williamson]

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[Louise Perry]

You admit that you're an unusual, you're an unusual person, you're an unusual woman. Like there are a whole bunch of ways in which your preferences, your personality is. You're like a far right tail on so many different traits.

[Bonnie Blue]

Yeah.

[Louise Perry]

Is it really true to say, therefore that when men watch your content they're learning about how they should have sex with other women?

[Bonnie Blue]

Not always, no. Like, my porn really varies. Like I've still done some of the cliche or I've had sex with my personal trainer and I've tripped and suddenly I'm having sex. Like, I still do some of the cliche porn, but a lot of my content isn't that. But I'm not also saying, oh, come and watch me for a sex education lesson and I wouldn't be the right person at this moment in time to educate properly on sex because I could say something which contradicts that, but I do think more things, especially porn or whether that's at school or university should be discussed about consent, sex, people's different limits, things they Enjoy. Because everyone gets embarrassed about the conversation. Your parents might say, look, don't have sex, or you have to wear a condom. And that's sort of as far as it goes. We're very naive to think, one, they're not having sex before 18, that they're not watching stuff online, and they don't know what they're doing. So teach them.

[Chris Williamson]

Nearly Two thirds, about 64% of men under age 25 support making it harder to access pornography online, up for 51% in 2013. If young people are becoming more conservative about sex and pornography, how come Bonnie is still breaking records?

[Louise Perry]

Well, I guess even though you earn so much money, like, you've still got. Your audience is not all men by any means. Right. You've got a fairly small number of men who are supporting you. I also sense there's this move against. From the younger men, there's this move, and women as well, against porn. And I suspect that that comes from the fact that these are, say, zoomers who've grown up on the Internet.

[Bonnie Blue]

What does zoomers mean?

[Louise Perry]

Like, born this century.

[Bonnie Blue]

Okay.

[Louise Perry]

They were brought up on the Internet. They were exposed to porn really young ages. I mean, it's often like, I think Average age is 11 for boys. Something like that.

[Bonnie Blue]

Crazy.

[Louise Perry]

And so. And they've often been exposed to really extreme stuff, and it's. It's damaged them psychologically and sexually in that they. I mean, like what we were talking about earlier with sometimes weird tastes escalating, but also often, say, struggling with erectile dysfunction when you're actually in the room with, like, if you've trained yourself on porn and on your own hand.

[Bonnie Blue]

Yeah.

[Louise Perry]

When you're then in the room with a real woman, you might not be.

[Bonnie Blue]

Able to get it up for sure.

[Louise Perry]

Or having unrealistic expectations, just not being able to find normal women as attractive because you've become used to watching women like you. And I think that a lot of men have just learned from their own personal experience and just purely selfishly, like, regardless of the. Whether or not porn is fair trade, they've learned that actually it's bad for them.

[Bonnie Blue]

Yeah.

[Louise Perry]

And it's probably bad for everyone. Like, I mean, when it comes to porn addiction, for instance, I wouldn't wish it on my worst enemy. It's a terrible thing.

[Bonnie Blue]

Even with porn, like you mentioned, then they think unrealistic body shapes because they're looking at these women that. No, we do it for. For a job. Well, it's not a job in most people's eyes, but they also shouldn't do that though, because that's stupid. Because probably the porn they're watching, their penis is probably half the size of that and nor do they have a chiseled fish six pack. So, yeah, it is terrible when some guys can no longer get hard because they've watched so much porn or they have unrealistic expectations of women and they shouldn't because, one, they don't. Most probably don't perform like a porn star. But I'm not saying porn's the answer for everything. It's. There's a much bigger issue problem, but I don't think banning porn is the solution of that. I just think it should be better regulated. And more conversations about just sex in general. Whether you can't get hard, you struggle to stay hard, you come really quickly, or maybe you don't come at all. It should just be more of a conversation and less taboo, so people become less embarrassed by talking about it.

[Louise Perry]

But should people watch more porn? Because there's quite a big chunk of the population that don't watch porn at all.

[Bonnie Blue]

Probably more varied porn. You shouldn't always just watch one type of porn.

[Chris Williamson]

That's not going to be the issue, though. If you're talking about people who are being educated and getting used to sex in general, a power user or even a normal user of porn, I'm not convinced that they need a varied diet. What we're talking about is like one big group of people who don't use porn at all, and then this other group of people who, some of whom continue to use it healthily and then some of whom sort of tumble down these darker rabbit holes.

[Bonnie Blue]

You could say that with anything. Alcohol, chocolate, like it's. You can't summarize what one person can do. I could easily have a couple of drinks and stop another person. Can't do that. They're gonna, you know, finish the whole bar or.

[Louise Perry]

Gambling might be a good comparison because obviously gambling is legal in this country, but we know that there are. It hasn't always been. There's been periods where it's been banned. And there are certain things which are banned, like the really sort of predatory end of the gambling industry. And we know that things like the apps can be really addictive and people ruin their lives gambling, like, they'll lose the family home, their marriages will break down, everything. And so I certainly think there should be regulation. I think most people do. If you're, you know, I guess in this comparison, like, you're like the gambling boss who owns. Who owns the app. That's like Normalizing this, bringing this into everyone's homes. Like is there not some sense of responsibility? Like he's, he's obviously just, he's playing by the rules, he's obeying the law. But it's not.

[Bonnie Blue]

If I had a subscriber saying to me, like, look, I've spent so much money on you this month, I'm gonna, I can't afford to pay my mortgage. I can't afford the food shop 100%. I'm like, look, let's just chat. Stop spending so much money. I clearly want you to be able to pay your bills and do your food shop. So yeah, when I'm speaking to, to guys online and they'd, you know, just sometimes disclose very personal information with me, I would never want to put them in a difficult or vulnerable situation. But I can't be responsible.

[Chris Williamson]

Have you got on that? Have you got an opinion on the financial domination industry? Are you familiar with this about where like.

[Bonnie Blue]

Yeah, so like girls will like a guy will pay for a girl's life and then like completely rinse their bank account?

[Chris Williamson]

Yeah. I mean it goes even more extreme than that. That the end of this is typically guys will get their paycheck and then immediately send all of it to a girl.

[Bonnie Blue]

Yeah.

[Chris Williamson]

Who drip feeds money back to him as he begs for his own money back.

[Bonnie Blue]

Oh yeah.

[Chris Williamson]

Now it's this very odd. Is this consent? Is this an addiction? Like you are trans this to them A lot of the time the girls that are doing this will have compromising material. I know a friend that was at university with me who was doing this with a guy and she had videos of him coming in a cheeseburger and then eating it. And he was married. He was begging her to have one pound so that he could put some fuel in the car. And she says there's 50p. Get the bus to work. And his bank account has nothing in. His wife is completely unaware that this is happening. Again with that consenting adults, this seems to be, you know, I'm trying to find where your limit.

[Bonnie Blue]

Yeah. Like morally for me, I wouldn't be happy with that. But that's so much used the word.

[Louise Perry]

Moral in this conversation.

[Bonnie Blue]

Yeah, morally like that's not for me. That isn't something I'd enjoy. I wouldn't like that. I'm not doing this for power.

[Chris Williamson]

You know what's interesting that a lot of what you talked about in the very beginning, your justification was around finances. So we may have managed to find something close to the bullseye of where your sort of Sensitivity sits, which is.

[Louise Perry]

Don'T make people poor. Chr.

[Chris Williamson]

Yeah, you may play with my private parts, but not my bank account type thing.

[Bonnie Blue]

This was. I just want people to be happy. But then it's weird I say that because that guy clearly enjoys that. And I have got some friends that will absolutely rinse guys for money and their sort of argument, which is true. If it wasn't them, it'd be someone else and at least then they know they're going to do it in a very controlled situation. But for me, I just wouldn't feel comfortable with that. And everyone is really different.

[Chris Williamson]

You found a limit. Congratulations.

[Bonnie Blue]

For me, I just. It stressed me out and it wouldn't sit comfortably with me. Loads of things will. I'll take virginities, I'll sleep with 18 year olds. And those girls would probably say, God, that's disgusting. I wouldn't feel comfortable with that. But for me I'd be stressed and be going to sleep thinking, oh my God, like what if the wife needs to buy some emergency shoes?

[Chris Williamson]

What do you think that Bonnie has lost by doing what she does?

[Bonnie Blue]

Aside from dignity, has she lost anything?

[Louise Perry]

You've lost some future choices. Obviously you've gained a lot of choices in terms of your finances, but there are now all sorts of things. Like you couldn't become a teacher, would just be one example.

[Bonnie Blue]

No, imagine how irritating that would be. What, a salary of 25k in 20 days, annual leave.

[Louise Perry]

I'm guessing you wouldn't necessarily want to, but there are certain things, if you ever end up having children, I mean, have you thought about that, the impact that that will have on them in terms of everyone knowing what their money is.

[Bonnie Blue]

I've not thought about it really deeply. It is a question I've been asked before. I would like children in the future. I think, yes, it's going to be difficult and horrible for them for sure at moments, but they're also going to have the most beautiful life. And I know money doesn't buy happiness, but it will buy me so much time with them. I know for most of my friends that still work, their children go to childcare full time. They miss their first step, their first words. They can't be there for all their school holidays. They only go on one quality holiday a year and for some people that's fine, but when I, if I'm lucky enough to have children, I'll be able to take them around the world. They'll be able to.

[Louise Perry]

You'd be a stay at home mum.

[Bonnie Blue]

Yeah, I'd be more than happy to be a stay at home mom only.

[Louise Perry]

Fans to trad wife pipeline for sure. Yeah.

[Bonnie Blue]

And I have no issue with that. But for me, the memories I'd be able to give my children and even in terms of healthcare and the life they'd live and the security they'd have, they'd be able to do whatever they want in their life as well. They'd have enough money to either invest or never work if they don't want to work. Or maybe they want to do charity work or like a lot of people, when you like sort of don't have money, you sort of just go into a job. But if you actually had all the money, you'd be take a lot longer I think in choosing what you want to do or what you want to achieve with your life. And I'll be able to offer my children that. But of course it's going to come with backlash and comments. But whether you're too pretty, you're ugly, skinny, fat, your mum might drive a weird car, kids get bullied on. So I think it would be stupid.

[Chris Williamson]

There are levels to this game though for sure.

[Bonnie Blue]

Like oh my God, your mum's Bonnie blown. She sat with a thousand people. But it's yeah, they will get picked on.

[Chris Williamson]

What do you reckon, what do you reckon is the percentage likelihood of you having a family in future?

[Bonnie Blue]

I'd say quite high. I'd say very likely. Before I was very fixated on having children and having a family because I, because of society thought, okay, you sort of finish school, maybe you go to university, you get a job, you find a partner, you get married, you get a house, you have a couple of children and that's what I just thought life was. And as a whole, that is if someone said you write describe life, that is what you would sort of say. That's also what you're made to believe happiness is. Everyone looked at me because I had all of that before, but no children, thinking, God, you must be so happy. You live the most amazing life. And I thought, thought I'm with the wrong person. Like I'm happy but I'm not in love with him. Or I live this life and it looks perfect but it's not for me. And yeah, it took me a while to realize that, but I've realized it and that's the main thing.

[Chris Williamson]

Do you think you'd have taken the same path in life if you'd had kids with your ex husband?

[Bonnie Blue]

I probably would have done some sort of separate sex work later on, but probably not. When the children were still young and I probably would have lived off my husband's wage for a few years, would have gone to go back to work. I thought, you know what, I don't want to. I want flexibility. Because that's the other thing this, you know, sex work offers. You don't have to be very public with it. Like when I did cam work, I could have done that and no one would have known. Or you don't even have to show your face or you could wear a mask. Like, sex work isn't always extreme. There's a lot of people that do sex work alongside a normal job and no one ever knows. It's just a bit of extra cash so they can go on nicer holidays. Yeah, I probably would have always done it because it gave me instant flexibility. And I know you could do multiple other things and get that, but it's also not very realistic.

[Louise Perry]

What's the, what's the biggest downside from you being famous? I've heard you talk about not really going out alone anymore, for instance.

[Bonnie Blue]

Yeah, like I have security, but that's. I think that got sort of not twisted, but people thought it's because people are horrible to me or it's, you know, I can't go out without someone shouting something negative is the complete opposite is because I can't walk anywhere without people swarming me for photos. People coming up saying, hi. And that's men and women families. The women are probably, I say, the worst. They're the ones that are coming up non stop. I even have mums with children under the age of 18 saying, can you grab a photo for my son? Or can we grab a family photo with you?

[Chris Williamson]

What do the women say that aren't the mums with the kids under 18.

[Bonnie Blue]

A lot of screaming like, oh my God, I can't believe it's you. Oh, I love your content. I love your videos. I've seen you online. It's honestly, I've received near enough zero hate in person.

[Chris Williamson]

Surprising. Louise.

[Louise Perry]

I think it's not surprising in person because I think in general people, most people don't want to be negative to someone in the flesh.

[Bonnie Blue]

Like, if you probably see me say hi, then they're like, oh, I fucking hate that girl. Like, I'm not saying that they're talking positively about me, but even some of these families, and some of these families, I literally slate online saying, yeah, you stay at home, you don't do anything, you complain. And then I sometimes I was at the airport recently and I saw a family and it looked like the exact family. I mean, this is me judging that I slate online. I thought, oh, here we go and there's quite a out, you know, speaking very loud. And I thought they're gonna say something and instead there's like, oh my God, can my husband grab a photo with you? Oh, we find you so funny. And it just makes me realize like the hate you get online. I'm probably the most, one of the most hated people in the uk, if not, you know, across all countries at times. But in person I am very much loved. So the security isn't because I can't leave the house scared, it's just because I need to be able to get somewhere and I get completely swamped for photos.

[Chris Williamson]

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[Louise Perry]

Chris and I were talking earlier about the fact that we're both very like, we don't like negative feedback. We don't, we're quite, we're quite sensitive, right? Like we don't. And for me I find this, your ability to just withstand that level of, to say something like, I'm probably the most hated woman in Britain and be quite chill about It I find almost as confusing as your ability to not be repulsed by a bunch of ugly men.

[Bonnie Blue]

I don't know where it's come from. I don't.

[Chris Williamson]

Were you always like that?

[Bonnie Blue]

No, I'd say I've not always cared what people thought, but I've never been this much, you know, oblivious. Well, not oblivious, but so much I don't care.

[Chris Williamson]

Flipping about it.

[Bonnie Blue]

Yeah, Like, I don't know where it's come from. And my sister, she's really sensitive. Like, one of the hate comments the other day was like, oh, that bedsheet. I did like, a day in the life vlog, and I was at home, they said, oh, her bedding was from Sheen, and it made her cry. Like, she's very sensitive. Like, she really likes that bedding.

[Chris Williamson]

Okay.

[Bonnie Blue]

But, yeah, I'm just not bothered. I think it's because I know I'm happy. I know everyone I sort of work with, speak with, are happy. So I'm like, why am I bothered about hate comments? And one of the biggest comments I get is that, oh, I'm actually 47, and I think, how am I gonna be bothered about you judging my age or. Or recently went viral that I'm apparently transgender. And all these hate comments I just completely made up, and I find it more amusing than I do hurtful. Do you ever get.

[Louise Perry]

I know. I personally, the criticisms that I dislike the most and criticisms that I think are probably true when they're ridiculous, I think, or whatever, but when they're a bit close to the bone, they hurt more. Are there ever criticisms you get which do sting a little bit because they're a bit true?

[Bonnie Blue]

I mean, I get called flat chested and stuff a lot sometimes. And yeah, I have got small boobs, but. But I'm not bothered by that.

[Louise Perry]

I think, do you have body anxieties? Because obviously you're just like, endlessly naked on film.

[Bonnie Blue]

Well, like the top I was men aware today was strapless, but I have eczema sometimes on my arms. I was like, oh, actually, I don't fancy wearing that today. It's like, I clearly do care, but not to the point where I used to. Like, when I first moved to Australia, I actually wore a lot of oversized T shirts. I didn't always want to go to the beach. I felt quite insecure and I was sort of bothered yet when I started this job. And bear in mind when I did that, no one cared what I looked like. No one was giving me hate. No one was saying anything yet when I started this job, even Though I started receiving hundreds and hundreds of hate comments, I became more confident than ever because the positive for me outweighed every negative comment.

[Chris Williamson]

You are aware that that's very non typical for humans, right? That we remember the criticisms and forget the compliments. We have a negativity bias. And it seems like you've managed to do some sort of Gryffindor only drinks in that, which makes it stronger thing.

[Bonnie Blue]

Yeah.

[Chris Williamson]

And yeah, like Brazilian Jiu jitsu, what for most people would be a catastrophic amount of criticism.

[Bonnie Blue]

Yeah.

[Chris Williamson]

Do you think you get more hate than love online?

[Bonnie Blue]

Yes, for sure. In person, completely different. But it depends what platform you go on. Like, my Twitter is very positive, but if you go on like TikTok, especially like my backup accounts or my, like my main accounts is very positive, but you go on my additional accounts, they're very negative. So it really depends what you're sort of clicking on. But there's not many things I, I want people to take away from me. But it's just, don't care. Don't live your life by judgment. And it's like when you went to school, I don't know if you ever fell out of your friends or you was like, oh my God, my friend at school today I'm gonna be sat by myself at lunch. And your parents like, look, just don't care what people think or you're just at school, it doesn't matter. And then you come away from school and you realize how, how silly you was to a certain degree for caring about what people thought about you at school and if they thought you was popular or not in the popular group yet even though you realize looking back, that was silly to care, then you then suddenly care about what your colleagues think about you at work. And then when you leave that job, you realize how insignificant to a certain degree their opinion was. But then you keep continuing to stress about your current surroundings. But I don't care. And that is genuinely, I think one of the best things about me is it is. I'm not. I say I am sensitive, but I'm not sensitive to the point of I'm aware that I'm never going to look back on my life and go, I wish I cared about, I wish I cared less about what people thought about me. I'm already in that mindset. And for most people, they can't do that. They're worried about what the colleagues think or what the family think or what someone they went to school with is going to say about their new car or their job. They're in.

[Louise Perry]

I mean it's such a natural human instinct though to care about your, your peer group and about, I mean something that I've often said is that there are various ways in which men and women are different from one another psychologically and personality wise and stuff. And even though there are obviously individual outliers, there are quite big average differences. And so for instance, women are less keen on casual sex than men are on average. And that means that a culture of casual sex is on balance going to be worse for women and better for men.

[Bonnie Blue]

I think because men focus so much on them a lot of the time in the bedroom. If it's a one night stand. Yeah. They're just thinking, I think because men physically come as well. Yeah. It's sort of so focused on, on them and a lot of women, like especially myself when I first started, I didn't feel confident enough to speak up, to be like, actually, can you do it a bit softer? Can you, you know. Yeah, go a little bit to the left.

[Louise Perry]

It's partly that, is also partly that actually most women do have, most women do not fancy, like really do not fancy the vast majority of men.

[Bonnie Blue]

Yeah.

[Louise Perry]

Like they do not want to have sex with the vast majority of men. Their threshold is really high in terms of who they're willing to, to, to sleep with. And you're of course not like that, as we've discussed. But I've always said like I don't think that our current sexual culture is on balance very good for women in general.

[Bonnie Blue]

Yeah.

[Louise Perry]

But that I, I, I believe that there surely is like some unicorn woman out there who is perfectly suited to the sex industry. And I think maybe you're it. Like I think you've got every trait necessary in order to withstand it and do well by it. I guess the problem is, is not everyone. You have to spend a long time talking to you to realize that that's true and to realize quite how unusual you are. And because I feel bad when other.

[Bonnie Blue]

Sex workers try and either do the same or think, God, for me to be a successful sex worker I need to do that. And that's like Lily Phillips, right.

[Louise Perry]

Who I think we all agree is suffering from this. Actually you're a real one in maybe 7 billion kind of.

[Chris Williamson]

You are kind of like the LeBron James of sociosexuality and disgust sensitivity.

[Bonnie Blue]

So if I ever find a boyfriend, I'll have to tell him I'm wanting 7 million.

[Louise Perry]

7 billion. 7 billion. Yeah. But I mean you do get quite a lot of backlash from people within the porn industry, right?

[Bonnie Blue]

Oh, yeah, Most of them hate me. Yeah.

[Louise Perry]

Why do they hate you?

[Bonnie Blue]

1. I've made their fake fucker fan content so irrelevant. They used to think, oh, faking I've had sex with one stranger was going to be the biggest thing of their career. And I've sort of just highlighted one, it was fake. And second of all, it's, I'll do a thousand. Shut up about your one. But they just say I'm. Some of them have said I've promote rape culture, that it's dangerous, it's making their subscribers ask for more extreme content. And I get that and I do feel sorry for them. But if things are changing or your subscribers are no longer interested in you, that's not my fault. That's. That's a you problem. Like, you can't blame me for everything.

[Chris Williamson]

I mean, it is difficult if you say sex is a resource to be traded like any other, and then capitalist market dynamics get applied to that which you have stepped into. It is very difficult to say I should not be subject to the same supply, demand and competition curves that every other industry is if you accept that going in. I think the problem is that people get this sort of crossover and this is something that Mary's written about, which is the world is at a weird intersection at the moment, that sex is simultaneously completely meaningless and can be done casually and doesn't have anything beyond the physical action attached to it. You can sleep with him and not catch feels. And also, if done incorrectly, can be the single most traumatic event of your life that never changes, that you're never able to recover from. And squaring the circle is difficult. And I think this is where it kind of meets when you actually see the raw economics of this, that you think, well, if consenting workers within that industry are having to up their consensual work ethic, work rate, level of work extremity, it would be like having a salesperson who is particularly unbelievable at sales because of one specific tactic. But this tactic is very taxing on their body and very few people can go and do it. And now everybody else has got to try and do the same sales tactic. Yeah, it is difficult to come up with some sort of ethical grounding where you can defend that that isn't permissible within the rules that that system already had. Does that make sense? Is that, do you agree with that?

[Louise Perry]

I mean, I honestly sort of think that actually, as someone who is critical of porn and sex, sexual revolution and everything, you are almost doing my job for me because you're highlighting, you're taking everything to its logical conclusion and highlighting that there are fundamental problems with this worldview. You're like, it's very hard for. There's a lot of people who say that they are in favor of sexual liberation and pornography and so on, but they're not in favour of Bonnie Blue.

[Chris Williamson]

It is the reductio ad absurdum thing for everything.

[Bonnie Blue]

So I do think you can be and then see me as too far. Like I also think that's fine. Like I'm not saying you could agree with porn and suddenly you see me, it's gonna be limousine. You have to agree. Like you can completely agree with porn and then look at me and think that's too far. And that is okay. Everyone's got are their own opinions. It's just when people try to give me facts, I'm like, you're not speaking factual, you speak an opinion. But yeah, there's many, many issues with the sort of, I guess, industry and a lot of content creators say, you know, I, they're just no longer relevant. And that's, and that's my fault. But it's not. I get social media banned all the time. I get new restrictions. I have new issues and probably more issues than any other sector worker because I'm so big and so outspoken. I get bans that other content creators don't get just because they don't have the techniques. I do, but I adjust and I change and that's what you should be doing with any job or any situation you're in. If you're hitting restrictions, work around it or you change your technique.

[Chris Williamson]

Are you worried about Bonnie as a mother?

[Louise Perry]

I would definitely worry if you were still doing it.

[Bonnie Blue]

Yeah.

[Louise Perry]

I mean certainly like bringing punters into the home. I'm guessing you probably wouldn't do that.

[Bonnie Blue]

No. Like even now I never film at home. I always film at a venue and I have filmed at home before, but I no longer enjoy that. I was like, no, I know what my home is. You know, I want to keep my home, my home. And I want to be able to separate from then. Not that I've ever needed that separation, but I'd always liked the fact if I needed it. I'm not somewhere where I think, you know what, I've just been gang minded on this sofa, a separate place. And I can, if I need a break, I've got the opportunity to have that.

[Louise Perry]

You could probably go quite a long way in sort of transforming your identity to protect the kids from the backlash at school. Different. I Mean, Bonnie Blue obviously isn't your real name anyway. Right. But how are you going to talk to them? How would you talk to them about what? How you're living, how you've got this amazing house, you know.

[Bonnie Blue]

No idea. But we're very early age. I know that'd be a very young age for them because. Because whatever age you think you're. Either kids start swearing or they start saying different things at the playgrounds or start watching content. It's probably a lot younger. So it would really depend on the society at that moment in time. Like you said, the current age is 11. That might go even, even younger. I don't know how the conversation would go, to be honest. I don't know what would be. You know, depends how long, if I'm no longer in the industry, how much is still out there, how much I'm still being spoken about, how much I would have to disclose. I definitely would want to disclose everything. I'd never want anyone telling my children or surprising them with what I do. I'd want them to hear it from me. And that's sort of how I deal with my family at the moment. Anything I plan to do or anything I do, they hear it from me. Even with. I did a documentary recently and it showed a lot of sex. It showed a lot of the gang bangs, a lot of the things I get up to. And I actually took my family to the screening and some of the journalists was disgusted that my. I'd taken my family there and it was hard to watch it with them. For sure, it was.

[Louise Perry]

Did you know it was gonna be as explicit as it was?

[Bonnie Blue]

I'd watched a rough edit and I knew there was gonna be sex in there. I did not know it was gonna be as explicit as it was. And I was thinking during it, like, I was sat next to my dad, my grandma was there, my mum, my sister, her boyfriend. And there was times where I couldn't look at the screen. I had my head.

[Chris Williamson]

Why? What was that sensation that came up for you?

[Bonnie Blue]

It was me showing my pussy, saying, I've just been railed by X amount of people.

[Chris Williamson]

No, that's what was on the screen. What was the sensation that came up for you when you were sat in the seat?

[Bonnie Blue]

I just felt a bit sick. And it wasn't because of what I'd done, it was just. This is the first time my family have really been exposed to this. Right now when they're sat front row in, like this cinema room and they've got journalists behind them, I'm Trying.

[Chris Williamson]

I'm gonna just keep my sort of foot on this point for a second.

[Bonnie Blue]

Yeah.

[Chris Williamson]

Beyond feeling sick, I, I. What was the emotion that came up? Like, what did you. What was the feeling? What was the sense beyond physically how it manifested in your body?

[Bonnie Blue]

I was just hoping, like, my dad was okay.

[Chris Williamson]

Like, I think, again, that's not an emotion.

[Bonnie Blue]

Yeah. But I. Apart from literally feeling sick and thinking like, oh my gosh, I hope my dad's okay, that was all that was going through my mind and what I.

[Louise Perry]

Was feeling, what were you worried he might feel?

[Bonnie Blue]

Feel, I don't know, like potentially be disgusted. Potentially think this is humiliated.

[Louise Perry]

Yeah. You mentioned front row. So they've got journalists looking at them. So was that feeling of, like, exposure behind?

[Bonnie Blue]

Yeah, it was. It was hard. And I would just like, I always want to protect my dad. Like, my dad is super sweet and I, I don't wrap them in bubble wrap at all. They're fully aware of what I do and to the extreme. And they're fully, fully supportive. Yeah. During the whole documentary, I was sort of like, oh, I felt so nervous. I just wanted to say to him, like, how do you feel? Are you okay?

[Chris Williamson]

Like, okay, so you did feel nervous there. I'm the reason, the reason that I say it is I want my family.

[Bonnie Blue]

To be proud of me. And I was worried them seeing that might take that, Taking that feeling away. But there was other parts of documentary. My mum, dad, my grandmother, all laughing. They're finding it funny and they're happy. And the other parts, they just looked away. But I'm really glad they watched it because their friends are gonna have watched it. Everyone in that town would have watched it. And if anything was to say anything to them, they're not gonna be shocked or surprised because they've watched it and they know what to expect. And that's how I'd. I guess I would treat my children is just always being very transparent with them and sort of not hiding things from them because I know know they'll find out.

[Louise Perry]

How do you feel about your daughter doing what you do for a living?

[Bonnie Blue]

If I had a daughter, I would explain. Look, I'm very different. Most people are going to be very hurt by this. They're not going to be able to deal with this mentally and physically. But if they wanted to do that, I would not disown them. I wouldn't be like, no, don't do it. Like I said, the main reason I got into it originally was money. Yes, that has shifted. But that they would have so much Money and so much opportunity to do anything they wanted. And not many people are like me, so I can't imagine my daughter would want to do it just because, you know, not many people do.

[Louise Perry]

You're the LeBron James of Paul.

[Bonnie Blue]

Yeah, but if they did do that, as long as they understood it's not. Cause I think sometimes I make it look very easy. I make it look like it's a breeze in the park. And because for me, that is. And I think that's what can be damaging on society or it can be hard for people online because they see me getting going, oh, I earn loads of money and I'm really happy and I love my life. Most people try and copy it. They're traumatized, the families are upset. So, yeah, it's just making them aware. It's. I do say it's easy because I think of my dad working hard. He worked two jobs, he worked night shifts, he had to work in terrible weather conditions. I'm like, that's hard work. Me lying on my back ain't that hard. So it's not hard, but it is hard.

[Louise Perry]

I was just thinking of that scene in Blackadder. Do you remember in Blackadder goes the second series, the Tudor one, where it starts off with a man who's saying, oh, daughter, we're so poor, blah, blah, blah. And she says, yes, father, I'm going to go to London, I'm going to make my fortune. He says, no, I want you to go on the game. Just make a living lying on your back. It's so much easier. What would you think about your son having sex with a future Bonnie Blue, aged 18, losing his virginity?

[Bonnie Blue]

Yeah. No, I'd be recommending it.

[Louise Perry]

You'd be recommending it?

[Bonnie Blue]

100% 18 year olds, when they lose their virginity, it's an unsafe environment. They've probably been drinking, they're under the influence, they haven't discussed consent, they haven't discussed the choking, the hair pulling and all of that. And that can be damaging for him. The next day it could be the girl comes forward and says, you hurt me. Or it can just be damaging for them because they're made to feel insecure or they're laughed at for whatever reason. Them being sent to a sex worker is a very safe, controlled environment.

[Louise Perry]

Would you worry about your son because you've said you're an outlier? Would you worry about your son contributing to the trauma of that woman? Because most sex workers are not like you personality.

[Bonnie Blue]

I probably want to know who they're going to. Because you could also go to a sex worker that's just an escort and they don't do the crazy things I do or like. I mean every single person is different and I'd wanna, I'd wanna help them because yeah, I wouldn't want them to go into someone that absolutely hates it and it's is doing it purely for the money and they feel traumatized from it. So I'd want to help the guy and make sure they go to a good sex worker.

[Louise Perry]

What would you say if your children of either sex.

[Bonnie Blue]

Yeah.

[Louise Perry]

Say they became religious and they decided that actually they wanted to wait until marriage to lose their virginity and do it the traditional way. What would you say to that choice?

[Bonnie Blue]

That's fine. Like I think it. Sometimes it's lovely when people are really religious. I don't have an issue with it. I don't. I personally. They will never be religious, but yeah, if they wanted to, they would never say never.

[Chris Williamson]

Bonnie. That might be the new challenge I'm.

[Bonnie Blue]

Burning in this building right now. But it's yeah, if they became religious, I mean I can't imagine my children would, but if they did, that's fine. I think those that do, I think, oh my God, that sex you've thought about for about, I don't know, 25 years is going to be terrible and isn't going to be good.

[Chris Williamson]

I remember you, I think you were quoted in an article saying I have never confirmed I was pregnant because I would never ever lie about pregnancy. Bonnie added saying that doing so would be a step too far. Yeah, there doesn't seem to be many lines where you would draw and say this is a step too far with your self promotion, with the things that you would do, the things that you would say. You've already mentioned. I curate my TikTok 10 second hooks to be as annoying to women as possible. What is it about pregnancy that's sufficiently sacred that I would never ever lie about it? Doing so would be a step too far.

[Bonnie Blue]

I tried for many, well about a year and a half with my partner to get pregnant and I was unsuccessful. And I found out if I wanted to conceive it'd have to be through ivf, which was really hard, especially at the time. I would not have had the money to go through ivf. I would have had to save up for a couple of years. And when your friends around you are having children and everyone's falling pregnant. So naturally it was very hurtful to continue to try and even buy all the ovulation tests to help my Chances it was really expensive and I couldn't afford to keep doing it. So, yeah, the press, in a nutshell, I think this was shortly after the thousand was there was rumors saying I was pregnant. It started off on TikTok, then it was on Twitter and then Instagram.

[Louise Perry]

Lily Phillips was doing the same thing, if I remember correctly.

[Bonnie Blue]

Well, yeah, the rumors had started about me on Tick Tock and all these other social media platforms. And then journalists started reaching out saying, we wanna, we want you to comment on your pregnancy. And we just ignored it for a couple of days thinking, well, we're not commenting, I'm not pregnant. I don't know where this is coming from. And it just continued to escalate. So then I decided, okay, let's play into this and then we'll use the extra income we get get from the more press, the more views to put towards somebody's IVF journey. So the only thing I did do was upload a photo on my Instagram story of a pickle covered in chocolate and sprinkles and put cravings. And then the following day it was, oh, Bonnie confirmed she's pregnant. Oh, Bonnie's comment on the fact she's pregnant. And I hadn't, like, there was already 10, 20, 30 articles saying I was pregnant. Even though I hadn't commented, I hadn't said anything. And that's obviously hurtful. Like, I was fine with it, but I knew I couldn't get pregnant. I knew I couldn't fall pregnant naturally. So that obviously wasn't very nice. And then I think like 48 hours after that, I did a YouTube video and just said, look, hey, I'm not pregnant. I upload one video of a pickle. The journalists seem to think it's okay to make stories up about a woman and a woman's body without understanding my situation.

[Louise Perry]

Sensitive for you?

[Bonnie Blue]

Yeah, for sure. And I can't get pregnant and I'm gonna use this money. And I have paid for two people's IVF journal since then.

[Louise Perry]

Do you think I remember thinking when you did the thousand, that the most reliable contraception on the market, which is the Marina iud, has a one in a thousand failure rate. Right? But I guess if you know that actually you can't conceive naturally, it doesn't cross your mind, even though, I mean, obviously the men wear condoms.

[Bonnie Blue]

It's not impossible.

[Louise Perry]

Condoms fail.

[Bonnie Blue]

Yeah, for sure it's not impossible, but yeah, the chances would be beyond slim.

[Chris Williamson]

If there's less than one in a.

[Bonnie Blue]

Thousand, then, yeah, it'd be beyond slim for me to. To sort of fall pregnant. So, yeah, that's where the whole. The whole pregnancy thing came from. And that's what I said would be sort of be too far. And even that I got backlash when I. I then went and did a bit of a press, you know, I think went to Daily Mail and a few other articles for the places and just did some general press. I think I was heading to spring break shortly after that. And I. Then they asked me about the pregnancy and there was like, why do you think it was okay to upload a photo of Pickle even though the Daily Mail had already uploaded an article prior to that saying I was pregnant? And I was like, so it's okay for you to say it and apparently confirm I'm pregnant, but then when I upload a photo of Pickle, I'm the one in the wrong. I then mentioned about the IVF journey and the woman was like, we should have just done that without ever uploading the photo of the Pickle. And I've said many times, you don't have to be charitable. If I want to burn the money on clothes and whatever I want, I will, but if I also want to help someone out, I'll do that as well. And that's when I. I think I became very aware of no matter what good I do, it will always be twisted. Even that was put in a very negative light.

[Chris Williamson]

I'm interested in that particular area of sensitivity.

[Bonnie Blue]

Yeah.

[Chris Williamson]

And. And you've had varying levels of strength of accusation that you're a psychopath or on other corners of X, that you're possessed by demons.

[Bonnie Blue]

Yeah.

[Chris Williamson]

Would you say the reason I asked and kept on pushing about and what did you feel was to try and get that embodied sense from you as somebody who doesn't seem to have much discussed sensitivity? Very. Yeah. The tail end, LeBron James of sociosexuality on the far side. What. How would people have described you as a kid? Would you. Were you an emotional girl?

[Bonnie Blue]

Not emotional in terms of crying loads and like, really upset. But I've always been really happy. Like, and I've recently. Which has been wrong for me to say, like, oh, I'm not emotional, but it's because every time I say I'm not emotional, I'm referring to me crying and being upset. And it's because I live a very easy, happy life. So it's very easy for me to sit here and say I'm not. I'm not emotional. But.

[Chris Williamson]

But referring to negative emotions.

[Bonnie Blue]

Well, emotion, being happy and smiling. And laughing. That's also. So I am emotional. Like my. I've had the best sort of two weeks of my life and I continue to have the best days I've ever experienced. And I'm very happy and very smiley. But a lot of the time that's not shown in like podcasts and interviews because I'm usually being interrogated, I'm being told I'm disgusting, I'm having to defend myself. So of course I'm not gonna be sat there smiling and laughing. But if you was to watch me, you know, when I'm at spring break and I'm meeting people, I'm nothing but smiling and happy. So people like to pick and choose which parts they analyze me. Or some of them will say I blinked after I said a certain word, so that means X, Y and Z. Or I looked a certain way and it's like, you know, I probably said something in my eye or I got twitchy or I got bored. Like, people think too much into things, but I am an emotional person, but not in terms of crying.

[Chris Williamson]

The reason I ask is I wonder how formative those 18 months of trying to get pregnant were. And it does seem like a bit of an inflection point in your life. And maybe this is just part of a marriage that wasn't right and a bunch of things coalesced at the same time. Maybe you did get some sort of realization. Maybe this was one realization that caused. Caused a bunch of different torpedoes to be fired at different areas of your life. I'm going to do in terms of a career what I'm going to do in terms of a future. I'm going to see myself as my level of sexual openness by current partner. All of that together, plus I would never ever lie about pregnancy to me showed potentially laid an explanation that how much of this is the blast radius of fuck. I really wanted kids and it turned out that I couldn't get them. And I'm now coping.

[Bonnie Blue]

Yeah, I completely see that. But I. If I wanted to be with my ex, I could have been. If I then wanted to get pay for ivf, I'm in a situation where I could pay for it for myself now. So if it was, I was still doing this because I'm trying to pay for IVF or I'm wanting my ex back. Like, I'd completely agree, but I couldn't get the divorce through quicker and I'm not in a situation at the moment I don't want children. I was so fixated back then because I was actually Missing happiness in my life. I think I'm to a certain degree grateful I didn't fall pregnant because my life would have been very different. And as much as children bring a lot of happiness for me, I think I was more doing it because all my friends was. I just got married. Everyone was asking me a lot, including my family, like, like, when are you gonna, when you're gonna have children or when you start a family, viewers for yourself. And I think I just started to think, okay, I don't feel overly happy. What's missing? I was children really. It was having freedom, flexibility, traveling and doing all the things I wanted to do. But I kept thinking I was too old to do or oh, I've passed that now. Or I can't just go traveling around the world and go on crazy holidays. I've not got the money or I've not got the, the time for it.

[Louise Perry]

I presume that this period of trying to get pregnant was before you started camming.

[Bonnie Blue]

Yes.

[Louise Perry]

Do you think then that going into. Because you talked about how actually before then you had a low body count and actually you were pretty like sexually conservative. Do you think that learning about your infertility changed your whole attitude towards sex, made it more like a hobby? Because obviously that is the way that humans come into the world is through sex. It has, it's in. We were all conceived in that way, apart from ivf, you know, but that's a recent thing. So there is an obviously meaningful, consequential thing built into it. But if it can't lead to conception, do you think, do you think that's fed into your feeling that it's just a hobby? Doesn't matter, commoditize it, whatever.

[Bonnie Blue]

No, completely get where you're coming from. But I was never having sex, only on my ovulation days. I was only having sex on the days I thought I was going to conceive. So. So sex, even when I, you know, wasn't trying to get pregnant was a hobby with my partner. I did it just for the pleasure. So no, if I was only having sex prior to that, around ovulation, then yeah, I'd completely agree. But I don't think as much as it was hurtful and it was very difficult time when I tried to get pregnant, I don't think it's had any knock on effect. I mean, to a certain degree it has because it's made me, I guess, more sensitive towards the subject, which is why I'm so strong about. I wouldn't lie on it. And it's Made me want to help people because I think it's horrible that so many people try and some people, they've got six kids, they couldn't give a. They're not eating properly. They're, you know, they're tramps and they can still pop out kids. And then there's some people that would offer the most beautiful family and beautiful homes and they, they can't unfortunately have children. So I guess it made me more sensitive on the subject. But it's not left me then thinking, oh, I'll do sex as a hobby or change my opinion on sex. I don't think too deeply on some things. I take things as they are. Oh, this made me feel like this. Okay, great, well, I'm going to deal with it and then I move on. I don't drag emotions.

[Chris Williamson]

Ultimate Bayesian update. Think of that like just permanently upgrading your worldview. What, somebody that's dissecting the micro expressions of a porn star. Non. Typical. Why do you think people are fascinated by the Bonnie Blue question?

[Louise Perry]

I think it's because of your outlier status. You're so unusual, I mean, I guess in both senses that you are almost an outcast as well. Like you've chosen this, you've chosen to be the most hated woman in Britain. Your words. And yeah, I mean you say, you've said a few times in this conversation that you're not intelligent. I've heard you say that elsewhere. I think you're actually really intelligent.

[Bonnie Blue]

I am. But on things that, like you won't want me on a pub quiz. You won't. I don't, I'm not good at geography and all of that. Like. And there's loads of things about the world that I probably should know but I have no interest in.

[Louise Perry]

But you're very quick.

[Bonnie Blue]

Yeah. Like I'm. If you was to question me on sex and 18 year olds. The reason I never expert. Yeah, I am. Like it's because that's what I enjoy. That's what I do each day. But even with that, these loads I don't know and I don't pretend to know, but I get asked sometimes really intelligent questions. I think.

[Chris Williamson]

Think.

[Bonnie Blue]

Don't understand half the words you've just used. I don't know what's going off. But like I'm never claiming I know everything. Like I simply don't. Yeah.

[Louise Perry]

One of the things I've, I've, I've noticed in how you talk about people is that you'll, you'll be, you'll be so non judgmental about Say men being fat or all this kind of the physical stuff, et cetera. One group though that you do, you are consistently judgmental towards are lazy people. People. Yeah, people who don't work. Benefit scroungers, you know, that kind of.

[Bonnie Blue]

And they're the ones that complain about life the most. And I think you lazy get off and do something about it. Like unless your arms and legs are chopped off, you can probably get up and do something about it. And that goes for people, other people as well. Like if you're complaining about something, they're the ones that blame everyone else and they're unhappy, they're miserable and they take zero responsibility for it. Like I take responsibility for my actions and I have taken my life in my control. And even if I'm talking about to family or friends and they're complaining about something, I'm like, do something about it. Don't keep coming to me with the same issues because you're going to have a very blunt answer.

[Louise Perry]

You're a very high agency person.

[Bonnie Blue]

High agency, what does that mean?

[Louise Perry]

In that you, you set your mind to something and you just make it happen for sure. And a lot of people aren't like that. And I wonder, I mean, because so many people are interested in you because they see you as strange and that you confuse them. Do you feel the other way? Like do you ever struggle to empathize with why say some women really wouldn't want to have sex in the way that you do. Or some people are really upset by negative criticism. Or do you find more normal people confusing?

[Bonnie Blue]

No, because I'm actually so normal.

[Chris Williamson]

Sorry. Sorry Bonnie, I really need to stop you there. That's not true. True.

[Bonnie Blue]

Like asides from, you know, everything we've talked about.

[Louise Perry]

Yeah.

[Bonnie Blue]

My day to day life. You would be amazed like if you knew me. Say if you didn't have a phone, you didn't go on the Internet and you didn't know I did what I did and you just knew me as a person. You would never adult me as a person. Does this because I am surprisingly normal. I always say I'm just a girl. I'm actually very simple with what I enjoy. I'm not high maintenance money on.

[Louise Perry]

Because you've got so much like do you have really expensive tastes?

[Bonnie Blue]

I spend a lot on fashion. Like I really enjoy sort of the fashion side of things memories. Like I would sell every single item of clothing I have to make memories. Like I recently went to the Maldives and went snorkeling. It was the most beautiful experience. Like I'D always choose memories over anything materialistic. But it's hard to burn through so much money to be honest. So I save a lot.

[Chris Williamson]

I remember, look. Chelsea Ferguson. Do you remember her? I recognize the name AdmireMe VIP. She was the girl that founded that which was an early British competitor to OnlyFans.

[Bonnie Blue]

Oh, okay.

[Louise Perry]

Yeah.

[Chris Williamson]

Chelse Fergo. I'm dating myself a little bit here. But she was sort of the Geordie Shore world of this. She was huge on Snapchat and she was like a proto Bonnie Blue in one way. I'll never forget that she did a stunt that was her outside of her brand new four bed new build house in Darlington somewhere in the northeast of the uk. And there was a brand new range and a brand new Lambo in the front of the number plates. On both sides were Chells Fergo either some custom number plate. And it said all this from showing pictures of my fanny. Helped me put petrol in my Lambo at Miami Vop Shelsfogo. So the rage bait drive clicks through. Flash on lifestyle and that's in some ways more materialistic. I don't know if I've ever seen you flex wealth.

[Bonnie Blue]

Like I mean I've got a Ferrari and I posted that cause it was quite fun. Like the number plate spells porn. The seats say Bonnie Blue. The whole thing is blue.

[Chris Williamson]

You went very subtle with it.

[Bonnie Blue]

Yeah. Like it's. I mean it's like a work thing. Like if that gets spotted around, people take photos, you upload it online.

[Chris Williamson]

Okay. You know, business expenses.

[Bonnie Blue]

The first thing I asked was like does it fit through McDonald's drive thru? Since they've said no, I've never driven it. I've got no interest in it. I posted that. But aside from that, I don't like share a lot of the things that I sort of spend my money on. Like I want to post a bit more about fashion and, and clothes because I know if I was watching that as a girl I've been treed on. Oh how much? Like I'll go and drop on a shopping trip like 50k. And I don't think anything of it. It's just a normal shopping trip. Whereas that would have been a house deposit plus more when I was younger.

[Chris Williamson]

What do you reckon you'll net this year?

[Bonnie Blue]

A lot of money. A very comfortable living.

[Chris Williamson]

Can you get anywhere close in a range?

[Bonnie Blue]

No, but I live a nice life is what I would say.

[Louise Perry]

I've heard you say that. I think this is in the Channel 4 doc. So it would have been filmed a Little while ago that you were currently, you were at the time earning a million a month, and your goal was to earn 5 million a month.

[Bonnie Blue]

Yeah.

[Louise Perry]

And I thought, listen to that. Once you're at a million a month, like, what else? What are you going to spend the rest of that money on? It becomes just a numbers game at.

[Bonnie Blue]

That point, for sure. Like I've always said, I want to hit 5 million. I think I will hit 5 mil a month at some point. But if it came at a cost of my happiness, I'd stop. Because my life, ever since I started earning a certain bracket, didn't really change. Maybe when I went from, you know, 50k a month to 400, there was a big difference. And then 400 to the million, probably a bit, but. But even that, there wasn't much of a change. I don't have, like, yes, I have expensive taste, and I do burn through money quite quickly, but the main thing I want is just happiness and memories. And yes, you do need money for some memories. Like, some of the trips I went on was, you know, we hired the boat for the day and I didn't think anything of it or just a, yeah, of course I'll hide the boat. No, I don't want other people on the boat. I. I want it to myself. And things like that is what I'm beyond grateful for. I'm like. Like, if I was ever having a tough day, I'd look back at things like that and think, how lucky am I? And lucky is not always the best word, because no one's given me this, but I do just feel every day so lucky and so grateful to have the people around me I do. And the life I live. I don't know, I just. To most people, I live the most disgusting life. But to me, I couldn't wish for a more beautiful life.

[Chris Williamson]

Beautiful life, Louise.

[Louise Perry]

To each their own, I suppose. I believe you when you say that.

[Bonnie Blue]

It's just.

[Louise Perry]

It's just the wider effect, for sure.

[Bonnie Blue]

I think it helps that I'm selfish because I don't care. Like, you know, if someone's saying, look, you're having a really bad knockoff, in effect, you've ruined my marriage. I'll be putting on my flippers and snorkel and thinking, that's your problem.

[Louise Perry]

You never get that, like, tummy broiling, hands shaking, like, feeling. You never feel nervous, in conflict or those kind of physical sensations. If someone were to say something like that to you, you've ruined my life, Bonnie.

[Bonnie Blue]

No, I'd say, like, I'd Want to understand why? Maybe.

[Louise Perry]

But you'd be steady, like a. Yeah, top surgeon.

[Bonnie Blue]

It'd be more. Look, I'm gonna understand why, but it's not me. I didn't do it. The fact I don't know your name shows I didn't ruin your life. I didn't. There's something. There's a lack of. I think most things is communication. Like, if I've ruined your marriage, there's a lack of communication there. And I'm not saying that's every case, but for most things, whether that's friendships, your job's not worked, your relationship's not worked. It's simple. It's communication.

[Chris Williamson]

You were about to say. Can I ask.

[Louise Perry]

Can I ask a basic question? Why did you choose the name Bonnie Blue? Bonnie's quite an old lady name.

[Bonnie Blue]

I know. Yeah. I think it's quite nice. It's quite traditional. I wish I could tell you a really interesting story, but I just googled porn names and it was like a porn translator. Not trans. What's the word?

[Chris Williamson]

Generator.

[Bonnie Blue]

Yeah. And the word Bonnie Blue came up. You put. So I chose Bonnie. And then you chose one from the other side, and it was blue. But I never knew it was going to be like this. I thought I was going to be a cam girl. No one's going to know about it. But I love the name Bonnie Blue now. Like, it's, you know, I guess, quite catchy. It's very easy to remember. I love the color blue. Verbony is quite a traditional name. But, yeah, it was honestly thought within about two minutes, if that.

[Chris Williamson]

What do you think about people that call you a victim?

[Bonnie Blue]

A victim of what? Like these videos. I see women all the time on Tick Tock saying, oh, she was sexually assaulted as a child. Oh, she's been through all this. And I think you're. You think I'm sick. You're sick. You've just found a photo of me on Google from when I'm about 10, 11 years old, and then made up a sex. Sex story. You've made up that I've been sexually assaulted. Like, how disturbed are you to do that in your spare time? And the only TikTok I've seen that's really hurt me was a video got uploaded of this woman talking. And in the background was a photo of me and my granddad that passed away saying, oh, he sexually assaulted me as a child. And I think, why. Why would you ever look at a photo? You've gone out your way to find that. That. And then make up a story. And apparently I'm the disturbed one.

[Louise Perry]

So, yeah, it's some negative comments do get you.

[Bonnie Blue]

Only that because that went quite viral. It's when I like, only just sort of just started. And that made me really think, wow, I've really dragged my family through this because I chose to do this, but my family didn't.

[Chris Williamson]

Bonnie Blue's victim had status. Louise.

[Louise Perry]

No, I don't think you're a victim. Yeah, I think that most women in the sex industry are at least to some extent, like, it's a complicated combination. I do think that you're really unusual. But there is a problem though, right, with that most people don't know that. They can't tell that. The fact that you. It can be very difficult to tell at first glance the difference between, say, you and Nilly for. And you think, as I say, I.

[Bonnie Blue]

Say one smiles, one cries. I suppose so.

[Louise Perry]

But sometimes Ellie smiles. Some people can be really good at faking it, and some people as well. It can be when they're actually in. When they're in it, they get through by convincing themselves that it's okay. And they will sort of tell themselves a story. Almost like if you're in an abusive relationship and when you're in it, you'll be like, oh, he loves me, it's fine. And then it's only later when you've left it that you're able to realize quite how horrible it was. And that's quite a common story in the sex industry. I mean, do you think that there are women who aspire to be like you in terms of the wealth, in particular, women in the sex industry and who are putting themselves through trauma to try and compete with you, not realizing that they just don't have what it takes in terms of the psychology, I.

[Bonnie Blue]

Mean, I've seen it online before. There's obviously people crying. There's been people that have, you know, been hospitalized. Yeah. All of which then given credit because, you know, people see them being vulnerable and they're like, oh, my God, that person's crying or that person's gone to hospital. And then I get the hate because I'm not crying or not being hospitalized. And it is. It's not easy. Like I say, it's easy because it's easy for me because it comes very natural and I know my body limits, but I wouldn't necessarily recommend it to loads of people. It's. You've got to do what's best for you and you've got to focus on happiness because you could have all the money in the world you could have the biggest following. It's all honestly pointless if you aren't happy. So I don't think you should ever copy anyone else. And I think, think that's how I've been able to stay happy as well. Because no one's ever done what I've done that they've done it afterwards or try to. But I'm not following anyone. Like the things I'm even doing this month, no one's ever done before. So no, I'm not looking at.

[Chris Williamson]

What have you done this month?

[Bonnie Blue]

This month I've just had a Bonnie Blue Bang bus made and I'm starting off at Scotland, which is at the top of the country and working my way down and I'm going to visit loads of universities to the students.

[Chris Williamson]

Right.

[Bonnie Blue]

So on the road I'm not aware.

[Louise Perry]

Of anyone having done that before.

[Bonnie Blue]

Yeah, it honestly looks really cool. It's like a. You say blue, of course blue. It says Bonnie Blue on it. Bonnie Blue's Bang bus in really big writing.

[Chris Williamson]

Are there any legal ramifications about that?

[Bonnie Blue]

No. I mean my family.

[Chris Williamson]

Imagine you must have a shit up attorney law team for this.

[Bonnie Blue]

Not really, no. Like you're having. As long as I can park up. I mean people have sex in the car, don't they?

[Chris Williamson]

Not convinced that's legal.

[Louise Perry]

No.

[Bonnie Blue]

Well, maybe in the hotel or their dorm rooms they can invite me in.

[Chris Williamson]

I would get someone to check that first. I do think a strong legal counsel might be a good idea. Just. Well, my point being that I. Fucking hell.

[Bonnie Blue]

I have people check things over like before we do it as well. Because I understand, I like to reach limits. So I've got to fully understand where that limit is because everyone wants to arrest me. Everyone. Not the police, but everyone online's like, I phoned the police on it today. I've reported and I'm like, report me for what? Like oh my God, she slept with a barely legal. The second one and that is legal. So you're an idiot. But yeah, I do make sure everything I do is, is legal because I'd be the first person. Like I see some of the Tick Tocks or some of the social media other of girls or Fanzer Girls do to promote their socials. I think, God, if I'd have done that I'd been arrested instantly or I would have my socials taken.

[Louise Perry]

I think you get a harder time, you have more haters because you don't come across as a victim and because you never cry.

[Bonnie Blue]

That's why I get more hate yeah, I'm hate you.

[Chris Williamson]

Don't garner any sympathy. Sympathy is such a huge driving force. So much so that you saying I am not a victim. Victim of what? Has not managed to dispel people calling you a victim.

[Bonnie Blue]

Yeah. I think it's a shame because. Because so many people are victims and it's taken away from them. Like, focus on them, Help them, like, leave me, you know, I'm too far gone, as some people say. But I am not a victim of anything. I'm in control. And that scares people.

[Louise Perry]

I think a lot of people are desperate to think that you're a victim. A lot of women.

[Bonnie Blue]

Yeah.

[Louise Perry]

Because they are so disturbed at the thought that you actually like it.

[Bonnie Blue]

Yeah. And that is okay. But don't make up I'm a victim. Or don't make up sexual stories from when I was a child. Like, mm, it's fucked up.

[Chris Williamson]

Is there anything that you still don't understand about Bonnie?

[Louise Perry]

I think that you're a marvel of science. We might. Yeah. I mean, I'm sure. Cause I'm sure there's something. We were talking earlier about this scan, right. Where you can check, you know, your cortisol levels and all this sort of stuff to understand the chemistry of your psychology. I mean, I would guess I'd love you to do a big five personality test. If you've never done one, why is that?

[Bonnie Blue]

That?

[Louise Perry]

It's like the gold standard of psychometric testing for personality. So it's things like your conscientiousness, I would guess. Really industrious.

[Chris Williamson]

I was gonna say do a. Do a Some of these words.

[Bonnie Blue]

I don't know what you say yet.

[Chris Williamson]

It's okay. Well, Louise will be able to translate, bring it down to earth, do a big five analysis just based on my guess.

[Bonnie Blue]

Yeah.

[Louise Perry]

Okay. So there are five facets, obviously.

[Bonnie Blue]

Can I add in the fact I love animals? Does that affect her?

[Louise Perry]

Yeah, maybe.

[Chris Williamson]

I don't think there's a dimension for loving animals, but it probably.

[Bonnie Blue]

And I don't mean bestiality, before that gets posted. I mean, like, I love animals.

[Louise Perry]

So the five facets are openness to experience. I think you're off the charts.

[Chris Williamson]

I'm 100 percentile.

[Louise Perry]

Yeah, conscientiousness. So, meaning, like, your. How hard you work, like, showing up on time, being really diligent. Again, off the charts. Extroversion.

[Bonnie Blue]

What does that mean?

[Louise Perry]

You tell me. Like, how do you get exhausted from talking to people all day? Or could you just talk all day?

[Bonnie Blue]

No, I could talk. I get sometimes bored of answering the same question. That I did an interview yesterday and it was the same. Oh, your family don't love you. Your family, this family that. I'm like, look, I'm generally bored of it. Like, I can understand why you'd think it, but, like. So I sometimes get bored of answering the same things. Like, I love that. These questions, they've been very different. Usually I sound like a robot. And it's probably why I become so switched off. Because as soon as you start the question, usually I already know the answer.

[Chris Williamson]

Drop into the scripted thing I've said five times before.

[Louise Perry]

Yeah. So I think probably you are extroverted. At least. At least quite extroverted.

[Bonnie Blue]

Yeah.

[Louise Perry]

Agreeable. No, I think you're deeply, deeply disagreeable. And that's part of the reason why. So agreeableness is like your. How much you worry about other people's feelings, how selfless you are, how. How much you're willing to sort of put other people for yourself. I think, again, we're off the charts in the other direction and neurotic. You're probably the least neurotic person I've ever spoken to.

[Bonnie Blue]

What does that mean?

[Louise Perry]

Like, your sensitivity to negative feelings, things you worry about, things. How depressed you get. I mean, you're, as you say, you're just happy all the time. Just kind of happy.

[Bonnie Blue]

I know everyone thinks I honestly, I see many, many videos like, she must be so depressed. She must be so unhappy. And I'm like, I'm. I'm not. And I know people think I fake it. And, you know, I could be lying to you, but I'm a very good liar, if.

[Louise Perry]

So.

[Bonnie Blue]

Yeah. And I'm. I'm not like, I wish, I guess, more people could see my life outside of it, but. But it's not always shown. I don't always have time to show it, but I do wanna, I guess, make an effort more so to show what happens when I'm not filming or what happens when I'm not Bonnie Blue or when I'm out in public, that I'm not this massively hated person.

[Chris Williamson]

Given the little logic puzzles that we've stepped through today, on what basis can someone condemn what Bonnie does? Given the world that we're in. In.

[Louise Perry]

Well, given the world that we're in. Yeah. I don't think that you can condemn Bonnie Blue if you're in generally in favor of sexual liberation and the free market and just letting all this stuff rip. I don't think you can. I think you just have to accept that Bonnie has followed all this stuff through to the logical endpoint and is and is winning that game. Yeah, if you. I mean, it doesn't bother, it doesn't worry me because I've already thought for years and have always said that actually sexual liberation has some really serious costs, as does letting the free market rip and so on. So, yeah, I've really enjoyed talking to you and you're really likable person.

[Bonnie Blue]

Same. I like how you're, you know, you don't agree with what I do, but you're very open to listening because I've had. I always say you don't have to agree. It's not my job to convince you and I. I'm not bothered. But I always really appreciate when someone can just listen to my side because I'm not just some blonde porn star that's got no brain cells. Like, I'm not overly intelligent, but. But I can explain and the justify is probably not the correct word because I don't need to justify. But I can explain why I do what I do and why I believe it's acceptable and why it's not damaging. So it's always good to have people that can listen. I'm not saying you're now gonna be queuing up and I won't lend you a blue ski mask just yet, but it's nice to have an open conversation.

[Chris Williamson]

I want to try and finish up by getting you guys to Steel man the cases for the other side. You know what that is? Steel Manning. So, you know, strawman, it's. I take your argument. I make the weakest version out of it. Ok. Steel Manning is taking the other side and making the strongest version for that case. So if you could think of the biggest trade off or downside of your worldview being successful, if your perspective and lifestyle was sort of more widely adopted, what would be the most negative externalities? What's the best case? That is anti Bonnie Blue. And I guess, Louise, you might be able to start and do what is the best case that's pro Bonnie Blue. And also, what are the negative externalities of if you were successful with what you want to have happen?

[Louise Perry]

Yeah. So if I had my way, I would like criminalize most of what you do and you wouldn't have all this money. Right.

[Bonnie Blue]

So obviously personally gangbags in prison.

[Louise Perry]

Well, but not for money. So that's obviously like a personal cost for you. I guess also that maybe it is true that for some men, access to porn reduces their sexual aggression towards other women or reduces the chances of them going to bisexual women in prostitution. So maybe, I mean, I've never really seen that case made strongly, but I think I said earlier in the conversation that if that were true that it did actually reduce sexual violence, I would accept it as being the worst of the options. Yeah, sorry, the better of bad options.

[Bonnie Blue]

I think sometimes it's hard though because people think it's either got to be A or baby be. It's not always gotta be the case. Sometimes for one person something works and the other person it doesn't. Or we try and say, okay, porn is better to cancel it, but sometimes it's not. Like everyone tries to make you fit in a box and sometimes things are one or the other or sometimes it might depend on what day it is and like you don't have to pinpoint yourself to one or the other.

[Chris Williamson]

What is the best case argument against Bonnie Blue and the world that she wants that you can think of?

[Bonnie Blue]

I mean, for me, I'm already in it. I get to do what I want and no one can stop me, basically. But one of the main things I want is people that do pay for porn do pay for sex workers or they are q in for people to be more open minded about and that they're not disgusting, they're not desperate, they're not here to hurt anybody. They are genuinely lovely people. So that would be the biggest thing I would love to happen.

[Chris Williamson]

No. What would be the case against.

[Bonnie Blue]

Against.

[Chris Williamson]

Yeah. So Louise's position of, of anti porn would criminalize, would monetize. If you were to make the argument for that, is there something where you think, okay, this is the best way that I could justify what Louise is saying? Can you see the other side?

[Bonnie Blue]

Yeah, like, I mean, I think a lot more restrictions should be added. Like it's. This was done by a professional. Either speak to the person, it should be like a clause beforehand. I think it's hard because I think a lot of porn is very heavily regulated and the amount of consent forms and IDs you've got to upload, but as a whole, just greater education.

[Louise Perry]

I think you do see that complete wild west porn is bad even if the individuals are consenting. Do you think that there's a cultural harm done if we had completely let rip, you know, watch it at any age, watch anything you want. Do you think that there would be a significant downside from that?

[Bonnie Blue]

Yes. Yeah, I don't think it should be any age. But at the same time people are watching porn a lot younger than 18 and it's. They're also having sex. So, you know, you could stop watching porn I mean you could. They make so many restrictions. You can only watch, watch porn once you're 18. They're probably having sex those younger than that though. So who's educating them on them younger years. And I'm not saying porn's the best place to educate them, but something needs to fill that gap.

[Chris Williamson]

I have got an example that brings this into sort of my area of expertise, which is bro science. And I'm gonna talk about fake natties. Do you know what that is? It's not to do with boobs. It is guys who are in the fitness industry and have achieved a very admirable physique and claim that they haven't done it without performance enhancing drugs. But they have used performance enhancing drugs. Fake naturals, fake natties. What the argument against fake natties, and specifically the sort of ethical argument is these men are creating an unrealistic expectation of what can be achieved naturally, which inevitably means that any guy who tries to do what they do feels inferior. They're going to fall short. The costs of trying to do what this person has done with PEDs is unattainable. Therefore saying that you didn't use them is giving them a false sense of hope. Also, if you then come out and say that you did use drugs, there's often an accusation that this person is now encouraging the use of testosterone because they have an admirable physique in this person. The downstream effect of using hormones on yourself as a guy. I wonder whether you are kind of not the fake natty because you're completely open about it, but you are the testosterone hyper responder of the sex world, which is your results may vary and bonies are the most outlier that you're going to have. Most guys, most women would not be able to sort of run the cycle that you have, as in run the testosterone performance enhancing drug cycle and survive in the same way that you have have. Most girls would not be able to live the life that you do. And I think when we're talking about like without exaggeration, a 1 in 3.5 billion outlier. Lots of people would ask the question, does it make women want to emulate her or warn them off of her behavior, not do it. But the issue is you are so non representative. There is no warning those people off because there's no negative externalities that happen within this system that is you. Does that make sense?

[Louise Perry]

Yeah, yeah.

[Chris Williamson]

I tried to bring fake natties into.

[Bonnie Blue]

This, but no, I get it though. Like the good thing is I'm very transparent. I'm very open.

[Louise Perry]

And I don't think you're transparent about how weird you are.

[Chris Williamson]

Yes, I would agree with.

[Louise Perry]

You did say earlier. Yeah, because you did say earlier, I'm really normal. I swear, I'm really normal.

[Bonnie Blue]

Honestly, anyone, like, so a lot of people that either work with me or my friends, when people that know they either work with me or they know me, one of the first questions they get asked is, oh, my God, what's she like? And they're like, she is surprisingly normal.

[Chris Williamson]

But you're surprisingly normal. This is exactly the same as me talking about Jon Jones, or actually not Jon Jones. That's a bad example. Tom Aspinall, who's going to be UFC champion, and go, he's a normal guy. You know, he sits down, he eats dinner, he plays with his kids, he does the thing. It's like, yeah, but he also beats people up that are over £200 for a living. Like, this guy has a very specific skill set within a very narrow domain. And. And yeah, he's normal outside of that, but is also within that a world champion. So I think I would encourage you to check your thinking, for want of a better term, on, I am not that weird, because nobody else, you've already said yourself, nobody else has been able to do what you can do. The people that are trying to go in your path, this is the same as you having unbelievable natural strength and being able to squat. There's a guy who recently broke the deadlift record. No one else on the planet has ever been able to do that. And somebody else trying to do that will snap themselves in half trying to chase it. He is a 1 in 3.5 billion human, and I do think that creates an odd sense of the cost that other people would pay if they were to try and do the same thing. For sure, because you do not deal with the situation in the same way, largely, you're inhuman in the way that you are dealing with, with what is going on here.

[Bonnie Blue]

That is, I think, I guess, fair. It'd be easier if I did struggle a bit and I could open up and say, look, it comes at this cost. It comes at me crying myself to sleep at night. It comes at my family are, you know, upset with me, and I'm dealing with physical issues, but that isn't the case. Like, for me, it really has been an easy ride. And. But I do always like to try and make it as clear as possible. This is not normal for most people. I. I am a normal girl, but in terms of the way I deal with it and the way I've able to. To manage it all. Yeah. To a certain degree isn't normal. And I don't have any tips, as much as I wish I could say, look, if you do want to do this, here's some tips on how to manage it or how to be successful in it, because I don't know, I just.

[Chris Williamson]

You were just constructive.

[Bonnie Blue]

I just had built for this sort of thing. I just made Prep.

[Louise Perry]

Yeah, the LeBron James are porn.

[Chris Williamson]

Yeah.

[Louise Perry]

Yeah.

[Chris Williamson]

Louise and Bunny. Thank you very much. It's been really, it's been really interesting to see. I do, I wish, I don't, I don't wish that I could have come away from it and said, and, you know, I saw the second set of eyelids open and close or, you know, there was something in there that showed she was being contrived or seemed to be playing some sort of a game. And that is where the fascination, I think, and the questions will continue because it is easier for people to assume that there is something being hidden than holy fuck. I just do not have a model for how this person's mind works in this way. And if it was probably any other industry that wasn't so heavily moralized, I think people would be fascinated, but for different reasons. They would be fascinated in the same way that a chess grandmaster or an elite strength athlete or a psychopath killer or anyone that's like, I have no understanding of how this person's mind works, but because it is wrapped up in some bravado, a lot of exposure, and a very heavily moralized, private thing that's now been commercialized and made public. Yeah, you are the reductio ad absurdum of the sexual revolution.

[Louise Perry]

I guess you're the spirit of the age.

[Bonnie Blue]

Seeing my brain, honestly is not much going off the best of times. It's a very simple brain. But yeah, and I sort of get what you mean. You can't walk away going, you know what? I completely saw Bonnie's side. Or actually I saw a different side of her. Like, yeah, you would have seen a different side of him slightly. But. But it's as a whole, I'm just a nice person. I'm always open for a conversation and I'm not going to come in and go, you know what? I want to fuck all your camera crew and I'm going to turn this into a gang.

[Chris Williamson]

Please don't, please don't, please don't.

[Bonnie Blue]

And what's the big table for? But I will make jokes and remarks, but I don't just walk around having sex with people. I don't just, you know, instantly bend over or assume I'm having sex each day. It's.

[Chris Williamson]

I get asked all the time for book suggestions. People want to get into reading fiction or nonfiction or real life stories. And that's why I made a list of 100 of the most interesting and impactful books that I've ever read. These are the most life changing reads that I've ever found. And there's descriptions about why I like them and links to go and buy them. And it's completely free. And you can get it right now by going to chriswillx.combooks that's chriswillx.com books.

[Bonnie Blue]

As a whole. It's, to a certain degree, two people.

[Chris Williamson]

Well, thank you for coming on. I appreciate you both.

[Bonnie Blue]

Thanks for having me.

[Louise Perry]

Thank you.